Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Ep14 Ellie Williams Equi Team PA, USA

Transcript

Ep14 Ellie Williams Equi Team PA, USA · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
• 0:03
  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
• 0:07
  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
• 0:11
  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
• 0:16
  Here on Equine Assisted World.
• 0:18
  We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
• 0:23
  established in the equine assisted field.
• 0:27
  This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
• 0:33
  physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
• 0:38
  These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
• 0:43
  Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
• 0:47
  Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:49
  I've got Ellie Williams with me.
• 0:51
  I've known Ellie for a while.
• 0:53
  She runs a pretty Rad gig out in Pennsylvania on the Pennsylvania,
• 1:00
  Maryland bordered borders, but she's actually a Brit.
• 1:03
  Who's a long term resident resident in the USA.
• 1:06
  So you're going to hear a bit of a hybrid accent here, but she does very, very,
• 1:11
  very interesting work in trauma in you know, equine assisted psychotherapy
• 1:17
  of various kinds and in neurofeedback.
• 1:19
  And these are areas which aren't necessarily known so well within
• 1:25
  the equine assisted world.
• 1:27
  And for that reason, I wanted Ellie to come on and educate us a little bit about
• 1:31
  them particularly in the work with trauma, particularly in the work with attachment
• 1:34
  disorders and that sort of thing.
• 1:36
  There's a lot we can learn.
• 1:37
  It goes, as we all know, a lot further than just.
• 1:41
  giving kids pony rides.
• 1:42
  But we've all been at that point where people say, well, you're
• 1:45
  just giving kids pony rides.
• 1:46
  So I'm gonna turn it over to you, Ellie.
• 1:52
  Can you please tell us what you do?
• 1:55
  Who are you and what are you doing?
• 1:56
  Why do you do it?
• 1:58
  Ellie Williams: Well, hopefully we've got a bit of a few
• 2:00
  minutes to answer that question.
• 2:02
  So Ellie Williams, executive director of equity and support services.
• 2:06
  I work in Dallas down Pennsylvania and also in Hunt Valley, Maryland.
• 2:11
  And I have been doing this work started with the equine assistive work back
• 2:16
  in 2006 going on 18 years of just the journey of where the need is.
• 2:22
  We work a lot with children and youth in the foster care system,
• 2:26
  adoptive clientele as well.
• 2:28
  Lots of trauma, lots of abuse and neglect.
• 2:31
  In my journey, I started with the Agala model and quite assisted work.
• 2:36
  And then I found you, which is amazing because I then work with
• 2:40
  our autistic clients within the Horsepoint model and method.
• 2:44
  And it's a great hybrid.
• 2:46
  I still have some great clients and we had the wonderful Temple Grandin at our
• 2:50
  farm many years back and learned a lot from you and her in that area as well.
• 2:57
  And Through my journey, I've been doing a lot with trauma and attachment issues.
• 3:03
  Children in the foster care system have gone through a lot and they,
• 3:07
  they just need, they don't understand how to have healthy attachments.
• 3:11
  So I decided to go and become trained.
• 3:14
  Our local attachment therapist in the area just left.
• 3:17
  So I was like, well, better me.
• 3:19
  I'll, I'll go do it.
• 3:20
  and fell in love with the work.
• 3:22
  I connected with dyadic developmental psychotherapy.
• 3:26
  Dr.
• 3:26
  Daniel Hughes is the creator and he actually lived about an hour, just over
• 3:30
  an hour from me, was able to study under him for about two and a half years.
• 3:35
  And currently on their board of directors as their treasurer, I think by force,
• 3:40
  just because I was the Northeast U.
• 3:41
  S.
• 3:41
  that I became treasurer, but amazing group of people.
• 3:45
  And doing the work with, as you said, attachment and trauma
• 3:48
  the developmental trauma stuff.
• 3:50
  And one of the other wonderful aspects of the work that we do is we provide
• 3:55
  neuro, neurofeedback services using the neuro optimal neurofeedback system.
• 4:00
  And I do that when, when I have an office session, I will hook a client up
• 4:04
  and have a office therapy session with a cat or a dog, because there's always
• 4:07
  animals around in in the work that we do.
• 4:10
  And that's, I call it my magic machine.
• 4:12
  It balances the brain and it helps clients open up and go to a deeper
• 4:17
  level when we're having therapy.
• 4:18
  So, lots of things that we're doing in just our small organization in the
• 4:22
  Northeast Pennsylvania, Maryland area.
• 4:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you're a Brit, you're a horsey Brit.
• 4:27
  We also connected you and I through the Hunt World.
• 4:30
  What got you a horsey Brit?
• 4:33
  Over to Pennsylvania.
• 4:35
  Why does a horsey Brit fall in love with attachment disorders and trauma?
• 4:42
  What's the story?
• 4:43
  Ellie Williams: So I think I think you just follow.
• 4:47
  I don't know.
• 4:47
  It's probably a long winding road.
• 4:49
  Really?
• 4:49
  We moved to the US because my dad's job brought us here.
• 4:53
  And you know, there were a lot of things that happened in my life that
• 4:57
  led me to work for children's services.
• 4:59
  I worked there for about 10 years.
• 5:01
  And there just wasn't great services, you know, there was sort of the traditional
• 5:06
  therapies and it was sort of before, I mean, there was some play therapy
• 5:10
  and I'm not saying they're not great, they are but I wanted something that
• 5:14
  I fell in love with and my love of horses and my love of helping people was
• 5:19
  just, oh, it was just the perfect fit.
• 5:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Trauma, though, and attachment disorders it's a rather
• 5:26
  specialist road because, you know, one's dealing with really intense
• 5:31
  and heightened emotional situations.
• 5:34
  It's not everybody's cup of tea.
• 5:36
  There can be conflict, there can be manipulation, one can feel, you
• 5:40
  know, manipulated by clients even.
• 5:42
  It's, it's, it's, it's complex.
• 5:43
  Ellie Williams: Yes.
• 5:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Anyone who works in the sort of psychotherapy field
• 5:47
  acknowledges that it's it's tricky.
• 5:49
  What was it about that that made you think, yes, actually,
• 5:54
  this is my professional home?
• 5:57
  Ellie Williams: I think, I think when you work with horses, I always,
• 6:01
  I've always worked with young horses.
• 6:03
  I love training young horses and figuring them out and doing a lot of.
• 6:08
  You know, putting the time in and helping them get to know what they need
• 6:13
  to be, you know, what they need to do and jumping and dressage and flat work.
• 6:17
  And, and it's the same with people.
• 6:19
  I just, I find that I have this curiosity and I want to help them live in a
• 6:24
  world without anger and violence and no power struggles and need for control.
• 6:30
  And it's the parallel is just beautiful.
• 6:33
  I mean, horses as a third animal, that's.
• 6:37
  That's what we help them, you know, when we interact with them, it's very
• 6:40
  similar than the kids that, that I work with as well and families as well.
• 6:45
  Rupert Isaacson: So I think a lot of us see that parallel between working
• 6:48
  particularly with young horses and also a lot of us who work with donated
• 6:52
  horses, you know, we get the horses with all the stories that they have
• 6:55
  in their bodies and in their minds and the rehab is very much part of this.
• 7:01
  I think a lot of people can relate.
• 7:03
  However, not everybody.
• 7:06
  Understands the terminology and the world of attachment, talk us through it.
• 7:12
  What is an attachment disorder?
• 7:16
  Ellie Williams: So basically between the age of one and three as a human being,
• 7:22
  we need to have a healthy attachment or build a healthy attachment to our
• 7:27
  caregiver, whoever that might be.
• 7:29
  And most of the time it's mom and dad, or it's just mom or it's just
• 7:32
  dad, or sometimes it's granny, you know, whoever that caregiver is.
• 7:37
  And when you live in a chaotic, violent drug and alcohol, lots of things that
• 7:42
  are unhealthy, you're learning not, well, there's just unhealthy connections.
• 7:49
  You're not able to have a healthy attachment.
• 7:53
  So when you have an unhealthy attachment, it's now disorganized.
• 7:57
  And You don't know, you know, it's kind of like when you have the child say,
• 8:03
  look, mommy, I've made this for you.
• 8:05
  And they go, Oh yes, I'm so proud.
• 8:08
  That's amazing.
• 8:09
  And you have this just nurture and this pride.
• 8:13
  that I have so many children that don't know what that is.
• 8:16
  You know, they, they know the, Hey, mommy, I did this for you.
• 8:21
  And it's like, get out of here.
• 8:22
  You're worthless.
• 8:23
  You know, so they don't have that connection.
• 8:25
  They don't feel connected.
• 8:27
  And then, then they don't know how to connect.
• 8:30
  And that's where the unhealthy attachment and disorganized attachment comes in.
• 8:34
  Rupert Isaacson: What are the usual negative outcomes of that?
• 8:37
  What do we see?
• 8:38
  Why do we need to be paying attention to this?
• 8:41
  Ellie Williams: So as kids get older, they're going to have
• 8:45
  difficulty in their peer relations.
• 8:47
  They're going to struggle socially.
• 8:50
  They're going to try and control everything.
• 8:54
  They'll power struggle.
• 8:56
  Oh, that just.
• 8:58
  You know, they know how to power struggle, they know how to push buttons,
• 9:03
  they know how to make you angry, and, because that's what they've learned,
• 9:08
  they've learned through whether it's a volatile, violent environment, that they
• 9:13
  are now, that's, that works for them.
• 9:16
  They don't know what calm and nurture and loving is, they just know the chaos.
• 9:23
  Rupert Isaacson: And what, why did they find that that works for them?
• 9:26
  What, what, when they, when they start mirroring those
• 9:29
  behaviors, what do they get?
• 9:31
  Ellie Williams: They get attention.
• 9:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 9:32
  They get
• 9:33
  Ellie Williams: attention that they never had.
• 9:35
  And they go, Oh, that's kind of nice.
• 9:36
  I like that attention, even though it's, you need to sit down or you're
• 9:40
  going to the principal's office.
• 9:42
  It fills a void that they had, they never experienced.
• 9:47
  And then our job is to then help them learn how to fill that void
• 9:51
  differently, which is really difficult.
• 9:54
  Rupert Isaacson: And does it become, would you say, dopamine
• 9:56
  related, so then it becomes like a seek and find behavior, right?
• 10:02
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, interesting.
• 10:06
  So if somebody has an attachment disorder what are the steps to ameliorate?
• 10:14
  Ellie Williams: It's a long journey.
• 10:16
  It's a really long journey and I, I really enjoy working with
• 10:20
  kiddos as young as possible.
• 10:22
  You know, if I have teenagers that have had such a dysregulated life throughout
• 10:28
  their, you know, you know, until they're teenagers, it's the ingrained
• 10:33
  behavior is it's so it's solidified.
• 10:37
  It's really hard for them to sort of go back and relearn some healthier behaviors.
• 10:42
  But it really, I love working with kids when they're 4, 3, 4, 5 years
• 10:46
  old, because it's about helping them understand what they do now, and
• 10:52
  relating it back to their developmental trauma, and being able to then help
• 10:57
  them, and like, educate them through psychoeducation of what they need to do.
• 11:02
  Wow, I see that you do this.
• 11:04
  I've noticed that this happens when, when somebody da, da, da, da.
• 11:09
  Oh, I wonder if that's when, kind of like when you were little and,
• 11:12
  and mummy and daddy ignored you, you know, and, and how that can connect.
• 11:16
  Yeah.
• 11:17
  And it's, Then, being able to help them restructure themselves and
• 11:24
  where we, through the DDP did on into psychotherapy, we have a model
• 11:31
  called PACE, which is being playful, accepting, furious, and empathic.
• 11:37
  And if you are peaceful, and whether it's as a clinician, myself, a parent,
• 11:42
  a caregiver, a school personnel, if you can implement those four things into a
• 11:49
  child's life or a client's life, it helps them understand, because sometimes, so
• 11:54
  if, if if one individual, say I have a client that's really angry, if I'm being
• 12:01
  silly and playful, sometimes they're then not angry, sometimes doing a silly walk.
• 12:08
  Because they don't wanna go back to the car and they power start struggling and
• 12:11
  they, they don't want the session to end.
• 12:14
  Doing a silly walk to go back to the car is just works it, it snaps them
• 12:19
  outta the of that power struggle.
• 12:23
  And I'm gonna be accepting of where they are all the time.
• 12:26
  I'm gonna accept that they're in this need for, I don't want to leave.
• 12:30
  I feel safe.
• 12:31
  I'm having a good time.
• 12:33
  And then I'm gonna be curious 'cause I wanna know more about that.
• 12:36
  But I'm going to have empathy because they're in that place.
• 12:39
  Does that make sense?
• 12:40
  Rupert Isaacson: It does.
• 12:40
  Do you ever find this can happen I'm a great believer in humor.
• 12:46
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 12:46
  Rupert Isaacson: And I also know that humor can sometimes with someone
• 12:49
  who's power struggly, be taken as a way to have yet more power struggle.
• 12:56
  When you're humorous and playful and then a kid or a client takes that and reacts
• 13:03
  even more negatively, what do you do?
• 13:07
  Ellie Williams: I just, you just think on your feet, you know, you're
• 13:09
  like, well, okay, that, that didn't work that, that sort of amplified.
• 13:13
  I might step away.
• 13:14
  I might create some space.
• 13:15
  The great thing about working with the animals, they sort
• 13:18
  of meet them where they are.
• 13:19
  So if I have a kid that's power struggling and.
• 13:23
  They're trying to get the horse from back into the stables and the horse is wanting
• 13:27
  to eat the grass and now the horse is the power struggle because they're trying to
• 13:30
  get the horse So then I might be like, man, have they been talking to you?
• 13:36
  That was the kind of like what we were doing just a minute ago.
• 13:38
  We were power struggling and now look, you're power struggling with that one.
• 13:42
  So it just kind of lightening it up.
• 13:45
  And if you're smiling and you're happy, you can't be angry.
• 13:49
  So, you know, being able to shift the focus is so important.
• 13:55
  So, so important.
