Latest / Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality / 053: When You Need an Outside Perspective at Work

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053: When You Need an Outside Perspective at Work · Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello, Annette.
• 0:00
  Speaker 2: Hey, Sandra. I'm so excited to talk about this today.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: What are we talking about?
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: So I guess I'll start with a question. How does
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: that sound? How do you know when you've reached the
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: point where another perspective might help you see something you
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: can't see from inside of your own experience?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Kind of perspective.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: That's the question. What kind of perspective do you think
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: you need? Like, What situation are you stuck in or
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: struggling with and you keep processing or worse, you're ruminating? Oh,
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: fancy word, just ruminating in the problem. And you keep
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: arriving back to the same point.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: You mean all those times that I call you and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: talk about the same thing and all those times that
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I call my other girlfriends and talk about the same
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: thing and the endless conversations I have about how this
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: person is like, just not. Yeah.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Okay. I get it. Well, and the other thing is,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: is let's go broader because we can always get our
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: girlfriends' experiences or opinions, right? I would always call my
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: sister or my brother. You can call your spouse and
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: be like, hey, listen, it's happening again. Let's think outside
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: of that immediate primary circle of influence. Do you always,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: and you're the one who reminds you of this all
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: the time, those people that know you well are there
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: to support you. So they might be sticking up for
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: you and they might be advocating for your position or
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: your perspective. And is that really what you need with
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: this particular situation?
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Probably not.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: So let's take it to the workplace.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: How shocking that we would go there.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I know, right?
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Let's say you're dealing with a difficult boss, repeated interruption.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: You're having a visibility issue. Are you the person that
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: keeps getting assigned all the extra work?
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Like the taking notes?
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Like the taking notes, the invisible labor. Oh my gosh.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I hadn't even thought about that one.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Planning the office birthday party. What if you're the leader
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: and you're trying to make a decision? Are you internally
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: promoting someone or are you hiring from the outside? What
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: if you have a conflict going on or what if
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: you're avoiding a conversation because you know it's going to
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: be horribly uncomfortable?
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Yes. So. God, no, I'm just, I'm agreeing with you.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: And you're taking me back to 10, 15 years ago.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: The thing that I found often was it's hard to
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: let these conversations go. They're the first thing that you
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: think about when you think about a particular person. They're
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: the first thing that comes to mind when, you know,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: you get impacted in some way. And it's so hard
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: to let that go.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And it takes over.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It hijacks your day.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Yes. Hijacks. What a good word.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I thought of it myself. And so getting
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: an outside perspective, and let's maybe define what we mean
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: by that. When you would seek an outside perspective on
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: one of these many workplace conflict situations, what are you
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: looking for? Or what were you looking for? And was
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: it always the same?
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So one of the things I personally struggled with was
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: who can I talk to about this? Who's the right
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: person to speak about with this? And more importantly, what
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: is it that I want from them? Because it's one
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: thing to talk to somebody. It's a totally different thing
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: to figure out what is it that I want them
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: to do for me. So there were times when I
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: would go have a conversation with somebody. And what I
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: found was they'd be trying to solve the problem for me.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: And I'd be furious. I'd be frustrated. I'd want to cry. I...
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: might feel completely dismissed because I didn't really want them
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: to solve the problem for me. What I wanted was
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: for them to listen and to sit with me in
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: this space of, and then there were other times when
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to have somebody listen to me. I
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: wanted somebody to actually problem solve with me. Um, And
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: if I didn't set the conversation up well, then I'd
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: find them like just staring at me because the last
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: time we had this conversation, they offered advice and I said,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: that's not what I want. So oftentimes the struggle isn't
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: so much finding someone to talk to about it. It's
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: what do I really want from the conversation? Have you
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: had that?
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes. I have that all the time. So I
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: love this healthy perspective. So the first thing to do
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: is we need to step back and define what we need,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: what kind of help we're looking for, right? So super
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: great examples that you gave. Am I looking for somebody
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: to listen to me and just help me vent? I
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: need to get it out of my brain. I'm going
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: to just word vomit all over and get it out
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: of me. Or am I looking for Sandra to really
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: get in the nitty gritty and be like, What about this?
