Latest / Drive with John Perlman / DG Murray Trust to argue in ConCourt extension of trading times will fuel binge drinking, harm economy

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DG Murray Trust to argue in ConCourt extension of trading times will fuel binge drinking, harm economy · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Well, let's, having canvassed the views of two of my colleagues,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: get to that story that I was highlighting. The DG
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Murray Trust is going to appear before the Constitutional Court,
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  Speaker 1: and they're going to argue that the permissible trading hours
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: for the consumption of alcohol are simply too wide, too generous,
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  Speaker 1: and it is that generous allowance of alcohol selling that is,
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  Speaker 1: in their view, an affront to the Constitution. to human rights.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to be a very, very interesting case. And
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  Speaker 1: in fact, they were involved in a case in the
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  Speaker 1: Northern Cape High Court, which suggested that, in fact, provinces
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  Speaker 1: have a constitutional responsibility to protect public health and safety
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  Speaker 1: by limiting when alcohol can be sold. This after the
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  Speaker 1: Northern Cape Gambling and Liquor Act of two years ago
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  Speaker 1: actually extended liquor trading hours in that province. So let's
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  Speaker 1: get into the issues and welcome to 702 Drive, Kashifa Ainsa,
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  Speaker 1: who is project lead for Rethink Your Drink. It is
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  Speaker 1: a project of the DG Murray Trust that aims at
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  Speaker 1: alcohol harm reduction. Ms. Ainsa, welcome and thanks very much
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  Speaker 1: for giving us your time. What convinces you that if
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  Speaker 1: the hours during which alcohol is sold will actually lead
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  Speaker 1: to people drinking less? Good afternoon.
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  Speaker 2: Good afternoon and thank you very much for the question.
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  Speaker 2: So the evidence is on the side of shorter trading hours.
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  Speaker 2: evidence and modeling that has been done in the Western
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  Speaker 2: Cape has shown that the shorter the trading hours, the
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  Speaker 2: less likely we have harm occurring in communities. That includes
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  Speaker 2: road accidents. That includes interpersonal violence, gender-based violence, and femicide
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  Speaker 2: as well. So what we're calling for, you know, as
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  Speaker 2: part of our advocacy work is for trading hours to
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  Speaker 2: be capped at midnight because the evidence has shown that beyond,
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  Speaker 2: especially when you go 2am, 4am and 6am foreclosure times there,
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  Speaker 2: we're seeing that harm curve exponentially increase due to the
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  Speaker 2: fact that there would be increased consumption in those early
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  Speaker 2: hours of the morning. So the research leans towards midnight
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  Speaker 2: as being the recommended closing time, especially for on-site consumption
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  Speaker 2: for liquor outlets.
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  Speaker 1: So My question, maybe I'll frame it slightly differently. It
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  Speaker 1: seems to me that for many people, this may not
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  Speaker 1: make any difference at all. But for people who already
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  Speaker 1: have a problem with alcohol, both in terms of how
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  Speaker 1: much they drink, how much they drink in relation to
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  Speaker 1: perhaps what they earn, and the behavioral consequences you alluded to, one,
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  Speaker 1: people driving when they shouldn't, for example. Why will this
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  Speaker 1: change their behavior? Because my colleagues gave an example. People
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  Speaker 1: will stock up, keep alcohol at home. People will find
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  Speaker 1: places to drink even if it's not legally. How does
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  Speaker 1: this make people's behavior change? Because I'm not convinced that
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  Speaker 1: it does. I get that there may be less alcohol drunk,
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  Speaker 1: but that may be by people for whom drinking is
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  Speaker 1: not a problem anyway. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So what reducing trading hours does is that it reduces access.
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  Speaker 2: at the site of where the alcohol is consumed, where
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  Speaker 2: often the harm occurs, and then on your way home.
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  Speaker 2: So what you were highlighting in studio just now is important, absolutely,
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  Speaker 2: that people would be able to access alcohol in other
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  Speaker 2: ways or stock up and drink at home, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: But it's not to say that they're not already doing that, right?
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  Speaker 2: Even though we have alcohol outlets that are able to
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  Speaker 2: stay open till 4 a.m., to stay open till 6 a.m.,
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  Speaker 2: people are still doing pre-drinks. People are still stocking up.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we've got Black Friday coming up now where
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  Speaker 2: people are going to be likely stocking up their liquor
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  Speaker 2: cabinets leading up to the December holidays. But what we
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  Speaker 2: aren't saying is that liquor trading times or the reduction
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  Speaker 2: thereof is a silver bullet. It is one measure in
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  Speaker 2: a package of measures that includes dealing with alcohol pricing
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  Speaker 2: through excise taxes, that includes advertising bans, that includes reducing
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  Speaker 2: the amount of outlets that are in communities, especially residential areas.
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  Speaker 2: All of these measures combined, including reducing trading hours, will
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  Speaker 2: have the desired impact, especially on heavy and binge drinking.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of the measures that the World Health Organization
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  Speaker 2: is putting forward.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, carry on. No, no, no, no. Finish your thoughts
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  Speaker 1: and then I'll come in with my question.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah. So what I was just saying is that
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  Speaker 2: the measures that the World Health Organization pushes for, called
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  Speaker 2: the Alcohol Safer Strategies, which are strategies that any country
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  Speaker 2: in the world can adopt to reduce alcohol harm, are
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  Speaker 2: not measures to eradicate drinking amongst people who already drink
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  Speaker 2: moderately or low amounts of alcohol. They are specifically designed
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  Speaker 2: to be implemented so that they can impact alcohol. heavy
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  Speaker 2: and binge drinking. And so that's what trading hours impact
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  Speaker 2: and all of the other measures impact as well. It's
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  Speaker 2: the heavy and binge drinking curve where a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the harm sits.
