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Sexual Identity: Do You Actually Know What You Like? · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a sexual identity.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm straight and that's it.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, there's lots of things that you can explore.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's not gonna necessarily make you gay, and it's okay.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: What's up, world?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Browing Paint, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Puppet Chad.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Carlos, theater kid or self-proclaimed corporate puppy.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back, everybody.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: This is uh season three, episode seven.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm definitely getting old.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: So last episode, we talked about religion and spirituality.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Specifically, what happens when you grow up being handed a belief system and at some point have to ask yourself, do I actually believe this?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Or is this just what I was taught to believe?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's a really natural connection between that conversation and what we're talking about today: sexual identity.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't just mean when did you know you were gay, straight, bi, or any other member of the alphabet mafia?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: We're more interested in everything that happens around that.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: What were you taught sex was supposed to mean?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: What were you taught attraction was supposed to look like?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: What made you feel normal?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: What made you feel ashamed?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And at what point did you start figuring out what you actually wanted?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously you and I have had very different experiences with this, but that's what makes this conversation more interesting.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Neither one of us just woke up one day with a fully formed, healthy understanding of our sexuality.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: We had to figure that shit out.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: We sure did.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe more importantly, figure out how much of it was actually ours.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because how much of what we thought about sex, attraction, masculinity, and our own sexuality came from what we genuinely wanted, and how much of it came from other people telling us who we were supposed to be.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: And with that, we present to you vignette number 14, the sex I was supposed to want.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Jake had never thought much about what sex meant to him.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: He'd had plenty of it.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: In college, it was something you bragged about with your friends.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: The more women you slept with, the more successful you felt.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: After college, not much had changed.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Dating apps made it easy.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: A first date could turn into a hookup, and a hookup could become another story to tell his friends.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: He'd always considered himself pretty confident sexually.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: But one night, sitting across from his girlfriend after dinner, she asked him a question that caught him completely off guard.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do you actually like about sex?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jake laughed.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's a weird question.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: She smiled, but no, I'm serious.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: He opened his mouth, but nothing came out.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: He could tell her what he'd done.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: He could tell her what he thought women wanted.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: He could tell her what he thought a man was supposed to want or like.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: But what did he actually want or like?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: He realized he'd spent years thinking about sex as something to accomplish or someone to conquest.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Something that proved he was attractive, that made him feel wanted, or he could check off a list.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: He had rarely thought about sex as a way of being known or feeling connected, being vulnerable, or simply connecting with another person.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly he wondered how much of his sexual identity had actually been his, how much had been shaped by his friends, porn, dating culture, and everything he'd been taught about what it meant to be a man.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jake looked at his girlfriend, and for the first time he wasn't wondering whether he was good at sex.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: He was wondering whether he'd actually ever taken the time to figure out what sex meant to him and what he actually liked about it.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that question felt a lot more vulnerable than any sexual experience that he'd ever had.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Jakey boy.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Jakey Jakey, big mistakey.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's his nickname.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's what his dad called him growing up.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what he learned about sex.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good segue for our first question.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: Chad, I want to know who was your first crush?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Spill the tea.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: My first crush?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting story, and it aligns really well with the vignette, actually.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't really my first crush.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was in kindergarten.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been a pretty chubby kid, and kids talk and do weird things.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember there's this girl named Shelby.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: She was also like a bigger girl.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: The other kids in the class were trying to like set me and her up because oh, like you two fatties will like love each other.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I remember this like very vividly that I was like, why am I supposed to like her?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought it was just really weird.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: She ended up like moving away or whatever, and um, you know, the one that got away.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I remember that clicking that like, oh, this is what people see me as.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it really made an impact on me.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: First quest kiss wasn't until like sophomore of high school.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was so bad, Carlos.