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Desirous Dreams: Our Private Erotic Encounters · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: There is something about the nether regions, that very first
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: ground-level chakra, that has to do with body and its
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: functions and instinct.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: And Jung is.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Very, very clear about the need to recover our instinctual
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: functions and make them conscious.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Well, as many of you know, back in 2024, the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: three of us published our book, DreamWise. And one of
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: the things that we did when we published DreamWise was
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: we started this special podcast topic that we called Dreamography,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: where we asked you to submit some of your dreams
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: on a particular topic. So we could look at, you know,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the range of dreams on a given subject that come in.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: because we talk quite a bit about this in the book.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: And we are happy to report that the book will
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: be published in paperback, and that will come out on
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: June 9th. So if you haven't had a chance to
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: get a copy yet, or perhaps you want to send
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: a copy to someone, you can get the paperback starting
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: on June 9th in the United States. It will be available.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: But one thing that we realize, we've done dreams about
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: weddings and babies and travel and intruders and all kinds
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: of things. We have not talked about sex dreams. And
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: what an oversight, because that is a very common category
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: of dreams. So we had a lot of fun thinking
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: about these. I said to our social media manager, so
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: should we solicit some sex dreams? And she said, You
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: might want to think about changing the language there. But
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: we did solicit sex dreams from you all, and you
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: guys delivered. We got a lot of really great dreams,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: and we've picked some of them to talk about today.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: But I do want to say that, interestingly, there has
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: not been a lot written about sexual dreams from a
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Jungian perspective. which is fascinating because, again, this is a
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: very common and often important kind of dream for people.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: So we're going to do our best to do it
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: justice today, although it's a big topic, and I'm sure
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: that we will just be merely scratching the surface. So
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: let's start by just talking in general about erotic dreams
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: and what we know about these, what we think about these,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: and then we'll go through some examples together. Okay.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, you said that dreams about sex are
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: very common. And way, way back when, when the Kinsey
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: reports came out in the late 1950s, they discovered that
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: two-thirds of women had had sexual dreams, sometimes to orgasm.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: And men dream about sex just as frequently.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: If not more, perhaps.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Yep. And are physically aroused very frequently. So here it
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: is part of our human and biological functioning. And today
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: we're finally getting around to talking about it. There is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: so much in any kind of dream about sexuality. And
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: from a Jungian point of view, of course, we're going
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: to think about now, you know, what does this symbolize?
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: something is being symbolized by any kind of union that
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: has sexuality in it at all. That we're often using
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the dream maker as using sexuality as a way to
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: represent some life experience, which could be sexual, could be erotic,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: could be having to do with intimacy and connection. Or
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: it's very opposite, something unwanted and that the person, the
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: dream ego, wants to repel. So we're talking maybe about
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: things like intimacy, power, control, repressed desires, aka shadow, representations
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: and experiences of creativity and energy for life. Unresolved tension,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: such as, you know, complex. It could be well-related to
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: very early experiences with caretakers. What has become interjected or
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: embedded in the psyche. And sexual dreams also can represent
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: the union of all of us, of our psyches, our bodies, spirituality.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: It all comes together in the moments of closeness, contact, climax.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: And other ways that these things can be represented are
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: through images or dreams that involve dancing or marriage, weddings,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of union, some kind of union and how is that experienced.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: We would also want to pay attention to Why is
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: this dream happening now? What is it in your life
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: situation now that has to do with sexuality? And the
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: classic must-have component of every dream, according to Jung, is compensatory.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: It's seeking to add something. that is being denied or
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: just unknown. I was seeking to balance something out and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: present an opposite point of view from the one that
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the dreamer may have. So why now and why this dream?
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: And as you said, later we'll look at some of
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: these dreams and see which of these kinds of things
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: may be embedded in it.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know about you, but I have a
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: lot of analysands come in and say like, I have
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: this dream, but I'm really embarrassed to tell you about it. And,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's so common and, you know, dreams
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: that feature sex and the erotic are so full of life.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: They often can be intensely pleasurable and And Deb, just
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: to build on what you were saying, you know, during REM,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: it's normal for there to be increased blood flow to
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: the genitals in men and women, even when we're not
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: having sexual dreams. So it's sort of like, there it is.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: The body is with us as we dream in this
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: very kind of primal way. And there is a kind
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: of inherent link, therefore, between sexuality and dreams, which is
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: super interesting. And, you know, we often feel embarrassed or
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: maybe disgusted or shocked. I mean, some of what happens
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: in dreams is something we would never imagine ourselves doing
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: in real life. And so it can be such a
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: rich realm to explore.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: You know, when you mentioned that of how people are
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: often embarrassed to say, oh my God, I can't believe it.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: The other corollary is bathroom dreams, which I think everybody
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: who pays attention to dreams has had one of those.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: So there is something about the nether regions, that very
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: first ground level chakra, that has to do with body
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: and its functions and instinct. And Jung is very, very
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: clear about the need to recover our instinctual functions and
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: make them conscious. And one way that they appear, I think,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: in dreams is through sexual dreams, bathroom dreams, because there
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: they are, our nether regions, where the body rules. Instinct
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: will have its way. The sensations will be there. and
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: there's a request, please understand me. Well, and Deb, you
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: were talking about the compensatory function of dreams. And, you know,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: one of the things that sex dreams might do is
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: to really bring the body into awareness and even embody us.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Because, you know, when we're dreaming, when we're in REM,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: we're basically paralyzed. And that, you know, we think is
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: so that we won't, If we dream that we're being chased,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: we won't run down the street and wake up six
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: blocks away. It kind of keeps us safe. But that's
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: not so true of our genital region. So as you
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: pointed out, people can have, people can and do have
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: orgasms in their sleep.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, they do.
