Latest / You Call That Radio? / 'Trauma Industrial Complex' w/ Darren McGarvey

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'Trauma Industrial Complex' w/ Darren McGarvey · You Call That Radio?

• 0:02
  Speaker A: Is this a Netflix? It's actually a. A podcast. Is what the. A podcast. You know, it's kind of like a radio show.
• 0:10
  Speaker B: Radio.
• 0:14
  Speaker A: Should call that radio. We are. Oh, we are getting labeled. But we're live and unless you're listening to the audio podcast, then we're not life. But we have a special guest. We have think maybe this is a fifth season. I think every season with a darling. Orwell prize winner, BAFTA winning television star. And as of two hours ago, a Sama nominated hip hop artist is Darren McGarvey. How's it going mate?
• 0:44
  Speaker B: Hello. I'm good, how are you?
• 0:46
  Speaker A: I'm all right, mate, I'm all right. It's just busy. It's getting a book finished. So I've just finished listening to your book finally. I started ages ago. It's been a better traumatic year. So I was like, I'll probably wait till it's a bit a better time. But what could be a better time than listening to you talking about how a book destroyed your life? As I'm trying to sort of. Because I like put an audiobook on a podcast on it just sort of drift off to sometimes. But yeah, it didn't help with the insomnia at all, man. That was a lot. Well done. It's a personal, a personal thing.
• 1:22
  Speaker B: Thank you, man, I appreciate that. I mean it's interesting what people take from the book. If you've took that. That a book destroyed my life, then that's interesting.
• 1:34
  Speaker A: Well, that's not what what my takeaway was, but it was more like that that bit made my ears prick up because I'm just finished about it. I went, right, two reasons. One, it's rude to not have listened to Richard book before he come on the show. Even Nicola Sturgeon read your book before she interviewed you. You know, so if Sturgeon's get time. And then when I heard about it I was like, this is maybe really important information before I actually send off my book to publisher. Maybe some, some golden nuggets in there. And there certainly was. So yeah, I took a lot away fit man. I think I've. I think I've diagnosed myself with the, with the, the victim. The victim mentality. I think I've got the, the beginning of the victim mentality. I can see that. I can see that a wee bit. And I think it comes.
• 2:24
  Speaker B: That's really interesting. That's really interesting, man, that you say that.
• 2:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, not like in a pure, not. Not in an extreme way, but I feel like I was, I think I didn't know what it was, but I feel like I was maybe subconsciously aware of it because I just felt a wee bit let down and disappointed in people, I suppose. And I think what I was, I've got. Was aware of is that I'm projecting my standards to other people. And so what I've kind of done is, look, I've just sort of backed away. In fact, I've backed away a lot.
• 2:53
  Speaker B: I've went, I've went rural, I've just left geographical, mate.
• 2:58
  Speaker A: I've just, yeah, I've left the island, all the people. But yeah, am I, am I reading that right, what you're talking about? Because obviously you're talking about the sort of. It can go. It goes on at different extremes.
• 3:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, well, the. That's in the kind of third part of the book. So there's a lot of like establishing certain concepts in order for that part of the book to be slightly more palatable than it might be if you were just coming out with that in the first part. So obviously, first part of the book outlines a kind of cultural critique of the trauma industry and the trauma discourse. Whether you're talking about charities, platform people with trauma, or you talk about social media influencers who either disclose publicly their trauma or mental health professionals of fading ability and agenda, really kind of offering the magic pill for managing your trauma. And then the second part of the book tells a story, you know, shows. Shows the power of a lived experience story, but then begins to deconstruct it, you know, so it's like taking the pre established form of a lived, experienced person talking about the trauma, but then imagine that person stayed on stage for another 15 minutes and went, actually, let's run a fine tooth comb through all of that story I just told you. And so the chapter you're talking about, where it refers to victimhood is ultimately like, it's, it's a kind of call to arms rather than a criticism. And it's me outlining the ways, particularly during my drinking days where I descended. And I want a kind of permanent victim mentality. And on the front and maybe never seemed like that I would have came across maybe as a rebellious activist or somebody who had convictions. But underneath a lot of what was driving it was a sense of feeling excluded, a sense of feeling like I had been forgotten about. And it all can come from childhood, you know, the struggle to be heard. And you know, by outlining it in the way that I do in the book, I'm trying to encourage the reader to go on that journey as well. If they need that. And victimhood manifests in different ways. I think most people will experience a justified sense of victimhood at some point in their life when a wrong has been done to them, whether it's an interpersonal thing or a systemic thing. But ultimately, whatever happens to us, we are the ones that unfortunately are responsible for cleaning up most of the mess. And that means eventually not just being able to describe what happened, but also being able to describe how it changed us for good and for bad. And for bad, for some of us, it can be victim mentality, a victim mindset, or it can become like a victim mentality, which is more pathological. And we know people like that, that they become almost impossible to have a relationship with unless you're constantly co signing. They are very paranoid, delusional way of looking at everything.
• 5:48
  Speaker A: Okay, in one hand I'm like, because I do know people with that. And in one hand I'm like, how can it get that bad? But in another way, I can kind of see how it can be intoxicating to just, you know, like, everything is always somebody else sort of thing. It must be quite, it must be quite hard to let go of that because there's a, there's a freedom to that, I suppose.
• 6:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, there's a freedom. There's a freedom. And basically when that's the answer to every question, then you're not really called upon to do very much, but constantly have it reconfirmed that that is what is the case as. No, but whatever freedom that that gives you, and short term, the long term is that people with a victim mentality, they will actually go around subconsciously burning every bridge to a better mindset, to a healthier lifestyle. Because the minute that anybody who gets close to them, loves them enough to challenge them, then that will be taken as an attack. Because if you, if you're immersed in a victim mentality, there's no constructive criticism, there's no, there's no nuance. And, and, and so unfortunately, one of the negative impacts of the trauma industrial complex is that there's an algorithm for every mindset, including the victim mentality. And so the victim mentality algorithm, it will talk constantly about the systemic issues that you face as a result of your identity configuration. It will say, no, people don't have a right to tell you how to regulate your nervous system because your nervous system's dysregulated as a result of, you know, late stage capitalism, systemic racism, systemic, you know, whatever it might be. And all of these things are true, but you will often Find people who are just as, if not more impacted by those things, who have a different mindset around it, and therefore they experience the world. And I'm more even handed way even when it gets difficult. And it's. It's a difficult thing with a victim mentality because either the person has to really bottom out until they're kind of humbled to, to come back to reality, or they just continue on a path and they become surrounded by people who, you know, exploit or exploitative or people who have similar mentalities. And so they all kind of validate each other. And in a culture where they're not really in touch with the truth of things.