• 13:57
  Rupert Isaacson: When you've got these kids that are coming to you
• 13:59
  so young, who's bringing them?
• 14:04
  Ellie Williams: Most of the time, foster parents, parents, caregivers,
• 14:08
  Sometimes I'll have drivers.
• 14:10
  Sometimes I don't have the parental caregiver.
• 14:15
  I really do.
• 14:17
  I mean, I asked for it, you know, if I can have it across because
• 14:20
  that way I can check in with them at the beginning of session.
• 14:23
  They can be in session.
• 14:25
  I know that's something that you always talked about having them
• 14:28
  in session as much as possible.
• 14:30
  And if not, just being able to have that contact, what's going
• 14:34
  well, where are the struggles.
• 14:37
  That sort of thing.
• 14:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's okay.
• 14:41
  So foster, the foster system.
• 14:43
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 14:43
  Rupert Isaacson: We know that equine assisted therapies are not cheap.
• 14:49
  Anything with a horse is not cheap.
• 14:51
  How are they affording to come to you?
• 14:55
  Ellie Williams: So I do, I have contracts with our local agencies, our government
• 14:59
  agencies, which took a long time to Not only get the contract, it took us
• 15:05
  a few years to get the contract, but it took us probably another eight years to
• 15:09
  get paid to the point where we needed to get paid, if you see what I mean.
• 15:14
  Yeah.
• 15:14
  But also then having to do a lot of fundraising and grant writing and
• 15:18
  requests of, you know, connecting with people in our community that would
• 15:22
  support us to cover the difference.
• 15:26
  The other aspect, we do private pay, we have a sliding scale.
• 15:30
  We don't like to turn anyone away if we don't have to.
• 15:32
  So we try really hard to get them the funding they need.
• 15:36
  Rupert Isaacson: And so you, you bootstrapped it originally.
• 15:38
  You, you looked around for support in your community.
• 15:43
  You created a non profit.
• 15:44
  You went about it that way.
• 15:46
  When you, when you made the shift to becoming a non profit,
• 15:50
  a funded provider from the state.
• 15:54
  Can you, there's a lot of people who will be listening to this, will be thinking,
• 15:57
  you know, I'm at the start of my career.
• 15:59
  I, I don't quite know how one goes about that stuff.
• 16:02
  In a nutshell, what's the red tape process for that?
• 16:06
  Ellie Williams: I think it's, it's networking, finding, finding people within
• 16:10
  your community, different organizations, whether it's rotary, whether it's.
• 16:15
  You know, young, young entrepreneur group, you know, talk to
• 16:20
  as many people as possible.
• 16:22
  And I, I say so often, I don't know everything.
• 16:26
  And if I don't know something that I need to know, I'm going to find somebody
• 16:29
  that does, you know, and it's, it's so important that face to face and the
• 16:35
  handshake and the conversation again.
• 16:37
  And being to go, you know, that was, I was lucky because I
• 16:40
  actually worked in that system.
• 16:43
  So I had a lot of contacts already.
• 16:45
  Rupert Isaacson: You were already a therapist.
• 16:47
  Ellie Williams: So I wasn't a therapist at that point.
• 16:49
  I worked in the child welfare system as a, as a worker.
• 16:52
  I was actually one of the managers in our local office.
• 16:55
  So I knew people that I needed to talk to.
• 16:59
  I already had that step ahead.
• 17:01
  But if you're going out there and you're going, Oh, I want to work within
• 17:05
  whether it's the mental health or it's drug and alcohol or it's child
• 17:08
  welfare, go bang on the doors, go set an appointment, give them a call,
• 17:14
  walk on in, because it's important.
• 17:16
  Like I'm, this is what I'd like to provide.
• 17:19
  How can I go about getting, you know, getting on your.
• 17:22
  On your docket, so to speak, absolutely.
• 17:25
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's funny.
• 17:25
  I'm a great believer that people say no three times usually.
• 17:29
  And then the fourth time they tend to say yes, just to shut
• 17:31
  you up and make you go away.
• 17:33
  And I'm always surprised that people fall at those fences.
• 17:36
  It's like, dude, they're going to say no at first.
• 17:39
  That's their job in a way.
• 17:41
  To see if you're serious about it.
• 17:43
  And did you find that, that you had to go back 2, 3, 4 times?
• 17:48
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, I think the biggest, the biggest thing is, is
• 17:51
  asking them what their needs are.
• 17:53
  You know, this is what I have.
• 17:55
  Does it fall within the need that you have?
• 17:57
  Our biggest thing is we were, We didn't have the outcomes that they needed, like,
• 18:03
  they're like, well, we like the sound of what you're doing, but does it work?
• 18:08
  Is it, you know, will it produce the outcomes that we want?
• 18:13
  So we worked for about two and a half years.
• 18:17
  To get those numbers and to get those statistics to go back in and say, we're
• 18:21
  maintaining over an 85 percent success rate of clients completing treatment.
• 18:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Now, how did you prove that when without
• 18:29
  like a peer reviewed study?
• 18:30
  Because people could say, well, that's just anecdotal.
• 18:32
  You know, why should we believe you?
• 18:34
  Ellie Williams: So basically, we just do, I mean, you're right.
• 18:37
  It's not like an in depth study but we use outcome measures that are valid through
• 18:42
  the, you know, we have different ones.
• 18:44
  We use the youth outcome questionnaire and we use the child questionnaire,
• 18:48
  Rupert Isaacson: youth
• 18:49
  Ellie Williams: outcome questionnaire.
• 18:50
  Rupert Isaacson: And it's something people should be aware of.
• 18:52
  Ellie Williams: Yep.
• 18:53
  And it's a pretest and a post test.
• 18:55
  So it basically gives you a snapshot of how the client feels they're doing
• 18:59
  before treatment and after treatment.
• 19:02
  And then we have a child and adolescent functional assessment scale, also
• 19:07
  known as a campus, and that's an outcome measure that I complete
• 19:11
  and I completed every 3 months.
• 19:13
  To be able to sort of see how the progress is, is coming along.
• 19:19
  Rupert Isaacson: And are these things that people can effectively
• 19:20
  download off the internet?
• 19:22
  Ellie Williams: The outcome questionnaire is, is something that
• 19:25
  it's a small fee for, to be able to use that outcome method the tool.
• 19:30
  With the CAPAS, it was a more in depth process.
• 19:33
  I had to study it pass a test, knowing that I know how to, to utilize the model.
• 19:39
  It's more in depth.
• 19:40
  They have a, an annual fee, which isn't, isn't huge.
• 19:44
  But it's a very good measure.
• 19:46
  Very good measure.
• 19:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Who controls that?
• 19:48
  What's the governing body for that?
• 19:50
  Ellie Williams: Well, off the top of my head, I can't remember, but
• 19:52
  there's, they have a few different outcome measures that they, this one
• 19:56
  governing body has, and I can't remember.
• 19:59
  I have like the JIF and the CAFAS and a couple of others as well.
• 20:03
  But
• 20:03
  Rupert Isaacson: these are, these are recognised by Local health authorities.
• 20:07
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Yeah.
• 20:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 20:09
  This is good to know because this is the sort of thing I didn't know
• 20:12
  when I was starting out, you know, I was just bloke in a field with my
• 20:14
  kid, you know, wondering what to do.
• 20:17
  And this, I still don't know, you know, so I'm always, I'm always intrigued to know
• 20:22
  what are the, If you like official steps that people can take and should take.
• 20:27
  Ellie Williams: Well, and it's nice.
• 20:29
  I'm sorry.
• 20:30
  Go ahead.
• 20:30
  Rupert Isaacson: No, you go ahead.
• 20:31
  Ellie Williams: It's nice because I'm working in the child welfare system.
• 20:35
  Often I will be subpoenaed for court.
• 20:37
  There's obviously.
• 20:39
  Different things that I have to be careful about, but we're
• 20:42
  working with lawyers and judges.
• 20:44
  You have to have that specific information and being able to have outcome measures.
• 20:50
  It can be very helpful, you know, when you're up there to support a
• 20:54
  client that you're in court for.
• 20:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you provide trainings, advice, mentorship for people
• 21:03
  that are wanting to start off in this?
• 21:04
  Because it's, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting.
• 21:07
  You're very clear about how to navigate this.
• 21:10
  And I'm very used to hearing people be actually much less clear and more wooly.
• 21:14
  So I think this is valuable information.
• 21:15
  Do you, do you do that sort of service for people that want to
• 21:17
  get going in this profession?
• 21:19
  Ellie Williams: I have.
• 21:19
  Yes.
• 21:20
  It's one of those things when I started, we again, went to all the
• 21:23
  people that you could learn from.
• 21:25
  I do charge a fee.
• 21:27
  But it's something that I'm always willing to, to help somebody get further in this
• 21:32
  field because we all need to be doing it.
• 21:35
  It's, it's amazing work.
• 21:37
  So.
• 21:38
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 21:38
  So people can contact you.
• 21:41
  Correct.
• 21:41
  Okay.
• 21:42
  So at the end listeners, we're going to obviously have contact for Ellie.
• 21:46
  So if you've got these questions and you want to engage her services to help her
• 21:49
  light the way through Fangorn Forest.
• 21:53
  and Mirkwood and the Mists and the Mines of Moria she will
• 21:58
  help you with the Balrogs.
• 22:01
  Alright, I've got some questions about some of the methodologies you use
• 22:04
  because they're quite intriguing to me.
• 22:07
  You use the Igala model and that one I'm familiar with and Lynn has been on this
• 22:12
  podcast and we're all great fans of Lynn.
• 22:14
  Both of the Igala and the Horses for Mental Health stuff
• 22:18
  she's doing now and so on.
• 22:20
  I'd like to ask you pick your brain a little bit about a couple of the other.
• 22:25
  Yeah.
• 22:25
  things and I'm going to look at your website as I'm doing so I get the
• 22:28
  names right because these things one can often get the names wrong.
• 22:32
  So
• 22:34
  our transformative DDP services is
• 22:40
  something that you orient people towards.
• 22:42
  What is a DDP?
• 22:44
  So
• 22:45
  Ellie Williams: that's what I was talking about a little bit earlier with
• 22:47
  the dyadic developmental psychotherapy
• 22:50
  Rupert Isaacson: dyadic.
• 22:51
  Yeah, that's a word you don't hear every day when I go to fill my car up
• 22:55
  with gas the bloke doesn't say would you like some dyadic or would you like
• 22:58
  some diesel or, you know, when I'm trying to, you know, walking my dog
• 23:02
  I'm saying how's your dyadic today.
• 23:05
  So what's dyadic me.
• 23:08
  Ellie Williams: But it's more about the dyad, isn't it?
• 23:10
  The, the parent child, the connection with another.
• 23:14
  So, I mean, in theory it could be a dyad,
• 23:17
  Rupert Isaacson: meaning a two way relationship.
• 23:19
  Ellie Williams: Yes.
• 23:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 23:22
  Ellie Williams: We prefer in the work that we do to have a parent
• 23:25
  child or, you know, have that dyad.
• 23:29
  If necessary, we need to have, I'm, I can be the other parts of that diet.
• 23:34
  I didn't see what I mean, like, cause it would be me and a client.
• 23:37
  or preferably the client and a caregiver.
• 23:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And you are facilitating between the dyad.
• 23:48
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 23:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Your piggy in the middle.
• 23:49
  How does it work to talk us through it?
• 23:51
  Ellie Williams: So it just I think the biggest thing is, is when
• 23:53
  we first start with a client, I guess I'll start at the beginning.
• 23:57
  I really need to know more about the caregiver, whether it's a foster parent,
• 24:02
  whether it's a biological parent, adopted parent, whoever that might be.
• 24:07
  I need to know, and they talk in DDP, they talk about.
• 24:12
  Meeting with them separately first and getting to know them and learning
• 24:17
  about their own attachment history and really learning and helping
• 24:22
  them because if you're asking them to do something very different.
• 24:25
  from their original parenting style, it's going to be a little bit tricky.
• 24:29
  So it's basically building that relationship between you and the
• 24:33
  caregiver first, and then bringing the child in to work with, within that
• 24:41
  dyad, like you were talking about.
• 24:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so what would be the standard tools that you'd use?
• 24:48
  And how's the horse come in?
• 24:51
  Ellie Williams: Well, the great thing is, is that so as of right now, we have three
• 24:54
  miniature horses, two horses, and a pony.
• 24:57
  And we'll, I'll just give an example.
• 25:01
  I think it's great when you can give an example rather than
• 25:04
  just talking in generalities.
• 25:06
  I have a family.
• 25:07
  I work with a young boy and have multiple siblings.
• 25:13
  So we have three miniature horses that are now been named.
• 25:18
  The siblings and they sort of through discussion like, well, which one's
• 25:22
  this one, you know, and, well, that one's the one that stares off into
• 25:26
  the corner and kind of withdraw.
• 25:28
  So that's that that kid.
• 25:29
  That's kid a.
• 25:30
  And the one that's up in everyone's business and trying to eat your clothes.
• 25:34
  Well, that's.
• 25:35
  Child B, and oh, and the cat, that's child C, because he is in everybody's
• 25:41
  business, and he's also typically a little, you know, so we're using through
• 25:45
  metaphor, and being able to connect with the animals through that way and
• 25:50
  then we will, very much like the Agala model, we will throw out, whether
• 25:55
  it's, you know, creating something, or observing relationships or interactions.
• 26:02
  And then through discussion and processing, being able to take those
• 26:08
  experiences from the client, observing the horses and the interactions, and
• 26:13
  then connecting it to their own life.
• 26:16
  Rupert Isaacson: So what happens when you get a kid or a
• 26:19
  client saying don't be stupid.
• 26:21
  That's not my dad.
• 26:22
  That's a cat You know, why should you know, that's just a cat.
• 26:25
  You know, this is stupid.
• 26:26
  Well, yeah How do you how do you navigate that?
• 26:31
  Ellie Williams: I almost went like so I was almost like oh and then I
• 26:35
  was like Well, I'm not in session.
