Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Playlist: Religious Trauma, Episode 2

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SMNTY Playlist: Religious Trauma, Episode 2 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and what can we
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: steffone ever told your protection of ByHeart Radio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: We are back with the part two of this look
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: into Christianity and the marginalized community, and you all are
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: just stretching out it is.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: It is stretching out as sure. Yeah.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: In the last episode, if you did listen and want
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: to recap, we did a quick overview on women and
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: marginalized communities, talking about statistics, breaking down of women in religion,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: and even deconstruction. We talked about the history of it
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: a little bit and for those who didn't listen, you
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: don't really have to because even though it's a part two,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: it kind of does seem to all separate, but maybe
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: you should go back and listen just to kind of
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: get out, you know, a quick basis right the groundwork
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: for it, and also shout out to listener and friend
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: of the show, ray I Hope I said that right,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: who actually sent us a message reminding me that Acts
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: was not written by Paul. It was written by Luke,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: who also wrote the Gospel of Luke.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: So just enough why I did get that wrong.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: But it does have the beginning story of uh huh,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: which is what got into my brain. But you know,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: we like to clarify. Corrections are always good, please let
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: us know. And you know what, today we're kind of
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: having a throwback because when I started this podcast with
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: you as just a guest, we did a whole trauma
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: mini series. It was a lot, and so we're kind
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: of throwing it back with this religious trauma. However, it
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: is a very long conversation and though we will define
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: what it is and kind of give you a rundown
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: of what that looks like, symptoms all of that, we
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: don't talk about the effects of it yet because we
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: have so much to cover. So there's going to be
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: a part three and probably apart four, maybe a part five,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: who knows, there's a lot, there's a lot. And with
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: this we do want to put a content warning. Of course,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about religious trauma in general. We
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: do talk about roles of women. We're not getting into
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: the nitty gritty, but eventually we will be talking about
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: domestic violence, sexual violence, hate language towards the queer community
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: and all of that. So just beware, we're going to
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: put that at the top. And again another we're not
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: trying to detegrate Christianity. Please understand what we're looking at
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: is the dark side when it does affect women and
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: why women are leaving and marginalized community are leaving Christianity
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: behind and it is growing, as we said at the
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: first episode, the amount of people who are leaving.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: So there you go. Content warning.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, I actually just saw because as we record this,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: it was a big fast over just happened, esear just happens,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: And I just saw a big article on CNN about
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: what is going on with the church.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Everyone's leaving up. Well, here we are to give you.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Why, and yes, we are focusing mainly on Western Christianity.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Just a note also, I've never heard this term, so
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: let's get into it. What are we talking about? And
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: we say religious trauma syndrome. This term was first coined
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: by psychologist Marlene Winnell. I hope I'm not butchering that
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, but the basis of it has been
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: around much earlier than that, much longer than that. And
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: as we know, sometimes when we have a name or
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: a label for something, it can help not only understand
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: the type of trauma that someone might be going through,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: about how to work through those types of trauma, and
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: doctor Renelle defines it as quote religious trauma syndrome is
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: the condition experienced by people who are struggling with leaving
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: an authoritarian, dogmatic religion and coping with the damage of indoctrination.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: They may be going through the shattering of a personally
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: meaningful face and or breaking away from a controlling community
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: and lifestyle. RTS is a function of both the chronic
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: abuses of harmful religion and the impact of severing one's
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: connection with one's faith. It can be compared to a
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: combination of PTSD and complex PTSD or CPTSD, right.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: And we've talked about that before and again we do
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: want to emphasize this as harmful religion.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: That is the keynote here.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: So what does that look like? It's similar to other
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: types of trauma. So here are some cognitive symptoms such