• 8:20
  Speaker A: Can you remember the tweet that you talked about? Because I had to go back because I thought I was disagreeing you with that at one point. So I actually sat with that, but for a while. So it was something like the healing. This.
• 8:32
  Speaker B: The healer, the wounded healer.
• 8:34
  Speaker A: Okay, so it was a, it was a. That you didn't. That you didn't like. And it sounded on the surface like it was all right.
• 8:40
  Speaker B: But.
• 8:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, could, could you go to that?
• 8:44
  Speaker B: Basically, this guy's very, very prominent social media influencer. He's a mental health professional, and he does a lot of good content. But I remember one day he had other tweet where basically the gist of the tweet was he was basically encouraging people who were in the grip of a mental health crisis to start making character judgments about the people around them. He was implying that, you know, your risk of being exploited by people around you is increased by your vulnerability. And that is true. But the way that he framed it was that he framed it in a way that I thought lacked nuance. Because something that was missing from his analysis was that often encouraging people who are in the grip of a mental health crisis to start assessing things like that. It's not always a safe bet. If you've ever walked alongside somebody who's in a mental health crisis, usually, you know, the first problem you've got is convincing them that they've got a problem because they might be impaired some in some ways, but in other ways, they'll still be dead sharp. They'll be able to convince you there's nothing wrong. They'll be able to sometimes even convince you you're harming them by challenging them. And coming from a, a culture of alcoholism, whether at the household level, the, the, the. The cultural level or whatever, this is something I've always seen, and this is something I have exhibited myself. So the, the, the thing that Sorry, just.
• 10:14
  Speaker A: See, I tried. I would have, I would have. I, I was actually, it was quite upsetting it, but hearing how, how bad you were doing and I would have, I would have always challenged you if.
• 10:23
  Speaker B: I thought you were.
• 10:24
  Speaker A: But you, you, you, you really were good at masking things. Like, it blows my mind because obviously there was quite a lot of this book where I'm actually there at some points and I'm like, yeah, wow. I, I had no idea. Sort of, sort of mind blowing. I mean, you did a TED talk. I was a plus one to a TED talk.
• 10:46
  Speaker B: I did a TED Talk and I don't remember doing the TED talk. I freestyled it. So I remember, I suppose in hindsight.
• 10:57
  Speaker A: With that, was that maybe were you something else?
• 11:00
  Speaker B: Well, the hang is when you've got a baseline competence, you can, you can do most things. I mean, there's a lot of clips of me on YouTube and videos and stuff. It's been uploaded by third sector organizations, mental health people, NHS, and like, if I, if I look at the clip, I can tell you if I'm on painkillers or not because I always get a really bloated stomach from coding. So I remember one time I'm talking in the conferences, my bab like 300, 400 strong, you know, and you've got everybody eating at the palm of your hand and there's a part of you that just wants to go, I'm, I'm. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm actually. But the, the thing about the book is that it's saying if we're giving all people all this information about trauma and we're talking about openness and we're talking about being there for people, but a very, very prominent lived experience voice can basically just be a chameleon and camouflage themselves and pretend they're all right while at the same time not being all right, then that really cuts to the assumption that every person who has a story to tell publicly does so for good reasons. That that story is all true and that that story is safe to put into the public domain. So part of the book is also just me cleaning up a bit of the mess that I made in my own and my own life. And I think that while my circumstances are unique to me, people will see the themes will echo for a lot of people in their own lives, irrespective of the level of public notability or whatever. You know, we all tell ourselves stories about our lives and sometimes those stories aren't as true as they feel.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: If you were to go back in time. If you could go back in time, obviously there's probably other things you do first, but just on the. On poverty safari alone, would you, if you had the option, would you change things that you put it in it maybe cause you some controversy?
• 12:57
  Speaker B: I would, I. I wouldn't change. It's hard to say because the way everything that book was true to what everything felt to me at the time. Lally. See, if you could just not run around like a rhinoceros, that'd be great. Thank you. That'd be great. The. It's hard, you know, as well as a creative person, you know, you go back and listen to your early releases and you, you. The first thing you'll notice is the things about. The thing that no longer chime with how you feel about stuff now or even just changes in the way that you express yourself or different tastes that you had. And it's a bit like that with books, especially if there's an element of memoir. They're more like a kind of photograph of how you are at a certain time. But I just. When I wrote my first book, I had no idea it would become like an international thing, you know, so you, you, you can never assume that. You would never plan for that. And so really what happened to me was it sent me on this mad journey of being like, public and then having a sense of. Not necessarily regret, but a sense of the consequences of being as personal as I was. Because not only was I putting information out there, but I was establishing a relationship with readers that was basically, you come to me for this kind of stuff. And so what I found later when I tried to move and directions that were maybe a bit less personal, whether it was other books or whether it was even, you know, people. People wanting to turn aspects of my life and like drama for television and all of that, whenever I would go and meet them and try to pitch them something different, you could sense the lack of interest. You know what I mean? What they wanted was poverty safari, Peaky Blinder style. Do you know what I mean? And I just felt that that was like a. I just felt like that was. It would have been too hard on my family and it would have been too. They would have focused too much on the graphic detail of certain incidents and maybe missed a lot of the context that the book's follow. Do you know what I mean? It's fuller, it's rich with context. But media people, I think sometimes they just, they don't sense that stuff. And so what you get is violence and Depictions of people taking drugs and bevy and all that sort of stuff.
• 15:18
  Speaker A: Cartoon characters, right?
• 15:21
  Speaker B: Exactly. And I think some of the people who approached me back then, you know, they, they, they have a record for doing stuff pretty well and doing stuff pretty tastefully, but also they have a record for doing stuff that's mostly fiction. I've no saw stuff that's actually drawn from autobiography. And I think that, that I can imagine that being a painful process if you're the person who's lived it and then you're watching this thing getting changed in order to fit another medium and go for a big audience. So luckily I never went forward with those things.
• 15:53
  Speaker A: It's a much wider audience if you're gonna have a TV show as well, isn't it? So it's just.
