Latest / Beyond The Horizon / Mega Edition: The Captain Of Security Operations At MCC And His OIG Deposition (Part 1-3) (9/4/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: The Captain Of Security Operations At MCC And His OIG Deposition (Part 1-3) (9/4/26) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to take a
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: look at the statement given by Captain Jermaine Darden, who
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: was interviewed multiple times by the OIG's office in regards
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to what happened to Jeffrey Epstein while at MCC. And
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: like usual, when I say question, that's the investigator. And
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: when I say answer, that's Mr. Darden answering the question.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: So we're just going to jump right in with them
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: swearing him in. Question. This interview with Federal Bureau of
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Prisons employee. Let me see. Is it Jermaine? Jermaine. Yes. Question.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Redacted is being conducted as part of an official U.S.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General investigation. Today's
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: date is again June 15th, 2021. This interview is being
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: conducted at the West Side within the West Side Administrative Building,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: 2nd Floor, Conference Room, FCI Fort Dix in New Jersey.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent Redacted and Mr. Redacted.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: This interview will be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent Redacted.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Could everyone please identify themselves for the record and spell
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: their last names? So they go through all of that
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: stuff and then they start getting to it. Question. Did
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: you have any employment prior to the BOP? Answer. Yeah,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I worked almost two years for the Colorado Department of Corrections. Question. Okay. Answer.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: As a correctional officer. And before that, I spent 11 years,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: almost 10 years, well, nine years, 11 months in the
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: United States Army. Question. Awesome. Thanks for your service. When
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: did you work as a correctional officer for two years? Answer.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: In Colorado. I believe the dates were from July 2004
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: to to November 27th or November 26th of 2005. Question, okay, great.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: And then you said that you were in, did you
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: say the Army? Answer, yeah. Question, what was your rank
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: in the Army? Answer, I was a sergeant. Question, honorable discharge? Answer, yup. Question,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: when you left, what was your primary responsibility? Answer, basically
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: at the time, I was a section sergeant as a
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: topographical surveyor. Question, okay, and what was that? Answer, it's
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: a topographical surveyor. Question, oh, a surveyor. Answer, indiscernible, surveyor, right. Question, okay, perfect.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: And then you said a sergeant, E4, E5. Answer, E5. Question, E5.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: All right. When was your enter on duty date with
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: the Bureau of Prisons? Answer, 9-27-2005. No, I'm sorry, 11-27-2005. Question,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: and when did you graduate from BOP training at the
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Federal Law Enforcement Training Center? Answer, I believe it was
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: March of 2006. Question, okay. We don't have to go
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: through it, or I guess just briefly. I mean, what
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: positions have you held with the BOP? You don't have
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: to go into each institution. Answer, right. I started as
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: a five-step one. I've, with more responsibility, I was promoted
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: through six, seven senior officer specialists. I was also a
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: GL-9 lieutenant, a GL-11 lieutenant, I was a deputy captain, GL-12,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: and I was also GL-13, and currently I'm at GL-12,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: disciplined hearing officer at FCI Fort Dix. Question, all right, great.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: And is it correct that you used to work at
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: the MCC in New York City? Answer, that is correct. Question,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: all right. And what was your position when you were
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: at MCC? Answer, I was a captain. Question, okay, and
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: from what dates were you the captain? Answer, I was
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: the captain from September of, I believe it was 3rd, 2018,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: all the way till June 25th of 2020. Question, okay, great,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and then from what dates were you the captain? Answer,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I was captain from September of, I believe it was 3rd, 2018,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: all the way to June 25th of 2020. Question, okay, great,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: and then was that your first assignment as a captain? Answer, no,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: it was my second. Question, what was your first assignment
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: as a captain? Answer, my first assignment as a captain,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I was a deputy captain at MDC Brooklyn. Question, okay,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and then you got promoted and went to MCC. Answer, yeah. Question,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: and what does MCC stand for? Answer, the Metropolitan Correctional Center. Question, perfect,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: and located at 150 Park Row, New York, New York. Answer,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: that's correct. Question, thank you, sir. As a captain, would
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: you consider your supervisor when you were at MCC? Answer,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: it would be. At that point, at that time, we
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: was transitioning. So I would normally, I would answer to
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: two people, which would be the AW of custody, which
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: at the time was redacted. However, he was transitioning when
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: that incident happened. It was redacted as the AW over
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: custody at the time. Question, all right. So when you're
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: talking about that time, are you talking about August 9th
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: and August 10th? of 2019? Answer, that is correct. Question, okay,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: so are you aware of Redacted was still in the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: A & W charge of custody at that time? Answer, no. Question,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: she was not. Answer, no. Basically, what it was again,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: with the area of responsibility that had changed prior to
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: the incident. So that week, Ms. Redacted was going to be,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: even though her responsibilities had changed as the A &
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: W over custody, and Warden D.I. had appointed or instructed
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that Ms. Redacted would then take over the responsibilities. But however,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: she was supposed to go on annual leave. So at
