Latest / True Comfort / Suffering Leads Bible Scholar to Give Up, But Not on God or His Truth - with Douglas Groothuis

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Suffering Leads Bible Scholar to Give Up, But Not on God or His Truth - with Douglas Groothuis · True Comfort

• Teasi (00:00) Hi, I'm Teasi and I want to welcome you to true comfort where it's our desire to live out 2nd Corinthians chapter 1 verses 3 and 4 which encourage us to know that we have a God who is with us and comforts us in all our afflictions and encourages us to take the comfort we've received and share it with others. And I also want to welcome my guest, Dr. Douglas Groothuis. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Doug G (00:31) You're welcome. I'm happy to be here. Teasi (00:33) So it is an honor to have you and I want to just, I'm gonna read a little bit of your official bio just so I don't mess it up. And I know this is so abbreviated, but I wanna read this. So Dr. Groothuis is a distinguished university research professor of apologetics and Christian worldview at Cornerstone University and Cornerstone Theological Seminary. He's the author of 20 books and I'm sure many more to come such as Christian Apologetics, and many academic and popular articles and reviews. He hosts a weekly podcast called Truth Tribe on Life Audio and frequently speaks at churches and conferences around the country. So you are a Bible scholar, a theologian, a philosopher, and an apologist. And I mean, I'm just wondering, did you always know that you wanted to pursue Christian scholarship? What motivated you to? just plunge deeply into all that. Doug G (01:32) It basically emerged after I converted to Christianity in June of 1976. I was 19 and I had studied philosophy and religion to some extent at that point and realized that Jesus was the way, the truth and the life. I felt like I was like at a fork in the road and it was Jesus and no other option. So I confess Christ as Lord and This is not maybe the greatest testimony, but I was pretty miserable for three or four months because ⁓ I didn't have a big conversion experience the way some of my friends did. I believe Jesus was Lord and I wanted to live for Him, but I really didn't know how to think well. I had started studying philosophy and some pretty bad philosophy like Frederick Nietzsche and Karl Marx. and I had been looking into religions like Hinduism and Buddhism and even some strange paranormal experiences like out of the body travels and so on. So when I became a Christian I knew that everything had to change but I didn't quite know how to as Paul put it take every thought captive to obey Christ but the turning point was really a few months later when I went to the University of Oregon And I found this book by Francis Schaeffer called The God Who Is There, which is about explaining, commending and defending the Christian faith to the modern world. It was written in 1968. And that book just opened up the whole world of apologetics to me. That we didn't have to be afraid of non-Christian philosophies. could critique contemporary cinema, poetry. Schaeffer was fearless and he did it because he loved people. saw people without meaning, without hope, and without despair. So he, with despair, so without Christ. He wanted to bring the living truth of the gospel to people. So I ended up going into philosophy, got a bachelor's degree in philosophy. 1979, went into campus ministry for five years and then We'll talk about her. Obviously, Rebecca married my first wife in 1984, eventually got a master's degree, went back into campus ministry, and then got a PhD in philosophy from the University of Oregon in 1993. And I spent most of my professional career at Denver Seminary. I was there from 1993 to 2024. I've been at Cornerstone University and Cornerstone Theological Seminary just since last fall. So I think I knew fairly early on that God had called me to study and teach and preach and write and mentor. So that's the path that I've taken over these years and very few people really have the opportunity to study and write as much as I have over my... I've been a Christian for 49 years. So I really applied myself to try to understand what is the biblical worldview? What does the Bible teach? How do people oppose it, whether it's Islam or atheism or Mormonism or whatever it is, and then try to develop a reason for the hope that we have, which is basically the discipline of apologetics. Teasi (05:14) Well, thank you for all of that. Thank you for all those years for choosing that path because I will say I have no doubt that you are encouraging countless people and I am one of them and I just want to say just on a personal note how much I've appreciated your just your ministry, but also just Your vulnerability just the way you present yourself online and I want to highly encourage everyone to follow you Doug G (05:27) Mm. Teasi (05:44) you and find you. I will include ways to find you in the show notes. But just I think in I this is hope you'll take this the right way. But it's like with all that knowledge with all that your intellect and your brilliance. It's as if your head really is just way up here compared to mine or many of us. But your heart just stays at the sidewalk level. And I really love that. I hope that makes sense. It's just you present yourself ⁓ without walls of self-protection. another thing that I really appreciate ⁓ of your ministry is your book, Walking Through Twilight, which I know we'll talk about probably and I want you to share about. But that book, which I also highly recommend, actually pastored me. It pastored me through one of the darkest seasons of my life, walking my mom home with Alzheimer's. And I won't ever Doug G (06:32) Mmm. Teasi (06:43) I can't thank you enough for your obedience, but I love how in the introduction of that book, you take time to share not only your philosophy of writing that particular book, but your philosophy of writing anything you write. And I just appreciate that it isn't, you mentioned that you're not writing just to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak, or to build a big personal platform and be the Doug G (06:44) Hmm. Teasi (07:13) stuff you know but that you truly write when God puts it on your heart for the purposes of building up the body of Christ and helping others find ⁓ hope that they can cling to. so I want to thank you for that. And it actually leads me to the heart of our main conversation