Latest / Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast / Viktor Frankl and Man’s Search For Meaning, Pt. 2 - Logotherapy

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Viktor Frankl and Man’s Search For Meaning, Pt. 2 - Logotherapy · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:02
Hello everyone and Welcome to our second discussion on the
0:08
meaning of life and Viktor frankl's logotherapy.
0:12
Last time we did a more broad introduction to the topic.
0:16
And today, we want to get into the meat of it and discussed
0:22
also practical applications. The limit of maybe this this
0:28
lower therapeutical approach and just to apply More to Everyday
0:34
situations and maybe also the therapeutic situations.
0:38
And again I have with me, I meet who is interested in this topic
0:42
and so many other psychological topics and he has delved into
0:49
the specific book that we discussed of Victor of Hunka and
0:53
also onto logotherapy a little bit.
0:55
And he wanted to my residence and my feedback and the
1:00
discussion to some of the points.
1:02
And maybe also how it relates to my personal work as a therapist.
1:07
And with that, I'll hand it over to you.
1:09
You have prepared a little bit and we can take it from there.
1:13
Perfect. Thank you.
1:14
Doc. Good morning, from New York
1:19
Mets, - 19 Celcius here with been chilled, but you know, we
1:24
are all happy to be in sight, so that's good.
1:28
But so doc, as you, as you mentioned in the last podcast,
1:32
We went over some of the concepts that Viktor Frankl
1:36
mentioned in his book, right? Which related to Faith and you
1:40
know what may or may not have emerged from the suffering in
1:43
the campus. So we went through that and you
1:47
know, we went over survival and how the population in the camps
1:51
and bb-8 talking about concentration camps is different
1:55
scripts to survive or decide to end their lives.
1:58
Yes let's rip on the meaning of life, a little bit and how we
2:01
can work the words. I didn't Buying it in our
2:03
day-to-day life because there is no set meaning but we can go
2:09
over what we do, everyday and Define meaning in that job and
2:14
we touched upon a little bit around, you know, usefulness and
2:19
success as it is defined today in society.
2:22
Now, can and then you took us more towards and this is
2:25
something we will discuss or touch upon at the end today as
2:28
well. And how you believe that we can
2:30
bring instead of being? Useful for others, we can bring
2:34
inner calmness and satisfaction and your example you get it by
2:39
looking at Ducks. They're not too many ducks here
2:42
but then so, so we would we would touch that.
2:46
But today, what I'll do is I'll start as you said, I'll start
2:49
with logotherapy because that's where we can go over his three
2:53
tenants that he has mentioned, eat some from his book, I've
2:57
taken some notes and then I'll try to get what your
3:01
interpretation of that is. And, you know, and be able to
3:05
take it from there on out, right?
3:06
And so let's I'll try to be a little bit more organized this
3:10
time around. Because last time we went a
3:13
little bit all over the place, some in some of the parts.
3:17
But anyways, so to kick-start, what is mentioned in the book?
3:21
And again, we are talking about Man's Search for meaning by
3:25
Viktor Frankl. So, this book.
3:28
So after his part one, which he describes the The concentration
3:33
camps which we figured were different concentration camps.
3:37
Not all of them will all of it was or Schwartz.
3:40
It was a little bit of harsh words, plus many others.
3:43
He goes into defining, the therapy therapy, which he
3:48
practices, which is logotherapy. Now, what he says, he breaks it
3:51
down into three parts. First part, he says, what you
3:54
have to do is to feel meaningful or to have meaning in your life,
4:01
you need to go with. With number one, creating a work
4:05
or by doing a deed is that you can arrive to meaning in life,
4:09
by creating work or by doing a deed, right?
4:13
And I'll get to that question. But I'll Define all three the
4:16
second he mentions is by experiencing something or
4:19
encountering. Someone.
4:21
In other words, meaning can be found, not only in work, but
4:24
also in love. This is where I have a lot of
4:28
questions, but we'll get to that.
4:29
And the third he says, is finding meaning in suffering,
4:34
the Third Avenue, where helpless victim may feel empowered by
4:38
facing their suffering head on and in that coming out stronger.
4:43
So these are his three high-level tenants in
4:46
logotherapy right now Javis is a side note.
4:50
This is not the only categorisation that he used,
4:53
kind of as you can imagine the The topic of meaning and purpose
4:57
is very fast. So this one that you just
5:00
mentioned is a popular one, but there are few others where he
5:02
categorize it slightly differently.
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So just that, you know, the audience is aware of the
5:08
different possibilities to break down such a super vast and
5:11
complex topic as meaning of life is, of course.
5:14
Sure. Okay.
5:16
So let's say, if we were to go through this and again, this
5:19
comes from the book, so that's where we're going through.
5:22
So, let's start with this first. One, very says, creating a work
5:26
Or by doing a deed, what does it mean?
5:30
In your view? Like, I have my own
5:32
interpretation but when you were to read this creating a work or
5:35
doing a deed, what does it mean doing the deed?
5:38
Like selfless T, you know, helping out whether, you know,
5:41
for a bigger cause. What does he mean by that?
5:44
Yes. Okay, so an order to approach
5:47
this specific topic, we have to again develop a little bit of a
5:51
bird's eye view on logotherapy and one important aspect that It
5:56
is that Funko and many other 610 existential, philosophers and
6:02
psychologists. They saw that, they there is
6:05
something like a spirit, a higher Spirit which is different
6:09
than our, you know, kind of random daily mind psyche, that
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wakes up, you know, it's a little bit tired.
6:19
Little bit hungry goes to work, does the drill and so on those
6:23
people they saw that there is Almost a spiritual Dimension,
6:28
that is accessible to us. And this is where ultimately
6:32
will, the will for meaning and purpose is located, right?