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: What about that?
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: What about this? Or is there like a deeper thing
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: that you need? Like, is this, maybe you're trying to
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: answer a deep question. Is this really an HR issue?
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Is this an ethical issue? What if it's really something
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: that's beyond your normal scope of thought and you need
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: an expert? These are all super great things. So what
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: kind of help do you need? First question. And I
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: think defining that is a healthy thing more than we
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: ever do before we actually seek help.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Because what do you do? You're just looking for somebody
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: to vent, recognize that there's a problem or be like, Sandra,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: that's a terrible injustice. How can you live with that?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: How can you live with that? Yeah. Somebody wants somebody
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: to be on my side.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Correct. Correct. So is that what you need? Do you
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: need somebody just to be on your side and listen
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: and validate? Oh, that's not a great experience. I agree
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: with you. Or are you looking for something else? And
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: I love that what you're saying is that asking for
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: help is not the failure because how many people feel
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: that way at work? If I bring this to someone
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: else or I bring it to my boss, they're going
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: to see me as a failure.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: And, you know, as you said that, I was thinking
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: to myself, How many times have I heard what I'm
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: about to tell you? And how many times have I
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: said it myself?
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: I'm ready.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Don't bring me problems. Bring me solutions.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, gosh. I think I said that a few million
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: times when I was somebody's leader.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Yes.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: And maybe we needed to define that, right? I didn't
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: mean don't bring me your problem. I mean, I want
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: you to have a perspective on the problem. Yes. So
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: I can appropriately advise. And I also meant back when
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I was in a very big problem solving, problem shooting
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: kind of job. What have you already tried? Yes. So
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: maybe those are better questions.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Yes. And I think for me personally, I have this
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: tendency to become over-responsible.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I know because we're both firstborn daughters.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: But... But what can also happen with that, if we're
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: not careful, we suddenly assume responsibility for the other person's problem.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And when you're super overwhelmed, when your boundaries maybe aren't
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: as clear, when you feel like you are somehow accountable
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: for fixing this, it's easy to take over. And the
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: last thing we need when we're feeling overwhelmed and we
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: have weak boundaries or we have unclear boundaries is to
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: feel like we've got one more thing we need to
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: take care of. I think what I was trying to
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: say was, you can bring me the problem, but I
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: don't want to be the one who's now responsible for
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: fixing it. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: That is very healthy. So the problem ownership remains with
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: the person who has the problem.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: But you can become that third party. And I'm going
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: to name some roles that you can play when you're
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: helping someone. You can be observer. You can be a
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: listening ear. You can be an advocate. You can be
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: a questioner. Like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What, what, what, what, what, why, why, why, why, why?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: And then you can also be a witness. Is that
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: a role? Just like to observe what's happening and say, yes, yeah,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I would do something about that. I love this.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Witnessing is such an important role. And we don't, I
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: certainly didn't understand it when I was in my formal position.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: It's only something that I've really learned as I've taken
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: on my coaching work. And that is that people don't
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: heal because we fix anything. We heal best when we
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: are witnessed in a supporting and nonjudgmental way. And so
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: witnessing is such a huge thing. of being a listener,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: not saying anything, holding space for the emotional components. Because oftentimes,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: especially when we're ruminating, something I know nothing about, when
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: we're ruminating, what we really are trying to work through
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: are all the different emotions. And we can't often get
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: to problem solving until we're clear about Why are we
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: feeling what we're feeling? Why is this creating so much angst?
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Why is it that when I tell you that person
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: A did this and I'm infuriated, you look at me
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: and you say, that person's such a teddy bear. Why
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: are you getting all worked up about them? And then
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: suddenly you're part of the problem too. So yes, witnessing,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: witnessing is such a huge thing. Yeah. I think one
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: of the things that we can really do is when
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: the person's not clear about why they're coming to you
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: or they haven't positioned it, one of the things that
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: we can really do is say, what do you want
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: me to be right now? Do you want me to
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: be your witness? Do you want me to offer advice?