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: as issues with self esteem and self worth, perfectionism, poor
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: critical thinking, confusion, some emotional symptoms depression, grief, loneliness, loss
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: of meaning, social symptoms, loss of network, family rupture, social awkwardness.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: And ye know this is describing me to a tea
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: and how that I'm having a moment. Cultural symptoms difficulty belonging,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: information gap and unfamiliarity with the secular world. And I
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: really thought that was important to put in there because
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: if you are from a religious background, you know exactly
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: what that means. I any I did not watch secular movies,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: and I say secular meaning they weren't religious. When I
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: say I did not watch any TV for a full
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: couple of years, I had no idea.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: What's going on in the world. And I was like,
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: what was that? Was this?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I had a good friend of mine in college that
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: did it throughout not only not only college, but high school,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: and so whenever we'd had any references like music, she
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: had no clue what was going on. This. It was
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: such a disruption. And for me coming out of that,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh man, I missed a lie.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I am not cool with the kids anymore.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: And I was a kid.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Implying that you once were.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: It wasn't No, I'm just kidding.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, So let's look at some of the causes of rts.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: According to the article written by doctor Wenell, quote authoritarianism
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: coupled with toxic theology, which is received and reinforced at church, school,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: and home, results in the following. Suppression of normal child development. Cognitive, social, emotional,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: moral stages are arrested, damage to normal thinking and feeling abilities.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Information is limited and controlled, dysfunctional beliefs taught, independent thinking,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: condemned feelings condemned external ocus of control. Knowledge is revealed,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: not discovered. Hierarchy of authority enforced self not a reliable
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: or good source. Physical and sexual abuse, patriarchal power, unhealthy
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: sexual views, punishment used as for discipline.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: And you know, I found that interesting when we have
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: this category about sexual abuse and under it talks about
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: unhealthy sexual abuse, and we talked about it in our
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Purity episode and we're gonna go review it. We're gonna
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: go back come back to it in the next episode
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: because I think it's still important that we address it,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: but that it could be harmful and a formative emotional
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: abuse at the very least, because there's so much fear
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: inundated with it that it causes a lot of problems,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of psychological problems. I know, specifically women who
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: had a lot of sexual dysfunction because of their association
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: to how dirty sex could be or are their unhealthy
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: views of sex. So I really think that's important that
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: we talk about that when we come back later. But again,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to note that. And speaking of abuse,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: let's go ahead and define religious and spiritual abuse before
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: we go any further. According to one wellness side, it
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: is quote when someone uses religious teachings, beliefs, or practices
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: for their own purpose and design to gain or maintain
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: power and control over others. I think that's so important
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: that we remember what this looks like about that power.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: When we talk about abuse, we always talk about there's
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: a level of power there, and there is that with
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: the religious and spiritual aspect. And while we're at it,
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: because I don't think we did this last time, let's
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: define religion and spirituality. Yeah, like I said, we forgot
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the first time round. So according to Merriam Webster, religion
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: is defined as quote a personal set of institutionalized system
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Also the service and
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: worship of God or the supernatural, or commitment or devotion
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: to religious faith or observance. And then spirituality is defined
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: as quote something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: church or to a cleric as such, clergy sensitivity or attachment.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: Two religious values.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, now got that back out of the way, So
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: let's go back to the trauma part.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Right, okay, And religious and spiritual trauma can manifest in
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: different ways, for example, using religious beliefs to control aspects
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: of your personal life including behavior, what you wear, who
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: you date and who you do or don't have sex with,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: what job you have, how you parents, your finances, facing
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: criticism or punishment for questioning beliefs, practices, facing criticism or punishment,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: or reporting mistreatment or incidents of abuse, minimizing our ridiculing
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: mental health symptoms as quote sinfolds and moon it or