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like my first kiss, like I I feel terrible for her.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, no one told me what to do, and clearly we were not on the same page, and it was it was bad.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was just really, really bad.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was like the next week she was like, I'm done.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: No one teaches you how to flow with another person.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you learn that?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Besides watching porn or reading it in books, I guess a lot, like a lot of people read like smut and things like that, but it's like doesn't teach you how to like be with somebody sexually.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so awkward.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's so awkward, and maybe it's just me, I don't know.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: But really, the only way to get through it is through experience.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I always advocate for having a hoe face because you learn so much from doing that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: And like, I think experience really is the only thing that like makes you confident about whatever it is that you're doing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just like the the repetitions.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: The more you do something, the more comfortable you're gonna get with it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: My first crush was probably in like I was like five, so maybe like kindergarten.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it was uh it was one of the boys in in my class.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so at five years old, I remember being really uncomfortable with it.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like I re I remember feeling shame around it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, I know I think I'm not supposed to, but I do at a young age had a lot of conflicting feelings about that.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that at that age, heterosexuality had been reinforced enough into for in my brain to know that like boys should not be with boys or should not be, you know, liking boys growing up in a Latino household, you know, very traditional, like indoctrinated.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, I mean, I just remember at a very young age feeling othered, feeling like I didn't fit in.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: But I I also did have crushes on girls.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: I had the biggest crush on this girl.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: I remember being heartbroken because she did not reciprocate those feelings and like stored my life.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's so interesting.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think at a young age I had to like hold space for both of that, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or or had like try to make sense of liking both, right?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like I was a teenager when I first heard about bisexuality and you know, and what what all of that even is.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so I identify as queer because I think that like that's for me, that feels like a an umbrella term that is that feels accurate.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: I use queer and and gay interchangeably for myself.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm also somebody who really does believe in in like that sexuality is is a spectrum, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Or it's fluid.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: I really buy into the idea that two souls can fall in love with each other.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like again, bringing bringing the spirituality back into it.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: When did you start developing this idea of like you wanting sexual experiences?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I remember growing up and just being like the only way I can describe it is like there's like this just pent-up energy of like wanting to.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like I didn't know like what I needed to do to release this pent-up energy.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when you started masturbating.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, probably soon after, yeah, but um like for some reason, like I like missed sex ed or something.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't understand how that happened.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I remember they did some of it, and then they were gonna like do more in seventh and eighth grade.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then what happened was I moved schools, and so I didn't get like the full thing.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I had to learn what sex was like just on my own, I guess.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember that that was really confusing for me, and yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious if that had anything to do with why you're so you tend to be more reserved about sex.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest reason why I'm so reserved about sex is because I don't feel that someone in my body should be openly sexually free.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: People that look like me in a bigger body are not supposed to talk about their sexual desires or experiences because essentially you're gonna gross everybody out.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, first of all, that's a bullshit.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just being honest.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's I've heard it from men who, you know, talk about women who walk around in like a crop top and they got a big old belly or whatever, and it's like you're you're you're not supposed to wear that, you know.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: So like just things like that, like I don't really feel comfortable doing that because I don't think people want to hear about it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's mostly where it comes from, but it's also like I get so weird about it.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I get so weird.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I remember wanting to go to a sex shop and like be able to like explore stuff, and I was just like so freaked out.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like, I went in and I did my best, but I was just like, I just wanted to leave like so bad.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I feel so uncomfortable.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I felt like there was something bad that was gonna happen.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't want to be laughed at for for something that I wanted to like that I thought was like attractive or like that I was interested in buying or using or wanting to talk about.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just didn't want to be laughed at or something.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like just stupid like immaturity, I think, at that point.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I think it is.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's just immaturity on being able to explore like your sexual identity.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of like heterosexual men, because of the way that I think our society is set up, is like it doesn't really, you know, like the vignette talks about, doesn't really give you a lot of ample opportunity to explore what sex is and means to you and and how you're supposed to make it fun.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like to me, it just felt like a like an act of conquest over the years.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe that's just my experience.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but I I feel like it's a it's a common one.