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Do you want me to provide a solution? Do you
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: want me to just hear you out and let you vent? Like,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: where are we in this process? I will often do
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that with my daughter in particular when she gets home
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: from school and she's full of rage over something that
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: happened or I'll say, what role am I playing here?
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I love that. And so I think it's twofold, right?
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: The person that is coming, or if it's me coming
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: to you saying, Sandra, I have this problem. What do
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: I hope to get out of interacting with you? What
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: do I need from you? Yes. And if I am
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: not clear enough, or I'm too emotional to even ask
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: myself that question, Having you ask it of me stops
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: me from a moment saying, okay, what am I really
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: doing here? Why did I come knock on Sandra's door?
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Why did I text her and say, do you have
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: a few minutes to speak? What is it that I'm
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: asking her for? And then getting out of it what
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I need. And one thing that I was thinking about
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: when it comes to this is the pattern. We all
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: have patterns of behavior. So what keeps me thinking about
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: this problem or encountering the same problem again this week
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: after the same meeting with the same person that's driving
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: me crazy? What are we doing about those things? Or
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: are we part of the problem and letting the problems?
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: continue to deepen or just continue to go forward.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: And I'm wondering is it that we don't recognize the
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: pattern or is it that we just really aren't sure
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: what's actually happening in the moment what do you think
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I think it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Could be a little bit of both sometimes when you're
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: stuck in the pattern you may not be able to
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: view it in the way that you could if you
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: were standing outside of the pattern And noticing it. And
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: then I'm sure it's that we don't exactly know what's
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: happening because, again, we're not looking at it from an
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: objective place. We're inside of the situation.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: So how do I know what's actually happening? Or what
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: if I'm questioning somebody's motives?
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, you have a story about them?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I have lots of stories.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Yes. And they might have stories about you?
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think we've talked about that before.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: We did not talk about stories all the way back
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: in episode 42 through like episode 46, I don't think.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: But these are stories. We make up stories with the
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: absence of information. We make up stories when the information
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: we have doesn't fit our own narrative. All of the things.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: We have stories about ourselves, stories about other people. Yes.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: And we may not be able to see.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: I think something happens and then we have an interpretation
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: of what happened. It's not even the people involved in
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the situation. It's the what happened itself. If, Annette, you
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: come to me and you say, let's talk about this tomorrow,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I'm likely to say, OK, great. What time? right? But
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: if my boss comes and says to me, let's talk
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: about this tomorrow, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what did
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: I do?
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: What happened?
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: What should I have said? What didn't I say? What
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: didn't I complete? And I'm already catastrophizing, not just the situation,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: what might happen as a result of what just happened,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: and the fact that who it was that asked me.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: There's so many layers of interpretation that we're taking something through.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: So even when we're doing an exceptional job of communicating,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: we can't help but be viewed through a lens of
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: everything that that person has lived through in their whole
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: life and how those words are impacting them and everything
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: that's happened in our own life and how we're interpreting that.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: And somewhere in all of that, right, is the truth.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: But we're not always conscious of what's actually happening, how
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: we're processing it, and what we're making it mean. It
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: isn't even so much that something happened. It's what are
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: we making it mean? I'm in trouble. versus my boss
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: has a great new opportunity for me because he just
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: saw me behave with a difficult client in a way
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: that normally he doesn't associate with me. And now he's
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: seeing some potential for me to work on a particular
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: issue versus I'm sitting here thinking I'm in trouble.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: How do we know next that going to our business
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: bestie or our work bestie, our best friend in general
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: is not the person we need? What if we truly
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: need a company Completely outside perspective.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because the problem that
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: can happen is your bestie at work probably has an
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: opinion about your boss.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, no doubt.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Based on either their own work history with that individual.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Or what you've told them.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Which may color the perspective that you get back from them, right?
