Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Throwback! S4 EP 111 - Adding the Shock Value - A Discussion on Triggering and Sensitive Themes

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Throwback! S4 EP 111 - Adding the Shock Value - A Discussion on Triggering and Sensitive Themes · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, it's Courtney Ortiz, and welcome to our next robot episode in season seven.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're throwing it back to season four with one of our most intense and most talked about episodes, adding the talk dialogue a discussion on triggering and sensitive feeds.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Competitive dance feeds boundaries.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: So when does powerful storytelling cross the line into triggering or inappropriate?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Especially in a family-friendly environment.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, we dive into the uncomfortable questions judges don't always get to say out loud.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: What happens when talk value becomes the focus instead of the dance tab?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: How sensitive themes land behind the judges table and in the audience.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: And where does responsibility fall when children are the ones telling these stories?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: This conversation is honest, layered, and still extremely relevant in 2026.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a choreographer, teacher, parent, or dancer navigating meaningful themes on stage 57.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: This throwback is one you want a year all the way through.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: So let's jump into this week's throwback.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Season four, episode 111, Adding the Talk Diet.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hey y'all, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here, like always, with my co-host Leslie Mueller.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Courtney, have a fun today.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's going.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great day.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: We're back to business.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're podcasting again.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy about it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm it's we're we're in season four.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hard to believe, but I'm glad we're back in business.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's and our summers were so much fun.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're back, we're here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And to all of our fans who discovered us over the summer months, I definitely know there are new fans out there.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to season four.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: You have a lot of catching up to do.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we've had some great episodes that kicked off our season four.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't had a chance to listen yet to all of our listeners around the world, make sure you tune in to our first spotlight feature featuring Re Gold, which was so awesome.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Love him.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, just epic.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Epic.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, truly epic.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what a way to kick off season four, truly.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we also did our hair and makeup episode that launched last week.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're looking for a new hairstyle to do for competition, or if you need some tips and tricks on how to keep that stage makeup on your face when you are quick changing backstage, then go listen to that episode.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: It launched last week.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we're here today to talk about a very intense, ooh, important topic.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Intense, important.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I like to use the term zingy.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a zingy topic.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about uh shock value and triggering subject matter in the dance competition world.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, yeah.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think this has been an episode a lot of people have been dying to hear our thoughts on, and we get a lot of questions about these types of uh topics or dances that may be presented, or maybe you've witnessed them yourselves, maybe you've sat in the audience or been a judge sitting in the chair, or maybe your dancer has been in a piece that made you uncomfortable or you weren't sure how to react.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna talk about all of those things today, and we have some spectacular guests, two brand new guests joining us on this episode.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, y'all.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna jump straight on into this episode because I'm sure we have a lot to cover and a lot to say.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like I mentioned, we have two brand new guests joining us on the pod for this one.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: And first up, I'm excited to welcome an IDA judge who joined our roster last season.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had the pleasure to finally meet her in person over this summer.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was so lovely.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm super excited to welcome Amanda Nicole DeTullio to the podcast.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Amanda.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: Hey podcast world.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to be here.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a bucket list thing, so I'm excited to check it off.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Is this your first podcast?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: It is, yes.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we love being everyone's first podcast.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sweet.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Amanda, it's been a pleasure having you on the IDA roster for the last season and excited to have you on the roster this season and getting out there and working for a bunch of different competitions.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know you've sat in the chair many times as a judge and are an experienced educator.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure you've seen your fair share of dances that have uh intense, I keep using the word intense, intense subject matter or the shock value that we're talking about today.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: So can't wait to hear your thoughts.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: But before we jump into that, would you mind telling the podcast world a little bit more about you, where you're from, where you're based now, any career credits you'd like to share, and what you're working on?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I'm originally from Southern California.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: I started actually at a competition studio.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't exist anymore, but shout out to Deanne's Jump Dance Center from Corona.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: I moved to Virginia when I was in middle school and ended up at the School of Richmond Ballet for a few years, which was a big transition, but I couldn't find a studio that I liked, and I ended up really focusing on ballet, doing a lot of productions with them.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Their original premiere of Cinderella, I was a part of, so that's definitely a big career credit that I'm super proud of.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: Lots of show choir and musicals in high school.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: That was a big thing where I went, it was like Glee Central.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I did a little bit of everything growing up and then got injured really badly in high school and kept having tendonitis issues and ended up going to Christopher Newport University because I needed to figure out what I was going to do.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't feel like I could really dance pull out anymore.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: I was really behind, my ankles were really weak.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I ended up back in the studio anyway and found a love for choreographing and teaching.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: So not long after that, I moved back to Richmond, taught at a studio for a while, choreographed for their competition team, and then in 2015 uh I married my husband, Stefan.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: We've been together for over 14 years, but we just celebrated our seventh wedding anniversary.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, we were babies when we met.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's originally from Northern Virginia.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: We moved up here, and I ended up where I am now, which is Born to Dance Studio in Vienna, Virginia.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's mostly it was mostly a hip-hop studio when I got there.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: There was hardly any other styles, and now there is a full-fledged ballet program.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: We have a competition team, jazz contemporary, and we have a huge adult program, which is really rare to have all of those different facets.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been a great, great place to work for the last seven years.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: But like Courtney said, I've been judging for a few years now for world-class talent.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: I am C for them and teach for them as well.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: I judge for Star Power and Star Quest, and I joined IDA this year, which was really exciting.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't wait to do more with you all.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: Recent things, you can see me in uh Jason Sarda's telephone music video.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's a fun story for another time.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was very last minute, and I learned all the chorus on set.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: So nice.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: That was an experience, yes.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: I've worked a lot with the uh now Washington Commanders football team.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: They do a lot of charity fashion shows.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I've had the pleasure of choreographing many of the players before my dancers have performed with them and gotten to walk in their fashion shows as well.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also an alum of the Galen Hooks method, which I can't recommend enough for any aspiring dancer or choreographer.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: And my favorite thing, I'm also a jazz baby.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a certified Giordano jazz instructor as well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't say enough good things about that program for anybody, Shameless Plug, who wants to have more jazz, concrete jazz in their studio.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Nan Gerdano and Caesar and Joshua Blake Carter, who I believe has been a podcast guest before.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: They're wonderful.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: They can answer all your questions.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: But right now I'm just teaching at my studio.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm back starting the new season and been guest teaching and choreographing a lot.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm also a uh a dog mom to an almost three-year-old Rottweiler.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: So crazy busy, but loving it.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much for sharing your beautiful dance journey so far with us, Amanda.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we're pumped to have you here on this episode.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_05: I'm pumped to be here.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: All right, and our next very special guest who is joining us today is someone who I've known for a very long time, and now I get to work alongside him at Revel Dance Convention.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to welcome Daniel Longo to the podcast.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Daniel.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, guys.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes too.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited that you have came back into my life so recently in the past like year.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: I get to see you so much more frequently than I used to, even though you used to be in New York and we rarely saw each other.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm just so happy that you're on the Rebel team and you're killing it.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to let you know that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, thank you.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, Daniel, if you wouldn't mind telling the world out there a little bit more about you.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh, like Courtney said, I'm originally from New York.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up dancing for my mother.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: She owned a competitive dance studio on Long Island.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up training under her and went off into college at SUNY Ferdonia, upstate New York, where I went to school for exercise science and dance and graduated from there.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I went on to get my master's in business administration from uh a school, a private school on Long Island.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as I got home from college, I started a nonprofit uh dance company that included uh dancers from all different studios, competitive studios from Long Island.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I actually got first connected with Courtney because she came in and taught for one of our in-house conventions that we had, and that was I think maybe 11, 12 years ago.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say so long ago.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and in 2015, I opened up a dance studio called East Coast Artist Dance Center.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Had that for five years, and COVID came along, unfortunately.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we made the decision to close.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I actually packed up all my stuff and moved down to Orlando in 2020.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And like Courtney said, I'm with Revel Dance Convention.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: I stumbled across them at the end of 2020, and it just flourished into this amazing relationship, and I'm now the director of event management for Revel Dance Convention.
