Latest / Trumponomics / Forget Oil. Religion Is Big Business in Saudi Arabia

Transcript

Forget Oil. Religion Is Big Business in Saudi Arabia · Trumponomics

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia may be best known for its vast supply
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: of oil, but outside of that industry, tourism is one
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: of the kingdom's biggest businesses. Now, we're not talking about
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: sun and sand, even though they do have plenty of
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: those things. As the home of Mecca, the kingdom is
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: the destination for the annual Hajj pilgrimage that attracts more
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: than two million Muslims a year. That, along with other
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Muslim pilgrimages throughout the year, have been driving growth in
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: tourism with a building boom to match. Today on Benchmark,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: we'll talk with a colleague who will share his recent
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: experience there, and we'll discuss why religious tourism is becoming
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: an increasingly important part of the Saudi economy. I'm Scott Landman,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: an economics editor with Bloomberg in Washington. My co host
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Dan Moss is traveling this week. Now, you may have
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: heard some new about Saudi Arabia lately. It's letting women
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: get driver's licenses for the first time. We'll get to
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: that later with Donna Abu Nasser, a Bloomberg reporter who
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: covers the Middle Eastern economy and governments, but first, I'd
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: like to bring in Siraj Dtu. He's an editor for
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com based in London. He participated in the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Hajj in late August, making the pilgrimage to Mecca with
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: his wife and is here to talk about his experience
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: and how Hajj has become an economy unto itself. Siraj,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me So, Siraj,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know much about Hajj except I've seen it
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: on TV people circling the Kabba, heard about some other
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: things associated with it. Can you give us a little
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: background on Hajj, what it means, why people do it,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: and why it's such a central part of Islam. Sure. So.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Hodge is one of the five main pillars in Islam,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and it's reference in the Kuran, and most Mussims typically
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: believe that they have to perform the pilgrimage at least
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: once in their lifetime as long as they can afford it.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: And one of the moments during huge as you've mentioned,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: it's like typically captured on camera more than anything else
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: is is the taff and as you said, that's when
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Mussims circumambulate the carver seven times, and that's an essential part.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: And the reason that I think it's shown on cameras
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: so often is pretty obvious. It's one of the moments
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: that's got the most easily explained symbolism. The cover is
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: it's been destroyed and rebuilt countless times, but it's still
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: believed to be the house of God. And that's the
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: direction that Muslims praying wherever they are in the world.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: And so whenever Mussim's gone holiday and I'll take a
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: compass with them so they know which way Mecca is,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: they know which which direction they should pray in. There
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: are lots of other elements too, So pilgrims walk between
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: two mountains, Suffer and Marrowa seven times. Now. The big
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: difference now is that the mountains don't exist anymore. There
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: are little replicas there, and actually pilgrim's walk inside and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the comfort of air conditioning, it's not so much the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: same as it was before. Pilgrims also spend time near
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Mount Arfa and Reflection of Garden. They sleep on stones
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: essentially in Modelifa. They spend some time in Mina and
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: there's a lot that gets packed into just a few days. Well,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: it does sound really remarkable. Can you just tell us
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: a little bit about your experience and kind of the
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: size and scope of what you witness and what's happening there. Sure.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: So for a lot of pilgrims, it begins in Medina.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: It's exciting. Not everyone goes to Medina, but most people
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: try to because it's where the prophet used to live,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: It's where the Prophet's mosque is. One of the other
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: reasons it's exciting is that there are so many Muslims
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: all in one place, and there's this amazing sense of unity.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: You got Muslims from around the world, and when you
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: go and pray at the property mosque, you meet people
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: from and I'm just giving an example of the people
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I met from Somalia, from India, from uh I think.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I think I met people from at different half different
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: countries in Africa, from Iran and Iraq, Afghanistan, and you
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: just become one big community. And that's just Medina. And
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: while Medina gets busy, Marca, where the carbra Is, gets packed.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: This year, about two and a half million Muslims took