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: weak faith.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Right, And again we're going to come back to this
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: because I think especially when we talk about mental health
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: for the longest time, and I was told this myself
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: when I was going through my suicidal ideation and my
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: really dark times, that I wasn't praying enough and there
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: was a level of shame that was placed onto me
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: that I would talk to other people about that darkness
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: instead of talking to God or just keeping it to myself.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: So again we're going to come back to that. And
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: then yeah, we've definitely seen that whole conversation of their
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: possessed or the devils in them.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And as doctor Wornell wrote about the psychic
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: abuse quote, the doctrines of original sin and internal damnation
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: caused the most psychological distress by creating the ultimate double blind.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: You're guilty and responsible and faced internal punishment, yet you
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: have no ability to do anything about it. These are
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: teachings of fundamentalist Christianity. However, other authoritarian religions have equally
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: toxic doctrines. You must conform to a mental test of
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: believing in an external, unseen source for salvation and maintain
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the state of belief until death. You cannot ever stop
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: sinning altogether, so you must continue to confess and be forgiven,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: hoping that you have met the criteria, despite complete lack
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: of feedback about whether you will actually make it to heaven.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Salvation is not a free gift after all. For the
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: sincere believer, this results in an unending cycle of shame
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: and relief.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is the constant. And again, just like she said,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: it's not just Christianity that we see this in. It
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: is definitely across the lines of different types of faith
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: and different beliefs. Again, we are talking specifically about Christianity
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: in our episode but what she's talking about with the
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: religious trauma syndrome, that could be any religion. And from
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: that wellness article we mentioned earlier, here are some examples
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: of religious trauma and we're going to quote them all
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: because I think it's important, because I.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: Think it's going to hit with a lot of people.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: That hit me a lot.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: You are confused about what you are being taught and
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: are scared or uncomfortable with voicing.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: Questions for your beliefs.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: You attack, dismiss, or shame yourself if you have a
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: differing belief or question your beliefs. You are terrified of death, evil,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: the rapture, the devil, and hell. You may have nightmares
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: or reoccurring fears of when the world will end and
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: what will happen after. You may dissociate or feel separated
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: from your body and emotions due to fear of connecting
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: with emotions and constant focusing outward to others and God.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: You constantly criticize and judge yourself and others due to
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: fear of sin and fear of upsetting God. You are
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: afraid of being led astray that's been quotes by the
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: devil or evil, and so you become afraid or critical
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: of the quote outside world, secular world. You feel unable
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: to or uncomfortable with saying no to others.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: And also women, you might be afraid that your body
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: is bad and others should not look at you think
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: you're beautiful into that it is your responsibility to make
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: sure that doesn't happen. Men, and you might be afraid
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: to get too close to one because then you will
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: fall into sin by lusting after her, and then you
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: will have to marry her. You struggle to trust your thoughts, feelings,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and intuition because you have been taught the body is
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: wrong or bad. You attack, dismiss, or alienate others who
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: do not believe the same way you do.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Right and again, like we've left that all in there,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: and I'm sure there's other things that we could add
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: on to that would explain it even deeper or go
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: into the feelings or the fear. The fear is the
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: biggest part to a lot of this, obviously, and these
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: are some of the most dangerous things that can happen
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: which could cause bodily harmed others and or some way
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: of overpowering others because of the spear. When we talked
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: about the shootings that happened in Atlanta, the Atlanta spaw shootings.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: That's exactly what happened.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: He was in so much fear of sinning that this
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: is what his solution was. Because they were apart, These
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: women were a part of his sin. He would rather
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: kill and for some reason that outweighed the whole. Thou
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: shalt thou murder?