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  Speaker 1: You see, the thing that some people would argue, and
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  Speaker 1: particularly people who actually make a living from either producing alcohol,
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  Speaker 1: selling alcohol, or in some way involved in the trade,
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  Speaker 1: and that would be people who deliver alcohol, crates of
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  Speaker 1: alcohol around the country and so on. I mean, this
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  Speaker 1: is an industry and it employs a lot of people.
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  Speaker 1: So anything that in a country that's struggling to sustain
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  Speaker 1: any kind of economic growth, but crucially is struggling to
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  Speaker 1: retain jobs, never mind create them. There's got to be
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  Speaker 1: a very persuasive reason saying that the good outweighs the bad.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure you would accept that, that this is a
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  Speaker 1: legal product. It's enjoyed by many people, myself included, in
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  Speaker 1: a way that I don't believe is harming myself or
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  Speaker 1: anyone else. So with that very much in mind, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you talk, for example, about binge drinking. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: what the recorded experience in the UK was, but I've
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  Speaker 1: lived there on a couple of occasions. In that last
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  Speaker 1: hour before the pubs closed, that for me is when
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  Speaker 1: the binge drinking got underway in earnest, that people drank
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  Speaker 1: as much as they could, those who were inclined in
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  Speaker 1: that way, as much as they could, as fast as
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  Speaker 1: they could. And I'm not convinced that less alcohol was
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  Speaker 1: drunk as a result.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, the data in countries that have adopted shorter
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  Speaker 2: trading hours in terms of numbers like hospital admissions being reduced,
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  Speaker 2: road accidents being reduced, the level of alcohol-related harm in
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  Speaker 2: terms of acute injuries being reduced, so that there is
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  Speaker 2: an impact from the measure in itself. you know, and
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  Speaker 2: I think the concern around jobs, around the economy is.
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  Speaker 1: Sorry, can I jump in now? But before you get
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  Speaker 1: to jobs, because I do want to pick up on
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  Speaker 1: the point you just made, Ms. Ansar. I mean, Would
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  Speaker 1: you agree there are a number of variables that would
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  Speaker 1: determine whether, for example, people drive drunk or go out
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  Speaker 1: onto highways and walk home in a condition where their
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  Speaker 1: judgment is impaired? Would you agree that that can't only
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  Speaker 1: be determined by the amount of alcohol they've drunk and
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  Speaker 1: over what Because that would raise questions about policing, for example,
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  Speaker 1: about levels of corruption when people go through roadblocks and
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  Speaker 1: so on. I mean, there's more than one equation in
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  Speaker 1: this conversation, surely.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, the trading hours and the
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  Speaker 2: implementation of shorter trading hours is nearly only one factor.
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  Speaker 2: There are a lot of other things, including enforcement and policing,
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  Speaker 2: not only policing, but enforcement through liquor boards and other
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  Speaker 2: liquor authorities as well that need to be considered in
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  Speaker 2: the broader picture when we're looking at trading hours specifically,
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  Speaker 2: but also as a whole specifically. reducing alcohol harm. As
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  Speaker 2: I said, again, it's not a silver bullet. It's not
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  Speaker 2: going to make a dent in the kind of harm
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  Speaker 2: that we're seeing in society completely on its own. But
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  Speaker 2: coupled with other measures and especially backed up by decent
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  Speaker 2: enforcement funding for that enforcement as well, we can see
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  Speaker 2: the kind of results that Scotland, Wales have been seeing
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  Speaker 2: in their rates of alcohol-related harm being reduced in those areas.
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  Speaker 1: And just finally, because I did interrupt you when you
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  Speaker 1: were about to respond to the point I made about
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  Speaker 1: jobs and economic activity. Many, many people will call in
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  Speaker 1: and say, my family ran a tavern and they put
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  Speaker 1: me through university.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And the intention for these measures is not to
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  Speaker 2: eradicate anyone's ability to make an income in the legal
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  Speaker 2: liquor sector. What these measures have shown is that when
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  Speaker 2: we still encourage low to moderate alcohol consumption in society...
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  Speaker 2: through these policy measures, those businesses are still able to thrive.
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  Speaker 2: But the opposite end of the coin means that there
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  Speaker 2: won't be a devastating amount of harm happening in communities.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, if we look at it just through the
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  Speaker 2: numbers in our GDP, for example, alcohol harm costs the
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  Speaker 2: GDP 10%, between 10% and 12%. That's the cost to
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  Speaker 2: our GDP. But how much we're making, how much the
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  Speaker 2: alcohol industry is contributing to the GDP is only 3%
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  Speaker 2: to 6%. So we are hemorrhaging money in order to
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  Speaker 2: keep the current status quo in terms of health-related costs,
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  Speaker 2: in terms of costs to recoup the loss of life,
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  Speaker 2: loss of productivity, violence in our communities, violence in our homes,
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  Speaker 2: the impact on children through fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. The
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  Speaker 2: harms are exponential.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks so much. It's a really important debate, and I'd
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  Speaker 1: love to get your views. Thank you to Kashifa Ansah
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  Speaker 1: joining us from the DG Murray Trust. And at that organization,
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  Speaker 1: she's project lead for an initiative called Rethink Your Drink.
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  Speaker 1: They're going to the Concord next month. It's going to
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  Speaker 1: be very interesting indeed.