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Deep Dive: Visionary and Integrator - How We Actually Work Together (Special Guest: Taylor Yeagle) · Integrity at Scale™

• Okay folks, today we are pulling back the curtain on what it actually looks like when a visionary and an integrator work together, build something together, evolve and grow together. So my name is Dr. Tara Vossenkemper. You are listening to the Culture Focused Practice podcast. And today I have my integrator, one of my favorite people also, but my integrator on with me, taylor . Hello Taylor. How are you? Yay. Oh, you know, there's snow on the ground and that actually makes me really happy. So as long as it's not on the street, no, I wanna be able to exit wherever I am. We're big winter people are my family. We're big fall winter folks, so, um, especially with little kids. I mean, we have young kids, but I think especially with the kids, they're funny. Well, that little, it's snowing. Mm-hmm. That's like, that's fun to watch my daughter's experience because she's ENT now. Yeah. Excited about being outside. Mm-hmm. Do they get freezing hands? She does, and she doesn't care. Theo hates it. He just fucking hates it. Yeah. Okay. She even cares. She like trumps around in her wet boots. She loves it outside. Doesn't care. Yeah. Okay. I was just thinking the other day, actually, this is totally unrelated, but I need to get like snow gear for my kids. Yeah. We don't have any snow gear. We have like coats and gloves, but not like the stuff that doesn't get wet, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They would have much more fun. It's a game changer because then they could go out. They're not complaining. Complaining about being uncomfortable. Okay. So if you're a regular listener or you know anything about EOS or you don't live under a rock, and you've heard the terms visionary and integrator, and so I think there's something missing about what actually happens between a visionary and integrator and what that dynamic can look like in terms of a day-to-day practice, as well as like on a big scale, how this grows over time. Not only how the relationship evolves, but also how the business grows and how these roles shift and change. So this is going to be ideally an unfiltered, just honest conversation about that dynamic. This is the first time I'm doing something called a deep dive episode. So Taylor is my first guest doing deep dives. What that means is that I'm gonna pepper her with some semi-structured interview questions, and we're not gonna do any scenario like I do in the owner's room. We're just gonna talk through these questions about the visionary integrator dynamic. So, are you ready? Let's do it. Yes. Okay. Taylor has been in the trenches of EOS implementation with me. She has been a part of, uh, basically everything. So when Taylor started, which was back in 2021, early 2021, like January, I think 21st of 2021, if I'm remembering. Yeah. Which is funny. That was. I mean hot off the heels of COVID, obviously. And we had attempted EOS unsuccessfully. I had attempted it in the incorrect order. Taylor came on as a client liaison or client care coordinator is the language we use now in essence. Think intake coordinator. Um, I knew right away where I was like, she is gonna, she's great. Like I think we had conversations very early on about you eventually being in a COO type role. So started as a client liaison or client care coordinator. I think within a few months you would transitioned to office manager. Within a few months of that, you transitioned to director of operations. And then from there, it was a couple of years before we both adopted the appropriate language of visionary and integrator. I think that's sort of like in a nutshell, the version of what happened. Yeah. Right. For me, what was difficult is knowing like what I wanted something to look like. This is all the time actually, like knowing what I think will happen or what I want to happen, but not being there so it's not happening yet. And then also not being exactly sure like how it's going to look to get there. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, yeah. When I, I even remember using the language COO with you initially because I didn't wanna use the word integrator because nobody knew what that was and we weren't even running on EOS yet. And so in my mind, like you sort of, I pretty early on, I think you were always going to be the integrator. Like you were always the one that I had in mind for this. I think I'm interested in like your perspective of that process and how things unfolded and just, I don't know, like, I hate saying your, you felt experience, but kind of like you felt experience Yeah. Of. Starting. I remember actually calling you for the interview and being like, wait, why do you want this job that you accepted a position at Taylor's, a licensed clinical social worker. Like she's an LCSW, she's a therapist, a licensed therapist in her state, and she was moving away from therapy and taking an intake coordinator, basically, yeah. Time. Yeah, part-time. Like it was lower pay then than it is now, you know? So it was, I remember being confused also, like, why do you want this, this doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway. Okay, go ahead. Your perspective. I, I wanna know. Yeah. You know, it's interesting framing it from within with the context of like what was happening globally, like what was happening. Like the counseling hub doesn't exist in a bubble and so neither do we. Um, and so that was just such an interesting. An interesting time because I was burnt out. I left a really high stress, incredibly high stress, um, work situation. Um, I just, I had just gotten my license. Um, I was in actually a very toxic workplace and so there was a lot of workplace, like trauma essentially. Um, and my partner was in a similar boat. Um, he was leaving, he was a intensive care nurse, and so he was leaving surgical ICU, which is like obviously like gunshots accidents, but very high stress. Um, very, very sick patients. So we were both in these like very high stress situations. My dad had died not too long before that. So I was in a place where I was just like, I don't wanna do anything. Um, but you need money, so I gotta do something. And. I, this job, this job came along that was like field adjacent. It was still in my, um, you know, you mentioned I'm an LCSW, my bachelor's of master's degrees are in social work. Um, and so I really appreciated that. It was, it just, it met, it met what I was needing at the time. Um, but I think there was a part of me too that was like, this could be something that I could, I could grow with. You know, like if I got a job at the mall, that's not gonna be a long term thing for me, but this is something in my field, whatever. And of course, I think that anyone who comes to work for the hub is drawn in by your voice. And the way that you talk about the counseling hub, it just seems different. And so there was a part of me too that was like, this seems like a role place to work and maybe, maybe a really different experience than the one I've had. So, um, so yeah, that was where I was coming into working. I think it was a very healing experience for me to come in and be in a workplace that was very different than I had experienced, um, professionally up to that point. And there was just like a feeling of it being low stakes too. But I also think, um, I remember sitting on, we were living in our camper when I started working there, so I remember we were living on, um, Andrew's sister's farm and I was literally like sitting on a patio looking over her farm and we were talking this plan. Like eventually, like I feel like we were both kind of tiptoeing around it because like, it's almost like early on in a relationship you don't wanna be like, um, let's get married. I wanna move in together. Yeah, we were both kind of like, I think kind of tiptoeing around, but there was energy there. That was for me about like, I am really passionate about this place, what I've seen about of it so far. And you were like speaking my language, like my master's degree is in social work, but my emphasis is policy couldn administration. So my long-term goal was an ever to be doing direct clinical work. Um, I thought I would be doing it for longer than I did, but my goal was always to do more meso men level work. Um, so I think that spoke to things that I'm passionate about and there was this idea of like, we're gonna work together to, to grow this thing. And that was really upsetting to be a part of, of a growing something. Um, you just have owner, you have more ownership over it and not in a sense of like, I own this, but in a sense of like, I put in work through this thing and I care about this thing. It just, I feel more invested into it. And then it just kind of, I think for the most part, grew really organically from there. Like for me, it felt organic, but I do, there weren't, that's not to say they all weren't, like stumbles or terms of uncertainty or I think that place between deciding, like, I know where I wanna go, but we're not there yet and we're not paid for it yet. Like, that's a, that can be really challenging for a lot of things. And I think for me it brought up like some insecurities about like, is this not happening sooner because you know, you don't trust me or, or you don't think I'm ready. Or maybe I'm like kind of imposter syndrome type things. Um, and I think on the flip side for you, it's a very vulnerable experience to invite something into this thing that you've created and to kind of start to give over pieces of that, that letting go process is really, so let's not say it wasn't without. Struggle. But what I really appreciated, I think throughout was you constantly pushed me and challenged me, you know, I don't like to be pushed and I don't like to be, um, you know, drawn out on things at times. I might want to stew. Um, but you, you drew me out on things throughout that process to help me feel more emboldened to say, Hey, I feel like you don't trust me. What's going on? And that created more vulnerability and more transparency and conversations between the two of this about where are you at, where am I at and where does this thing need to go? Yeah. I think that, um, I, this is totally a side note, but I absolutely forgot that Andrew was doing the ICU nurse be, I like totally forgot about that. What a wild, wild time. Yeah. That would be extremely stressful. I think you said, um, in like during COVID, I mean like during COVID too. Yeah, yeah. There was all, it was just, yeah. Ooh, traumatizing is how it feels. Um, there's something you said that feels like, um, oh, fuck, what was it, Tara? There are different levels of the process too. I think this is a good segue into the next question, but I, I feel like there's something like hitting on this, the thing that we want, like there's this, you know, us tiptoeing around something in the beginning and then also, which does feel fair and accurate, and it is, it is vulnerable to, I think from a visionary perspective and, and not visionary at the time, but still like, this thing remains true. Like this, you know, is a constant, but maybe from a, a leadership perspective or when you're going to bring somebody on and you're, you know, you want them in a high, high touch, high trust, high responsibility position. I don't know who feels comfortable handing something over quickly and in bulk. And also, I, I constantly think about that desert shrew that like runs around its own little maze and it clean, it just runs and runs. And like, I like keep thinking about me, like me having that little desert true part that's like constantly running. But my thought is every time I go to make a move, there's gonna be fallout somewhere. So what's the move that I can make that I feel comfortable with the probable amount of fallout that's gonna happen. But you're not, you don't know because you haven't been through it. So you're trying to like figure out, okay, this is slightly beyond my comfort zone to do, to pass this thing over and now let me like run around to see what happened, you know, like as a result. And then, okay. Okay. That, well, that's, it's seems like it's good. Like, all