today. And so on each of the episodes, I intend to invite a Christian apologist to come share with the rest of us just to open their heart, his or her heart, for us to share about a season in their life where they were walking through deep personal pain or confusion or heartbreak of some sort. And then share with us the truth, the hope that you found in God's word, what that truth is, and then also just a bit, I mean, at a lay level, how the evidence you've studied substantiates that. And my hope is that everyone who's listening will see we are not alone in our pain, that we will find ⁓ encouragement in God's word and also feel equipped. and built up in our own confidence that as you said, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And so with that, I am just going to thank you again for being willing to open your heart and share your wisdom with us. And I'm gonna just let you kind of start wherever you feel led to start. Doug G (08:28) you Sure. Yeah. Well, you're very welcome. I'm glad that my book has helped a lot of people. In fact, 15 minutes before we went on, I got a text message from one of my Facebook friends and he said, my wife has a terminal disease and I know that you've been through this with Becky. Do you have any insights you could offer me? So I thought of a few things and I recommended my book, Walking Through Twilight. He may have already read it. But I also want to have a Zoom session with him and just try to help him and encourage him. And authors write so people will read their books. ⁓ authors always want their books to sell a lot of copies. I'll let you in on a little secret here. And it's interesting, my book, Walking Through Twilight, has really not sold very well. It's a little bit of a disappointment. But it's not a disappointment in terms Teasi (09:24) Yeah. Doug G (09:37) of quality. ⁓ It is in quantity, but I have had so many people who have said that your book helped me through my wife's dementia or losing a mom in your case. And I'm very grateful to the Lord for that. And it was certainly the book I never wanted to write. ⁓ So maybe I can just talk about how the book got started and then tell you a little bit. Teasi (09:39) Mm. Hmm. Doug G (10:07) about the story of ⁓ Rebecca, but I was on campus at Denver Seminary a number of years ago and the then editor of Christianity Today was on campus and he walked by and introduced himself, Mark Galley, and he said, Doug, I've heard your wife has dementia and it's so sad. Would you consider writing an article for Christianity Today about your journey with Rebecca? And Rebecca Murrell-Groathuis was an author and editor, brilliant woman. very gifted. And I said, well, Mark, that's very nice of you to ask, but probably not. I'd rather not write about it. And then I went back to my office and sat down at my computer. within about an hour, I had written most of an article and I worked on it a little bit more, it in. It was published. And at that point, this was about 2015, I think, 2016. I had probably been having things published for almost 40 years, 35, 40 years. And that one article received more responses than anything I had ever written, easily. And I got three offers to write books about it, three different publishers. And my first response again was, I don't think I want to write about this. Teasi (11:17) Smile. Doug G (11:32) And I decided that I would. went with my tried and true publisher, InterVarsity. They published my first book. They published many of my books more than any other publisher. So I decided to write a book about this. And I was very reluctant, I think for two main reasons. One, I think there are too many memoirs. I think people are way too caught up in themselves. Why should I learn about your life? Maybe I don't need to know. ⁓ Teasi (11:57) Yeah Doug G (12:02) You know, I'm reluctant to write a memoir and there have been some bad ones out there like Blue Like Jazz, but we won't go into that. That book did a lot of damage. And also, of course, the subject was so raw and difficult, but I'm a writer. I mean, that's what I do. And the way I live my life is in terms of words, sentences, paragraphs, chapters. So when I started to write the book, it was almost like the book was already written. And the book, as I put it in the book, I said, this is a book I didn't want to write, but it wanted to be written. So it was extremely difficult to live through that experience. However, in some ways it was not that difficult to write the book itself. It's kind of odd the way it worked out. But I realized that when Becky and I would be going through some terrible experience or some experience in which the Lord comforted us. that the words were already there, basically. And when I was writing the book, I ⁓ surprised myself quite a bit. In fact, when I go back and reread passages, I just read the final chapter today before we went on, I thought, gosh, I wrote that. That's pretty good. So, you know, some people will say, well, Doug, did you write it? Teasi (13:18) You Doug G (13:26) therapeutically, you know, was it kind of your way of coping through this and Oddly, I'd have to say no, it wasn't it was an offering it was an offering to people who would be suffering in similar ways and There are some great notable Memoirs of lament out there. Probably the most famous would be C.S. Lewis's a grief observed losing his wife. Joy David men and Nicholas Wolterstorff who wrote the forward to my book, ⁓ called the Men for a Son, which came out I think in 1987. Teasi (14:04) Mm. Doug G (14:08) I decided to write the book and I had never written anything that personal or that autobiographical, but I had chosen to share a lot of my grief online through Facebook as Becky was ill and declining. And I wanted to be careful. I didn't want to reveal too much, but at the same time, I thought that if I revealed some of the struggles and difficulties and anguish I was going through. that people might be able to resonate with it and sort of walk through this with me. And I received a lot of responses even just to my Facebook posts about Becky and the kind of experiences we had. So ⁓ I guess to pick it up about 2014, Rebecca was diagnosed after years of very strange cognitive symptoms. as having something called primary progressive aphasia, which is a very rare form of dementia. Most people have never heard of it. In fact, when Becky was diagnosed and the psychiatrist told me she had this, I said, what's that? Because most people think