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Arts and science: how to manage projects in any sector · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the roject profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
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the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host.
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In this podcast, I'm speaking to two project professionals who
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work in completely different sectors about how core project
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management skills combined with sector specific knowledge can
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give you a career that is highly transferable from 1 industry to
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another. It's International Women's Day
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this week, so the fact that they are both successful women in
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project management is something to celebrate too.
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So let's meet Josie Harris and Anna Ustinuk.
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Josie, A trained chemist, is Global Business development
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Director at Domino Printing Sciences.
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They're the people who make and place the labels and products
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and packaging, while Anna is a project manager at Harrison
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Parrot, an international arts management agency.
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But I'll let them explain more about what they do themselves.
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Both are members of the APM Interest Network.
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Women in Project Management or Whip them Listen on for their
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advice on what it takes to get ahead as a project manager no
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matter which sector you work in. So, JC, would you like to tell
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us a little bit about your role and the business you work for?
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Yeah, sure. So I work for a company called
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Domino Printing Sciences, based just out on the on the outskirts
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of Cambridge, and we manufacture industrial coding, marking and
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printing equipment that puts codes, data and graphics onto
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products across factories all over the world.
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So if you think things like expiry dates and QR codes,
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they're the kind of things that you'd come across every day that
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are the products that we make. My current role in the
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organisation is a global business development director.
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I've got a focus on how we approach our OEM business.
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So that's people who make original equipment,
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manufacturing bits of packaging equipment.
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This involves shaping a commercial strategy and defining
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how we do our projects to drive growth with this type of group
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of customers. I've been doing this since
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August last year and before that I led the programme management
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office where I launched and created the the team to make
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sure that our R&D projects were being translated into new
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products and we got some launches and some successes out
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from those. Thanks, Jose.
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That's really interesting. So I'll come back to you and ask
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how you kind of jump from project programme management up
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into the senior leadership team, because I know that that's
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something listeners will be really interested in and also
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how you found yourself in project management in the 1st
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place. But thank you, Anna.
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Tell us a bit about who you work for and your.
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Role I currently work for Harrison Parrot Group which is
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an international arts management company which overseas different
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areas of creative management. It a main focus is arts
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management, so managing artists, classical musicians mainly, but
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not only classical but we also do touring, international
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touring, publishing, a bit of education and creative
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consultancy. My role is more client facing,
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so I manage a portfolio of high profile classical musicians and
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I deliver everything. They participate in our
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international performances, major events, recording
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productions on a day-to-day basis.
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That means international logistics, everything related to
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visas, travel, accommodation, but also contracts and
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communicating with a lot of external stakeholders who in in
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our case would be promoters, venues, orchestras.
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And I think the main focus is to align everyone on the same
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vision while protecting artists interests because we are acting
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on, on their behalf, creative interests but also financial
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interests. Before that I I worked in, lived
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and worked in Moscow, Russia. And I was part of a big theatre
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festival. So it was a theatre production.
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We had a very big festival in Moscow which took place annually
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and we would bring all different theatre productions to Moscow
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from all over the world and Russia.
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And then we would tour best Russian performances all over
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the world. But my main role was the What
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Ceremony, which was a pinnacle of the festival I just
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mentioned. And it was a huge production, 3
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hours live show and every year it was a completely new
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production. So it required me to be
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responsible for full life cycle of all steps of project
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management, starting from building creative ideas through
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all the stages of production and finally getting it on stage and
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presenting our our performance to the audience.
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It was quite exciting. Yeah, thank you.
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I mean, two really interesting worlds.
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You, you both have two very different backgrounds.
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So Josie, what's your background and how did you get into project
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management? So I'm a trained chemist and so
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I actually started my career in research and development.
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So I started off developing new products, so inks in this
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instance, and all of those projects were being run.
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And as I started to kind of get more technical responsibilities,
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I started becoming more accountable for the delivery of
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the developments and then started doing all of the
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elements that we required to get a new product out into the into
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the market. So started becoming a bit of a
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project manager and then a bit more programme management as I
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was looking after the collection of all those projects that would
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be collectively delivering the new product portfolio into the
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into the marketplace. About five years ago.
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I was then asked to kind of use those skills I'd kind of
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demonstrated in delivering some of those projects and programmes
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to create the formal programme management office, to really
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improve the efficiency and predictability of what we were
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delivering and then to build project management as a core
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competency within new product development.
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It was a gradual shift for you then towards project management.
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What? What was it about it that
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attracted you? And I really like seeing the
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kind of projects deliver on time.
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So I think when you say you're going to do something, I really
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like to see that being done. And so I think that's kind of
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one of those things that it kind of just gives a lot of
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satisfaction to, to seeing the outcomes be delivered.
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And then because I really liked working with different teams of
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people and could bring people together towards that kind of
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common goal, started becoming quite effective in getting stuff
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done. So yeah, just started really
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enjoying it. And you're an OPM member, you
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involved with the Whippam Interest Network as well.
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Did you find find yourself on a kind of more formal than route
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towards professionalisation as a project manager?
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Yes, I haven't actually done any formal qualifications.
