Latest / A Level Playing Field / SWF Chair Vivienne MacLaren on ambition, finance and the future of women's football I A Level Playing Field I Episode 27

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SWF Chair Vivienne MacLaren on ambition, finance and the future of women's football I A Level Playing Field I Episode 27 · A Level Playing Field

• 0:00
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• 0:06
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• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to a level playing field.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Cheryl Smith alongside Alison McConnell and today we've got a guest for you.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: We've been wanting to get on for quite some time, and I have to say, also as a person who's supported the podcast since the beginning, you know, online and in person.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been amazing.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: We are joined by Scottish Women's Football chairperson Vivian McLaren.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm delighted to be here.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I am a huge fan of what you do, uh, and yeah, really happy.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as we record this, it's absolutely miserable outside.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So also thank you to you for taking the time.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Come and speak to us uh today.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we really appreciate it.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, I think everyone listening will know you and your role and what you are.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: But could you just give us a kind of an insight, first of all, into your relationship with football and where that began, you know, back when it began and what that was like?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I my sister and me have always been really, really sporty.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as in we just did everything like we played, went to Merrill primary in the in the South Side, always played sport.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like my mum and dad brought us up, like, do whatever you want to do.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I never felt that because I was a wee girl I couldn't do something, you know.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we were play I was in the I was the first girl in Merrill primary school football team, and she was the second you know, a few years later.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So always loved football, always played football.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: When I went to high school, I played hockey, and when Lona went to high school, she played continued to play football, and she played for loads of clubs like East Co Bride and whatever else.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of her friends played football as well, and in that era, you know, you've got Joe Love, Julie Fleet and Rhonda Jones, Joelle Murray, Stacey Cook, all those people.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So Shelley Kerr.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I used to quite often go with her to watch them, you know, and if you know you think about, you know, it's almost like was women's football actually still banned in the 90s because you know they were in terrible pitches, men's shirts, all that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: But you would go and watch them play week in, week out, and and I always thought, you know, why is it like this?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: These these girls are putting in so much effort to go and play training all the time.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went to international games because a lot of her friends were in the Scotland squad as well.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember Vera Pow, so when Vera Pow took over specifically, um, and it was Bert Van Lingen's wife when he was at Rangers, it she was a brilliant player, obviously.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember uh what she did, you know, in terms of strength, conditioning, nutrition, diet.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: That never happened before for the for the women's team at all.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember what watching them um play in at Livy Stadium and they had the men's shirts on, and it was just you know, and I and so it was a a decent crowd at that point, but I think you're constantly thinking, well, why are they not treated the same way?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I've always just loved sport, like I played just about every sport when I was wee.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I still play hockey.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like watching sport, football's always been you know, and it really important to me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think Lorna went to Glasgow City and played there for a couple of years, and so I I was around all of that period when you know that the the club was set up, when they started to do well, they started getting voted, and yeah, and then kind of fast forward um to 2014.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: The full like Scottish Women's Football Board was restructured.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you had Sheila Begby, the legend that is, who was head of Women and Girls Football SFA at the time.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: She embarked on a on a programme of kind of review and change for how SWF needed to be structured.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Leanne Dempster was involved in that as well, and that was great to have that external because Leanne would have told you at the time she didn't know much about the women's game, but how can she bring in those learnings from the men's game?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a big group that looked at structuring boards.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because I think a lot of boards, even nowadays, and a lot of men's clubs, they are not balanced.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have business directors, you need to have football directors, and the the full kind of uh setup was restructured.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you had business directors, football directors.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I joined as Media and Comms at that point, and you know, you think that all right, this is you know what we're looking at here in terms of income and budgets, and at that point, you know, SWF ran everything, Scottish Cup, SWPL, all the other, all the other levels.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a lot of work because there were there was like a part-time administrator, that was it for the whole game, and that was only in 2014, so you're not talking very long ago.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh usually on boards your your strategic direction and then your support in the teams to deliver that and and and and add in value where you can't.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: We were all like sleeve rolled up constantly, like uh just to actually start to build because I was thinking you know, there was no income essentially apart from a small uh contribution from the Scottish FA at the time.