6:37
So when we think about activities that we can do by the
6:42
deed, that is supposedly possible to tap into in order to
6:50
create this meaning of life, we have to perceive it from this
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higher from this higher perspective, Tube and from this
6:57
higher perspective, there's not much of kind of selfish deed
7:01
anyway. You know, when we have for the
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sake of Simplicity, when we imagine that this fireplace is a
7:09
spiritual mode, a spiritual register, then I don't do stuff
7:14
for myself anyway. So there is baked in already.
7:17
A selfless Dimension into the whole perspective of logotherapy
7:22
when it comes to meaning. Right?
7:24
Because the idea is to bring people closer to what their
7:28
Spirit actually is fundamentally.
7:32
And what the spirit ultimately is, is not the body and not the
7:36
kind of the psychological Mechanical Mind, but it's
7:39
something that is beyond that and this Beyond, you know,
7:42
whatever kind of ways you want to use to define that, or to
7:46
reflect on that. But one thing it's certainly not
7:48
selfish. So let me let me understand
7:52
that, right? Because you said a couple of
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things and so there are two aspects of it.
7:57
So we have atheists who don't believe in God, but I don't know
8:01
whether they believe in spirits or not.
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But what you're saying is that philosophers like Franco and
8:07
others and I don't know about Adler and I don't know about
8:10
Freud, but they believe that we are we when I say V, that means
8:16
an individual or me or you, we are more that Is this body and
8:20
the mechanical mind. Yes, correct.
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It's a lot of medications where they do.
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I'm not the body. I'm not the mine.
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Yes, but you are more than that. So this is this Spirit or
8:30
whatever, we want to call it a higher self.
8:33
Now what we're saying is when he sing creating a work or doing a
8:37
deed, it is doing a deed from the higher self.
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Like I that part I didn't get yes.
8:44
So ideally, I'm tapping into that realm or power whatever you
8:49
want to Use it to call it and from that place connect to the
8:54
deed which means, for example, that, you know, when I'm
8:59
crafting something, right? I'm doing all the gummy, or
9:02
whatever it is, or I go to work, then I'm not kind of to
9:07
interested in the idea that it gives me money after all and
9:11
increases my power status and so on.
9:14
But I see the creative potential on that.
9:17
I see the sources of joy. Of trying something of, you
9:22
know, come to the other categories later, for example,
9:25
to help someone. But this first point, it's more
9:28
about the deed. The deed aspect.
9:30
So approaching it with kind of cat aspects and qualities that
9:37
many people would agree belong to a higher realm, openness
9:41
Freedom, creativity curiosity, you know, all these things that
9:47
we ascribe to Positive and states of mind that helped me to
9:54
self develop. This is what is meant here?
9:56
So to connect to the deed with these qualities, does it make
10:00
sense to you slightly? Can I tell you in layman's term?
10:04
What? I understood goodbye.
10:07
So what you're saying is let's say I go to work like so there
10:10
are daily things that we have to do right because we can't be
10:13
monks best you know it's not everyone can be doing that.
10:17
But let's say when you go and do it so or Or if you are into
10:20
farming, for example, as a farmer, you're going.
10:23
So instead of just saying, okay, I'm going to, you know, work on
10:26
the fields, you're enjoying this and you're enjoying touching the
10:31
plants, you're enjoying watering it like a kid enjoys watering it
10:35
when they're doing it. So you're coming out with
10:37
curiosity fun. You know, you're enjoying the
10:40
sun on your back on your neck. Similarly, when you go to work,
10:44
you're enjoying the conversational aspect with
10:47
people and Ending where they are struggling to grow, helping them
10:52
grow. This is what you're saying.
10:54
So instead of looking at it, just as work and projects and
10:57
moving projects forward, you're thinking more of that, yes, and
11:02
to see, I mean, maybe you're a little bit familiar with the
11:06
idea of Karma Yoga and the Indian realm for those who have
11:10
no idea what this is, is basically basically, to use the
11:15
realm of action, the realm of bead, as an axis to To the
11:20
ultimate, the access to the Divine, Right to put for example
11:24
my my activities into the service of god let's say, right?
11:28
So I'm the vessel through which God kind of Acts on Earth and
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with this kind of approach. Of course I act differently than
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if I just think about, you know, my small acoustic advantages
11:43
through working, for example, and it's it goes into that
11:48
direction. If I'm cleaning toilets, I
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could, for example, ask myself, not that what they're demeaning
11:56
kind of crap. Crappy paid job that is but to
12:00
kind of connect to the idea that actually, I'm contributing to
12:04
society with that. I'm contributing to people
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coming in and not being disgusted from by, you know,
12:09
this toilet, but kind of leaving in a good State of Mind.
12:13
First of all, they relieve themselves.
12:15
But also, the kind of enjoyed how clean it was and it was a
12:18
good experience. As for them, and I can
12:20
contribute to that. And by thinking, like that, I'm
12:24
not getting an egg with sztyc Advantage out of that, right?
12:28
It's not a business model that comes out of it or the huge
12:31
acknowledgement. I'm tapping into a higher
12:34
purpose, that embeds me into society and gives me a place
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where even though this is a work that most people don't enjoy to
12:43
do, but it gives me a place and it gives a purpose.
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It and now I'm not To digress too much.
12:51
But let's say then you're constantly fighting between.
12:54
Let's say, if I go to work and I'm trying to do the right
12:57
thing, you know, people are annoying, certain people are
13:00
pushy. Yes, yeah, okay, you know, maybe
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they're coming through struggle in their life and you're trying
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to be nice to everyone. That's then.
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How do you manage that with all? That's a growth for example,
13:11
where you have to be a dick ninety percent of the time or a
13:15
few people around, then you have to worry through that, right?
13:19
Because Cuz from society's perspective, that's how you grow
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and that's how you succeed versus you can be a nice guy
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walking around the corner, right?