of Alzheimer's or we body dementia or vascular dementia or something like that. So Rebecca and I had gone to a neurologist for a whole year for her cognitive symptoms. Teasi (15:13) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doug G (15:36) And he said, ⁓ it's not dementia. I know it's not dementia because she's too insightful. She still had a good sense of humor. ⁓ She had that right up until a week before she died and she couldn't communicate at all. But he didn't have the toolkit complete with enough diagnostic materials. So eventually she was diagnosed after actually a hospital stay in a psychiatric unit. Teasi (15:45) you Mm-hmm. Doug G (16:05) of having this. And when I found out what it was, ⁓ a verse from Ecclesiastes came to me, which was very profound. And I really lived in Ecclesiastes for decades. And it was from Ecclesiastes three, there's a time to give up. And I realized that I would not give up on my wife or God, but I was giving up on her being healed in this life. And we had pursued healing for her. had been chronically ill for many years. We tried every kind of doctor, every kind of alternative remedy. And I realized, I think we just need to hunker down and try to do the best we can to help her go through this journey. So that was early 2014. And are so many things to talk about. Maybe just to bring in apologetics right away, I'll tell you a story that somehow didn't make it into the book. I don't really know why, because I think it's one of the most profound stories, but we were driving to go out to dinner. We lived in Denver, Colorado, actually, in Highlands Ranch. And we had gone to Olive Garden for years. I'm a big Olive Garden fan. ⁓ Teasi (17:22) Bread, breadsticks and salad. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Doug G (17:24) That's right. Becky and I used to say, good old Olive Garden. mean, you can always depend on it and you won't go broke going there. So we were driving there and she could still go out and have dinner and she could feed herself and chat a little bit. And she was really extremely down, almost in despair. And I said, Becky, one day we will be in the new heavens and the new earth and we'll be. without pain, without tears, can dance and sing. And she looked at me with these huge eyes and said, but Doug, is it really true? And I immediately said something that kind of surprised me. And she had been a Christian since she was a little girl, never really had any major crisis of faith. And I said, Becky, do you think I'm smart? And I was very relieved when she said yes. And ⁓ I knew she'd say yes. Teasi (18:02) Hmm. Doug G (18:23) And I said, Becky, do you remember that big book that you edited, that big apologetics book called Christian Apologetics? She said, I do remember editing that. I said, I assure you that what we believe is true. You went through everything in that book. There is ample reason to believe, and I'm expanding on what I said at the time, that what we believe is true. And she kind of nodded and we had a nice dinner. Now, I think that's so significant because at that time, neither one of us felt any great sense of inner peace. We didn't have this, you know, deep sense that God was right there holding us, anything like that. was Christianity is true. So therefore we can get through this and the end of the story is better than what the story feels like right now. And I shared that a lot with people. Teasi (18:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doug G (19:19) because it combines the intellectual and the existential so powerfully that we have all these promises in scripture. Think of Revelation 21 and 22, the joys and wonder of the new heavens and the new earth. And that experience will be like a city, a temple. garden. It's all combined, all these images and metaphors going on. And we have reason to believe that, in fact, this will happen because Jesus lived and died and rose again and ascended. And he's at the right hand of the Father. And he will come again to renew all things, as he says in Matthew 19, 28, I believe it is. So this is not just a happy thought to get us through the day. It wasn't some kind of ⁓ Teasi (19:56) Mm-hmm. Doug G (20:08) you know, mindfulness where you just have this happy thought that crowds out the bad thoughts. I this is deep, rational, intellectual conviction of the objective truth of the Christian message. And the way I sometimes put it is that Becky and I had worked very hard at understanding and defending our Christian worldview for about, at that point, I guess about 30 years. Teasi (20:12) Yeah. Doug G (20:37) Because when I first met Becky, we were both in campus ministry and she knew that I wanted to write a book on the New Age Movement, but I had not yet started writing it. And she said, Doug, you know more about the New Age Movement than anybody in America. I hope she was right. It may be close. And she said, if you start writing it, I'll help you edit it. Because she was on campus, she was with the campus ministry as a editor and writer. And so I started writing it. Teasi (20:54) Yeah. Doug G (21:07) and she edited it and we developed this writer-editor relationship that went until 2010 which was when I finished the ⁓ manuscript for my book Christian Apologetics which was the first edition came out in 2011 and there's another really interesting thing that happened we didn't know what Becky's condition was until 2014 but the symptoms had been there for quite some time Forgetfulness the inability to do certain simple things find words things like that, but We had a really tough time I'd say October through December of 2010 my mother was dying I was having some struggles at work a colleague had Shall we say freaked out and I had to take over his? Teaching responsibilities and Becky was still struggling with multiple problems and at one point We were finishing up this manuscript and the first edition was 750 pages and she was editing everything and it was so grueling and exhausting and frustrating. said, Becky, I know you make me a better writer and a better thinker, but I think you just need to stop and I'll finish it by myself. And she looked at me and said, Doug, this is not about you. Teasi (22:12) Wow. Doug G (22:33) I make you a better writer and a better thinker and I'm going to edit every page of this book." And that was the last editing she ever did because she couldn't edit after that. Mentally it was impossible. So eventually she lost her ability to read, to