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: Apparently, right, right, right, right, Yeah.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: We also want to take a minute to look at
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a different term coined by Reba Riley called post traumatic
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: church syndrome. Here's a quote from her interview with The
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: National Catholic Reporter. Post traumatic church syndrome is the term
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I made up to describe my spiritual injuries after I
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: left my faith in my early twenties. I defined PTCs
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: as one a condition of spiritual injury that occurs as
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: the results of religion, faith and or the losing, leaving,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: or breaking thereof. Two the vile, noxious, and otherwise foul
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: aftermath of set injury, and three the serious term intended
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: to aid serious spiritual healing without taking itself too seriously
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: in the process. In another interview with Time, she says
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: people who leave or are left by their faith lose
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: a lot more than a place to go on Sunday morning.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: They lose relationships with family and friends, social status, tribal approval,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: self esteem. They lose their God, their identity, their certainty,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: their gravity. I know because I lost all of these things.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Right and honestly, there's so much to be said.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: So she wrote a whole book based on her experience
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: and her coining this term.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: But it's true. I've talked about it before.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: When I walked away from what I thought and believed
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: and what I thought was my quote unquote calling, it
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: felt like a piece of me had been ripped out
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: of me. It felt like either a death or a
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: huge divorce essentially, because it took out part of my identity.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Again, it was a third.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: It was a like a double edged sword in that
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: being an adoptee and being told from the day that
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I arrived in the US that God saved me for
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: this purpose, and this purpose was to serve others to
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: tell about Jesus, essentially, because I had to be grateful
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that I was saved physically and spiritually. And it was
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: devastating when I felt that falling apart, when I felt
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: things falling apart, when I came out and realized the
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: things that were told to me was love people were
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: using as a weapon, and especially coming in here, I'm like,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: my whole ideal and I think this is to me
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: being real, literal. I cannot help being literal in that
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: if I'm actually going to help people, then I need
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: to truly help people, So being a social worker, being
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: an advocate, but then even not being able to do
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: anything because there were roadblocks, and there are politics, and
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: it was politics based in church and Christianity, and then
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: on top of that la some of the scriptures saying
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: people were going to hell because of who they were
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: created to be, when I was similar to that. My
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: personality was a very strong, independent woman. That is not
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: what I was taught. It was a good thing, and
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: I was ashamed. And then finding leadership that was like,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, why would I follow you? You were
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: ridiculous and you don't know what you're doing. Just because
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: you have a penis why should I trust you more?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: And it was devastating to see that, and it felt
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: like I had lost an entire chunk of my life,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: if not the whole existence of my life, and trying
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: to start over felt impossible.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: So it made a lot of sense in.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: That, of course, there's an amazing thing when you heal
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: and grow out of it and do what you need
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: to on your own and finding your own spirituality.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Of course, and I said that in the first episode.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not completely atheist in that I don't believe in whatever,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: the karma that you know, the greater good, whatever. I
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: want to know. I want to think that there is
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: a bigger purpose. Of course, Do I believe what I
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: believed back then? No?
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Could I? Ever? I don't think so.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: It is it's been too much and the things that
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I've seen again that faced all those fears.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: And showed me that you could not question.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: How is this big deity so fragile that you cannot
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: ask questions? It was a whole whole part of me
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: that felt lost, and it's still I still struggle with
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: it today. Obviously I've been talking about it. We've been
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: talking about it. How it really put a giant wedge
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: between people that I've known all my life for most
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: of my life, or those who I'm supposed to look
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: up to.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: And it's been a struggle.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: It's been very isolating, and it's interesting to see because
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: now I see femily members of people who are younger
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: than me going do that same thing, and and I
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: hate that for them, but they have to go through
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: it themselves before they understand what it is.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: But yes, I just wanted to share that.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Moving on outside of my sad stories, what does this
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: mean for women and the marginalized community? What does religious
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: trauma look for those who are already seen as not
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: worth as much? Right in one article for Life Afterdogma
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: dot com and by the way, a lot of our
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: articles came from religious papers or religious sites that had
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of conversations, So again I'm not going after
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: religion in general, because they are having this conversation within
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: themselves and they see a problem as well. So I
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: think it's an amazing time to see that people are