• 10:09
  unknown: Yes.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you are working your booty off every weekend, but you are making those events happen.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: They we had a wonderful, wonderful season.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited for next season.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, me too.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much to both of you for joining us on this episode.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Let's jump on in, Leslie.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: You ready?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh goodness, I don't know.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is anybody ready?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're ready.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be so I guess listeners, just a thing to remember, just like at any dance competition, here are four people giving you four opinions.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: We all have a variety of backgrounds in terms of the dance world.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think probably combined, we've been judging for, I don't know, 50 years.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you combine all of our experience.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, take take everything we say with a grain of salt.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope what we have to say today just makes you think, you know, because that's what we're here to do is to to spark conversation and different ways of looking at uh the same thing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So with that said, I actually do want to know, Daniel, how many years have you been judging?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mention that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've been judging for Star Quest for 10 years.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I started with them first and I've done various other competitions, but a total of 10 years now.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just wrapped up my tenth season.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and Amanda, how long have you been judging?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going into my sixth season, but it feels like longer because I've been out so many weekends the past few years.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so I only ask that because my first question has to do with sort of like everybody's memories of the past in terms of being a dancer, but then being on the other side of the table as a judge.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do who thinks that we're seeing more competition routines that have been created for shock value or are using triggering subjects lately?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, my dancing history did not involve anything but honestly like pretty steps to pretty music or like a fierce step to some fierce music.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't trying to like make a statement, you know, maybe you were in your feelings about some things, but nobody we weren't trying to do anything on the stage besides dance.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my memory of growing up as a competitive dancer.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious if you guys back in the day did you encounter or participate in dances that had some kind of like message, but on the shock value side of things.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I know, I remember when I was growing up, there wasn't many that had that straightforward message, shock value topic.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did participate in a piece in high school that was to the Martin Luther King I Have a Dream speech.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the I would say the only one that I ever participated in.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I definitely think that the topics that are being put on stage now are more in your face rather what in in the past has happened.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it depends again, it's also a market thing, I think, where where you are.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely different.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I definitely do think there's more out there.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: What about you, Amanda?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: I actually I was talking to my mom about this and asking her, do you remember anything that you were ever uncomfortable with or that you didn't want me to participate in?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, No, uh, your director was very straight shooter about that kind of thing.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: She was all about the dance.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: And she didn't we didn't do a lot of props, we didn't do a lot of anything but dancing.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I do think I've seen a bigger uptick now that I'm in the judge's chair than what I experienced.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think there were some times maybe in uh theater settings, you know, one acts and and when we were trying to be edgy, but even then we were still in a school setting, so there were certain limitations put on us.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: But personally, I didn't participate in anything super intense growing up.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: What about you, Court?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think there were a handful of like questionable things looking back, but I don't think that it was ever in the intention of this is going to we're doing this for the shock value and we're doing this for the win, quote unquote, because I think that is something we're going to get into the conversation about very shortly.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that there were a handful of random dances that we were like, this feels a little political.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why are we why are we doing this?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it just kind of felt like they the choreographer wanted to do something to get a point across.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And this is when you were growing up.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like a competition, like growing up.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was just a little out there and weird.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I like at the time I was just doing what I was told to do, doing the dance.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're the choreographer, you do to the dance.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it is.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: But like looking back, I'm kind of like, why did we do that?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: That was kind of weird.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: And like we're spending money on on this weird dance that's just like it.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: It I don't know.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I actually like what you said, Amanda.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: And again, we're gonna we're gonna just talk all about these things, but like the theater reference, but then saying that you were restricted because you were in a school, ding ding, ding, like hello, that is like the a perfect example of, you know, you because it's in like a public school setting or it's within school guidelines and restrictions in that capacity where it's like, is this too mature for the age of children that we're working with in this setting?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like that seems like it doesn't happen in a dance studio that should be under similar guidelines, but there's no authority figure that is holding them accountable, essentially.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like that just immediately was like, well, if there was something that was saying, no, maybe, you know, not the best choice, or maybe we shouldn't, you know, they haven't learned this yet in a history class, or what, you know, whatever it is.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas like the school probably, you know, the school had to approve everything that's happening that's going on stage at the theater and stuff like that.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: We had a pretty, you know, I don't want to say progressive, but very professional theater director that he treated us like professionals.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that's part of why at a public school we had a great theater program.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: He was willing to push the boundaries to a point.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: But like even our senior year was when the rent movie came out.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: And we were like, we have the perfect cast for this, everybody's here, let's do it.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, Yeah, that's too much.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, not rent for you.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we're like, Oh, we can change this, we can change that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, No, that and for him to say that's too much, we all went, Oh, okay, well, if if he says that, then I guess it's too much.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: But he did, you know, there were times where we had conversations about how can we take this thing that isn't appropriate and change it a little bit to make it work so that we're still getting the point across without being in your face.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: So that was definitely uh there was a lot of that for sure.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Rent Jr.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, I know I was like, but like, no, can you imagine?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and then it comes to the point of like, well, let's not even bother because like the whole point of rent is not to be, you know, politically correct.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so yeah, I think I think we're all in agreement.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you do, we didn't really necessarily experience, you know, being asked to do shock value kind of dances or, you know, portray subject matter that was maybe above our comprehension.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think literally every weekend, every weekend for the past 10 years, I've seen multiple dances that I'm like questioning, like, ooh, who who signed off on this?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Multiple people signed off on this.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: How did that happen?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess maybe we should clarify for because this is one of those things, it's like you know it when you see it.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to say this is triggering and that's shock value.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that we can't get into like super duper specifics because everybody's values and judgments are are different based on your own experiences.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: But do you do we have anything sort of that you're willing to throw out there as this is sensitive, this is triggering?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are there topics that we should be sort of calling out, I guess?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I saw, I was judging, I won't give too many specifics, but there was a 9-11 piece, and they chose a very inappropriate song that went along with the dance.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I had I had to speak up on the mic because I have my own personal experiences with my stepfather and my uncle, who were FDNY, NYPD, who were the people running away from the buildings, and the way they presented this piece on stage, these kids were not alive when 9-11 went down.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one thing I always try to look at when I'm judging.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: These children don't know anything about 9-11 except what they read in the textbook.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, how are they going to bring on stage what, even if even if it's done in a tasteful way, how are they going to bring on stage what the choreographer is trying to portray to the audience when they have no connection to that?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's where the gray area can come in is how are you going to take whatever subject matter, say like 9-11, and give it to students who can't relate to it.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the hard thing.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it even and it can even go into doing a dance with kids about falling in love.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: When they're 12 years old, they know nothing about love.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I feel like it's how it's put onto the kids and what the intention is behind it that can really make it either really a beautiful piece of work or something that you almost need to close your eyes and look away.