Latest / Drive with John Perlman / IEC partners with social media companies to combat false election information

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IEC partners with social media companies to combat false election information · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Drive home with John.
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  Speaker 2: Perlman on 702.
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  Speaker 1: Let's walk the talk.
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  Speaker 3: Well, at nine minutes to five, let's talk about these
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  Speaker 3: digital platforms, but perhaps in a rather more serious vein
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  Speaker 3: and look at an agreement that has been reached, a
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  Speaker 3: partnership agreement between the Independence Electoral Commission on the one
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  Speaker 3: hand and major companies, Google, Meta, Microsoft, TikTok, and then
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  Speaker 3: an important nonprofit organization, Moxie Africa. that has been working
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  Speaker 3: in this space for many, many, many years and over
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  Speaker 3: many elections. The aim of this is to ensure the
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  Speaker 3: integrity of election information and crucially to deal with disinformation.
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  Speaker 3: This ahead of 4 November when we all go to
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  Speaker 3: the local government election polls. So what is the agreement saying? Crucially,
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  Speaker 3: what gives it teeth? Let's welcome to the show William Birdie,
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  Speaker 3: Director at Moxie Africa and very much involved, as I
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  Speaker 3: said earlier, in this process. William Bird, welcome and thanks
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  Speaker 3: very much for your time. What has everybody agreed to
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  Speaker 3: do and why do you think it might help?
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  Speaker 1: Good afternoon.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it'll help because the IEC has introduced
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  Speaker 2: the disinformation code for political parties and candidates. And that's
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  Speaker 2: because they cover those things. They didn't really have anything
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  Speaker 2: that then speaks as much and as directly to the
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  Speaker 2: platforms themselves. And so really what this is an attempt
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  Speaker 2: to do is an attempt through what we're calling a
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  Speaker 2: framework of cooperation to ensure that we all kind of
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  Speaker 2: work on the same page, so to speak, that if
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  Speaker 2: there are problems, the IEC can address them with the platforms,
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  Speaker 2: they can act quickly. It's starting really to try and
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  Speaker 2: get them to make some meaningful kind of commitments to
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  Speaker 2: trying to ensure that on their platforms there's a greater
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  Speaker 2: commitment to you know, more accurate, credible information and that
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  Speaker 2: where their platforms are being abused, that they act and
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  Speaker 2: that they act swiftly on that information.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure those things will make a difference, but
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  Speaker 3: I wonder if there are some things that we need
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  Speaker 3: to accept will be harder to control. For instance, I
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  Speaker 3: would think that political parties or operatives within those parties
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  Speaker 3: will know that they can post something, get wrapped over
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  Speaker 3: the knuckles, but kind of once it's out there, do
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  Speaker 3: these platforms have a way of making sure that every manifestation,
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  Speaker 3: in other words, just to use an old concept, every
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  Speaker 3: single retweet is also flagged and removed. Or might you
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  Speaker 3: have political parties saying, yeah, sorry, we didn't mean to
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  Speaker 3: do it, but hey, it's beyond our control now.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so look, for the parties, that is covered by
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  Speaker 2: the code. And they can't be as flippant about it
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  Speaker 2: as that, because if they are, the IEC can take
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  Speaker 2: them to the electoral courts. And the electoral court, because
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  Speaker 2: it's covered by the same things as the standard code,
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  Speaker 2: it means that they can, you know, in some instances
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  Speaker 2: they can levy heavy fines, there's actually criminal sanctions against them,
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  Speaker 2: and in the most extreme instances, they can deregister the
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  Speaker 2: political party. So I think that, and what we've seen
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  Speaker 2: certainly over these elections since this code has been introduced,
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  Speaker 2: is that what it's doing is it's making parties all
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  Speaker 2: kind of watch each other's social media a lot more
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  Speaker 2: closely and then actively try and report on what the
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  Speaker 2: other one's doing. Now, to some degree, that's a bit of,
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  Speaker 2: you know, this one says that we're nasty and this
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  Speaker 2: one says we're nasty. But that actually it's starting to
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  Speaker 2: get them to know that they're each watching each other.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that that's actually on balance been a
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  Speaker 2: good thing. What you want the platforms to do, of course,
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  Speaker 2: is that where we, for example, or through partners who
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  Speaker 2: are doing like digital forensic analysis are able to say
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  Speaker 2: there's a pattern of abuse here. There's a pattern of
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  Speaker 2: bad actors who are, maligning parties or undermining the IEC's
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  Speaker 2: integrity or the integrity of the elections, that they don't
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  Speaker 2: just act on that particular content, but that they identify
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  Speaker 2: what's going on and take action on it. And that's
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  Speaker 2: what this framework seeks to do is to sort of
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  Speaker 2: say beyond the party's what are the platforms themselves going
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  Speaker 2: to commit to?