• 26:36
  So I'll stop um So, it is, it is hard, it is hard to sometimes see that
• 26:42
  cat, you know, it is a cat, and it's hard to see, like, you know, because
• 26:46
  they are very literal, aren't they?
• 26:48
  Yeah.
• 26:48
  And it is, and so I'll have empathy for them, but they're like screw
• 26:51
  this, I don't, I don't, I won't do that, that's not Right, and there can
• 26:54
  Rupert Isaacson: be a need to challenge, right?
• 26:55
  They need you to show that you care enough to explain why the cat.
• 27:00
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 27:01
  And if that's going to be a cat, that's fine, that's a cat.
• 27:04
  And then it, then it, the conversation might then be connected with,
• 27:08
  it's hard to feel connected.
• 27:10
  So if you keep it as a cat, it's not as real and it's not as it's connected as a,
• 27:16
  as, as the person, if you see what I mean, that there's, you know, has been labeled.
• 27:21
  Yeah.
• 27:22
  It keeps it separate.
• 27:24
  So, does that make sense?
• 27:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that sometimes you have to
• 27:28
  actually explain metaphor?
• 27:32
  Ellie Williams: Um, for the little ones, I do.
• 27:36
  At the beginning, when we first start with the equine therapy, I'll explain
• 27:41
  the metaphor a little bit more, just because they don't understand
• 27:46
  metaphors, really, until a certain age.
• 27:48
  Yeah, I mean,
• 27:49
  Rupert Isaacson: it's fairly complex.
• 27:50
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:51
  So, we'll simplify it.
• 27:54
  Thanks.
• 27:55
  And you know, say, say the, the client's working with the miniature
• 27:58
  horse, and mom says, oh, well this is like Sally Sal, Sally and, and you.
• 28:04
  And so now we're gonna call that horse Sally for the rest of the, you
• 28:07
  know, when we're with that client.
• 28:09
  Unless the client says, no, not Sally, I don't want s you know, I
• 28:12
  don't want it to be called Sally.
• 28:14
  And then being able to put words to that.
• 28:16
  Wow, what is it about this one that's like Sally, you know, so,
• 28:22
  even if they're a little resistant, you can still keep working with it.
• 28:26
  Rupert Isaacson: But I presume you need people to at least have a certain degree
• 28:29
  of theory, what psychologists would call theory of mind and false belief.
• 28:32
  Absolutely.
• 28:33
  Understanding that other people see things differently.
• 28:35
  I remember spate taking.
• 28:38
  Oh, gosh, you know, two to four years slowly to educate Rowan,
• 28:44
  my son in metaphor, but of course he was classically autistic.
• 28:48
  Now, of course, he, you know, it's like he could script Monty Python.
• 28:51
  So I created a complete monster, which is great.
• 28:55
  But it, you know, the reason I ask, you know, one does sometimes find that.
• 29:02
  Metaphor doesn't come necessarily naturally to everybody, right?
• 29:09
  Ellie Williams: And I'm just
• 29:09
  Rupert Isaacson: intrigued at what, what are your tools for
• 29:12
  helping people to understand it?
• 29:13
  Do you have a kind of standard toolbox that you would use?
• 29:16
  Ellie Williams: I think everyone's different.
• 29:18
  It's kind of like, you know, when you have like horses, everyone's a bit different.
• 29:23
  I think for me, it's you have to get a feel for the client and you have to get
• 29:27
  a feel for their level of understanding and I adjust in the moment as necessary.
• 29:33
  If I need to explain it a bit deeper or make that connection and that's a
• 29:37
  little bit different than the Agala model because it's in the Agala model.
• 29:41
  It is about the metaphor and the client to maintain that metaphor.
• 29:45
  But like you're saying, sometimes, whether it's autism or attachment.
• 29:50
  They don't understand it.
• 29:51
  They don't get it.
• 29:52
  So being able to put words to that and explain it a bit more is necessary.
• 29:59
  Rupert Isaacson: What's your advice for someone who's starting out with
• 30:02
  this dialect model, who maybe would, I know I'm thrashing this horse a
• 30:06
  little bit, but what, if, if they, they run across a client who doesn't
• 30:11
  necessarily get the metaphor so easily,
• 30:16
  Ellie Williams: what
• 30:16
  Rupert Isaacson: would be your advice to somebody To help the client to
• 30:23
  understand you're very experienced.
• 30:26
  I'm sure a lot of things come.
• 30:27
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Automatically to you, but imagine they didn't.
• 30:32
  Ellie Williams: I think for me, it's meeting them where they are.
• 30:35
  And sometimes it's just, is it about me wanting them to understand it?
• 30:40
  Okay.
• 30:41
  You know, is it, is it because.
• 30:44
  Is it okay for them to just if they if they've got all this
• 30:47
  pent up energy and they need to run around the arena, 10 times.
• 30:51
  Let's have running races, you know let's let's change the focus and go somewhere,
• 30:57
  maybe we have to go somewhere different.
• 30:58
  Maybe we have to get creative, you know, I think that's.
• 31:03
  I have to reflect a little internally there.
• 31:06
  If it's, if it's me that needs them to know, is it working?
• 31:11
  Is it just naturally happening?
• 31:13
  If not, then there is more education of like, hey, buddy, this is really,
• 31:16
  this is a struggle for you, isn't it?
• 31:18
  Gosh, it must be, you know, mommy wasn't there for you when you were little.
• 31:23
  That must have been really difficult, you know, and now this, this
• 31:27
  horse here is over in the corner.
• 31:29
  And I wonder if there's a different way that we can, we can
• 31:32
  see if we can get him over here.
• 31:33
  You know, like, so now I'm like encouraging and educating and connecting
• 31:40
  and helping him in a different way.
• 31:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 31:42
  Right.
• 31:42
  I love your points about if they need to run around, then.
• 31:46
  Let them run around.
• 31:47
  I mean, that, that, as you know, with horse boy, that's the
• 31:48
  standard thing is follow the child.
• 31:50
  So without that, one can't build the trust.
• 31:53
  And if you can't build the trust, then there's no relationship.
• 31:55
  And if there's no relationship, there's no communication and we can't begin.
• 31:59
  But sometimes, you know, one can have trouble, perhaps.
• 32:02
  Explaining that to, to a parent or caregiver.
• 32:04
  He's like, no, we came here to do the thing, one thing.
• 32:07
  And like, well, because the person's not yet ready for the
• 32:10
  thing, ready them for the thing.
• 32:12
  Ellie Williams: And
• 32:13
  Rupert Isaacson: I
• 32:15
  Ellie Williams: try and get that across to them when I meet with them first.
• 32:19
  That things are a little different around here sometimes and
• 32:22
  sometimes I look a little nuts, but you know, we'll get there.
• 32:26
  It just looks a little different
• 32:29
  Rupert Isaacson: just, you know, I want to go to a couple of the other modalities
• 32:32
  that you use, but with the DDP, what drew you to that particular model?
• 32:36
  So, so strongly,
• 32:39
  Ellie Williams: I think when, when the, when the attachment specialists moved
• 32:43
  out the area and I was like, well, crap now I've got to figure this one out.
• 32:47
  I did, I did a lot of research, and Dr.
• 32:50
  Hughes work is just so, it's profound, and it's so different,
• 32:57
  you know, it's being Who is
• 32:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
• 32:58
  Hughes?
• 32:59
  Tell us about Dr.
• 32:59
  Hughes.
• 33:00
  Ellie Williams: Dan Hughes, he calls me the horse lady.
• 33:04
  He's he's an amazing psychologist that just, he's written many, many books and he
• 33:11
  Rupert Isaacson: What's his first name again?
• 33:11
  We didn't quite get it.
• 33:12
  Ellie Williams: Dan.
• 33:13
  Dan.
• 33:13
  Dan
• 33:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Hughes.
• 33:14
  All right.
• 33:14
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 33:15
  And he is He's just brilliant.
• 33:19
  He's like, you know, just sees the world a different way and wants everybody to
• 33:25
  know, like, to share what that way is.
• 33:29
  Kind of like when, with you and with Lynn and it just learning.
• 33:36
  I don't know.
• 33:37
  The thing I like about it, I mean, in traditional therapy, you're, you're
• 33:41
  taught to be the neutral party and you have to have no feeling and you
• 33:46
  have to be like this sort of stoic.
• 33:50
  blank thing.
• 33:52
  And with, with DDP, Dr.
• 33:55
  Hughes is, is about, you know, sometimes it is about helping this
• 34:00
  kid know that this is a sad moment and boy, oh, I'm getting a bit teary
• 34:05
  and I've got a tear in my eye and my heart's beating a bit faster.
• 34:08
  This is really sad, you know, because they don't know, they don't know what sad is,
• 34:12
  you know, and it's, it's, It's beautiful.
• 34:15
  It's a beautiful model, and he, he just wants to share it with everyone,
• 34:20
  and he's done an amazing job.
• 34:22
  Yes, is it complicated?
• 34:25
  Did my brain explode in the training process?
• 34:28
  Probably about ten times.
• 34:30
  Rupert Isaacson: What was the thing that blew your brain the most?
• 34:32
  Ellie Williams: It just works.
• 34:33
  I think, I think the kind of like with, with the horse boy, there's
• 34:38
  a scientific aspect behind it.
• 34:40
  There's a neurobiology behind the DDP.
• 34:43
  You've got Yeah, it's
• 34:46
  Rupert Isaacson: what is that?
• 34:47
  What is talk us through the science?
• 34:49
  I'm intrigued.
• 34:50
  Ellie Williams: Well, I think I think it's well, I think that's where I'm
• 34:52
  still I'm still learning in the fact of just how it regulates your system.
• 34:58
  How can you and that's why I use the neurofeedback which I'm sure
• 35:01
  we'll talk about at some point.
• 35:02
  Because.
• 35:04
  Clients that have attachment issues are dysregulated, and they don't know
• 35:07
  how to regulate, and then, so then, obviously your central nervous system
• 35:12
  is not in balance, so then you're, so there's a scientific aspect to
• 35:16
  it, and it makes sense, and when it works, and when you, when you avoid,
• 35:21
  The power struggle and you learn how to have, you know, a client accepts
• 35:26
  you and trust you to try new things.
• 35:29
  It's, it's just beautiful.
• 35:31
  So
• 35:32
  Rupert Isaacson: for those people that are followers of, I mean, we're
• 35:35
  all followers of some degree, you know, polyvagal theory to some, you
• 35:39
  know, is it something similar to that?
• 35:41
  Is it regulation of?
• 35:44
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 35:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Autonomic nervous system getting you from your dorsal
• 35:48
  freak out to your ventral vagal
• 35:50
  Ellie Williams: ha.
• 35:51
  You know,
• 35:51
  Rupert Isaacson: is it trust and rest and digest?
• 35:53
  Is it along those lines?
• 35:56
  Ellie Williams: Yes.
• 35:58
  Yeah.
• 35:59
  There's a lot of discussion about polyvagal theory and.
• 36:02
  John Balin is a wonderful neurobiologist who's also involved in all of that
• 36:08
  and you know, yeah, it's just, I mean, it could be, talk about it for weeks.
• 36:12
  John
• 36:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Balin, you said?
• 36:14
  John
• 36:14
  Ellie Williams: Balin, J O N.
• 36:16
  Rupert Isaacson: And is he, he and Dan Hughes, they work together?
• 36:20
  And where are they based from?
• 36:22
  And how do we find out more?
• 36:23
  Ellie Williams: Both are in the Northeast.
• 36:25
  I think John's in Delaware, and I Dan's now up in Maine.
• 36:28
  He was in Pennsylvania, but he retired.
• 36:30
  Well, he's not really retired, but moved up to Maine.
• 36:32
  And they are a dream team when they work together.
• 36:36
  Actually, we have a conference in September for DDP.
• 36:42
  They're having a conference in the UK.
• 36:45
  And all about working with and seeing life through an intersectional lens.
• 36:51
  What does that mean?
• 36:52
  Just, like, just how everything comes together, whether it's
• 37:01
  draw the blank of just if you think of an intersection, whether it's
• 37:06
  diversity or racial or cultural or or everything, absolutely everything that
• 37:12
  Rupert Isaacson: add to a particular situation.
• 37:14
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 37:15
  And just seeing, seeing life through that lens.
• 37:21
  And going to a deeper level.
• 37:24
  And this is sort of the focus of the, of the of the conference that
• 37:27
  we're having in, in September.
• 37:29
  And we're going to have some amazing, John and Dan will be one of the presenters.
• 37:34
  And we've got presenters from all over the world to really focus on this.
• 37:37
  And that's in September
• 37:39
  Rupert Isaacson: in the UK?
• 37:39
  Yeah.
• 37:40
  Okay, cool.
• 37:41
  In Nottingham.
• 37:43
  In
• 37:43
  Ellie Williams: Nottingham.
• 37:44
  Rupert Isaacson: One of my favorite places.
• 37:45
  You're going to be there?
• 37:46
  Ellie Williams: Yes.
• 37:46
  Okay.
• 37:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 37:48
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, we are.
• 37:49
  It's good.
• 37:51
  It's going to be a good one.
• 37:52
  Rupert Isaacson: When in September is it?
• 37:54
  Ellie Williams: I think it's the 21st and 22nd thing.
• 37:59
  Rupert Isaacson: I might be in the UK then.
• 38:01
  Ellie Williams: Fantastic.
• 38:03
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 38:03
  So DDP a good thing.
• 38:05
  People should look into it.
• 38:06
  I'm going to look into it.
• 38:08
  Okay.
• 38:08
  Talk to us about You've got, you know, equine assisted psychotherapy.
• 38:16
  So this is something which I think a lot of people are curious about.
• 38:25
  I'll try to talk about cause it sounds complicated.
• 38:28
  How does it dip?
• 38:29
  What is it?
• 38:29
  And how does it differ from DDP?
• 38:31
  When would you use one?
• 38:32
  And when would you use the other?
• 38:34
  Can you talk us through that a little bit, please?
• 38:36
  Ellie Williams: So I do, I do a lot of DDP in the office.
• 38:40
  And then I do a wonderful hybrid.