• 15:58
  Speaker B: Well, I always feel if, I always feel if, if there's gonna be something on the telly that's got elements of my life in it and I kind of in, in the style of a drama or something, then, then I would like to be involved right now, know and learn about how to write for that style of, of television. I don't just want to sign over the rights and then just watch a bunch of middle class people doing it, you know what I mean?
• 16:20
  Speaker A: But American, American guys doing Scottish accents.
• 16:25
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 16:27
  Speaker A: I think that a thing that was quite new. Well, it's not, it's actually not. The book's not the first time, but it's in recent time. Which I was really interested about was emdr, which I've actually never heard about until maybe about six months ago. I remember you, I think you maybe did a podcast or you, you remember, you became the spokesman of. Yeah, Am I saying that right?
• 16:50
  Speaker B: Sorry, yeah, that's right. Yep. It's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. So it's a therapy that was basically kind of chanced upon by a psychologist who one day went out for a walk when she was feeling a bit disturbed and she was watching some leaves blowing about on a path and as her eyes were going from left to right, she noticed that a level of disturbance went down a wee bit. So she just had the kind of like epiphany of doing a bit more research into what might cause that and then so advanced to different levels of trials and, and, and, and eventually they did discover that there was a link between what they call bilateral stimulation, which is basically any kind of movement of symmetry in the body, you know, looking left to right or maybe tapping your fingers or having a therapist tap your fingers and when you get someone into that state, then you can speak, you, you basically can make suggestion of a subconscious. So a therapist can basically help you revisit traumatic events. And in doing so and reframing them in a more positive way, they can move them from your, your immediate memory, which is where a lot of trauma is stored. And that's how you get triggered to your long term memory, where the memory is still there, but it can't be activated in a way that's as painful as an emotional trigger. And so emdr, I was like one of the first people to get it in Scotland back in 2002 or 3, 2. And it worked a treat for me. And then my treatment stopped quite abruptly because I kind of aged out. But I still have a relationship with the therapist who did it. And it was her that suggested the EMDR ambassador role because her husband, also a psychologist, who was one of the first responders to the Dunblane shooting. So he's a specialist in trauma. He thought, he thought he'd chance his arm and get, get his wife to ask me since she knew me. And I thought, I am up for it, it'll be cool. So I'll link up with them every now and then and, and try to promote emdr because it's not for everyone. Like no therapy is, you know, but a lot of people don't know about it and because there's a kind of mystical element to it, well, they're not quite sure what it is, you know, in terms of the mechanics.
• 19:06
  Speaker A: Because the first time, as soon as I heard about it, I don't think I'd actually heard it before. So I just. The first thing I do when I hear a new thing is right debunked after it and then work my way back to there and there's quite a lot of positive stuff about it as well. Do you know what I mean? It's not, it's not, it's definitely there. Obviously it's not going to be for everyone. As you said, not a one size fits all. But it was, it was interesting. It was also, it was, it was great to hear the, the warmth and, and reverence you had for that woman.
• 19:36
  Speaker B: I mean, she, she came along when I was maybe about 19 and it was really the first time, I think, my life that I had had somebody who was really only interested in hearing my perspective on all the things that had been going on in my life. You know what I mean? Because usually when you're in a family and there's a lot of adversity you're especially a family where everyone's wounded, everyone's really fighting to be heard over everyone else. So no one's listening to anyone else. And then the battle becomes about who can dominate that kind of toxicity. But when you're sitting across their therapist and they're really just interested in you, then you suddenly feel a sense of relief for the pain. Just in some of the stuff that you've experienced just being witnessed by somebody else rather than somebody trying to defend themselves or dismiss what's happened. Somebody just gone, oh wow, man, that must have been hard. And that's a big part of recovering from trauma. It's just someone attuning to you emotionally. You know, whether you're right or wrong or whether you've got some details wrong or none of that matters in the beginning. Some you need to be met wherever you are and for someone to have a real curiosity about how you've interpreted things and the sort of impact that's had on you mentally and physically. And she provided that for me in a way that I would say saved my bacon back then because it wouldn't. It was only a couple of years after that that then drink became the solution for me, you know what I mean? But I think if I had me, I had some of that work done prior to taking up the drinking when I moved into a flat by myself then I think some of my behavior on the drink might have been a bit more dangerous for me, for other people. But there was something, there was that kind of core resilience through that therapy that I think carried me through some difficult times.
• 21:26
  Speaker A: And as you point out, that's. That wouldn't happen these days, would it? As a. If a 17 year old like yourself and a similar situation went to try and get some help.
• 21:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, because they would need to wait six months to a year. And, and also just that process now, I think now people have lost faith in the idea of even picking up the phone and get asking for help, you know, I mean we all know even just how many of us will sit with something that feels like a doctor could sort it out in a couple of days and we just kind of wait it up because we think I can't be bothered talking to the receptionist and having to kind of plead my case or I can't be bothered sitting and having a phone 100 times before somebody picks up. I'll go to the chemist, I'll get what I can get for there and just plod on and that's all right. If all you've Got is a cold or a wee infection. But, but when it comes to a mental health issue, particularly with the varying quality of information it's available freely online, when it comes to mental health, most people tend to gravitate towards whatever feels good or whatever feels right. And what feels right is whatever validates them initially. Now that's all right in a therapeutic context, but when you're by yourself, just on a journey and a wormhole online, just seeking validation, it takes you down some rabbit holes. I'll actually prolong a lot of your pain. You'll misdiagnose yourself, you'll misdiagnose relational dynamics and you'll misdiagnose people in your life who actually challenge you in ways that are healthy. Because they challenge you and you don't like it. You'll label them in different ways. And that's why you need a therapy, a therapeutic guidance to sort of help you navigate through that buffet. Because people, as you know, if they walk into a buffet, they walk straight to the junk food. You know what I mean? And it's the same way information about health, whether it's fitness, whether it's diet or in this case, trauma.
• 23:23
  Speaker A: And this is sort of similar why everybody's ex is like as a narcissist. No. And stuff like that.
• 23:29
  Speaker B: Everybody, everybody. It's just an easier story to tell yourself in it. The reason you didn't get along with the person is because they have a pathological mental health condition. Because otherwise why would they think you were an. Do you know what I mean?