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: I had such a strong reaction to to what you were saying because I feel like everybody's gonna have their own likes and dislikes, you know what I mean?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and like I know that we're we're not going to be for everybody, but there's always gonna be somebody who's who's interested.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's hard for me to believe.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard for me to believe for a long time.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know if you've experienced that feeling of like you are just not someone that is desirable.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: I was definitely not confident growing up, but you know what I mean, like a a teenager and stuff.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: I I always felt like the black sheep of the family.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: I always felt like I had a really bad or long, awkward teenage phase.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly, it wasn't really until like the end of my high school life that I started growing into myself.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I had started, I was 16, 17, I had started working, so I had like money to buy my own stuff, you know what I mean?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so like I had like a glow-up.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: I remember people talking about that at school.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: It I didn't really know how to take it, you know what I mean?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because like I've I've I spent so long almost trying to hide, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or or trying to just like stay behind the scenes or whatever.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, we we were having a similar conversation with with Michelle just last week.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we were talking about pretty privilege.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty privilege.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard of that.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty privilege is the unearned social, economic, and professional advantage that people receive when their appearance matches society's beauty standards.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I can say that I'm confident in the way that I look and and I'm confident in the way that I carry myself.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: But based on this description, like I don't think that my appearance matches society's beauty standards.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I'm understanding what Michelle's saying, I think you get reactions from people based off of how you said it, like how you carry yourself.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're thoughtful, you're kind, you like ask people questions.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like I think that like the way you carry yourself makes people feel very comfortable.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And like you I think you get access and responses like that.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think I've ever had anybody come up to me just off of my physical appearance, ever.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: You're charming because of your personality, you know what I mean?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: And and like like that, that I feel like is what always attracts people to you.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I accept that.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I accept I do accept that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's basically how I got my first like real girlfriend, not the one that I fucked up on kissing like a weirdo.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: But my first like real girlfriend was right after that, like a couple months after.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and so just like over time, I mean, I just kind of I just kind of wore her down.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm just kidding.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I just kind of, you know, my energy and just being able to, you know, interact with her over, you know, many months and just me being genuine and comedic and someone who's helpful and kind.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that's what I that's how I think I get people to like me or become attracted to me is is over time and with that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that doesn't equal like like my sexual identity doesn't come from being liked over time with my personality, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's why it feels so awkward talking about sex, is it's like, okay, I can get them to like me maybe over time if you give me a minute, but then how do I perform sexually?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I don't or how do I seal the deal or I don't know what to say.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do I like take it to the next level kind of a thing?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was not uh easily understood, I think, by myself or many men.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, what okay, what do you do next?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: kind of a thing.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it definitely was extremely foreign.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so when I started dating my like my longer-term girlfriend, basically people found out, according to other people, I was popular, but uh I knew a lot of people, and people found out that I was dating um this girl, and it was during football season, and it was talked about my offensive line coach like overheard people talking about it, and they were just kind of like you know, ragging on me or whatever, and my offensive line coach was like, Frango, you have a you have a girlfriend?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was kind of like, first of all, why is it surprising?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Fuck you.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh second of all, um, yes, I do.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, but but that's kind of like that's kind of what happens, and then he goes, Okay.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, Well, let me um let me give you some advice.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes when she says no, she really means yes.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Send him to prison immediately.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: What the fuck, man?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: And he was working with kids, dude.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, as a high school boy, like I thought that was hilarious, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I was not educated and I was not like, but that like was all told to a group of 15 to 18 high school juniors and seniors.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus Christ.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: From a man that was in a position of authority.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's disgusting.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like pressure to like, okay, that's obviously like that's not technically real, but like, why is he saying that?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it so funny to all these other guys?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do they know that I don't know?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what what it kind of really fucked me a lot, but yeah, talk about feeling pressure.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's the pressure that I felt.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it was just wild, like with a group of men and um, you know, fellow peers and boys in the football team, and then a fucking football coach says that, like at practice, like just offhand in the middle of between like drills and shit.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, dude, it was wild.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: He was a teacher on top of that, too.