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, why would anyone want to invest, you know, with my marketing hat on?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Why would anyone want to invest?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, would that the brand at the time was uh a yellow stick person in a blue badge, and there was one page on the SFA website about SWF, so it was bonkers.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I joined the board then and was appointed chair in 2016, I think, and which is quite 10 years, which is quite a long time.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Ten anniversary.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you very much.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: At least I remember that one.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but essentially it was like starting from scratch.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking, you know, with a commercial head on, we need brands, we need an identity, we need social channels, we need a website, we need, you know, what what are our values, what what do we stand for?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I basically called it our favors to get really good designers that I knew to kind of help.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we created a new suite of brands, we had the website set up.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was literally sitting putting policies on the website before it went live, you know, and it was really hands-on.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, we got our first ever sponsor in 2016, which is only 10 years ago.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny as well, even mentioning Vera Powell.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember Vera Powell at first just being referred to constantly as Bert Van Lynn Lennon's wife, like she was just constantly she'd had this glorious career, yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Over sponsoring, she was just like uh yeah, anytime she was referred to in media circles or anything, it was just Well, I'm like his wife.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like look at her career.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's quite extraordinary, actually, when you you think even culturally, where we were, then that'd be what 15 years ago or so.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like the the difference even between now and then.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, the games maybe come uh accelerated at quite a pace across the last decade or so.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: E even culturally, I'm not saying it's not it's still obviously got a lot of work to do.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but there has been progress made, you would have to say.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh definitely, and that's in spite of you know uh closed doors, you know, uh along the way a lot of the time, you know.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh essentially we were we're thinking that we just need to manage this and get all of this done.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think there are or there were people out there who were not really that well, why should we support that?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we we just worked to mark to mark to mark to mark to mark and you know, built as much as we could.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And SLBF grew because of the income we were bringing in.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the income went to clubs, um, but we used that income to be able to bring in more people, you know.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, it's it's actually crazy.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've kind of grown organically with all the work that we've done, and I always think about it as being the best for the whole game.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So everything that we do I want it to have a positive impact everywhere else, and that's why we've got such a great relationship with SWPL.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we always planned that SWPL would be would need to be a separate entity at some point.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've got a great relationship with Shirley and the guys at the Scottish FA and a lot of the guys in there, so we worked together really closely, but back then we were a kind of little island uh on our own, and I think people started to take notice when we got a big sponsor in there.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I know 2018 we signed the first ever broadcast deal for women's football in Scotland.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, that's only eight years ago, and I think people started to kind of sit up and go, wait a minute, that's actually working quite well.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm really proud of everything that we've done, but but we still continue to do as much as we can to support all the other parts of the game, and that's why I think women's football is different, it is a family, and you know, people said to me, Oh, you know, when the lioness is won, I said that's fantastic.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because if the lionesses won, the spotlight is on the women's game, and I'm absolutely delighted.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's slightly different, I think, in the men's game, but for us it's like it's it is a big football family, and you you know, I remember Baroness Sue Campbell, who was the um the head of uh women and girls football at the FA, she was um absolutely brilliant.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like we went down to Waimerley to talk to her, she brought in all of our people that managed the leads just to get insights and learnings.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and everyone's just been really, really supportive.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually bumped into her at the Commonwealth Games at the netball.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like Baroness Sue.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's the chair of a normal thing to say.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, honestly, she's uh the hydro or very hydro debate.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: We we were lucky enough, it was the women's sports collective, so we were lucky enough to get invited to to go to the netball.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: We were up getting a cup of tea or whatever.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Baroness Sue?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, How are you?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And she's so lovely.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so she's the chair of England Netball now that she's retired, but it is very much everyone you'd probably don't see as that because it's happening behind the scenes, but the amount of people that are so supportive to what we're trying to do and will happily give you advice, support, point you in the right direction.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's been something that's been really important to the growth, I would say, of the game.