write. Aphasia means the inability to speak. So this kind of dementia affects speech. goes. Teasi (22:41) Wow. Doug G (22:59) I believe it goes from the front of the brain to the back and I believe Alzheimer's is the opposite. Don't quote me on that, but the symptom pattern is different. And with the kind of dementia that Becky had, if there was a blessing in it, it was she knew who I was right up until the end. She didn't forget who I was. you know, I'm not sure how it worked with your mom, but um, Teasi (23:04) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doug G (23:27) it can be so hard when your loved ones don't recognize you anymore. mean, wow. That never happened with Becky. I mean, there were all kinds of other horrible losses. ⁓ But she was not able to edit anything after that book. And I've written a lot since then. always writing. My present wife, Kathleen, says, Doug, you're not happy unless you're writing. Teasi (23:53) Mm. Doug G (23:54) But often when I'm writing, I look at a paragraph and I think, what would Becky think about that? What would she take? You know, she was so skilled. The worst editing mark, and we did this old school, I'd print out and she would write the comments on the manuscripts. The worst possible comment was question mark. What are you talking about? Teasi (23:59) Wow. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So what a gift to have that, you you two working together for so so many years. I ⁓ I'm sure that that last book where she edited that was just I mean, it sounds you say it like well, and that was the last book she edited, but I'm sure that that Doug G (24:35) It was. Teasi (24:38) I mean, that's a deep loss. ⁓ It's a significant change in your life. Doug G (24:41) It was, yeah, it was because, you know, from 1983 until 2010, I'd say 98 % of everything I had published, she edited. And there were a few things that I had published without her editing it. And then she'd look at it when she went to get published and say, Doug, look at that. If I had been there, you wouldn't have made that mistake. Teasi (25:06) gosh. Doug G (25:08) So we had a very close relationship intellectually. Of course, we had a close relationship emotionally and existentially. And she was an extremely fine writer herself. She wrote two books, Women Caught in the Conflict and Good News for Women. She wrote a number of articles. She co-edited a major volume called Discovering Biblical Equality. She was also a very gifted poet. I have one of her poems in the book called risen wounded one and she was a singer. She had a beautiful voice. In fact, one of her solos was from way back from 1980 was preserved on tape and it was put onto a DVD and we were able to play it at her funeral service. And it was very, very profound. Teasi (25:56) Nice, that's beautiful. Well, well, I know, mean, so as you mentioned, my mom, and for those who don't know the story, my mom did have Alzheimer's and a couple of other dementias. I never knew that there are actually like 80 plus forms of dementia ⁓ and Alzheimer's is one of them, but. Doug G (26:14) you know. Teasi (26:19) I think your journey and what you shared and just so much in detail in your book was such a blessing because, and I just want to share a specific part that really, really was a lifeline for me. Just you didn't, even so you know, and another reason why, even though you might not have sold many copies, this was a lifeline for me because you start by talking about ⁓ the, having to take your wife to the psychiatric facility. And I had to do that with my mom. I mean, I had to take her to a facility that, you you describe, you know, what that facility looked like and what that was like. And that was one of the most painful things I've ever done in my life, honestly, like leaving my mom there. Doug G (27:12) Yeah. Teasi (27:12) And it didn't even end up, I love that it went, those facilities can do wonderful things for many people who are going through different types of dementia, just getting their meds right and figuring out how to make their life best, but it did not, it backfired for my mom and it was just really bad. reading, it was like I wasn't alone and I was reading your, knowing you're a scholar, knowing you're a philosopher, knowing that. Doug G (27:24) Right. Teasi (27:37) you're an apologist and seeing your vulnerability was just such a blessing to me and So I just you know again just want to say for anyone who's walking a loved one through any type of dementia this book is a must-read just for the the wisdom and your input your and you know philosophical input and all of that so And I could say so much more, but it's not fun. Doug G (28:04) Yeah. Well, part of it, you you bring out a very important point and that is that when you're walking with someone through a severe illness, there's a lot that you don't understand. That's brand new. So if you say, OK, Doug, you're teaching intro to philosophy class at Cornerstone University and you've got 70 students, OK, you know, I've got my syllabus, I've got my books, I've got my lectures. I know how to engage ⁓ students. ⁓ Teasi (28:16) Yeah. Doug G (28:33) Some of them actually don't want to be an intro to philosophy. It's such a strange thing. But, know, when you walk into a psychiatric unit, I think I had been in one ⁓ twice with a friend who had tried to commit suicide, but I didn't bring her there, you know, and I had not been in ER for 10 hours with her before that. And I didn't know why they did what they did. Teasi (28:57) Mm-hmm. Doug G (29:01) You know, they're weird rules that you don't understand. It's because they're afraid people might try to commit suicide. And I think the worst of it for me was not so much when she was admitted, but the first day I came to visit and she was just kind of wandering around and said, Becky, what's going on? She had trouble talking. I said, let's go in your room. They said, no, you can't go in the room with her. What? What mean I can't go in the room with her? It's my wife. No, it's a rule. You can't go in the room with her. Teasi (29:07) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Yeah. Doug G (29:29) So you can sit down outside the room. So we sit down outside the room. I'm trying to talk with her. She's having trouble talking. She's confused. And there's a guy who's just yelling into a phone. And it's so overwhelming, frustrating, doesn't even come close to it. And I said, will you please be quiet? I'm trying to talk