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: the time, Ms. Redacted was actually there as far as
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: she was still in that capacity when the incident happened. However, again,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: the previous question that was asked normally as my responsibilities,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I would notify the AW over custody and also I
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: would have conversations with the warden. So it would just
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: depend on what the situation may be. So if there
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: was instances where I would run things through the chain
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: from the AW to the warden, and there were times
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: that I would take direction directly from the warden question. Okay.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: As far as though in this instance, if you know,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: being that August 9th and August 10th, I believe that
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: the first person you contacted, he gets cut off by Mr. Darden.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: It was redacted question. And that was because the other
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: AW was out. Is that what you were saying? Answer,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: my belief is that she was on annual leave, which
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: was stated that we had closed out on that Friday,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: that she would be starting annual leave. Question, okay, but
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: the other AW was in fact your supervisor at the time. Answer, yes. Question, okay,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: which you just said was you went with redacted because
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: she was on. Answer, that's right. Question, okay, have you
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: since learned anything about like, was that not correct? Answer. Well,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: what I realized is that once the incident had occurred, A.W.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Redacted responded to the institution, at which time her annual leave,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I believe she canceled her annual leave, and she assumed
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: her position as A.W. over custody. Question. All right. How
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: do you spell her last name? Answer. Ms. Redacted. Question. Perfect.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you. All right. So, is it correct that you
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: were interviewed by agents of the FBI and the DOJ
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: and OIG back when this instance occurred in August of 2019? Answer,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: that is correct. Question, great. I'm just going to go
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: over the report that was written in response to their
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: conversation with you. We want to just go over for
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: accuracy as well as to fill in some gaps that
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: we found that we just need some clarification on. Answer, absolutely. Question,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: so I'm just going to read it, and you stop
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: me if there is anything that you find that is inaccurate. Answer, correct. Question,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: all right, so Redacted began his career with BOP in Florence,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Colorado in 2005. In 2014, he was transferred to the
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Metropolitan Detention Center, MDC, in Brooklyn to captain at MCC,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: his current position. He gets cut off by Darden. Yeah,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: there's a lot missing in between there. Question, yeah, yeah. Right, right.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: So it says in Brooklyn, I miss this line. It
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: says where he was made deputy captain in 2015. In 2018,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Redacted was promoted to captain at MCC, his current position,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: where he oversees security for the entire building. Answer, well, yeah,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: there was a little bit missing there because, yeah, I
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: entered on duty and I started my career in Florence. However,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: I left Florence in 2009 and that's when I went
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: to Pollock, FCC Pollock. And then from FCC Pollock from 2009,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I was there to 2014. And then from 14, I
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And then in 18,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: that's when I assumed duties at MCC. Question, okay. So
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: they have, yeah. So I guess you were transferred to
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: the MDC in Brooklyn in 2014. And in 2015 was
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: when you were promoted to deputy captain. Answer, that is correct. Question, okay.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: It says directly supervises. Approximately 13 lieutenants. Does that comprise
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: all of the lieutenants? This was at the time. Was
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: that all of the lieutenants at MCC? Answer, correct. Question, okay.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: And it has approximately 125 to 135 line staff correctional
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: officers under his purview. Answer, yes. Well, you know, when
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: they say that. what they understand is that under correctional
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: services that was probably the amount of staff that was
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: again in correctional service as subordinate staff however my direct
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: supervision would have been just over the 13 lieutenants question
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: okay there are 13 oh 13 lieutenants right I thought
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: you were saying GS-13, gotcha. Redacted also sits on the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: institution's executive staff, which also includes the warden. Redacted's primary
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: duty is to ensure that the security protocols are met
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: by his lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy guidelines are
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: being followed as set forth by the BOP. Answer, correct. Question,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: among others, redacted, is responsible for the following. Special housing
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: unit lieutenant. Lieutenant redacted. Is that correct? Answer, correct. question,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: as an administrative lieutenant responsible for maintaining paperwork, so when
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: you say an administrative lieutenant here, are you saying whoever
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: was acting in the administrative capacity? Answer, no, I wasn't. Basically,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: administrative duties. The administrative duty falls under the appointed shoe lieutenant.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: The shoe lieutenant, the appointed shoe lieutenant, has certain duties
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: that have to be done daily within the unit. not
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: just the supervision of the line staff that work the unit,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: but also over all on running of the unit, meaning
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: that ensuring that all paperwork is done. Question. Okay. Answer.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: All security protocols are followed to ensure that inmates or
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: run rosters to ensure that inmates are placed in the
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: correct cells or in the proper cells to ensure that