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: See, when you think back then to 2016 when you first went into that role to now, ten years later, what would you say is the biggest change that's happened in terms of like the landscape of women's football?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a difficult one.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that having probably internally and externally, ASW of having a staff team huge, having you know, where Fiona McIntyre is our first executive officer, brilliant, to have leadership and to have actually a staff group who you know we are actually the only organisation that is dedicated to women's sport in Scotland because all we do is is women and girls football.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um but to have a staff team, game changer, because as I said at that point, it was like it was almost like a startup.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: All of the board, we were working, you know, we're all we're all volunteers, we're working constantly to just do the basics, you know.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think from that point, internally having a a team of people with clear roles and responsibilities and strategy, all that stuff.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Externally, I think um I taught I often talk about culture in Scotland and how you know my parents brought us up that we could do anything, and I've never questioned myself at any point, and never said, Oh, well, I'm female, I can't do that, and I am forever grateful for them.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually said I always talked to them, I said, What was it?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, just let you go on with it, you know.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that there's a lot of girls and women have been brought up in a totally different way, and they and they will be and they question themselves and they think that they're not good enough to do things.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think the culture's got a long way to go, but I think it's definitely shifted a bit.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, you know, as I said, the FA and what they've done, you can't help but notice the growth there when you look at um, you know, within the X amount of years that England had hit all the heights that they needed to hit with Baroness Southier driving that, that impacts because you've got the spotlight there.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think um I remember SWPL, you know, we wanted players to play for something that meant something, you know, that what is SWPL?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: What does it stand for?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than just, you know, religiously training, turning up and playing, you know, we wanted to bring make the game a bit of a spectacle.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: So any of the finals, all of that stuff, you know, we live streamed the SWPL League Cup final in 2016 on YouTube.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: No one was doing that in football at all.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we did it and it was great.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it brought a bit of a spectacle to things.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even if what no matter what level of the pyramid that you're at, if they're semi-finals, finals, we always make sure there's a really nice plinth.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: We always make sure that we've got you know the best um officials there, that the teams are treated as they should be, you know, as if they were playing in a professional game in terms of the match arrangements, all of that stuff.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you and SWPL players in particular, if they feel even in those days they weren't getting paid, you know, at all.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Joelle Murray had her job that she used to go to at like six in the morning, you know, and remember Nick Nicola Doherty was you used to get up at five and go and work in Edinburgh and then train at night.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, making them feel that they are part of something professional, so you don't need to be paid to act in a professional manner.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that you know, certainly clubs like Glasgow City have always set that bar, and when you get that into the players' mindset, they start to really um invest in what it is that we're trying to do.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Fast forward now.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, clubs are recognising that women are half of the population and they probably need the same amount of thought, investment, and care as men and boys do.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are players, a lot of players getting paid now.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I always wanted to have a situation where if you played in SWPL, even in those days, we would have players going to England, Iceland, you know, America, your Rhonda Jones was it FA?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: In the search for professional contracts.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at Julie Fleeton, you know, MVP of that the season that she played over in the States, but they were all going to Iceland and all over the world way back then.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so for me, being able to give players an option now to say, well, actually, I could stay and play in Scotland, or I could go down to England, or I could go abroad.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have that in those days, and I always felt that that would be a big milestone to hit.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: We do have that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Are the levels where other clubs are paying?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not in some cases, but we've still got that there.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's probably the biggest change.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think a lot of the the traditional men's clubs involved in the game.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the majority of them are committed to looking at you know, basically quality guys, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Women and girls, men and boys.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Let's look at you know how we actually are able to provide a pathway.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are some clubs that I believe are not, um, and I think they're just doing it because they feel that they need to have they need to.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that is exists just a box ticking exercises?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do, 100%.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it's a shame because I think you can spot the clubs that are box ticking.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it may look wonderful on the outside, but I actually, you know, still got a a lot of great um relationships in the game and you hear things, and you know, it's uh it shouldn't be hard for girls and women to have a solid pathway in this in this country.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our pathways and all the work that Scottish FA would do as well are really good.