13:27
Yes. Then hop, you can manage that or
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you have to, you know, because that has to be a line to be
13:31
drawn there, right? And this is an interesting point
13:34
where we think we can relatively close to the limitations of such
13:40
an approach. That's an existential approach.
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As I mentioned last time approaches like Global therapy
13:46
existential approaches, they are largely idealistic Even when I
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speak about the free spirit, or the Divine Spirit, or the, the
13:54
ultimate meaning or something like that, I'm projecting a
13:57
grandiose idea, right? That we might tap into
14:03
sometimes, but it's unrealistic to expect from myself or others
14:09
that I could be in that all the time.
14:12
Usually, it's an oscillation between moments where I feel
14:17
elevated. I remind myself of those Suppose
14:19
I contemplate, for example, with which attitude, I want to go to
14:23
work today, but then I'm thrown into the situation.
14:27
Like you said, some time someone is, is a dick to me or there's a
14:31
power play going on at work. And then the mechanical aspect
14:35
of the Mayan kicks in self-protection kicks in the
14:38
will to power kicks in. And then I'm, you know, kind of
14:43
maybe dropping largely out of this purpose, fall grandiose
14:47
kind of space that Feels so good when it's pure when I feel it,
14:52
so purely right. But then in harsh contact with
14:55
reality. And with people where I cannot
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kind of protect this precious space, I'm falling back into
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normal mode of, you know, exercising power security, and
15:08
so on. So I feel at least in the realm
15:12
of logotherapy or these existential views.
15:16
We are more in an inspirational space.
15:19
Got it. Okay, since the majority of the
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time if you are looking at a situation where you don't have
15:25
to be the way Mechanical Mind tells you to be, you can try and
15:30
do good majority of the time and that should get him.
15:34
Yeah, right. So what we're counting, what do
15:38
the counting on is the is the effect that once I stalled in
15:42
myself, this layer of meaning, knowing that it exists, Seeing
15:47
how good it feels to be tapped into this power then to
15:53
basically remind myself and those harsh situations so that
15:56
it can pull me back from the grossest forms of the mechanical
15:59
mind. For example, I have to do a
16:01
factory job or this little meaning to it.
16:04
But then to remind myself, okay? I also supporting my mother for
16:08
example, who's a widow or something like that.
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So and that pulls me out from the most horrible aspects of it,
16:15
where my boss shouts. At me and gives me no breakfast
16:19
break or something. Then I'm reminding myself of the
16:22
love and the support that I'm facilitating through my work and
16:26
that is enabling me to see purpose to go through it and not
16:30
to be horribly scarred by the otherwise.
16:34
You know, adverse situations that I'm in.
16:36
It's a bit of a trickery, I feel that it's a trick that you're
16:40
playing on your mind. I don't know what the real thing
16:42
is, but, you know, this reminds me of back in the day they were
16:46
someone We'll talk about it and we had, you know, Kings and then
16:50
they were all these workers and they were going through really
16:55
harsh time because at the end they believe that when they die
16:58
they'll do God and if they have done a good job at a good place
17:01
in heaven. So then continued on working the
17:04
way they work. So I think yes, not similar to
17:07
that but basically, you know, they were thinking, okay,
17:10
afterlife. Here we are thinking, okay, in
17:13
my day-to-day life, how am I helping others?
17:16
Yes. And that, you know what that
17:18
discussion. I don't know if you want to go
17:19
there already but this is what I feel is the limitation of such
17:23
an approach and then if I compare it to my personal work
17:27
with people, it's for me. It's very important to point out
17:32
in my work. What is inspirational and
17:35
idealistic versus what the real meat of The Daily Grind is and
17:41
The Daily Grind for me, is the oscillation for example between
17:44
such high principles but then also to Except that I cannot be
17:48
there all the time. Right.
17:50
Because people might, you know, the read books.
17:52
Like these functions book might be fascinated with this idea,
17:56
right? Oh yes.
17:57
This is what I want. I want to have this higher
17:59
purpose, I want to walk around with love filling my heart
18:04
towards myself, towards others, towards deeds, and so on.
18:07
So they fall in love with this idea, right?
18:10
But then, as we already discussed, I cannot stay there
18:13
all the time, but if I put the pressure on myself, if I look
18:17
down on the mechanical aspects of the mind and I say this is,
18:21
this is crap. I don't want to be like that and
18:24
people who are in this realm and, you know, most please spend
18:28
their time. And those kind of average, or
18:34
average aspects of the mind, they are in a lesser human
18:37
beings. And I don't want that for
18:38
myself, they might create within themselves, a pressure to become
18:45
something that they cannot be and there.
18:47
And dissatisfaction and judgments from that.
18:51
But yeah, the judge is activated and then there is a potential to
18:56
feel horrible, right? So part of my work, I feel
18:59
again. And again with clients is to
19:01
remind them. Look, it's nice to have those
19:03
Inspirations and to create circumstances so that I can tap
19:07
into that because it gives us. Pollock does feel good but don't
19:12
judge yourself for not always being able to be there because
19:15
you cannot be This is the right just as much baked into our
19:18
human existence that we can aspire to those moments only,
19:25
you know, to a limited amount of time, right?
19:28
Unless you're living in an ashram in, you know, things are,
19:31
oh no, no please visit an ashram and see how people are.
19:36
The reality is just the mind is a certain is built in a certain
19:40
way and you know, even we make a small build a small Bridge.
19:46
To Buddhism Buddhism is very sober about that and basically
19:50
saying look this mental apparatus that we have is the
19:54
way it is like it's a machine to satisfy desires.
19:58
And sometimes those desires are very mean and gross, right on
20:04
sometimes they are a little bit more elevated than sometimes
20:06
their aspirational, but don't let that kind of mislead you to
20:10
believe that there is a Sanctified space and so on this,
20:16
Belongs to very high developments of the Mind.