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: part in Hudge, and about one point seven five million
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: of them came from outside the country and one of
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: the most amazing things I learned when I was there
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: is that there are some areas in Mecca which are
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: pretty much just set up for the Hudge period. So,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: for example, the group that I went with when I
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: was there, we didn't stay in a hotel. We stayed
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: in a big apartment block in Azizia, which is a
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: district not too far away from the Carba. What I
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: learned is that the rest of the year, when the
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: pilgrims aren't there for Hudge, the building is just empty.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: And that's actually the case for a lot of the
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: buildings in that area. The economy in that area is
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: really just geared up for Pilgrims. And here's another example
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: of the scale of the pilgrimage. I typically try to
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: go out to the carb in the evenings because during
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: the daytime it was so hot it's kind of burning.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: And one day, you know, we pray it the cover
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: for a few hours and then we've got to eat
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and we've got a huge selection. What do we want
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: to eat. We've got five guys Halal, five guys which
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: we don't have in London. We've got huge hotels around
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: there too. One day we went to eat and came
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: back after eating in the whole complex in the carvers,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: the Grand Mosque was totally full, and the pilgrims are
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: kind of spilling out into the streets and the prayers
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: since she stretched out about kilometer up the road, it's
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: a huge number of people trying to just get to
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: the carver and pray all, you know, for that one prayer.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: It does truly sound like a unbelievably huge event with
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: you know, you can only begin to imagine the number
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: of ball you start to talk a little bit about
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: the economic scale of what's going on here. Can you
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: just talk a little bit about how this has become
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: such a big business and you know there are people
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: have been coming there for generations and centuries. Why is
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: there such a building boom now to accommodate people? Like
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: you said, this is big business for Saudi So, speaking
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: ahead of this year's pilgrimage, the head of Mecca's Chamber
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: of Commerce and Industry said he expected pilgrims to spend
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: between twenty billion reals during hug. That's around five and
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: a half to six and a half billion dollars. It's
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of money. The Saudis are also giving this
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: income stry more of a deliberate purch so they're spending
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: about eighty billion dollars on renovating Macca. That includes expanding
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the complex of the Grand Mosque and trying to renovate
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: the surrounding areas to One of the things that happened
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: in recent years is no pilgrim can get a visa
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: for hudge without coming through a tour group, and equally
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the tour groups have to make sure they arrange accommodation.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Part of that stand to safety. They don't want people
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: sleeping the streets, especially when it gets so hot. But
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: it helps revenue too, and so there's been a very obvious,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: fierce battle to construct new hotels. Let me give you
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: one example, there are about sixty hotel rooms in Mecca.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: By the following year it jumped up by fifty five.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And beyond the more obvious revenue streams, there's another benefit.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Foreigners can't own land, and so any hotelier has to
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: work with local Saudi developers. And when you go for
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: HUDG two, you obviously have different elements that you're paying for.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: You're you're paying for your flights, you're paying for the
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: accommodation in all the different places you're staying in. But
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: when you go, you also bring back gifts. Some people
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: spend thousands and thousands of pounds and dollars just on
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: gifts to take back for family. They take back prayer beats,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: prayer mats, anything they can get their hands on, really
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: kind of like the longer Arabic clothes. And when people
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: come back, you know that there's there's somewhat of a
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: there's somewhat of an except aation that you're going to
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: bring something back for your family. If you don't, people
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: are wondering, you know, have you really gone for Hudge.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: You've gone there and you thought about your relationship with
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: God and how you've tried to detach from this world,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and then you kind of not brought anything back and
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: people start, you know, asking questions, where where's my gifts?