right. All right. And then, you know, there's like ano another step. So it's like, even if I know that I want that thing over there, I could, you know, do a fucking degree mill and purchase a, a, an MD somewhere and called myself a medical doctor. Sure. Like I could do it in a fake way or I could do it slowly. I'm not gonna say methodically 'cause I don't know if it's methodical. Sure. Intentional maybe. Yeah. But not like outcome wise, more like, okay, I'm intentionally passing over list this step. Like there's intentionality and the thing that I'm doing as I'm doing not in the, that's the direct pathway to get to the point. It's more like I, I don't know. It's constantly like this feeling state where I'm like rotating and feeling like where I can push a little bit. And then it's like sometimes it's here and then sometimes it's over there and sometimes it's up here and it like changes. And it is feeling, it's not even like, I feel like your approach to something like that would be more structured. Like you would be like thoughtful about it. More cerebral maybe. And I don't mean, you know, I don't mean that negative 'cause I like cerebral. No. Yeah. And mine is, I can't, that sounds great in theory, but if I went to like, apply that and it felt off, I couldn't do it. So it ends up being just pure, like feeling fucking base, you know? But I, yeah, I don't know if that makes sense. It does. No, it does. And I think that starts to highlight, you know, kind of the, the yin and yang of us and of our roles. Yeah. Um, you know, you, you do tend to be more experiential and I do tend to be more like, well, let's sit and think about that. Let's, let's look at, let's make a list, let's talk about all the steps of like what needs to happen from here to that. Um, yeah, no, that doesn't make sense. I think. Very helpful. Yeah. I mean, same for me. Same for me. It is very helpful because you're right, there are times where, you know, I might come up with a 10 step process and it doesn't actually make any fucking sense in the real world. You know? Yeah. This is our official first question. What's something about our dynamic that people might assume is smooth, but is actually nice and messy under the hood? Yeah. I love this question. I have no idea what you're gonna say, and I don't even know what my own answer is, but I really like this question. Well, I actually think it's kind of along the lines of what we're talking about. Like I think people probably assume, um. Particularly between you and I. So there's always like, there's like, you know, the onion, so there's like leadership team and there's like leadership decisions, but inside of that there's also v/i, there's visionary, there's our kind of our decision making or our interactions. Um, and I think that people probably assume that we are of the same mind or we have the same thoughts about things or the same approach about things. And I think we ultimately end up there 99% of the time. But I think coming, like when we approach the table, so to speak, whether that be our issues list or, um, how to really anything particularly around problem solving, I think we're often coming with very different thoughts about how we might approach something or what needs to be done about something. Um, and so quite a bit of our interaction is, I think it's kind of like a dance. It's us kind of processing, well what do you think about this? What do you think about this? Here's how I would approach it. And like, oh, I didn't think about it that way. Um, and so I think there is a lot more give and take and a lot more back and forth. Whereas my, my guess or my thought is that people probably think it's a little bit more Tara directs Taylor. And Taylor just does the thing that, you know, oh yeah, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. Like, not, not to, no, I think that's legit. I'm like, you're saying that it's like, oh fuck. Like I think that that's probably Yeah, you're probably right. I, I wonder if that is what I, I don't know. But anyway, sorry I cut you off. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no. I think about a former colleague of ours who was a part of our, our leadership team and then left, they essentially kind of underhandedly referred to me as like a yes man to you. And like that's how they saw our interaction or our relationship. And I wonder sometimes if that's how the team sees the vi relationship as like the, the integrator is essentially the yes man to the visionary. Um, and that, and in reality couldn't be further from the truth. I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm the Noman. Mm-hmm. And I feel like that's of the, in some ways is to, is to be the Noman actually. But, and this is, I don't know, maybe the beauty or the fault, I guess you could look at it either way, but because we, we have these structures in place of, you know, our bi seven page meetings of our leadership team, and that you and I don't walk away from something without it being resolved essentially. That it seems that way to the team. Like we present a very united front. Um, but I don't think, I think people don't realize that that's not, we don't start at that place and that there are times where you want something and I am very much like, no, I don't think we're gonna do that. That's not a good idea. Or I, or it's like, I really need to be convinced into it before, you know, I can move forward. Or the same thing I come in thinking like, I really think this is a good idea, and you're like, I don't know about that. Or like, no, that doesn't make sense. Um, yeah. So you, you're seem, you seem like that's kind of not necessarily new information to you, but No, I don't think I'd ever even. This sounds really fucked up to say out loud in the way that I'm saying it, but I don't even mean it this way. I think because that's such not the case, like the assumption that I fucking forgot that that even happened too. That you were in essence, referred to as a yes man, because I've never ever thought of you as a yes person. Like that's never even been a thought that's crossed my mind or, um, quite frankly, a dynamic I want to have with somebody. Like, I think I have so much respect and trust for you because you are honest with me and I trust that you will tell me no. Like that for me is where the trust is that someone. I can and will push back against me because I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna keep pushing. Like, I'm gonna be excited, I'm gonna push at something, and then I need, like Steve, my husband, you know, he is gonna tell me like, you're being a fucking idiot if I'm being a fucking idiot, or no, we're, we can't do that. And he's by no means a yes man, and also not like a no man. You know? But my, my point is, I think that's part of what works so well and why I, again, why I have so much trust for you in the role is because you tell me no. So the idea, and not you tell me no, but like, you will flesh out ideas with me. You will process things with me. You will hold a line if you're like, I don't think this is a good idea, Tara. Like, you're not unwilling to hold a line. No. Hold a boundary. No. I mean, I think, I think my approach oftentimes I agree. I don't think I, I don't think I ever really flat out telling you no. I think there was maybe a great time or two where I've said. No. Yeah. I hate this idea. I do. To remember I had a subscription option and you were like, I still hate this idea. Like this is not Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, is even with that, but even with that, like I'm open to, I'm open to being convinced, or ultimately at the end of the day, I do think there, there is a line where it's like, this is your business. Like mm-hmm. As much trust as you have in me, and as much give and take and back and forth as we share. Ultimately, it's your business. I'm employed by you. Um, and I like, and I don't mean that as like it's yours. I mean that as like, yeah. I think we talked about this when there was like a, there's like a HIPAA thing on the line, but it was like, dude, like you are responsible for this. This is ultimately you are the, the buck stops with you. Mm-hmm. And so you feel strongly about something. Um. I'm, you know, I'm gonna listen to it. I'm gonna go with you down that road. But that's not to say I'm not, I'm gonna do it blindly. Um, yeah, because I, I'm gonna have questions and I will say like, I don't like this, but I can be convinced, or like, let's talk me through what this is gonna look like. Yeah. I do feel like there are sometimes where, um, I, I know that there are moments that just run the gamut of some things you're not convinced about. And, um. I know, like where I'm like, yeah, that's gonna happen and some things you're not convinced about and if it's inconsequential or like not a big deal, I don't care. And you can just do what you want. And then you might come back and say, yeah, you were right. Or some things where I'm like, we're we, I feel like there's some things where it's like, we need to do this thing and you're not convinced, and it's a little bit bigger and I still know that we need to do it. And then there's some things where it's like, I wanna, I think I wanna do this thing. And you might say, that's a terrible idea. And then I say, I don't know if I'm just gonna defer to you. So, okay. Yeah, that'll just be, it's a terrible idea. I'm just gonna defer to you. And I, it's sort of so I feel like it's all over the place. Like we, we expand the whole gamut, so Yeah. I don't, I don't mean to, so yeah, this notion of you being a yes man. Um, I'm, I'm just shocked again, I like totally forgot that they had said that, and it's shocking to me the thought that like, oh God. That's not, that couldn't be further from the truth. And again, I don't fucking want a yes man. So not only is that insulting to you, but I think it's also reflective of like, you don't know me, like you must not know me 'cause I don't want that at all. Yes, yes. And it also makes me think, ultimately, I hope that like the team doesn't feel that way. I think that most people don't, I don't get the sense, I don't think it's, I don't think it's that like negative in that negative of a way. Like I don't think people think that I'm just a yes man. But I do wonder if people think, um, that. Things are maybe a little bit more unilateral than they are or that, like, I, I mean that more in the sense of less about like my role in it and more in the sense of like, there's a lot of development and back and forth that occurs before we reach like a decision point or before we feel like, okay, yeah, this is how we're gonna do it thing. It's not always the case. Sometimes it is like you'd say like, I don't fucking care. Just do this thing. And so then the back and forth is really me, myself, and I uhhuh. Okay. You know, figure it out. Um, but I mean it more in that like that the yes man thing is a kind of an extreme version or like the far end of the spectrum. But I do wonder if there's some of that, like, it's more like Tara decides the thing and then Taylor makes it happen versus a lot of the back and forth or the um. I think what it gets at is like, I hope people know, and I think most folks do that there is just such a deep level of intention. Even stuff people would think is so small. I mean, like Andrew will sit and watch me craft an email for 30 minutes, one email and he'll be like, what? Like what is taking, you gonna rewrite that again? And I'm like, yeah, probably I need to re I need to really read it, think about it. And like, um, it does like the things we do and say are done and said with a lot of intention. I think about like, um, like throwing pottery, like how much it's like you're making adjustments, you're stopping, you're looking at it, you're adding more, you're taking away, sometimes you're crushing it back down and starting again like there, but all you're seeing is this, like this put together thing. Mm-hmm. But there's so much like refinement and back and forth that happens with that thing to get the products that end up. Yeah. And, and, and folks are usually not super privy to that. Maybe they understand it and then they sense sort of abstract way that that's what happened. Um, but there's a lot of that happening