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: being open and are willing to ask questions. But again,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: so this is life after Doogma dot com and the
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: writer is Andrew Jesco. I really hope I said that, right,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: I apologize, And he puts it frankly. He says many
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: lead Christianity simply because they are women. The Bible was
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: written by men and for men. God has a penis
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: patriarchy informs the entire biblical worldview. There's no escaping that
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: try as liberal Christianity may, there's only damage control. Women
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: often find much more freedom in schools and the workplace
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: than in their churches, learning they don't have to be
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: quote silent and submissive to men like in many churches.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: They aren't the property of men. Feminine sexuality is not
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: to be suppressed because it's some kind of temptation for men,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: nor is it a service for men on demand. And
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I thought that was an interesting way of putting it.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I do like the line about God has a penis.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Sorry, y'all.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And as we talked about in that first episode in
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: our previous episode, history is not kind to how the
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Bible is interpreted when it comes to women and the
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: marginalized community. And today's debate as the country continues to
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: be split with politicians again weaponizing religion for power.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: There's a lot.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: But as I said at the top, before we can
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: actually talk about how religious trauma affects women and the
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: marginalized community in general, we have to talk about the
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: misogyny and sexism in Christianity.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: So let's start it.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, in her journal, sexism and misogyny and the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Christian tradition liberating alternatives. Rosemary Radford Ruther researches the depths
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of these roles in Christianity. At the start of our article.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: She writes, attitudes towards women are often the results of
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: a quote, patriarchal and a hierarchical reading of the system
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: of Christian symbols as a whole, rather than specific doctrines.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: These readings of a quote system of domination derives from
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: patriarchal slave Ocri sees the social system in which Christianity
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: was born that is a quote, but does recognize that
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: its original intent quote began as a critique of this
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: system that proposed prophetic, liberating alternatives that were then partially replaced,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: which we would argue that the original ideal is what
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: was most likely appeasing for those who are marginalized. Misogynistic
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: attitudes have roots in the Greek philosophical tradition, particularly Aristotle,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and these traditions believe that quote women lack autonomous reason
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: and were therefore inherently inferior and dependent on the male.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And again we're coming back to Paul again many opinions.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Again, I really like being.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Not the only one, love seeing it in writing too,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Ruth writes, quote, but Paul prefers that gender, hierarchy and
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: slavery remain intact until Christ returns, which he had expected
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: to happen very soon, which I feel like happens often
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: most promised things is going to happen real so and
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: it never really does.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Whatever. I'm sure one day we'll maybe we'll be shocked. Whatever.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: And Paul writes in a New Testament that quote, equality
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: in Christ is only spiritual and does not affect worldly
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: gender and class hierarchies. So we wanted to take some
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Bible verses for you as examples, and this was from
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: the New Testament. He wrote, wives obey your husband, and
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: slaves obey your masters, and children obey your parents. Yeah.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: It only continues with this theme throughout, including verses like
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Ephesians chapter five, verse twenty two, quote, wives, submit yourself
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to your own husbands as you do the Lord. Then
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: we go to First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse three. But
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I want you to understand that Christ is the head
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: of every man, and the husband is the head of
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Also
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse eight and nine. Man was
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: not made from woman, but woman made from man. Neither
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: was man created for this sa of woman, but for
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: the sake of man. For this reason, a woman should
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: have a symbol of authority on her head. So this
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: is a debated topic about head covering, so you'll see
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: it throughout all kinds of conversations. Yeah, that was something
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: that happened in my college ministry. There was a whole
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: debate about head coverings. Really uga even wow.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And Ruther goes on to say, the first Epistle of Timothy,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: a disciple of Paul quote, seeks to give the final
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: basis for women's subordination in the Church, and to refute
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: any idea that this subordination had been overcome in Christ.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Women are said to have been both created second after
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: the Mail, and also to have been guilty of originating
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: humanities fall into sin. So here's some more Bible verses.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: First Timothy, Chapter two, verses thirteen and fourteen. Quote for
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Adam was formed first and then Eve, and Adam was
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became the transgressor.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: And with verses and texts like these, the mess which
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: is very clear not only are women's secondary, but they
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: are the reason for evil on earth, their sedectresses and
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: deceivers and easily misled, and their duties or perhaps more
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: along the lines of punishment are quote no authority in
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: church expected to be silent submission to men, and then
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: pain of childbirth.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Right of course, and then of course all of the
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: pain in general. Women just deserve pain, right, okay, And
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: as we continue forward in history, the interpretation doesn't stray