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  Speaker 2: And so there it is. It's like that's a way
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: that we're actually embodied in our dreams. And that's, you know,
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: pretty much the primary way that that happens. I mean,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: sometimes you wake up thrashing about a bit, hitting a
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: pillow instead of your attacker. But it's an important way
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: that the body might be brought back in if we've
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: become kind of disconnected from instinct and disconnected from body.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: So that is one possible way to understand these dreams.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: And there it is, isn't it? The body will have
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: its way of expressing itself. I think the question is,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: you know, to my mind, I'm thinking, wouldn't that be delightful?
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  Speaker 1: The dream maker uniting with a bodily function to have
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that experience of wholeness, connection.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Pleasure, release.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: And pleasure, exactly. But it can also go the other
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: way of kind of imaging the... an internal sort of
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: saboteur that points to a disappointing or rejecting experience of
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  Speaker 1: connection or other. It's never really fulfilling. It's never really exciting.
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  Speaker 1: You know, something happens where the dream ego feels disappointed
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: or betrayed or.
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  Speaker 2: Or there can be cruelty or violence in sexual dreams.
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  Speaker 1: Exactly. As a representation of the exciting object, the thing
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: that appears promising and seductive and then leaves us unfulfilled
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: and feeling upset in some way. So The experience of
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  Speaker 1: the dream ego is very, very important.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: And I should say another kind of further subcategory of
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: erotic dreams are erotic dreams that the analyst may have
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: about his or her analysand and the psychotherapy patient may
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: have about his or her therapist. That is also common and,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: you know, that can be hard to talk about. But,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: you know, you come and you say, I had a
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: dream about you, you know, and we were doing the
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: deed or whatever.
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  Speaker 1: And Jung says that when that happens, that when an
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Alisand dreams about the analyst, that it's an attempt to
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  Speaker 1: bridge an emotional gap. And I would say that's true
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  Speaker 1: of other dreams about people, too, is what is that about?
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  Speaker 1: Is it reaching out something's wrong? And so the compensatory
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  Speaker 1: function is having sex with the significant other, analyst, partner, friend, boss, anyone.
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  Speaker 1: And of course, Jung selected these woodcuts from medieval time
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  Speaker 1: called the Rosarium woodcuts, where the images over and over
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  Speaker 1: and over again are between a king and queen, man
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  Speaker 1: and woman, in various forms of connection, from shaking hands
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  Speaker 1: to having sex together. So it's a universal symbol of
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: connection or all the difficulties with connection.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and of course, the alchemical stage of conjunctio refers to,
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  Speaker 2: in some sense, the sexual act. In alchemy, it is union.
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  Speaker 2: And we could imagine it sort of being like a
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: kind of chemical union between two substances. But psychologically, coniunctio
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: is perhaps an internal process between different parts of ourselves,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: but it can get imaged as a sexual union. So
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that's another possibility, another possible way to understand these images.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm wondering if it makes sense for us to
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: start looking at some of our dreams. Absolutely.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Let's see what it looks like in a series of dreams,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: what we can imagine and learn from dreams about sex.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Okay. Our first dream, and I have to say it
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: was difficult to pick these dreams, but we did We
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: did have to limit ourselves. First dream comes from a
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  Speaker 2: man who's 37 years old. I'm with a group of friends,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: three females, at a hotel pool. Mutually attracted, one of
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  Speaker 2: the girls and I flirt with and then start making
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: love with each other in the pool. The other two
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  Speaker 2: friends seated by the poolside are aware in a positive
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: sense but are not necessarily focused on the two of us.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: The sex itself is intimate and pleasurable. It is something
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: both meditatively tantric and animalistically lusty. When we finish having
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: sex in the pool, we lay floating together and relax.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: I lay a towel over her as we lay there.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: The action is as if it was a bed sheet,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: but the towel is of course only enough to cover
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: the vertical center of her body. Then in the next
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: scene of the dream, this sexual partner from the pool
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and I are dressed only in bath towels, and are
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: heading towards a hot bath located near the grounds of
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: a local university. However, instead of a locker room where
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: one might store possessions and clothes, we walk outdoors on
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: a grassy area with a few trees and a perimeter
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: of beautiful bushes. There are three trees there for us
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to drop off our things before heading to the spring waters.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Right next to the furthest of the three trees is
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a youthful, long, blonde-haired harpist. ostensibly practicing in a relaxed manner.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: I assume she is a music major at the nearby university.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: For some reason, my partner and I choose the tree
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: right next to this harpist, and I disrobe hanging up
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: my towel on a tree branch. As I disrobe, I
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: apologize to the harpist, since I assume our proximity and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: presence would distract her practicing. However, she smiles with a shrug,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: says she doesn't mind, and then, after looking my nude
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: figure up and down, winks at me. So here's some context.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: The dreamer says, I had this dream this morning before
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: waking a few weeks ago, and I'm in a liminal
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: stage between professions, a pause before the plunge, so to speak.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I've had some time to catch up with myself during
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: the past few months. which was much, much too busy
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: during the past several years. Main feelings in the dream?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: The general tone and mood is positive, relaxed, joyful. The
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: feelings during sex were great. It was very intimate sex
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: and tantrically connective, though this friend-partner in the dream was
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: not implied to be a girlfriend or wife relationship to me,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: which would definitely carry a different romantic tone for me.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: The feelings in the second scene, positive, the dream ego
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: didn't question why the harpist chose to practice on this
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: grassy garden area outside the hot baths, but in waking life,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: much of this dream seems illogical. Waking life might question
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of things that happened, but the dream ego
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: was okay with everything, the nudity, the pool sex, disrobing
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: before the harpist and heading for the baths. And for
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: some further associations, he says, I love the harp. I
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: was a classical guitarist a long time ago, and harp
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: music was always a sort of near other in the
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: musical world. I often listened to harp music, mostly of
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: the Celtic tradition, during infrequent downtime in my current life.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Hot baths. I love going to hot baths. I was
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: not raised in a culture which has public nudity, but
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: I've never had issues with being nude when the time, place,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: or a occasion calls for it. Public sex. I've never
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: had open-air public sex per se where someone could see
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: me and my partner. The closest thing I can think