• 23:50
  Speaker A: This. Obviously I don't, I don't do any spoilers. I'm not going to do spoilers. So I don't want to obviously you, your feelings towards. From industrial complex is complex and it's, you go through various ways of talking about it. But the, Would you say that, would you say that your, your views softened on it in general? Because I, I, I got feeling that you, there was a quite an interesting. About what you said that when you were talking to specialists that you do have respect for them stuff when you're trying to get them to kind of, you know, like, I don't know, back up your, your initial thoughts. Sorry, you feel, I mean.
• 24:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, that, that's right, man. I started off like a lot of my stuff kind of coming from a place of irritation. You know, I think a lot, a lot of my best writing starts there, but it goes through a process of softening and going for a bit more not nuanced and just, just, just kind of ironically, what happened to Me was, you know, halfway through the process I experienced some adversity. And so then I was experiencing like different effects of trauma being kind of awakened by certain circumstances. And so first of all, that gave me a kind of like, that was like a. Once I started to kind of get, get myself together, it reminded me that I can assume what the level of trauma is of the reader or what the experience is of the reader, and that I need to actually tread a lot more delicately through this terrain in terms of what the tone of the book is, because there's a lot of passages in the book that were written for humor and, and, and, and, and while that stuff still works in a live context with audience that's familiar with you, a lot of people come to your book cold, they don't know you. Someone's bought them the book and they're just reading that. And so you need to be careful. So I saw a lot of guidance from mental health professionals in terms of letting them get proof, copies and stuff to give me feedback. I let every single contributor to the book that I feature read the entire chapter that they're featured in so that they can first of all, okay everything. And that was a really useful part of the process as well. But also when I met with certain, the campaigners or, or people with, you know, about a professional background in this, I think that they could sense I was on a journey with it. And part of the thing that brought me back to a place of reasonableness in terms of the tone was just that they, they knew me well enough to sort of give me my place. They understood where my frustrations were coming from. A lot of how I approached this book was informed by my experience of the online world. And so actually it was really, I think it was a prudent decision for me to engage the public for a year before I finished the book, because that really informed. Sometimes you write a book, you lock yourself away, you come up with the answers on your own, and then you just stand behind it when it goes out. But this process that I decided to do, where I'm reading chapters in universities drafts, and I'm getting a sense in the room of how does it feel to say these things when there's instant consequences, you know, and, and I think that that led to a book that might not have been the sort of instant bestseller catnip that I'm more annoyed and Piers Morgan esque type book might have been. But I think in the long run it'll find its audience and it'll have, it'll have real legs. And. And that's a good thing.
• 27:12
  Speaker A: And yeah, with the. You mentioned a bit. You ran up the chapters by everyone. I'm not going to say his name, but I remember his name.
• 27:21
  Speaker B: What about.
• 27:22
  Speaker A: Let's talk about the bit where Eminem has a director once. He's sticking up for yourself. I mean, I think he doesn't run it by Scott or whatever he's called or is that a real name?
• 27:36
  Speaker B: He's a good guy. He went on. He went on to become like a cage fighter. And I can't take credit for credit for that. He went on to become like a cage fighter. So he's. He's like clued up on the martial arts space. And I've chatted to him a few times over the years. He's Someday for school. That kind of has kept tabs on what I'm up to and has always been very nice. But I. That's a memorable moment for my child.
• 28:02
  Speaker A: Just to clarify, I didn't call you a funny. I said something like acting like a fan.
• 28:06
  Speaker B: No, no, it's fine. We were all fannies back then in different ways. But no, the situation was basically like that up until I started listening to hip hop. Then I was. I was less likely to engage in conflict, you know what I mean? Like, my mother had forced me to do it a lot of the time, and I was. So if I did do it was to get her approval, but she was long gone by then. And. And then I started listening to hat pop. And then obviously, when I discovered the Eminem bullying was a big theme in his. Was a big theme in his music. And I had always gravitated in terms of culture towards characters that were brave, you know, like, that were. That could stand up to people. Because I had the fantasy, you know what I mean, of being strong and being able to handle myself. And I think with Eminem, then it was just. He was literally just explaining his experience. And it was just something about the music and how it made me feel. It was just. It was just like an adult Kenya kind of stone talking to. But not just saying you need to go out there and fight and. And basically threatening you with shame. Somebody going into the mindset, you know, the switch where you just go for, you know what? I've had enough of this. And then you just decide to fight back. And that. That was a kind of turning point for me because as much as that was a good moment in terms of my development was also the genesis of a new narrative where I start identifying very strongly a lot of the themes and plot points of Eminem's story. And so then I began to emphasize certain things about my experience and de. Emphasize others, including the relationship with my mother and the dysfunction and you know, growing up in. In a. In a. In a workingclass community. And so it's like, it's not that that stuff wasn't true, but I started dialing that up when I got into the hip hop scene. And then you pour alcohol and drugs into that and hang hands in the hip hop scene. Everyone bought into Loki very quickly, you know what I mean? So it became kind of harder for me to be more authentic a lot of the time because it was like no one's interested. And the other stuff, you know, I mean, at least I thought that obviously as the music developed and then I start writing songs like across the room where you start to get a sense of another part of me that's coming through. But for a while I just felt that I was. Had not even playing up to it in a conscious way. I enjoyed the power, the feeling of power. Enjoyed the feeling of being powerful, the feeling of being feared, the feeling of being known as somebody who's not running for conflict, but somebody who's looking for you. Because that was. That wasn't my experience as a kid, you know.
• 30:51
  Speaker A: I think I would argue though that your early stuff was authentic for who you were at the time because of.
• 30:56
  Speaker B: Course you won the battle.
• 30:59
  Speaker A: Rappers, you were. You were aggressive, you are drinking and doing stuff. So I think it was obviously it's like, it's like everything that's a slightly, slightly exaggerated at times. But yeah, the early stuff was amazing and the. We should actually give a shout. The album not funded by Creative Scotland.
• 31:18
  Speaker B: Is out in Friday as indeed. I. I just managed to get a few. You know what it's like with these online distributors, New Man. It's like a back and forth for days and days on the most stupid things. But luckily it was all just related to format and stuff. And on the Dewey music, so unclear samples have managed to get through the algorithm. And also I take technically a kind of copyrighted image has managed to get through as well. So that's it in Friday. And I think that'll go good with the Sama stuff. Having that stuff out streaming, it's a.
• 31:55
  Speaker A: Brilliant time for that to commit. Absolutely.
• 31:58
  Speaker B: I'm going to get some clips done with Andrew as well. So we'll have some visual stuff happening, music videos. Too much money, too much time. I'm just gonna do some clips for socials. Do you know what I mean? And that's it.