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I've kind of done the the learning on the on the job, but
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I have used a lot of the resources that APM have in some
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of the tools and techniques that project managers do and
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encourage others in the team that training is a good kind of
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place to to start with things. So I've really kind of used a
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lot of those things for inspiration about how to build
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the tools and methodologies that we're going to use and kind of
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bring that discipline into the into the team.
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Anna, how did you? I understand you.
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You trained concert pianists. So how did you have you found
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yourself moving over to project management?
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So I was training as a as a pianist and I was studying and
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at the same time a new course opened up and it the name of the
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course, master course was music business Management.
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And I became very curious what it might give me because I think
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by that time I naturally did a lot of things, you know, among,
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among our events in the university to make everything
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happen. Because if you, if you want to
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have a concert or a performance, someone needs to organise this.
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So I just realised that I do it already.
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I help my peers to, to connect people to, to do all the
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backstage things that you don't necessarily see on a day.
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And I did quite well. So I decided why not to try this
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course. So then I did 2 courses at the
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same time, which was quite a nightmare.
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But then I, I heard a friend of mine offered me a position at
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that very, very festival, theatre Festival.
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And that's how it started. So I first was just an
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administrator for the coming theatre companies which would
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come to Moscow and then I did a bit of logistics, hotel and
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travel and visas. And then I think in a few months
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they offered me a full time position being a producer of the
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ceremony award, which was a big, big step and big challenge for
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me because I was very young back then and it was a lot of
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responsibility. But it was amazing, mind
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blowing. What is it about managing
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projects that you particularly like, Anna?
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In our sector, it's never boring, I must say.
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So I just like this job to be very much alive.
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So you are challenged constantly and you grow with every project.
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Project and you are also surrounded, but so many by so
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many absolutely brilliant, outstanding people.
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I'm not not only talking about artists, I'm talking about
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producers, other product managers, technical teams.
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Everyone is so inspiring and so, so deeply involved in what they
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do and they love it so much. So it's a great place to be
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because it's constant inspiration.
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And I think also, since I work internationally, it's, I'm, I'm
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really very happy to, to be able to communicate with so many
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people. But not even, you know, it's not
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even about international work. It's it's about that you meet
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people from different backgrounds, cultural and you
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see how differently people work around the world, around the
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world, different approach. What's what's kind of jumping
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out at me is that both of you mentioned the people side of
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project management and there's a lot of discussion within the
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profession at the moment because you can have the technical
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skills, but it's the people side of things that is often the
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difference between a successful project and one that isn't so
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successful. So I think what I'd like to get
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your opinions on are like, what are the core project management
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skills that you need to be successful in your job?
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And perhaps we could start on the people side of things.
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If you, if you don't mind JC, do you want to, do you want to
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start a kind of discussion on that?
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Yeah, I think that kind of stakeholder management's really
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essential. So kind of understanding the
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people in the team, the people you're working with and how to
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balance kind of different needs and different perspectives that
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that people might have during the the project.
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So being able to talk to different people, talk their
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language and bring them together around kind of the project goal
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kind of really does make all of that that difference.
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And when I was doing things in the programme management office,
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we did a lot of work on kind of getting good project management
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data in getting tools, templates and getting things into a
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database. And it was really interesting.
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I was sold that as that would make your project management
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life easy because you could then focus on the kind of people side
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of project management, which is really where people are adding
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the value into into the day life.
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I'm going to pin you down because what you said was really
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interesting, but I'm sure it's much harder to achieve in daily
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life then then you say it sounds brilliant, but what have been
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the key lessons you've learnt about managing stakeholders and
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also about our guest managing a project team?
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What have you learned over the years that you'd do you wish
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you'd known when you were starting out?
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Yeah, I think there's kind of the the needs that people have
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in their role. So what do they need to do in
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terms of their role and their accountability.
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So what you're kind of what do you need to do as part of your
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job? And then the needs that they
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have as a person as well. So you might be communicating
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with them slightly differently because of who they are as a
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person or not because of the role.
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So spending a bit of time and getting to know people really
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does make life a lot easier, especially if you have to have
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those awkward conversations later on when things go go off
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track. So I always spend enough time at
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the start getting to know people, building the trust,
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getting the team to feel like they're a collection of people
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who want to work together so that when things get tough later
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on, it makes life a lot, lot easier.
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Sorry, how do you actually do that?
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Is it just like taking people out for a coffee or just like
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having a chat around the office? I don't know how much time you
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spend remote working because it is harder now that people aren't
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in the office the whole time. So that face to face kind of
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serendipitous conversations don't always happen.
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Have you got any tips about how to do what you suggest?
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Yeah, I think we've been trying because we all remote work.
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So actually we don't have that face to face opportunity so
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often. So people will be in the office
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occasion a bit very rarely and the whole team in doing things
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and then some people are working in different countries
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contributing to the project as well.
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So it's really hard to get that, that together.
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So we've been trying different things over the time.