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, he taught at like a continuation school.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Jail, just jail.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's all I can say, dude.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: What the fuck?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people say that like watching porn is extremely bad for your sexual identity because it gives you a false indication of what sex is supposed to be like and things like that.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious what you feel about that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's absolutely truth to that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because you and I have talked about ED, like in very general or broad terms.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think it's a thing that like there's a rise in ED erectile dysfunction in millennials because of just like years and years of watching porn?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe, you know, there could be a connection there just because of like the amount of content that millennials have consumed up to this point is more than any previous generation at this age.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so we haven't seen a generation consume this much media content before that has reached this age level.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is an interesting um case experiment.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Typically, my understanding of working with this would be older generation who have experienced an ED is there's a balance between it being psychosomatic as well as it being, you know, hormonal and you know, related to age, and just how that affects like your confidence and things like that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then it just kind of continues to perpetuate and get bigger and bigger.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, or not.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or not get bigger.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's very possible.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: Many different factors, but I think like one of them being that we've been watching porn since we were fucking teenagers, and just like the the expectation of like performance and also I think it again, uh watching porn, it's the same thing as like uh with any addiction, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like the dopamine, the dopamine hit.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so like that's I think that's gonna obviously affect the way that you experience and show up in these sexual situations, you know what I mean?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it and it can affect that.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I am a huge advocate for for dick pills because it, you know, I think it I think it works.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: And also just like the reality is that we are getting fucking older, you know.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: So like I it's right.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought about this though.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you think the dick pills are perpetuating this idea of needing to present and perform in a certain way?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a need for it, and I think it's like helpful, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like any with any other medication or things like that, like I think it can be really helpful for like someone's sexual identity to feel that they could still do the thing, you know, and still connect that way.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I'm wondering if this younger generation is gravitating more towards it, not because of actual ED, but is like the fear of like what other people are gonna think or say, or um, you know, you don't perform one time in the bedroom.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Next thing you know, I need to, I need to maintain that performance.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's just kind of perpetuating the problem.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: For me specifically, it's it's different because I don't have one sexual partner, you know, and and so like the expectation to perform is higher.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because like you're you're I'm meeting up with these people for one reason.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: When you when you don't perform or you can't perform for whatever reason, it's disappointing for both parties, I would say.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is so much pressure, man.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: I I will say though, that I think that as I've gotten older, I've learned how to one, advocate for myself and also learn just how to be confident in in who I am, but also like what I can bring to the table.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: And and like if if somebody's not if somebody's not going to accept me for for who I am, then that's not somebody that I want to give my time to.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: But as you said, I mean, the people that you're meeting up with for one reason, they're not looking to accept you for who you are.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell Exactly.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: But but it's it's information like, oh, well, we don't have to do this ever again.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because if it went really well, not even just like sexually, but if it just went well, like how they responded, whether it went well or not, you may want to hit them up again to hang out or whatever.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how sometimes relationships start.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've I've met and have heard plenty of people get married to people that they met on Tinder and you know, things like that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just it it happens, you know.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not gonna be able to do that unless you feel Exploratory with your sexual identity.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that to me is like the biggest thing that I feel many heterosexual men struggle with this is like, I don't know if I am allowed to give, be given the time to explore what I like and what I don't like sexually.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Say more about that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just number one, like men are supposed to know what they want, right?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this idea of even exploring with through trial and error is apparently not sexy and not masculine.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're already entering into the bed womb, um and you're not you you don't know like what you want, then you ain't you ain't shit, and that the other person that you're with is also gonna feel that lack of confidence, and that's gonna be a turn off.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole system is kind of set up to perpetuate the patriarchy of like, well, no, you're already supposed to know what you're doing.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're already supposed to know how to do this.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: But but what about the other side of that of like this this idea that heterosexuality is indoctrinated into us?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: But I feel like I had for a lot of different reasons, but I feel like I had more freedom to explore that and and like, you know, because I I mean at 15, I had my first girlfriend and we were making out behind behind the gym, you know, at at school.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Classic.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, like I I had to experience that to figure out, like, oh, maybe that's not what I like.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I had more freedom to do so.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you say more freedom, do you mean more freedom to experiment like trying if you liked girls?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm talking about freedom of like, what do you like in the bedroom?