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really you're seeing so many young players coming through, which is fantastic.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there is still a cultural thing, there is still an investment thing.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: There is, you know, if I hear anyone talk about ROI from women's football in 12 months, you know, you need to be strategic.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have a five-year plan, a 10-year plan.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, whether it's just for people who are listening, just to explain what ROI is.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, just in case people don't understand.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's understand what that's return on investment.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are in business or comedy, you know, you'd be looking at, okay, well, if I'm investing this amount in staff, I want to be able to get a return because I'm able to bring in clients, for example.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in a football capacity, traditionally in the men's game, it would be where do we get income from when we're investing?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be season tickets, TV deals, sponsors, all of that stuff.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: We we forget, many people forget that we're playing catch-up in the women's game.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was banned for 50 years, and I don't like to reflect on the past, but that that set us back significantly.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if you imagine, you know, the national team was only really, I think, rec will really could have supported by the Scottish media, I think from 98, something like that.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's not very long ago.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to play catch-up here.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in terms of levels, we were at a similar level to England, but they've just cracked on it and and you know, pushed forward.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: But ROI is if I put a million pounds in to this, I would expect to get more than that, maybe over a three-year period or a five-year period.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to get a return on investment in a year unless you're investing in markets and whatever else.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, from a women's football perspective and men's football, how many clubs down the tours talk about ROI?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not very many.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a phrase I hear around the women's game, you know, it takes time, it takes a lot of time, and you need to be committed to doing that for five years or even ten years.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: It can't be, oh, we've invested for a year, didn't work.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's all about you know, you can't just implement a structure and not make mistakes.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: You have to learn and find out what worked, what didn't, what players do we need, what are the coach stuff, what is that balance like?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a big undertaking.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, even if you look at the big clubs in England, um they haven't made money overnight, it's been a kind of long-term project for them, and now you see some of them really getting in massive big sponsors.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, look at what uh London City Lioness has announced yesterday, the biggest ever front of shirts sponsorship, which is bigger than a lot of Maine's premiership front of shirts.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's time for our player of the week, sponsored by Nutmeg Magazine, the home of brilliant football stories.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Check out the latest issue at nutmegmagazine.co.uk.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: This week's player of the week, sponsored by Nutmeg, goes to Izzy Young with the Spartans forward netting a hat trick as they claimed their first win of the SWPL campaign with a 3-1 victory over Aberdeen this weekend.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was our Nutmeg Magazine player of the week.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: For more great football writing and to order the latest issue, visit nutmegmagazine.co.uk.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a really interesting exercise actually in marketing and and what they've done, uh, London Lionesses, and you think they're backed by the winner.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's a small matter thing.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: But when you consider what they are competing against in London, so you've got Arsenal who are probably like the the poster club for women's football and what they've done across the last decade.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: You've got Chelsea who are uh in a similar elk in in similar vein, and then you're so you're competing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And though those waters, and yeah, I I don't think you can discount the the milk and air backing, uh, which is uh quite significant, but just the the manner in which they have that is what they've done.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I suppose the key is you've started with money, yeah, and then you've been able to go and attract uh money coming in, financial support and structural support that will then allow it to wash its own face.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I suppose you need that initial investment, and that's the big issue for so many clubs.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose for Scottish clubs, too, you're talking there about the the ROI and everything.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: That I think one of the big issues that the women's game has is that you don't have a player trading model.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the way you do in the men's game, you have a very substantial player trading model.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you look at the the bigger clubs, even just in the the the window that's just passed there, like Celtic have probably been the best club at recycling, yeah, you know, in terms of just maximising revenue through the initial investment.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: He'd go back, we could go through the whole list of players.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: But you think in the women's game, that strategy just is very, very difficult, and you can see it slowly beginning to move, not really so much here, but in Europe and and globally internationally.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: You can see like FIFA actually published these uh you know the the global transfer report by annually, and you can see the growth of the women's game, but it is obviously it is a billion miles away from where it is.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: But that will that will event it will grow and it will develop, and it's about that will become a stream for Scotland, it's just how you how you it's definitely infancy, and I know it's being looked at.