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: of is receiving oral sex in a bar bathroom. Nudity, pools.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Once as a child, I skinny dipped in our backyard pool.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: My brother told on me and my parents told me
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't do it. I don't remember any internal resistance
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: to the parenting, nor do I remember feeling friction with
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: my brother for telling on me. I knew it wasn't
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: what was supposed to be done, but I also knew
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: intuitively that it wasn't that big of a deal, but
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: rather a convention. I haven't skinny-dipped since, but I have
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: taken a lot of nude hot baths while living in Japan,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: where nudity is rather the convention and rule. One should
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: not wear any clothes in public hot baths there. Equally,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: tantrically meditative and lusty animalistic sex... If someone asks me
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: what my ideal sexual experience is, this is it. Rich associations.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, my first reaction to this dream, as
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I could see myself on camera smiling throughout, is what
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: a delightful dream. And our dreamer says that. He says
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: general tone and mood is positive, relaxed, joyful. Mm-hmm.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, so very pleasurable. I'm struck by, you know,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: but there's some stuff in it that's curious, right? It's
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: not just, you know, sometimes you have a dream and
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: you just want to say, well, this is just a gift.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: You know, there's almost nothing to interpret. But there is
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: something to interpret here. There's not a lot of friction,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: like you're saying, but there's just a few places where
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: there's some questions. And what comes up for me is
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: that there are two scenes and They're similar. So sometimes
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: in dreams, when there's two scenes, you can sort of say, okay,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: what's staying the same? And that can kind of help
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: us triangulate a sense of meaning. So what stays the
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: same in the two scenes is that he's going to
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: have sex or intimate contact with this woman in water. Right.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: And there's someone watching. So first of all, I want
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: to take us back to what you just brought up
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: a minute ago, Deb, which is the alchemical woodcuts from
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: the Rosarium. In this series of alchemical woodcuts, the king
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: and the queen meet. First, they're fully clothed. They shake
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: hands with the left hand. And then I think in
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: the very next scene, they are naked. And in the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: following scene, they're naked together in the bath. And we
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: have that here in this dream sequence. I also want
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: to point out that there was an initial quaternio. So
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: there's the dream ego and the four women. So we
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: might wonder about typology. You know, there are four sort
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: of typological functions. And so there's a sense of wholeness there,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: but he's connecting with one of them. So it would
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: be interesting to me to know a little bit about
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: that woman. What or who is he uniting with? I
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: don't get the feeling this is someone in his real life.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: My guess is that it's not someone in his real life.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: My guess is, you know, he might have mentioned a
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: reference to some particular person. So where I go with
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: that is that it means that this is a subjective dream.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: That is between him and him, him and the dream maker,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: him and his psyche. without an outward link to a
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: person he actually knows.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: And yet, if maybe this woman in the dream reminded
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: him of someone or he had an imagination about who
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: she was, then we might know something about what part
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: of himself she represents. Right. We don't have really much
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: of a feeling about that, but it's great sex.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: We can't know without the dreamer, but What we do
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: know is it was great sex. And he did not
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: mind being observed, which I think matches up in a way.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: It's doubled again. We see that later with the harpist,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: who also does not mind.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Right. So in the first scene, they're the two women
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: that observe, but it's not a big deal. It's like
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: they know. They're not, you know, they're not even really
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: worried about it. The second scene, first of all, it
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: is quite different. Did he say it's like it's a
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: hot spring? Does he say hot spring or hot bath?
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's more of a spring. It's more of
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: a kind of natural setting.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: In his associations, he talks about having had experiences with
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: hot baths in Japan, where you do that and can
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: be nude, unlike in our country. And he says he
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: has no problem being nude.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: It's not really clear, okay, but if it were a
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: hot spring, which I'm not sure it is, that would
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: feel a little bit different than a pool, right? But
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: let's say it's a bath, right? Both of these are man-made,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: but they are different. Pools are more for recreation, maybe exercise.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And baths are a little bit there for cleaning, they're
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: for relaxing. It's more of a ritual, I want to say,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: to go to a bath. It's kind of a social
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: event too. But bathing has a ritual aspect to it.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: And in a lot of ancient rituals, bathing was an
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: important part of it. So there's something a little bit
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: more serious about the baths versus the pool.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: And I think the baths, a hot bath, is much
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: more of a personal, sensual experience. The hot water feels wonderful.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: We relax in a hot bath. So it's really a
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: very different kind of pleasure from... doing laps in a pool,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: or even on a hot day, just jumping in to
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: cool off. A hot bath is meant to be relaxing
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: and sensual. Mm-hmm.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: So that has a little bit of a different feeling.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: And then it's quite a big difference between these two
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: women who are just kind of sitting there versus the harpist. Mm-hmm.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: So the dreamer has his own associations with harps. the
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: kind of dominant of the harp, if I were going
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: to bring my own kind of cultural reference to it,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: is it is an exquisitely beautiful instrument that is often
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: associated with, you know, something that's a little bit otherworldly.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: And of all the instruments that angels could play, they
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: play the harp.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I like the harpist a lot because she's a little cheeky.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: She doesn't just say, oh, it's fine with me. She
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: gives him a good look up and down and winks.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: And that's the resolution of the dream. That's the final thing.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: We have to pay a lot of attention to that
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: because it's how the dream ends, is the harpist looks
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: him up and down and winks. She's not a neutral
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: observer like those other two women. She's got a thing
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: for him a little bit. She's flirting with him a
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: little bit.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I, I think that's the progression, in a way,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: of the dream, because at the beginning, when he's in
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: the pool, he says the other two friends seated by
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: the poolside are aware in a positive sense, but not
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: necessarily focused on the two of us. So our dream
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: ego can sort of ignore them. They don't matter. By
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: the time he gets to the grassy patch with his
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: sexual partner... Now he knows he's being observed. He's aware
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of it. And so how do we appear in public?