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: How do you like to sexually connect with somebody?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: I guess for me it's they go hand in hand.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just on a different level, I guess, right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like one is more, I guess can be more public, and another one is more private of what that experience is like, I guess.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're saying?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess I was referring to more like just like in the bedroom, like what your kinks and fetishes?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, kinks, fetishes, what feels good, what doesn't feel good, how do you advocate for that?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's so I think foreign to what a heterosexual man is supposed to do.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're supposed to go in there, do the job, and perform.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where like the pressure comes from and the lack of experience of being able to say, How do I get to connect with my sexual identity?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you mean, sexual identity?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of heterosexual men listening to this podcast, this episode, are gonna be like, I don't have a sexual identity.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm straight and that's it.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's no like, well, like this is kind of how I like to connect sexually.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is what uh makes me feel good.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's none of that explanation.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, I think this is the perfect example of what you're talking about.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is very common in hookup culture.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, please tell me because I I am not um in that culture.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: It never was.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Never will be.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Never will be and never was.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so please uh inform me because it's like uh I'm like I feel like an anthropologist when you're starting to tell me, like, oh yes, tell me about this whole world here.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: One of the first few sort of messages.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you you message somebody, the intention is to hook up, right?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: They say into question mark.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's uh the it stands for like, yeah, what are your likes and and dislikes?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think over time for me, like I I can very clearly lay out what I like and and you know, and dislike or whatever.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And do you just like copy and paste?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes.
• 25:48
  unknown: Okay.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you very clearly know, like this is what it is, dude.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you doing?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's so important to I see it as like being able to curate your experience.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: What better person, what better place to do that with than if you're in a relationship to do that with your partner, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: And and like, but building that together, I think for me it it's it's about like being curious about your not only yourself, but also your partner too, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and being able to meet in the middle of going back to what you said earlier of having that chem, not only chemistry, but sexual, sexual compatibility.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's that for me, it's another one of those things of like life is too short to not have amazing sex in your life.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think it a lot of people may feel uncomfortable talking about that and and may feel discouraged from talking about that or just not even know where to begin to talk about that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think really it's related to pleasure and the lack of ability that I think men in particular allow themselves to prioritize experiencing pleasure.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell So you're you're saying some men have a hard time letting themselves experience pleasure.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if pleasure is a priority in a man's life.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Experiencing joy and happiness and pleasure is not the goal.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's to provide, conquer, you know, protect, and wake up the next day and go to work and shut the fuck up.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: I would argue with that and say that largely men, both gay and straight, and whatever letter of the alphabet you are, are more likely to go after, to seek sexual pleasure and not care so much about their partner's sexual pleasure.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I agree with that part.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we're talking about the same definition of pleasure.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think what you're saying is like, oh, men will go out and just get what they want and they will not care about the consequences.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a part of me that that agrees with that and understands that what you're trying to say.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what I'm trying to say is that's not true pleasure.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not that's not true happiness.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's not you're when you're going and you're like, like you said, they're just going out and getting their needs met and not caring about whether they're they're just looking to bust a nut.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking to bust the nut.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in my opinion, that is not I I do not think that that is actually true pleasure for men.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: When they're just looking to bust a nut, that is not pleasure, in my opinion.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: My opinion is that it's more pleasurable to experience and connect with somebody and be able to have a sexual experience that is mutually beneficial and that you talk about and you're able to explore and have fun and joy.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like the way that you're describing it is I go bust a nut, and that is the pleasure.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is the whole problem that we're talking about here is it's just an ability to conquer and and finish.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing about the experience of it, it's just about the nut.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is not pleasure.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is just reinforcing the dopamine hit of that felt really good for those five to ten seconds.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And let's be honest, it probably only took you five minutes anyways, because uh but in some the that's what that's what makes you seek it again, is because you only allowed yourself to feel pleasure for five to ten seconds.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in my opinion, they're not actually focusing on their needs, they're just focusing on getting themselves over the hump to the next day.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because if if it if you're really focusing on a true need, which is to experience happiness and joy and being able to connect with other people, you would do sex a lot differently being a heterosexual man.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why like me, myself, like and many others, like are so uncomfortable talking about pleasure in relation to sexual identity, because I don't know if I've ever given myself the opportunity to explore how I would even define my own sexual identity.