20:19
Most of us are better off to accept that.
20:25
We are normal human beings who occasionally, you know, build up
20:30
circumstances so that it can be an inspirational state of mind
20:34
which gives us then power to continue, living and working,
20:38
and doing awesome. Okay, this was helpful.
20:43
Thanks Doc. So but So now the second part
20:47
just can, I mean I have a lot of questions on the first one but I
20:49
don't want to keep sticking to that but the second part that he
20:52
mentions around is which we discussed last time.
20:57
Here, he talks about by experiencing something or
20:59
encountering and I'm reading it were with them by experiencing
21:02
something or encountering. Someone, in other words, meaning
21:05
can be found, not only in work but also in love and for lifted
21:10
this edit, the don't think I'm going to pronounce it.
21:15
Bright weiskopf, Jolson she observed.
21:19
That the notion that experiencing can be as valuable
21:22
as achieving is therapeutic because it compensates for one
21:27
side emphasis on the external world of achievements at the
21:31
expense of internal world of experience, I have no idea what
21:36
that means. I have some idea on what he
21:39
means when he says by found, by not only work but also in love.
21:45
I got loving others and I think this is where I talked to you
21:48
last time where I said it seems like people have kids because
21:52
it's easy to love, your own kids or dogs, and by loving someone
21:56
else, you're not thinking about yourself, you're thinking about
21:59
them. So you are feeling a little bit
22:01
less miserable on a day-to-day basis.
22:03
Yes. But yeah, but I'll let you give
22:06
your view on this. Yes.
22:09
So, I also don't understand exactly what this other quote
22:12
was, because that means more It's just too vague and that
22:17
sounds. But what is relatively clear
22:19
that when we tap into this source of meaning, which is the
22:23
connection the relation to other people?
22:26
Whereas you know, love could be one representation of that.
22:30
That's a very broad field, right?
22:32
So one aspect of that could be, for example, to have one's own
22:36
kids or to focus on one's own family.
22:40
But again, you know, kind of tapping into this higher.
22:44
Or do perspective on life and existence in spirit.
22:49
I think it becomes clear that what is actually meant is the of
22:53
the existence of others and the of my own existence in general
22:59
where I seeing so when I when I employ empathy, right to put
23:06
myself in someone else's shoes and I do it without a known my
23:11
own agenda and of to get some advantage of benefit out of it.
23:16
I cannot help but you know, feeling sympathy and love for
23:20
them. Because what I recognize is that
23:22
they struggle, everyone struggles.
23:24
It doesn't matter how confidence I want to looks like everyone
23:28
tries to find their formula, to get through life and, to be
23:32
somehow satisfied, And many of us don't succeed with that.
23:41
There is another group of people who, you know, sometimes it
23:44
works and then it doesn't work anymore.
23:46
But what is what we have in common is the struggle right to
23:50
deal with those situations of being exposed to life being
23:54
thrown into life without you know being asked obviously if we
23:59
want this existence or not and that is a challenge for most
24:02
people. And when I become aware of that
24:06
and how sometimes how helpless people are in trying to, you
24:10
know, appear confident and you know, have figure haven't
24:16
figured it out and with how much enthusiasm they throw themselves
24:20
into the next project, because they hope this will help me this
24:23
book, or this work, or this relationship.
24:26
I cannot help, but to feel, you know, sympathy empathy sometimes
24:31
pity but also just an acknowledgement of the struggle
24:35
that they have, and I think one can call it some sort of a
24:39
Selfless Love and that moment because it makes sense.
24:43
Okay, so you're saying there are two aspects of it.
24:46
One is, of course, you can have kids, or you can fall in love
24:51
with a partner and then maybe it's French.
24:54
Yes. And and, and, and that's, that's
24:57
shortly after, or, when you all of a sudden, make new friends,
25:01
right? You?
25:01
You feel really excited, you go. Trypsin travel but that's all
25:06
short-lived. The other one is also where,
25:09
let's say if someone is mean to you, or if someone is doing an
25:13
act, which is not good. You can think of them, you can
25:17
understand where they may be coming from and then that way
25:20
you can kind of like them or love them, which can.
25:23
But how would that help in do finding meaning to life?
25:26
Ryz relating that to meaning that's more about being bit more
25:31
kinder to the other person? How would that relate back into
25:35
meaning? Well, I can I can do the
25:37
kindness mechanically right? Because I read it in a book or
25:41
the priest and church said that it's called to will that I
25:44
should be kind or something but it wouldn't connect anything
25:47
with that. I would feel it, I wouldn't be,
25:51
I wouldn't be filled up with a higher sense of what I'm doing
25:56
there. So this is obviously not what is
25:57
meant, right? So meaning comes into play when
26:01
I'm connecting with a higher aspect of what.
26:03
I'm Showing understanding of putting myself into someone
26:07
else's shoes, which again, has to be connected with some sort
26:11
of selflessness, which kind of transcendence.
26:14
My very personal situation we're in, right.
26:17
That I have these on these debts where I was I was left in
26:26
relationships already twice and I have these scars from the
26:30
relation. So the more personal it gets the
26:32
more kind of them. Technical aspect of the Mind
26:34
kicks in the less. I am involved, personally, and
26:39
I'm tapping into something broader than the meaning
26:44
automatically comes in. Where I feel like, oh, it's
26:47
it's, it's just good to be supportive to people, not
26:52
because of something, it's just feels, right?
26:55
It's you feel content. Yes.
26:58
And this content nurse that doesn't come from a specific
27:01
benefit that I get write the content analysis of.
27:05
Finally my boss acknowledged my work or something which is not
27:11
just short lived in time, which is because it goes away, but
27:15
it's also Limited in its it doesn't.
27:17
I know, it doesn't fill me up completely right.