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: And you don't want to be that person who has
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: not come back with a gift, even if it's something small.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I think my wife and I it was it was
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: an expensive trip, so we spent about seven thousand pounds
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: for both of us to go there, and I think
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: we tried to keep our gifts to a minimum about
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: five pounds each. But some people do spurn, like I said,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of pounds just bring back gifts of
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: their family. Are these kind of a local things that
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: are made there? Are they sort of trinkets that come
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: are made in China. It's it's a mix, I think
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: from what I saw a lot of the things that
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: were made were from partly downe from partly made in China,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: partly made in Turkey. A lot of the prayer mats
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: actually they have. It's it's a bit weird to say
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: something's a revolutionary prayer mat, but these the kind of
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: things that we saw. So for example, when you're at
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the Carba and the Grand Mosque, the whole floor is
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: made of marble, which can be quite tough on your
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: knees for the whole time. But there was one prayer
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: map that we bought for our time there and essentially
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: folds up so when you when you pray, you can
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: fold it down and pray, and when you're not praying,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: you can fold up and you can lean back against
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: it and it kind of becomes a chair. And it's
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: like small things like this that you know, people will
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: pay easy money for some money, you know, I think
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: that was that cost us about ten pounds, but it
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: felt totally worth it when you were then you definitely
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: have a captive audience there. Definitely also sounds like a
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: real global event. And let's talk about the economy some more.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: There I want to bring in Donna Abu Naser. Donna
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: is a reporter based in Beirut covering Middle Eastern economies
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and governments, but she's very familiar with Saudi Arabia. She
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: started covering the country for the Associated Press in two
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: thousand two and opened a piece first bureau in the
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: nation in Riad in two thousand eight. Donna, thanks for
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: returning to the podcast today. Pleasure to be here. Donna,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: can you tell us how tourism and especially Islamic tourism
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: fits into the overall Saudi economy and just how they're
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: trying to wean their dependence off of oil there well,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: tourism has been earmarked by the government as a major
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: driver for growth in a plan if you recall, to
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: diversify the economy. It was rolled out last year. It's
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: called Vision twenty thirty and um it's coming at the
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: time when crewit prices are about half their peak. That
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: ended more than a decade of prosperity. So religious tourism,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: both the main one Hush that Sia talked about and Dombra,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: which is a lesser pick image performed throughout the year.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Our key to this. Now, the aim of the vision
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: is to increase the number of Hombre prams to thirty
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: million a year by twenty thirty. And it's important to
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: note here that financial benefits will not only come from
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the money that the victims spend. Pilgrims like for instance,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: um As more of them visit the Kingdom. More airports
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: and ports and hotels and roads will need to be developed,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: so that means more employment and investment opportunities. So you
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: said thirty million tourists per year for the for the
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: Umbra is the goal? Yeah, by and what is it now?
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: I think it's about it reached about eight million in
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. That was after the expansion of the two
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: holy mosques that Si Rah talked about. So we're talking
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: about a real growth industry like no other. I mean,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: if you're if you're going to be almost quadrupling the
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: number of tourists, I mean that really shows a strong
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: desire by the kingdom and leadership to you know, not
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: be so dependent on oil, like you were talking about. Now,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: another thing in the news recently was that, you know,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: most of us noticed the announcement that the ban on
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: women driving cars was going to be lifted next year.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Can you give us a sense on how that recent
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: decision fits into all this liberalization of the economy? Um,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: of course, I mean, at first, it's the right many
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: women have been fighting for. But as women are are
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: entering the workforce in larger numbers, uh, they need to
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: be able to get to the office. Women spend a
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: big chunk of their income on drivers, something like an
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: average of five dollars a month. So this is disposable
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: income that will be released into the economy and it
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: will stay in the country as opposed to leaving it
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: in the form of remittances. You know, most women have
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: foreign drivers who send money back home. So this will
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: potentially help the retail sector, which has suffered a lot
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: in the past couple of years with the oil With
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: the low oil prices, there could also be a short
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: boost in car sales, and demand for car insurance and
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: loans is likely to increase. Is there a way for
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia to maintain its ultra conservative image and be
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: this destination for Muslim tourism while at the same time
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: opening its economy, liberalizing such cultural norms as these, and
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: and being less dependent on oil. Um. It's Saudi Arabia
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: is the birthplace of Islam. The king is the custodian
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: of Islam's two holiest mosques, so the Kingdom has always
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: been careful that it's Islamic credentials are not questioned. When
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: the Kingdom said it will allow women to drive, and
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: this has been the most dramatic move so far, and
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: it's a bit to open up this Saudi society. It
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: was important to show that the decision had the backing
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: of the religious establishment, and indeed many prominent clerics and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the Kingdom stopped religious body commended the order while highlighting
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: at the same time they need to abide by Islamic requirements. Sage,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: can you jump in here. I'm curious as to what
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: you saw on the ground there with you know, the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: millions of Muslims that came to Saudi Arabia for Hajj.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Did this strike you as a very religious segment of