• 38:43
  I think I think where I, where I struggle, where things are
• 38:47
  different is in the Agala model.
• 38:50
  It's very self directed and it's about following the client's path
• 38:55
  and Sort of guiding and, and not, not directing, yeah, non directive.
• 39:06
  And with DDP, a lot of the clientele that we have, it's very, they don't
• 39:12
  understand human relationships in general, and they struggle with
• 39:16
  relationships, and they struggle, so being more directive is necessary.
• 39:21
  It's kind of like we were talking about the metaphor earlier.
• 39:24
  It's more difficult.
• 39:26
  They don't get it.
• 39:27
  So it's needed to maybe go into more detail.
• 39:31
  So this is where I've sort of provided this hybrid of utilizing my DDP skills
• 39:36
  and techniques within the equine therapy world, whether it's with a horse, whether
• 39:41
  it's with the dogs and cats, you know, whatever I might be using on the farm.
• 39:46
  If that makes sense.
• 39:47
  It does, it does.
• 39:49
  Rupert Isaacson: And now you've got, before we were pressing record you talked
• 39:56
  me through a situation that's a bit specific to Pennsylvania where the state
• 40:05
  has taken legal action over opioid use.
• 40:12
  If you're listening to this from, say, the UK or other parts of Europe you
• 40:18
  might not know or be aware of quite how drastically negatively the opioid, the
• 40:27
  use of opioids of various kinds, has impacted American life over the last.
• 40:33
  20, 25 years or so.
• 40:35
  Those of us who grew up, you know, in the 80s, we were all familiar with
• 40:38
  crack and, you know, crystal meth and things that, you know, like that,
• 40:43
  which impacted families terribly.
• 40:45
  But the opioid epidemic, because these drugs are the cure.
• 40:49
  Yeah.
• 40:50
  Quote unquote legal sort of legal forms of heroin effectively, which
• 40:53
  by the way started as a legal drug.
• 40:55
  That's why it was called heroin.
• 40:56
  It was actually created by Bayer in in Germany as supposedly a, a
• 41:00
  non addictive form of laudanum and that didn't work out very well.
• 41:05
  And they called it heroin because it was supposed to save the day.
• 41:07
  But they're, they're effectively forms of that.
• 41:09
  And, you know, when I was living in Texas for so long, I was observing
• 41:14
  Neighbors, kids of neighbors, people around me just falling like flies.
• 41:21
  And the latest one is fentanyl.
• 41:23
  And there are even people sort of within Horseboy who've lost relatives
• 41:28
  and that sort of thing in the last year or two to fentanyl, because
• 41:31
  fentanyl is so incredibly unregulated that you don't even know what's
• 41:36
  in the pill that you're taking.
• 41:38
  So people have been.
• 41:39
  A lot of people die.
• 41:40
  The pharmaceutical companies, Big Pharma have unusually actually
• 41:45
  been taken to task over this event.
• 41:47
  Can you talk us through what's happened in Pennsylvania and how that's
• 41:52
  affected the services that you provide?
• 41:56
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, it's really exciting in the fact that such horrible things
• 42:00
  have happened from the opioid epidemic.
• 42:04
  And The it's my understanding now, if I'm incorrect, if I speak
• 42:09
  incorrectly, it's not, it's not out of it's out of ignorance.
• 42:12
  But my understanding is, is that.
• 42:14
  The states are able to, you know, have have sued big pharma.
• 42:20
  From my understanding, and then been able to have some settlement funding.
• 42:25
  Come in to help them support the communities.
• 42:29
  Work through the things that have happened because of the opioid epidemic.
• 42:34
  And in our area it's, and I had to write it down because otherwise
• 42:38
  I don't want to mess it up.
• 42:39
  It's called the York Opioid Collaborative and everybody from
• 42:44
  outpatient clinicians, like myself to the the corner to different.
• 42:52
  Organizations in the area that deal with.
• 42:57
  Individual situations that are related to substance use
• 43:01
  specifically the opioid epidemic.
• 43:03
  We are all getting together and we are going to work as a team
• 43:07
  and we're going to try and.
• 43:10
  right the wrong, so to speak.
• 43:11
  And we're working on, you know, education, we're working on grief support.
• 43:17
  We're working on so many different things to help our community sort of
• 43:22
  rebuild from this, this, these horrendous things that have happened because of
• 43:27
  Rupert Isaacson: opioids.
• 43:27
  What are the horrendous things that have happened?
• 43:29
  What have you observed in your rural community with this?
• 43:32
  Ellie Williams: I can't tell you how much like how many kids that
• 43:35
  I have that have been affected.
• 43:37
  By whether it's the, the death of a parent, the overdose of a parent
• 43:41
  drug addiction themselves it's a, it, yeah, it's so, it's just
• 43:45
  rampant, and it's just heartbreaking.
• 43:52
  Rupert Isaacson: How many of the kids that you're seeing that have ended up in
• 43:54
  the foster system, is it related to this?
• 44:00
  Ellie Williams: I would say more often than not, unfortunately,
• 44:03
  Rupert Isaacson: like 50%.
• 44:05
  Ellie Williams: Oh, yeah.
• 44:06
  Yeah.
• 44:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Above 70.
• 44:09
  Ellie Williams: I would probably say between 60 and 70 percent of our
• 44:12
  clients have a substance use disorder.
• 44:16
  Issue, connection, passing, death, you know, that sort of thing related
• 44:21
  to substance use, drugs and alcohol.
• 44:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Before I get into how you help them I'm just
• 44:28
  curious, you know, you're a long time resident in the U S you're as
• 44:31
  American as you're British, really.
• 44:33
  What do you attribute it to?
• 44:35
  Because when I was first moving to the USA drugs were really an urban problem.
• 44:44
  Right.
• 44:45
  And somewhere it shifted to becoming a rural problem.
• 44:49
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 44:50
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, drugs was something which you did when I was young
• 44:54
  to try and be cool and identify with the counterculture and so on and so on.
• 45:00
  And then somewhere it moved into the mainstream.
• 45:05
  Yeah.
• 45:06
  Did this, did this, yeah, town to country shift.
• 45:09
  Why?
• 45:09
  What happened?
• 45:10
  What do you think caused that?
• 45:12
  Yeah.
• 45:14
  Ellie Williams: I think, well, interestingly enough, because I know
• 45:18
  when we moved here in the late eight mid to late eighties, I remember my
• 45:23
  mom saying, Oh, we're in a good area.
• 45:26
  There's no drugs.
• 45:27
  You know, it's all good.
• 45:28
  And my brother said, I can get whatever you want tomorrow.
• 45:32
  So it was always there.
• 45:34
  I think, personally, I think, with transportation, I mean, everyone's mobile.
• 45:39
  Now, it's everywhere.
• 45:41
  In our area, we're sort of, you know, we've got New York,
• 45:46
  Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.
• 45:48
  C.
• 45:49
  We're sort of like in the 95, I 95 corridor.
• 45:52
  It's really from our area in South Central Pennsylvania.
• 45:57
  It's rampant because it can come in in the ports.
• 45:59
  It can come in.
• 46:01
  You know, so many different ways and everyone's getting creative with it.
• 46:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Right, but what, what's driving the demand
• 46:09
  and what I mean by that is
• 46:14
  When I was first, you know, I, I trained horses under the table illegally in
• 46:21
  Virginia when I first moved to the USA, so, you know, there's a lot of drinking,
• 46:25
  there's a certain amount of drug use, people use coke to keep, get themselves
• 46:28
  up in the morning, that sort of thing.
• 46:30
  And then, you know, that coke and that sort of thing were
• 46:33
  fairly rampant among the moneyed.
• 46:35
  Right owning youth and that sort of thing, but it was it was
• 46:40
  still in general things that people did to party really to sort of, I
• 46:47
  guess, to celebrate life in a way some people crashed on it, but others.
• 46:51
  You know, they did it for a while and then they moved on and there
• 46:55
  was sort of an expectation that that was what people would do.
• 46:58
  They'd go through their, you know, naughty phase and then, you
• 47:02
  know, this isn't a naughty phase.
• 47:05
  And what, what has changed in American culture?
• 47:08
  What's changed in rural culture?
• 47:10
  I think because because you say you're on the I 95 corridor, right, but we know
• 47:15
  that you could go to the most remote part of Montana and it would be there.
• 47:20
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 47:20
  Rupert Isaacson: And even where quality of life is high, you know, even where
• 47:26
  rural culture is strong and maybe there is a lot of cowboy culture and
• 47:31
  rodeo and there's stuff going on.
• 47:32
  And it's not like they're totally bored.
• 47:34
  I mean, there's stuff happening.
• 47:35
  What what's changed?
• 47:38
  That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of something changed in the side.
• 47:42
  Ellie Williams: I think, I think as a, as a, as a culture, I think we were
• 47:46
  coming to the whole, like, instant gratification, no pain, you don't
• 47:50
  have to deal with it, you know, it's kind of like, it's like the opioids.
• 47:54
  Well, you have surgery will give an opioids because then it won't hurt.
• 47:58
  Right.
• 47:59
  And I think from a mental health perspective.
• 48:02
  I think people obviously are now learning that the mental health part of life is
• 48:07
  very important and it's been sort of poo pooed, you can't see it, it's not
• 48:11
  like a broken arm, you can't see it so people don't understand it as much
• 48:15
  and it's the same, and my, my opinion, whatever it, however it might come
• 48:22
  across, is that, you know, if you use, you don't have to feel, if you use, you
• 48:26
  don't have to cope and all those things that those struggles and, and use.
• 48:32
  Things that are difficult go away,
• 48:34
  Rupert Isaacson: right?
• 48:35
  And I guess I guess I'm sort of thinking as you're as you're talking I guess
• 48:39
  that in back, you know, 30 40 years ago These drugs were illegal difficult
• 48:44
  to get you had to it was quite risky to go and get them That was half
• 48:47
  the thrill was you know, we've got to go to this bad area dodgy bloke
• 48:51
  that you got to buy it from and blah But of course these drugs are legal.
• 48:56
  Ellie Williams: Yeah
• 48:57
  Rupert Isaacson: prescribed by doctors and given a great Quantity
• 49:01
  and then they sit around in people's houses and kids find them.
• 49:04
  Ellie Williams: Yeah,
• 49:05
  Rupert Isaacson: maybe that's the difference perhaps.
• 49:07
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 49:11
  Rupert Isaacson: What, what have you observed is the difference with
• 49:14
  Fentanyl as opposed to the other because Fentanyl seems to be the
• 49:20
  latest model that is the seems to be the Ferrari of death dealing legal.
• 49:27
  Right.
• 49:29
  Opioids.
• 49:29
  What's different about that one?
• 49:31
  Ellie Williams: I think it's the deadliest.
• 49:33
  I mean,
• 49:33
  Rupert Isaacson: why is it so deadly?
• 49:35
  Ellie Williams: It's so strong.
• 49:36
  It's, it's unregulated.
• 49:38
  You can't, I mean, it's,
• 49:44
  you never know what, you know, when it's, you know, you hear, I hear
• 49:47
  so often it was they, they OD'd because it was laced with fentanyl.
• 49:53
  because they can't regulate it.
• 49:56
  I mean, I'm not sure.
• 49:57
  I mean, it's an illegal drug, so it's not like it's going to be
• 49:59
  regulated, but you know, yeah.
• 50:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so somebody comes to you and their life has
• 50:09
  been negatively impacted by it.
• 50:10
  What, what percentage of people are you seeing that are addicts slash users?
• 50:14
  What percentage of people are you seeing that are people who've been affected
• 50:19
  by family members who are addicts slash
• 50:21
  Ellie Williams: users?
• 50:21
  That's as an outpatient clinician, it's.
• 50:25
  You know, typically, I think many outpatient standpoint, active
• 50:29
  using is, it's not exactly, you know, our top choice.
• 50:33
  I did, I did work with one client in particular who was
• 50:36
  struggling with recovery.
• 50:39
  That's, we sort of continue to go back and forth.
• 50:45
  Most of the time they're working on their recovery.
• 50:49
  They've gone through rehab
• 50:53
  and a lot of times I'm working with the kids.
• 50:56
  And the kids watching the family members go through rehab, being away,
• 51:02
  disconnecting, maybe then, you know,
• 51:07
  starting to use again, you know, that sort of thing.
• 51:11
  So that's where, that's where I, my, a lot of my work is with the, with the kiddos.
• 51:16
  Rupert Isaacson: And so when a kid is observing this obviously they're
• 51:18
  at risk of being drawn in, but
• 51:24
  there's also, you know, just a thousand other traumas that come.
• 51:29
  What's your standard?
• 51:31
  approach with a kid that is affected by this going on in the household?
• 51:36
  What do you
• 51:37
  Ellie Williams: I think, I think for me, from a therapeutic standpoint, it's,
• 51:40
  it's understanding what they're, what they're going through, what they're, how
• 51:45
  it's affecting them, how it, how I can help support them and process through
• 51:51
  these experiences, how to keep them safe.
• 51:55
  You know, those, those sort of things is very important.
• 51:59
  Rupert Isaacson: You have kids that say to you sometimes, well, you
• 52:01
  wouldn't understand Ellie, you come from a nice home, you, you grew up
• 52:04
  with horses, you're, you're posh, you're this, you're that, you know,
• 52:07
  how can you possibly empathize or put yourself in our shoes like this?
• 52:12
  Do you get that?
• 52:13
  Ellie Williams: Sometimes, yeah.
• 52:15
  And then sometimes it's, it's, it is, it's, you know, It does feel better
• 52:19
  when you feel like you're, you know, you talk to somebody that you can
• 52:21
  connect with and, you know, a lot of times that's when you're in the drug
• 52:26
  and alcohol field, you have people in recovery that are counselors.
• 52:30
  And, you know, sometimes that might be a conversation to be had.
• 52:34
  That would be really cool.
• 52:35
  Maybe we can connect.
• 52:36
  Maybe we can find somebody for you to connect with that has.
• 52:40
  Those, you know, experiences in a therapeutic setting, you
• 52:46
  know, let's talk about that.