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I might go to my business bestie and say, oh
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: my gosh, he wants to see me tomorrow. And I
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: have no idea why, but we just finished a meeting
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: with XYZCon.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Well, what happened?
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, you know, I said this and I said that.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you're going to be in big trouble tomorrow.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: You better have your resume up to date.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: And now all of a sudden that pattern, that rumination
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: has kicked up a level. One of the benefits of
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: going to somebody who isn't even associated with your company
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: might be that you get a bigger, broader perspective. Like, well, gee, Sandra,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: is it possible that maybe they saw you do something
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: really cool and they thought, oh, I could expand Sandra's
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: role on this account because she handled a particular client
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: this way and I saw the client respond to that.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I love that. Getting outside of I always call this
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: your warm relationships.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Because even for a job search, when I'm working with clients,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: you need those warm relationships. And when we do our
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: networking exercise, I have them score their network on two scores.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: For example, there's somebody that loves you and would do
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: almost anything for you. And they're going to score high,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: like a 10. Thank your best friend. Would love you.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: They would do anything for you. And then the other
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: score is how can they influence your job search? And
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: maybe that score is only a one. So they're an
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: 11 and you need to find people that are more
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: like 18, 19, 20 on the total score.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: And help you reach your goals. Your best friend, amazing.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Your sister, amazing. Your brother, wonderful. Your significant other, great
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: that they are helping you process and they would do
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: anything for you. But I don't think they're going to
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: be able to give you a true third-party perspective. I
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: don't think they're going to be able to hold you
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: accountable to a set of things that you said you'd
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: get done. They're not going to hold you accountable to
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: finish reading the book or turning in your assignment. Maybe
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: they're not going to be able to help you process
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: a traumatic situation. When we're thinking about these things, I've
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: come up with three options for these outside people. Do
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you want to guess what I'm thinking with those three options?
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Because I think you might know the same options.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Tell me. All right.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: So I think there's three options. We're in this world
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: where you could take this to your AI bot. What
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: do you think about that for a third party perspective?
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Well, I certainly have opinions. I And again, I think
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: it depends on what kind of support it is that
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you need. Are you trying to prep for a conversation?
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: It might be able to give you some really good thoughts.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Does your AI bot know you well enough to challenge
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: you in different ways? Can it help you understand a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: particular story from a different perspective? Potentially. I think one
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: of the advantages is at 2 a.m. when you're testing
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: and turning, you're not going to call your best friend.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: At work, I hope. You might wake up your spouse,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: but I'm not sure how receptive they're going to be
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Correct, yeah.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Or even how helpful they're going to be at 2 a.m.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: You can talk to the dog. Not going to get
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: much back. No. So AI becomes a very convenient way
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: to engage in the dialogue. What I think we need
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: to be careful about with AI is it's not relational.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: We talked a lot about in our AI episodes, it's
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: not going to challenge you effectively. It may give you
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: incorrect answers. It may not notice patterns because it skips
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: over them. It may not know you well enough. All
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: of these things, I think we have to be careful
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: with AI. What do you think?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: No, I agree. And I think it's super helpful to
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: get some thoughts out of your head and archive them
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: someplace to come back to them. And many times I'll
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: do that. I'll use my AI bot as like my
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: brain dump location.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: And I will give it clear instructions. I'm like, I
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: don't want you to do anything with this information. I'm
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: clearly going to use this space as a repository. for
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: what I'm thinking. And that way I don't get unwanted
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: pattern processing by my AI bot. And I think there's
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: probably a couple more options. that are better suited for
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: these kind of workplace problems that we're talking about.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I think we can definitely seek out a therapist. I
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: think that might be a challenge sometimes because maybe we
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: don't think that the problems we're facing are serious enough
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: to see a therapist.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Interesting. So is that a self-inflicted barrier?