to my wife. And he starts talking back to me. And I think I say this in the book. Teasi (29:49) Yeah. Hmm. Doug G (29:58) I'm not proud of this, but I literally wanted to kill him. No, you're not going to interrupt me talking to my wife who's in the psych unit, you so-and-so. So I started yelling at him and the nurse came over and kicked me out of the room. And I'd say in the book, you know, I came this close to being arrested. That wouldn't have looked good for my school. A philosophy professor is arrested in the psychiatric unit in Denver, Colorado. It was just like everything was out of control. Teasi (30:01) you Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Doug G (30:27) The person I love the most was in deep distress. Everything was going wrong. I had no guardrails. I had no framework for this. And I just panicked. Teasi (30:39) Yeah, I understand. ⁓ Doug G (30:41) So I was, yeah, was just, it was like basically Doug Groteis at his worst, I think. Maybe I've been worse, but I was with a friend at the time and the friend helped me to kind of settle down, went back the next day, apologized to everybody that I could. And, and then the journey continued from there. But, you know, I think one of the sections in the book is called a year of learning things I never wanted to I'm sure you know that too. All the different meds, different doctors, the treatments, the symptom progression, what's going to go wrong next. It's extremely hard. And the thing really that's most important is the idea of lament. And lot of Christians don't have this in their ⁓ Teasi (31:14) Yeah. Doug G (31:38) repertoire of Christian faith because a lot of Christians think well we trust God we rejoice in the Lord we believe his promises Teasi (31:49) All better. Yeah. Right. Doug G (31:50) Yeah, it'll be better and put a smile on your face. And you know, there's so much in scripture ⁓ that's very raw and very visceral, know, very heartfelt laments. Basically, there are about 60 laments in the Psalms. There are many of them, Psalm 22, Psalm 90, Psalm 88. And these are prayers. And they're prayers where people are calling out to God and saying, God, I'm in deep distress. When will you come? Psalm 88 ends by saying, darkness is my closest friend. I mean, doesn't this guy know he's writing the Bible? I mean, you're not supposed to say things like, darkness is my closest friend in the Bible. But it's one of two Psalms that doesn't resolve. Psalm 39 is by David. That doesn't resolve either. David basically says, God, I'm so tired of you messing up my life. Will you leave me alone? Paraphrase, loose paraphrase, but read it. The last two or three verses of Psalm 39, David is just beside himself. And he says, God, I don't know what you're doing with my life. I don't understand it. Teasi (32:31) Right. Yeah. Doug G (32:57) So I'm I'm grateful. I'm glad that those Psalms are in the Bible. And of course, the ultimate lament is Jesus on the cross. Quoting Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So he experienced that deepest anguish, even though he was the sinless, perfectly righteous son of God, but he endured that because he knew the joy that was set before him. Teasi (33:01) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, me too. Doug G (33:24) as Hebrews tells us. And it's difficult to get that right, you know, to let yourself call out to God, cry out to God, even in confusion, even in anger, and remember the joy that is set before us. It seems a long ways away sometimes. Because, you know, as you suffer, and I'm sure you experience this too, when you're really suffering over a loved one, and you're tired, and you're confused, and you Teasi (33:42) Yeah. Doug G (33:51) beat up on yourself, sure you did, I did, didn't do enough, could have done better. Time just seems to slow down. Like when will this change, know, when will this get better? Teasi (33:54) Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then afterwards, like, don't know if you experienced this, but I, in the midst of it, you know, part of my pain walking my mom through Alzheimer's was I was experiencing, and I don't know if you felt this, but I found myself grieving what... my mom would have grieved if she had been aware of what she was losing of herself. Which people would say, your mom is completely unaware, you shouldn't be picking up her pain, but I couldn't help it because I loved her so much. And as she used to be a woman who wore linen clothes that she ironed all the time. And it got to the point where she wouldn't, you know, she... Doug G (34:28) ⁓ my. Hmm. Teasi (34:47) would just wear anything or sometimes forget to put pants on or, you know, and you're just watching this person you adore losing bits and pieces of their self ⁓ and grieving. It's just a different type of grief. It's like grieving in advance. in... Yes. Doug G (34:51) email. Thank you. Well, it's like vicarious grieving because you're thinking of your mom's healthy, well-ordered life. And what would your mom think looking at your mom losing these things? Yeah. Teasi (35:20) she'd be mortified. And I was just scrambling to do all that I possibly could to retain her dignity. You know, I was just doing all I could to just keep her dressed well and, you know, be there and, but at the same time... I can look back and wish that I had done more and I wish that I had been there more. And this is where I love that my mom and I know your wife, this helps me too, is just knowing my mom had a biblical worldview and my mom would actually, I can hear her telling me, stop, don't heap shame on yourself. You and I love each other and also we would also just sit and talk about Jesus together but. ⁓ Man, you mentioned so many things that I just resonate with, but I want to ask you, know, one of the things you mentioned about when you were at Olive Garden was that you didn't feel God, you didn't sense God, there were no warm fuzzies, but you knew that he is faithful. And I'm wondering if you could... like share a little bit about what those seasons of your life look like. I mean, just a lot of us go through those seasons where we don't feel God or sense God or think we hear him directly. And that in and of itself can be so discouraging that, and I don't even know what sets us up for thinking that we should be tangibly experiencing something ⁓ in order to make God real. So maybe you might have some words of encouragement for people that are feeling that way. Doug G (36:57) Well, the ultimate