Transcript

Fail Faster · The Talent Trade

0:00
Stephanie Maas: Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade.
0:03
This is your host, Stephanie Maas, Partner with ThinkingAhead
0:08
Executive Search, and today, I am super excited to have
0:14
probably one of the all time greats with us from
0:16
ThinkingAhead, Brian Vogt. Brian was once again, our top
0:22
producer. Couple things I think everyone should know about
0:26
Brian, and help you, hopefully get excited to hear what he
0:30
wants to share with us today. Brian does this job the good old
0:35
fashioned way. He's incredibly well planned. He's very process
0:39
oriented. He's a phone guy, which is, I think, a little bit
0:43
of a novelty in his niche. He's diligent and consistent in his
0:47
work effort. It's no wonder he's been our top producer for
0:51
several years. The second thing I think you should know is Brian
0:55
is uniquely humble in his success and how he does what he
1:00
does. However, he has an alter ego named Brian that is not so
1:05
humble. So often we have to call on Brian to brag on Brian. Not
1:10
sure who we're going to get today, Brian, super excited to
1:14
have you here, and not sure which Brian we're getting, but
1:17
whoever is here, we're happy to have you.
1:20
Brian Vogt: Thank you, Stephanie, appreciate that there
1:22
was a couple things that I thought was important to chat
1:26
about. One of the big things what I've learned about this
1:30
over the years is a lot of the psychology associated with what
1:34
we do, and one of the things that's always dumbfounded me has
1:38
been trying to get to know what's really in the head of our
1:42
candidates. What are they really thinking? It always seems to me
1:46
like I never quite know what the real reason why they're open to
1:51
making a change until we get late in the process. And so one
1:55
of the things I've I've done is really changed how I ask
1:58
questions to candidates and learning to ask indirect
2:02
questions to them. Probably most recruiters do a good job of
2:06
during debrief calls or even prep calls, of asking
2:09
candidates. So tell me who you turn to when you make these
2:13
kinds of big decisions, whether it's a significant other,
2:17
whether it's a parent a friend, what I've learned to do over the
2:21
years is ask, instead of directly asking them what they
2:25
think of these things, it's asking them. So tell me that
2:28
important person in your life that helps you make these
2:32
decisions. What do they think of this opportunity? What are the
2:36
things that they're saying? So Stephanie, I'm going to I'm
2:40
going to ask you a question. If I were to ask you, tell me how I
2:44
was going to actually ask, How would I describe you? But I
2:48
don't want to do that to you. I think that would be kind of
2:52
rough. But if I were to ask your children, how would they
2:56
describe you as a mother, what do you think they would say?
3:00
Stephanie Maas: Depending on the day, I think they would say I
3:02
was very silly. My silliness is probably a little bit annoying,
3:05
but I wear that like a badge of honor, because honestly, if
3:08
you're not annoying your kids, you're doing something wrong. I
3:11
think they would say I'm incredibly loving and would do
3:14
anything for them.
3:15
Brian Vogt: No, that's great. I think that's awesome. But what
3:18
just happened is, when I asked you that question, you stopped
3:22
for a second and said, Okay, how would my kids respond? And we
3:26
aren't going to put words in someone else's mouth, so we
3:29
really have to think about, what would they say about this? And
3:33
so that's been one of the things I've learned over the years is
3:38
Hey, asking that indirect question, not directly, asking
3:41
the candidate or even a client, what do they think of this
3:45
individual? But actually asking, what is that important person in
3:49
your life? What would they say about this opportunity? What
3:53
would they say about these things? Another thing I thought
3:57
was interesting I started, and I this is obviously something that
4:01
I've heard over the years from other people. Is a good question
4:05
to give to candidates if they're going through the interview
4:09
process, is saying to them, if you're talking to your future
4:13
boss or your future mentor, ask them this tough question. If I
4:17
were to ask other people that have worked for you, how would
4:21
they describe you as a mentor, as a boss, and you will get
4:24
immediate, Frank answers to that question, because people don't
4:28
want to put words in everybody else's mouth.
4:32
Stephanie Maas: Let's do a role play on a debrief. I want to
4:33
know like, pretend you just sent me out on an interview, and
4:36
we're doing a debrief. I'm the candidate, you're the recruiter.
4:39
How exactly does that sound. And let's pretend you know who my
4:42
important person is. Let's use some very real information.
4:45
Brian Vogt: Yeah, so usually, what I would ask you, Stephanie
4:48
is, tell me about the the interview. You know, tell me
4:51
about the types of questions you got from the interview, mainly
4:54
kind of asking you, hey, what? What did they say to you? What
4:57
kind of questions Did they ask you? And then I would. Also get
5:00
into you know, did anything pop up that maybe concerns you
5:05
during the process? Any Did they say anything, or did anything
5:09
kind of strike you as odd or off, if I coached you properly,
5:13
did you ask a clarifying question when something was off
5:17
and then finally, did you guys discuss next steps in the
5:20
process. Where do we go from there? Now, at this point, when
5:24
I'm starting to wrap up the call, this is usually when I go,
5:27
Hey, by the way, did you have a chance? I know you and I talked
5:30
about that important person to your life, your your good
5:34
friend, whatever. Tell me, you know, did you have a chance to
5:37
discuss the interview with them? And what was their feedback?