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Could be.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: That we're putting on to seeking therapy? Could be.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Could also be that we don't recognize that the situations
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: that we're dealing with have patterns that are deeper than simply,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I don't like my boss. Maybe it's a case of,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: I have a problem with authority. And where does that
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: come from? And that might be a deeper rooted problem
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: than simply XYZ person drives me crazy. Yes. I think
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: that a therapist can certainly help to root out some
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: of those things. And when we definitely know we have
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: a problem with authority and that that's grounded or rooted
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: in something deeper, then that's definitely a good place to
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: go and speak to some like a therapist about because
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: there's typically old stuff there that needs to be excavated, examined,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: looked at, re-evaluated now that you're an adult and not
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: really at whatever time that those situations occurred at. So
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the therapist could be a very helpful route.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I love that. And one of the challenges I see
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: with seeking therapy is that it might be a longer
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: turnaround time.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: If you're looking for help right now, it's not, maybe
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: it's not as accessible as you'd want it to be.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, especially right now we're in the middle of a
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: mental health care crisis. across, especially in the U.S. I'm
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: not sure about Canada these days. It's very difficult to
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: get in with a therapist, one. When you get in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: with a therapist, it takes several sessions before you figure
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: out whether or not you're connecting with this individual.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And so by then, you know, it could be months
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: have gone by. Yeah. I mean, we could seek out
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: a coach.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: We could. A coach, a consultant. I like the accessibility
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: of coaches. I think that there's very easy to identify
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: one that might help you with your particular situation.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I think we have to be careful with coaches. and consultants.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I think it goes back to really understanding what it
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: is that we're seeking. One of the ways that I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: distinguish between a consultant and a coach is that a
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: consultant brings expertise to the table. What you're seeking is
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: expertise on how to deal with a particular issue. If
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I have, let's take this out of the realm of
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: people and put it into the realm of, I want
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: somebody to help me with a taxation problem that I'm
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: having related to the way I'm handling imports in my
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: business or the way I'm handling chargebacks in my business.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: A coach is not going to be the best coach.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: place to go. You want a consultant. You want them
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: to bring the expertise that's needed to be able to
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: guide you in this situation. They're going to give you
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: some recommendations. They're going to look at the problem. They're
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: going to be able to counsel you on the whys
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: and wherefores of a particular situation. The problem I have
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: with the word coach is that we use it in
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: loose ways. Some people call themselves coaches, but they're really
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: functioning as consultants. Yeah.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Consultant to me means there's more of a prescriptive nature
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: to it.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: There's a clear process or a procedure to follow. For example,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I feel like my work lives on this line, right?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Because coaching is a lot of questioning.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: And helping the person that you're working with explore your truth.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: And then sometimes there is an answer. Do I turn
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: on my open to work green bar on my LinkedIn profile?
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I have a couple of answers that I feel passionately
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: about in that. And I can walk through those options
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: with my client. I could also approach that from a
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: coach perspective. Well, Sandra, what would you like to do?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: What are the benefits that you see of that? Why
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: are you thinking it's the option for you? There's a
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: few different ways to approach that. And I love this
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: element of expertise. Do you want someone that has done
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: this before? Right. I think these are all good questions
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: to think about. Yes. So now that we've laid the
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: groundwork for, I know I need help, then we can
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: say or answer or ask even the next question, which
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: is what kind of help? Right.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And who are you going to seek out for
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: that help? And I think the other part that we've
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: both alluded to is that therapy we tend to talk
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: about as a blanket term. Coaching we tend to talk
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: about as a blanket term. All therapists aren't the same.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: All coaches aren't the same. Even the way they practice
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: is not the same. Once you figure out what is
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the problem that I'm trying to fix here, how is
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: it showing up? What kind of support do I need best?