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: they're supposed to audit said rosters to ensure that they
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: have proper accountability of the inmates in the unit. Question,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: so I guess what I was getting at is like
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: how the shoe lieutenant was redacted. Was there a specific
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: person that was the administrative lieutenant? Answer, yeah. The administrative
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: lieutenant at the time was redacted. Question, and do you
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: happen to know how to spell that last name? Answer,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: it's redacted. Question, thank you, sir. An SIS lieutenant responsible
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: for paperwork. And who was that? Answer, which lieutenant? Question, yes. Answer, okay,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and operations and activities, Lieutenant. Answer, which are on the
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: day of the incident? Question, yeah, and would you like
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: to see the duty roster for August 9th and August 10th? Question, no, okay,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: do you know who it was? Answer, so I believe
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the morning, watch Lieutenant. When that incident occurred, was Lieutenant,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: what's her damn name? I just said her name. Question,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I can show you this. Answer, yeah. Question, so I'm
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: showing you duty agent roster from, or daily assignment roster,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: from Friday, August 9th, 2019, as well as one from Saturday,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: August 10th, 2019. And you can keep them in front
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: of you. Just so you can, we're going to talk
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: about people so you can reference the two. Answer, so, right,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: it appears here it would have been redacted Would have
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: been the operations lieutenant on Saturday, August 10th, 2019. Question,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and is it redacted? Answer, yeah. Question, perfect. And what
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: time did she work? Answer, at that time, the shift
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: they were working, a different schedule. The schedule was, I believe,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: it was 10 to 6. Question, okay, so 10 p.m.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: on August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. Answer, that
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: is correct. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: right here. And in the next episode, we're going to
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: pick up where we left off. All the information that
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: where we left off with a deposition given to the
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: OIG inspectors by CO slash Lieutenant slash Captain Jermaine Darden. Question. Question.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And then, I'm assuming, there was another administrative lieutenant, you know,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: when Epstein was discovered, and I think that was a
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: little bit after 6 a.m., correct? Answer, yeah, that was
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: actually the operations lieutenant, which was redacted. Lieutenant redacted. He
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: informed me, or I guess he became aware of the incident,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I believe, at 6.30 that morning. Redacted, okay, so I
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: already asked the operations lieutenant. It says the operations lieutenant
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: and the activities lieutenant are responsible for day-to-day operation. and
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: maintaining order for three shifts, and an emergency preparedness lieutenant.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: A collateral duty responsibility in the event of an emergency incident,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: such as fires, bombs, threats, etc. So, during these instances,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: was there an emergency preparedness lieutenant? Answer, yes. Question, who
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: was that? Answer, I believe it was Lieutenant Redacted. Question,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant Redacted, okay. Was Lt. Redacted off that day though?
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Answer Lt. Redacted was, I believe at that time, his schedule,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the SHU lieutenants were not working on the weekends. They
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: worked Monday through Friday, I believe it was 7.30 to 4.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: So Lt. Redacted was on military, he was on leave.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: He had military leave because he had his monthly drill
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: that he would attend. Question, Do you know if he
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: was on leave both on August 9th and August 10th
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: or August 10th? You said he wouldn't have worked, but
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: was he on the 9th? Answer, let me see here. Question,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and you can just say, was he on the schedule? Answer, yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: So I mean, right here, I'm looking at the roster
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: for Friday, August 9th, and I believe that the shoe
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: lieutenant post was left unassigned for that Friday. Question, all right.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: So that would just lead us to believe that he
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: was not there, correct? Answer, that's correct, he was not there, no. Question, great.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: And would his position have been like, you know, was
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: there someone that's placed in the acting role when he's gone? Answer,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: normally due to our staffing at MCC at that point,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: or at that time, we tried to ensure that, you know,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: looking over the roster, to try to ensure that someone
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: was within there, the supervising unit. But again, due to
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: the shortage of lieutenants at the time, I had to,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: as monitoring, or looking at the roster... I would try
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: to place areas of importance so operations lieutenants ensured that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the activities lieutenant was filled. And at that time, that
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: particular day, he wasn't on the roster, or that post
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: was left unassigned. Question, and that post, like you said,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: isn't assigned on the weekends? Answer, no. Question, so Saturday, great. Answer,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: no it's not. Question, alright. Redacted advised that his staff
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: provide special considerations for high-profile inmates. It deemed appropriate. And
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: designated as such, in order to ensure an inmate is
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: providing or provided with proper care, the facility evaluates the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: inmate using several measures, including mental, physical, medical, psychological, and
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: sexual assault victim or predator assessments. Since different inmates are
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: admitted with different criteria, appropriate housing varies. Question, all right.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Redacted interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on approximately three occasions