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: far from those beliefs. Saint Augustine distinguishes between quote the
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: spiritual capacity of women's souls and her quote physical nature
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: as female, which is the rest right, not the image
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: of God, but rather images of the body as carnal
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: and prone to sin because we can conceive, right that
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: means we're sinful. And the theology continues with the idea
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: that men are fully formed humans, but women are quote
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: defective humans. Yes, as we're with the rights. Christ had
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: to be male to represent full humanity, and therefore only
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: males could represent Christ in the priesthood, and many would
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: consider God being male as well, or male representing the strong,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the righteous, the angered, the powerful, So therefore obviously he
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: is masculine.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: M And as we keep moving up the timeline, the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Reformation era was not so great for women either. Luther
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: and Calvin quote worsened at the early Christian tradition by
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: denying that women can exercise the power of prophecy. They did, however,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: elevate women's characters a bit by rejecting the idea of
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: women as quote defective by nature, but instead insisted that
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: quote women accept their subordination as obedience to the divinely
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: established social order. And of course, quote rationality and ruling
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: power are seen as male qualities to be exercised by
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: males and inappropriate for women.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, just look at the status of politics today.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: We don't have emotional politicians at all that are men.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Or you know, the whole dating scene is not like
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: rampant with emotional men who get very angry for no
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: reason at all, including like, oh, I don't know, I
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: just saw a wonderful tweet of a woman who got
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: a message, and it was she said, hey, I'm asleep,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I'll respond to you, and he sends a huge, long
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: letter essentially telling her message, essentially telling her that she's
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: missing out, and all he wanted to do was buy
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: her things. Like it was on and on, and then
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: she was like dude, I told you I was asleep
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: that I would get back to it. She wasn't even
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: rejecting him, right, But men aren't emotional and they are
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: so rational, but women.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Just inappropriate obviously. Okay.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So, however, this theological battle of men's roles versus women's
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: roles has been around for years, and I thought because
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: we found several different articles talking about feminism in the church,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: women's roles, and I found one from nineteen eighty five
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: and it's titled women are the Devil's Gateway and it's
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: for the New Internationalists, which I think they did a
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: whole debate for this, and we're going to take a
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: big chunk out of it because again it's too fascinating. Today,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Orthodox Jewish women are still excluded from the praying community
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: and seated behind a screen. Roman, Catholic and Protestant women
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: who want to serve the bread and wine are asked
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: instead to serve church suppers. Women in every congregation still
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: here such phrases as quote God, our father sons of God,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: men of God, and the brotherhood of man. And in
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: this patriarch theology rights American feminist Rosemary Ruther, the male
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: is taken to be the normative representative of a human species,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: the norm for imagining God and for anthropology, sin, redemption,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: and ministry. The female, in contrast, is seen as subordinate
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: and auxiliary to the male. Women never appear in patriarchical
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: theology as representatives of humanity. As such, their normative position
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: is that of absence and silence. When patriarchal theology mentions women,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: it does so to reinforce this definition of her place
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: in the system. Feminist scholars also began to identify the
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: relationship between the sexism women experience that worship and the
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: biblical worldview. The creation stories shared by Christians, Muslims, and
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Jews is a cornerstone of the historical bias towards women.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: According to the Hebrew folk tale, Eve tempted Adam with
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: a forbidden fruit and thus triggered humankind's expulsion from Paradise.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: The identification of women with evil, temptation, and sin thus
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: became a primary ingredient in Christian tradition. While men was
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: associated with the spiritual, the reasonable, and the godly, women
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: was linked to flesh, matter, and the world. Good and
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: evil were given the clear sexual counterparts. According to this
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: very view, women actually cause evil to come into the world.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: As a result, they must atone for their collective guilt
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and redeem themselves.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: And with that the article continues so In the past decade,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: feminists have challenged assumptions that any form of oppression is
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: natural part of the created order, and such devastating critiques
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: of the Judeo Christian tradition have led many feminists to
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: leave established churches and synagogues. A goddess movement has emerged,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: in which women are attempting to reshape ancient worship and
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: celebrate woman's creative power. Spiritual feminism has become an important
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: aspect of the women's movement worldwide. Still, many feminists choose
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: to remain within organized religions. Those who stay obviously believe
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the women's movement can change the church. Christian feminists in
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: particular look at early church history in the life of
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Jesus for inspiration. In the community Jesus gathered around him,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: women were treated as equals, playing central roles in their
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: early church. Jesus told as followers call no man father,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: no man master, and warned them not to quote Lord
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: It over others. So many Christian feminists find affirmation hope