versus just a like, let just plop this play scoop. Alright. It's ready to go. Yeah. I got a mug. Yeah. No, there's a lot of, uh, intentionality and back and forth. There was one other thing I say, and then I have another, I wanna, I have another question. Um, the other thing that you said that. How we approach problems. There's something about we do. I think, yeah, ultimately we approach things just differently. You know, it never feels bad to me. I think I also, you know, I like conflict. I like friction because it feels like, um, when it's done well, it, it feels, it's safe to do. It feels safe to do, and it feels healthy to do because that's how we get to an actual, like, polished outcome. Like, you have to have friction to get to this thing, you know? And I think I like, that's very embedded. It's like in my bones, you know? So it's like, um, I just trust it with the right people. I trust it. And so I think there's something about how we approach conversations is different, and we do very often, I think that we are on the same page. Uh, like as, even as we're going throughout the conversation, not in how we are necessarily conceptualizing the thing, but like, by the end we, we both are pretty, like on the same page. I sometimes wonder if that's because not only the, the, let's say the core values are clear, but like we've been doing leadership together for so long that the, it's like the, the leadership ethos, you know, I think about like the, you know, like a leadership manifesto or like the, the way that we do leadership, the values that were sort of like, you know, what shit is important to me, you know, what's important to me for the team to experience? Like, I know that, you know, and I know that I think it's also important to you. Like, I think that there's a lot of overlap with our values, ultimately with regard to leadership and of course also the counseling hub with the practice too. So I think that that's like part of what helps us consistently be, if not on the same page, like very, very close by the end. Yeah, ultimately we're working from the same palette, like I think about like a pink palette, like we're working from the same palette. Um, and we might, we might be heavier on one hue versus the other, but ultimately we're still working from the same set of colors, essentially. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So it always is complimentary rather than, you don't have like neon paint. Think of highlighter yellow. I hate, I hate, ugh, I hate it. I hated him. She, I hated even, even as a nineties kid, I did not get the Lisa Frank obsession. I did not like the bright, the vibrant. It's just never been for me. Yeah. That's super funny. No, it's all fall tones. All earthy tones. Mm-hmm. Okay. What is, let's do another question, question two. This is the official question two. What's a moment that changed the way you think about working with me? Like a full on pivot point? I already think you, I've said this before, so just for anybody listening, I did let Taylor see the questions in advance, not to give her enough time to think about the answers for the record, but just to see them. I don't like the language of this question 'cause it feels like it's very focused on me. Like, you know, what changed the moment that changed the way you think about working with me. But really I think it's more about what's a moment that changed the way you experienced the dynamic. Like the bi dynamic is sort of the Yeah, like the, a full on pivot point. Um, that's funny 'cause I think it's, um, it's both a moment and also a series of moments over time. Um, so I think it was, I think it was a period of, um, us both being, you being transparent and us both being on the same page about where this thing was going in terms of like our relationship. Especially as our titles were changing and our roles were kind of shifting, but being maybe not clear on the nitty-gritty, but like clear on like, this is like where we're headed. And so like what, um, I have two moments in my one moment that which is reflective of the string of moments, I think. But I remember, um, we went for a walk. We were at the Jeff City location and we went for a walk together and I don't remember honestly a single thing that we talked about. I have no, I have no memory of like what we were actually discussing. I don't either, but I remember the walk. Yeah. Um, and we ended up on this like cool, like, like feel, we were like looking at those. I remember really looking at enjoying looking at the trees. I feel like I might have been pregnant at the times, but I don't, I could be wrong. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of our, there's a lot of our relationship that I've been pregnant, so. But I remember essentially the, the, the sense of the memory is, um, it kind of felt like, um, almost like testing out, like what do you think about this? Like, you coming to me and being, what do you think about this? Like, I want, I genuinely want your thoughts and what you might do about this thing. And it almost kind of felt like a trial run for like an integrator type decision making. Um, so there's that. And then the other like moment, and again, I don't remember the specifics around it, so it's funny. Um, I tend to be more intellectual and more cerebral, but memory for me is more just an emotion rather than a recollection of facts. Yeah. Um, Andrew and I get into a lot of arguments because. I don't remember what was said or done, but I remember what, what I found, you know, how it fucking felt, how me feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I, so there was some sort of, um, there was some sort of like emotional thing in getting in the way for me, for between us and, um, you just, you just like called it out. You were like, there's something here emotionally, I want to talk through it. Um, and that was very uncomfortable. I feel like I'm outing myself as like, I probably am not gonna continue to, like, I would not have continued to do clinical work because maybe I'm not very good at it because That's so funny. I'm really uncomfortable with emotions and like discussing emotions. Um, so maybe it's a good thing I didn't end up being a therapist for very long. Um. But I what, for me it was this process of you kind of like leading me by the hand in a gentle but firm way of like, there's something here, we're gonna talk about it, and I know you don't wanna talk about it, but it's actually really important that we talk about it. And what that communicated to me essentially was it's like, um, trust and safety. It's like, um, it's okay that this thing exists, uh, and actually like, I expect that this thing exists and let's just deal with it and talk about it and then we can move on. And so it's not just this thing that's getting in the way or weighing us down. Um, and so I think in a lot of ways that what it kind of modeled this, um, dynamic of, um, being real people together and, um. Not shying away from difficult conversations. Um, but also not coming at it, like you say, like you love conflict and I don't think that for everyone that might resonate. Like maybe people will think like, I love conflict. Like I'm really aggressive and I wanna fight it out. And like, that's not actually it. It's not, that's not at all. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. Thanks for saying that. 'cause yeah, that's not, I don't need it. No, that's, yeah. Mm-hmm. It's not like a war. I'm not like physic. It's not like a, an aggressive No, go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm cutting you off. But it is, but it, it, it's, I think it is more about like that tension and that, um, uh, friction as you said. Mm-hmm. Um, things, things happen, like emotions come into play. Um, and that is part of, that's part of the dynamic, that's part of what's happening. And so anyway, creating this space that acknowledges that this is a part of it and that we can work through it together and that it's normal and effective, um. One, I think healed a lot of like the workplace trauma I had been through, because that was not like basic, it was not safe or okay to like, have emotions. Yeah. And also it was not acknowledged when others were having emotions that were impacting things and then you were like gaslit or feeling, you know, all of that. And so it like healed a lot of that. And it also like, um, yeah, like set up this, it set up this dynamic where honestly like we can, I can say, no terrible, that's a terrible idea. We're not gonna do this. And I don't have to worry. I don't have to worry about like, now she's gonna be all, she can be pissed off at me and she's, she's gonna fire me or she's not gonna trust me with the decisions anymore. And in fact, you welcome, you know that that kind of pushback or give and take is welcome. A very rich part of the, the development of, of whatever we're working on. It's like, again, I don't, I don't remember what, what I was feeling emo about. I don't remember what I was feeling emo about, but I remember you were like, okay, let's talk about it. And um, and now it's like I kind of, now I approach problems and I'll straight up say like, I feel really grumpy about this, or, um, I'm having a really strong reaction to this. And it's just a piece of data, um, that's really useful. Um, and I mean, actually yeah, sometimes you'll even say like, I'm feeling this way about this thing. Yeah. And it's like, oh, okay, cool. That's a useful piece of data for me in how we're talking about this. How you're approaching it as well. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, yeah, it is data. Of course it's data. How can it not be? Like, how can you operate? I was thinking about what's powerful in your brain. Like your limbic system is more powerful than your frontal cortex. So if it's, if it's loud, like it's gonna, like you, you can't get away from it. It's right there. You've done the same thing to me. Once I know that I was having some feelings and I did, I think this was early on. You called me and it wasn't even work related, but you called me and you were like, I feel like something's changed. And then it sort of invited a conversation where I was like, oh fuck. Like I did not realize I needed to do that with her. Like that. Like okay. I think that was like a, A level I actually do, I remember I actually remembered that and I remember specifically what it was about and I remember, yeah, I was in an old apartment. Yeah, I was for sure pregnant at that point. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, um, in hearing you say those same, I remember walking, I don't have any idea what we talked about. And then also, I'm not surprised I made you talk about something like, say I got, I don't remember exactly, but like Siebel, he called me once, like a, I'm just like, um, I think he probably still thinks the musical golden retriever, honestly, but like also a golden retriever with the ball where I'm just like, you wanna play ball, you wanna play ball, you wanna play ball, you wanna play ball here, here's ball. Here you go. Wanna play ball? Like. I'm not like pushy, I'm not like ab biting you to throw the ball, but like, you're gonna throw the ball for me. Like you're gonna throw No, you're not aggressive, but you're insistent. Yeah. Yeah. That's very nice. Yeah, that's true. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And I also like, what's funny is that the dynamic is also, um, internally anyway, it's juxtaposed with, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed to the extent that they shut down, but, so it's like this weird, like I've, it's really important to me that you're also okay, but like this thing is blocking this us like, I think we need to talk about it. You know? It's, it's like I, I'm like, tip, I wanna talk. I'm like tiptoeing to talking about it, and we need to, but I are, are you good? Like, come on. Like, we need to talk about, you know, I sort of feel like, yeah, persistence is probably the right word. There's one other thought that I had and I forgot what it was. So that's, I. Um, yeah. Okay. Anything else? I think that that's good. The pivot point. Yeah. I agree with you. Series of moments. I think that's just the way of being now, is that we all just talk about stuff and probably the first few times is then the hardest, like mm-hmm. Yeah. And again, especially just a relationship, like you're sort of forging a relationship with somebody and if you, if you're bringing in somebody that you don't know, then you don't have the level of trust and safety. And if you are bringing up somebody that what has been with you and you're trying to like, escalate their position, you know, or like increase, increase their responsibility, you make the role bigger, et cetera, it still is, there's still a matter of delegating and like increasing trust and safety and, you know, all of that. It still has to take place. There are still always firsts and like ideally they're going well, and even if they don't, then there's the space to repair. Yeah. Which is also healing. Like that still can take place. Yeah. Okay. You wanna keep going? All right, question three. Um, I like these questions too. What do you see other leaders wrestle with when it comes to delegation or letting go? So, I think, I think it's fair that you can, you can, I can be in this mix so other leaders can also include me, but I think also the potentially other work experiences you've had, or even some of the leaders, like you've been doing some masterminds with me, so I mean, some of the other, and like some of you've been to conferences with me, so any and all, any and all input. Oh, that's funny. I'm glad you, I'm actually glad you expanded that. 'cause honestly, I was just thinking about, like, Molly, I was thinking about like, okay, who do I do LMA with? What do I see? Molly is our director, sorry. Molly is our director of clinical operations and our DCO reports to Taylor, reports to the integrator. Just to give people quick context. Go ahead. Yeah. Uh, so I'll kind of, I'll, I'll give kind of some of the examples that are coming to mind. Um, so I think. Um, uh, I think for Molly, where I've seen like struggle in like delegating or, um, giving up is, it's almost about, like, it goes back to the, the wrestling I think that you and I have done about like, what does, what is what, what is the integrator, what is the visionary? Um, yeah. Do you mean to say that she wrestles with that role? Like what is the BCO? Like, how is it embodied? Yeah. I think some of it is that, like, what is the DCO especially because, um, she's stepping, she's, she's still in two roles. I mean, she's DCO and she's also clinical therapist, and I think especially early on, um mm-hmm. This is probably, I think for her the first time we're in a professional capacity where she's having to like, juggle those two hats. Like two very distinct hat. Same. That's my guess. Um, but also I'm thinking not just her own role and what is her own role, but also what is the role of, what is her role in conjunction to others in terms of like delegating her, letting go. So like what might be appropriate to, to give over to a supervisor or to give over to, um, a clinical team lead. Mm-hmm. Um, or to bounce back to me, um that, that can be difficult. I feel like less so for me now, but I think originally that was kind of a, a thing to navigate. Like particularly when can I bounce things back to, you know, when can I say like, I actually think you need to do this. Um, so that's one thing. I think it's, um, particularly when you're stepping into a role. If that role is there, you achieve that role. Navigating where do I exist in this role and what's appropriate? Or even like, um, maybe it's appropriate for me to delegate or pass this thing over, but maybe I don't feel confident in that person's ability to do that thing. Um, that can be really challenging and that can not be about that person's competency. It might be about that person's behalf. That's something I run into. We just had this conversation last week. Um, that's something you was being bounced into my role and I was reluctant about it because, because I ultimately, it was gonna be more for Molly about all the shit that Molly has on her plate, right. Um. So ultimately I do think, and so then taking in what I'm, what I've seen with the mastermind groups or what I've heard from other leaders, I really do think a lot of it does boil down to accountability chart and being really rooted or not in what is this person's role, what are their responsibilities, who owns this thing? And then also the caveat that is kind of newer to us, I'm thinking about like when we're setting company rocks and like maybe one person owns this, but there's one doing the work. Um, really being able to, um, integrate the idea or connect with the idea that this thing might be this person's responsibility. So it might be your responsibility to do a thing, but ultimately. You can't be all of the hands and feet getting that thing done. And so kind of holding this tension between, ultimately I, I'm responsible for this thing. The buck stops with me to use that phrase. Um, but I'm gonna, I need a lot of people's cuff on this thing. Um, and that might be maybe from a just conceptual standpoint, that might be hard for some people to integrate into their off, like how they operate. This idea of like, I can delegate, I think, but it still can be mine to me. Mm-hmm. I think that actually is a fantastic segue to the next question, which is the, how do you know when something is mine to fix versus yours to absorb? And I think that this, in my mind, this is like, there's a couple of ways of looking at this. Of course there's how do you know when something is mine as visionary to fix versus yours as integrator to absorb. But I think even at a higher level, broadly speaking, like how would a, a leader know what's mine versus somebody else's? Getting back to kind of like, you know, that feels like that's the, the start of the last point of what you were making. Like where do I exist in time and space and in relation to these other things surrounding me as we're all, you know, we're all part of this larger system, so how do I fit? What's mine? What does delegation look like? And ownership, even if I'm not the one that has every single, I'm not making every single move in relation to a project getting done, for example, or, um, this process being followed consistently or something like that. So lemme say just a question one more time and then you can take it where you want to. How do you know when something is mine to fix versus yours to absorb? I'm super interested in your take on this. Um, so I think, I think I'm thinking about this in two ways. I'm thinking about our specific, um, our specific dynamic and then I'm thinking about like, you know, your more general question of how a leader might wrestle with that. Um, I, and I think for us a lot of it is, um, is kind of trial and error. I think, I think a lot of it is, if there is something that comes into my inbox, so to speak, whether that's literally figuratively. If there's something that comes my way, and it's not obviously like this is your job to do, if I feel unsure or like if I, let's say it's a problem, I feel unsure how to solve the problem, or if I feel like it has bigger implications for the practice, or it may impact other systems, um, multiple roles, um, that is to me kind of like a little warning bell of like, this might be a visionary thing. Um, or it might be, it might be my thing ultimately, but this is something I, I really think I want visionary in it before I, you know, um. And so to give examples, things like that might be like people issues. Um, if there's something like this might be affecting someone's job, um, in a negative way, or, um, it might be, um, financially it might, it might be something that is impacting their practice financially. Maybe. , I just saw an email come through about, um, Anthem Denying Adjustment Disorder, um, adjustment Disorder claims. Um, okay. That's really good for us to know. That could have a bigger implication on our practice because I do know some of our clinicians do use, um, adjustment disorders can be used as kind of a, let's see, let's get to know each other and see where we go from here, so that, that is intentionally impactful for our practice. Yeah. But then the other filter I kind of run that through is, um, uh, I think we've talked about like strengths Quest. I don't know if you've done Strengths Quest, but I, I, we. I've done it quite a bit like it was part of my grad program. It has been a part of like organizations I've been a part of and consistently over the year, it's like five traits that you have, um, of like a, from like a pool of like 32 possible traits. Um, consistently over the years that I've taken it, context has been one of my strengths. Context? Context. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Context is really important to me and it really informs how I make the decision and so I think that's why I can be kind of long-winded in, in answering questions because my immediate thought is like, well, it depends on the situation, depends what, um, and so for me, for going to use the, um, Anthem thing, or maybe I reach out to you and say, Hey, this is a problem. Um, I'm gonna reach out to my billing specialist, um, and say, Hey, do you know about this? What kind of impacts do you foresee this having? I'm gonna reach out to RDCO and say, Hey, do you have a sense of like, how often are people using adjustment disorders? If this like a normal, should we need to? And then I can start to develop an idea of, hey, we need to make a policy wide shift in how we're talking to clinicians about using this diagnosis. Um, maybe we need to, maybe we need to develop a policy. Maybe we just need to give people a heads up. And so if it, if it ends up being a bigger thing of like maybe, um, maybe we do a lot of adjustment disorders and this is maybe they're gonna claw back and this is now gonna have bigger implications, then I'm gonna come to the and say, okay, hey, this is the problem. This is what I've, this is information I've gotten so far. Maybe I'll say, this is what I'm thinking. Or maybe I'll say, um. Don't freak out, but I don't know what to do here. And then that's where, you know, the visionary has, that, has that visionary is almost often is almost always the business owner. So it's like mm-hmm. High level financial decisions. This is impacting the business. This is something you need to do. And so that becomes a very clear, like, oh, this is visionary, um, ultimately to open. Mm-hmm. And I think I would also, sorry I clarify here too, in terms of like, this is visionary in my mind. That means you and I have a conversation. We basically, IDS this, we have a conversation, we debate, we discuss, we identify all of the kind of like related pieces and then we, with the data that you've collected with like the information that we have, and then we, if we can solve it right then, whatever decision is made. The enacting of that typically falls back to integrator. Like, that's where it's like, oh yeah, you're saying, Tara, I want help with this. I'm like, cool, let's do this. We sort of discuss together because yeah, that is a much larger impacts a lot. You want impact or input, excuse me, from the visionary about what is this? What do you wanna do? What are you thinking? Like, here's what I'm thinking, or maybe I'm, I'm a little bit lost as to what to do. And then once we decide, it's sort of like, cool and visionary goes back to doing whatever and whittling my thumbs. Yeah. Right. And then, yeah, just to clarify that piece too, where. Um, I think historically it would've been before you were fully an integrator, I think it just would've been visionary. And then I take it and like run and try to solve it or try to do a bunch of stuff or try to whatever, you know, delegate all the pieces. And now it, that seems to, that's your camp. Like this is where like the line, you know, between us for me is, is really helpful to have and to say, oh, I might have this input here and ultimately my integrator's gonna be the one ensuring that it happens, which you're much better at anyway. So I think the other thing that kind of, um, it's almost like an alarm system or a warning bell of like, this isn't, this is not mine, this is visionary, is if I'm feeling really stuck about it. Like if something lands in my pile in my inbox and I can't get started on it, I'm