• 52:47
  Let's unpack that a little bit, you know, cause it might just feel being,
• 52:51
  I need to feel like I can connect with somebody, but then is my education
• 52:56
  and understanding enough or are they just deflecting away and just
• 52:59
  saying, well, you're, you're crap.
• 53:01
  I don't want to talk to you cause I don't want to talk about it anyway.
• 53:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 53:03
  Right.
• 53:04
  And I would find whatever excuse to not talk.
• 53:06
  Ellie Williams: Right.
• 53:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 53:08
  How do the horses help with this?
• 53:10
  Ellie Williams: Oh, they're brilliant.
• 53:12
  They're just brilliant.
• 53:12
  They, they feed into the energy.
• 53:16
  I've had, I have these, these big blocks.
• 53:18
  I have these little blocks that have words written all over them.
• 53:21
  And I cannot tell you how often the kids will pull these blocks out and
• 53:25
  just throw them all out of the arena.
• 53:27
  And the horses will go over and pick them up.
• 53:30
  Nine times out of 10.
• 53:32
  I'm pretty sure horses can't read, but they'll pick up a block that will be
• 53:38
  like heartbroken or scared or, I mean, and all the blocks are not necessary,
• 53:45
  whatever they pick up, the client can relate whatever's happening with.
• 53:49
  And
• 53:50
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, do you have a block that says totally cool?
• 53:52
  No problem.
• 53:52
  Ellie Williams: I need to have one of those actually.
• 53:55
  Yeah.
• 53:55
  But we do, we have loved, we have all these different ones and it more times
• 54:00
  than not, the horses will They'll connect, whether it's, whether it's
• 54:04
  if they need the energy and the being beside them and interact with them in
• 54:10
  the moment, or if they need to like, they've turned their butts around
• 54:14
  facing away, those sorts of things.
• 54:17
  And as a clinician, then that's, that's what we talk about.
• 54:22
  Oh, that's really interesting.
• 54:23
  That one's over there looking that way.
• 54:25
  What's, what's going on with that?
• 54:29
  You know, that's my mom.
• 54:30
  She's always looking out.
• 54:31
  She's checking to see where, where the dealer is and when, when the
• 54:33
  next fix is coming and, you know, I'm just back in, don't give a
• 54:38
  shit, you know, that sort of thing.
• 54:40
  And yeah, it's just the horses feel it.
• 54:45
  They feel the energy.
• 54:49
  Rupert Isaacson: When you get these kids, how long are you
• 54:51
  typically working with them for?
• 54:53
  And do you get a chance to follow through with their progress afterwards?
• 54:57
  Or does it, is it a bit of a mystery where they go?
• 55:01
  Ellie Williams: It's.
• 55:03
  It's an interesting, that's an interesting question, actually, because
• 55:07
  the process with developmental trauma is sort of, it's not a quick one.
• 55:13
  And I have found in child welfare in our area more recently, they've been trying to
• 55:19
  sort of push things through a bit quicker.
• 55:21
  You know, whether it's terminating parental rights, placing for
• 55:24
  adoption, that sort of thing.
• 55:27
  But it's, it's interesting that
• 55:32
  If you don't have the child or the client regulated and secure, they're
• 55:37
  not going to, they're not able to then move forward in life in a healthy way.
• 55:41
  And then you have failed adoptions and you have ongoing mental health issues.
• 55:45
  And it's, I've seen more of it because they're pushing things along and I'm
• 55:51
  saying they're not ready, but then I'm getting trumped because For reasons of,
• 55:58
  you know, the child welfare system says, well, they, they need to be adopted now.
• 56:02
  And sometimes they need to be adopted.
• 56:04
  But my services need to continue.
• 56:07
  Right.
• 56:08
  But in our area and most areas that the cases close.
• 56:13
  The day of adoption, so then services don't continue
• 56:17
  unless they pay out of pocket.
• 56:19
  So we are creative.
• 56:22
  There are, there are times where I have the, the children and youth
• 56:26
  have agreed to pay for up to a year of continued services or ongoing.
• 56:31
  So we're getting there.
• 56:32
  We're getting there.
• 56:33
  But it's, you know, I do.
• 56:36
  I mean, I've had clients that have been with me for six months to a year.
• 56:40
  I've got clients that have been with me for nine years.
• 56:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 56:44
  Talk to us about a nine year client because that, that's, that's quite.
• 56:48
  An amazing thing to be able to go through that kind of trajectory
• 56:50
  of relationship with somebody.
• 56:52
  Can you, without naming names, can you talk us through a story?
• 56:56
  Ellie Williams: So, I've got a couple.
• 56:59
  I'll go.
• 57:00
  So, this one, this one's a cool one because this is a kiddo.
• 57:05
  You know, when you work with clients that have extreme trauma, extreme,
• 57:11
  extreme trauma, life was very unsafe.
• 57:15
  And I'm going to talk in very big generalities, because I know this is
• 57:18
  going nation worldwide, nationwide, and I don't want to even come close to
• 57:23
  potentially breaching confidentiality.
• 57:25
  So working with a client and a caregiver within the, and we, and
• 57:31
  she clients to this left the client that I've had for a long time.
• 57:37
  All the programs, so I've.
• 57:39
  They've had neurofeedback, they've had DDP, they've had client therapy,
• 57:43
  they've, you name it, that we've done it, they've done it, you know,
• 57:48
  and, and, and just learning that life isn't scary and life is not chaotic.
• 57:57
  And, you know, from, from a lot of times I have clients that There's a lot
• 58:02
  of pooping issues, urinating issues, whether it's in the rooms, whether it's
• 58:07
  in the house a lot of sabotage again, power struggles, need for control.
• 58:13
  They have nothing else that they can control.
• 58:15
  They will control.
• 58:16
  their bowel movements and extreme behavioral issues, extreme
• 58:20
  behavioral issues, runaway behaviors.
• 58:23
  I mean, going, you know, all of these things and just never giving up.
• 58:28
  And I think that's the biggest thing when you have a client for so long,
• 58:32
  you're building the relationship, right?
• 58:34
  This is a client that doesn't know how to build relationships.
• 58:37
  They weren't, didn't have that secure attachment.
• 58:41
  So, not giving up, you know, they run away, well we're gonna, let's,
• 58:45
  let's figure out how to keep you safe, what's going on, finding the
• 58:48
  right medications, that sort of thing.
• 58:51
  So now, being able to reflect to a level of, you know, sometimes I just
• 58:59
  don't get people, and sometimes I talk to them and I just, there's a sort of
• 59:02
  this void of, because I, I wasn't taught that when I was little, you know, when
• 59:07
  I was young, I didn't know what that was, and I wasn't, you know, nobody.
• 59:13
  I didn't know what having a cuddle and feeling safe and secure was,
• 59:17
  and being able to go from that to then now being able to reflect to
• 59:22
  a deeper level, and I only see them once a month, you know, and it just.
• 59:27
  What a journey for them to now be able to go out into into the world.
• 59:32
  And yeah, it's just beautiful,
• 59:35
  Rupert Isaacson: right?
• 59:35
  We judge or we discern if you like success.
• 59:38
  So often by, as you said, going out into the world having a job, having home,
• 59:44
  not causing trouble, you know, not.
• 59:48
  causing yourself or others undue suffering, but even, even more becoming
• 59:53
  a contributing member of society.
• 59:55
  Have you, have you seen that outcome?
• 59:58
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 59:59
  Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  And even, even times where I've seen, I've maybe worked with them for a short time.
• 1:00:05
  And like I said, this, the models that I've chosen to use in, in sort
• 1:00:10
  of collaboration and combination.
• 1:00:13
  Like I've seen kids that might have run away, but I've worked with them
• 1:00:17
  for six months to a year and then.
• 1:00:19
  Been able to just through the grapevine, I'll run into a worker and
• 1:00:22
  be like, oh, you know, did they ever like, reconnect if they have a safe.
• 1:00:27
  And to know that they're doing okay, and they're doing well, and yes, they did
• 1:00:30
  have some struggles, but they're safe now.
• 1:00:33
  Means the world, you know, and I had a kid that I went to shelter to see, and I
• 1:00:38
  was like, wait, this kid looks familiar.
• 1:00:41
  He was a part of a group that we had years ago, and this kid
• 1:00:45
  remembered the names of our animals, the dogs, the horses and the cats.
• 1:00:49
  And you can't tell me in typical therapy and traditional therapy half
• 1:00:54
  the time the kids don't even know the name of the therapist, right?
• 1:00:58
  That's pretty powerful.
• 1:01:00
  That's pretty powerful.
• 1:01:03
  Rupert Isaacson: When you, have you seen any of those people come
• 1:01:08
  into the therapy world themselves and, and become therapist mentors?
• 1:01:14
  Ellie Williams: Not yet.
• 1:01:15
  Just because I mean, we're in 18 years.
• 1:01:18
  I have had some interns that have been that have grown up in the foster care
• 1:01:23
  system that have become therapists, but I did not work with them to
• 1:01:27
  Rupert Isaacson: see that happen.
• 1:01:28
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:01:29
  Yeah, for sure.
• 1:01:30
  Rupert Isaacson: That's great.
• 1:01:31
  So, so, so some can see it as a career path too.
• 1:01:35
  Ellie Williams: Yes.
• 1:01:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Great.
• 1:01:36
  Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  Alright.
• 1:01:38
  I want to ask you about another thing, . You mentioned neurofeedback.
• 1:01:42
  Now I happen to be a fan of neurofeedback.
• 1:01:44
  I've had neurofeedback myself and in times in my life when I've been
• 1:01:49
  going through funks, you know, I will seek out healing of various kinds.
• 1:01:53
  People know that I would obviously ride to Mongolia or go to the Kalahari or.
• 1:01:58
  You know, go sit in sweat lodges and all of that.
• 1:02:01
  Yes.
• 1:02:01
  But I'd also look, you know, in more conventional as much as saying
• 1:02:08
  neurofeedback is conventional.
• 1:02:09
  And I've, you know, tried therapy.
• 1:02:10
  I find therapy didn't work for me so much because it felt like my nose was
• 1:02:14
  being rubbed in my own poop you know, and it was a bit less of a bad dog,
• 1:02:17
  you know, bad dog is why I'm here.
• 1:02:20
  But I found with neurofeedback I've been intrigued because I've met a
• 1:02:24
  neurofeedback the practitioner and therapist some years before, and I'd
• 1:02:27
  always say, Ooh, that sounds interesting.
• 1:02:29
  Got to learn more about that.
• 1:02:31
  And it'd been on the list.
• 1:02:32
  And then finally that was for the one day I think I might benefit from that.
• 1:02:36
  So I went along and had the, you know, the electrodes put on
• 1:02:40
  my head and watch the screen.
• 1:02:41
  I'm going to have you talk us through what happens with that.
• 1:02:45
  But what was interesting to me is I could feel, I could
• 1:02:48
  physically feel my brain changing.
• 1:02:51
  Yeah.
• 1:02:52
  And I could feel.
• 1:02:55
  Thought processes changing in a way that
• 1:03:01
  the closest I could come to something, compare that palpably was things
• 1:03:09
  I felt with really good healers in indigenous settings, where you could
• 1:03:12
  feel the change really happening physiologically inside you and your brain.
• 1:03:17
  So please talk us through neurofeedback.
• 1:03:20
  Not a lot of people won't know what it is.
• 1:03:22
  And they might get that confused with other types of feedback things.
• 1:03:27
  So what is neurofeedback?
• 1:03:28
  How does it differ from other types of feedback?
• 1:03:31
  And then also there are different types of neurofeedback.
• 1:03:33
  So just give us the skinny.
• 1:03:36
  Ellie Williams: So I use a system called neuro optimal neurofeedback,
• 1:03:40
  and that is a system that is sort of all included within itself.
• 1:03:46
  So sometimes with biofeedback or other neurofeedback systems, You have to become
• 1:03:51
  a clinician in that you make adjustments as the, the training goes with the system
• 1:03:58
  that I use the neuro optimal system.
• 1:04:01
  It is all within the algorithm.
• 1:04:03
  So, as having the machine, the brain training system, I
• 1:04:07
  am able to hook up a client.
• 1:04:11
  It's a 33 minutes.
• 1:04:13
  System training and I unhook them.
• 1:04:17
  Everything is done within the algorithm, which is fantastic because
• 1:04:19
  there's no room for human error.
• 1:04:22
  It really
• 1:04:22
  Rupert Isaacson: does that mean if I go Alexa is healing me.
• 1:04:29
  Alexa fix my brain.
• 1:04:31
  Ellie Williams: Yeah,
• 1:04:32
  Rupert Isaacson: brain
• 1:04:33
  Ellie Williams: brain.
• 1:04:33
  Okay.
• 1:04:34
  Yeah, it's I love this system.
• 1:04:37
  And again, it's the system that I chose to use because of it being within.
• 1:04:42
  Within the system, and I don't have to because I do it there.
• 1:04:45
  I can do a therapy session while that client is hooked up for neurofeedback.
• 1:04:50
  So, the system that I use reads.
• 1:04:53
  356 brain waves a 2nd, it allows for if it reads an imbalance in the
• 1:05:00
  brain, there will be a scratch in the music or a break in the music.
• 1:05:04
  and the brain kind of goes, wait, what?
• 1:05:06
  And adjusts.
• 1:05:08
  So it's helping sort of like regulate your brain mechanically.
• 1:05:13
  So then hopefully your brain will then start regulating itself on its own.
• 1:05:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Are they watching?
• 1:05:19
  So when I did it, I watched a movie and then I actually
• 1:05:23
  watched a series on neuroscience.
• 1:05:25
  I thought that was appropriate and I was sitting in the chair and whenever
• 1:05:30
  occasionally, you know, the screen go very small or fuzzy or something.
• 1:05:35
  And presumably that was when the machine was detecting some quirk or anomaly or
• 1:05:41
  something, and then it would write itself.
• 1:05:44
  And as you explained that, you know, my therapist explained,
• 1:05:46
  well, that's your brain.