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So trying to have good kick off meetings, trying to have
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brainstorming sessions, have kind of regular updates, have
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those kind of coffees and chats with people in kind of smaller
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groups. And I guess kind of just try to
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find a way to try and get it to work in a, in a remote
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environment. Definitely haven't found all the
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answers to all the questions. So yeah, it's always, always an
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experiment on how to do things differently each time.
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OK. Thanks Josie.
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Anna, what what would you say the core kind of people related
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project management skills that you need to have to be
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successful in a job like yours? It's interesting because jobs
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are so different, but what Josie mentioned about stakeholder
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communicate and communication and stakeholder engagement is
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exactly what I wanted to to bring.
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I completely agree that stakeholder management is most
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essential, I think in our sector, especially because you
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just need to translate from one language to another.
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I don't mean languages in a traditional convenient way, but
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from creative language into languages which other
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stakeholders would understand. Oh, OK.
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So, yeah, so I understand. So it's like the so for example.
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Yeah, as you say, the artists and the productions and all of
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that language that surrounds that world.
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And then you've got your world of getting stuff done through
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projects. Yeah.
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Yes, exactly. And I also think that you, you
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need to adjust your tone and your message to who you speak
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with because you will be speaking differently with
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artists and with some financial institution, government
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officials or I don't know, constructors, contractors,
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vendors, and every, every group has its own priorities.
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And that's why it's so important to bring the, bring them on onto
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the same page, but keeping in mind that everyone has
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different, different interests and you need to balance this and
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balance their expectations as well.
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And yes, communication, as I said, adjusting your message so
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that you are completely sure that everyone understands,
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really understands and not only lists, but he understands what
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you mean and what you want from them, especially
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internationally. We could even talk about, you
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know, keeping in mind that you work with different time zones.
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And if you send your message in the evening, someone might get
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it at 5:00 AM in the morning and get very upset because we never
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switch off our phones, for example.
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But this is a, this is just an example.
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And I think another important core skill is risk management,
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which I would also put here because we operate with life
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events mostly. And in life events you don't
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really have, you cannot postpone it.
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You almost never can, you know, delay our premiere.
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Of course you can, but it will be something extraordinary.
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So normally you operate in real, real time.
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And so risk management is are something absolutely crucial
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because you will not have the second chance to redo something
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and the more things you are able to anticipate and mitigate, the
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better the outcome will be. Josie, is there, is that
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something? I saw you nodding your head.
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Then it's risk obviously a kind of big factor you need to manage
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as well. Yeah, definitely.
17:01
So I think risks and assumptions actually are kind of 22 areas
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that I'd say are really important.
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So I think, as Anna said, kind of thinking about what risk
17:09
could happen and actually thinking in advance what you're
17:12
going to do when they go wrong. So when you're in the panic when
17:14
it goes wrong, you've kind of already got some strategies in
17:17
place that you might bring into play.
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Although I've never found any of the risks because I've actually
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played out how I've thought they're going to play out.
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But at least it kind of gives you a bit of a starting point to
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not be in too much of a kind of crazy state with things.
17:30
And then the assumptions. I think one of the big lessons
17:32
that we've learnt in our kind of R&D type projects is make sure
17:36
you challenge those really early on, try and get the team to to
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kind of feel comfortable saying what are they assuming and what
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you just assumed is going to be happening in the project because
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they're quite often the bits. Sorry, just could you give an
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example to bring that to life? Yeah.
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So I think we people would make assumptions on how easy things
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are. So we'd quite often have our
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product managers, we'll be the ones that are representing their
17:56
their customers and they'll be like, oh, we'd like this new
17:58
product to do this thing. And everyone just assumes it's
18:01
going to be really easy. And then the technical team
18:04
start looking into it and they'll say, actually, this is a
18:07
lot more harder than than we think.
18:08
It's going to be something that you thought was going to be two
18:10
months is going to take us two years.
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And if people don't feel comfortable kind of saying,
18:15
actually, I don't really agree with the, the sort of the, the
18:18
inputs that you're giving us, then you get into a lot of pain
18:21
later on because you start your project saying it's going to
18:23
take two months and it's still going to take you 2 years.
18:25
But no one ever brings it up at the start.
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That's really interesting point because that's sort of taps into
18:31
sort of optimism bias and that we are naturally more optimistic
18:34
about how much we can achieve and how quickly we can do it.
18:37
I was interested to pick up on something you just said around
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people being able to speak up about these things.
18:44
So to kind of mitigate risk, I, I guess it's about
18:49
understanding, curious, possible what, what's going on and what
18:55
could present itself as a, as a problem.
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And then if anything happens, knowing that people feel OK
19:01
about raising it. So have you got any advice to
19:05
people who the project managers or project leaders who want to
19:08
ensure, I guess it's a culture, a project team culture where
19:11
people feel empowered to do that?
19:13
Is there anything you've learnt or that you any advice you pass
19:16
on? So actually one of the programme
19:19
managers in my team, someone called Lucy, who it was great at
19:23
doing this. She was really good at kind of
19:24
bringing people together in a, in a safe space.
19:26
And she put a lot of time and energy into developing those
19:29
personal relationships with with people so that she could kind of
19:33
tell if they were not feeling comfortable.