really struggling with it. I don't know where to start. I don't. It's like maybe this will end up with me, but I'm, I can't do it. That is usually like a, a warning sign to me that like, oh, this actually is visionary. It's not ready to come. Yeah. Visionary needs to conceptualize more, or I need, I, this actually is not ready for the entire, because oftentimes, um, things start with visionary and then pass over into grader. And so if it hasn't passed through the visionary filter, um, or if it has but it's not complete, that usually is a, if that, if there's that like maternal distress almost of like, I don't know what to do here. That's like telling to me, oh, this is, this is visionary. This isn't my, this isn't mine. Yeah. Almost like a canary in a coal mine. A little bit with your own, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think same. I think that this has been a, yes, this was a recent conversation between you and I and maybe, maybe Molly, maybe the DCO at, I dunno if it was a leadership team meeting or one, one of our one-to-ones. But it was like, um, there's some to-dos that just kept, like, it was from rocks, it was from to-dos. Like they just kept, it's kicking a fucking can down the road, you know? We just kept not doing these. And then ultimately realizing my resistance comes in the form of this is like a high execution, very tasky thing. And I don't, I don't, I just can't. I just can't, like, I'm like, oh God, dragging my fucking feet to get this done. And then your resistance comes in the form of like, um, conceptual overwhelm minus like execution over Yes. Which would imply. I need to grapple with it more, be more clear and then filter, like, filter like you said, through the visionary, back to integrator. And then conversely, it might be if it's like tasky overwhelm, I don't know if it's mine to own, like it probably should be passed over then and yeah. So I think to generalize that to a leader who is, is grappling with what's mine, what's someone else's outside of being really clear about accountability chart, I also think about it in, in terms of, um, is this the best use of my time as the integrator? Is this the best time use of your time as a visionary? There are lots of things that we can do. Like a lot of my things that I do, you can and have done. Um, I don't know necessarily know if the flip is true. But, um. What is the best use of my time? And that's not to say that my time is more valuable than, than my client care or my, my time is more valuable than anyone else, but my time as the integrator is best spent in certain areas. And the same is true for, yeah, for my, for my client care, for my billing specialist, for different people like our time best spent in certain areas. And so that is actually sums back to like maybe the fasting side of things. Like there's a lot of stuff within the organization that we can probably all do and we sometimes made to pitch in to help. Um, but ultimately, is this the thing my time is best spent on? I think that for me comes up a lot actually for you. Like I think to myself like, Tara, is this the best use of your time? Like mm-hmm. Yeah, you can do this thing and it needs to get done and maybe other people are having capacity issues, but ultimately is this the best use of the visionary's time? Know that it is, your time is spent doing visionary stuff is best spent doing conceptualizing and big picture stuff and grappling with like, we're gonna insti, like put in a new service and where do we even start? What do we want this to look like? Mm-hmm. Not, um, developing a policy that's not the best use of your phone. Yeah. Ironically, it's gonna take me forever. Exactly. Yeah. It's gonna take, because I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it at all times long. Yeah. And same for me. Maybe, maybe I could get there, like I said, I don't know, but maybe I could get there. It's not gonna be great. It's gonna be slapped together with duct tape and God, uh, but it's not, it's ultimately not the best use of our time. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, there's something about, uh, there's always something about like visionary leadership that feels self-indulgent to me. That's totally. It's just this is a me thing. I, you know, maybe it's a lot of people thing, but it's, I know for sure this isn't like. I don't think that that's a global phenomenon for leaders. I think that that is, um, it's an internal experience, you know, and so I think there's something about like, well, why do I get to spend time doing what I love? And ultimately I have to like, think about it as a. My responsibility is to be visionary. Like it has to come from a more like grounded, like, it's not just me running around like I like doing butterfly things, but like I still, I have responsibilities and a responsibility to the larger group and to the people who I work closely with to make the best use of my time as possible. And so it's less about me and how I want to spend my time, although of course that's a sort of a factor. And it's more about what is the best use of a visionary time, like how should this be spent? So I feel like when I have that question, I almost have to remove myself from the equation. Like I have remove terror from the equation. 'cause for Tara, it feels self-indulgent, but if I look at it like a visionary and I see it outside of myself, it's like, oh yeah, why are you doing this? Like that doesn't make it, don't write a policy like. Stop grapple. Sure. Like, figure out how it lives. Or maybe like, conceptualize this thing and like flick it over to the right place. Like you need this outta your hands. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Okay. I'm gonna keep going unless you have more. Yes. Um, okay, let's go a little bit more practical. So we're gonna shift into a couple of practical questions. What is one rhythm or meeting that has been game changing for us? Same page meeting. No question. Interesting. Not l Elton. No question. Same page? No, same page. Got it. I guess us would be visionary integrator. So same page? Yeah. Yeah. Um, this talk a little bit about why this might be selfish. Yeah. This might be selfish, but I think the same page, the vi same page meeting is I think called most important leader centers in our practice. Yeah. Um, because, um, when we added in a regular, like weekly minimum an hour, I feel like that started to take us to the next level because a lot of what we talk about or wrestle with is maybe more on the conceptual side of things. Not best done in L 10, but before we had this regular meeting, it was, it was, these things would either sit on IDS list in L 10 and we would avoid talking about it 'cause it was big and we didn't wanna take up the time or, because often with L 10 there is more time sensitive, like, hey, these are things the practice is facing, we need to address these. And so these more bigger picture conceptual things got pushed to the back. Um, and maybe we would address a couple of them at our quarterlys or our annuals. Um, but we are more regularly tackling bigger conceptual challenges or opportunities in our same page meeting. And it's a regular touch point, um, that I think reaffirms the, the passing over of things from vision making creator. So I'm thinking about like marketing, um, that's like a relatively new thing that's living under my umbrella, so to speak. And I need a lot more support around it. One, because it's, it's such, it's a big fucking thing. It's not something I've done before and it's something that needs a lot of fine tuning and checking into, and that would be such a waste of our time in L tens. But it's, it's like a, a safety net. It's a landing spot for us to, there are some weeks where, no, I feel really good about marketing where it's at. I don't need an name, but I'm just giving you a, a headline. But there are some weeks where it's like, this thing is here and I don't know what to do with it, or I'm not sure where to go with it. Um, and so we can get, we can get clear on that. Um, yeah. And so clarify too that the marketing is less about my, uh, it's marketing oversight of all of the moving parts. So. Taylor isn't doing, she's not on social media doing marketing. She's ensuring that everything is done on time, in essence. So she's the one like coordinating all of the efforts and ensuring execution of them just to, like, I wanted to say that out loud where it's, yeah. It's more like, it's more like practice level oversight of marketing. Yeah. And alignment with vision that, you know, you and I stay connected about this, but ultimately you're saying, okay, this is happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's exactly that. It's, it is, it's really where, um, the mixing between the two rules occurred. And without that, I think there were more stumbling blocks or more points of like, um, just like stuck points of like, this would sit in my lap and I would really wrestle with it, you know, really struggle to get started. Or a to do would sit in your lap and you would've played it and you do other stuff because ultimately that's not your to-do, it's mine. Um, and so. That, that I think is just, is just really useful. And I think too, it allows us to maybe refine things that ultimately will go back to L 10 or that will go to other meetings. But again, sitting on the same page, it allows us to refine, clarify, and be clear about either where we go from here or what the true nature of the issue is. So then it goes back to the letting go. Like you can let go of it. Or I can be really clear about like, alright, I'm gonna pass this over. Like this is actually Molly's, like, I'm gonna give this to Molly and Molly is gonna deal with it. Um, and I we are on again, same page. We're on the same page about it. Yeah. That's fair. I don't think I had, um, even really thought about it. You know, I love L 10. I love, like I do too. I don't, I don't love meetings, period. But I think our L tens and our VI meetings are same page meetings are I. Great. Like, they're great. They're focused, they're purposeful, they're intentional, they're very, very clear. I don't think I realized, I think that you're right in what you're saying. It's like, as I'm, as I'm hearing you say this about the VI meetings and the same page meetings, I don't think I realized the extent to which they would impact how things feel. You know, like between us, but also in terms of you being able to move on things faster and me being able to move on things faster and like there's more clarity just all around, there's more clarity. And it's cleaner too for L 10 meetings. It's cleaner for your one-to-ones with Molly. And so with our DCO, you know, I, yeah, I just, it's funny 'cause they seem so, like natural, they just seem so easy and natural. But I, I think you're right. They're very much, um, yeah, I mean, they sort of follow the flow of the accountability chart. It's like they're the linchpin between the two of us. Like if I'm imagining a, a hanging string or like two connected pieces. It's like that's the, the, the central like nut or bolt or little, what's that little like metal button thing that you can bend and it doesn't matter, Brad. Yeah, maybe they're that thing that keeps us together and then there's another brad, if that's what, I guess that's what it's called. I don't have any idea. Dit dot rivet. It doesn't matter. We'll call it Brad Rivet. A rivet could bet. Maybe it's the rivet was the thing. Well, the rivet is like the, the hole. It's like the metal. It's just it's got a Yeah, it thing the rivet between us. It's the same page meeting and then the rivet between underneath the integrator and between DCO, which also kind of connects me 'cause I'm up there too. That's our Elton meeting. It's like, duh. This is, these are the points at which we all stay connected. Well, I think about before, like having a dedicated weekly meeting that's relatively new for us. Before that, we were doing biweekly, and then before that it was, you know, one of us was pregnant or on mat leave. So like that, you know, is a whole fucking thing. Um, and so this is really the first time where we have met weekly with regularity for a considerable amount of time. Mm-hmm. And I'll say like, before we were doing that, I would often feel like I felt disconnected from you. I felt like we, I, we weren't meeting enough. It always felt like the time that we had it was like, still in time. Like, I need more. It's not enough because it wasn't enough. Um, because there is such a, like if I'm like, you're looking at the accountability chart, it's like the line between visionary and indicator is like really thick. It's like a thick line. There's a lot of connection. There needs to be a lot of connection. There needs to be a really robust, substantial connection between two roles. Um, and so I think. I think it just has that, it, it also, um, the thing I'll add and then we can move on. Um, it doesn't bol in me necessarily, but it helps me to feel really clear that when I am making decisions or like being the kind of filtration that things don't go back up to, I feel really confident in saying like, um, no, we're not gonna do this thing. Or like, I'm just gonna handle this. Um, and I'll, I'll give you an FYI, you know, I'll say, Hey, this thing happened. Um, but it, it really gives me more of that space to step more fully into the integrator and take care of things, um, that would usually end up on your plate, but really don't need to. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I so appreciate that. I think that's probably one of the best. I don't, I don't wanna know if it's not, if it's, if it's handled, if it's okay, maybe an FYI, but like, you know, I won't get sucked into problems. It's hared me once I'm like in it, it's hard me to back out without it being resolved. Which is great in some ways 'cause it kind of forces us to work through things and then it's not great in other ways. 'cause I'm gonna get sucked into something that could be handled by others, like could be handled effectively and probably with more consistency by somebody else, you know? Yeah. I think you might do, you might do it differently than I would do it, but ultimately, and actually likely it will. I, I am going approach things differently than you would, but ultimately they're gonna end up in the same general area if we are clear about the vision and about where we're going and about how we operate. Yeah. What were you gonna say? Me? Um, I was gonna say, there's one other thought that I had, uh, the VI meeting I think that I was starting to reflect. I don't, I don't know if I wanna go here, but I think that I was starting to reflect on what has changed about the same page meetings between the two of us. I think, I think maybe my nutshell version is like. When we were having them before, I don't think that they were as structured. And I also don't think that the roles, our roles weren't as my understanding of a visionary and an integrator in the dynamic between the two and yours. I think also, um, we're not as clear. Like it's such a, it's such an obvious, like I, I feel so much more clear on what this looks like now compared to a year and a half ago, a year ago. You know, it's like, oh, that's what this is like. Like this is how they work together. And so then it makes the vi same page meetings really obvious. Like really purposeful and really obvious. And so, yeah, I just think that's something about that too, which is like they, I don't think they worked before. 'cause it sort of felt like, well I don't, you know, it's hard to do something that I don't feel really grounded and clear in. Yeah. We were also like just to speak to that we were. We were in a really awkward place because you kind of, you were ready to move in that direction. And I was pregnant. I mean, I was like, yeah, yeah. Pregnant with twins and going into a really unknown space of like, who knows how long I'm gonna be on mat leave. Mm-hmm. Who knows what, like when I'm gonna have these babies. And it really, um, stunted our ability to, I think, set into the bi roles. Um, and so I think that was, I, I think that was actually a pretty legitimate factor because I remember starting to have these conversations Yeah. Probably about this time last year. Um, and Oh yeah, you, and you basically being like, I'm ready to move in this direction. And me, like, I had a really rough pregnancy. It was like a, it was really intense on me being like, I'm not looking for this. Mm-hmm. Um, so I don't know how important that is, but I do think that's like a caveat that I think we, we were ready to move into this space sooner than we have just by virtue of life, life circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. Okay. Here's my next question. This one's very practical for anybody who has visionary integrator or like is a CEO and has a COO or is the managing director and has a other person underneath them. I don't know what that title would be. Um, what is the smallest, practical shift of visionary or visionary equivalent could make tomorrow that would help their integrator breathe easier? Hmm. Small and practical are the words. I'm tripping on the tiniest. So let's say the smallest shift, um, small is relative. Yeah. Okay. So like if the shift is, you know, we're talking about like a, a 90 degree angle shift, like maybe our smallest shift we make is shoot 10 degrees now, which is much bigger than like, you know, 0.5 degrees or something. Okay. I'm just gonna start talking and you can tell me if I'm, do it. I don't have any idea honestly. Yeah. Um, so if, if the things I'm thinking through are like, um, and again, this is like not small, but like clear definition of the role, like being clear about what is a visionary and what, if you are not clear about that, that is the single most important thing you can do. Or if you are like, invite your integrator to, um. Invite them to push back or like take, um, take charge with that. Like they're, give them permission, give them space, give them whatever to be able to say, I see you're doing this thing. I actually think it's fine, or I'm gonna take a stab at this thing. Um, so okay, so maybe practically that looks like if, if your integrator is coming to you with a question, live it back on your integrator and say, what would you do about this? Because that's really, that's what you did. That's, um, that's how we started to move in that direction. I would bring a problem and you would say, I wanna hear where your thoughts are. Um, and that would really, and then nine times outta 10 you would be like, yep, sounds good. Mm-hmm. And so that really conditioned me to like, one, think about what are, what am I, how am I thinking about this? And then gave me the confidence, or like both of us, I think the confidence to say like, yeah, okay, that's, that works. That's what, that's either how I would do it or close enough that that is what we want. Um. So then maybe a more practical or other small thing is, um, clean, clean up your own to-do list as the visionaries. Oh, geez, man. Yeah, yeah. Like clean it up. If there's stuff on there that doesn't belong to you, get that shit off of your to-do list because ultimately you are keeping me stuck like you're keeping me stuff. Or if it's not me, you're keeping my DCO stuff or you're keeping some other person stuck. Um, and so be thoughtful gatekeeper, almost yourself, gatekeeper what goes on your to-do list. Um, and I'd say maybe Tara, this is something that you could do better about, or you could, we as a, like we could do better about like, is this really Taras to do tone or this is something I think we've started doing more, which is maybe this isn't a to do and maybe it's not something that needs to get done. Um, so maybe it goes on Tara's object based, because if it just sits on your to-do list, you know, so it's like. If there's something on your do list, it really be, be sure it needs to be there. Mm-hmm. Um, and be realistic. Like, if it's not gonna get done in two weeks, then that either needs to go to someone else or it needs to be broken up into smaller pieces. Or maybe it doesn't actually need to be done right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think there's something about, um, one thing I will say that I did not anticipate, I don't know if I anticipate much actually, but like, um, I did not realize the extent to which my to-do items would be changed more into like low key like small projects. I even, what it seems like, you know, I, um, created an interpretation guide for, you know, oh no. I created a community marketing guidelines where it was like, I sort of, I see thought about like, okay, what does it look like? How do we do what do blah, blah, blah, all the, all this stuff related to it. We made a change to it. This is just an example, and I think this was actually in our vi uh, it was in our same page meeting, and the to do was update. Like, I need to add this section into the guidelines because I was the one conceptualizing it, so it made sense to me that I, I wanted to flesh it out and then be able to pass it over. Yeah. And I went to go do this, and it took me hours because the whole guidelines have been created with something specific in mind. And so then now there's this re grappling process with, you know, this one to do item is a multi-hour endeavor. And that is a small example. What's more common now is that these to-dos that I've been, the, the ones even that feel accurate that I should own are taking me multiple hours to do. Those are not in my mind. It's like, oh, those aren't, I don't know if those are to-dos, like those are many projects and they require a lot of mental focus and energy. A to-do is meeting, meeting me, needing to update something in our HR system because of the access settings. A to-do, like sending an email about this. Like those are to do items, you know? And so I think there, there is this, that has just been a change that I haven't anticipated where it's like, holy moly, like these are, these are small projects, which means my schedule needs to be more free so that I can actually spend time working on them. And also it means anything else that doesn't fit should not be here. Like, it, it, I don't need, it doesn't need to be on my to-do list. I will say the, the, this is probably years ago. I think there was one day or maybe I, I don't know, it's been a little while. I was just fucking burnt out. I was tired. I think I was starting to get resentful and. It's to my to-do list. And I was just like, I don't wanna do any of this. And I started thinking, why do I have so much shit here? Like this should go here and this should go here and this should go here. And then I just took stuff and then I just like, I think I emailed to-dos to people to get rid of them and that probably kicked off for me. I think some of the start of trying to be more intentional with to-dos, but it's hard, like, yeah, it is still hard. Um, anyway. Yeah. 'cause there's still stuff that needs to get done. Like there's still stuff that needs to get done. Um, and there's always gonna be this tension of like, there's a lot of stuff and it needs to be done right now. And so how do you filter through what needs to be done right now? And I don't know that there's a perfect formula for that other than going back to your vision, going back to your walks, going back to your accountability chart and sorting out like. Where does that go? What gets prioritized? Yeah. Um, if I had to say one more thing and you kind of hit the hit on us, like a practical thing would be like, if look at your calendar as a visionary and ask yourself like, is this the best use of my time? Like, do I need to be at this meeting? Do, like, does this thing need to be on my calendar? Um, or even be more reflective about like, um, we, we all have different work styles. Like, you know, I can pick stuff up and put it down and pick it up and put it down mm-hmm. All throughout the day, and that works fine for me. You cannot do that. You cannot operate that way. And so it's like. Physician heal thyself. Like know yourself, know what, how you work best, and if your schedule is not set up to support that, then change your schedule. Mm-hmm. Um, this is, this is a conversation we've had with our DCO. Like, this is not how you best work. So you need to change your schedule. And that might not be something that can happen overnight, but you can start making moves and you can put a deadline for yourself by the end of the year. I'm gonna shift my schedule so that I'm only seeing clients on Tuesdays. I don't see clients any other, this is for our DCO, but where I'm only, I'm only going to schedule meetings on Tuesdays. And that's a hard, that can be a hard line. And so if other people, you know, they can, you are the visionary. You are the integrator. You are. Like, if I'm being an asshole, like your time is the most important time in the sense of like where it's being spent for the business. And so. Other people, unless it's an emergency or there's really no other way to make it work, other people can make it work. If you only have meetings on one day, for example. Mm-hmm. Um, they can shuffle their schedules. Yeah. Um, my ops team, for example, if I need a meeting to change, if I say I'm only gonna do meetings on this day, my ops team can move their schedules around so that my, my meeting day is that day within reason, obviously. But that's another practical, maybe not small in the sense of it might take a while to get there, but that is a, a practical and really important thing that goes back to how is your time being best spent? If your time, if you're visionary and you're spending time in all these meetings, that's taking you away from true visionary work, which is likely holding your integrator up from being able to do their work. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, three times outta 10, the visionary is the bottleneck. That's what happened with us. You were the bottleneck always. You were doing too much in too many different directions. And I'm thinking back to like. Um, some of the masterminds I've been a part of, and I'm hearing like you're, you're doing way too fucking much. Like yeah. You're supervising, you are like over, you're directly overseeing eight different people. That's too many. That is too many. Or I'm thinking about Molly, she's supervising, you know, how many interns and sued too, and doing all this. Like, that's too much. Too much. That is not a good use of your time. You need to pass that along to someone else and clear up your schedule so that you can do these bigger. Honestly, it ends up being more project based things. Mm-hmm. Because those are the things that take a lot of time to dig into. Um, there are important meetings, but not every meeting is important. Mm-hmm. And I would say if you're a leader, you probably have three, have four that really important meetings that should stay on your schedule. Anything more than that, get it out of the way. You don't need it. Yeah. Someone else can do it. They can update you on it. Maybe that meeting doesn't need to exist at all. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Probably that. I think there's something about, uh, one more thing that you just said that made me, it was a thought I had earlier, so I think I just wanna close it out in my brain. But the bottleneck piece, that part of like, um, if there's a practical shift of visionary could make tomorrow being something like looking at your calendar and, uh, juxtaposing it with how you work best. I absolutely work best with large, uninterrupted hours of time. Like that's how my dissertation got done is I went to a hotel and I stayed by myself for days, like multiple times over the course of however long to just do that. Like that's all I did all the entire fucking day. I woke up, I got breakfast, I started and I did it until midnight and I did the same thing the next day. You know, that's ideal for me. And, um. If I know that about myself, then I know that I need days where there's literally nothing on the schedule and it's just time for me to do whatever I want to do in that day. Because there's a whole host of shit that needs to get done, that I'm going to want to work on. And then I actually have time to do it. And if I don't do that, if I don't coordinate my schedule to make it reflect more, more reflective of my own, like inner needs for work, my own cycles, then I do bottleneck. I'm the, I am then the bottleneck for anybody else at the practice. Because if it can't move from visionary to integrator, it doesn't get implemented. Or if it moves prematurely, then it gets implemented. Shitty shittily. Shittily, is that a word? Poorly, vast poorly. I like shittily better or, or it comes, it ends up bouncing back to you. Yeah, bro. Yeah, it's like, it's the ethos of like L 10 we or IDS. It's, we solve this problem forever. Yeah. You, when you're doing a project or to do the goal is that you are solving that thing that thing's getting done forever. If it's not done right, it's gonna be bounced back. Yep. Yeah. Or you're just passing on the problem to someone else. Yeah. And that's not gonna be the use of that person's time. Yeah. Um, the only thing we'll add to that is like, um, the, you're a person listening to this and you say, oh yeah, I, I'm gonna schedule nothing on Wednesdays. This is my project day. But then you still put things on the fucking Wednesday schedule. Nope. Don't do that. Yeah. That's a problem. You, you, that's how you, if you're, if you work best that way, you have to protect that time. Do not schedule anything on that day. I'm the first to say I'm a big offender in that day. I haven't had a clarity break on my calendar for a while actually, because I would just schedule over it. I would do other shit instead of it. I would not prioritize that block of times. We can add that to our same page, but it's ideas, it's fine. Uh, it's some, it's feature Taylor, but it's true. If you, if you're gonna do that and that's your, like, obligation as visionary or integrator, Taylor, you've got to, you've gotta own it. You've gotta honor it. You gotta hold that boundary. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Okay, let's do, um, there's two questions. I think I might ask them both and we can just take it and then run, uh, 'cause I know we've been on here for a while, so. Yeah. Um, there are two questions. One is what's sticking with you from this conversation, but the other, I actually like the other one better, is if someone's afraid to have these kinds of conversations with their integrator or their boss, what would you say? I don't feel like this is scary. I feel like this should be a normal, we're just talking. It should be. Yeah, it should be. But this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier with, um. Sometimes you had to push me or you had to like tug me along because maybe I didn't feel comfortable having this level of, um, transparent and direct conversation. If you're, if your people in particular are coming from a world where, um, that kind of direct communication with a superior was not a safe thing mm-hmm. Then you might need to tug that person along. Or you might need to have a conversation about, like, I'm genuinely inviting you to participate, participate in this conversation in a very direct and honest way. Um, hopefully you have laid the foundation of like, just and seeing, but I'm just saying maybe you have, but that, 'cause you always have, but there's still that maybe that fear or that underlying, um, reluctance to, because of power dynamics. I mean like, sure. I think we're on fairly equal putting, but there is still a power dynamic between the two of us. Um, and so being cognizant of that and, um, inviting the, inviting your integrator or, or I guess on the flip side, if I'm an integrator and I'm wanting to have this conversation with my boss, I mean, obviously you gotta know your own. You gotta know what's safe and what's not. But if we're operating through the assumption that it's all, that it is safe and that your boss is, is going to be open, then I would say be bold. Like you've gotta be bold and courageous in having and having some of these confrontations that might comfort bold. Um, but I would also say to that question, like if there's nervousness or reluctance, or if there's. If this conversation isn't happening, I'd be really curious as to why. Mm-hmm. Like, I would wanna know, why, why, why is this conversation not happening? Why are these conversations not happening? What's getting in the way of, of those conversations not happening? And so then you can explore some of the, maybe there is some workplace trauma that someone is carrying, or maybe there is some underlying power dynamic that maybe you, as the visionary assumed wasn't there, but that integrator is really carrying. Um, or maybe you're an integrator and you're assuming like, I did, like this person doesn't trust me. And it was like, that's not at all the fucking issue, but that's about my trust in you is not part of the equation at all. Um, so I think ultimately it comes back to like, I would be curious about, oh, what are the obstacles or the relevance to in, in having that conversation? Because these conversations are essential to the VI dynamic and ultimately the VI dynamic is essential to the long term success such your business. So if there are things getting in the way of, of the, of that operating, that's your startle figure. Mm-hmm. What is getting in the way and why? And then let's talk about it and let's figure it out. Does that answer your question? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I love that. I can't imagine not having just, yeah, that's you Tara, though, like, it's so, it's just such a, I think you've said that before and it's still like, is so baffling to me because this is, um, I, I don't, I, it like, there's not a world, I don't even know how to say this. Um, I can't imagine a, a, like being a boss or a visionary and having my people around me not like, discuss things honestly with me. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Like. Yeah, what the fuck is the point of talking if we're not gonna talk about the thing? Like we have to talk, you know, both of us, like we have to be honest about stuff that's coming up for us, or our blocks, or our resistance or what's working, what's not working. I don't know if there's something about like, it ends up feeling personal. I don't think it ever feels It is. Yeah. But it does. It's not, I mean, I think it, so I think it can end up feeling personal for people, but it, it's not, it's almost like how do you, you know, I don't think that it's personal that oil and water don't mix. Like they're just chemicals, uh, or not chemicals I get are they, they're just, uh, things that don't welcome to science are with Tara, the chemical makeup of them. How about that? Sure. The elemental. Yeah. Yeah. They're elements, elemental makeup of them. Adams and ions, you know, that one, potassium decay. Anyway, they, there's no feelings about them not mixing. Like you're not, it, it's not personal between them. It's like, oh no, you have two different things and they just don't like when you start them, they tend to still separate. I, it feels like the same with me in any relationship. There's just two people with like their own internal makeup and we're just trying to figure out where do we mix and where don't we, like what's over, what overlaps, what doesn't. And so I feel like the more you, the more that that becomes personal. It's like now we have to villainize uh, water because it doesn't mix with oil and like, fuck you water. You know? And really it's like, well that's not very fair. Like that doesn't, that's not fair or right. Or really accurate. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so it's just, it's still, um, I can't imagine not just talking openly about anything within the practice or. Probably very, very, very few things within the practice that I might keep close to the chest. Mostly it's like leadership level discussions and definitely vi discussions. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. So it's beyond, I would hope so, I would hope, I would hope that if you're a person listening to this and you're engaging in this work, that that's not a dynamic. Um, yeah. Hope the norm is just talking openly. Open and honest. Open and honest, Alan. Yep. But if it's not, then like again, it's a, that's a question to explore why Yeah. What's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did like where you went with it, like asking like, what's, what's the block? What's coming up? Like Yeah. Is it personal, is it relational? Is it structural? Like there's no space and time to, is it? Yeah. And then I think what's sticking, what's sticking with me? Yeah. What's sticking with me? Um, I'm thinking about, I'm just thinking about, um, how can we continue, honestly, how can we continue to commit to like. Um, being intentional about who owns what between the two of us, or, um, being thoughtful about like, is this the best use of your time versus my time? Or am I taking this thing on because I think that you don't have time for it, or she doesn't have time for it? Or am I taking this on because this is truly my thing to do? Um, and then I'm also thinking about like, how can I, the VI Diane in a lot of ways should model, um, for the most part how LMA looks with other people. So I'm also reflecting on that often. Am I, am I taking the same principles here and I, am I applying that with my DCO? Am I applying that with my current care? And my, obviously there's a lot of nuance there, but I'm thinking three too. How can I, how can I take these things that I'm, that I'm outlining as like essential with things. Make sure that that's also shining through in my relationship with my, with my DCO, um, or encouraging my DCO to, um, integrate those things in her element as well. So I'm just thinking about like the trickle down. Thats too mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. What about you? It's sticking for you. Yeah. I think that one of the things that has stuck out to me is, um, one, I think it's interesting just hearing your perspective on things like, uh, throughout this conversation, hearing like your angle, your perspective, you know, because we operate so much together, but I don't think a lot of our conversations are like real time sort of problem focused. And, um, not that we don't spend time bullshitting, but they don't typically get very meta. Like, we're not talking about what we're doing, we're just actively doing it together and. Which I, I mean, works, and I will say like anytime there is a, when they get meta, it's almost always in the context of problem solving something. Yeah. And so it feels like we, we do go higher level and it's usually related to something that we're trying to do and solve and work on. And so it feels functional and useful and all of those things. But I don't think we have spent a lot of time talking high level about our dynamic and how things have evolved. And again, I think your perspective about certain things, like it's, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm still sort of stuck on this notion of, at the extreme end being considered a yes man. Yes, man. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And like, and my thought is, well, what role do I play in that? Like what role do I play in our team's perception of you and of the DCO of, of leadership? Basically, how do I talk about. How do I talk or write or whatever about the two of you in such a way? And if we have ultimately, we'll, I think we'll have three or maybe four, you know, depending on, I, I don't think depending, I think just when we continue scaling and growing, we'll have more people on leadership. Um, but like, what's my role in ensuring that the way that I talk about us is unified? And that I, like, how do I seek to highlight that it's not just the Tara show, like it's a a so it's a collective sort of discussion and oftentimes collective decisions. And again, I think a lot of the times we end up on the same page and we're all like collaboratively problem solving. And there is something distinct about, well, where are we going though? Like the direction of all of it is sort of fueled and mostly charted by the visionary. And so there's this weird, like I might say, Hey. This is what I really want us to build and we all maybe grapple and then like go from there and decide and discuss and agree and whatever. But then on a day-to-day level and on a, like, I'm trying to figure out, like there's a distinction between me saying I wanna go to that island and us starting to row in that direction compared to we are operating together on this ship. And I'm not the one that's in charge. Like, I don't, I'm like trusting my, my, you know, I don't know what the secondhand person on a ship is, but like the you, the coxswain, isn't that what it's talking first maybe? No, the Cox Wing is the one who's like first mate bro calling up. Yeah. Okay. That would be you then. Yeah, the coxswain. And I'd be on the side saying like, so, so we're in the, we're in the, the captain's quarters together and we're looking at the map. We're looking at the map together. Yeah. And we're we're saying like, okay, well. What about here and like what the, the wind's blowing in this direction. And we gotta think about the seasonal patterns here. Like we're all contributing, looking at the map together, and we know this is the direction we wanna go in. Um, yeah. But we're all bringing different things to the table, adding that into the decision making about how we might encounter things along the way, or maybe we need to make a detour on the way to this ultimate destination. Yeah. And so it feels like even if I'm the one, so hypothetically, before anybody even gets on the boat, I say, this is where we're going. Like this is the, this is where we're going. So if you wanna come on then come on. You know? But once you're on, like the input is now. It's not just me telling people what to do. I feel like I tell very few people what to do, which is my preference, honestly. Like, I don't, I don't want, I don't wanna do that, you know? So I think there's just something like, um, I don't know, I don't know about rattling around, but like a poke or a scratch or like something now that I think is gonna be, it's like caught hold. Um, that I am, I'm curious about, I'm curious the team's perception. Yeah. I'm curious about like, how I talk about it and the assumptions people make or, and also if it's like, no, most people see you and Molly as their boss, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's like, yeah, uh, Tara's unreachable, not in a, like we don't, we don't, we don't look at her when we walk by, you know, not in that sort of way, but in a, like, no, she's not gonna know, like, just go to Taylor, which again is kind of my preference. So, yeah. Anyway, I think that's something that's like, I guess the two things are the realization that we don't really have a lot of meta conversations about the BI relationship and like just our roles, you know, unless it's grounded in a current problem. And then the second thing is the like, people potentially thinking you're a yes ma'am. Again, that's an extreme language. Also pointing out that person was likely the wrong person. Not likely. Like that was the wrong person. Were so, they were also like, I wonder if that's reflective of that person's the wrong person. Like Yeah. Yeah. When we talk about gets it once at capacity, like they, they like truly didn't get it. They not only did they not get the role, think they wanted it, they thought they didn't want it, but they also didn't get like the vision. They what it is we're here to do. Like they, they didn't get it. Yeah. And, and that's okay. Like, not everyone is gonna be mm-hmm. You know, the right fit, the right person, the right seat for the organization. Yeah. Sometimes people aren't gonna get it. That's okay. Yeah. But they're probably not gonna stick around or they probably shouldn't stick around because Yeah. They shouldn't stick around. Whether they do or don't. It's like, yeah. Yeah. You, you want people on the boat who get it, who understand at least the general purpose of where we're going. Yep. Yeah. And who want to go there, like Yeah. Who want to, yeah. Ultimately. Yeah. And we're gonna contribute to getting in that direction, however that might look. Yeah. Not delegate everything to people and like. That shouldn't not delegate things to people that they shouldn't be delegated to, like at the, you know. Yeah. There are no tickets there. There are no passenger, there are no passenger tickets for this ride. Mm-hmm. The rats and the hall, they're the passengers. They just scurry aboard. The stowaway. The stowaways. The stowaway. Yeah. We don't know who they are. The little buggies. Those are our passengers. Yeah. Um, all right man. Thanks. T dog. Massive, massive thank you to my integrator Taylor. Colloquially known as TD Dog for the Masses Dog. I don't know. Anybody else calls you that, actually People Oh yeah. Some some people do. Yeah. I'll get an email. Hey, T dog. Oh, that's so funny. Okay. Mostly it's mostly tea. It's mostly tea. I get TA lot because that's how I find my emails, which is funny 'cause I just, it's just a laziness thing. I don't wanna type my whole name. Uhhuh. Uhhuh, but. That's so funny. Okay. Well thank you for being here with me for, I think as per usual, showing up, being honest, being real, being candid, shooting straight, not bullshitting. I can't think of any others. What's the, what's the real world tagline? It's like something getting real. Oh, people stop. Yeah. What people stop, stop, blah, blah, blah and start getting real. What? What the hell is it? Yeah. It's real world. Okay. I gotta google it real quick. Yeah. Okay. When people stop, it's not stop being fake. When people stop being polite and start being real, what happens when people stop being polite and start getting real? Okay. For real though. We stop being polite. Start getting real. Yeah. I still think you can't be polite and real at the same time. So, uh, I think, I guess it depends on how you're conceptualizing politeness. I think about it being very rooted in like, um, like patriarchy and sexism and like politeness and meekness. Like, I'm not interested in being polite. I think you be kind. I think you be kind and respect. But that, that doesn't actually, politeness to me feels like thin and veneer and fake. Like, I'm just being polite and saying to be polite. Yeah, you can, you don't have to be polite. You, you do have to be kind and respectful. Yeah. I'm, I'm done with that. I'd prefer that too. Yes. Um, okay. Taylor doesn't have anything for You'all, just as an f yi. I don't think she's selling anything. Do you have any, any plug? There's no, um, no plugs. No. Um, okay. Okay. But I, what I will say is that, um, you, if you're a frequent podcast listener, you've already heard about her. 'cause I've talked about my integrator on here, like randomly. Who knows? I don't know when, but I know that I mentioned y'all and also if you are in the ES Mastermind or have done any of that, I'm, I, Taylor is being more involved in that. So anybody who's in the mastermind currently or seeking to sign up, I think that your presence will continue to grow with the masterminds, which is fucking cool. And also just in case it's not obvious, Taylor is the one that makes sure. Shit gets done. Like I feel like you have the glue to the bricks. Like if I have the blueprints and I'm like the bricks and the layout, you're like, do the mortar. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I guess not glue. It would be more like mortar mortar. Sure. If you wanna really get into construction into the details. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I, um, I love talking about it. I love, um, I actually love having these, I don't have, I have three very young children. I don't get to have adult meta conversations ever. Uh, so I love it. Um, yeah, same. Yours are and I happy to continue. Yeah. Young, young, like just turned three and then two six month boys. Yeah. I mean mm-hmm. Anybody You're fucking in the thick of it. I know you're same, but like not quite the same. 'cause it's, you know, eight, five, and two and all halves. Eight and a half, five and a half, two and a half. So, okay. Anybody else who is wanting more behind the scenes? Anything? Real talk about leadership, EOS, culture, um, feedback, people, issues, conflict, et cetera. Make sure you are subscribed to the podcast. You get any new episodes to drop, they come directly to you. And also if you subscribe, you're helping more people who need the message stumble across it, which is great for them and hopefully helpful for them as well. So thank you again, Taylor, for joining me. Everyone else, it's been real. It's been fun, and I will see you next time. Thanks. Bye.