• 32:09
  Speaker A: That's what. That's what I've ended up doing. Well, we did. We did a great Shouts to Martin Lindy Bank. He did a one for a Fancy man run a bit album Lunch Time.
• 32:17
  Speaker B: And then we had an old man.
• 32:20
  Speaker A: I feel at the end was a bit. Originally came about two years ago, so that's on the album as well. But, yeah, I just found that just, you know, because if you could just do a wee clip and clips, just. They're just miming the camera or walking.
• 32:34
  Speaker B: By with the lyrics, and it's almost as if you're. It's almost as if. If you're gonna do a music video. No, you need to make it more than that. You need to make it like a short film or a mini doc or something that. That. Because just the idea of just people devoting three and a half minutes of their time to just watching you visually do the song that they can just go and listen to anytime they want. Let the same po. It's not. Get the same pool.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: Honest, what's happened to people's brains, man? Because I mean, film.
• 33:05
  Speaker B: See, to be honest, film, I'm not at first, because, see, filming music videos, it's my least. It's my least enjoyable part of the process. I just don't like it. I've never liked it. I don't like being outside. I don't like stoning a bit, you know what I mean? Like, I want. I want to know where the toilet is. I want to be in a warm environment, you know what I mean? So I. I'll get Andrew McKenzie up and we'll do some stuff out in the. In the room, in the studio. We've got a studio in the garden there. And we'll just get creative out there in terms of how we make it look cool, you know what I mean?
• 33:37
  Speaker A: Amazing. And we got Lindsay said EMDR using a row of lights. The results were incredible, especially because it sounded daft at first. The process wasn't easy, though.
• 33:47
  Speaker B: No, it's not easy. And a lot of people kind of can confuse it as if it's a sort of hypnosis. But it, It's, It's. It's. It's got a bit more scientific backing than that. The emdr, as I say, partly it's to do with the therapeutic relationship. Right? So that's why somebody's saying that they did EMDR trained because they did a weekend course. They're not trained and they're not safe to do it. Way, because you're working with trauma. That's basically, you're trying to, it's, it's like plugging in a flash drive. You're trying to move a file from the laptop on a hard long term storage. Right. If you're just working with a two bit cowboy therapist, that file can get damaged, that file can get stuck. And so the, there's protocols involved with EMDR that are all about making sure that you've established a conceptual vision of a safe place for the person so that you can go there if something becomes too disturbing. But people who train for two days say that EMDR qualified. This is one of the many reasons why you need to be very diligent if you're trying to find any kind of support or anything like that online. It's not for everybody, like I say, but part of also the, I believe, and this is just my own kind of conjecture that, you know, and, and medicine, we have the placebo effect, right. Which is evidence of the power of human belief. Right. So the placebo effect can account for someone given basically a sugar tablet and then their headache going away because they think they've taken a painkiller. And I think when it comes to any mental health modality, then if you're invested at a deep level, I think that that similar effect would increase the likelihood that, that it would work. So if you go in skeptical, the chances are there'll be resistance. But if you go in wholeheartedly, you have a good therapist and you really commit to the process, then I don't see how it can do any harm.
• 35:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, the good therapist is because of the day. Even if, even if it wasn't, even if it's a placebo, you're still engaging with a therapist on a higher level than you would be if you're just talking. And also the tapping things have been proved. I've been, I've heard that for years. Like, you know, it goes along with things like, you know, look at, look for a thing. Was it look for things. Find the smell, find a sight. Do you know what I'm talking about? That one?
• 36:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. And these, these are just kind of grounding techniques a lot of the time as well. And they're about bringing your awareness to something other than the narrative in your head, which is where a lot of the pain lies for us, irrespective of what happened. You know, there's the physical, a psychological reality of what happened. But then there's the story that we tell about what the person's intentions were. You Know, I always use the example of like, if I'm walking into a room that you're in, Mark, and I open the door and I hit you, the door. The physical impact of the door hit me, hurts, but you know, it was an accident. But if I walk into the door and I hate you and then I laugh and you feel that I'm meant to hit you, then the impact physically still the same, but there's a psychological wound because you're like, what the was that all about? Do you know what I mean? And so the more serious the trauma, the more potential there is for us to go down these wormholes and speculate as to what the motives and culpability of other people were. And sometimes a lot of pain lies there long term. And a therapist can help us to take out the stuff we don't need or the stuff we can never know and reframe it in a way where we can begin to re. Educate our nervous system that most of the time we're safe. And that when there's things in the environment that remind us of a traumatic event, usually that's just the trauma. And it's no, we're no unsafe. But it takes a long time. And like I say, you need to be really committed to it. And a lot of people, sadly, their baseline is trauma. They've never looked at it. So they think that that's how life feels. And that's the saddest thing, you know, if you ask them, how do you get on in life, what you up to? What they'll describe as a bunch of coping strategies that they've confused with a personality or personal preferences. Their whole life is built around keeping themselves comfortable. And they're very resistant to doing anything that pushes beyond those boundaries because it's so hard. You know what I mean?
• 38:10
  Speaker A: And who's, what's a, a way how to regulate your nervous system in general? Exercise helps. Breathing is good. Who would have thought? Remember to breathe. That's a good one. Is there a, is there any, any steps that you take to try and keep on top of that?
• 38:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, if, if, if something disturbs me, I mean, I'm, I'm, I've. I've had maybe like maybe six months of a pretty good, good stability in terms of, of just. For me, part of it was recognizing that when I felt a level of disturbance, sometimes there was behaviors that I would then engage in that I felt were necessary but actually make it worse. And so paradoxically, as much as sometimes the trauma is not caused by you, you Actually make it worse for yourself in terms of how you respond to certain discomfort. So for me, that may have been forgetting to eat, you know, or staying up very late or conducting my own kind of, like, my own behaviors where I think I'm keeping myself safe by trying to stay abreast of all this. Different types of. All these different types of things when I. So I'm just exhausting myself and banging my head against a wall and. And then also in terms of just, like, physically, it's like. It's like. What I realize is that when. When the feeling happens, what then happens? As the mind comes in and starts telling your story about why you've got that feeling? But actually, that story. That story usually is some version of a story that you've been telling yourself since you were a kid, but it just changes based on the context. But the root subtext of it's always the same. So for me, it would usually just be, you can't trust anybody. You know, nobody's safe. I'm gonna get hurt. And so whatever the narrative was that you start to. You start to. You start to try to get into the habit of feeling the. The traumatic thing, kind of stirring up a wee bit, noticing the brain and then just breathing through it, you know, or getting yourself busy doing something else. And actually, kind of, strangely, as much as a lot of the guidance that people get online is that if you feel triggered or you're at risk of being triggered, you need to move away from it and be in and not expose yourself to it. Actually, the trick is to lean into the thing and breathe through the thing when you're ready. Because that's what teaches your body that anytime you get that we twinge of paranoia or anxiety or pain, that you don't need to let it rob you of your entire day or week or sometimes month, you know.