19:34
And if they didn't bring it up during the session, she'd then
19:37
go and have a conversation afterwards and say, I can see
19:39
you were feeling a bit uneasy with that.
19:41
Do you want to tell me a bit more about it?
19:42
And then she would be their voice for them as well.
19:47
We deal with quite a lot of technical people as well.
19:49
So I guess stereotypically a bit more introverted than some other
19:53
people maybe. So found some of the online
19:55
tools that you can use. So online whiteboards are great
19:58
where people can just put post it notes up and don't have to
20:00
say anything. They can just put a post it note
20:02
with what they're worried about and then someone will take it
20:05
seriously and do something about it.
20:06
That's a great piece of advice. I haven't heard that before.
20:09
That's interesting. Can I ask you about the language
20:13
you use as well? So I mean, you do have a, a kind
20:17
of technical background. So I'm, I'm assuming you can
20:19
understand a lot of, of the kind of technical aspects of the
20:23
work, but no project manager can be expected to be an expert on,
20:27
on everything that's going on with the projects.
20:30
Have you what's what are your thoughts on the language of
20:32
project management and not necessarily being a kind of
20:36
subject expert and everything? Yeah, I think that's something
20:40
that I've seen kind of quite challenging for some of our
20:42
project managers in the team, because most of them have
20:44
actually come in from a technical background.
20:46
So quite often they've done them, they've done the work
20:48
before, They then manage the projects.
20:51
And so trying to keep them out of the details is quite often
20:53
the big, big challenge because they understand the language too
20:55
much when people are talking about it.
20:58
And so trying to get them to understand that they're not the
21:00
technical expert, there's other people who are playing that role
21:03
and they need to just be great at project management.
21:05
So kind of really focus on the planning, the risks, the
21:08
communications, and make sure they keep the team alive so they
21:10
can keep their technical experts free to focus on actually
21:13
getting the work done and doing what they're best at as well.
21:16
So I've actually tried breaking some of those kind of barriers
21:21
down by putting people into projects where they're, they're
21:24
not an expert in in the area. So actually all of a sudden
21:27
they're having to deal with project teams where they're
21:29
talking a different technical language.
21:31
Two things. So all of a sudden you're out of
21:33
your comfort zone. And so all you're doing is then
21:35
relying on your project management skills to get to get
21:38
things done. Are they happy about that or
21:40
that that must be quite a big shock to the system and then
21:43
figuring out how you go go forward with it.
21:46
Yes, I think we kind of set up a bit of a community within the
21:49
project managers so people could kind of share their experiences.
21:52
And if they were having some challenges, they could come
21:54
together and ask for a bit of advice and have kind of some
21:57
sessions together to talk about how they've dealt with different
21:59
problems in in the past as well. Particularly as we started
22:03
getting more involved in projects that did a lot more
22:05
software development. A lot of the project managers
22:08
come from quite a traditional project management background.
22:11
And then software engineers really want to work in a really
22:13
agile way. So blending those two worlds to
22:17
do what you needed to do to make sure you're predictably
22:19
delivering, but giving people the flexibility to work with
22:22
agility was quite a challenge. Any any lessons you learnt from
22:26
that about how to get that right?
22:29
So that was all about language and actually trying to get
22:31
people to stop fixating on the words that were being used and
22:34
try and understand the spirit of the conversation and understand
22:38
that all everyone wanted was to get get the work done, get the
22:40
work done well and get a product out to the customers.
22:43
So, yeah, we had a lot of time where people would get really
22:46
fixated on particular terms and it just kind of completely
22:49
blocked the activity that was going on.
22:52
So even using the word project became something that we kind of
22:55
had to shy away from. So we were doing lots of
22:56
initiatives for a while. Initiatives, I like that.
23:01
Are there any, Anna, are there any other core kind of project
23:04
management skills that that you really need to be successful
23:07
that in order to deliver a project well?
23:11
Yes, I of course, I think main would be you need to exceptional
23:16
scheduling skills and time management because it's, it is a
23:20
high, high paced, very intense environment with a lot of things
23:27
being on fire constantly and also you're constantly managing
23:31
creative chaos. If I, if I may, because artists
23:34
they don't necessarily, not necessarily they, they, they do
23:38
not operate in business terms. They, they are led by
23:43
inspiration. So you cannot feed them within
23:49
normal timelines and deadlines, although you have because you
23:53
are bridging them and reality. So I think you, you are the one
23:58
who is the main stabilising force and you need this
24:03
exceptional scheduling techniques, time management and
24:09
you need to optimise constantly and streamline everything,
24:13
communication, all the processes so that you move faster and the
24:19
more efficient, as efficient as you can, but at the same time
24:23
never at the expense of artists trust and artistic integrity and
24:29
quality of the final product. So I think this is the most
24:35
essential thing. JC What are the biggest kind of
24:40
project management challenges that you face in your in your
24:44
work? I think it's kind of interesting
24:47
kind of Anna talking about working with the people she does
24:50
with kind of being creative because actually lots of people
24:52
who are in R&D roles are creative, but obviously in a in
24:55
a slightly different way. So being able to find that
24:58
balance between long term innovation where people just
25:00
want to go and explore, don't want to be bound by any kind of
25:04
timelines or constraints. And they're being able to bring,
25:06
bring that in and rein that in when actually you need to start
25:08
thinking about when you're going to be delivering is a real
25:11
challenge. I think for for the project
25:13
managers. And I think being able to deal
25:15
with that kind of ambiguity and uncertainty that kind of starts
25:19
off with with some of the technical projects is is really
25:23
challenging. And I remember having a
25:24
conversation with someone in my team where they were just
25:27
telling me how I just couldn't possibly understand.