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you mentioned the comparison, because I was thinking this while you were saying it, you know, the comparison of like a a dance about falling in love versus a dance about experiencing the horrific tragedy of 9-11.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're talking about a 12-year-old or a nine-year-old or a seven-year-old, because we've seen them all, do a dance about falling in love.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: What those kids are doing is mimicking the facial expressions and the body language and the visceral reaction to what somebody is showing them.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're mimicking a dance step because that's how we learn how to dance.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're mimicking all of the other things happening.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so it takes away from the reality of that situation.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we up until a certain point at in your artistry, we as judges know that.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't believe you most of the time when you're 10 and you're talking about, you know, dancing about falling in love.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I know that you've mimicked somebody well, but then you put that whole piece of information on top of a 9-11 dance.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So am I supposed to believe that you're not mimicking a tragedy?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And is that okay?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And is that okay for somebody like you who has personal lived experience with that tragedy?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm glad you said something because it's that's one of those really tricky places where I don't love it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely a tricky area.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are a certain I would never say choreographer can't do a dance about 9-11.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's just for me, it's all about presentation.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's your intention behind it.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what when people go for that shock value, that's where the artistry can be lost, and that's where you can almost insult somebody who's sitting in the audience.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all about the approach for me.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't agree more.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: It it really comes down to the choreographer's hands a hundred thousand percent.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about the execution, it's not about there are so many other layers.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about the technique, it's actually about how it's presented and if it's presented tastefully is the most important thing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you can absolutely do a 9-11 dance.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Does it need to be titled 9-11?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Does it need to have does it need to have people that could look as if they are dying on stage?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or does it need to have like crash and bang and boom and sound effect?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, it doesn't.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: You can create a beautiful 9 11 dance that means something to you, and your dancers know what the intention is, and your dancers know what the story is, and your goal is to move the people that are watching it and inspire them and make them feel something, or have them shed a tear because it's It's absolutely beautiful of a beautiful tribute that we're we're doing instead of it being like this huge big crash bang boom shock value.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because, like you said, that's when the artistry can come, it can kind of get go downhill real fast.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like real fast.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there's certain topics I believe that as artists and as educators, we should be talking to them about certain things when it comes to you know, teen suicide, when it comes to school shootings.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are dancers, dances that I've seen about this type of stuff in a tasteful way.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen them done in a very inappropriate, upsetting way.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you want to do a dance about school shootings, I don't think that's inappropriate the topic.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: These kids nowadays are doing drills at school and hiding under desks.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're going through it.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it's a topic that can't be done, but like Courtney, you just said, don't put gunshots in the music.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, something like that.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I think it's it can almost be a a useful tool for for some kids, especially if they're struggling with it.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot to be said too for not being so direct.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, Leslie, we can tell when when the emotion is contrived.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've seen plenty of dances where I just I know within two eight counts that they're they're going for the shock value, and automatically I sink back into my chair and go, okay, get your head on straight.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because now I have to force myself to focus on the dancing and look past all of the gimmicks.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: When it comes to, since since you mentioned it with the the school shooting routines, I have again seen some that have been handled in a really beautiful way, and I've seen some that have been horrific.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: I was actually training for a gig one time, so I wasn't judging, thank goodness.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: And the routine was called Columbine.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I went, oh, okay.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I sat back and I it really bothers me that I even am saying the sentence out loud, but I think it's a fact now.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: When Columbine happened for those of us that were alive during that time, it was shocking.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was not the norm.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, sadly, it is the norm for a lot of these kids.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: They're not as surprised anymore.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're not blown away by another shooting, and that's awful.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: But when Columbine happened, I was really young, but I remember the news.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: I remember my parents watching the news, people talking about it around me, and being terrified at the idea that my school was no longer a safe place.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: So just that alone already had me a little bit uncomfortable.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then they were using 9-1-1 recordings over the music.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I was fuming and on the verge of tears.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not somebody who I think a lot of times these days people can be hypersensitive.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: And there are times where I I feel like people could chill just a little bit, you know, and where a lot of people are triggered by a lot of things, and then how can we do anything, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's artistry is so important, but I've also seen a school shooting piece where I didn't know that that's what it was about right away.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it was hopeful, and it was about these kids coming together and and bonding and rising above and supporting each other.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the only reason that you knew that that was the topic was because their t-shirts had schools listed on them.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it was beautiful, and it was so moving, and there was nothing about it that was triggering or harmful or upsetting.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: It was actually a really beautiful display of of support amongst these kids.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that was an example for me of kids being able to process that in a way that was done tastefully.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: But the majority of the time I would say it's not done as tastefully, and it's done for the idea of triggering people.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: And again, now we're focused on that and not on the dancing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and not all art needs to do that, you know, and I think that's where I I feel very lucky that we grew up in an age, you know, back in the day.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: When dance didn't have to do that, it feels like now everybody wants to make a statement with every single piece, every age, every style, every every group number has to have this statement.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I just don't think we need that because dancing isn't fun.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Even when it's when you're expressing sadness or melancholy or sh whatever it is, like you're still like that physical movement is a joyful thing to do, even if it's expressing something that's not joyful and to sort of it just feels like we've evolved and it's not even evolved is not the right word because I think it's devolved, but like we have shifted into another paradigm of all right, well, I guess in order to win, this has to be about something, and it has to maybe being about something shocking is gonna do better.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I, yeah, it's it's been it's been a crazy couple of years, y'all.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's been shocking.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like that that trend when gymnastics first came into dance, and everyone was like, oh my gosh, we have to get the these in so they remember us, they remember us, they remember us.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's almost like, oh my gosh, we have to make them remember us.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now everyone's flipping, now everyone's turning.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: What can we do?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But n thinking about all that, it's like, okay, I get what you're saying, but now you're crossing a line.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're making now you're making people feel uncomfortable.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what you're I don't want to remember you.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if I do remember you, it's it's it's for the wrong reasons.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's exhausting to sit at the table for hours on end and have all these things.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: And we we can't say, I'm not into this anymore, I'm gonna go home.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: We're there, we're glued to the table, and we have to give you feedback.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: So everybody, like you said on the panel, has a different experience.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: So you do need to be mindful of that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, it's almost become less impactful because everybody's doing it.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: So now I find myself when a routine comes out and it's just, you know, a saucy jazz number with no lyrics and just beats, and they're just killing the technique and they're grounded and they're now all of a sudden that dance is almost more exciting for me because I get to sit up straight and enjoy it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: So not saying that you have to do positive dances all the time, but it's worth mentioning to all of these teachers and studio directors and dancers that now we're seeing it all the time.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: How many times a day do we see an aerial?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's not as exciting anymore as it used to be.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same thing with shock value.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's not as shocking anymore unless you take it too far, and in which case now we're mad.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Now we're mad.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Now we don't want to judge your dance.