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: What do other people think of us? Is this sexual
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: activity approved of or not? And I'm contrasting that with
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: what he talked about in his associations of skinny dipping
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: in the pool and his brother told on him, and
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: you're not supposed to do that. But the resolution of
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: this dream is....
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: You're hot.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Enjoy. Enjoy yourself. Have a good time. While this particular soft, melodic,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: really lovely music is being played on the harp.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: And I want to go back to what you said before, Deb.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: You said, you know, why this dream now? And We
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: don't have a lot of context. He mentions that he's
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: between professions and that he's recently taken some time to
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: really catch up with himself, which sounds like it's a
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: sort of something that hasn't happened very often because he
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: says he's been so, so busy in the past several years.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: And the wording is delightful. He says, a liminal stage
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: between professions, a pause before the plunge. So here we
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: have a reference in a way to what the pool
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: may be imaging. You take the plunge, and then on
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: dry land, there you are in a grassy area, beautiful bushes.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: It may kind of be a foretaste of what lies ahead,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: a more conscious place, and that the plunge will be okay.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And that there's some way where the psyche is responding
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: really positively to taking some time for yourself, you know?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Because I think, you know, you picked up on this stuff.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: This dream is really a lot about just sensual pleasure
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: of all kinds. You know, there's beautiful music and there's
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: the warm water and the great sex. And it just
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: is all pretty delicious.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: So it sounds very affirming.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: It sounds very affirming. With that little last thing that
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: dreams often have is there's just a little sort of
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: kicker at the end.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. And by the way, don't forget this. She
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: smiles with a shrug, says she doesn't mind. And then
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: after looking my nude figure.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Up and down.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: You know, the two of us have been smiling. What
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: a lovely dream. And it is a gift.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: It's all okay.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Well, it's more than okay, actually. It's generative and juicy
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: and playful. It's a little playful.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Okay. Our next dream is from a woman. She is 34.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: And here's the dream. I walk into my bedroom. I'm
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: aware that the dream has already started, but I can't
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: remember anything before this. Laying in my bed and beckoning
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: me into it with the duvet pulled up to reveal
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: his body is the music teacher from my work. I
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: don't find this teacher attractive and am repulsed at the
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: idea of him beckoning me into bed. It feels like
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: a foregone conclusion. and he is confident that I will
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: join him in bed. He's clothed and laying on his
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: side in the bed. He is wearing a suit, which
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: he usually wears to work. He is holding the duvet
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: up with one hand, laying on his side facing me,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: and making a beckoning gesture with the other hand.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: He is smirking.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I feel disgusted, repulsed, and I definitely do not want
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: to get into bed or have sex with him. I
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: want him to get out of my bed. I wake up.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: So for context, she says, I had this dream a
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: few years ago when I was working in a school
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: as an assistant teacher. I was around 30 or 31
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: at the time of the dream, and I'm 34 now.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I was living in Japan at the time and working there.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: This is an erotic dream. The dream really stuck with
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: me after I had it. I remember waking up with
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: a start. Later that day, I went into work and
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: internally cringed when I saw the music teacher. I woke
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: up with an icky feeling and felt so repulsed all morning.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I did not work directly with the music teacher as
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I taught English, but I would interact with them as
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: a colleague. I did not find the teacher attractive. I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: remember being so struck by the dream that I took
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: it to therapy. I spoke to my therapist about it
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: and wondered if I did find the music teacher attractive
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: but was not consciously aware of it. We thought together
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: about Jung's ideas about dreams and if everyone in the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: dream was a part of me or my psyche, perhaps
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: the music teacher represented a part of myself that I
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: didn't want to come into contact with and psyche was
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: beckoning me or inviting me into that part. This made
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: sense to me at the time and I felt less
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: disgusted by the dream after talking to my therapist about it.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: The main feelings were disgust, repulsion, anger, and intrigue. She adds,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: my bedroom I associate with feeling relaxed and sleeping. The
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: bedroom in my dream did not look like my bedroom
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: at the time, but I knew it was my bedroom.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: She also says, I also discussed with my therapist whether
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: it was a sex dream or erotic dream, or just
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: whether the music teacher was inviting me into the bed.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: It felt like a sex dream when I woke up
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: and my memories of being in the dream. However, when
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: exploring it with my therapist, it felt like maybe it
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: wasn't a sex erotic dream and that the better bedroom
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: could have represented intimacy in a different way.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think we can, you know, we can
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: get hung up on what we label dreams, but the
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: truth is here, it's certainly, this dream is certainly in
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the realm of the erotic. So we've, we've got, we've
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: got someone beckoning the dreamer into bed. So it's good
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: enough for me.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. Um, that is certainly the context, uh, with
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: the music teacher lying on his side and lifting up
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the duvet and beckoning her into bed. Um, it's, it's
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: unlikely that this would, uh, represented a to-do list for
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: the next day.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: So, Deb, did you have some initial thoughts about this?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Here is an example, unlike the previous dream, that here's
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: an example of being turned off, something that is unwelcome
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: and feels intrusive, and the dream ego is feeling disgusted
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: and Repulsed and angry and all of that. So I'd
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: be very curious about this music teacher. She doesn't work
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: with him, but he's a colleague at the school she's
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: teaching at. He's lying in bed in a suit that
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: he wears to work, which is, you know, kind of
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: just disjunctive with it's a double message. Here's this shadow
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: figure or negative animus type figure beckoning her into bed,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: but wearing a suit which is not at all conducive
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: to intimacy or sex. I'd be curious about that. What
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: is it, the double message of come hither, stay away,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I'm all suited up?