• 40:52
  Speaker A: That said, I've actually just remembered that I heard someone else talking with something similar. And I've just remembered that one of the things is, like, moving your eyes up and then. Or something, which actually ties in with that emdr. So I think it's just like a reset. It's a physical reset or something like that as well.
• 41:07
  Speaker B: It does, it does.
• 41:09
  Speaker A: But you mentioned trigger warnings, so I always, like, always, like, when we get back to trigger warnings, and it. It's because you're talking about. Is it Blue Bag Life? The Premiere.
• 41:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 41:20
  Speaker A: And, you know, there was a trigger warning before the Q and A and stuff like that. And I. I think it's. It was. It was good listening to that because obviously, you know, I had a lot of trauma there. Certain things that would. I suppose, like trigger warning wasn't a thing. So I just had to. I. I had mo. Certain things that would kind of make me win. Sh. It win. I just kind of. I kind of pretty much go over it by just like going into it, just not, you know, just being prepared for it.
• 41:50
  Speaker B: But. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 41:54
  Speaker A: To me, anecdotally. To me it's definitely. It could have been an actual thing that would have. Could have really been a thing I had to avoid all the time. Like getting into, you know, an actual phobia or something of something that could. But yeah, not so much in. Not any word much anymore. Angela says lean into it. Lean into it. Go for Angie. How do. How does. So this is your first friend show that I've actually not seen because I was. I was all over the place where my. Traveling the world in a moon coat, suffering in a moon boot. Saw this. But so I missed the show. So I'm. I'm buzzing to see it. It's the Glasgow version. So for anyone, it was a. It was a fringe show, a critically claimed friend show in August and you're bringing it to Glasgow on Sunday, November 23. You've chosen the venue Ivory Blacks because Kelvin gave you your first shot in a microphone.
• 42:51
  Speaker B: And last year's. The album launch went so well last year as well, you know, so it just. It just made sense to go back there. And I like the intimacy of the venue, the familiarity and just dealing Dylan McKelvin and this and the staff there. It's just quite a bit easier and quite a bit more, I would say, pleasant than. Than just rolling up at a venue where you've got no prior relationships with people. And it's very kind of industry minded. Sometimes I'm just. No. And that sh. Do you know what I mean?
• 43:22
  Speaker A: Kelvin, you just send him a text, he checks a calendar and it's done and then that's it. A. Yeah, there's. There's no. No surprises with Kelvin. To Kelvin. And also we decided to do it, make an early start just because we're all getting a bit older. And it seems to me like every time we do a Sunday gig, the earlier you're on, the better. Like we. When we played the bars for Soapy Festival, I was. I was actually worried because we were on quite early. It was about 11. We're supposed to be scheduled, but I think it actually went in our favor because a lot of people, you know, if they've Got what the next day or whatever you can commit, watch the show and you can be home by yeah, 8 o', clock, 9 o' clock and then, and if you don't want to do that, I think we could, I think Kelvin's just going to let us just play some tunes anyway. So maybe just stay in, see what the people can decide if they want to stay a bit longer.
• 44:13
  Speaker B: Well, exactly. My plan is to kind of, you know, do. I've got Becky coming to do support and she's doing a kind of strip back acoustic set with some other musicians and get, getting. She's, she's using it as an opportunity kind of prepare for her tour that's coming up next year. So it seems like it's a. Be a perfect environment for that. And, and given the themes of the show and the kind of vibe that I want to create, I think that that sort of aesthetic will lend itself. Well, we're setting the scene and kind of setting the table and then we'll have the, the, we'll have the one hour or so show. Obviously we're having a bit extra time and not having that rapid fire turnaround at the Fringe. I might have a wee bit more time to take the ball for a walk if the opportunity presents itself, but it's not going to be much longer than an hour. Then we'll break, then we'll come back for a one hour kind of Q A engagement with the crowd and then, and then after just have a kind of a, a sort of book signing but also kind of debrief decompressing, you know, an hour to chill and chat because a lot of things come up for people with a show that is quite hard hitting and, and unfortunately the friends, there's no really the facility to have that deep, that sort of after care if you will. So I thought because it's a Glasgow show and a lot of people were on at me for not having a Glasgow show during the Fringe, I thought I'll give a Glasgow show and also I'll give a, I'll do a unique one off format just for the trips and, and hopefully that will get, get people to come out and, and, and, and at that, at that 5:00pm, you know, have four doors, 5:00pm kickoff time. I think it gives people a bit of flexibility as well to get up the road and stuff because I know that that's what I appreciate these days, having having re ones and stuff like that.
• 46:06
  Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's a, and it's a. So you don't normally, you don't normally like hanging a bit too. I think you see that in your book about three times or at least three days. I turned up just before my set and I left just straight after it kind of thing.
• 46:19
  Speaker B: So yeah, especially that's especially so with the, you know, later on gigs or festivals and stuff like that. I don't mind so much, you know, if, if Becky's there or maybe one of the kids are with us then we can, we can make a wee event of it, you know what I mean? But if I'm on my own and it's late on usually, you know, hanging about when everybody's just getting wild, I've just learned that it's, it's no machine. Obviously I check in with people. I'm not about it, you know what I mean? I stopped by and say hello to folk and catch up with people. But I think most people who know me understand that that's just the way I love my life now, you know.
• 47:00
  Speaker A: Of course Angel's asked for a ticket link. I put the ticket link in the comments. If you listen to audio podcast there'll be a link in the. The info Marie says. Any Irish dates yet?