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's being looked at because quite right, why can't uh home why can't clubs develop homegrown talent in their pathways and actually profit from it?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Look at how many players could just this summer have left to go to to England off the top of your head, you could name a dozen, like you know, you've got Kathleen McGovern, you've got Hayley Adams, you've got some teen in England as well, some to the second tier.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: But that I I think that maybe just illustrates the disparity financially because it does you're you're you have players who are saying, Well, I can go and make a much more substantial living for them.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: If I was reading about averages, um average salaries, once you're over 23 in England, you're talking an average is about 45k a year.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very good idea.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because you probably get your accommodation, you probably get a car, so you're literally not having so if you're in your mid-20s, if you're in a mid your mid-20s, that's a very good salary, you know.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like anywhere but for for an athlete, you think there's nothing in Scotland that could compete with that at all.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, there's not there's nothing in the top flight that would encourage you to say, well, I'm going to be able to get that kind of lifestyle and financial rewards from staying in the top flight.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's that income channel needs to be really looked at.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know it is being looked at, but imagine if that started to actually be firmed up a bit more, where actually every time a player went away to another club, we were getting the benefit of that in Scotland and getting the compensation, yeah.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: 100% compensated in an advantage.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are clubs uh who have had compensation, um, or you know, I think there's a lot of goodwill out there as well.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, when players are moving it, I don't think there's anything like that and then stone, but that needs to happen for me because if you as you see, if you look at you know, your mere McCauley's those types of players really exciting, yeah.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: But Emma Watts in a few years down to Manchester United.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like every season you have a stream, and this summer has been particularly notable for it.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think obviously with the cuts that have taken place across the the SWPL, I think uh you saw Hearts lost a team essentially that went south of the border, Hibs lost key players, Celtic lost players, Rangers lost players.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you look all the top five teams, all lost players.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Glasgow City, not quite so much down to Ireland.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: We've lost a few players wide in the field, but yeah, a lot of players leaving to go and play in England for very obvious reasons.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and again it's a positive thing because most of them are Scottish players, yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you think about it, yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we're we're doing something right in how we're developing our players.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And even when I was speaking to Rose and me and Rose talk a lot about you know, I think Rose should be a pundit actually, because the insight that she gives into isn't getting Rose really another friend of a podcast, a friend of the podcast.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: She was the only episode we did in a pub, which was you enjoyed that, didn't you?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't say insinuate.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think you almost did a lock in afterwards.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that would be Rosey's influence.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: But but she was saying how she can see, in especially the young the younger age groups, the positive impact that being coached properly is having.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's across quite a few games that she's seeing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: She said the younger players are playing in a much more um mature way, and she did she links that back to the fact that a lot of the big clubs they are being coached properly rather than just being all right, well, we've got a girl section, crack on, no structure, you know, no plan.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, let's hope that clubs can start to generate an income because if you think you know that's a massive, massive chunk of of money that's not coming in at the moment.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any kind of concerns what Alison was talking about the financial situation that they're in at the moment with like hearts and other clubs making cuts to budgets and stuff?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any do you have concerns about that?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's your thoughts on where we're at at the moment with that?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I do, I do have I am concerned about it because so, for example, if you if you look at Hearts, that was a perfect five-year plan.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: They got promoted from PL2 in 21.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: They win SPL PL1 in like 26, it's absolutely incredible.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was I was pretty surprised and disappointed that that's what's I don't know you know to what degree budgets have been cut.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you know, actually there's more resource internally being allocated because that that quite often happens where at clubs you might have more resource internally allocated to the women's game, um, who maybe cover other aspects within the club.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what what's happening, but I think it is.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you look at the Scottish Power deal, that you know we worked on that for a good couple of years for the original deal to come in, and I was you know, we were speaking to them when we had SWPL as well at the same time and the Scottish Cup.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: So the time it took for Scottish Power to approve the deal, obviously things had changed, but we were able to still say, well, SWPL is now in this environment, Scottish Cup is in that environment.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually went down the kind of SWPL, SWF um kind of deal with Scottish Power.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So they have been investing in both of these really important parts of the game, which is fantastic.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the biggest investment that we've had.