27:20
There are parts of my heart, for example, that I'm not filled out
27:24
by such an acknowledgment, but if I'm able to get into More
27:28
impersonal space and kind of Base my love on a higher
27:33
principle, right? For humans in general or living
27:37
beings in general or towards all beings that are thrown into the
27:42
same dilemma of existence. Then the Fulfillment that comes
27:47
out of that is just more intuitively kind of satisfying
27:53
gratifying and on a broader scale right?
27:57
And I think this also is Is talking from my own experience.
28:01
I feel that this also needs a lot of time because sometimes
28:05
when something happens like in family, or otherwise, immediate
28:10
Mechanical Mind reaction is very different because it's a threat.
28:14
It's an insult. It's like how dare they say this
28:17
to me after I did all this and then after a week or so, you
28:22
calm yourself down, you sit down, you think through it,
28:26
cropping meditate or not, whatever that is.
28:28
And then you're like okay maybe they were going through a tough
28:31
time. Maybe if I was in their place, I
28:33
may feel the same right to understand where they're coming
28:35
from and then you become a little bit calmer in that
28:39
aspect. But then again you know you
28:42
don't want to be. I don't think we want to be
28:44
going too far out with this because you know someone takes
28:48
advantage of you and you're like yeah I get it.
28:50
They probably came through a tough life.
28:52
Let them take advantage of me again.
28:54
You don't want to go that far I wear and this in this world is
28:58
what What I'm thinking but at least you can you don't have to
29:00
be you don't have to be pissed off with them for the rest of
29:05
your life, you know. Huh.
29:07
Yeah. I think that's a good practical
29:08
aspect because I think even within the framework of
29:12
logotherapy it would make sense to think in this way that you
29:14
just described. Why?
29:15
Because if I'm letting people take advantage of me, I'm
29:19
violating the self-love that I should equally have right.
29:24
It would be wrong to prioritize kind of the well-being of others
29:27
versus Myself. Because then I'm, you know, I'm
29:32
not honoring the same principle that I apply to others to this
29:36
form, to this Mechanical Mind, that is equally thrown into the
29:41
difficulties of its own existence.
29:42
So it does make sense. I think, even within logotherapy
29:46
to balance those out and practice and not to kind of lean
29:51
towards one or the other two to favor, either myself or others
29:57
and specific. Situation.
30:00
Good. Okay, so so that's on
30:04
encountering. Someone understanding them and
30:07
feeling love towards them, right?
30:08
But again, I mean, it's a good thing to do every now and then.
30:12
But obviously in this world, you can't be 100% on this idealistic
30:18
path or all time. Yes.
30:20
So then coming to his third tenant, which is finding meaning
30:25
in suffering. So here, We may go through it a
30:31
little better than I do. I was reading something last
30:33
night about, you know, Jack Bogle, whose bubble is the
30:38
founder of Vanguard mutual funds.
30:40
He seems like a cool. I used to call him st.
30:45
Jack that you know, I'm going to be I'll tell you, when I read
30:49
about him in his autobiography or the books he wrote from the
30:54
books. I'm reading on what people
30:55
observed him, you know, you see, two different angles and even
30:59
though he He was going through suffering, he didn't have a
31:03
private jet, he donated half the money.
31:05
He got, he still had the same human tendencies in the fear
31:09
that after he dies, no one would remember him things to that
31:13
nature but then I will relate that back to these three but
31:17
coming to the finding meaning in suffering.
31:19
What he's saying is the Third Avenue were helpless victims or
31:23
victims, who have suffering? May feel empowered is by facing
31:28
their suffering head on. In that coming out as being much
31:32
stronger. Yes, right.
31:34
So kind of like and what he says is, don't lie suffering
31:39
unnecessarily and this is something I spoke with you.
31:42
I think a couple times in our own personal sessions where I
31:46
was telling you that, you know, a lot of these, you know,
31:51
positive thinkers stalkers. What they do is they don't eat
31:55
for a week because what they're trying to do is they're trying
31:57
to suffer and they're trying to say, okay, I'm going to put my
32:00
body through the suffering. So in the event, I end up in
32:02
that situation. I know I can survive, right.
32:05
So that's more of an artificial suffering because they know they
32:07
can break eat at any time versus real suffering, right?
32:11
Like, in the concentration camps, right?
32:14
It is real suffering in the concentration camp or for
32:18
someone with a, with a medical illness, they can't get out of
32:22
it. But what he's saying is instead
32:25
of suffering and feeling miserable, take that.
32:28
And turn that around and say, oh, Okay, let me see how I
32:31
reacted to it. And coming out stronger.
32:33
Yes, now again idealistic. Yes, very good.
32:38
You want to be that you want to be the person coming out
32:41
stronger and maybe once you come out stronger you look back and
32:44
you're like yes, I overcame it. But while you're going through
32:48
it, what do you like? What do you think?
32:50
Like, what would you recommend to one of your clients about
32:53
this so? Well, first of all, I think to,
32:57
to further characterize, what this approach with me, Mean is
33:01
the reflection of another principle that logotherapy
33:03
applies which is basically that no matter what happens in your
33:08
life because ultimately, your spirit, ultimately the spirit
33:13
has free will, it's free. It's not bound to the mechanical
33:17
aspects of the psyche. So, no matter what happens, you
33:21
can still choose to interpret or to see whatever happens in a
33:28
different light, This is up to you.
33:32
Theoretically. Yes.
33:33
You know, when you're in strong pain it makes it more difficult
33:36
and so on pushes you into the mechanical mind.
33:39
But even in those situations if you really are able to tap into
33:45
your spirit, you can find purpose in continuing, you can
33:51
find purpose and, you know, in spite of the suffering that you
33:54
have to support. For example, other people who
33:56
are suffering at the same time, you can find learn a little
34:03
story. He wrote a very nice short
34:05
stories at the end of his life but very simple.