5:41
You'll notice, I never asked them, What do you think? I don't
5:45
want them to tell me what they think. I want them to tell me
5:49
what that important person of their life is, is providing
5:53
information. Because typically, what we do is we turn to those
5:57
in our lives that think the same way we do have the same goals
6:03
and are good advisors for us. So a lot of times, the real meat
6:08
and concerns will come forward during that discussion.
6:12
Stephanie Maas: You know, it's so interesting because the other
6:15
side of that too is those are the people that we trust. They
6:18
usually want what's best for us, and yet we can also heavily
6:22
influence their support with our feedback to them. So in this
6:25
scenario, the behind the scenes, which is really what I think
6:29
you're unveiling here, is, you know, after the interview ends,
6:33
I'm going to call my brother and I'm going to say, Oh my gosh.
6:36
Let me tell you, I loved it. It was great. This and this and
6:40
this, and my brother's feedback is going to be, well, hey, this
6:44
sounds like a great opportunity for you. I'm really excited. And
6:47
then, therefore, he will give me his support because of what I
6:51
shared with him. He may ask some Hey, make sure you find about
6:55
this. Make sure you find out about that. But wow, this sounds
6:58
really great for you. So the key here, and I love this, is when
7:02
you ask, Hey, what does your spouse think? What does your
7:05
support person think? What is, you know, whatever, what you're
7:09
really asking is, what did you tell them? What therefore, is
7:13
their response? But then also, it sheds light on, if there is
7:16
hesitation or concern, it'll be reflected back by that person,
7:20
and then, you know, hey, this other person that's a major
7:23
influencer, and they're at big decision making is not on board.
7:27
If our major influencers in our life are not on board with the
7:31
decision we're going to make, we're rarely going to make that decision.
7:35
Brian Vogt: Yeah, absolutely. I always find it interesting when
7:38
suddenly they begin to mention things that we never discuss,
7:42
right? Well, they mentioned I should be paid better. Oh,
7:46
really. Well, you and I had discussed that pay wasn't a
7:50
major issue. So, so now, why is this suddenly coming out, right?
7:54
You know, mentorship is important. Well, I'm, I'm not
7:57
sure if I'm getting that right? So that's always interesting,
8:01
and we unveil those concerns, but we also get to talk about
8:05
them, right? Because a lot of times, if you don't get these
8:09
concerns out in the open, they fester, then they pop up later
8:13
when an offer comes out, and suddenly you find out, well, I
8:17
don't really want to accept this because of there's this
8:21
lingering concern that I wasn't aware of. The only other thing I
8:25
was going to bring up was the CEO of Nvidia was talking about,
8:29
he was asked the question, you know, how do you coach people to
8:34
become more successful? And he said something I thought was
8:38
very profound. And he said, you know, he goes, what we find is
8:42
everybody's going to make mistakes, everybody's going to
8:45
fail. People are going to, you know, have to go through this
8:49
process of learning, and failure is part of that problem. But
8:53
what he said to people is, they've learned. We coach them
8:57
to fail faster, the faster we can teach them to fail over and
9:01
over again, the quicker they will suddenly realize, hey, I
9:05
figured this out. Now I can get to the point of being
9:09
successful. So if I could coach people that are new to this
9:13
industry, I would just tell you, hey, faster you fail at this,
9:17
the more mistakes you make. Don't look at it as a bad thing,
9:21
look at it as a good thing. So you can learn to be successful.
9:25
Stephanie Maas: I love that, and I do want to share with our
9:28
audience this mentality at work, and that's with you, Brian. When
9:32
Brian joined our firm, you know, we kind of put the standard of,
9:36
you know, you make 50 calls a day. Well, Brian's like, well, I
9:39
don't want to be the average first year producer. I'm going
9:43
to make more than 50 calls a day. You know, we set up a
9:47
Monday through Friday schedule of how to plan your day to get
9:50
the most out of your day. Brian said, Hey, that's not going to
9:54
cut it for me. My first year, I'm going to be committed to
9:58
working, you know, Sunday afternoons to get all my
10:01
sourcing and administrative work done. And it's not about being a
10:05
workaholic or being so dogged that you don't have a life
10:09
outside the job, but it's this exact idea I want to hurry up
10:12
and learn this business is absolutely fast as I can, which
10:16
means you're going to make mistakes along the way. But
10:19
this, the sooner you get those hurdles and speed bumps out of
10:23
the way, the sooner the road opens up. Sounds super novel at
10:27
the same time, because he set that example. He also trained
10:31
the top first year that three years ago, we had a 25 year
10:34
first year production record. She came in and broke that
10:38
record. It stood for 25 years, but it was again on this
10:41
mentality of, hey, do more sooner. Do more faster. So it's
10:45
not just a Hey. It's a great thing to think mentality. But
10:48
I'm a huge believer in you don't listen to what people say. You
10:52
watch what they do. And Brian at the time, you weren't saying,
10:56
Hey, I'm going to fail faster, but you did, and I think there's
11:00
a lot to be said for that, so kudos for you for setting that
11:04
example for us.
11:05
Brian Vogt: I appreciate that. Yeah, and as a matter of fact,
11:08
another person on the team this year came on the team just over
11:11
a year ago and became a partner and and really just followed,
11:15
followed what I did, work harder, work faster, and get to
11:18
that point of of understanding this and becoming more
11:21
successful. So it's definitely something that I will preach and
11:25
believe in. And I think I don't know if I have the perfect
11:28
method all the time, but I think what I do definitely works, and
11:32
proof has been in the pudding on those around me on my team.
11:35
Stephanie Maas: Absolutely. Fanastic.