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a little sad.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's supposed to be.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what this conversation is highlighting, is that there's a huge miss here that just like all the other episodes of this season, right?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like like the religious one in our last episode, like for me, I just want to put my head in the sand.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of it's kind of very similar, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is just like it's more of the uncomfortability, not like head in the sand, but it's like, oh, I don't want to talk about it.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like squeamish almost, it's weird because I don't feel comfortable allowing myself to experience like true pleasure.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm a man and I'm thinking about it, like pleasure to me is a uh immature luxury.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what a real man does.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: A real man just goes out and gets it.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: It just goes out and gets it and then goes to bed and goes up, doesn't wash their hands and wakes up the next morning and goes to work with dirty jeans on.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just like that's just the vibe.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like, oh, like what feels good for me, or like, do I enjoy my job?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it even the way I just said it, like I'm mocking it.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think that's how most men think.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's how most heterosexual men feel what I'm describing.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, dude, we should take a page out of the uh the gays, the gays and the hookup culture, because like, dude, we would uh we would feel a lot more uh loose, lack of a better chart.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have to?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have to use that word?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's disrespectful.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I did, I did.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we would uh be a little more loosey-goosey with it, you know?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, there's lots of things that you can explore, and it's not gonna necessarily make you gay, and it's okay.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: How can you learn how to, you know, loosen up?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I can teach you.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: I can teach you.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm glad that we kind of got down to this idea of pleasure.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Being able to explore your sexual identity to me has to be your ability to challenge yourself to allow yourself to experience pleasure.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what makes sexual experiences fun.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're just kind of doing sexual experiences to check a box and uh a little uh slam bam, thank you, ma'am, kind of a thing, um, then uh you're really missing out on some cool life experiences.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: My browing pain would be specifically for heterosexual men that are partnered.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: The way that I see it, being sexually connected or having that sexual chemistry compatibility with your partner is another layer of like true connection with your partner.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: But you can't you can't really do that if you're not opening up, if you're not um experimenting with like with with your likes and dislikes.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: If it going back to the vignette, that's a perfect example, right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like he couldn't answer her fucking question of what is it that you like about sex?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: How old are you, Jake?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: Grow up.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get mad at him.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Jeez, Jake is trying his best, man.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not enough, okay.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm kidding.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was never enough.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's another opportunity for you to be truly connected to your partner.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's a missed opportunity.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just to bring that home more, like you would have to want to prioritize feeling connected.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the big problem with like men's mental health, I think, is just like, when are you gonna allow yourself to to prioritize connection?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's that's what happiness is gonna look like.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, you working harder or hooking up with more girls or whatever you think it is, like that's not it's not gonna fucking do it for you.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get you and and just everybody to just not feel like that and just go, you know, experiment with your cock.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Experiment with what you're working with, you know what I'm saying?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: Take the dick pills if you need to.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Take them.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Don't take them because you feel like you have to or because you but if it if it changes the experience of connection and you talk about it with your partner, like give it a whirl, Jake.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: And also I think that if taking dick pills is what makes you more confident in the bedroom, then then why not?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was saying though earlier, it's like I wonder if that's perpetuating this feeling of like more pressure, you know.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because then, like, what if the pills don't work?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in your head more.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: They'll work.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: They've been working on this shit like it's the cure to cancer, man.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: They they got this down.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: We'll leave you with this closing question.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think you're comfortable with sex and sexuality?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Or are you still figuring it out?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's okay.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay if you are.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you can join us for another episode.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Take it away, Chad.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for joining us for another episode.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be talking about gender identity development.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you learn to understand what your gender is and how that has shaped who you are.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Browing Pains.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: If this episode shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: Pass it on.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at BrowingPains to stay tapped in with the community.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slide into our inbox at growing painspod at gmail.com.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.