• 1:05:48
  Writing it, but this is a bit, this can come off as gobbledygook to people
• 1:05:54
  that don't know and understand it.
• 1:05:56
  What's going on?
• 1:05:56
  Why are you watching a screen?
• 1:05:57
  Why are you listening to music?
• 1:05:58
  Why does it change or the screen go small or something?
• 1:06:01
  What's happening when that happens and what happens when it writes itself?
• 1:06:06
  Just give us a total ignoramus to tell us.
• 1:06:10
  Ellie Williams: Well, I think, I think when the brain is stressed, if
• 1:06:13
  you think about a muscle, like your brain's a muscle, just like your arms
• 1:06:16
  and your legs and all that stuff.
• 1:06:17
  But when you're out of whack, your brain, nothing is balanced.
• 1:06:21
  Right?
• 1:06:22
  So, it's, it's like, when we're stressed, we're holding ourselves,
• 1:06:26
  we're tense, we're like, achy, our brain's achy, we have headaches we're
• 1:06:30
  not sleeping, those sort of things.
• 1:06:33
  And being able to, like you say, you feel a difference.
• 1:06:38
  So it's reading your brain waves and it's working to regulate.
• 1:06:41
  It's working to balance within the system.
• 1:06:44
  So I always called it my magic machine.
• 1:06:47
  I love the kids.
• 1:06:48
  They may they like me pulling it a magic machine because it does.
• 1:06:51
  They feel better using it.
• 1:06:54
  And the great thing is, is the system now you can actually do a therapy session
• 1:06:58
  during the time that you're hooked up.
• 1:07:00
  That's why I like doing, I mean, I can do a movie.
• 1:07:03
  I choose the audio with the music because I can do the
• 1:07:07
  therapy session at the same time.
• 1:07:10
  Rupert Isaacson: When you do a therapy session at the same time
• 1:07:12
  the, the, presumably the person, they're talking to you, right?
• 1:07:16
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:07:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Presumably the person is going through, the brain
• 1:07:23
  is computing information that, you know, and trying to make decisions
• 1:07:26
  and trying to understand things.
• 1:07:29
  How do you know that the machine is not misinterpreting the brain
• 1:07:34
  going, what does Ellie mean by that?
• 1:07:36
  As a brain imbalance thing, like, how, how would it know?
• 1:07:41
  Ellie Williams: Because it's amazing.
• 1:07:44
  It is all within the algorithm, to be fair.
• 1:07:47
  I'd have to ask Dr.
• 1:07:48
  Brown for that one.
• 1:07:48
  But the
• 1:07:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Who is Dr.
• 1:07:50
  Brown, by the way?
• 1:07:50
  Ellie Williams: He created the neuro optimal system.
• 1:07:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
• 1:07:53
  Who Brown?
• 1:07:54
  Ellie Williams: Just go with Dr.
• 1:07:55
  Brown because it's something that's a bit,
• 1:07:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Neuro, neuro optimal, Neurofeedback, yes.
• 1:08:01
  Neurofeedback, Dr.
• 1:08:02
  Brown.
• 1:08:02
  Just keep talking, I'm going to look him up.
• 1:08:04
  Ellie Williams: Okay, thanks.
• 1:08:05
  So for me, it's,
• 1:08:08
  I find it interesting because I'll start with a client who might be actually quite
• 1:08:12
  resistant to opening up to that deeper level, and more often than not, the brain
• 1:08:18
  regulates probably about 15 minutes in.
• 1:08:21
  And it's starting to open up, and they're actually more open to going to
• 1:08:25
  a deeper level, so it's almost an aid to the therapy session, because you're
• 1:08:30
  able to really go to a great place.
• 1:08:34
  There's less deflection and disconnect.
• 1:08:37
  From a therapeutic perspective which is amazing.
• 1:08:40
  That's why when I have clients that are in shelter, and I go see them
• 1:08:43
  in shelter, I always recommend the neurofeedback along with a therapy
• 1:08:47
  session because it's important to me being in a shelter placement anyway
• 1:08:52
  is nerve wracking and stressful.
• 1:08:54
  So it's, it's just important, you know, we have the ability through the neuro
• 1:09:00
  optimal system to, to help regulate and balance and yeah, it's, it's amazing.
• 1:09:08
  Rupert Isaacson: What, what makes you decide, okay, I think for
• 1:09:12
  this client, it's neurofeedback.
• 1:09:15
  Ellie Williams: I think if I see them dysregulated and not being able to
• 1:09:19
  regulate, if, as long as I can keep them.
• 1:09:22
  In the chair, like I have some kids, like I said earlier that just need to run
• 1:09:26
  around, but it's a very active session.
• 1:09:29
  Obviously, I can't do that if they're attached to neurofeedback, but I
• 1:09:34
  think if I can see them starting to regulate themselves without it.
• 1:09:40
  they won't need it, you know, but if they really need, if they're that dysregulated
• 1:09:46
  and they're really struggling, it's such a, I mean, it's, it's just a wonderful,
• 1:09:53
  I don't know what the right word is tool.
• 1:09:55
  It's just a wonderful tool that it'll help them get to where
• 1:09:58
  they need to be easier, quicker.
• 1:10:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that in general clients, kids or adults
• 1:10:05
  that they're quite curious about it?
• 1:10:06
  Like,
• 1:10:07
  Ellie Williams: absolutely.
• 1:10:08
  So I do,
• 1:10:09
  Rupert Isaacson: right.
• 1:10:09
  Yeah,
• 1:10:10
  Ellie Williams: yeah, I do.
• 1:10:11
  I do some sports kids that have like big it either riding showing athletics.
• 1:10:17
  I have some clients that come just for neurofeedback because it helps
• 1:10:22
  with their sport performance.
• 1:10:25
  A lot of sports, especially, I mean, I think worldwide, but there's a lot of
• 1:10:29
  pressure in, in sports for teenagers.
• 1:10:32
  And I cannot tell you, like, I'll show up and nobody wants to see me.
• 1:10:36
  They're just like, you have the machine?
• 1:10:38
  Do you have the machine?
• 1:10:39
  Because they, they want to feel better and they do.
• 1:10:42
  Like you said, it works.
• 1:10:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, it really did.
• 1:10:45
  It was, I looked forward.
• 1:10:47
  I, you know, I couldn't imagine looking forward to a therapy session
• 1:10:49
  until I, until I discovered that.
• 1:10:51
  I was like, I would, you know, I'd be like leaping out of the car and into the chair.
• 1:10:55
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:10:56
  Rupert Isaacson: And it also felt frequently that one got full of
• 1:11:01
  endorphins because you could feel your brain actually working hard.
• 1:11:05
  You know how it is.
• 1:11:06
  You you're on you
• 1:11:07
  Ellie Williams: sometimes
• 1:11:08
  Rupert Isaacson: have trouble staying awake.
• 1:11:09
  You almost want to drop off and you can feel your brain kind of going fucking
• 1:11:13
  on running up the hill here, you know, and but there was a corresponding
• 1:11:16
  feeling of pleasure and relief.
• 1:11:19
  Ellie Williams: Right.
• 1:11:19
  Rupert Isaacson: It's as if one had done a workout.
• 1:11:21
  Have you, here's a question.
• 1:11:22
  Have you tried it yourself?
• 1:11:24
  Ellie Williams: Oh, I
• 1:11:24
  Rupert Isaacson: love
• 1:11:24
  Ellie Williams: it.
• 1:11:25
  Yes.
• 1:11:25
  If I have to, if I have a big court day, like testimony wise I'll hook up before
• 1:11:30
  I go in cause I'll be super focused.
• 1:11:32
  But also, you know, running a business and everything, you get, you know,
• 1:11:36
  get overwhelmed and it's a bit hectic.
• 1:11:39
  But it's a nice way to regulate as well.
• 1:11:40
  So yeah, love it.
• 1:11:41
  Rupert Isaacson: So when you do that, I mean, for your own stress management
• 1:11:44
  then and coping, do you have someone hook you up or do you hook yourself up?
• 1:11:49
  Ellie Williams: I hook myself up, which is quite tricky.
• 1:11:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
• 1:11:53
  Ellie Williams: Trying to figure it out.
• 1:11:54
  Yeah.
• 1:11:55
  Yeah.
• 1:11:55
  I get it.
• 1:11:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:11:56
  I can see why you had trouble remembering Dr.
• 1:11:59
  Brown's Christian name because it is indeed one I have never seen before.
• 1:12:03
  His name is Valdean.
• 1:12:06
  Ellie Williams: There you go, Val.
• 1:12:07
  That's it.
• 1:12:08
  I knew it was something difficult.
• 1:12:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Valdean.
• 1:12:11
  It's V A L D E A N E.
• 1:12:15
  Okay.
• 1:12:15
  And I'm looking at his bio, which is like 8, 000 pages long.
• 1:12:22
  But it says for he was, he was working in the mental health industry
• 1:12:28
  before getting his PhD in psychology, but for over 25 years, he taught
• 1:12:32
  continuing medical education courses.
• 1:12:36
  Lot of work with borderline anger and so on.
• 1:12:41
  And developed it with his wife, Dr.
• 1:12:42
  Sue Brown.
• 1:12:44
  And I have a, I've pulled up a website, but we'll, we'll give all
• 1:12:48
  these all these resources at the end.
• 1:12:51
  Do you know of many other equine therapy places using neurofeedback?
• 1:12:57
  Ellie Williams: I don't actually.
• 1:12:58
  And it's, it's a conversation that comes up a lot.
• 1:13:01
  Well, first of all, with, with equine, it's difficult because
• 1:13:04
  you'd have to do it separately.
• 1:13:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
• 1:13:06
  Ellie Williams: But I often have through the different conversations
• 1:13:09
  and connections with professionals through DDP with, with dietic
• 1:13:13
  developmental psychotherapy.
• 1:13:15
  It's a conversation that's often had, there's a lot of interest because
• 1:13:19
  it's, again, it's such a great.
• 1:13:21
  Additional support.
• 1:13:23
  So it's something that's being talked about more.
• 1:13:26
  And Dr.
• 1:13:27
  Brown, his brain, remember I said earlier, like, if I don't know it, I want to
• 1:13:31
  find somebody that does like, like you said, his it's like 8000 pages long.
• 1:13:36
  He thinks around like, 5 corners from now, like, he is so beyond smart.
• 1:13:42
  And it was just.
• 1:13:43
  It was an honor to meet him.
• 1:13:45
  How did you meet
• 1:13:46
  Rupert Isaacson: him?
• 1:13:46
  Where did you
• 1:13:47
  Ellie Williams: meet him?
• 1:13:47
  He was a part of the advanced training session that we did.
• 1:13:52
  And just fascinating, absolutely amazing man.
• 1:13:55
  And just again, he's created the system.
• 1:14:00
  That's just absolutely brilliant.
• 1:14:02
  Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody wants, you know, like, you know, with, with
• 1:14:04
  horse boy, for example, we have a lot of locations and I'm thinking now as
• 1:14:08
  we're talking, you know, maybe we should have, you know, a neurofeedback wing
• 1:14:13
  to what we do, because as we're always saying, you know, so much of the time,
• 1:14:18
  the person isn't actually on the horse or interacting with the horse at all.
• 1:14:22
  You know, that, that all this other time when they're at your place where
• 1:14:26
  they're, they're not doing that, what are we doing with the rest of our time?
• 1:14:29
  So we of course have movement method and.
• 1:14:31
  Other things, but I'm beginning to think, okay, yeah, maybe we
• 1:14:34
  should have a neurofeedback studio.
• 1:14:36
  What training do you have to go through to do it?
• 1:14:39
  How much does it cost?
• 1:14:40
  What do people need to know?
• 1:14:42
  Ellie Williams: It's actually the cost itself.
• 1:14:44
  I was just having a conversation with a colleague last night, actually.
• 1:14:47
  I like, we have a professional system.
• 1:14:49
  They have family systems that are less expensive and There's a, like
• 1:14:55
  a level, I think it's a level one training and advanced training.
• 1:15:00
  It just goes into more detail about the actual system and the
• 1:15:03
  outcomes and that sort of thing in the, in the advanced training.
• 1:15:06
  It's probably about now.
• 1:15:10
  We got our system a few years back, but probably about 15, 000 maybe to
• 1:15:15
  the system for the professional system
• 1:15:17
  Rupert Isaacson: for the training.
• 1:15:18
  Ellie Williams: It wasn't, it wasn't a lot.
• 1:15:20
  I mean, it was, it was probably a few hundred dollars
• 1:15:24
  training and it was online.
• 1:15:26
  You don't have to be a clinician to just hook up.
• 1:15:30
  You can be a life coach.
• 1:15:32
  You could be a, you know, a worker.
• 1:15:34
  Because you're, as long as you're not providing counseling,
• 1:15:37
  you can see what I mean.
• 1:15:38
  So it can be used in different, different avenues.
• 1:15:42
  And
• 1:15:42
  Rupert Isaacson: someone could indeed just get a machine and use it on themselves.
• 1:15:45
  Ellie Williams: For sure.
• 1:15:45
  Yeah.
• 1:15:46
  So I went down to a pony finals in the U S and I was hooking people up.
• 1:15:51
  And I had a, one of the customers went and bought their own machine
• 1:15:55
  because they're like Was absolutely loved it and wanted to keep doing it.
• 1:15:59
  So now if you have a personal machine, you pay per time that you get hooked up.
• 1:16:06
  You can like get a bundle of 100 or 10 with the professional system.
• 1:16:10
  It's unlimited, which is nice.
• 1:16:13
  And
• 1:16:15
  Rupert Isaacson: okay so that's the, how long is the training?
• 1:16:19
  Ellie Williams: It's usually, I think it's like a weekend or two mornings.
• 1:16:23
  Rupert Isaacson: So it's really doable.
• 1:16:24
  Yeah,
• 1:16:24
  Ellie Williams: absolutely.
• 1:16:25
  Rupert Isaacson: And.
• 1:16:27
  Insurance?
• 1:16:28
  Any special insurances?
• 1:16:29
  What if the machine goes bang while it's on your head or whatever?