• 28:15
  unknown: Right.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I'm so glad that you brought up the point from the judge's perspective, because I don't think that many teachers think in that way when they are hand selecting, oh, we're gonna do this dance about this, like whatever the subject is that they know is triggering, that they know is going to possibly offend people or upset people.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then, well, yeah, of course, you know, you're presenting it at a competition to be judged by judges who have to sit there and cannot leave.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: You have to remember who's sitting behind the table.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And do uh is that your goal to upset a judge to a point where they don't even have words to speak because they're so like you came here for a reason, and the reason was to get feedback.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like if my feedback is either nothing or all negative, like has been in the past, like there have been routines where I know every single judge had the same negative thing to say, and then it was silence because there was nothing else to say.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you can't possibly have wanted that.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and if you did it once and you got that kind of feedback and then you didn't change anything moving forward, like that's on you when your kids don't get the higher award.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why that happened.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's exactly why we're doing this episode now, everybody.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: For all y'all listening, right?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: This very moment.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully you're listening at the very beginning of season four and at the very early stages of maybe before you've choreographed your shock value routine, because you're gonna listen to this and you're gonna be like, uh-oh.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if that's you.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully it's not everybody out in their world, but you know, it might be a light bulb moment of, oh my gosh, did you guys listen to that?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: We just choreographed this whole dance that we think's gonna be the winning dance this year, and it's oh man, it's got a lot of things in there.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's got the gunshots, it's got the this.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, maybe we scale it back a little bit.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we keep evolving this and make it into something really beautiful and inspiring, and you know, I don't know.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we wanted to put this episode right here at the very top.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: Not just because it's a hot topic, it's absolutely a hot topic, and it's gonna be listened to, but it needs to be heard because us as judges, all four of us, a lot of times we really don't have, like, I know Daniel, you said that like there was a dance you just you could not not say anything.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like you had to say something.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many of us in that exact position, but sometimes we're literally scared that we could potentially lose our job because this is so inappropriate and so wrong to be watching on stage.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: But we all the teachers in the world don't want any feedback on their choreography and don't want any feedback on their, you know, subject.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I personally think that the only way things are gonna change is discussions like we're having right now, or when there are judges like Daniel or whoever that are willing to speak up for the change in the industry and say, I'm sorry, I'm just uncomfortable.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I think this is a little bit inappropriate.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: The end.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I mean, I've been doing, like I said, I've been judging for 10 years.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've kind of learned how to speak about it on the recording without offending the studio owner and making sure that they're not gonna be upset where they don't come back or potentially lose my job.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's as a judge, also it's it's on our it's our job to speak up in a respectful, appropriate manner and let them know why you think this is inappropriate.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you can even start your critique by saying, This is my opinion, but blah blah blah blah blah.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's important because it is our opinion.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: What I find inappropriate, somebody else might not.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, some people have better deliveries.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: I that's something that I struggled with when I first started judging, is I would get so caught up in trying to figure out how to say what I wanted to say because I feel like they need to hear it, but I don't want to offend them or get in trouble.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then I now I've missed essentially 20 seconds of the dance trying to stumble through my words, and I've definitely gotten better about it.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's as simple as also, you know, teacher choreographer, I would just be really mindful of the subject matter you've chosen.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's just a simple generalized blip.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Other times I dig in.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I have a friend that when she judges, she usually waits till the end and says, Teacher, this note is just for you.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I also feel like if the students don't hear that, then the teacher might not pass it on.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's something to be said for the kids being able to go, Well, wait a second.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: If all three judges are saying that there's a problem with this, maybe we need to talk about that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because at the end of the day, the important thing that I think everybody needs to remember is that we're not dealing with professionals, we're dealing with children.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: So even when they're 15, 16, 17 and they're super mature and they've lived and they've had their heart broken, they've been through trauma, all those things, they're still children.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I know that even some of my most confident, outspoken kids might say, you know, oh, I'm not comfortable with this, but be afraid to speak up about it for fear of being ostracized or taken out of the piece or causing a problem or upsetting their teacher.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: And now they're kind of stuck in it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so, unless their parents feel strongly about something, they might just be stuck doing that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I think our job as educators behind the table is also to advocate for these kids when unfortunately the instructors they're with aren't doing that.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's such a good point.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great point.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: And for the parents to hear this too, because I think it is like you've briefly mentioned, I think that the parents sometimes do need to step up and step in and, you know, say, hey, I'm not sure if this is appropriate.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if I want my dancer learning this history in this way from you, who's not their history teacher, who's just the dance teacher at their seven and in this dance, and it just feels wrong to me, you know, like I and a lot of times maybe parents have no clue till they get to the preview show for competition and they're sitting in the audience with their jaw dropped, you know?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: But like that happen I'm sure that happens too.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: But then there's the other flip side of it, when like for example, a Schindler's List dance that we've all seen a thousand trillion million times.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just uh flips and tricks and acro, but it's Schindler's List.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And us as judges, uh the audience is hootin' hollering because there's good things happening on stage, but like, you know, most appropriate, I mean, depending on how it's presented, most of the time, not the best.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: But then we're sitting here as judges, like, well, we have to score what's in front of us.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing their flips great.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Their feet are pointed.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it puts us in this really awkward position because then everyone comes back at the backlash of, well, why did they win?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: If it was so inappropriate, then why did they win?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we can't like how what do you guys?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the energy wants from us.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the competitions want from us because it's I mean, my fix for that, and I say I say it on the critique if your flips and your tricks and your turns and your technique on point, I will give you the lowest possible highest score.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because I will score, I will recognize that all of that deserves an ultimate.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: But those other four points that I could give you to bump you to the highest that include artistry, choreography, execution, overall everything, you're not getting those points from me because all of the rest of it is inappropriate.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that is how you do not win first overall.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that because I didn't give you those points, because this choreography and the intention and the X, Y, and Z is not appropriate.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: But here's your 95 points.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely depends on the competition as well that you do work for, because I've worked for some that do allow me to take off points for inappropriate costuming, inappropriate choreography, stuff like that.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've worked for others that say you are allowed to comment on anything, but we are not going to penalize the kids for choices that choreographers make.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that also probably does depend on the company.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a very, very good point because they are all different.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if if you as a studio owner are questioning, like, well, why did this win or this not win, or where are my points being taken off?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ask because they are really truly all different.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've also worked with some people who have really strong opinions.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Schindler's List is a perfect example.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: We get into the green room and everyone goes, so how about that Schindler's List piece?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thoughts, and everybody's, oh gosh, I'm I'm so upset that they did that.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then there have been several times where I've worked with judges who are Jewish and they say, I just when that stuff happens, I can't even say anything because I get too upset.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so now this person who is actually emotionally and deeply affected by this can't even bring themselves to tell you that because they're so affected by it.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that should speak volumes to people.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: And anytime that happens, too, if I really do kind of go beyond just saying watch the appropriateness, if I dig in a little bit, I always tell the director, I texted Courtney after an event this season and said, Hey, FYI, I told the director, but there were two pieces that I just found were completely out of line.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: One of them was a Schindler's list, and I I was very professional.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: But if those studio directors come back upset, I just want you to be prepared.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: I I backed myself up and I was professional about it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Dancers, parents, teachers, studio owners.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: If you've been looking for a way to get real detailed feedback on your routines from trusted professionals, you've got to check out our service at IDA's online judgescritiques.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: Our critiques are done by industry through.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: For the upcoming competition today, IDAs online data center.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that that's really a a great a great thing that if there are other judges listening for whoever you work for, you know, of course the competitions are going to tell you what they, you know, how they want you to approach your feedback or approach your scoring and for your job.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if you do feel very strongly about speaking out on the critique tape to the teacher, you know, obviously that's a teacher note also could very well be listened to by the kids and may need it need to be heard by the kids.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: But it isn't a bad idea to give the competition just a little heads up too.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, this is this is something that I said on this dance, you know, just in case because all of the studio owners listening, I know y'all on Monday morning.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Email every competition in existence with all your feedback, good, bad, and the ugly, when it comes to what you experienced at competition that last weekend.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: And more times than not, it has something to do with what a judge said on a critique tape.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if the competition has a heads up like thanks for letting me know, I'll be on the lookout.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: You never know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: You might never hear from the studio owner, and they might take that information and make adjustments and move on, and you know, and that's what that's all about, right?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's like our opinion.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've said this a million times.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's just an opinion.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, perfect example, and and Daniel, you you know, I was a teacher judge at Revel last season.