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: at MCC. all of which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Answer correct. Question. During the first instance, Epstein asked Redacted
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: who he was, and Redacted responded by introducing himself and
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: explaining his position at the jail. During another instance, Redacted
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: explained to Epstein the policy regarding meals during attorney sessions
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: and made certain Epstein was accommodated with water, visits to
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: the restroom, etc. So did he receive, and I know
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: it's my understanding, that he was most days in with
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: his attorney? Answer, yeah. So most days from the time
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: that the attorney visitation would open, inmate Epstein was in
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the area primarily until it closed. Question, all right. And
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that's where it says Epstein spent most of the day
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: with his defense counsel and was brought down as soon
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: as the attorney visit opened. So would that be like
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Monday through Friday? Answer, no. That's he gets cut off
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: by the guard. That's seven days a week. That's seven
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: days a week. Question. All right. So was it almost
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: every day? Answer. Every day. Question. Okay. And was his
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: food brought to him there? Answer. No. Question. Okay. How
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: would he obtain his food? Answer. Now, as far as food,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I know. And like I said, it's been a while.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Normally inmates do not eat while they're on visitation. They're
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: provided water. They're provided to go to the bathroom. The inmate,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: you know, is afforded the meal. However, I believe that
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: he was offered meals from the vending machine. I'm not sure.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I can't remember as far as, because I didn't remember
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: there was an issue with that. And I know he
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: tried to accommodate or address it. I just can't remember
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: what was done. Question, would the attorneys be allowed to
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: bring him in food? Answer, no. Question, no. Answer, no.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: No outside food would have been allowed. Question, okay. Answer.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: So I can't tell you if he was actually getting
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: a tray during that time. I can't remember. But I
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: do remember there were conversations that, and I know we
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: did something in order to ensure that the inmate was
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: provided some type of meal or whatever. I can't remember. Question. Sure.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: All right. That's fine. As far as the, it mentions
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: two visits. Do you remember anything about the third visit
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: that you made with Epstein? Answer. The third visit. So
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: that night. That would be Friday, August 9th of 2019.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I believe I had worked the day close to 8.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: It was 8 or so. Question, 8 p.m. on August 9th. Answer,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: 8 p.m. Correct. So I was actually on my way.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: and exited, you know, went and talked to the operations
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: and activities lieutenants. You know, let them know that I
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: was leaving for the day. And when I reached the
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was being escorted
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: out of attorney visit by his unit manager. Question, okay,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: and who was that? Answer, which was, I believe... redacted.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: At which time I, you know, I said, hello, how
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he was like, okay. So
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: he had to ask me and he said, captain, is
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: it okay if I get a telephone call? Now, mind you,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: we had already discussed that when the inmate, we would
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: reasonably attempt to always facilitate a phone call for the inmate,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: especially while being housed in special housing unit. So I
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: said to the unit manager, Mr. Redacted, I said, Mr. Redacted,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: are you going to the shoe? He said, yeah. I said, well,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: are you going to be able to monitor the call
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: with the inmate? And he was like, yeah, I got
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: no problem with that. I said, well, I don't have
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: a problem. Just make sure that you follow the protocols.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: And the protocol is when that inmate is allowed to
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: use the phone, it has to be monitored by staff
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and the number and who they're talking to has to
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: be placed in a log. Question, OK, answer. So I said,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: make sure that that takes place. I'm good with it.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: So that's when I got in the elevator and I
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: exited the institution. Question. All right. So this conversation happened
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: with redacted in front of Mr. Epstein. Answer. Yes, it did. Question. Okay.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: And that's the point where. Okay. So did you authorize
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: that call to be made from the shoe? Answer. Yeah. Question.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Was there a certain line that they should have used? Answer. Yeah.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It's a secure line. You have two lines. You know,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: you can plug it into the outgoing and then it's
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: the jack that's just for inside of the institution calls.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Or you can put it into the other jack, which
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: allows those calls to be outgoing. Question, would that be
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: called a legal line? Answer, yeah. It would be just
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: an out. It would be an out. An outline. And
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: they're not recorded. Answer, right. Question, and that's why you
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: said make sure that it's on a recorded line. Answer, correct. Question,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: did you tell him at all to document what was
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: being said? Answer, yeah. I told him to ensure that
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: he was present. that the protocol is because I asked him,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I said, look, I said, make sure that you're present
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: at the phone call. I said, make sure that it's logged.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: And when you dial the numbers, the number you have
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: to like stay on the line and said, he says, well,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I want you to call my attorney. Who is your attorney?