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: in Jesus's life and teachings. Along with other liberation theologians,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: they say the Bible puts God squarely on the side
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: of the poor and oppressed, and that true liberation can
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: only come when women can take their place at the
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: very center of faith as subjects rather than objects.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Right again, we're coming back to a lot of conversation
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: about trying to meet in the middle, trying to re
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: establish what the Bible truly meant.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: And again, there are so.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Many terms within Christian culture that kind of goes from
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: one to another. I as a teacher of the Bible,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I'm putting that in quotes. We talk about the word
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: being and we called it the word being, the living
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Word of God. So in that aspect, the conversation and
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: the ideal was that it grew and it it didn't
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: necessarily change, but it went with the times and the
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: idea that we don't know, we don't know the true
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: intent of what God or Jesus or the spiritual aspects
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: of what it should have been, and that it's supposed
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: to be a guide. Again, we're coming back to the conversation.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I'm getting real deep about literal versus figurative. There's so
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: many things, and we know that that happens with a
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: lot all the religions. Buddhism has that extremist versus more
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: liberal thinking, Christianity, Judaism, all of that has its own
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: spectrum of what they believe is versus figurative, what we
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: should be looking at, what we should be taking as
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: an example of or just a story or a prophecy. Again,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: there's so much to that, and I think women for
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: so long when you look at again, and we talked
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: about previously that if we were looking at the word
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: of Jesus alone, he never comes in with those women
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: or this is and this that has never been his goal,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: and that is not a thing that was ever preached.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: It is very ironic that we have people who sit
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: as leaders of churches saying that their word is the
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: authority versus actual biblical word or truth or what they
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: want to say is truth, which is, you know, the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: idea of Jesus.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: And again, if we take what Christianity.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Was supposed to be today, which is the covering of
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: the things that you couldn't do, as in like you
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: can't save yourself, that whole idea, like you're not good,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: you're not going to be good enough, which both alleviates
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a little bit of responsibility, but at the same time
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: like seems impossible that, like you could have one extreme
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to another. And you know, with that article from nineteen
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: eighty five, and I guess from that paper with Ruther,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: she's been around for a minute and have been talking
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: about this wh minute as well.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Not much has changed.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: The thing that has changed is I think a lot
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: of women have given up and instead of trying to
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: marry those deals together, they are leaving. As we talked
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: about it previously, especially those in the millennial gen Zer groups,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: have truly left. I think one statistics was showing like
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: forty percent of women had enough of the millennial group
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: had had enough and started to slowly walk away. When
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: we look at the depth of stigmas that happens within religions,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: and I'm having it a hard time because there's so much.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of people and good friends who
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: are still very religious and who still are very heavily
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: into church, and I think they are great people, and
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: if they are doing something that makes them feel hopeful
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: and push forward, I love that. I love that for them.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: But what we're seeing today is that's not it we're
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: taking that whole ideal into becoming a fascist state, and
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: that's the scary part of what we're seeing. I keep
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: saying that because I really I know how important religion
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: can be. Again, I have talked about the fact that
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: it really did help me in my darkest time, but
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I also know how detrimental it can be when this
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: type of abuse and trauma occurs. And we want to
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: make sure that we are talking about that in a
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: full stretch and how we need to be aware for
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: those around us and as again as the world is
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: slowly feeling like stepping backwards and speaking of that. Yeah,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: so kind of give you the preview of next episode. Again,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the purity movement within Christianity.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the perfect ideal of mothers.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about domestic violence. Upcoming, we'll be
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: talking about Christian nationalism as well as cults.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: There's a lot, Yeah, there is a lot. There is
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: a lot, and it just touches on so much that
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: we talk about all the time here. So it makes
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: sense to me that it was a multi part series
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: and it will be ongoing, So look out for those
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: episodes upcoming. Listeners. In the meantime, if you have any
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: thoughts on this or any ideas for things we should cover,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: you can email us. Our email is stuffandia mom Stuff
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram or TikTok at
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: stuff When Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: also have a book coming out. You can pre order
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: it at stuff You Should Read Books dot com. Thanks,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: as always too, our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey was very helpful for this one.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Yes did so much. Thank y'all so much, Yes.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: You is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts or my
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: heart Radio, you can check out the i heart Radio app,
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