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they've renewed as well, so you know, uh, and that's Ebidrola, and Ibidrola only invest in women's sport, they do not invest in men's sport, um, which is again a hugely refreshing approach.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think they sponsored the Spanish men's team when they won the World Cup, and then they were kind of like, we've hit the heights here.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So these spot I think they support you know loads and loads of different sports all around the world, and it's focused on women and girls.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, that investment was with the James Anderson money that we managed to bring in during COVID, which was the biggest investment in the game at that point.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was 250k, which was absolutely brilliant.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then now everyone's talking to James Anderson, which is fine.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: But we brought that in, Fiona and the guys.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the eBidrola investment, that the amount of money that we are working so hard to bring into the game has gone up significantly, right?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you were to map it from 2016 to now, it's gone up significantly, and that's that we still very much focus on that.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've got Barclays and lots of other sponsors, and SWPL are looking to bring in as much as possible as well.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I love the Ebadrola Scottish Power Deal because they're seeing it as covering the key parts of the game, and so we work really close together, it was nice, and they do not write a check and walk away.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're like you can see that they're visit like visibly and negatively very involved in everything.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can see you can see honestly.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I love it and constantly invested in it, they're constantly so proud of what they do and what we what we all do, um whether it's Euro grassroots, whether it's SWPL, they they just absolutely love it.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um I actually worked for Scottish Paris, my first job out of uni.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I worked there for four years till about 2000, something that's my age.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually a lot of the guys that I work with are still there, and it's been absolutely amazing to and we didn't get the deal because I knew them.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was all it all went those different people, but it's been so lovely to actually hook back up with a lot of those people, and I know how they think, and I know how the business thinks, and they just absolutely love it, and they love to see the game thriving.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, so we're putting we're getting more money in the top here for the clubs, and Fiona's working really hard, and Hannah and all those guys to do the same thing, so it's disappointing when you hear that clubs are actually reducing their investment.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It really is like and and and perhaps there's a reason for that, I don't know, but when we're trying our best to bring in as much as possible in, you would want the clubs to continue to invest.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all clubs, it's just some clubs that you hear of that are cutting budgets back at a point of really important pivotal growth, you know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think the SWLC last it's every year it's been brilliant, but yeah, it's disappointing for me to hear that because all you can see is growth, growth, growth.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: So to pull back is confusing, it's confusing for me.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is it does some of that come down to the fact that they are not seeing immediate growth?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: They're not it's not being reflected in greater, higher numbers of people simply turning up to watch games.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen uh I think you know, you've seen a deterioration in attendancies, even if you start it with the national team.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: You've seen a drop-off of attendancies at games, you see it across the SWPL too, we've seen it at flagship games like the Scottish Cup final, maybe just not attracting the same numbers that they were even two seasons ago.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think two seasons ago it probably.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um that there feels as though there has been a bit of a regression.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Is there almost a panic within not panics maybe too strong a word, but maybe clubs just saying, well, we're not seeing the growth that we want to, and more certainly not seeing a financial return.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not going to continue in the same vein.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's about not being reactive.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be really strategic, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would want to see, what what are the benchmarks that clubs were setting?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's easy to say, oh well, it hasn't done it, but what were your what were your actual benchmarks?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Where the where the where are the sensible benchmarks?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: We were actually talking about this um yesterday.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was on a a call with um the SLPL and SB, we're talking about a lot of work that we'll hopefully do together in the run-up to to hopefully the the 2035 World Cup.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really, really interesting.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, as a marketer by day, when you are trying to get bums on seats, it needs to be a constant thing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just do it a month before a game or weeks before a game.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be building that all the time so it becomes second nature.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the fixtures are announced, I'm gonna get my season ticket, I'm gonna do this.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: What a lot of clubs are doing that quite well, a lot of clubs aren't, and I think that's probably because the marketing people in there are focused on the whole club, not just the women's part of it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you look at what your Glasgow City are doing, all they're doing is talking about what the you know the women's side of it, because that's what they do, and that's brilliant, but a lot of other clubs it isn't a focus, and for me it's not strategic at all.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need to have a plan um of how you are going to maintain those levels and actually what are the benchmarks you want to set.