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: So on and so forth. Okay. When they answer the phone,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I said, this is MCC. My name is so on
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and so on. I have a call for Jeffrey Epstein.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: What is your name? And what is your title? So
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: we can log it. And at the time, That's it.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: It's logged. And then you give the phone to the
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: inmate and then you sit there while they're on the phone. Question.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: And do you know if that was done? Answer again.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I just insured. That's it. Like I said,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: that's why I asked him. I said, are you going
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to the shoe? And are you going to be able
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: to monitor the phone call? Question. But you don't know
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: if he wrote anything up. Answer. I don't know what
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: he did. Question. Okay. Answer. I just insured that I
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: told him. What needed to be done? Question, and what
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: would happen with that log then, after he logged it? Answer,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the phone call? Or the log? Question, like after he
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: documented it? Answer, it would be maintained, just in the log.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't be brought for anyone's review, you know? It
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: would just be, hey, did you, did Epstein get a call? Yeah,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I could tell you, so I could pull the book,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: and then I can tell you, and look, that when
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: he was given the call. Question, so if it goes
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: into a specific Epstein file? Answer, yeah. No, it wouldn't.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: It doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: It goes into a book for monitored calls for all
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the inmates and legal calls. Question, for all inmates, so
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: not just Epstein. He gets cut off. That is correct. Question,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: it would be a green log book, you know, and
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: it would have the name of the inmate and who
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: they called, the number, the time. I don't know if
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the duration is on there, but it will have the
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: person who also monitored the call. So, you know, all
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: that information... but it wasn't something like a form that
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: was filled out and then placed in the inmate's file
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: or central file. No, it wasn't like that. Question. And
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: do you know if that log in the book was
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: filled out? Answer. I don't know. Question. You don't know. Okay.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: When you met with Epstein on that night, how was
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: his demeanor? Answer. It was fine. He was cheerful. You know,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: he didn't look disheveled. He felt because I asked him,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I said, how you doing? You all right? He said, Man,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I'm good. Everything is fine. And I said, did you
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: have a good visit? And he said, yeah, everything's fine, Cap.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: I said, all right, man. Question, okay. Answer, you know. Question,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: no cause for concern. Answer, no. Because every time we
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: had that interaction, it was always pleasant. It was never negative. Question, okay.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: It says, redacted was made aware of the possibility that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Epstein would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's arrival.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Redacted was not present when inmate Epstein was admitted into
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the facility. Epstein was thoroughly vetted to determine if he
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: was fit for general population and was ultimately placed in
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: the special housing unit. MCC places inmates under three categories
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: of close supervision. One, dry cell for those at risk
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: of smuggling contraband. Two, psychological observation. And three, suicide watch. Question,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: is all of that correct? Answer, yes, at that time, yes. Question, okay,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: so who made the decision to place him in the
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: special housing unit specifically and why? Answer, okay, so basically
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: the rationale for placement of the inmate in the special
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: housing unit would have been a decision ultimately made by
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: the warden. They would have took the criteria of the inmate.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: They would have been like, okay, well, what's his risk?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: You know, What would be the likelihood of him being
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: endangered if he would be placed in general population? His culpability.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Can he cope with being inside of a general housing unit?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: So the determination was made between medical health services, oh
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, health services, psychology, and the warden. Question, and
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: who was the warden at the time? Answer, it was Mr. Redacted. Question,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: and do you know how to spell the last name? Answer,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: it would be Redacted. Question, thank you, sir. Are there
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: any other secure housing units within the MCC? Answer, there's
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: only one secured housing unit. That's the SHU. But however,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: we do have 10 South. And 10 South is for,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I believe, those who are SAM inmates and those inmates
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: who are under specialized monitoring, which comes from, I believe,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: it's from the Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: who the person that's over it, but I believe it
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: was the Attorney General or whoever makes the determination that
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: For those Sam's inmates. Question. Okay. And what does Sam
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: stand for? Answer. I believe. I can't remember. Question. Okay.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: But it's like Sam's S-A-M-S. Answer. That is correct. Question. Okay.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Like an acronym though. Answer. It's an acronym. All right, folks,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up right here. And in the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: next episode, dealing with the topic, we're going to pick
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: up where we left off. All the information that goes
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: with this episode can be found In the description box.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to get right
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: back to the captain of security operations at MCC and
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: his interview with the OIG inspectors. Question. All right. Was
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: there any discussion of placing Epstein in one of those units? Answer. No. Question.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Could he have been placed in one of those units? Answer.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he could have. Question. But I mean, by
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: executive staff. Or would they have to have made the
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: call to the... He gets cut off by the guard.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I believe they would have had to make special concessions
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: for the inmate. Question okay. Answer. They would have to,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: you know, vet him. And someone would have to approve it.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I believe outside of the executive staff at MCC. Question okay.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And then that's where I meant by... So the executive
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: staff wasn't able to independently? Answer. No, we were not.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Question okay. Were there many inmates housed within 10 South
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: at the time? Answer, no. I believe at the time,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: we may have had a total of four to five.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Of course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin Guzman
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: up there. We also had the Apple Puff. Fnatic was