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I'm also curious about Why him? Of all of the
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: seducers that the dream maker could have chosen.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: This one.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking about what is the internal conflict that
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: this might represent about come close and stay away. And
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: being beckoned by some at this image of this man
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: who turns her off.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: So I want to say, first of all, that the
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: impression I get from this entry is that the dreamer
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: felt pretty confronted by the dream and sort of needed
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: to shake herself down. Oh, my God, am I really
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: attracted to him? You know, certainly our dreams ask for engagement,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: but I think we don't need to necessarily feel like
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: we're on trial. there's always something essentially playful at the
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: heart of every dream. And we can meet them a
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: little bit playfully. So what I will say is a
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: dream like this, what we're very, so this is a
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: dream of intrusion. The man is in her bed and
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: she doesn't want him there. And a dream of intrusion
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: can go lots of different ways. I mean, first of all,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: and Deb, I think you were getting at some of this,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: If we're looking at it as an objective dream, as
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: having something to say about the real life outer world,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: we might wonder if there's something about this actual person,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: either like the dreamer said, maybe you are attracted to
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: him and you're not admitting it to yourself, or maybe
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: there's some problematic dynamic with this person that you haven't
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: been so consciously aware of. Maybe there's a way that
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: this actual person has been behaving in an intrusive manner,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: you know, perhaps subtly, but the dream is alerting you
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: to something. The dream is sort of saying, hey, you
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: haven't been paying attention to this, but look at this.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: If we want to look at it more psychologically, again,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: I think we could see it, you know, one of
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: possible different couple ways. First of all, either that like, hey,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: sort of where I think it sounds like the dreamer
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: wound up with her therapist is, Maybe there's a part
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: of you you don't want to know about, but it's
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: asking you to come into relationship with it. Alternatively, sometimes,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: you know, it may be symbolically saying like, yeah, there's
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: some attitude perhaps that you're holding that doesn't belong in
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: your bed that you need to kind of take a
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: stand against. So I've sort of presented four wildly different possibilities,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: and it's a little hard to know. I do love
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: that the dreamer took it to her therapy and that
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: they talked about it. And it sounds like it really
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: helped to think about, well, what if this is a
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: part of me that I don't really want to get
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: to know? but I'm getting invited to get to know it.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: That sort of settled her down. I'd be curious, since
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: the dream is a few years old, I'd be curious
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: if she was able to work with it in that way,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: and did she get to know another part of herself?
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: We don't really have that information here.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: You know, I also wonder if, in a way, you know,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: the dream ego's strong sense of revulsion and anger and
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: so on She also says intrigue.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: So I wonder if this music teacher who in waking
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: life is not somebody she works closely with is a
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: bit of shadow that to the dreamer is bigger than
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: it really is. She's not really close with him in
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: her professional life. He's someone she knows in passing. And
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: that this image of there he is dressed in a
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: suit like he wears to go to work, which seems
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: very banal, like, really? And he's beckoning her closer, would
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: be an impossible sexual situation. But I wonder if it's
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: something that she has an outsized reaction to when, in fact,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: it's relatively... small potatoes, so to speak. And she's being
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: invited to meet something that is out of proportion in
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: her waking life, something that seems much worse or much
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: more awful than it really is. He's just a music teacher,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: and he's dressed.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Like he's going to work. And I like what you
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: said before, too, about the double message that he's in
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: bed and, you know, kind of lifting up the duvet
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: to show himself. He's got a suit on. So there
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: is some kind of conflict there. I think you're I
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: think you're spot on about that. I also just want
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: to lift up. I mean, this is a particular person
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: that she knew in waking life, but he's also the
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: music teacher. And I wonder about that, like the person
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: who teaches music. And is there something there? I mean,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: music is a it's a very kind of special art
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: form really because it's it is so it kind of
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: goes right into our limbic system you know and and
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: it's so emotional music is and it could be so
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: filled with pathos or joy and so so I just
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: I wonder if there's something about that there too but
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: um I love that this dreamer, you know, had this
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: dream several years ago, and it sounds like has still
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: been kind of working it. But it does show, you know, again,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the ability for the images around sexuality and sex to
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: outpicture all of these incredibly diverse inner experiences. Okay, here's
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: another dream.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: This dream comes from a man who's 28 years old.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: And here's the dream. I was in a sauna with
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: a man who I knew in the dream to be
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: my boyfriend, though I don't recognize him in my waking life.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: We were alone in the sauna and began to kiss
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: when all of a sudden a group of four men
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: wearing all purple, purple tunics, purple sandals, purple fezzes, entered
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: the sauna and sat on the bench directly across from us.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: I really love these dreams. The man set a mini-cauldron
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: down on the floor and lit a fire inside it.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I think that's supposed to be the men set a
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: mini-cauldron down. Okay. They were then throwing incense and what
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: looked like sand into the cauldron as they were chanting
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: in a language I'd never heard before. I stopped kissing
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: my boyfriend and we looked at each other, giggled, and
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: left the sauna. Okay. Here's the context. A couple months
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: prior to my dream, I stopped talking to my ex-boyfriend,
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: with whom I had an off-and-on friendship with benefits ever
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: since we broke up in 2020. I also was going
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: to the sauna at my gym quite regularly around this time,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: and I admittedly caught myself checking out the other men
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: who would come in, which is something I try not
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: to do too much, considering there aren't many out gay
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: men where I currently live. Mane feelings in the dream.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: It was very sensual, enjoyable, and even kinky until the
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: men wearing purple appeared. Then it was briefly frightening and
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: surreal until I looked at my boyfriend in the dream
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: and we laughed. Then the whole dream felt comical. Okay,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: here are some associations. I have many erotic dreams, but
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: I rarely ever remember them in great detail as I
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: did this one. This was one of the more vivid
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: erotic dreams I've had. Usually, the lovers in my dreams
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: change faces and sometimes genders, but this particular lover stayed
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: the same. Dark hair, tan skin, slim athletic build, aquiline nose.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: I don't remember this lover looking like anyone I know