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: But we're talking about this yesterday because um I was talking about the increased engagement in people actually consuming the product on different channels, social media, streaming, highlights programme, iPlayer, whatever it is.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think when BBC Scotland announced the highlights um show, that was one of the most exciting uh times of my uh role at SWF.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like, oh my goodness, like you know, and it gets really good viewing figures.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's uh at some points I know it was getting better viewing figures than the other show.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Allegedly.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but if you think about it's I think it's like if you think about it as like a funnel, and at the top you've got people watching on different channels that you know they're watching uh goals, international goals, two million impressions, uh they're watching club goals, they're what you know, they're they're they're actually looking at our our product in Scotland on TV, on iPlayer.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got that bit, and these people are probably at the top.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think the bottom of the funnel is actually I'm gonna buy a ticket and go to a game, you've maybe got a bit of a bit of effort to just get them further down to then go, I'm gonna buy a ticket.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But all of those kind of indicators are really up significantly when you look at people watching our game.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just different, I think it's different to the men's game, and women's football is different.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh people you can't apply the same rules to the women's game because it's newer and it's just a different type of audience, but more people are watching it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you get these people to the games?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's all about a bit of a joined up strategy to get people to come.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: We've got you know uh clubs uh in the championship getting three, four hundred people to games, um, which is incredible.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um so how do we build that up?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that um in talking to Fiona, uh attendancies are up.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: How do we maintain that consistently?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we support all the clubs to do that?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do we all support the national team to do that?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it has to be a joined up approach.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can't have clubs two weeks before a major game going, oh by the way, this is on, and then they're pushing out social posts about the men's team.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: There needs to be like content scheduling planning where the women's team has equal voice to the men's team because otherwise it gets completely diluted.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: And also, if you look in Europe, you know, you support Napoli or Barcelona or whatever it may be or Milan, um, you are a you are a supporter of that club, and you don't just go to the men's first team games, you go to the boys, you go to the girls, you go to the women's, you are dedicated to that club, no matter who is wearing the shirt.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have that here, and we need to have it because if you support a club passionately, you should you should support every person that wears a shirt to represent your club, and we don't have that, and that's a cultural thing here, you know.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: In Europe, you see eight 80,000, you know, going to see Barcelona because they're absolutely women, they're absolutely over the moon and excited to see this Barcelona team because they watched the other the men's Barcelona team the other day, and they went to see the 19 boys on Thursday night because they love Barcelona, and we don't have that here, and I think again that's a bit of a cultural thing.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a crossover that we don't just don't have it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting what you're saying about the strategic side of it, and you'll know more about this than me because you've worked in marketing and have done for obviously for a long time.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: But when you were talking about it, I was just thinking about the the BB, you know, being adaptive to things and how things change.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: The BBC's WSL show is now going solely onto YouTube, so that with Alex Scott sort of taking it from terrestrial TB, they've taken it off because they obviously think that that's the audience on YouTube, and it's probably pretty pretty smart, but just they've made the change because they've seen you know whatever the the stats that they've seen, and it is it's true, it's but you need the people in place who have that vision, supposed to try and make that happen.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um when we were working with the SSC, we back there first that Scotch Cup sponsored like 2016.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to do like a a roundup um every week of or or or or after kind of every round, you know, like a goals roundup, you know, green screen YouTube, and that was way back then.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think probably ahead of I was I want to do that.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if you look at how audiences are consuming content now, you know, as much as it pains me, a lot of it, especially younger, is is on YouTube.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's the clips, it's the goals, it's like so that makes complete sense.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, we should be saying, well, is there something that we should be doing as a women's football collective in Scotland that's on YouTube?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as I said, you know, way back we we live streamed a final on YouTube and we had like four cameras uh at Spartans, uh, and it was brilliant because no one was doing that at the time.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, should we be doing so?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: But as it's adapting and changing, like how do you engage with your audiences if they're all a little bit different?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where are they watching?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: What how they want to consume?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some people love watching iPlayer, some people love social media, a lot of people love YouTube.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: It makes complete sense, and they will have a huge business case behind why that will be more successful.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um definitely before we finish up, I just wanted to ask you because you mentioned it earlier, Rose Rayleigh.