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: You might find it's not one person. You might find
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: it's a few people. Maybe I need a consultant. Maybe
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I need a consultant and a coach. Maybe I need
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: a coach and a therapist. Maybe I need to stop
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: talking to my best friend at work and hire a
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: consultant because my best friend at work is going to
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: get me in trouble with the IRS or CRA, depending
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: on which country I live in. I think there's lots
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: of different ways that we can tackle this. And perhaps
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: it's not just one person. Maybe it's a group. of
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: people and recognizing that we also need to bring our
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: own sense of expertise, our own sense of willingness to
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: engage in this process. Annette, I'm wondering where, as a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: career coach, where you might see that your clients could
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: benefit from getting another perspective or looking at getting a
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: broader support network in place?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: This is a great question. I often have the opportunity
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: to ask my clients because we're working on a very
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: specific point in their workplace lives. They're looking to leave
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: a job Maybe they're pivoting or maybe things aren't going
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: exactly as they want them to at their current workplace
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: and they want to make it go differently. We'll work
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: on strategies and processes to help them get through a
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: job change if that's what they want. Many times while
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: we're walking through that shift. there's also a piece where
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: they're dealing with some kind of trauma or like you
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: brought up, they're having a real difficult time working with
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: authority or they're taking on a new role, a leadership role,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and maybe they have unresolved challenges or trauma that's coming
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: in and bleeding into their work and they never noticed
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: it before. I get the option, I get the benefit
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: of asking many times, are you talking to someone? Do
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: you work with a mental health professional? Is that a
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: relationship you can re-engage with right now? Because that's not
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: my area of expertise.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: And I think what you're raising is a really good
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: point as well, is that often in the process of
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: working through a problem, we realize there's either a pattern
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: or a layer underneath the layer that we were aware
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: of that now is getting kicked up and that that
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: might be what drives the next step. of engaging somebody else.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: One of the things I know we've talked about before
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: is nothing can change until you're aware. So working through
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: these things and approaching them with a sense of curiosity
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: can create that level of awareness. Why is this person
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: bothering me? What is it about this person? Is it
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: always this person? it doesn't matter what they say, because
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: then that might lead you down a different route versus, no,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: it's only this person when they speak about these items. Oh, well,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: that might be interesting as well. Why do you think
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that is? How might that reflect other situations you found
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: yourself in? Yes, I think when we start working with
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: a problem or a pattern and we get curious about
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: those things and we allow ourselves to go in different
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: directions with it, we start to notice things that maybe
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: we weren't aware of before. And that is the start
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: of awareness.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Approaching everything with curiosity. What is the story that I'm carrying?
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: What is the story that I'm making this whole thing mean?
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: What actually happened? There's a lot of work that can
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: go on as we start to explore these problems.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I agree. And there's multiple other relationships that have spurred
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: from these conversations. So, you know, are you engaging in
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: therapy or is there a different kind of coach that
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: would help my client get to where they're going? Is
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: there a particular... course they can take or training. So sometimes,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: and then of course, I read a ton of books.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: So often I recommend a book. I'm like, have you
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: read this book? Look at this section right here to
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: give us a different perspective. Because sometimes we're just stuck
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: in what we think and we haven't allowed other information
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: in to help educate our perspective. And that can be
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: enough To help us feel unstuck. And then sometimes you
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: just need the help of other folks. And as a coach,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: as a quasi consultant, being open to the fact that
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: although I'm an expert, I'm not an expert at everything.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: I want to end my commentary on what you just said.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I think what you just said is so powerful. I
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: am an expert on many things. I'm not an expert
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: on you. Who's the expert on you? You. You. And
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: that is exactly why I really feel that as a coach,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: our job is to provide that curiosity, provide the perspective
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: that guides people to uncover what's true for me.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: What's your experience?
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: What is your.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Conversation, Sandra.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I love this. So I think, but we've left everybody
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: thinking and wondering, well, so like, what's the difference between
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: a coach, a consultant, a therapist?
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I guess they'll just have to come back and listen
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: next week because I think one... we'll get into deeper
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: is now that I know I need a different perspective,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: what kind of support do I need? What will give
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: me that different perspective? And then maybe we can talk
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: a little bit into what kind of help do you
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: really need? Yes.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yes. Yes. And in the meantime.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: We invite everyone to please go ahead and join our
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: newsletter at ExposingTheHiddenReality.com because we have continuing conversation in between
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: the episodes. We invite you to be a part of
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: that conversation. Sounds good. Then I'll see you next week, Sandra.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: See you next week, Annette. Bye-bye. Bye.