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and like I think it that's a very great way to bridge that gap.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you wanted to tell what that's that's about.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it was awesome that a a competition like Revel and their convention, and I think a few other competitions or conventions in the industry do implement a teacher critique, but I think it is a perfect way to bridge that gap where I don't have to focus on the technique.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: The other judges are handling that.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: The other judges are handling the execution and the technique and the performance and the things that are in the dancer's hands.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're talking to the teachers.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're talking to the choreographers, and we can really dig deeper and not really be, you know, I definitely always would present it in a in a way that was uh professional, but this is just my opinion.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not quite sure if this is the most appropriate for this age, this level, this dancer, you know, consider uh readjusting this section or you know, whatever it is.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: How how are teachers ever going to learn if instead they're just getting titanium diamond sparkles first place?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: If it's winning, right they're gonna keep doing it.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the hard I think that's a hard part in our industry right now.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: I found a lot of younger teachers really struggle with this as well because you're trying to make your mark and you want to get your name out there.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I know I was telling Courtney about this example when I was a pretty young teacher.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: I got very popped up about a subject, and I'm just gonna keep it to myself so as not to blast a whole bunch of, you know, we don't need to go that far.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I really wanted to go there, and my students wanted to go there, and we were fired up, and we had this choreography session, and it was a beautiful dance, but we had these sound bites at the beginning that laid out what the dance was about.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: And the director came in to watch it after we said it, and she said, you know what?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is too much.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've crossed the line here, and I understand what you're going for.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: I understand that you're trying to show all these different sides of this issue, but I feel like it's not gonna always be received well, and we really wanna keep this focused on the kids and them being judged by their dancing.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time I was furious and the kids were so upset.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I want my vision to be actualized.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I changed the opening sound bites and I made it a little bit more generalized, and there was still tension.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: We represented the tension between the dancers by putting the same dress on all of them in different colors so that people could tell there was something about them being at odds, and then eventually they came together at the end.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: It was beautiful.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: They did a beautiful job.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: They won a lot, they got a lot of great feedback.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: There were still some moments that were powerful that judges would go, wow, that's a really powerful image.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: But it wasn't triggering anymore.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: And now looking back as a choreographer and a teacher, I'm really glad that that happened.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: And as an educator, I'm really glad that I didn't put that on my students who, while they may feel that way now, who knows how they're gonna feel 10 years from now.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: There are plenty of things when I was 15 that I felt very strongly about that I have completely opposite opinions about now.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the thing to keep in mind at the end of the day, while we are not just teaching them dance moves, we're often teaching them about other things in life that's part of the gig.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: We're here to educate, not indoctrinate.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you can keep that in the back of your mind whenever you're deciding what you're trying to do a dance about, education is great, but it's not our job as dance teachers to indoctrinate these kids into the way that we think.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's to set them up to make their own decisions.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, Amanda, your experience of that that piece is exactly, I think, what we're all agreeing on.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's how you approach it.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And when like I mean, take I mean, I see a lot of dances about suicide.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've all seen a lot of dances about that.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't think it's an inappropriate topic for a competition stage.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: However, if I see Kids, and I'm going on stage, and I'm sorry if this is triggering for anyone, but pretending to slip their wrists or anything like that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's triggering.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: That is crossing the line.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hands down, I don't I can go back and forth with anyone who disagrees with me on that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: But to educate kids on a very serious topic and shed light to something and put something on stage that respects this topic, that to me, I think is okay.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, these kids are going through it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing wrong with giving them a topic that they do actually understand, as long as you're presenting it in the way that's appropriate for their age.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: And not glorifying any of it because I think that's that's the hard part is that, like, yes, they're they're inundated with images and social media and personal experiences of people, you know, going through a lot of these traumatic events.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, like we can all point to a lot that kind of trauma just adjacent or within our lives.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: But because they're seeing it so often, my sort of devil's advocate to that is why put another moment in their life that focuses on something like that, even if it is like towards the hopeful side of you know, the subject, um, just because it's it's it's everywhere.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why why bring it to the dance studio too?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I definitely respect your opinion.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: It depends on the kid.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like some kids.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's definitely yeah, they they come to the studio or go on stage to escape.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: For some people, art is an escape.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you could look at the history of Broadway shows.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: When you look at shows from the 30s and 40s, shows from the Depression and World War II were very happy, go lucky, you think about anything goes.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it was that was an escape from the terrible things that were happening in the world.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then you can kind of track that through history when it comes to just Broadway shows alone, TV shows.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: And now I feel like kids are watching these these shows now.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: Everything is very dark.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: We've got all these crime shows, and all these kids are watching shows like Euphoria that have these really heavy topics, and so in a way, they're not escaping that.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's like you said, they're inundated for other kids.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_03: The studio and the stage is where they come to process those things.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I do think it's important for parents to be involved in these conversations.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I've had kids, Daniel, that have gone through uh self-harm issues and a lot of deep things, and there have been times where I'm sure other teachers have experienced that they are the only person that that kid feels like they can talk to.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: So you don't want to shut them down, but at the same time, you have to tread lightly because you're not their parent.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: So having that communal, you know, integration is really important.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: And again, you can, like you said, tackle it in a tactful way.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: There was a girl who did a beautiful dance that really moved me a few years ago, and I I couldn't place what it was, but I could tell it was genuine, and I could tell that it was coming from somewhere really deep.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I gave her a special award on stage, and I said, you know, if you don't mind uh giving us just a quick blip about what this is about, and I had no idea until she said, and I couldn't believe she said it on the microphone, but one of her friends was terminal and had some sort of awful uh situation going on, and that dance was her processing the fact that she was going to lose her friend.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: And in that moment, I thought, wow, if she had made that blatant and in our face, it would have been difficult to watch.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it sometimes I feel like those things are so personal that I have a hard time judging them when I know what it is, because now I'm trying to be sensitive to your situation, but I still have to judge you.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's the that's the thing.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's it at the end of the day.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: For me, when I see things that feel a little too out there, a little too triggering, a little too intense, my favorite word for this episode.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's I think that's what we need to step back and realize.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like we you you're asking for this uh quote unquote work of art that you are presenting on stage to be judged.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to be okay with an opinion that might not go in the same way that you're thinking it's going to be perceived because it might just be delivered in a wrong way, or it might just be executed poorly.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, yes, yes, this is a triggering subject, but that doesn't get you bonus points.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: It does not get you bonus points.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think that people think it's going to.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's take it's taking a risk, and you have to and if you are wanting to put something out on stage regardless of where it is, and you know it's a risk, you have to be prepared for it to not be perceived well.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean I remember years ago I presented a piece at the Albany Lee Theater, and it was a very heavy political piece.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I had some people l love the dance, and then I had some people say, How could you put something like that on stage?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't care.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was proud of it.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: I did it in a tasteful way.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't anything in you know, and these were adults at the time, but it there wasn't anything inappropriate, but someone thought that politics doesn't belong on stage.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the line That's where the line is.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: You were dealing with adults, and you were okay with the the feedback that you might get might not be okay, and that's that's art.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: Art always imitates life, and it should.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: Art should reflect the times, art should be a way that we can express our political views, our religious views.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: We have freedom of speech in this country, and that's an incredible thing.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: But again, we're talking about kids.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I liken it to if you were to go to a uh rated G or PG movie with your five-year-old, and suddenly there were rated R elements in this movie, you would probably not be happy.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, some people take their kids to rated R movies.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's their choice, right?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: But when we go to a dance competition, most of these events are labeled family-friendly events.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's there's no trigger warning to be had, there's no label where we can put ratings on these dances.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: And we expect in certain cities, like you said, certain localities and things, you know, I'm gonna expect very different content in Vegas than I am in Lexington, South Carolina, right?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: Just because of what the areas are like, but it's still a family-friendly event.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I like to think of it like when you're putting something on stage, there's a lot of kids in the audience.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: If that alone doesn't make you think for a second, maybe we need to take a step back and think about where our intention is coming from.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know who's sitting in the audience.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that's what it goes back to.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's at a competition.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: Your goal is to please the judges.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, you're trying to please the judges because it's a competition.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, go perform at the parade.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:27