• 1:16:31
  Yeah,
• 1:16:32
  Ellie Williams: so, well, there's no, there's no it can't hurt you.
• 1:16:36
  So insurance, like liability, I mean, that is covered under our
• 1:16:39
  liability, you know, for the company.
• 1:16:42
  Rupert Isaacson: So, so if someone's already got a therapeutic
• 1:16:46
  practice, they don't need to take out extra insurance for this?
• 1:16:48
  Ellie Williams: Correct.
• 1:16:49
  Correct.
• 1:16:50
  The we do pay for a membership with the company.
• 1:16:55
  So then, like, we had a situation where it stopped working because,
• 1:17:00
  you know, technology stops working.
• 1:17:02
  They had another system to us within 2 days from Canada.
• 1:17:05
  It's a Canadian company.
• 1:17:07
  And in two days, we shipped them ours, they fixed it, they shipped it
• 1:17:11
  back, I mean, absolutely brilliant.
• 1:17:14
  They also will go in like the back door and fix it if it's something that they
• 1:17:19
  can fix in like from remotely, that is, I mean, it's worth every penny.
• 1:17:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:17:27
  Sold.
• 1:17:28
  I think I'm going to do it.
• 1:17:30
  Why not?
• 1:17:32
  Okay.
• 1:17:32
  So, we've covered a fair bit of ground here.
• 1:17:36
  I know you're also working with military.
• 1:17:40
  How does that work?
• 1:17:43
  And how, how's it different?
• 1:17:45
  From the work you're doing with trauma, with other types of trauma,
• 1:17:49
  or it, does it really effectively, you know, turn out to be the same work?
• 1:17:54
  Ellie Williams: Well, I think the work of it is the same.
• 1:17:56
  I think the, the biggest struggle we have is the stigma behind mental
• 1:18:00
  health treatment with, with getting veterans and military to Sort of buy
• 1:18:06
  in to the work that we do, which is which is probably the biggest struggle.
• 1:18:12
  My biggest just my awareness, because I have I have some.
• 1:18:18
  That's that you have been sort of my, like, sort of
• 1:18:21
  been with me for a long time.
• 1:18:23
  But I think the biggest thing is, is that if you are close to
• 1:18:26
  a base or a big hospital, it's.
• 1:18:31
  that's where you're going to get the clientele.
• 1:18:33
  So just from a personal sort of feedback standpoint, it's, it's really difficult
• 1:18:40
  to get them to come to therapy, you know.
• 1:18:44
  Even when we do
• 1:18:45
  Rupert Isaacson: it,
• 1:18:46
  Ellie Williams: we're still struggle.
• 1:18:47
  We still struggle.
• 1:18:48
  Even if we talk about, you know, just doing groups and not
• 1:18:52
  even, it's not even therapy.
• 1:18:53
  We're doing just learning.
• 1:18:55
  It's still really hard.
• 1:18:57
  If you see what I mean,
• 1:18:57
  Rupert Isaacson: do you, do you go and knock on the doors of the base and say,
• 1:19:00
  Hey, we're here or how do they find you?
• 1:19:04
  Ellie Williams: So we don't have anything close.
• 1:19:06
  Like our, like we're still like our VA hospitals, like an hour and a half
• 1:19:09
  away, which makes it really difficult.
• 1:19:13
  But yes, that's how I started.
• 1:19:16
  So yeah, it's it's again it's about knocking on the doors, asking them
• 1:19:22
  three times and hopefully by the fourth time it'll, they'll just say yes.
• 1:19:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:19:26
  Yeah.
• 1:19:26
  Yeah.
• 1:19:27
  I mean, as we, we fallen into it ourselves almost by accident by word of mouth.
• 1:19:32
  And now, you know, we've had programs with the U.
• 1:19:34
  S.
• 1:19:34
  Air Force and the Bundeswehr in Germany, and recently actually with the
• 1:19:37
  Department of Defense in the Netherlands.
• 1:19:40
  In Europe, it seems that there really is, And embracing and
• 1:19:45
  an acceptance particularly when it involves horses and animals.
• 1:19:48
  I think you must have found this that when you have adults and you're
• 1:19:52
  pairing them up with the ponies,
• 1:19:55
  Ellie Williams: yeah,
• 1:19:56
  Rupert Isaacson: well, they, they, they show up just because they like
• 1:19:58
  the horses, you know, and that one of the things that we noticed was
• 1:20:01
  that people will complete and finish.
• 1:20:05
  A therapy program, really, just because they miss the
• 1:20:09
  horses and they want to come.
• 1:20:10
  They don't give a, they don't care about us.
• 1:20:12
  They just, yeah.
• 1:20:13
  And that's really how it should be.
• 1:20:15
  And I think that's one of the powers.
• 1:20:17
  When you're, is there anything specific about the work that you're doing
• 1:20:22
  with military or first responders?
• 1:20:25
  What, how, what's different about your approach when you're doing that?
• 1:20:29
  I
• 1:20:30
  Ellie Williams: don't think, I think it's, it's all quite consistent.
• 1:20:32
  I think the, the biggest piece for me, I mean, we work within the trauma field.
• 1:20:37
  And I mean, our lives are built on relationships.
• 1:20:41
  So, whether it's combat trauma or complex trauma, you know, we're
• 1:20:48
  still gonna use the same skills and it just, it just might, might have a
• 1:20:51
  little bit of a different audience.
• 1:20:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:20:55
  If you have, do you deal with guilt of feeling that, Somebody was there
• 1:21:03
  on the wrong side doing the wrong thing, like that kind of guilt, not
• 1:21:09
  I took a life or I experienced a traumatic situation or many, but I
• 1:21:15
  really actually feel that I shouldn't have been there and I was the baddie.
• 1:21:21
  Do you, do you, do you get, have you dealt with that guilt?
• 1:21:23
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:21:25
  Rupert Isaacson: And how do you deal with that?
• 1:21:27
  I'm curious.
• 1:21:29
  Ellie Williams: I think with a lot of like, except like acceptance and empathy,
• 1:21:33
  you know, you have to fully understand and unpack where they're coming from, you
• 1:21:37
  know, and I'm just like, understanding, you know, that perspective, putting,
• 1:21:42
  putting yourself in their shoes and understanding like, what is that for them.
• 1:21:48
  That's so important.
• 1:21:50
  And for them to be heard and to completely unpack it and understand it
• 1:21:55
  and, you know, they can't change it.
• 1:21:59
  How can they work through it, you know?
• 1:22:02
  Rupert Isaacson: How do they work through it?
• 1:22:03
  Do you tend to observe?
• 1:22:06
  What's the internal process that you observe?
• 1:22:09
  Ellie Williams: Well, it's different for everyone.
• 1:22:11
  Sure.
• 1:22:11
  You know, I think, I think it's they have to go through, you know, the acceptance.
• 1:22:16
  They have to go through Yeah, understanding and it's, I think the
• 1:22:23
  horses meeting them where they are and being able to just, they, they, they
• 1:22:31
  don't, they don't take any crap, but the horses don't, they, they know, you
• 1:22:36
  know, like I've had, I've had that's talking about situations in the middle
• 1:22:40
  of the field and the alpha horse comes and puts his head on his chest.
• 1:22:44
  You know, from the other side of the field, you know, it's, it's instances
• 1:22:49
  like that that's different that makes it more profound and more powerful to,
• 1:22:56
  you know, talking about the loss of a family member, and then having this.
• 1:23:03
  Profound moment, you know,
• 1:23:05
  Rupert Isaacson: and
• 1:23:07
  Ellie Williams: it's, that's what makes this work different.
• 1:23:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 1:23:10
  No, I, I couldn't agree more.
• 1:23:11
  And when you see those things happen, you can't explain them.
• 1:23:13
  I remember you, you probably remember a horse we had called clue.
• 1:23:16
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:23:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Who actually passed away this year finally, but in
• 1:23:19
  the best way, he very, very old.
• 1:23:21
  And he just was not getting up one morning in the field as he was good.
• 1:23:25
  And he was still the boss.
• 1:23:27
  Mr.
• 1:23:27
  Grumps, but Mr.
• 1:23:28
  Grumps I remember once we had a child who had drowned and Was in a pretty
• 1:23:35
  unreachable vegetative state and you know, they brought him out to us and
• 1:23:42
  he said, gosh, you know, it's just, I'm punching above my weight here.
• 1:23:45
  You know, I, I, I truly just don't know what to do, but I
• 1:23:49
  don't want to turn people away and clue is exactly as you described.
• 1:23:53
  He came from across the field and he began to lick this child all over his body.
• 1:23:59
  Wow.
• 1:23:59
  Yeah.
• 1:24:00
  And you're looking at it going, what is this?
• 1:24:02
  Yes.
• 1:24:03
  Yeah.
• 1:24:03
  You think, you know, something about horses and you realize you
• 1:24:07
  absolutely know nothing at all.
• 1:24:08
  You know, you, you, yes.
• 1:24:10
  And at the end of that, the child reached out and you know, and
• 1:24:18
  then clues like, Oh, job done.
• 1:24:20
  You know, he goes off and just starts grazing and you're standing there
• 1:24:24
  with your mind completely blown.
• 1:24:26
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:24:26
  Yeah.
• 1:24:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
• 1:24:28
  Ellie Williams: it is.
• 1:24:30
  Well, I think it helps the process, doesn't it?
• 1:24:32
  I mean, that's a profound story and it just, it can bring, especially I
• 1:24:38
  think with veterans sometimes the, the disconnect can be so severe and
• 1:24:43
  it can bring like that grounding that, that connection back to the, to the
• 1:24:49
  moment and to the, to the present time.
• 1:24:51
  That can be really important with the horses.
• 1:24:54
  Like, I've had a lot of female veterans with military sexual trauma.
• 1:24:59
  And I'll tell you, I've had horses that don't get mouthy, get mouthy.
• 1:25:03
  And then it's that whole boundary, and you need to say no, and set the the
• 1:25:09
  rule, and And then, wow, what was that?
• 1:25:12
  I didn't want him doing that.
• 1:25:14
  You know, okay.
• 1:25:16
  How did you say, how did you say no, thank you.
• 1:25:18
  No, I don't want you to do that.
• 1:25:20
  So it's it's a great start to that conversation of like, no,
• 1:25:27
  no.
• 1:25:29
  Rupert Isaacson: So that's interesting.
• 1:25:29
  You observe the horse pushing over
• 1:25:32
  Ellie Williams: the
• 1:25:34
  Rupert Isaacson: boundary or at least perhaps the boundary and not being there.
• 1:25:36
  So the horse and then a boundary being set and then the horse respecting.
• 1:25:39
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:25:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, amazing.
• 1:25:41
  Ellie Williams: Or the horse not respecting it immediately because
• 1:25:44
  sometimes people don't listen to that person now and having to, yeah, that,
• 1:25:51
  that's been, that's been a that happens a lot with the, the sexual trauma stuff,
• 1:25:57
  you know, from a, from a standpoint of, you know, from a, yeah, as a victim.
• 1:26:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Here's a question, you know, men tend not to talk
• 1:26:08
  about their sexual trauma very much.
• 1:26:10
  There's more particularly if it's male to male, you know, there's a lot of
• 1:26:13
  shame attached to it and, you know, compromised manhood and all that.
• 1:26:17
  Do you, but it does happen, of course, it happens quite a lot in the military.
• 1:26:20
  Have you worked with that much?
• 1:26:23
  Ellie Williams: Not as much again, just military wise, just because of
• 1:26:27
  just our location, we don't have that.
• 1:26:32
  large of a population.
• 1:26:33
  I have worked with it with young, younger boys that have
• 1:26:37
  been victims of sexual assault.
• 1:26:39
  Sexual abuse in childhood and then working through not only the
• 1:26:43
  trauma, but their sexuality, their identity, that sort of thing.
• 1:26:50
  Rupert Isaacson: When it comes to an identity issue that's tied up with that,
• 1:26:55
  how can you give us an idea about how the work with the horses might play out?
• 1:27:04
  Ellie Williams: Well, it's interesting, actually, because as of right now,
• 1:27:06
  the conversation comes up a lot.
• 1:27:11
  The conversation comes up a lot because we have all male horses on
• 1:27:14
  the farm, and that's not by choice.
• 1:27:15
  It just happened that way, whether they were donated, whether they're ours.
• 1:27:19
  And I swear most, most oftentimes horses will, the male horses will
• 1:27:25
  drop down with their penis out so they can during session because either
• 1:27:29
  they have to pee, they're relaxed.
• 1:27:30
  They're just.
• 1:27:31
  And it seems to present itself when you're talking about sexual
• 1:27:35
  assault, that sort of thing.
• 1:27:37
  So it gives a good conversation starter, because you're
• 1:27:40
  already talking about anatomy.
• 1:27:42
  And because, especially younger kids, they'll be like, what's that?
• 1:27:45
  You know, because they don't necessarily understand.
• 1:27:48
  But it's, it is, it's every, again, everybody's different.
• 1:27:52
  And when you talk about, It's a great to start with the horses, which
• 1:27:56
  talk about their identity and their identities change from client to client.
• 1:28:01
  They might be a girl, they might be a boy, they might be a cat.
• 1:28:04
  I mean, it can be whatever, whatever needs to be.
• 1:28:08
  So it's a good place to start and it's a safer place to start.
• 1:28:11
  You know, it's safer to talk about them than it is to talk about yourself.
• 1:28:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:28:15
  And I guess too, when you say that you're dealing with male horses, because
• 1:28:18
  you're dealing with, with geldings, not with stallions exhibiting, you know.
• 1:28:23
  Big Stanley behaviors.
• 1:28:24
  But, and so I guess that's an interesting, do you use that analogy?
• 1:28:28
  Well, this is, this is, you couldn't say that the horse is gender neutral
• 1:28:32
  cause they're still male, but they are, their gender has been modified.
• 1:28:35
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:28:35
  Rupert Isaacson: That is impacting their behavior.
• 1:28:40
  Does that come up in conversation?
• 1:28:41
  And if so, how?