34:08
People peasants, Taylor's street workers, who had a very kind of
34:15
Eve, but heartfelt devotion towards God Christian God and
34:19
that sense and who were able to endure hardship, because of
34:23
that, right? So they went through real
34:27
suffering as you call it. You know, the lack of resources
34:32
hardship, difficult work and so on.
34:34
But because of the attitude that they had towards life towards
34:37
that fate, the humbleness, the good spirit, the ethical
34:41
approach that they had, they could derive a lightness in the
34:49
existence and not be dragged down by the, by the kind of the
34:54
physical, and the Mechanical Mind suffering that they
34:57
experience at the same time. Okay, so let me try to bring it
35:05
back to something and tell me if I understood it in the wrong
35:08
way, what I feel is after reading this and after going
35:12
through it, you know, obviously you can't compare anything to
35:15
the concentration camps that and the people that they suffered.
35:19
But even outside of the camps, it seems like everyone is
35:21
suffering one way or another, right?
35:24
And Lee emotionally. And, you know, now it seems like
35:27
even kids all the way down to 20 years.
35:29
There's 18 years, they are suffering because of all the
35:32
teenagers teenagers are suffering which was unheard of.
35:36
I didn't even think about this until I got to 30 plus and then
35:42
my issues started coming up. But so relatively I think I had
35:48
a decent enough Teenage life. Now the kids are in trouble but
35:52
coming back. So pretty much we are all
35:53
suffering. One way or another emotionally,
35:57
the the value of life. Am I doing something meaningful
36:01
versus when we were hunter-gatherers.
36:03
I assume we weren't suffering. The only thing was fear and
36:06
anxiety, which was real fear and anxiety, because you can be
36:09
present at suffering. To be half eaten by a tiger and
36:15
then escape, and then to limp for the rest of your life and
36:18
not being productive. And I mean, that's real
36:21
suffering right there. Yeah.
36:24
That's true. Or or to give orders looses that
36:28
they didn't have medicine for and yeah, and they would perish.
36:32
That's true. Actually, that's yeah, that's
36:35
true too. So there was some, there was
36:37
different kind of suffering then different and suffering now,
36:40
right? So, basically, Ali if I and I
36:44
don't want to bring back Buddhism into it, but you did
36:47
say it is. What word did you use in
36:51
Buddhism? It says it's always suffering,
36:53
right? That's what we kind of there is.
36:58
There is no way not to suffer. It's just how you react to that
37:04
suffering. That would be logotherapy again.
37:07
Yes. Okay, you can choose to develop
37:10
a different attitude and approach and perspective towards
37:13
the suffering that you're experiencing right now and you
37:16
know, it's it becomes very these kinds of ideas have have become
37:22
widespread in a very diluted form into the everyday
37:26
discourse. So how often you hear people
37:29
say, you know, who experienced something?
37:31
All the say, oh there's what is, what do you say in English?
37:35
Like, there's always a meaning to it, or it's meant to be
37:40
because I have to learn something from it.
37:42
And so on, these are diluted ideas, watered down, ideas, that
37:46
come from such existential approaches, like, like the
37:49
logotherapy, of course, they're not, you know, they're not deep
37:52
and resonant and as kind of Thoreau as those philosophers
37:57
had in mind, but you see how kind of it affected people and
38:01
Strangely enough. It gives people a certain
38:04
constellation even in this superficial way that you just,
38:08
you know, someone dies and then you go and as a consolation that
38:11
you know what, maybe it was for the better as a kind of
38:15
superficial it is, but it does something to them something
38:19
small. Yeah.
38:21
Because what else are you supposed to say?
38:23
Life sucks. You should go kill yourself,
38:25
too. I mean, that's the only other
38:27
option, right? Well, that would be sober
38:29
around, that will be harsh. Punishing.
38:32
But I'm just surprised that even on and such, you know,
38:35
watered-down versions, like slogans.
38:38
And so on, it's it's good for something that people find a
38:42
little bit of consolation in that.
38:44
And this is just a reflection off of much higher principle.
38:47
Of course, that fungal had in mind when he described this
38:52
principle of finding meaning in suffering finding meaning and
38:58
fate, right? Okay.
39:03
I mean, I would think of this more to the strike side where,
39:07
you know, obviously they were talking more around because of
39:12
suffering. You should enjoy what you have
39:14
today. Instead of always seeking to get
39:16
more, you can be happy that you can drink, you know, there are
39:20
people who can't drink because they have issues and you know to
39:24
them the taste of water that they crave it.
39:27
Whereas you can just go glass and drink or walk.
39:30
Go to the bathroom for people who can't go to the bathroom on
39:32
their own, how difficult for them.
39:35
And using using that on a day-to-day basis, to be happier
39:39
for what you have, rather than keep asking for what you don't.
39:42
Yes, and this would be one specific application of this
39:46
principle. But again, to bring it back to
39:48
reality. How often do I work with clients
39:51
who have an issue with themselves or a dissatisfied
39:57
with their life or with a relationship and then they sit
39:59
there? There and kind of in an
40:02
apologetic way. They say, you know, I know there
40:05
are people in Africa who kind of have it much much worse, and I
40:09
kind of feel bad for my luxury plot on.
40:11
So I have and it kind of needs a lot of work from my side, to
40:16
help them, to understand that what they feel is legitimate,
40:20
you know, but it's difficult for them to accept because It's they
40:25
already have applied in the past that position, for example, that
40:27
you mentioned something that, you know, can come from stoic
40:31
wrong, understanding of stoicism to kind of elevate my position
40:37
by reminding myself that other people have a worse life.
40:40
It might work for a while but issues will not go away because
40:46
of that and I cannot maintain this, you know kind of more Eric
40:53
perspective on my issues forever.