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: up there. We also had inmate. It starts with an S.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I can't remember his name. But basically, these are inmates
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: that have made crimes against the United States, which it
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: was deemed that those inmates would be in that special
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: management unit. And they couldn't, of course, go to the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: general population. Question, was this like a terrorist type of people? Answer,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I would say some of them were terrorists. You know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: of course, you had Joaquin Guzman, the terrorist, the drug kingpin, etc.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: He couldn't go on the general population. He would. Normally,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: guys like that would be in places where I come
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: from before, you know, like Florence. He'd be at the ADX. Phonetic, APOV,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: I believe that Apopov, I think that was his name,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Apopov or Sopopov, these guys had made terrorist threats against
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the United States. Or there was guys up there that
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: had material or that was found in cooperation with outside
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: agencies that was trying to detriment of indiscernible and cause
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: harm to the United States. These kinds of guys, they
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: were put in that unit. Guys you wouldn't want in
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: general population. because of their recruitment value or their radical
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: ability they could be able to do have recruitment value
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: for you know for other inmates in the general population
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you don't want those guys in there but Jeffrey Epstein
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: you know he's a multi-billionaire question sure now as far
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: as 10 south is that one inmate per cell Answer, yes. Question,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: and video monitored at all times? Answer, yes. Question, okay.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: So it's like you're a maximum security type? Answer, that
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: would be the highest security that an inmate, an MCC,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: would be placed in. Question, okay. Answer, yeah, could be
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: placed in. Question, but the executive team never discussed that? Answer, no. Question, okay.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Redacted advised that Epstein preferred not to have a cellmate
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid having one. What
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: type of behavior? He gets cut off by the guard?
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: I believe that Epstein, and when he first came in,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: he was doing self-manipulative behavior. You know, he was showing passive,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: resistant activity, as far as you know, when they're taking meals,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: or wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when they're
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: giving him direction. You know, he would sit in his cell,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and he wouldn't talk. You know, I believe he wasn't
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: taking meals at one point. He was refusing to take showers.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Things of those nature. Question. Question. And the sentence continues,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: including requesting to see a psychologist. Answer, yeah. Question, is
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: that part of it? Answer, yes. Question, okay. Did he
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: say why he wanted to see a psychologist? Answer, I
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: don't know. Question, no. Answer, I don't remember that, no. Question, sure.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: At Epstein's request, he was interviewed by a psychologist. Do
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: you know who he made that request to? Would it
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: have been Shustaff? Answer, he probably made that request... to
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: any of the staff that may have been monitoring him
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: at the time. Because if he was placed on psychological
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: observation at the time, psychological observation, you would have had
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: to have staff person that sat there and monitored the inmate.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Another inmate couldn't have done it. Question, okay, and that,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: is that like 24-7? Answer, that would have been 24 hours,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: seven days a week. Question, so a staff member would
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: just sit there and watch him? Answer, correct. Question, communicate
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: with them or no? Answer, yeah, of course. Question, okay. Answer,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: I mean. And that's, you know, encouraged. I mean, you know,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: even though the inmate's placed in that situation, again, we're
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: talking about humanity here. You know, you want to gauge
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: this guy's mental acuity, meaning that the inmate, you want
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: to know how he's feeling, how he's doing. Is he
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: improving or is he declining? Because if he's declining and
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: you can actually see it, you want to contact somebody.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: You know, if this guy is in there being very, very,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: you know, belligerent, he's being passive-aggressive or active-resistant, or displaying
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: signs of violence, you want to make sure that you
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: notify someone. You're not just going to sit there and
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: allow the guy to do self-harm to himself or a
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: staff member when they come to the door to provide
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: his services, you know, such as taking him to shower,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: providing his meals, providing his medication, or whatever it is.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: So you just don't want to sit there and allow
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: the inmate just, you know, if he's going to be detrimentally,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: could be a harm to staff or himself, you want
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: to ensure that you notify someone. Question, okay, so following
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: this assessment, Epstein was initially placed on suicide watch. He
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: was later interviewed again and downgraded to psychological observation. Now,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: just for the suicide watch and psychological observation, where are
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: they located? Answer, those would be conducted downstairs on the
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: second floor in the health services area. Question, and that's
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: outside of the shoe, correct? Answer, that is correct. Question,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: and that was prior to any attempt on his life
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: or anything like that? Answer, that is correct. Question, okay.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: After some time, he was returned to the shoe. Redacted
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: began hearing talk that Epstein was trying to get back
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: on suicide watch. Information like this is usually generated from rounds, kites,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: and kiter notes, correct? Answer, correct. Question, and notes from
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: inmates specifically, correct? Answer, it could be, yes. That could
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: be an inmate correspondence. Question, yeah, and monitoring phone calls
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and letters. So the hearing of talk that's all based
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: upon inmate talk Answer, that would have been all that staff. Question, okay,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: staff as well. Answer, you know, staffing sitting there. And,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: you know, especially when he's on suicide watch. You know,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: staff are taking notes. So it's every 15 minutes, you know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: staff is, oh, I'm sorry, every 30 minutes, I believe.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. It's been a while. But, you know,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a staff member, it's every 30 minutes, I believe, is
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: taking a log of what the inmate's doing inside of
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: his cell. You know? So what he's doing, you know?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: The inmate's facing to the right. The inmate's facing away
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: from the staff. The inmate is, you know, doing what?