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like and I think that's really what like for me, when when everybody's like, well, you know, the judges, the judges, well, you came here for the judges.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why else you came here because there's other performance opportunities, there's other team bonding opportunities, there's classes you can take, but you come to a competition for the judge's opinion to give you feedback.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: To give you a score and so to rank you.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Here this is what we're doing.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have, I just want to ask, have you guys have heard, and I at least I have in the past several years, of judges truly just sitting back and not judging a piece?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Has that ever occurred to you to do that?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or are have you just sort of I think that's a little in unprofessional?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are hired to give an opinion, even if you completely don't agree with what's on stage, speak in an appropriate, professional manner and let them know why you think that's inappropriate.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's your job.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: I've also uh just because I had a coughing spell one time at StarQuest, actually, I I had a full-on coughing fit and I just stopped my recording and I passed the note to the tabulator and said, I need to re-record this later because I there was just no point.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I was able to go into a room later during a break and re-record my critique.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I think if there are judges out there, if you really are just verklumped and you cannot find the words and you're too upset, I I would say, in my opinion, the most professional route in that case would be to pause your recording, pass the note to the tabulator or to your director and say, I'm happy to re-record this later with a clear head, but I'm just too overwhelmed right now.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: This is too much for me.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: Rather than just I'm not doing this.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not doing it.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there have definitely been a handful of times where I've I've been left like literally speechless.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm trying so hard to find something and just get my mind off of the fact that I am actually watching this stage right now.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to critique other things.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's flexed feet, there's turned in this, there's whatever.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I it's like overpowering my brain power to speak about anything else because all I can think about is, is this really happening?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's truly and I've probably said that on the microphone in a professional way.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm sorry that I'm not able to give much feedback right now.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm just really stuck on this subject, or you know, whatever it is.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's an o that's honestly how I feel in that moment.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's not a bad advice, Amanda.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: If if you have the ability to, I need to do this later, because at least you know what's coming now.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that trigger warning.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's and actually it's interesting.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a lot of people have been debating uh because this is a very hot topic in the industry and a lot of the forums and things, a lot of people talk about shocking subject and you know the ratings, and you can't warn people if it's going to be triggering and who's sitting in the audience.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people have said, well, can't competitions just add like a little checkbox or some type of rating scale when they're registering that says this has, you know, explicit sounds or triggering or I know.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I mean, I don't know.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think given until take a mile, you know.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are we gonna see?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: What are we gonna see?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: I checked the box.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: You said I could check the box.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, right.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, gonna be interesting.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: But then it also gives it also gives the the teacher, choreographer, studio owner, like almost like a spark, like, oh, let's create something triggering, just like a check that box.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I might be the only one with the checkbox this weekend.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like exactly.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: No, and that's that's yeah, yeah.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, and remember at the end of the day, too, teachers, you're you're creating this work for kids.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna say that every I'm gonna say it every five minutes.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's true.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: But what is your intention behind creating the shock value and the triggering?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: If your goal, we've talked about wanting to win, right?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think some of that mentality comes from seeing these shocking things on, like, you know, so you think you can dance and dance moms and those are TV shows, so keep that in mind.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: But we could go on a whole tangent about that.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: But what is your intention in taking something traumatic and triggering to win a piece of plastic?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I mean?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yes, we're winning and we've got the pride and we've worked hard for the win.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: When you get down to it, if your intention going in is to stand in the wings and peek out and see if the judges are upset, maybe we need to take a step back and go, okay, well, maybe my kids really want to do something that they can process.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're gonna sit down and have a conversation.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: Parents are involved, we're gonna have this beautiful artistic moment.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: We don't care what the judges say because we are just doing this for us, and that's beautiful.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're sitting there saying they better cry if you don't make the judges cry, I've heard people say that.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard them say so many crazy freaking things teachers say to their kids about me.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I I've make them cry, make them cry.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: If someone's not crying in the audience, you didn't do your job.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well right.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: What the hell?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's not a job for a child.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely like they don't have enough pressure on them, right?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, so so many things.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've definitely heard heard that.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: At least I'm not I'm never backstage.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: Some of y'all are backstage more often than I get to ever be backstage during it.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I've definitely heard those things before from people, which I mean, yeah.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have so many thoughts.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really don't know the best way to prevent this, I guess.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we've really drilled it home this entire episode just about how it's done.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be done tastefully, it has to be done.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like and there's so many other like if you if you're looking for like a mature subject matter for your dancers, there's plenty of mature subject matter that's not triggering.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I don't for me, I the I have a dream speech, and this is here we all go with opinions, is not triggering.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's not shocking.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's empowering, and that's something that we're standing up for a moment in history and the future, and like that kind of thing.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think Courtney, Alexa, your friend at Supernova, did like a women in history piece that I thought was super powerful.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was not baby-ish or child, it was powerful.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was not shocking, but like there's find find moments in history.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: If we want to do a historical event as a dance, because a lot of times it's 9-11, it's bullshooting, the Holocaust, like like World War II.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can name a bunch of historical events, but there are other historical events that don't have that shock value that are equally as important.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: That if you're if you're one of your points of view is, well, let's teach them something in history.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, oh, just open a history book and find something that's not traumatic.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Another subject that I think is abused often on competition stage that is a little triggering is a mental illness.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like a lot of people go into certain costuming choices that are just very inappropriate to have on stage or have like bruises all over your body, or uh just the way that you're telling a dancer to act in uh certain choices on how you think that someone would act.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just so it's honestly ignorant and and rude, and it comes across just so icky to me that those are sometimes those kinds of dances where I'm just like, I cannot believe I'm watching this.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really cannot believe putting putting uh uh kids in strait jackets or something.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that like that.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen that done so many times, and it's like, how, how is how are you teaching kids about mental health with this piece?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's not that's not a teachable moment.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: You're not teaching them anything.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: Not done that way, no.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Not yeah, that yeah, that's what I'm saying.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not done that way.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to teach kids about and raise awareness of mental illness, you have to first of all tread lightly because that is a huge, huge subject, especially nowadays.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough one.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and even like very recently, Lizzo and Beyoncé, I think, had to backtrack and pull some phrases from their music that I don't think they even realized were ableist and were, you know, phrases that just polite society does not use anymore because they are outdated.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if Lizzo and Beyoncé can say, listen, I I actually didn't know I was ignorant, now I know, and I'm removing that from my multimillion dollar album.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: Surely a dance teacher can can pull back and say, you know what, maybe not a straitjacket, maybe not the insane asylum dance where everybody is running around and portraying rare.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like we, you know, it's think think a little bit more and think outside of the bubble of your world.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, yeah.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard for us to help you with that as judges because we only have three minutes.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_03: So we try to do that.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's a personal thing.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: We try sometimes to say maybe we think about this this way, but I don't want to spend your whole critique telling you what you should be doing because that's not technically my job is to correct all your choreographic choices.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: I should mention it if I think it's inappropriate, but I'm not there to tell you, well, here's how we're gonna attack this subject appropriately because I don't have time.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: We have platforms like this.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: Now I do this a lot.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: When I'm judging, I'll say, go listen to this episode of Making the Impact because I don't have time.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I love that.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have time to expand on it, but if you want to know more, if you care about this, this is a great episode to go listen to so you can get more.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: So now we can refer to this episode, and hopefully that will be helpful for people.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, when you look at, for instance, kind of in a similar vein, there's been a lot of like kids being taken hostage stances recently as well, like a lot of solos.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I the the human trafficking crisis, especially with children, I just I'm so sensitive to it because I just think it's one of the most atrocious things that people actually take children.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I can't fathom why a parent would want to see that acted out by their child on stage.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's a terrible thing and it's something we should raise awareness about.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: But again, context is really important.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we can't tell the context of the dance within the competition world.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe a concept video where you can put information and here's where you can go find more and how you can help might be a better opportunity for some of these subjects like mental health issues.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_03: But putting kids in padded rooms on stage and having voiceovers saying, don't interact or get too close to the patients or they might become violent.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: What is that teaching?