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: in real life, which is strange because usually the lovers
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: in my dreams do look like people I actually know.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: And as I stated earlier, they change into different people
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: throughout the dream. I was also raised Catholic and struggled
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: to accept my sexuality growing up, so maybe that can
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: explain the purple tunics and ritualistic burning incense. In retrospect,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: those textures and smells remind me of Catholic masses I'd
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: attend as a child at Catholic school. I'm no longer Catholic,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: for the record.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: This is one of these dreams where my first reaction is,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: I have no idea what's going on here. Especially the
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: purple tunics and fezzes and so on. And you don't
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: walk into a sauna clothed. It's attention getting.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: I think I had a sort of initial reaction to it.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: So I'll sort of get us talking about it, I think.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting because here we are with a sauna.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: A couple of dreams ago, we had these hot baths,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: which are very kind of similar, right? These saunas and
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: baths and that kind of thing are ancient. And most
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: cultures have some kind of... bathing tradition, right? Some kind
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: of public bathing tradition. So they're, like I said, I
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: think they have a kind of community aspect. They have
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: a ritual aspect. There's something archetypal about a sauna or
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: a hot spring or a hot bath, all right? We're
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: in this place, it's maybe a little bit of a
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: kind of abesme du niveau mental, which we've talked about before,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: kind of lowering of the threshold of consciousness in a
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: kind of communal setting. So there's something important that happens here.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: And as you pointed out, Deb, too, it's a place
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: of kind of physical pleasure. So he's with his boyfriend
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: in the dream and they're kissing. So there's this initial union.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Then a group of four men come in. Well, four,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: as we know, is a very Jungian number. It's a
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: number that Jung associated with wholeness. So it seems very
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: important to me that it's a group of four men.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: And they're wearing purple. Now, I can see the kind
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: of comedic parts of this and the fact that you
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: don't wear clothes in a sauna. But just hang with
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: me for one second while I explore this possible way
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: of looking at this. Purple is a color that's associated
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: with spirituality. It can actually be associated with a kind
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: of like premature individuation, but it is the color of emperors.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: It is a highly kind of spiritual color. And then
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: they begin, they put down this cauldron, you know, and
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: that's a feminine image, by the way. And they put
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: it in the middle of the room and they're burning
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: incense in it, which of course does have a religious connotation.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: He mentions Catholicism, but they're chanting. This is some kind
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: of ritual that's going on. And they're obviously in a
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: kind of the role of the priest, right? These four men,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: they're wearing purple, wearing purple robes. They're chanting. They're burning
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: incense in a cauldron. And I wonder if, and I
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: could see this kind of working both ways, that there
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: is a little bit of a call to take the
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: kind of imagery of union more seriously. You know, he
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: looks at his boyfriend and they giggle and they leave.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: But it seems to me that either the dream is
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: saying you're kind of taking things too seriously, you know,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and maybe you need to kind of make these this
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: mumbo jumbo go away with a with a wink and
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: a giggle. Or there's a possibility here to enter in
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: something that is much more spiritualized, perhaps getting there through
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: the kind of physical, sensual realm. To recognize the spiritual
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: potential within romantic or sexual union.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Exactly. These dreams that are erotic are dreams that seem
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: to reflect either a real union of body, instinct, feeling,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: and a kind of spirituality. Because when it's exciting and
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: really fulfilling, all of those parts of us, come into
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: wholeness for a moment, several moments. We're all one thing.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's lovely.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Right? It's everything comes together with another. And here, that
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: doesn't happen. But the feeling tone is playful or even
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: a little bit casual in a delightful way where it
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: starts out with, I'm in the sauna with a man
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I knew to be my boyfriend, though I don't recognize
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: him in my waking life. So they're having a little
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: tryst in the sauna that is pleasurable. but doesn't appear
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: to have depth to it. And then in come these
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: very unusual figures of four men, all in purple, have
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: a cauldron, burning incense and chanting. It's like, whoa, what's
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: going on? So I want to say a bit about
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: the significance of four that we're always referencing and noticing
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: in dreams. But there is a fourness that is a
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: structural wholeness, according to Jung. Think about we have four directions,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: four functions of the ego. Almost all buildings have four corners.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Gardens often have four corners. There are four apostles. The
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: list of fournesses, we have four seasons. The list of
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: fours goes on and on. We just recognize that hence
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: it has come to symbolize a kind of completeness. You
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: don't have three seasons. We don't have buildings with three corners.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: So there it is. And I like your idea that
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: perhaps there is a calling to find more. Mm-hmm. more
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: depth and more elevation, both in a sexual experience. There's
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: possibility here for a kind of spiritual component rather than
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: simply a casual encounter.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because, I mean, if you think about a different
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: way the dream could have gone, you know, these four
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: men could have come in and started chanting and burning incense. And,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: you know, they might have then initiated the dreamer and
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: his boyfriend into a higher spiritual state.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: You know, so and I don't know exactly which way
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: to go with it, but that's a possibility.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: But, you know, what I was thinking about is the
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: previous dream that goes on to a kind of wonderful completion.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: And wouldn't it have been great if this dream had
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: ended with, you know, our connection deepened and became more intimate.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: And my feelings as a dream ego were, you know,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: feelings of great union and togetherness, et cetera, et cetera.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have something else I want to say because,
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: you know, in a way, I mean, it's very sweet.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: It's a very sweet dream right now. but they look
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: at each other and they giggle, which is something very young.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like you're with, you go, you're in
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: church with your friend and you start cracking up and
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: you're trying to not laugh and then you have to
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: leave or something like that. It's like, it's lovely, but
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: it's young.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: But what if the dreamer, and the dreamer's pretty young.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's only 28. What if the dreamer allowed
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: himself to take this more seriously? Like you're saying, Deb,
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: like what if, What if they climaxed together and it
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: had been this, you know, incredible sexual experience there in
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: the sauna in the dream, right? There's something about letting
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: yourself take it more seriously and kind of like stepping
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: into that experience in an adult way.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like the dream is not saying
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: there's anything wrong with what's going on now, certainly.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no guilt, you know, but I take, I