issue is... There are great quotes from Francis Schaeffer and C.S. Lewis and some of the others that we're Christians because we believe Christianity is true and that's the only reason to be a Christian. And if it is true and if there are good reasons to think it's true and that's been my entire adult life, has been giving those kinds of reasons the best I can, then we believe what the Bible says about creation, fall, redemption. And sometimes the world of the fall is so wounded, so broken, so groaning, as Romans eight puts it, the whole world groans together in travail, awaiting its redemption, that we have to look forward. And I think that's something we should always look forward. But especially when the present moment seems to offer very little comfort and only anguish and struggle and pain. we can transcend that to some extent by relying on the Lord and thinking about the final outcome. So I would often read passages of scripture to Becky, particularly from Revelation 21 and 22 about being in a world with no tears. It's interesting that Bible says God saves up all of our tears in a bottle, but Teasi (38:17) Yeah. Doug G (38:22) the final state, there'll be no tears. So I wonder if he's going to take out these big buckets and say, Doug, here are all your tears from your whole life. It's all gone now. But he saves our tears, which is really so remarkable because he knows every tear, every pain, every anguish, every ounce of even despair we've sometimes felt. And eventually all that will be gone and we'll be with the Lord in a perfect Teasi (38:28) Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Doug G (38:52) purified world. And many years ago, I was doing an interview with a magazine or I guess it was a Denver newspaper and there was some book that came out. You might have heard of it called Lovely Bones. Did you ever hear about that book? Yeah. Well, they wanted sort of the Christian philosophers take on this book because I would be asked questions by some of the newspapers about various issues. And I said, can't help you on this one. Teasi (39:05) I think I have. I haven't read it, but it does sound familiar. Doug G (39:21) I haven't read Lovely Bones and the interviewer said, well, it's okay because I can give you the basic story and I just want you to give a Christian perspective on the basic story. So she explained it's about heaven and the different understandings of heaven. Heaven is this place where you get everything that you want. It's comfortable and there are sandy beaches and everything. I said, this is not the biblical view of heaven. What makes heaven heaven is God. Teasi (39:41) Mm. Mmm. Yeah, it's so good. Wow. Yeah. Doug G (39:49) And I said, apparently this book says nothing about God in heaven. Whoa. So and actually, let's not go there, but you could do the same thing with Islam. What makes heaven heaven is the unmediated, apparent, face to face, no sin, no tears, no diseases, no dementia. Reality of being with the triune God forever. Teasi (40:14) Yeah. Doug G (40:18) and worshipping and having fellowship with God. And that's the purpose of creation. So we're obviously not there yet, but we have a record of what this will be. And we have instructions and wisdom about how to live well through suffering. And one thing I added to the second edition of my Christian apologetics, the first one wasn't big enough. It was only 750 pages. So I had to add another hundred pages to it. Teasi (40:18) Yeah. Right. Crazy. Doug G (40:47) in the 2022 edition, added a chapter called Lament as an Apologetic for Christianity. And there's this great and ancient and vexing problem called the problem of evil, which is how can we believe in a God who is all good and all powerful when there's so much evil? And I think there are good answers to that. And Christianity gives the best answers of all the worldviews out there. think I've got 35 pages on that in Teasi (41:07) Yeah. Doug G (41:16) Christian apologetics, but here's the other side of it. How do we live well in the face of suffering? Christianity has this account of existence that the world is originally good, fallen into sin, God has not given up on it, and it will be redeemed. So you've got creation, fall, redemption, and there's a lot in the Bible about how to live with hope and virtue in the midst of suffering. It's not Buddhism detached from everything. It's not atheism. Life stinks, but you just have to get on with it. It's a unique picture of the way the world is in light of present suffering and future hope. And it's not just statements, it's examples like the laments, the 60 laments in the book of Psalms. The book of Ecclesiastes is actually not a lament, but it gives you this perspective on life, how to deal with Teasi (41:53) Right. Doug G (42:15) disappointments, hardships, struggles, misunderstanding. So, you know, the way we live through our suffering is a testimony of the faithfulness of God. And we don't like to think of it this way, but suffering is a skill you need to learn. Everybody will have to learn how to suffer in one way or another. And the principles of scripture of lament, of hope, of faith, Teasi (42:34) Mm. Hmm Doug G (42:44) of love and not just the principles but the person of God in us and with us. And even though I mentioned that I didn't often really feel a lot of deep peace through these struggles, ⁓ I knew that God was there and I did at some point feel turning points. So even when I said to Becky when she said, it really true? And I said, Becky, do you think I'm smart? That just came out of nowhere. I felt like God gave me that question. And I think that's exactly what she needed. And also when I found out what was wrong with Becky, that she had this rare and terrible form of dementia, you know, very quickly that scripture came to me. There's a time to give up. And that didn't make it ⁓ happy or easy in any way, but it made it better than continuing. Teasi (43:15) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Doug G (43:42) to try, well maybe there's new doctor, there's some new alternative remedy, or maybe there's somebody who has a special, special gift of healing and maybe we can get past this thing. We have been trying that kind of thing for 15 years. So I felt like the Lord said there's a time to give up on Becky being healed, healed in this life, it's time to give up on that. But now we start a different journey. Teasi (43:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doug G (44:10) He will be with us and we can count on God giving us the wisdom and the friends and the patience ⁓ to do that. Teasi (44:21) Yeah, well, I love that. So I look at hope directly related to ⁓ a bolstered faith because the role of apologetics in faith, biblical faith being... ⁓ trusting in what we have good reasons to believe. we have all that God is so kind to us to provide us with objectively verifiable evidence. I see apologetics as such a gift of love. if faith for me today is trusting in what I have good reasons to believe, which so, you Doug G (44:51) Yeah. Teasi (44:59) I have the evidence that I lean into when I'm doubting, but hope is just projecting that into the future, that his reliability today is going to continue. And I also love the same scriptures and revelation that you have brought up, and even just write this down for this is trustworthy and true. This hope that we have as Christians, that is unique hope. ⁓ Doug G (45:06) and Teasi (45:26) And you've mentioned several other, what I would call counterfeit comforts, but is there one that you think is really vying for people's, out there really working hard to deceive people who are vulnerable right now with just. I mean, obviously the enemy is always trying to deceive, but is there a certain counterfeit right now that's pervasive in our culture that you could just maybe briefly expose or share why the biblical worldview is so much better? Doug G (45:55) yeah. Well, there's so many. ⁓ I don't really deal with this in the book, but I have thought about it and I have strong convictions about it, and that is the prosperity gospel or the health and wealth gospel that says that if you are sick or if you're having financial problems, it's because you don't have the right faith formula. Teasi (45:59) I know. Mm-hmm. Doug G (46:21) So if you just confess this verse or if you just give this particular ministry a lot of money, ⁓ you will find yourself delivered from illness, from financial struggles, from all these things. And the problem with this is that it's half right. So we have so many reasons to trust God, to lay hold of the promises of God. We need to try to live within the promises of God, right? Teasi (46:21) Yeah. Doug G (46:50) But you've got to get the promises right. And I don't see any promise that we're not going to suffer or get sick or have financial struggles in this life. It's just not there. The promises are things like Psalm 91, I will be with them in trouble. Teasi (46:52) Yeah. Hmm. Doug G (47:10) That verse came to me very powerfully once years before Becky got dementia. She had another severe physical problem and we were on the way to the physician and that verse just came to me. I will be with them in trouble and say I will deliver them from all trouble or they will never have trouble but I will be with them in trouble. So God is with us. We have this final Teasi (47:33) Yeah. Doug G (47:36) destination of the new heavens and the new earth and the presence of God and all the redeemed. So what we need, and this is tough, is we need a really strong theology of hope. I'm charismatic, so I pray for people to be healed. ⁓ think Wayne Grudem said he was a charismatic with seatbelts on. So, you know, I believe in the gifts of the Spirit and healing and all that's got to be biblically tested. Teasi (47:57) Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. Doug G (48:06) So I pray for people to be healed and I'm very open to all the gifts tested by scripture. But you also need a theology of suffering and lament. So you need both. And you live within that tension. You know, know God can heal. He still heals. He still works miracles. Lee Strobel wrote a book a couple of years ago called The Case for Miracles. Teasi (48:17) Yeah. Doug G (48:31) gives examples of supernatural healings and strange events that come together. He has this in his newest book called Seeing the Supernatural. But he interviewed me for that book and the interview that I did was called When Miracles Don't Happen, which was Rebecca. So the Name it and Claim it, the Prosperity Gospel, They're emphasizing we serve a supernatural God, build up your faith, believe in the Bible, confess the Bible. I believe in all of that, but at the same time, you need to live within the promises of God. And here's a promise for you. In this world, you will have tribulation. That's right from the master's mouth. So live within that promise. You will have tribulation and I will be with you in trouble. So let's go for it. Let's pray. I mean, I have a dear friend who's Teasi (49:01) Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Doug G (49:27) fantastic Christian philosopher, you know him, J.P. Marlin. He's charismatic, pretty much the same way that I am. And he has had such terrible health problems now for over 10 years. Various forms of cancer and so on. And the last check he had, he was cancer free. Last I heard, the cancer is all gone. Praise God. Teasi (49:30) Mm-hmm Hmm. Wow. It's amazing. Yeah. Doug G (49:52) You know, he went through a lot of tribulation, a lot of struggle. The guy is just a dynamo. He's like 78. He's constantly writing, speaking, doing all these things. Such a good friend of mine. So we need to develop a really strong theology, I think, of the supernatural and the Christian life. And I really recommend Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Miracles on that, and also his latest book called Seeing the Supernatural. Teasi (49:57) Mm-hmm. Doug G (50:20) And we also need a theology of suffering and lament. And typically you have one of those or the other one or neither. In the Christian life, we really need to develop both. And it's just challenging, you know. Teasi (50:26) Yeah. Right. Yeah, I agree and I that's such thank you for that that encouragement because I think what it ultimately when we don't do that, we have false expectations of God. And then when he doesn't meet up to our expectations, and we think it's supposed to be, you know, we aren't supposed to suffer, you know, as an oversimplification, then when we do, it's a it's a massive, massively confusing. And if we haven't taken the time to learn how to read the Bible, you know, just basics, how to read the Bible, how to, like you said, you know, make sure we understand what the promises really are. Then it's sad to see people just, you know, they feel like the rug has been completely pulled out from underneath them and then they just walk away from the Lord altogether and