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Islam or their a mix of kind of less religious
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: and more religious people there. I mean what would you
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: say you found and do you think that could be sustained,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: you know, as Saudi opens up some more, I think
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: what you find is that there's a real mix of people.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, every Mussen believes they have to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: go at least once, and so they try and make
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the journey once in their lifetime. Someone trying to go earlier,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: someone trying to go later. But a lot of people
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: go because they feel they have to. Now, when you're
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: going around the kaba, what you hear is la la
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: la la la. There's no God but Allah. You hear
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of people reciting praises of God. But that's
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: because of where you are. And now outside of that conversation,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: you know, you speak to people and ask people why
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: you here. Some people say it's because they want to
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: get that sense of connection with God they don't have before.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And what you what you find is that there's a
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: lot of people who especially those from the West. So
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I came with a group from London and everyone had
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: very different views. Some people are a lot more traditional,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: some people a more liberal. There are a lot of
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: people in my group, for example, we're talking about how
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: when you're at the Carbo. When it gets to prayer time,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: all the women are kind of hush and pushed back,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and the guards and religious gods come and essentially tell
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: them to stand up and move back or move on
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: to higher floors. A lot of the men get get
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: angry because that's not what we see normally in our
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: masks back in kind of in the West, whereas a
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: lot of people who seem local or at least speak
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Arabic kind of a siding with the religious gods. It's
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: a bit hard to have those conversations within the within
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: the Grand Mosque, But when you're outside of it and
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: you're just speaking to people normally, a lot of these
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: conversations are taking place about how the country could perhaps
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: change to be a little bit more westernized, or perhaps
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: to fit in with what we feel our values, what
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: we feel our Islamic values in the West. Now, when
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I was looking at the Hajj statistics, I noticed the
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: breakdown between men and women. It looked like it was
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: somewhere around women in that range, but still I'm still surprised.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a large amount of women and sarage.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: You know, you you went with your wife, and it
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: seemed like there are many couples who go there. Would
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the liberalization of say, Saudi driving rules maybe attract more women.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Is that part of the growth strategy to attract more
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: women in Islamic tourism in Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't be
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: able to speak to to that, but I mean, one
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: of the main reasons that I can think of immediately
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: that would actually stop women from going is that any
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: woman who's under forty has to go with a companion,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: a male companion, and so there's they wouldn't get a
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: visa to enter the country if they don't have someone
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: who's a direct relationship, who's a direct relation of some kind.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So a lot of women have to go with a cousin,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: or they have to go with a father or a brother.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: They can't just go by themselves. And so one way
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that if the Saudis really did want to bring in
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: more women is they could scrap that rule. Now, whether
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: they will do that is something to be seen. Um
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: When we were there, for example, you know, we would
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: take a lot of taxis. I don't think anybody or
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: any pilgrims at the very least would think of the
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: driving ban as affecting their religious experience so much because
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: no one's gonna be renting cars, and if you're going
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: with the tour group, the last thing you want to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: be thinking about is trying to figure out the roads,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: because when you are out in Saudi for hug the
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: roads get crazy, see and that you have no idea
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: which road is going to get blocked, which road is,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: which bridge is going to get blocked, and which road
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: you could actually drive through. When we went, for example,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: we would take a kareem, which is a bit like
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: uber but I guess it was started in Dubai, and
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: we would be going, for example, from our hotel and
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: as easier to the carver, and sometimes we would get
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: to a certain tunnel that would take you right to
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: the carver, and only the taxis were allowed and the
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: kareams weren't, so I think in that respect, and I'm
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: not sure that the driving ban itself is actually gonna
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: help or liberalize who actually goes for for Hodge. All right,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: one last question. Another thing I've heard about with the
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Hajje is that a lot of people have actually died
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: going to it. There have been stampedes that have killed
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: many people. How did safety factor into your trip that's
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: actually a pretty good question. So, like I said, Mussims
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: believe they have to go once in their lifetime, so
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the take whatever opportunity they can to go, and in
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of countries they have to wait a long
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: time to take Indonesia, for example, the country which has
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: the largest Muslim population in the world, their citizens can
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: wait between twelve to seventeen years on the waitlist. It's
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: a really long time. So when they get their chance,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: they're going to go. And to some accept people are
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: aware that there's a safety risk. It's not like anyone's
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: hiding it. It's definitely on the news. And there's actually
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: a ritual that many pilgrims think that they should be
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: doing before they go, which is writing your will. So
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: for example, the night before we actually left a hide,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: my wife and I sat down and we wrote our
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: will together. We're both twenty six and it felt very
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: weird to be doing that. Um but part of the
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: pilgrimage is actually thinking about the preparation propos process, detaching
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: from day life and thinking about the idea that you're
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: not meant to be coming back as the same person