40:56
There are legitimate issues that people have with self-respect
41:00
with self love being exposed to circumstances we're not treated.
41:04
Well and this kind of just be, you know, discussed away or by a
41:08
flip in my attitude and reminding myself that other
41:11
people can drink. Hmm.
41:14
Now let's just a legitimate, you know, to feel bad because I'm
41:17
waking up. Depressed, is super legitimate,
41:20
doesn't matter if I live in a mansion or not, I feel bad.
41:25
So what should they do in that case?
41:27
I mean of course he's talking about Lola, Clara P, obviously
41:30
he did have clients coming to him and people who do 100%
41:35
follow his technique, what is it that they are supposed to do if
41:39
they're going through suffering like other than counseling.
41:42
How should they approach life or?
41:43
Or are you saying each person's scenarios different and they
41:47
should work out towards what's best for their scenario?
41:51
Yes. So personally I have to say, I
41:53
don't know. Anyone who is kind of a devoted
41:55
follower of Uncle. So I don't know what it would
41:57
mean by the book to apply this to 100% but because, well, let
42:04
me put it historically again in a different perspective.
42:07
So funko's kind of logotherapy is something relatively specific
42:12
but at around the same time in the thirties and forties, the
42:16
humanistic approaches to psychotherapy in general came up
42:19
which was called, Rogers, person-oriented client oriented.
42:23
Ouch or Fritz, perls Gestalt therapy and they have in common,
42:28
the aspect that they perceive human life as unique.
42:34
And human suffering as unique and Human Experience.
42:37
As you can logotherapy, does the same.
42:39
And what all these approaches have in common is the
42:43
understanding that. Okay?
42:43
If this is unique and the can be no standard answers, then the
42:49
role of the therapist is to tap into this uniqueness and help
42:53
people to process themselves, to feel themselves and to
42:57
understand themselves in a unique way in to forget about
43:00
the criteria of society. And What is good or appropriate
43:05
and so on. So I'm really listening as a
43:06
therapist when I'm in that kind of when I'm upholding these
43:10
principles, I'm really listening.
43:12
And then I'm listening to the very specific dissatisfaction
43:15
there is and I'm giving it the space to express itself.
43:19
And then there is the meaning, you know, there's the meaning of
43:23
interaction and the meaning of feeling oneself and wishing
43:26
oneself, well, that would tap in kind of and Elevate this the
43:30
position of of the client And even without giving specific
43:35
advice often enough, people then afterwards, say, you know, at
43:39
least I got something off my chest and it was good that you
43:42
listen to me like that felt good, right?
43:46
I mean, a sense of basically what you're saying is when
43:48
people do come to you with sufferings, whatever, that might
43:51
be. That's a everyone's suffering is
43:53
a big thing for them. There's someone else may not be,
43:56
but for them, it's a big thing. So, when they come to you, the
44:00
talk about it, let you know, and then you're looking for While
44:03
they're talking at what their suffering is, what is it?
44:07
That is a positive that they feel and you try to elevate that
44:12
positive in their mind. So you know it's a little bit
44:15
less suffering a little bit more tolerable suffering.
44:18
Is that like something but you're saying, well, it's much
44:21
more complex than that. But you know, this one reason we
44:25
can say, why people one category of not feeling well is that
44:30
people don't understand themselves.
44:32
So they might Say I'm here because my partner gets me so
44:37
much reason for jealousy through that behavior and then in the
44:42
conversation, when I'm tapping into, what the feeling, it gives
44:45
them the opportunity to actually understand a little bit better,
44:48
what they feel. So they might, they might come
44:50
to understand for example, you know, actually what gives me
44:53
grievance is the possibility of loss of losing the partner that
44:59
I have. And I you know, I don't know how
45:01
to deal with myself. Yes, I have lost this very
45:04
important person in my life, which is two, three steps Beyond
45:08
where they were stuck before. It's just, I'm jealous or my
45:11
partner's flirting with someone else.
45:13
And that kills me and it's developed and has developed.
45:17
Because I opened up the space and I was interested and curious
45:21
and really investigated with them.
45:25
What is behind those You know superficial phenomenon that they
45:30
receive and this is, I feel it would be within the realm.
45:34
I think of also logo therapists to appreciate the uniqueness and
45:40
the individuality of the client that is in the session with them
45:46
and to help them to get a deeper understanding of the situation
45:50
where they're in. Got it.
45:53
Okay, this this was this was good.
45:56
Doc. So I think with this, I will
45:58
stop questioning you on the book.
46:02
I felt this was very useful. At least from me.
46:05
And anything else you want to close with at this point for
46:09
Franco? Well, again, I would like to
46:12
emphasize the point that come up again.
46:15
And again, when we kind of encounter therapies like that,
46:20
like logotherapy, P. That there is a strong emphasis
46:23
on an idealistic perspective on the human mind and that it might
46:30
lead us to. It might be very seductive for
46:39
us to believe. I would like to live in this
46:41
space that they describe. I want my life to be full of
46:45
purpose. Full Of Love full of Engagement
46:48
and creativity. It sounds great not.
46:52
And then those because those kind of sets of therapy theories
46:57
and therapies and Concepts the so much emphasized, the
47:00
idealistic part. I feel that there is a danger
47:03
that they Don't put enough emphasis on what the shadow
47:09
could be of this approach, which is that people are trapped in an
47:15
ideal that they just cannot uphold in their life.
47:19
And that there is a real suffering that comes from that,
47:24
right? Which is the suffering of a
47:26
hyper criticism against myself, where I'm doing yoga, I'm
47:31
vegetarian and tell myself that I should should be as kind to
47:35
people as I want them to be, you know, be the Principal that you
47:38
want to see in your life. And so on, all these nice
47:41
ideals, right. And then I'm catching myself
47:44
again and again, that I wasn't, I wasn't kind, I ate a Burger
47:48
whatever it was and then the harsh judgment.