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  Speaker 3: And William Bird, I understand there's a new set of
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  Speaker 3: channels through which people who are unhappy can complain. Just
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  Speaker 3: spell those out for us and give us a little roadmap,
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  Speaker 3: if you will.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the IEC under the disinformation code is designated
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  Speaker 2: Real411 as a public complaints platform. So if people see
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  Speaker 2: content that they are If they think it's either disinformation
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  Speaker 2: or hate speech or incitement to violence, they report it
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  Speaker 2: on there. Now, the advantage of that is that this
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  Speaker 2: is a South African independent-run platform, and it means that
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  Speaker 2: if you report something now, for example, to one of
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  Speaker 2: the current platforms, it doesn't get reviewed in terms of
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  Speaker 2: our constitutional principles. It gets assessed in terms of community
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  Speaker 2: guidelines that are set up in North America or Ireland
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  Speaker 2: or wherever.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Whereas the real foreign one is a South African-based platform.
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  Speaker 2: The same content gets assessed regardless of the platform. In
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  Speaker 2: other words, you don't have this crazy scenario where some
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  Speaker 2: things are okay on Meta but not okay on X
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  Speaker 2: or vice versa. This is about ensuring that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: whoever is there that that's reported and it is addressed
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  Speaker 2: within our constitutional framework because these are our elections.
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  Speaker 3: So just to be absolutely clear, and you'll correct me
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  Speaker 3: if I make sure that I'm giving people the right direction,
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  Speaker 3: you can download an app called Real411, and then you
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  Speaker 3: can go to a website called real411. org. za, and whichever of
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  Speaker 3: those two you use, you'll be guided to where you
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  Speaker 3: can make your complaints and give you some parameters on
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  Speaker 3: what might happen next.
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  Speaker 1: Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And in fact, there's also a WhatsApp number that if
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  Speaker 2: you want to do it, you can report it through
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  Speaker 2: a WhatsApp bot. You can also check if you see
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  Speaker 2: content that's there, particularly if it's a political ad, for example.
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  Speaker 1: You can check if it's actually.
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  Speaker 2: A real political advert or if it's made up and
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  Speaker 2: then you can report it. So we're trying to make
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  Speaker 2: it as easy as possible for the public to identify things.
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  Speaker 2: and for action to be taken. Because if they report something,
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  Speaker 2: so if you or anyone reports content and it's identified
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  Speaker 2: as disinformation, the platform will then be asked to act
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  Speaker 2: on that in line with their community guidelines. That might
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  Speaker 2: be either taking it down or depending on what their
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  Speaker 2: sanctions are against that user. And it's also shared immediately
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  Speaker 2: with the IEC. So anything that goes into REEL 411,
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  Speaker 2: the IEC is oversight of, Yes. And they can then
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  Speaker 2: determine what actions they want to take, particularly if it's
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  Speaker 2: a referral to the electoral court.
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  Speaker 1: And the WhatsApp number 0600-8800-00. Have I got that right?
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  Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but I will send it
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  Speaker 2: to you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, send it to us and we'll… And they can
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  Speaker 1: put it out for public consumption. I'm just looking at
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  Speaker 1: the IEC statement.
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  Speaker 2: I've just forgotten it. That's the IEC's number.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: For that particular thing, the Real411' s number is slightly different.
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  Speaker 2: And I will give it to you. I'll share it
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  Speaker 2: with your producer now.
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  Speaker 1: Fabulous.
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  Speaker 3: And we'll share that with the listeners. Thank you, William Bird.
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  Speaker 3: Joining us, he is director at Moxie Africa. Sounds like
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  Speaker 3: a good initiative to me. It's not going to deal
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  Speaker 3: with everything. But if you keep at these things and
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  Speaker 3: narrow down the space for abuse, I think you've got
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  Speaker 3: to see some benefits.
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  Speaker 1: I'm taking a very positive view of this.
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  Speaker 3: 702 Drive.