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Or makes these statements. Those statements will be written on
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: the log. Question. Okay. It says on or about July 23rd, 2019,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Epstein was found unresponsive on the floor of his cell
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest. When
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: you say a homemade piece of fabric, can you explain
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: that a little bit? Answer. Okay. Basically a homemade piece
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: of fabric. It could be anything. Because it's out of
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the special housing. That's what we're talking about, right? Answer, yeah.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm talking about specifically in this instance. Do
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: you know what it's meant? By found on the floor
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest? Answer,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: it could have been fragments from a t-shirt. It could
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: have been fragments from sheets. It could have been fragments
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: from cloth. He gets cut off by the investigator. That
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: they could tie together. Answer, it was tied together. You know,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: to make some type of homemade. Fashioned. He gets cut
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: off by the investigator. Did you see it at all, though, yourself? Answer,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. Question, okay, sure. Epstein's cellmate had flagged
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the attention of a staff member who handcuffed the cellmate
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: and removed Epstein to bring him to a medical unit.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Do you recall at that time who his cellmate was? Answer, Tartaglione. Question, okay, great.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: And did you, all right, we talk about him in
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: a little bit, redacted her from his staff that Epstein
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: may have been faking unconsciousness? Do you know who told
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: you that? Answer, well, basically, in memorandum, I remember when
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: it was reported to me and I made my report,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I believe it was the report of incident by Lieutenant Redacted. Redacted,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and I believe that she put out an email which
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: concluded behavior to manipulate the situation through his statements and
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: what was observed by medical staff. So basically, they were
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: saying that the incident didn't occur as the inmate may
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: have tried to make it look or occur. Question, because
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: he was not observed opening his eyes and making other
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: suspicious movements not consistent with an unconscious state. Or sorry,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: because he was observed opening his eyes and making other
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: suspicious movements not consistent with an unconscious state. Epstein was
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: medically assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed that his cellmate,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Tartaglione, tried to take his life. Was that investigated? Answer,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I believe no. I mean, I can't remember, but I
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: believe a report of incident may have been done. Question okay, answer,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: and primarily, when a report of incident is generated, so
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: any time that an incident happens in the institution, I'm
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: going to walk you through this. The lieutenant that's on
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: shift is supposed to do the initial fact-finding, the gathering
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: of evidence. And all of these things, and then they
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: write a brief synopsis, and it's put a packet, and
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: then ultimately SIS department will investigate it, especially if we're
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: having an assault, which would have been a. 224A, which
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: is a minor assault, of another. So pictures would have
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: been taken, clinical assessments of both inmates would have been taken,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: witness statements would have been taken. All of these things
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: would have been done and it goes into an investigative packet.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Question sure, so redacted lieutenant, redacted, would have created it
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: and provided it to SIS? And do you know if
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: there was any credibility found to the claim that Epstein
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: made that this other, his cellmate, had tried to take
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: his life? Answer, I don't believe there was any credibility
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: that was ever concluded that that incident happened. Question, and
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: do you know anything about when he was initially found,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: if the homemade rope or whatever it was, was found
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: around his neck? Or it says in this, on his chest.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Anything with that? With, you know, do you know what
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: I mean? Like if someone has trying to hang themselves,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: if it came on their chest, do you know anything
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: about how that may have happened? Answer, I mean, forensically,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't know. I'm not an investigator on that level,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: so I can't really tell you the position of any
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: type of homemade fashioned item that would be used to
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: facilitate a suicide attempt or an assault attempt. That's not
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: my level. Again, I'm trying to remember what it was
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: or what was used, but again, I don't know exactly.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: So I can't really determine or give you that type of,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't have that expertise in that area.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: So he gets cut off by the investigator. But the
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: information that was provided to you suggested that he tried
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to take his own life, not that the cellmate tried
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: to take his life? Answer, correct. That's the inconclusive that
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the inmate had, inmate Tartaglione, had tried to kill this
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: guy or tried to do any self-harm to this guy.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: So you have to, so like you have to take
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: advantage because it's one inmate's word against another. So when
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: the investigation comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would have
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: been interviewed. Inmate Tartaglione would have been interviewed. at which
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: time you would have took those statements, you would have waived,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: and then you would have taken into consideration any witness
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: statements or anything that was observed. during the clinical assessment.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: So that's why health services helps us out, because the
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: inmates don't want to understand that everything they're doing or
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: anything they're saying is being entered into that clinical assessment.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: So that's where they were saying that he wasn't, his