47:51
It's like, oh, this is why your suffering, you are not applying
47:54
the principle strong enough. And I feel that at least today,
47:59
maybe because of History, maybe, because the Western Society at
48:03
least went through this. Season 70s where these kinds of
48:06
ideas were so widespread and were ingrained into the value
48:11
system that everyone has or many people have.
48:15
Maybe it's kind of time to kind of let the pendulum swing to a
48:19
more realistic appreciation of also, the mediocre parts of our
48:24
mind and to give them legitimacy so that people don't suffer from
48:27
believing that they are not good people and are not strict enough
48:32
to applying those High principles to their life.
48:34
Why does it make sense to you know, it does it does and I
48:37
think I'm not trying to make a simple relationship but you know
48:42
all these positive thinkers and all these motivational speakers
48:46
when they go out and they talk they make it seem so simple and
48:50
to make it seem like they are consistently following.
48:53
Those principles have People Like Us listening to podcasts
48:56
and we're like, oh my God, we should follow it but then we get
48:59
tired of it and when we don't do it, we feel bad that we don't do
49:02
it, but we should do it. But it's not very possible.
49:06
And as you told me, once it's a product that people are selling
49:09
well and, and, you know, you're buying that product and that may
49:13
not work for you and similarly, you know, I sit and work most of
49:17
the day so I can't think about having a six-pack right that's
49:20
just not going to work. Yeah, that's what I do.
49:24
But having that realization expectation listening to podcast
49:27
getting to that, that's just not going to work and that's where I
49:29
was talking to you about Bogle, although I he's a saint.
49:34
To most of us because he helped us Financial Journeys.
49:38
And in his books talks about how he donated half is money and
49:42
into charity, he never bought a private jet.
49:46
He himself also was really troubled.
49:50
When he gave his own mentee, the CEO position in the
49:54
organization, he wanted it back and even when it was time for
49:57
him to retire, his biggest fear was what if people forget him,
50:02
obviously no one's going to forget him.
50:04
But he had that fear so it's the human mind even when you have
50:09
reached that level of success and you reach that level of
50:12
accomplishment, yeah, still looking for that.
50:15
So I think that's where I can see, where when you look read
50:20
frankl's book, you feel like, wow, this is so idealistic.
50:23
This guy had everything sorted, but I don't know what the real
50:26
thing was with him, right? I mean, we don't, so maybe he
50:29
also had issues. Very couldn't sleep at night, I
50:32
think only, I have that issues. But I think most people do.
50:35
So, again, wouldn't be human if it didn't ride.
50:38
Yeah, that's true. Okay.
50:41
Apart from that aspect, I'm curious because the meaning of
50:44
life, this kind of the topic was important for you and is still
50:48
important, I guess. So, apart from that aspect the
50:52
limitations of such an approach. What did you get out of the
50:56
encounter? With the topic with the book?
50:59
Did it somehow help you? Did it open up possibilities to
51:02
implement things in your life that Weren't there before I
51:06
think so. I think that things that
51:08
takeaways that I have obviously meaning of life, our purpose is
51:13
something. I've been struggling for the
51:15
last iron, five years or distance, the time I'm coming to
51:18
you and I'm now I'm realizing it that there is no one purpose or
51:25
meaning. And it's more around fun,
51:27
spending time with something. I'll give it my dedicated
51:30
attention and then I'll see whether I enjoy it or I don't
51:34
know. Enjoy it and and in the act with
51:36
enjoying it, if I'm doing something good for someone or
51:38
not, so that is all, I could think of, and then if I end up
51:43
getting something where I'm loving it, and I'm doing it and
51:45
it's adding value to society, that's great.
51:48
But I may not even get that and I should be okay with that.
51:52
Like, for the last one week, I can't meditate properly.
51:55
And previously, I would get very frustrated but I'm like, okay,
51:59
maybe this is an offbeat, I'll continue doing what I can so I
52:03
think Helps a little bit, but more than that.
52:06
What I got, which I wasn't thinking I would get is around
52:09
usefulness, and that's what you brought up last week, and I
52:14
tried to look at ducks to didn't help us very cold outside.
52:19
So, in usefulness, what I'm trying to now figure out, is how
52:22
do I insert a feeling that I should always do something for
52:28
someone. Something for someone else, how
52:30
can I be happy in or with what? I am, or in terms of existing, I
52:37
don't know. People think of it bad that when
52:40
someone says, oh, so you're just existing, but, could you be
52:44
existing and be happy? I mean, not everyone could be
52:48
Bogle, not everyone could be Warren, Buffett not, everyone
52:51
could be, you know, even taking us to the moon or to Mars,
52:55
probably as Elon Musk is, but, can you be still okay with
53:00
yourself without judging? I don't think I can get there
53:03
anytime. I mean, but that's a concept I
53:06
would like to play with it a little bit more.
53:08
So that's what I got out of all this at least for now.
53:13
Okay, well, I'm glad to hear it. And, you know what?
53:17
Other contributes, kind of two hours can sense of where we are
53:23
and how to deal with all those complications of ourselves
53:27
within, and the complications of life is a step forward, and I
53:31
think it's kind of its realistic Attic.
53:34
And it makes sense to not to disregard those Mortals that we
53:40
find on the way and I'm glad that it supported you in some
53:44
way. Well, perfect.
53:46
Thank you. Doc.
53:47
Thanks for your time. Okay.
53:48
Thank you. Attic.
53:34
And it makes sense to not to disregard those Mortals that we
53:40
find on the way and I'm glad that it supported you in some
53:44
way. Well, perfect.
53:46
Thank you. Doc.
53:47
Thanks for your time. Okay.
53:48
Thank you.