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: think I agree with you about the youngness. of the dream.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: You know, it's almost like, you know, two high school kids,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of kissing somewhere that they think is private.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: And then some adult comes along and everybody goes, you know,
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: got to get back to class.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Or feeling guilty and ashamed of being seen. So that
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: isn't there. But I think we're both hoping that the
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: door will open to a more fulfilling and erotic engagement
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: with one's own sex and a partner, it could be more.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what the dream is saying.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm hoping that's what will happen.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: That's what we're rooting for.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: This dream is from a 30-year-old woman. And here's the dream.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: I was in a restaurant kitchen. but I was not
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: employed there as a waitress. I simply found myself wanting
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: to help with the work. At some point, I was
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: left alone in the kitchen. A handsome young man came
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: in and told me that he was going to impregnate
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: me against my will, that this was something he had
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: to do. I did not want it, but I found
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: myself surrendering without putting up much resistance, even though I
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: was afraid of STDs of an unwanted child. and that
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: it felt like cheating on my partner. Despite all these,
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: the intercourse was enjoyable. It was very enjoyable. I think
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: that's important, so, yeah. Later, I was in the early
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: stages of pregnancy. I found the man again and tried
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: to convince him to have sex with me. I thought
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: the damage had already been done once, so why would
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: it matter if it happened again? For context, she says...
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: I find it difficult to enjoy sex. Physically, I experienced
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: pain at the beginning of intercourse, which has slightly improved
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: over the years. Mentally, I somehow cannot allow myself to
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: fully let go. I'm in a loving, long-term relationship, but
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I also feel a sense of regret about the experiences
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: I may have missed by making this choice. This was
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: my first relationship, and both my partner and I were
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: inexperienced in this area when we started dating. The main
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: feelings in the dream, she says, at first I didn't
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: feel I belonged in that space. When the man surprised me, fear, guilt,
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: and helplessness. Then on the act, liberation and pleasure. Lastly,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: when finding the man again, desire. Her associations to the
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: restaurant kitchen are that Although she had no prior experience
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: in the hospitality sector, in my actual work environment, I
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: often feel I do not belong, unsure of myself, and
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: deprived of guidance. Simply try to be productive, despite feeling depleted.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Around for surrender, she says, being unable to take control
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: of my career and life choices and acting like an observer.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: For pregnancy, she says, I tend to dream about pregnancy
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: during periods of personal transformation. Isn't that nice? And seeking
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: the man again, she said, a bold assertiveness that is
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: unfamiliar in my personality.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: There you go. God, I love this dream.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: This is, for me, a great example of a pretty
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: straightforward message from the dream maker about pregnancy. What is
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: her growing edge in the area of intimacy and physical
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: pleasure and generativity? Because that's what pregnancy is about, generating
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: new life, literally and symbolically, of where is the new
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: life in you. But let's take it from the top.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: I was in a restaurant kitchen. I'm always interested in
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: the dream setting. It's like, what's a restaurant? Well, a
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: restaurant is a place you go to eat food that
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: you yourself have not prepared, but she's in the kitchen
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: where the food is prepared and is not employed there,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: either as a waitress or presumably as a cook. So
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: you're in the kitchen, the realm of the heart, the
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: realm where transformation takes place. We take raw ingredients. and
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: transform them into edible and delicious, hopefully, in the restaurant, food. Yeah,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: she wants to help. She's not working there, but she
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: wants to help.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: We have restaurant and we have kitchen, and those are
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: a little different. I think they're both important. A restaurant
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: is where you go to kind of be, you go
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: to be served. Yes. And if you're working in the restaurant,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: you are serving others. you are cooking for others and
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: you're serving others. So it's, you know, you are putting
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: yourself in service to other people. And as you say,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: it's not even her job, but she kind of puts
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: herself to work, which, you know, I mean, she herself
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: has this association that this is kind of what she does.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: She just kind of reflexively takes care of other people,
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: even though she feels depleted by that.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Or... She wants to help with the work, and what
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: is the work of Psyche in her life with intimacy
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: and enjoying her sexual functioning? It could be either one.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Or it could be both.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: You know, and that, like you said before, she could
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: want to help, she could want to serve the kitchen
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: of alchemical science transformation within herself. It could be both things,
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: that it shows this kind of pattern in the outer
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: world of constantly taking care of other people, even at
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: your own expense. And it could also say, and the
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: ego really wants to figure this out. So that's the
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: beautiful thing about dreams is is how layered the meanings
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: can be. Speaking of which, I want to say something
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: about this next scene, because I think this is really important.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, essentially what happens in the next scene is
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: something like a rape. And we might feel very offended
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: about that. We might have very strong feelings that this
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: is showing up in our dreams. But we have to
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: remember that the psyche is thinking symbolically. And so we
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: have to see if we can relate to these images
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: with a certain kind of openness and curiosity.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: And we have an archetypal subset here. Archetypally, there are
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of myths, often featuring the god Zeus, where
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: he rapes and impregnates a mortal woman, which leads to,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: guess what, the birth of a hero or a heroine
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: in this case. We also have the famous myth of Psyche, Corrie,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: who will become Persephone, picking flowers in the garden, and
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: the god from hell, Hades, comes roaring up with his chariot,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: abducts her, and of course rapes her. So what is
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: that symbolizing, an initiatory experience that the ego can find
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: abhorrent and traumatic and all kinds of other things, but
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: which leads to productivity, generativity, and transformation from maiden into woman.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: And Persephone is a goddess. She is the queen of Hades.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: She is very, very powerful. So I'm going to the
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: mythological possible substrate of this, that here it is the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: young man who says, this is going to happen. And
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: our dream ego says she surrendered without putting up much resistance,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: which is not always the case in mythology. Even though
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: her dream ego is saying, whoa, wait, hold on, wait
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: a minute. Yeah, nobody's using protection here. That could be
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: a bad thing. Feels like cheating. But some other part
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: of her surrenders. And then adds, the intercourse was very enjoyable.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: So it's a handsome young man. And I think just
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: as you were saying, Deb, we can imagine that this
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: is kind of an archetypal energy in the psyche, right?