25:29
They couldn't be bound by by any time they just needed to, to go
25:33
off into the lab and explore. And how dare I ask them like
25:37
milestones and all of this for the plans.
25:39
And I was like, well, just tell me by this date if you can do it
25:41
or not. And you have to sort of balance
25:43
things in that way. And does that work for you?
25:45
So kind of being open to accommodate their needs and
25:50
their way of thinking, is that how you would approach it?
25:54
Yeah, I think it's, it's kind of recognising where you are in a
25:57
project and what what the kind of levy you need to be pulling
26:01
at one time. So there are those bits that the
26:03
kind of the fuzzy front end when people are trying to work out
26:05
how to how to get stuff done, where you need to give people
26:08
the opportunity to to go and explore but not get stuck down
26:11
any rabbit holes. And so I think it's a real skill
26:14
to kind of open, open things out and then get people to close
26:17
things down to start saying actually now this is what we're
26:19
actually going to be doing. And then at some point you need
26:22
to say, actually, you've been now going into delivery mode.
26:24
So we need to now start thinking about making those commitments,
26:28
hitting those timelines and actually getting things done
26:30
when we said we were going to get them done.
26:32
I'd like to ask both of you what are the most important lessons
26:36
you've learned around delivering successful projects?
26:41
Anna, what have you, If you could pass on one piece of
26:44
advice about how to deliver a project successfully in in the
26:48
broadest sense, what would you say?
26:52
My main thing is no assumptions, never assume anything and verify
26:58
verify everything and I learned it hard way.
27:02
How do you mean? That sounds interesting.
27:04
Can you give us this so I, I mean that we have this proverb
27:09
in my mother tongue. Trust but verify and it's, and
27:15
it's not really about it's not that I, I don't trust people,
27:18
but I am the one who is responsible for the final
27:21
results. So if if someone tells me that
27:25
they've done it million times or if something has worked for many
27:29
years, I would still check it. I would check all the
27:31
dependencies, I would check all the technical specifications.
27:35
I would ask millions of questions.
27:37
And sometimes people don't really like it.
27:40
But again, I learned hard way that something might not work
27:45
when you least expect it. So, and I think that's that's
27:51
again because because we deal with life events and if it
27:54
doesn't work in real time on stage there, there is no way to
28:00
to redo it. That's why it is so important.
28:04
So yeah, I think, I think that's that would be it.
28:08
Yeah. And what about EJC?
28:10
Any key kind of project management lessons you've picked
28:13
up? I think it's understanding kind
28:16
of the role accountabilities that go with things.
28:18
So actually I'm going to probably say the opposite to
28:19
Anna. And probably because we're in a
28:21
an environment where actually things can go wrong and you've
28:24
got time to to do something about them is I think
28:28
challenging those assumptions is really important, but also
28:31
making sure people feel accountable for their part of
28:33
the project management jigsaw as well, so.
28:36
How do you do that? How do you actually make that
28:38
happen in practise? So we, we spent a lot of time
28:41
actually defining kind of some key roles and kind of rolling
28:44
those out across the project. So we created the concept of a
28:47
project leadership team where there were kind of key, key
28:50
roles that people would be stepping into in addition to
28:52
them actually doing some of the work as well.
28:54
So you may be the technical lead on the project, which means
28:57
you'd have certain accountabilities that would
28:59
would go alongside it. So we tried to make it really
29:01
clear what that meant and what was expected from you.
29:04
And then also working with kind of the people managers, so the
29:08
team leaders to make sure they were on understanding that they
29:11
were accountable for delivering the tasks and making sure the
29:14
task got done so that all the projects could come together
29:16
because there were lots of different streams all happening
29:19
at the same time. OK, thank you.
29:22
What about you, Anna? Any any key other key project
29:25
management lessons you'd pass on?
29:29
I, I would still talk about building relationships because I
29:33
think it's so, so important. It's not about, it's not
29:36
communication, it's not soft skill in, in this industry.
29:40
I think it's an infrastructure you work in and it's, it's so
29:46
important and you never know when you will need this
29:50
particular person again. And the more, the more your
29:54
network is the better. And it's in a way building these
29:58
relationships is risk mitigation.
30:02
And I just wanted to follow up on all what Josie said about
30:05
responsibility and accountability.
30:08
I think the, the main difference here is that creative talents
30:12
they are accountable for create for creative outcome.
30:17
They don't need, they are brilliant in a different way.