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: We know you've got a kind of a long friendship, the fun and stuff.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: How did um how did how did that begin?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where did you where did you cross down?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually remember my sister talking to me many years ago about Rose Rayleigh, and I was like, who's that?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like and and I and it wasn't until I think was it 2018, maybe when we brought the Scottish Women's Football Awards back, which is absolutely one of my highlights of the year.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: You will be coming this year of Russland.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we honoured Rose and Elsie Cook at our awards, and I met her then, and then I just fell in love with her basically, and so we ended up going to a lot of events together, um, and just we just hang out, and she's absolutely wonderful.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm also a trustee of walking football, and Rose is as ambassador, so we do a lot of things together, and she's just wonderful, and I hear her story a lot because we go to different things, and you know, we were at a thing the other day, it was uh Glasgow Caledon University for 150 years, and she's an honorary doc Dr.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Rose Reilly there as well.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is the University of Scotland, and they were doing like Ted style talks, so it was like four really interesting people, including Rose, and she was on at the end.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember she's like, What's Ted?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, It's just like a format of like you know, and I said, I don't think you need to prep anything, you'll be fine.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: So she was absolutely brilliant, but she told her story in you know, I think it was probably 20 minutes, but they let her have double the time.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And no matter how much I hear it, it just inspires me so much, you know.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: And people you think about challenges and and all of that, you know, she was at one point she was really ill in Italy.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think was it was it meningitis she had?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Oh, you want to play football.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Oh no, I will, I will.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: And when she got home after being in the hospital for like weeks and weeks, uh, and I remember that it really stuck with me.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: She said, you know, just like she taught herself to speak Italian by having the sports paper and she learnt three words a day.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she set herself goals to be fit because she wanted to play football again, and so she would like set herself a goal of like walking to the front door and back ten times, and then walking down one flight of stairs, and then two flights, and eventually she was running around a football pitch, you know, within a certain amount of weeks, and she came back to full fitness one world play of the year, one you know, that's incredible, and she just amazes me because you every time I speak to her, there's little snippets that she's and I'm and I go, What you didn't tell me that, or does it not?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think you know, if there's any example of really overcoming barriers and challenges, you know, she's like belted, expelled.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she she amazes me uh every time I see her.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I'm quite often I'm our chauffeur as well, so we get a lot of uh good chat in the car.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, you get the best chat of them, yeah.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: She's she's just she's just brilliant.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like hers is a story that just needs to keep being told because some people still don't know.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably someone out there who I still doesn't know it.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they focus on that she won the World Cup, and I feel like that wasn't actually a World Cup.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: At that point, that was the only world competition in women's football.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the World Cup it grew into that what we know now.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's people criticise.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I see them going, Oh, it wasn't actually a World Cup.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she she won the league in Italy and in France in the same year, and she's the only player to have done that because they banned it from that moment on because she would play in Italy and then fly to France and play for the team in France and then come back to train, and they won both leagues in one season.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's it's so funny.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: I find that hilarious.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what do you mean?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just flew down, played, flew back to Italy the next day, and then started training again.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you won two elite leagues in a season.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Crack on.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good trivial pursuits question.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, and you're not with the old pursuit.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: How old are you?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Love trivial pursuit.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the uh but they banned it after that.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, oh no, we're not we're gonna make sure that people can't actually train the team in France, just turned up and played, just turned up crazy, unbelievable.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she's um she has some women and it's a great story, and we like to bump into her all the time and hear her chat and everything.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, it's been absolutely amazing to speak to you, it's so interesting to get your point of view and thank you for having me.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was brilliant, we really appreciate your time.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Not at all.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if everyone listening can check us out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and we've got all the episodes all the way back to last season.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some great interviews, some great interviews coming up as well.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, thank you, Viv, so much for your time.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: You are welcome.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you to Alison, and thank you to you for listening.