• 1:28:43
  Ellie Williams: Not, not specifically because it, I try and try and leave
• 1:28:48
  the educational part, that sort of educational part out, because I want
• 1:28:52
  to know more from what the clients.
• 1:28:54
  observing and what, what they related to.
• 1:28:57
  So for example, um, having a conversation with a client about
• 1:29:03
  what brought them into foster care and the sexual assault by mom's
• 1:29:09
  caramel, you know, that sort of thing.
• 1:29:11
  And then the horse comes, it's, it's around and they drop down
• 1:29:16
  or so we're having conversations with starting conversations.
• 1:29:20
  And we have one little miniature horse that came into our care
• 1:29:24
  because of some serious abuse.
• 1:29:26
  It was not sexual abuse, but it's a good place to start.
• 1:29:30
  It's a little bit safer.
• 1:29:31
  We talk about You know, how he is and what his life is like
• 1:29:36
  now and how he might see things.
• 1:29:38
  And he also says, he has tricks.
• 1:29:40
  So he says yes and no, which is nice.
• 1:29:42
  So depending on the age of the child, that might come into play.
• 1:29:45
  So yeah.
• 1:29:49
  Rupert Isaacson: The work that you do when you go out, okay, you, you,
• 1:29:55
  how, how big of a team are you now?
• 1:29:57
  You, you, you've got a relatively compact herd.
• 1:30:03
  You said two horses, a couple of minis in it.
• 1:30:06
  cat and a dog sort of thing.
• 1:30:08
  But it sounds like you've got a lot of clients.
• 1:30:09
  And so who are your co workers?
• 1:30:13
  How have you built your practice?
• 1:30:14
  What does your practice look like?
• 1:30:16
  And what do you find is an optimal sort of a practice?
• 1:30:19
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, we, we only have a small farm, so we only have about
• 1:30:22
  10 acres at the, at the main farm.
• 1:30:25
  So that would be really can't get much more.
• 1:30:28
  We're getting a thoroughbred actually next week, which is nice.
• 1:30:31
  He's going to be off the track and has a new, he'll have a new career.
• 1:30:34
  Which will be very similar.
• 1:30:36
  We're going to try and almost document his, his journey, which will be nice.
• 1:30:43
  We have two therapists on staff now, which is fantastic because I, we had
• 1:30:48
  multiple therapists and then COVID hit and then I was the only therapist again.
• 1:30:53
  We have about five equine professionals, six if I count the
• 1:30:58
  one in Maryland, which is nice.
• 1:30:59
  So it's probably about a staff of 10 altogether.
• 1:31:03
  So it's still quite small.
• 1:31:04
  Um, but it's This is a tricky it's a tricky world to be in.
• 1:31:09
  I mean, we're probably 1 of the only facilities in the area that strictly.
• 1:31:15
  It was mostly equine work.
• 1:31:17
  I mean, I said I do office work as well, but.
• 1:31:20
  Primarily, I mean, I'll I'll.
• 1:31:22
  Equine is in our name, so, so, yeah.
• 1:31:25
  And when you're
• 1:31:26
  Rupert Isaacson: doing office work, are you, are you often bringing those people
• 1:31:28
  into the equine work at some point?
• 1:31:31
  Yeah, I mean,
• 1:31:32
  Ellie Williams: some, it depends.
• 1:31:33
  Like, I'll have some office sessions and we have some cats and dogs.
• 1:31:37
  We've had rabbits in the past.
• 1:31:39
  So, you know, we're bringing, we still have animals in session.
• 1:31:42
  That just might be a little different.
• 1:31:44
  And then I have a kid that has been doing neurofeedback in an office session and
• 1:31:49
  and she's like, can I, can we do horses?
• 1:31:51
  I'd like to do some more stuff.
• 1:31:52
  And I'm like, okay.
• 1:31:53
  Rupert Isaacson: So how
• 1:31:54
  Ellie Williams: does the
• 1:31:55
  Rupert Isaacson: cat help?
• 1:31:57
  Ellie Williams: I love the cat.
• 1:31:58
  So our cat, his name is Mars and he has his own, he grew up in a very violent, not
• 1:32:06
  violent as in he was hurt, but it was sort of lots of play fighting and aggression.
• 1:32:12
  And so.
• 1:32:14
  It's great in a way because a lot of the kids that we have also grew up in that
• 1:32:18
  environment and then when they interact, they have to learn how to respect and.
• 1:32:23
  relax and not hurt each other.
• 1:32:25
  So it's, it's a win win when, when Mars doesn't like bring
• 1:32:31
  out his claws, you know?
• 1:32:33
  Rupert Isaacson: So, yeah.
• 1:32:33
  So how does, how does Mars help with that?
• 1:32:36
  Ellie Williams: He does.
• 1:32:36
  So it's nice because it's an education of like, not only does it happen with people,
• 1:32:40
  it can happen with animals, that, that there can be some aggressive behaviors.
• 1:32:45
  So Mars would, would
• 1:32:46
  Rupert Isaacson: like hiss and scratch and say, oy.
• 1:32:48
  Yep.
• 1:32:49
  Yep.
• 1:32:50
  Ellie Williams: He likes his head scratched, but if you touch his
• 1:32:52
  back, which I'm sure has been an area of unsafe for him, that yeah,
• 1:32:58
  he'll, he'll say no, thank you.
• 1:33:00
  And now he's, he's originally he would like literally like
• 1:33:04
  latch onto you and like bite you.
• 1:33:07
  We would try really hard to not have him sort of interact with the
• 1:33:10
  clients because it wasn't safe.
• 1:33:12
  But over time he's, yeah, becoming really mellow and lovely and nibbles a
• 1:33:16
  little bit, but not, not like he used to.
• 1:33:18
  And it's a, it's a great story for kids to see.
• 1:33:22
  Even the cat can, can learn how to do something different.
• 1:33:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Right, yeah, so I guess it makes an analogy.
• 1:33:28
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:33:28
  Rupert Isaacson: And the dogs, how do you use them?
• 1:33:30
  Ellie Williams: Ah!
• 1:33:31
  So we have a Corgi, her name is Tinka, and she is the, the friendliest dog
• 1:33:35
  ever, and she interacts, she does some really nice like she'll push the bull
• 1:33:42
  towards the client, she loves to play really, she's very interactive, so
• 1:33:46
  again, just like we would have with the horses in session, very interactive.
• 1:33:51
  And she genuinely just loves people.
• 1:33:54
  So there's this happiness and there's joy that she can bring
• 1:33:57
  to session which is good as well.
• 1:33:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:34:00
  Joy, I think is, is, is, is the key here.
• 1:34:03
  I think if, if any of us were to really try to define what it is we try to
• 1:34:08
  do, it's that we try to bring joy.
• 1:34:10
  Right.
• 1:34:10
  I mean that we, you know, people are, there is suffering and what
• 1:34:13
  is the opposite of suffering?
• 1:34:15
  Suffering, the opposite of suffering is joy.
• 1:34:17
  Ellie Williams: Right.
• 1:34:17
  Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, I've observed, I think, more times than I can count,
• 1:34:22
  a dog often being really key with that.
• 1:34:25
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:34:26
  Because
• 1:34:26
  Rupert Isaacson: they can access that, like, so immediately despite whatever
• 1:34:29
  other emotional stuff is going on.
• 1:34:31
  They're like, I am going to be joyful right now because
• 1:34:33
  there's a ball in front of me.
• 1:34:34
  And to sort of, as an analogy, that, you know, that is possible.
• 1:34:39
  You know, you can have stuff going on in your life, but hey, if
• 1:34:42
  someone chucks a ball, it's fun.
• 1:34:44
  Yeah.
• 1:34:45
  I think that's often an underutilized tool.
• 1:34:49
  Yeah.
• 1:34:49
  The, the absolute commitment to joyful mood that dogs
• 1:34:56
  can, can have and can bring.
• 1:34:58
  Okay.
• 1:34:59
  Well, I think there's going to be people that might want to get in touch with
• 1:35:04
  you because you mentor people in how to get going with this type of thing.
• 1:35:11
  Absolutely.
• 1:35:12
  People reach you, Ellie.
• 1:35:14
  Ellie Williams: So, our website is www e do equity team.org,
• 1:35:20
  which is E-Q-U-I-T-E-A-M,
• 1:35:24
  Rupert Isaacson: equity team dot O-R-G-O-R-G.
• 1:35:27
  Ellie Williams: Yep.
• 1:35:28
  And that would basically give you all the connections of what,
• 1:35:32
  it'll give my number and email.
• 1:35:35
  So website is the way to go.
• 1:35:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:35:38
  And then just again, talk us through one by one, each of those, these
• 1:35:43
  modalities you're using, just so people can write them down now at the end.
• 1:35:49
  Ellie Williams: So we use the EGALA model, which is the Equine Assisted Growth and
• 1:35:53
  Learning Association Equine Therapy Model.
• 1:35:56
  I'm a practitioner with Diadic Developmental Psychotherapy.
• 1:36:01
  Rupert Isaacson: DDP
• 1:36:02
  Ellie Williams: and Huh?
• 1:36:04
  Rupert Isaacson: D-D-P-D-D-P.
• 1:36:05
  Ellie Williams: Yeah.
• 1:36:06
  I am a practitioner for Horse Boy, and I do neuro optimal neurofeedback training,
• 1:36:15
  Rupert Isaacson: neuro optimal neurofeedback, and people can
• 1:36:18
  traps if you, if you're looking on.
• 1:36:20
  Ellie's website, the equity team.
• 1:36:22
  org.
• 1:36:22
  There's a lot of information on there on it.
• 1:36:25
  And please do reach out to her as a mentor.
• 1:36:29
  I've watched over the years, Ellie bill.
• 1:36:33
  And she was awesome.
• 1:36:34
  I remember when we first met you, but I've just seen you build it and
• 1:36:36
  build it and build it and go from strength to strength and survive
• 1:36:39
  COVID and, you know, keep serving.
• 1:36:42
  Ellie Williams: Right.
• 1:36:43
  Yeah.
• 1:36:43
  Rupert Isaacson: So hats off.
• 1:36:44
  Ellie Williams: Thank you.
• 1:36:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Easy ride.
• 1:36:46
  I know.
• 1:36:47
  Yeah.
• 1:36:53
  If you had any advice, last words, advice for someone who's just starting
• 1:36:59
  out in this field, because I think this is what people like me, I don't
• 1:37:04
  feel like a veteran in the field.
• 1:37:05
  I feel like the same, you know, newcomer that I always was, but people
• 1:37:08
  who've been at it for a while now, what do you, what's your advice?
• 1:37:13
  What's your, what would you say to people now that want to
• 1:37:17
  get into this professionally?
• 1:37:19
  Ellie Williams: I think, I think to, to more to simplify it is just don't give up,
• 1:37:24
  you know, find your passion and connect with people that can, if you don't know
• 1:37:30
  it, connect with somebody that does.
• 1:37:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Look for mentorship.
• 1:37:33
  Ellie Williams: That's really important.
• 1:37:34
  All
• 1:37:37
  Rupert Isaacson: right.
• 1:37:37
  Well, listen, Ellie, it's been, it's been a delight.
• 1:37:39
  Thank you so much for coming and talking to us.
• 1:37:42
  Ellie Williams: I know.
• 1:37:43
  Rupert Isaacson: It's
• 1:37:43
  Ellie Williams: been wonderful.
• 1:37:44
  Thank you so much.
• 1:37:44
  Oh, and
• 1:37:45
  Rupert Isaacson: remind us again, there's this DDP conference in
• 1:37:47
  Nottingham in the UK, right?
• 1:37:49
  Yes.
• 1:37:49
  Ellie Williams: Yes.
• 1:37:50
  And I think it's the 22nd and 23rd of September.
• 1:37:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:37:55
  So DDP conference, people can type that in.
• 1:37:58
  Ellie Williams: It's the, hold on, 23rd and 24th.
• 1:38:02
  It's the Monday and Tuesday.
• 1:38:05
  Yep.
• 1:38:05
  Rupert Isaacson: And where in Nottingham is it?
• 1:38:06
  Is it a college or something?
• 1:38:07
  It's at
• 1:38:08
  Ellie Williams: the conference centre.
• 1:38:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:38:10
  Ellie Williams: East Midlands Conference Centre, I think.
• 1:38:12
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 1:38:14
  Well, we've got a hospital place not far from there, so I'm going
• 1:38:16
  to see if I can, if I can connect.
• 1:38:19
  Ellie Williams: Yeah, brilliant.
• 1:38:20
  It's going to be absolutely amazing.
• 1:38:22
  It's going to be, I'm excited.
• 1:38:23
  It's been a lot of thought and effort going into it and the the
• 1:38:26
  breakdown of all the presentations that will be coming out shortly.
• 1:38:30
  Rupert Isaacson: There's a lot of people in the UK doing DDP.
• 1:38:32
  Ellie Williams: Yes, huge contingent in the UK.
• 1:38:34
  Okay,
• 1:38:35
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to look into this more.
• 1:38:37
  Thank you for joining me on to it.
• 1:38:38
  I had no idea.
• 1:38:39
  That's why I do this so I can learn.
• 1:38:40
  Yes.
• 1:38:41
  Yeah.
• 1:38:42
  Ellie Williams: Brilliant.
• 1:38:42
  Thank you so much.
• 1:38:43
  Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
• 1:38:44
  Ellie Williams: Fantastic to catch up with you Ruth.
• 1:38:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.
• 1:38:47
  All right.
• 1:38:47
  Well, I hope it won't be too long before I see you.
• 1:38:50
  thank you for joining us.
• 1:38:51
  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
• 1:38:53
  Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online
• 1:38:58
  courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena.
• 1:39:04
  These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people
• 1:39:08
  dealing with trauma around the world.
• 1:39:11
  We also offer a horse training program and self-care program
• 1:39:14
  for riders on long ride home.com.
• 1:39:18
  These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that
• 1:39:22
  bring you and your horse joy.
• 1:39:24
  For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.
• 1:39:29
  See you on the next show.
• 1:39:31
  And please remember to press, subscribe and share.