• 47:11
  Speaker B: We're working on it. I'm technically, I'm technically, I've not officially announced it yet. I'm planning to officially announce it at the event but we're working on a bunch of dates for next year and I want to get an island day in there. I keep getting asked to come and do something but unfortunately somebody's got a book may or somebody's got to make themselves known for me to do that. I've obviously done events over there but they've been more kind of sitting conversation, typical book festival things. I've got a thing over in Belfast in December which is more of a keynote kind of scenario, but it would be great. And then, you know, I think we're going to try and hit some places that I didn't hat in 2023 and, and I just, just, just my whole hang is I just want to get back to the momentum that I had then. You know what I mean? I was, I was, I was, I was making good decisions. Things were, were, were I was, I was doing, doing good. Then, you know, life happens and you get knocked off course a wee bit. So the idea getting a tour together for next year is just to, to get back up there and, and try and make a habit of, of touring and always keeping it simple. Do you know what I mean? It's really just me and my laptop and that Just makes.
• 48:36
  Speaker A: Can I went just for people that maybe don't have. Haven't seen the show yet because we kind of just glossed over what the actual show is. What can people expect for the. Because obviously some people know you as Loki the rapper. Someone people know you for your poetry background, your talking background. So what is from Initial conflict.
• 48:56
  Speaker B: It's a blend of all of these things where it really tries to. It tries to echo the structure of the book in terms of taking the audience on a journey. But I would say that there's more humor in the show because we're live audience in the room with you. You can take certain liberties tonally because there's a certain level of good faith and trust as because you're in the room. But also it's more multimedia. It probably it's multimedia in the way that Poverty Safari Live was. There are, there's musical cues, there's. I will wrap certain bits in it. Some of it is comedy, some of it is. Is literally just feels like I'm doing a reading out of the book. So in terms of the actual form, it shifts and changes about like you know, a person's narrative about their own experience changes. But I think, I mean Becky helped me a lot in terms of encouraging me to be a bit more ambitious with having certain videos displayed in the background and photographs sometimes as it says getting kind of close to the wire. I'll, I'll, I'll. I'll revise down what my ambitions are because I need the simplicity in order to be able to kind of focus and get the thing over the line. But the sort of stuff that freaks me out, Becky can knock it together and in a couple of hours. Do you know what I mean? And then Conscious came in and provided some original ambient music for a certain quite hard hitting part of the show. So I think that the show will take the audience on a journey in terms of much like the book, it constantly gets the audience comfortable in a certain vibe and then pulls the rug and goes haha. That's not actually what's happening troops. Do you know what I mean? And no matter how many times you do that, the audience is never quite used to it happening. It's always a surprise. And that sort of tries to reinforce the power of stories and how immersive they are even if someone literally goes like that. Now the story I'm about to tell you something, it's true. Something I've made up for effect. Some it's subconsciously is maybe not as true as it feels to me. So just watch out for the bits. But then the minute you start talking, they're just like, ah, it's a cool story. Do you know what I mean? So if you can get your audience into that place where they're quite malleable, then they can have a really. They can have a. An amazing experience that can, for some of them will feel like a bit of an exorcism after 11 with trauma or a story that's causing them pain because they see somebody else making it safe for them to examine their experience through new eyes. That's the theory, that's the hope. But the Fringe went well and I didn't hear one complaint about the show. Usually if somebody has a complaint, they're quite vocal about it. So I would say it's probably the tightest show I've done. And that's what people who are always honest with our criticism have said to me as well, including Becky and, and I believe them.
• 52:01
  Speaker A: And there's obviously after the French, the Fringe went really well and then you had the sort of a book launch tour. At first I wasn't really sure what was going on because it was Frankie Boyle and Mari Black and Nicholas Sturgeon and you were kind of. So there was all those situations there interviewing you. And what was that like?
• 52:21
  Speaker B: I mean, it was. Well, first of all, it was announcing. It was quite a negative experience, actually. Obviously it's people in London who are making the decisions or who are pitching the ideas to me. And all of those figures in London and the London literary world are, are just like no brainers. Obviously I've done stuff with Frankie before, but I. This is a cultural climate that's quite different. But what I realized was there's no many public figures that you could partner up with. It were me in some way seen as the worst people who ever existed by a small faction of. On terminally online people. And while I don't mean that in a dismissive way about some of the, the, the, the issues that people might have with some of the opinions of, of, of Sturgeon or Frankie or marijuana, I realized actually, you know, it makes sense for me to do these events. It's generous of each of them to give up their time to support my work like that. That's them showing me a level of respect. And for me to get all caught up about getting called a prick 60 times a day for a week, you know, it's kind of a symptomatic of maybe just being online a wee bit too much sometimes. The events were great. They were all Packed to capacity and. And each person had a totally different angle in terms of the interview, which meant that had a. I had quite a pleasant experience each time. It wasn't that repetitive way that it can get sometimes. And obviously it was just cool to meet these folk. Obviously I've met Frankie and Nicola previously, but it was. It was just nice to kind of get a chat with them and stuff before the event and. And it humanizes people in a way. Sometimes I think if you're online too much, you can. You can forget.
• 54:16
  Speaker A: Got some comments? If you got. Got. Angela's got a ticket. Shouts Angela. Nice one. Nice T. Fringe. Do you get. Do you. You do you start getting obsessed with checking your daily ticket sales or the somebody tell you what your daily ticket sales is?
• 54:34
  Speaker B: I. I like the. The standard. Good, because they give you the link and you can just check all the information that you need. The information is important because if you've got certain days that are quieter, you can target a promotion for them. You can get specific graphics done or things cut in order to just pull attention to that. During the fringe, typically it's your kind of Wednesday and Thursday shows that will tend to be a bit quite quieter. But this, this year, I had. I think this is one of my best runs. I got over a thousand punters in over the 13 days. And that was with. I didn't have any kind of. I didn't pay a publicist rate and there was no pluggers involved. Do you know what I mean? Obviously, if I had. If you invest in a plugger and you get that national media coverage, then you can, you can double that. But the thing is, what you make double in it goes to the plugger. If they're any good, they're hitting you for quite a considerable fee, you know what I mean? So I've always kind of found that actually the level that I'm at, as long as I'm constantly on it and making sure that all the bases are covered, then I can get more of a return and. And be in a simpler, smaller room. And so I do check the tickets daily and there is a certain anxiety about it and sometimes you do feel like it's a referendum on your personality. But the thing is that I've got to remember. The thing I've got to remember, Mark, is the sort of numbers that I would find disappointing are the sort of numbers most artists would be grateful to have turning up at a show. And it's amazing how quick you can forget that. Do you know what I mean? You're sitting at like 600, 700 tickets and you're in an existential crisis. And actually if you've hurt that, then you've already, you're already making a profit and it's more than a show.