the whole reason was built on faulty assumptions and false expectations of God. And that is tragic to me. Yeah. Doug G (51:16) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Well, it just underscores how much effort we need to put in in knowing the Bible. Sitting under solid biblical teaching with humble leaders studying the Bible, getting good study tools. There's so many great study Bibles out there. The NIV study Bible, the Reformation study Bible. I think they're about Teasi (51:41) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Doug G (51:59) two different apologetic study bibles and all the commentaries and the great christian writers like francis schaeffer and a w tozer and cs lewis you know just need we need knowledge we need the knowledge of god and then we need to bring our our being our emotions our imagination in line with that and we need the fellowship of the body of christ we need close spiritual friends And you know, this is a tough life that we have to live through before glory. So we need knowledge, we need friends, we need to learn how to rejoice well, we need to learn how to suffer well. Teasi (52:37) Yeah, that is... ⁓ great encouragement. I'm curious before we go, what is just your favorite line of evidence? If you have one, you might not have a favorite line of evidence. or what do you lean into if you are going through a season, which you might not do much because of all your studies, but if you are struggling with doubt in a moment where you just like, man, am I nuts? What is it that you, your brain naturally goes to first as assurance? Doug G (53:08) Mm-hmm. Well, it's interesting. was I was asked this recently by Sean McDowell, you know. Yeah. Teasi (53:12) you know what? I remember seeing that and your answer was like, well, you need to tell what what is best being because you're a philosopher. So you're getting into like what how do you I guess just like. Doug G (53:19) Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Well, you asked it sort of like in a relational or existential question. think what I do is is think I've thought through the Christian worldview and looked at all the objections to it for almost 50 years. And I've studied and written about atheism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, polytheism, the occult. What am I leaving out? And I find that those worldviews are profoundly intellectually and existentially unsatisfying. And whatever issues I may still have about the Bible or Christianity, I haven't figured everything out. They're far less than any of the other worldviews. ⁓ Teasi (53:56) Yeah. Doug G (54:07) Christianity explains the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, the uniqueness of the human condition. It's rooted in the history of Israel and Jesus and we have this vast testimony of Christian saints and martyrs and theologians and philosophers and the church testifying to the faithfulness of God. And then also, I look back at my Christian life and while I'm not the kind of person that kind of lives on the RPM method, revelations per minute. ⁓ have experienced God profoundly in many cases. And I will sometimes go back to that. If I feel really dry or anxious or worried or lonely or something, I think you remember that event where the Lord was so present and you felt no anxiety. Teasi (54:52) Mm-hmm. Doug G (55:02) And you remember God's anointing when you were teaching or something. But even apart from that, ⁓ we've got such good reasons to believe that there is a God, that God came in the person of Christ, that he lived, he died, he rose again from the dead. The Bible's reliable. God continues to reveal himself to people today. And another feature here that's really important, I think, we haven't really touched on it too much, is the whole area of spiritual warfare that we have an enemy named Satan and he has demons and they have certain abilities to tempt and confuse us if we let them. Teasi (55:33) Mm-hmm. Doug G (55:43) So you need to put on the full armor of God, Ephesians 6, 10 through 19. And sometimes when I'm low or struggling, I think, all right, this might be from the enemy. So I think through Ephesians 6 and I mentally put on the armor and the helmet of salvation and belt of truth and all the rest of it. Probably people know the armor. And just make sure I'm in the right place with that. and that I'm resting in the truth of God. you know, Lewis deals with this in the screw tape letters. I think it's in the first couple letters. We just go through moods and struggles as human beings. And I recently have been interacting with one of my students at Cornerstone University, a young guy, I think he's 19, 20 years old, real zealous. Teasi (56:26) Mm-hmm. Doug G (56:37) guy loves the Bible. I'm in class and he's quoting Bible verses from memory. He's even correcting me. He no Dr. Groothuis, that's not the right verse. So this guy is great. And he went home for summer vacation. He's only been a Christian maybe for two years. Teasi (56:43) I knew you would. Doug G (56:51) and he was just having some struggles, he felt a dry time, he didn't feel God's presence or God's love and said, well, you know, take it from an old guy who's been a Christian for 50 years, this is just part of the Christian life and stay in the scripture, keep praying. God is still with you, you still believe in Christ. Our emotions will go up and down, situations will change. Teasi (57:04) Mm-hmm. Doug G (57:17) But ⁓ Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And He has redeemed us through His work, and we can count on that in every season of life. Teasi (57:28) Amen. I think that is a perfect way for us to close. Thank you so much for, I could listen to you for another hour. I really, and I would love to even ask questions, philosophical questions about things, but we don't have time for that. We could go down many rabbit holes, but thank you so much for joining us, for your wisdom. Again, I hope. ⁓ Anyone listening has been encouraged where you are specifically. ⁓ I will list in the show notes how to find all of Dr. Groothuis's books and the one, especially the one we talked about today and how you can follow him and I really encourage you to do so. And also just want to say if you have been encouraged or if you know someone who is hurting and could use this kind of encouragement, I would love for you to consider sharing it and also subscribe so that you don't miss a single moment of true comfort. Thank you so much.