30:19
They don't need to think about all these sort of things, risks,
30:24
schedules, because they need to have this mental space to create
30:29
beautiful pieces of art. And that's why you as a project
30:34
manager and maybe technical director as well, that's who are
30:39
responsible for, for the final outcome in terms of that,
30:43
everything runs smoothly. But you cannot, it's
30:46
responsibility onto, onto creative people because it's not
30:49
really their responsibility. At the same time, you don't
30:52
control, they don't, they're not involved in what you control,
30:57
but you don't control creative talent as well.
30:59
And you this is another specific.
31:02
You don't control the creative outcome in this project.
31:06
It's really interesting out of on that one because I think a
31:08
lot of the time that we spend in our project teams is trying to
31:11
make the team feel like they're A-Team.
31:13
So actually people would be talking to people about risks
31:15
all the time. And so I'm wondering whether
31:17
that's taking up a lot of mental capacity for some of the
31:20
technical experts who should be thinking about other things when
31:22
actually we're asking them to think about all these risks that
31:25
might not happen. So yeah, might take that one
31:27
back into the team. OK, that's good to hear.
31:29
Is part of what you need to do it is, is it to sell the
31:35
benefits of project management? Because there are project
31:38
managers who, I mean, you set up a programme office, Josie, in a
31:43
place that never had one. And I've spoken to other people
31:46
where they've had to formalise project management within the
31:49
organisation. And often they can be met with
31:51
some scepticism or hostility because you're seeing it as
31:56
people who might complicate things or get people involved in
32:00
horrendous Gantt charts. When in fact, what the people
32:04
I've, I've I've spoken to have been successful are the ones who
32:06
just say I'm going to make your life easier.
32:08
You don't need to worry about these things.
32:10
So these are the benefits I'll give you as as project manager.
32:13
Is that something that you've needed to do or thought about?
32:18
Yeah, definitely found when the programme management office
32:21
initially got created, there was quite a lot of resistance to it.
32:24
And all the things you've just said is they heard the term
32:26
project management and assumed that was going to be more admin,
32:29
more hoops they had to jump through, through more process
32:32
that was going to get implemented.
32:34
And so to try and overcome that, we kind of really focused on
32:36
having just enough process and kind of being a little bit
32:39
sneaky about bringing some processes in.
32:41
So the project managers will be getting data from the project
32:44
teams without sitting them down in front of a big Gantt chart or
32:47
massive Excel spreadsheet. So they'd kind of go and try and
32:50
collect the data secretly rather than have these big meetings
32:54
where you'd be going through all of those those things.
32:57
And we were definitely trying to sell it on the volume what good
33:00
project management brings. So if you can get the project
33:04
managers doing their job so what's asked of them, you can
33:07
actually start seeing that delivery starts going up.
33:10
Conversations that needed to happen early on start to happen
33:14
early on, and then stress is reduced for like the whole team.
33:17
So kind of found after a few runs of a few projects, people
33:21
started getting on board with it pretty quickly because I saw it
33:23
actually made their life easier. And we actually even got to the
33:26
point where people started asking for project managers to
33:29
start getting involved in projects because they saw it as
33:31
someone who was helping those wheels keep on turning.
33:33
That was made you very happy to have that it.
33:36
Was, but then you start having conversations about where does,
33:38
where is a project manager needed?
33:40
And it's project managers are not task managers.
33:42
And so if you're just doing some tasks, then people can just get
33:45
on and do that themselves. So trying to say the project
33:47
managers value is when you've got these very kind of complex
33:49
projects where multiple things are coming together across
33:52
different functions and that will need to happen at the same
33:54
time. It's not just about kind of
33:56
managing someone's day-to-day tasks.
33:59
And so that kind of ties into kind of scope creep because that
34:02
that's a common problem as well. Have you got any advice about
34:05
how to manage that? Is it just being very upfront
34:07
about what you can and cannot help with?
34:11
Yeah, I think it's definitely saying this is, this is what we
34:15
think the role is and this is what we're going to be be doing.
34:18
And then if someone asks something to be done that's not
34:20
as part of that being very transparent about about I'm not
34:25
doing it. I always have conversations with
34:26
the project managers that it's better to have an awkward
34:28
conversation early. So if someone says I'd like you
34:31
to do this thing and you don't think you should be doing it,
34:33
have that awkward conversation early because it's going to be a
34:35
horrible conversation later on when someone's assumed that
34:37
you've been doing all the stuff for them that you haven't
34:39
actually been doing. Yeah, that's that's a good
34:41
point. Anna, was there anything you
34:43
wanted to? Add Yeah, I actually wanted to
34:46
add about this scope creep because I think this is another
34:50
quite challenging but a different thing to talk about.
34:54
So when somebody, I mean, create creative, your creative talent
35:00
brings you an absolutely brilliant idea, you know, two
35:04
weeks before the before the show and everything is already
35:08
settled budget, you don't have time, but you just simply cannot
35:12
say no because you understand that it might elevate the whole
35:16
performance. And that's how inspiration
35:18
works. So I think it, it is essential
35:22
in, in, in my role that I find the way to do that.
35:27
It's not, it's not always easy, but scope is very much fluid in
35:33
creative arts and I think I always just keep it in mind.