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: as someone who's new, who's refreshed, like a totally different
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: version of yourself. And what you find is that because
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of people have got into that state, by
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the time they get there, a lot of people are
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: worried about the safety concerns, but at the same time
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: people feel a little bit more at ease and are
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: calmed down by that. And at no one's ever told
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: me that the safety issues put them off from going touch.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: They're worried, sure, but that that's not stopped them. Like
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: you said, there's been a number of issues that have
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: in just recent years that have plagued the Saddis. So
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: two years ago, for instance, hundreds of pilgrims, many of
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: whom were from Iran, were crushed during a stampede and mina.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Fortunately this year when we went there weren't any similar events.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: But all around during the carbar at the car but
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: for example, we saw people who had fainted even going
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: around to off when I went round to our for example,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: when and that's when you go around the carb seven times,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: it can get quite tough. And that was me, someone
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: who's quite younger, consider myself fairly fit. But the deeper
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: you go in, the closer you get to the car bar.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: By the time you've done those seven rounds. I could
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: hear it in myself when I was trying to speak,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I found it really tough to do so, and I
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: was kind of my energy had totally gone, and even
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to actually catch my breath, I really had to do
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: that quite a lot. That event in Minna two years
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: ago led to a lot of frustration because families and
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: friends found that it wasn't a centralized system. They wanted
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: to find out really if their friends and family are okay,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: and they didn't. They just had no way of doing that.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: So now there are different groups who are encouraging pilgrims
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: to wear i D cards with them, and so if
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: anything does happen, then at least group leader is called
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: if anything has gone wrong. And this has kind of
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: summed up quite well. In the first workshop that we
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: had before we left, we were told you will see
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: people dying along the road. You don't want to be
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: that person who just gets buried in on mark grave
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and no one knows where you are. Now, we didn't
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: see We didn't see anyone dying, and we did see
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: people fainting, and we saw people kind of being sent
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: to hospital. I did see people in a lot of
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: people in Medina who had passed away. I didn't actually
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: see them dying, but I saw their graves being sent
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to the to the cemetery. At the same time, the
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Saudis actually introduced or said they were, at least they
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: said that they're going to introduce electronic ID bracelets of pilgrims,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: and that was to two years ago, but in so
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: this year when we went, that still not happened. For example,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: there were some groups that had plastic wristbands and they
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: seemed fairly durable, but Pilgrims in my group, for example,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: just just got wristbands that were fairly colligible after showering
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: for two days, which really wasn't helpful. It's just kind
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: of as if they were made of paper, um, so
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: obviously if you did lose those, they're not gonna be helpful.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: We had little tags around our necks that had our
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: passport number, that had numbers for our group leaders, so
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: the people would be able to call them if something
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: did go wrong, and I managed to fortunately hold onto
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: my tag the whole way through, except for I actually
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: lost it on the very final round of me going
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: around the carver, so fortunately didn't lose that any earlier,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: but that was kind of fairly lucky on my part.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: And there are other efforts to create safety to So
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: for example, because it's now so hot, there are huge
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: miss sprays all throughout the streets as you get closer
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: to the carver, and also in Minna as you're walking
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: along because it does get so hot, so they try
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: and cool people down. There are somewhat they even have
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: some guards and people along the roads who are just
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: helping you and they spray water at you constantly as
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: you go along. So it's not just the mis sprays,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: but when it gets particularly touched in the daytime, for example,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: there are people actually spraying water you just to cool
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: you down. And then there's the other issue of infrastructure
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: and security. So for example, as I mentioned, there are
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: sometimes there are bridges that get closed and they're try
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and stop so many people being in the same place
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: at the same time. So what we found that after
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: the three main days of Hudge, when people then try
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: and go back into the carver, it can get quite busy.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: So during those periods they actually close down certain floors
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: or certain set so that you just can't get into them.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: And so for example, you may have to go all
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the way to the top floor and then work your
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: way down from there. Uh, and there's about seven floors.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: But what we found is that a lot of the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: time people would want to try and be out close
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: to the car as possible in the ground floor, but
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: they just close it off because they didn't obviously want
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: to have people injured and getting hurt right so close
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to the cover. All right, well, thank you Siage, thank
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: you Donna. This has been really interesting and informative and
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I learned a lot. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week and until then, you
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: or Bloomberg app, as well as on Apple Podcasts, pocketcasts,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: and Stitcher. While you're there, take a minute to rate
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: and review the show so more listeners can find us
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: and let us know what you thought of the show.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at at Scott Landman.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Seerage is at at dat d A t S and
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: you can check out his own podcast on the HAJJ
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: called The Hilgrimage. You can find that online too. Donna
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: is at at Donna a n one. Benchmark is produced
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: by Sarah Patterson thanks for listening, See you next time.