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I heard that one.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: What is that teaching our kids about their mental health issues, which we know, especially after this lockdown, they're all experiencing.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's not giving them a positive, a healthy view on how to start talking about and dealing with their own issues.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's just sort of glamorizing or romanticizing it or you know, demonizing it instead, you might not realize it in the moment, or they might not realize it in the moment.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: But all those things, I I bet if you tracked a dancer all the way through their career, a psychologist was to track them and then to look at how those things affected them as an adult, they would all play a part for sure.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely it would.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you expose, you know, there's I don't have the science on this, but like if you're doing a a dance, you know, a padded room dance every day, you're practicing it every day for a year, that sticks in your head.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's now embedded in part of who you are.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what would it be if it was a different subject?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: What changes about you and your personality if it's a different subject for a year?
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a lot of a lot of people have have mentioned that as another point to why do it.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you kind of briefly mentioned it, Amanda, at a point where you were like, What's that?
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: Why honestly, like why sometimes is is what I want to know.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want to pull the teacher aside, I want to pull the choreographer aside when I see something that is not tastefully done that I have you know been triggered by.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to know why why'd you pick this one?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: What was your reasoning?
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because I have a feeling that based on what I just watched, your goal was to trigger in a way that you think is gonna be so impactful that you're gonna win, get bonus points, and win first overall.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's how it comes across to me as a judge most of the time, unless it's done in a very tasteful way.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't just the four opinions.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly because it's done in a tasteful way.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so if we're asking that question, then like the then the comp then the teacher needs to kind of rethink what their whole purpose, because you nailed it.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: I know we always say this is just our our four opinions, and I will never speak for other judges, but I will say anytime these dances come across the stage, there's a conversation.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: And nine out of ten times, nine and a half out of ten times, everybody in some way goes, yeah, mm-mm, didn't wasn't feeling that.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: But I think to play devil's advocate just a little bit on some of that.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: I have seen a saw solo this season.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was uh a senior male dancer, and it was unbelievably guttural.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you could tell that he was just like his guts were on the stage by the end of it, and I was in tears and it was really moving.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I was sitting there going, I want to know, not I want to know why.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I really I wish I could ask you what this was about because it was so beautifully done, and you weren't direct enough to make me go, Oh goodness, I don't want to watch this.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: It made me lean forward and go, What is this about?
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then I come to find out through another judge that knew from the teacher that this kid had come out to his parents and wasn't accepted and was dealing with all of that.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that was him processing all of that on stage.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so now that I know that after the fact, I've already judged it, you know, I've I've scored it.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_03: It was beautiful.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_03: I thought he did a beautiful job.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_03: The teacher did a beautiful job, but I wasn't so directly told what it was about that it made me sway a certain way or feel more, you know, like, oh, I want to give him the points because I'm so proud of him, which is another thing we have to be careful of.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we connect with dancers on an emotional level, and we have to remember that even though dance and artists subjective, we still do have to put a score in.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, when we get to the nitty-gritty and the tiny little tents of points, sometimes the dancer that ends up winning is a dancer you do connect to more.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: And your performance score is a part of it.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: But I just feel like that was one of my favorite examples of somebody who just really handled what they needed to process on stage in a healthy and positive way without putting it in our faces to a point that we felt like we had to speak a certain way about the subject.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: What a great example.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: And now I really want to see that piece.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I've always said to dancers, so soloists specifically, sometimes with a group, I don't need to know what your dance is about.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: You need to know what your dance is about.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you know, I know that you know.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: But because I'm gonna put my own story on it if you're effectively doing something.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you have your own story, you know, you don't have to yell at me through choreography that this is about this subject.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: I because I'm gonna art affects everybody individually.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as you know, I'm good.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that's what I think is so lovely about that example is that like he knew and you knew he knew.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: But you had no idea.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a good thing to clarify too, is sometimes, at least for me, when I tell dancers, you know, your technique is beautiful.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_03: I've given you all these critiques, but now I would really love to know what this is about.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm a little lost in what our story is.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's not me saying I literally want to know exactly what it's about.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's what you said, Leslie.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: I want to know that you know what it's about, and that I can sit back and go, they know what they're dancing about.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a great thing to clarify because I think we say that a lot of stuff.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what is this about?
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like we're missing the story.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean we need some novel, but direction and intention is always obvious.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, when it's there and when it's not there.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's when you go back into the rehearsal the next day, sit down with your dancers as the teacher, the choreographer, and say, Can someone tell me what this story is?
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: What are you feeling at this point in the dance?
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: What are we trying to convey in our expression, in our performance, in our you know, execution at this point?
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where are the arcs in the story?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like if that's never being said in rehearsal and we're just drilling the technique and making sure our turn sequence is together and we're leaping on count one, like then we're all making the space at the same time.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to make the emotion at this point and make sure that you know it's like, no, that's not no.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_02: We need to we need to go back, we need to go from the beginning to the end, and we need to create this story, and we all need to be on the same page with the story and all fully committed.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_03: Are we all telling the same story?
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_03: Or are we all doing our own interpretation of a theme?
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's a difference in that enactment of any story, there's a huge difference, and I always am seeing that disconnect with groups and especially duet trios, too.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_03: I found that a lot, and that's a whole nother week, that's another podcast.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, having that clarity.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, writing it down into the notes.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a how do we not think of that one yet?
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, seriously, that's so basic, but like so good.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're yes, thank you.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Amanda.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be season five.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have you back.