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: That comes forward and it feels like a rape. It
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: is experienced as a rape according to the dream ego
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: who likes to be in control or has a certain
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: idea about how life is going to go. And then
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: something within her says, no, no, no, no. You are
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: meant to do something different. I'm going to germinate new
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: life in you, new psychic life. And your ego is
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: going to kind of put up a fuss about it.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: And to the ego, it may feel like I'm going
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: to get an STD. I'm going to have an unwanted child.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: I'm going to betray my current partner. It's an image
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: of a kind of reorientation of values, right? The ego says,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: this is important, this is important, this is important. But
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: this handsome young man who kind of comes out of
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: nowhere says, that's not what's important. We can think about
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: that as an unconscious aspect of the personality. that comes
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: forward and says, you thought those things were important? Actually,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: this is what's important. And that's what we're doing now.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: And then, Deb, I think as you say, you know,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: it's actually very, I think, positive, kind of prognostically, that
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: the ego's like, okay, I'm going to go along with this.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: And I think that leads right into the conclusion of
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: the dream. She does get pregnant. And then she finds
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: the man again. And I tried to convince him to
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: have sex with me. Yeah, since damage has already been done.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: What the hell? Let's do it again. So I think
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: this is a wonderfully prognostic dream about finding her capacity
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: for erotic pleasure, which she's had difficulty with in her
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: waking life with her long-term partner that working out where
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: she says first I didn't belong in that space and
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: when the man surprised me fear guilt helplessness and then
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: on the act liberation and pleasure and when finding the
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: man again desire there it is there it is of
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: This can be yours. These are new feelings. Finding this
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: part of herself that can experience pleasure. And interestingly, in
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: the dream, it's portrayed as illicit pleasure. You really shouldn't.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: You know, what about STDs and what about this and that?
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: There it is. You can have this. And, of course,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: she is pregnant, which... That's the new beginning, new life.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: So I want to just kind of flesh that out
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit, too, because I think that, you know,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: I get the feeling that the dreamer knows this, right?
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: She kind of identifies in her associations that she's had
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: a somewhat passive approach to life. The dream text is
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: very interesting because she goes from being sort of passive and,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: you know, in service to everyone else. to really making
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: a decision. This thing happens to her, that thing happens
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: to her, and then she says, I found the man
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: again and tried to convince him to have sex. She's
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: in the driver's seat there, and that's a very, very
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: important change that she goes through. This dream well might
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: be about feeling more in control of her embodied sexuality
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: and her ability for pleasure, but it could also have
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: a much wider sense. that she is recognizing her own
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: potential in lots of different arenas.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, her own desire.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, and she mentions that she's been unable to take
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: control of her career and her life choices, and that
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: she acts like an observer. In this dream, she stops
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: acting like an observer, and that goes along with being pregnant.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: So the new attitude, the new life situation is germinating
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: inside her. And that goes alongside her being able to
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: claim something. And as you said, Deb, to find her desire.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: Her desire and her ability to go get it. Her agency.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: I see this guy again and I want it.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: Right, right. Even though I'm not supposed to want it. right?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: You know, I think I'm sitting here thinking I want
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: to say, you know, you go, girl.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: And I like the point that you're making that I'm reiterating,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: which is that it's not just about sex, but about
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: connecting with desire and agency and going for it.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: In all areas.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Right. In her career, relationships with family, colleagues, anything and everything.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: This is what I actually want. And I'm not going
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: to be afraid that maybe people won't like me or,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever those other little ego inhibitions may be
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: saying to her. Great dream.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were all great, weren't they? They were all
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: so interesting. So we hope you've enjoyed this sort of
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: quick survey of erotic dreams. If you want to know
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit more about what we think about these
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: kinds of dreams, do make sure that you check out DreamWise.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: The paperback is coming out on June 9th in the
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: United States, and we hope that you enjoy it. Thanks
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com. If
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, give us five stars and a
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: good review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get
• 1:08:37
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• 1:08:41
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• 1:08:44
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• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: following us on Instagram, Facebook, X, and TikTok.