35:36
So probably I have some contingency plans for that and
35:41
and I might reduce something else and I, I might fight find
35:44
the ways to make it work and I need to balance it with the time
35:50
constraints and budget constraints.
35:52
So I would probably reduce how much something else costs, you
35:57
know, manufacturing or I, I would probably cut some, some
36:02
other pieces entirely. But I will be able to fit this
36:05
new idea into into my schedule and into my budget if we all
36:11
understand that this is really important.
36:14
JC I'm particularly interested in asking you about any career
36:19
advice because you're a kind of project manager, programme
36:22
manager. He's moved into a broader
36:24
business role as as part of the senior leadership team.
36:28
And this is really an ambition for the profession that project
36:31
management as a career can really set you up to be
36:34
successful in a broader business capacity and, and at a higher
36:38
level. So 2 questions really.
36:41
What advantages has a career in project management brought to
36:44
you and how have you managed to step up into a kind of broader
36:49
business role? And any advice?
36:51
That's three questions, sorry. And any advice you'd you'd pass
36:54
on to people who have the ambition to do that too?
36:59
Yes, I think the nice thing about rojects is you see how
37:02
different bits of the business work and how different bits of
37:04
the businesses work together and how it starts to fit.
37:08
And then because you're working with different people in
37:10
different areas, you start understanding how to manage
37:12
those different stakeholders who who've got those different
37:15
needs. So I think learning how to set
37:17
that clear direction, which is what you're doing in in your
37:19
projects, how you start kind of bridging any of those silos that
37:22
always exist within any big organisation.
37:25
And then start building that environment where people
37:27
actually really enjoy being part of the project team and they
37:29
feel confident and supported. I think has really set me up for
37:32
the leadership roles that I've been moving around with within
37:35
the the organisation. So really kind of learning how
37:38
to lead disparate teams that don't directly report to you so
37:41
that they can pull together around a common goal is really
37:43
key. So you've got that kind of broad
37:46
perspective, but what what are those new skills you need to
37:49
develop or understand that you need to attain in order to move
37:54
into a broader business role? And I think I've spent quite a
37:59
lot of effort personally kind of building my network within in
38:02
the organisation and getting people to see the the kind of
38:05
things I'm good at doing. So putting kind of my skill set
38:08
forward. I'm someone who really likes
38:10
creating structure within organisations and when sort of a
38:14
transformation needs to happen, that's where I really enjoy sort
38:17
of spending my time. So getting people to see how I
38:20
think, how I do things, how I execute on project activities
38:24
has been really important as as part of kind of moving up and
38:29
moving in in the room. And then over the past couple of
38:31
years, I've always taken the mantra kind of just say yes when
38:34
an opportunity arises. So even if it seems really
38:38
daunting, just kind of step into it and embrace it.
38:41
And nothing has gone Touchwood terribly wrong for me so far.
38:45
So the role I'm in now, I don't have any commercial experience.
38:49
It's a bit of the business that I don't understand but really
38:52
keen to learn and really keen to expand and grow my skills and
38:56
knowledge of how things work. Joe Well, that's really
38:58
interesting you say, because it's International Women's Day
39:01
this week and you're both great role models of women who are
39:06
successfully in project management in very different
39:08
sectors. But JC, what you were just
39:10
saying then about saying yes. So I know this, there's been
39:14
research done about women and more reluctant to say yes to
39:19
opportunities that they're not sure about, whereas men can be
39:22
overconfident and just jump in and, and do it.
39:26
I mean, not sure I'll ask, I'll ask both of you how, how
39:29
important is it to celebrate International Women's Day?
39:32
But also how important is, is it to acknowledge the, that you are
39:38
a female in, in this environment?
39:40
And it has that been anything that's been beneficial,
39:43
disadvantageous to, to either of you?
39:45
And any advice to, to women who want to get ahead in the sectors
39:49
you work in? So again, I'm sorry, that's like
39:51
3 questions in one, but I don't know who'd like to go first.
39:55
I'm happy to go first. I think yes, in a natural it is
39:59
very important to celebrate it and but not as a symbolic
40:03
gesture. I think it's just another,
40:06
another opportunity to raise awareness about about this
40:11
because we still have this still have this representation
40:15
problem. And the more visible we make it,
40:19
the more we talk about this, I think the better.
40:22
But at the same time. The real work of course happens
40:25
during the rest of the year of 364 Days and when I joined Whip
40:33
Them, I think I was just so inspired by examples of women
40:38
from different industries leading great projects, thinking
40:42
strategically and supporting each other and learning from
40:47
each other and sharing experience so that I just
40:52
realise how important it is to to feel supported.
40:57
And it's not. Sometimes it's not even about
40:59
opportunities, but it's about being able to share your
41:03
concerns and some problems that you might have on the way.
41:11
Something like APM draws people from so many different sectors
41:16
and backgrounds. Often you you can face similar
41:19
problems, but people have found different ways of tackling them
41:22
which would never have you never have thought about.
41:25
It's just because they come with very different perspective on on
41:28
things. Yeah, I agree.