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: actions may not have been what they should have been,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: For a person that was quasi-supposed to have been assaulted.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Or if he was supposed to have been unconscious. He
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: was displaying this type of behavior. So again, I wasn't there.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: So I don't know what occurred. I'm just going by
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: what was the information that was relayed back to me. Question, absolutely.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: So as far as Tartaglione, what was he in for? Answer,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: I believe that Tartaglione was responsible for... He was a
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: former police officer, I believe... and I believe he had
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: killed four people, and then he buried them. Buried the
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: victims somewhere up near Otisville Prison. I think that's what
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: it was back in the day. Question, okay. Answer, yeah.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Something like that. Question, so he was actually in for
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: murder though? Answer, yeah, it was murder. He was in
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: for murder, and whatever other stuff he was doing. Question, okay. Answer,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: doing in his capacity as a police officer. Question, and
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: who selected him to be Epstein's Roommate. Answer. I don't
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: remember who vetted Tartaglione, but I will tell you is
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: that even though Tartaglione had murder on his jacket, Tartaglione
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: also was an inmate that had issues being in general population.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: You understand what I'm saying? Question. Former police officer. Answer.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Former police officer. He had issues because I've dealt with
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Tartaglione at Brooklyn. So he was up on one of
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: the units in Brooklyn and he had issues with those
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: inmates in those blocks where they're made for people who
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: are sex offenders. For inmates that have issues with when
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: they go to population general, they can't cope. Formal law enforcement,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: these types of guys are in that unit. So you
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: don't really have that much issue in those types of
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: units because these guys are going to do their time
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: or await their sentence and then move on. So you
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: don't really have a lot of violence. But this guy
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: was always, always in the mix of something. But we
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: couldn't put him in the general population unit and you
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: just can't throw him in the shoe. You know what
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I'm saying? Just because you just can't. So in Brooklyn,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: we had the ability to put him and I think
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: it was K82. I can't remember when he goes to MCC,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: you know, they don't have those type of units, you know,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: so he would have to go into general population or
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: he would go into the shoe. So if the inmate
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: fails the program and said, I'm not going to population,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you can't force me. So when you do his assessment,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: the unit does the assessment. Psychology does their assessment. Health
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: services does that assessment. And they'll say, hey, this guy
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: is clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded him
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: to go. But the inmate said, well, you know, I'm
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: a 306. 306 is refusal for programs. I'm not going.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: So put me in the shoe. So that's how he
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: ended up in the shoe. Question. Sure. So he was
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: in the shoe already. Answer. Yeah. Question. And do you
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: believe he was a good placement for Epstein? Answer. Well,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: at the time, again, you would have to be mindful.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: We don't. How could I put this? Inmates are not
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: placed in cells based on race, or but however, or
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: gang affiliations. All of these things that you know, but however,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: you've had inmates. So you say, okay, well, you have
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: guys up there that, at MCC, that were facing murder charges.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of them. Hey, I mean, if they're
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: in the shoe, that means they can't cope on the outside.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: They can't cope in general population unit. So we look
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: at them just like another inmate. He never hurt another inmate. Question,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: and that was going to be my next question. So
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: he was not known to assault anyone? Answer, bro, he
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: never assaulted another inmate. Question, okay. Answer, yeah, he got
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: a murder beef. Okay, that's fine. But guess what? He's
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: never hurt any inmates while incarcerated. Just to jump in, yeah,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: because you had him in the shoe. That's why. How
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: do you think he'd handle himself in GP? Question, so
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: taking though that he was incarcerated due to murder and
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: that Epstein claimed that he tried to murder him, do
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: you think Do you believe that there was any credibility
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: to that claim? Answer again. What I will say is
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: that I will tell you, like you said, my statements
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: before that it was brought to my attention that inmate
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Epstein was doing behavior that was manipulating, kind of testing
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: the water to see what he could get away with,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: being his initial incarceration. Probably not too familiar with being
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: in jail, but however, he's a smart guy. He kind
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: of figured out what he could do in order for him, one,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: not to go to GP, two, try to get to
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the SHU, and try to get a cell by himself.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: That's kind of where he wanted to go. Question, so then,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: he wanted to go to the shoe by himself, and
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that may have been why he said, okay, okay, so
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: you believe that he made the claim against Artaglione because
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: he wanted to be in a cell by himself? Answer,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: that's in my belief, after looking at everything, and everything
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: that was done, I believe so. I think that would
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: be accurate. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: right here, and in the next episode dealing with the
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: topic we're going to pick up, where we left off.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: All the information that goes with this episode can be
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: found in the description box.