• 56:25
  Speaker A: We'll be playing to six or seven people at a show. If they're lucky.
• 56:31
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 56:32
  Speaker A: Every single person goes on the show, says that they're never doing the fringe again and then they just do it. I think you said, even you said that this year, didn't you? You think you're probably going to rethink it, but then you probably do it and then, and it's, it's re.
• 56:44
  Speaker B: It's rethinking it in terms of the, the level of stress that's involved if you don't live there for the, for your run. So see the travel back and forth every day, the day in a show, the trains. Luckily this year I think Scot Rail were really on top of it all and, and most days went off without much of a hatch and that was great. But I. That there is a certain mental labor that's involved where, that you need to kind of recover from. So it's natural at the end of, of our run to feel a bit. Even if it's gone well, you're a bit low and you're readjusting a civilian life after being in a bit of a bubble. So that's when you will hear people complaining and mourning or getting some stuff off the chest. But also there are some new issues that, that I'm lucky. I can, I can, I can afford the upfront costs associated with putting a show on. And because of the deal that I have with the stand, I don't have to pay them up front for hiring a venue that all comes off the back end. So as long as I get enough pointers in, then that's all covered and I just get my settlement at the end. But there's all different types of deals and contracts that people can get involved in where they have to pay for their accommodation, which is going to be a couple of grand minimum and that will be 11. A cupboard with a toilet. Anna. And then obviously there's the French premium on top of the Edinburgh premium, which means your coffee, your water, everything that you could possibly buy, taxis, everything is, is much deer than pretty much anywhere except London. So over the course of it, the running costs are just significant and it just means that. It means when you're walking around there, you're getting a sense, you know, it's, it's very middle class. It's a lot of privately educated artists and that's fine. They do great work and I don't mean to dust them when I say that but in Scotland we've got this thing where we like to trade on this idea that anybody can get a shot at things and that. That we've got a commitment to social equality and social justice that maybe is lacking down south when in practice there's a lot of people I know that have dropped it because the risk is too great and the payoff is is not big enough.
• 59:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds a lot. Okay Even I'm at the stage right now where I'm seeing naughty festivals next year. I'm saying I'm not doing any festivals next year year at all but it's only. It's only was November now maybe I mean it maybe I mean it this thing maybe you mean we'll see it's been great to us to do Darren and I say good luck with the album launch and hoping to pick up a copy of your book soon. Sounds like a great laugh. Laughing along with the hoops and huddles of young life with mental health insecurity and Angela's living with trauma Deb. Yeah Angela, good to see you out. See you at the gig. It'll be good. It'll be good to see you there. Well, thanks for getting a ticket and Dr. Ghost Boy. Hi guys. Interesting stuff. Keep on keeping on. Nice one. So I. That's. That's just about an hour anyway D thank you very much for your time.
• 59:52
  Speaker B: And yeah, absolute pleasure.
• 59:54
  Speaker A: Get to the trauma industrial complex ivory Blacks on 23rd November early start 5 o' clock 1 hour performance 1 opportunity support from Becky Wallace now we meet and greet after it sheltered listening.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker B: We're going to get a ticket now. Brilliant.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker A: And the book is out. It's on audiobook as well. I got it. I listened to Spotify the Bad Guys I threw but go to a local bookshop if you can and well so we've got the album. This is the 23rd you get the.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker B: Album moving on the streaming I. And I'll say. I can say say this I can say this the. The streaming edition of the album has a different track list. It's a be but different so obviously if people want the the full proper experience then they still have to go to the band camp and buy it. So I pulled a couple of tracks off but actually this version, much like the vinyl edition, it plays in a different way. It's a we back M to the point and also I've added Run to it, which is a song that was originally written for this album, released in, in along with don't jump in in 2019. So the album opens differently and also I have added a track that I recorded with Superman on the Beat, the, the track Things I Must do that's been added into the track list. So the album's still sitting about the same run time, but it'll play a wee bit different. And, and, and I'm hoping that, you know, it'll be good for people coming in for the first time as well as people who are familiar with it, but maybe want a bit of a different experience. So that's Droing Friday and I'm assuming.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker A: That the copyright image is not funded, but is this the Creative Scotland logo? But if they sue you, they're just, they know what, the follow up album's going to be sued by Creative Scotland.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker B: No, they won't. I mean, obviously they know it's out there. But I, I mean the hang is. I mean I might know that, you know, once this kind of cycle's done and the things that I'm streaming and, and all that waters under the bridge, then, you know, as, as myself, Darren McGarvey, I'm no adverse to maybe going down a public funding route for a project and seeing what I can do where when I'm not feeling that every penny counts quite as much as sometimes when you're funding your own stuff, you know, getting access to certain things that sometimes are just a wee bit beyond me because my skill set is kind of fixed to what it is. So who knows, you know what I mean? I'm sure, I'm sure if I got a funding application into them, then I have as much chance as anybody else of it being approved. I've always felt that they owed me some money, to be honest, Mark.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker A: I think they did. I think they did 100%. I just mentioned Superman in debate, so before we go, he's. You're up against him for the. The Best Hip Hop in the Summer Awards.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, man. And cryptic as well. Like they're, they're, they're homies. But the thing is, I mean it's, it's such a, it's not a small community, it's a big community, but it's also a close knit community. So it's been, it's rare for people who are, are nominated to know. No know some of the other people that are on it, but everybody's a good sport, you know, I mean, I'm just happy to get the nod because all the work that I put into the record and you know it'll be a nice wee night for the trips as well. I'll probably get some of the boys up and they can come and make an absolute nuisance of themselves and a formal music industry environment.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker A: You'd rather just be rapping anyway, wouldn't you? You've said that before.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker B: I, I it would be much simpler if I could just rap all this.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker A: Nonsense you have to do just to make a hip hop album. So it's a well deserved nod. It's a cracking album. Not from the Scotland. Go and stream it in Friday. If you can't wait till Friday, go and buy it in band camp now and go and check it out. So final comment we got it's such a great record. The album covers one of my favorites. So iconic says Kalo Disco. Cheers.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker B: Thank you man. Shout out to notorious gasoline company on.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker A: That patreon.com you call that radio if you want to support the show. And yeah I I'll see you on I'll see Ivory Black Star and on the of November. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Take easy D. Ciao. See you later.