41:32
I think even the conference that APM and Whipam holds every,
41:37
every March, I think it's on the 6th of March this year.
41:41
I attended the IT last year and it was absolutely amazing how
41:45
many women come there from completely different sectors.
41:48
But we see that the problems we are facing are they are pretty
41:54
much the same and it's so important to share, to network
41:57
and to say it out loud what you are dealing with and find
42:02
support. OK.
42:03
Thanks. Josie.
42:04
What would you like to add? Yeah, I, I agree that I think
42:09
it's really nice to have kind of International Women's Day to
42:11
kind of give that visibility to people.
42:13
So to kind of really put those role models into the spotlight
42:15
so that people can see that there are people who were kind
42:18
of really pushing, pushing the boundaries and kind of driving
42:20
change and challenging the status quo.
42:23
But also agree with Anna that it does need to be that kind of all
42:26
year round activity. So not just action on, on, on
42:30
that one day. And also agree with Anna around
42:33
the work that Wickham does to kind of really kind of women in
42:36
the spotlight in in project management.
42:38
I think it's really important to to have that consistent message
42:42
that's that's coming out. But I think International
42:44
Women's Day is great to actually have that kind of official day
42:46
where you can put the spotlight really brightly on people.
42:49
OK, thanks. Finally, I wanted to ask you
42:53
about the future of project management.
42:54
So do you, do you kind of more personally, do you visit a
43:01
future where project management does become even more
43:04
transferable so that you, you would feel happy about jumping
43:08
into a completely different sector?
43:10
I think that's can be challenging to people.
43:13
And I think that that perhaps is going to be the future of
43:17
project management because it's a desperate kind of skills
43:19
shortage for kind of project managers in every field.
43:23
But just your it might be nice just to wrap up by asking you
43:26
what what what you think the future holds and do you think
43:30
that you would ever jump into a completely different sector?
43:35
Yeah, So I think, I think for me, so I've done some talks
43:38
previously about how being a scientist sets you up really
43:41
well for a kind of a career in in project management and how
43:44
all the things I learned when I was training as a chemist
43:46
basically set you up to do project management.
43:49
I can see doing other talks now about how coming from a project
43:51
management background really sets you up for senior
43:54
leadership positions as well. So you can see how all of those
43:58
skills and people management and all of that really helps, helps
44:02
with things. What I've kind of been seeing in
44:04
our company is we're doing lots of change.
44:07
We've got lots of change we need to make in the organisation to,
44:10
to really drive growth and sell, sell more kind of products to
44:13
our to our customers. And I think project management's
44:16
really key for that because when you're actually trying to do
44:18
something different and bringing together cross functional groups
44:21
of people that don't always work together is really important to
44:26
kind of overcome those real traditional hierarchical
44:28
functional structures that often exist.
44:31
And so I think if you want to deliver things more efficiently,
44:33
more predictably and doing things a bit quicker as well, I
44:36
think having projects and project management really is key
44:39
to doing that. But I can also see the role of
44:42
project managers changing quite a lot as well.
44:45
So a lot and more with all the kind of AI and all the kind of
44:47
automations that are coming through, you can see that a lot
44:50
of the admin tasks that people traditionally associate with
44:53
project management becoming a lot more automated.
44:56
And so project managers then need to start focusing on the
44:58
more human side of project management.
45:00
And we've talked about that quite a lot today already.
45:03
So pulling people together, keeping them motivated and
45:05
making sure kind of stay focused on delivering those outcomes
45:08
will become the kind of the key to success for a really strong
45:11
project manager. JC that's amazing.
45:14
I it's almost as though I put the words I wanted to convey
45:17
into your house. That's fantastic.
45:19
Thank you. Anna.
45:21
What? What would you like to say?
45:24
Yeah, I completely agree with Josie because we're leaving such
45:28
uncertain times and not only with the, you know, technology
45:32
transforming and AI and everything Josie mentioned, but
45:35
also geopolitical. You, you basically you never
45:38
know what, what will be tomorrow.
45:40
So the, the period of time you can plan ahead getting shorter
45:46
and shorter, I guess. So it's just natural that
45:51
organisations are trying to build teams around very specific
45:56
goals rather than this heavy structures which are hardly
46:01
being moved. And I do also agree that all
46:04
that can be done by AI will be done by AI in terms of
46:09
reporting, tracking, all the scheduling and planning.
46:12
So all these technical skills I think will become less
46:16
important. What is still very much
46:21
important and to what AI cannot do yet, I hope will not be able
46:26
to do is the human connection and all the communication
46:32
strategies and ability to bring all the people together, find
46:38
the common ground and leadership.
46:41
Being able to lead people. But towards 1 common goal I I
46:45
think will be even more and more important.
46:48
So everything related to human connections are are that that's
46:53
where the future is. Thanks, Hannah.
46:56
That's a kind of nice upbeat way to end this.
47:00
And I just wanted to thank both of you so much for your advice
47:04
and insight into both of you. Well, so thanks very much.
47:07
Thank you. Thank you.
47:10
So that just leaves me to thank Josie and Anna for joining us
47:13
and to you for listening to the APM podcast.
47:16
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47:19
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