• 1:07:30
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like we all said, I think we're all in agree agreement.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, it's the intention and how you approach it.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's how I always look at it.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and remember their kids, yeah.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_03: And the context.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_03: The context too.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_03: I actually, uh another example, I wasn't judging, but I was in the other room and I passed by and there was a a reenactment of a car accident on stage with a full car.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've seen a lot of those.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen a lot of those.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they've seen it.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you somehow.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, dance moms.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: I later went and literally, I forgot about that.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_03: I later went and looked and saw that they had done this as a concept video and it was a PSA about not texting and driving.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, wow, okay, in this context, in this medium with this information, this is a great way to reach teenagers about this subject.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not bothered by it.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_03: But in the moment, live on stage, watching kids fling their body out the car window and hear their parents cheer as they did it, it took me a good 20 seconds to go, what really?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that just happened.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it took me a second to gather myself because I've been in several car accidents and not a fun experience.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't one of those things that was super triggering to me.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_03: It was definitely shocking.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_03: But the context wasn't really there for me.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if the context had been there in some form, I might not have been as taken aback by it.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_03: But then again, intention, where are we posting this or performing it, you know?
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of people could consider taking some of these performances to their recitals and showcases as well.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_03: If your community needs this message, absolutely take it to your recital or to your showcase or to whatever performance venue you need to.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_03: But it's competition, it's a different venue, and you always have to, you know, think about your audience, right?
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_03: You always have to know you're putting this out there for people to judge whether they're in the judge's seat or not.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you need to be okay with that.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_03: And some people will take what we say and they'll say, Yeah, whatever.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_03: I totally disagree.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care, I'm gonna do what I want.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_03: And there's nothing we can do about that.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_03: But if we don't start having these conversations, yeah, and if parents don't start asking and kids don't start asking, and teachers don't start start taking a step back and thinking about why they're doing what they're doing, then it's just gonna keep happening.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, our intention It doesn't mean as an artist, don't take a risk, but it means again, how you approach it, the context of it.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: Think about what somebody's watching.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: Take yourself out of the choreographer's shoes, put yourself in the audience, flip it, yeah, flip it.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: How would you feel if you saw another studio doing this?
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Would you respect it, or would you be like, oh my gosh?
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I always sort of think about like when when you see like a bad ad campaign or you see a commercial and you're like, God, who how how many people had to approve that?
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how did they approve that?
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: How did this get to publication?
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's this, it's the same.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would I would be to the point where like there's a a fellow judge that like he and I are completely opposite in our opinions about everything, completely opposite.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: But he's a very good judge.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would bring that judge in to look at my piece.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I was questioning something, I would say, you know what, sir, can you please come watch this?
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because if his opinion was vastly different or was like, oh, that's terrible, or you know, whatever.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, then maybe I would rethink it.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, if if you're surrounding yourself by people who have your same opinion, no nobody is gonna be like, oh, Leslie, that was a poor choice.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be like, oh, we love that.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: But like find somebody outside of your circle, you know.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know who to go to when you want an honest opinion versus when you want someone to placate you, right?
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: It depends if they actually go to them.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to sort of humble yourself, you know.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_03: People should consider that.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Reach out to other people.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_03: I know we've got all these networks, and I know they can get kind of convoluted and crazy at times, but you know, it it's a good thing to ask.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's also worth thinking about if I have to ask, if this is too much.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's the first thing.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's a little too much.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean you can't do it.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean you can't do it.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, Daniel doesn't mean you can't do some of these subjects, but if you have to ask if you're crossing the line, you've probably already crossed it.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_05: Most of the time.
• 1:11:35
  unknown: Yep.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, y'all, we we definitely went there with this one, and I love every second of it.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think everything that was said is so important and so necessary for so many in our industry to hear.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are tuning in to this episode, to all of our listeners, whether you're a dancer, a dance teacher, a studio owner, pass it along and share it with others who you think uh could use uh this uh amazing guidance and advice and opinion from four veteran judges in the industry who have watched our fair share of triggering topics and shock value dances.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen so many.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Great ones, maybe not so great ones, a little bit in between, you know.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And uh take a look at what you're uh about to head into the season presenting and make sure that it feels appropriate for the context and the audience and who might be sitting in that chair and who might be sitting in that audience because I think that is a a big factor in in when it comes to competition dance.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Recital, you do your own thing, y'all.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: You do whatever you want to have happen at your recital.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: But when some of us are stuck in that chair and have to watch this, I really don't want to be crying in my seat.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to, unless I'm like beyond moved and oh my god.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've definitely cried a handful of times.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: There have been a handful of times where I've cried where it was like a triggering cry where and it took me a long time to recover from that as the judge.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not a great feeling when I have to work 15 more hours the rest of that day.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's not fair to the rest of the dancers either that you're now in this cloud.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Now you're affected.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Here we go.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_02: I we've been there.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_02: We've all been there, I'm sure.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, y'all are fabulous guests, so thank you for being on the pod for the very first time.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_02: We can't wait to already have you back, both of you, and for sharing your opinions from all of your years of judging and from being on the teacher side, the studio owner side.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_02: It is just so helpful to hear on all sides of this topic.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we've said so many things, but we might as well just wrap it up with one final thought that you may have, one final bit of advice you might want to share with to choreographers, to teachers, uh, to parents, to dancers.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh anything you'd like to say regarding uh this shock value uh subject and topic today.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I would just have to say whatever the topic would be, think about think about how you're gonna respect the topic.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because if there's a if it's a serious topic and you want to shed light to it, respect it at the same time.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're going for shock value and triggering moments, you're disrespecting it, you're glorifying things that shouldn't be glorified, and you could be putting kids' mental views at a different uh twisting them certain ways.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So come at it with res respect and love, and you know, again, their kids.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Can we say their kids one more time?
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_03: They're kids, they're children.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we're we're very responsible for helping raise these kids.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think that phrase, it takes a village, has kind of fallen away.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of people are really reverting away from that.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And we're a huge part of these kids' lives.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_03: When they're not in school and they're not at home, we're the ones that they're turning to, we're the ones that are guiding them, not just as dancers, but as humans too.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's a huge part of our responsibility to, like Daniel said, respect the topic, but also respect our dancers and give them a chance to formulate their own opinions.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, educate, don't indoctrinate.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Give them the information as unbiased as you can, give them your experience and say, This is my experience, not this is the end all be all.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_03: And take the intention of shedding light, not you know, overexposing everything to a point that all your goal is is just to win with this topic.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_03: We have such an important job, and it's, you know, we deserve honorary psych degrees and you know, weekly massages and all those things, because we deal with more than just steps.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: But it's a great job, and it's a it's a beautiful gift that we have to be able to be in these kids' wise in this way.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So keep that in the back of your head.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_03: And remember that your artistic vision has to be married with what these kids are capable of handling, both physically and emotionally.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for tuning in to our throwback episode of season four, Adding My Stop Guide.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Special shout out to our guests, Amanda and Daniel, for joining us on this important discussion.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can find Amanda at AmandaNichel underscore D and Daniel at DSLongoor.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow me at Amanda at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcast, and pretty much everywhere you listen to the podcast.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want more exclusive episodes, support our podcast by joining our Putin Freemium membership for only$5 a month.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Join now at ImpactCantors.com slash Platinum Freemium or click the link in our show notes.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Coming up in the next few weeks, look forward to an episode devoted to the juniors and teens and another throwback episode all about the minis.