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#1636 Uses For Obsession - Ben Shewry · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I get a team with Bloody rolling. We started the
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: good stuff before we press the go button. So fuck it.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I've just put the pause button on Ben Sury, Tiffany
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: and called Craig Ethney half of the You Project. We're
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: just talking, Ben Surry, welcome officially to the typ Thanks
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: for joining.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Us, thanks for having me, thanks for being hat champion.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Now we're just talking about your aversion to dogs, but
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: your love of cats and Tiff was a little bit upset.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Let's unpack that. What's she suggested you might be a sociopath.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I want to hear your defense.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I have a very clear defense to go straight to
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: my backstory. I grew up on a farm in New
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Zealand and dogs are working animals, so you don't play
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: with that. In fact, you're not even allowed to play
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: with them, otherwise you might ruin them and they can't
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: mustard the sheet properly. So you know, you guys can
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: come back at me with something now if you like.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: But what do you go?
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: That's Tiff, what do you I can't see your dog
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: must doing anything other than the cat, and I feel
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: like your cat's more likely to muster your dog. So
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: your two animals apart from being cute, are fucking useless.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to I agree with you there, Craig.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I do look at the domestic dogs in Melbourne. I
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: think they are quite useless. They couldn't muster a sheep
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: or be of any use on a farm.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: No, they couldn't muster for a fucking butterfly. Anyway, They
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: muster my emotions.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Doesn't that count. That's a bit of a fun that
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: does count.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't. They have definitely corralled you into the
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: top emotional paddock and they've got you stuck in the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: corner like a fucking in an emotional prison, with the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: keys being held by a fucking dog and a cat
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: being helped to ransom in your own place. Hey, beneficially,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. You're a busy man,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: and yeah, we appreciate you taking the time.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: That's an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Now without me doing some boring monologue about how amazing
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: you are and all the shit you've done. Can you
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: give to seven people on in my audience who don't
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: know you. I'm suggesting the majority do that who don't
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: know you. Can you give us the self bio?
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: What do you.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: You know, when people don't know you, which I'm sure
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: happens periodically, and they go, what do you do? What's
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: the answer to that?
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I hate talking about myself in that way, but I
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: guess I'm a chef. I own a restaurant called Attica
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: in Melbourne. I live a very passionate life and I'm
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: into people and everything kind of I come from New
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Zealand and I'm a dad friend trying not to fuck
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: anything up too much. That's kind of generally my my idea.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Well, you fucked it up with TIF straight out of
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  Speaker 1: the gates, so you've got about now to repair that
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: damage relationship with B.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: I'll try hard.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I feel like you're an uh. I was going to
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: phrase say frustrated, but definitely not frustrated, but I feel
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: like you're an artist. Like I knew of you, but
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: didn't You and I had a brief chat the other
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: day for about thirty nine seconds, and I've got to
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: know each other a little bit. I knew about Attica,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: I knew about you, but I didn't know you. But
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: the more I've been having to look at your stuff
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: and reading about you and listening to a bit recently,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like you're really just an artist who expresses
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: himself in different ways.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting take that you get straight to that
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: there's a history of shit of sort of ridiculing chefs
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: that call themselves artists. So there's always that kind of
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: history in that part of our culture where I'm kind
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: of reluctant to call myself an artist. But certainly the
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: project of the restaurant is an art project. You know,
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  Speaker 2: it's not a it's not really like a business that
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense. It's fairfully independent. We work
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: with people for more many backgrounds, from artists to writers,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: to musicians, to makers to growers, and it's just a
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: really fun project that's sort of full passion and where
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: we really get to expect express ourselves creatively in any
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  Speaker 2: way we.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Want to m when you're growing up on that farm
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  Speaker 1: with those dogs that you treated like bloody slaves. Sorry, Tiff,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: I don't want to keep opening that wound. What did
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: you think you were going to do when you were
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  Speaker 1: in inverted commas? Big?
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: When I was big? What do you mean, like like,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: you know, when.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: You're an actual when you were grown up?
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  Speaker 2: What did you what did you what did you want
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  Speaker 2: to do? Maybe Well, the only thing I ever wanted
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  Speaker 2: to do from day dot, really from as young as
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: I can remember, and it even sort of predates my memory,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: was to become a shift So that starts at h
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: five for me. And I'm absolutely certain about that. Why
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I was so certain, I'm not entirely sure. I mean,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: it's definitely growing up around the love of cooking and
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: being so so close to primary ingredients and my mother
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  Speaker 2: making food from our farm and from the land. But
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: there was no cooks in my family. It wasn't really
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  Speaker 2: a thing in the early eighties. It's not like it
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: is now where people become famous and have large followings,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: and it's just a completely different time. So I guess
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  Speaker 2: my desire to become a shift this came from a
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  Speaker 2: pure love of cooking.
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  Speaker 1: And what is it like to I mean, it's a
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  Speaker 1: dumb question, but I'm genuinely curious to have to have
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a business that's been called one of the top Well
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: is one you and I chat the other day about
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  Speaker 1: how do you even evaluate that? But it is regarded
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  Speaker 1: as one of the best restaurants or top fifty in
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  Speaker 1: the world. I don't know how many fucking restaurants there are,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: well but let's just go with a shitload. Does that
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  Speaker 1: make you feel proud or uneasy or like, I'm sure
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  Speaker 1: that's a great achievement or a great accolade at the
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: very least, But how does that sit with you?
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: It's a very odd thing for me, because you know
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: that there's never been the reason for the work. You know,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: like I said, the work is about being with an
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  Speaker 2: incredible team of people and serving an amazing group of
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  Speaker 2: customers and doing this thing with all of your heart
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: and mind really, and there's other stuff that kind of
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: comes along, these things that other people bestow upon you,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: but also can kind of remove very easily as well.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: It's a bit odd because I've been very careful, Craig
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: to sort of never attach an even my personal work
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: to these sorts of awards, and at different times I've
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: appreciated them, particularly in my early years. But you know,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: you win something, if you let that go to your head,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: it'll also destroy you. You know, if you think the
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: work's done and that there's effectively there's an awards ceremony,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: you're anointed whatever you are, and then the next day
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: the work has to begin again. And so pretty early
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  Speaker 2: on I learned that that wasn't the reason for it.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know how. It makes me feel just kind
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: of odd, Like like we discussed yesterday, you know, how
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: can you really say what the top fifty restaurants in
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: the world are, Like, that's not really possible, actually, and
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that that don't get the
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: attention that they should for various reasons.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I think it's quite I don't know if you did
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: that accidentally or intentionally or intuitively, but that that thing
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  Speaker 1: not to attach your self worth or your identity to
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  Speaker 1: the thing that you're good at, or like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: to an award or a brand or a that's quite
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  Speaker 1: smart because my experience is when people have their identity
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  Speaker 1: intertwined with their accolades or their you know, the status
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  Speaker 1: of their business or their career, at that point in time,
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  Speaker 1: when that goes away, they're fucked because you know that
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  Speaker 1: that thing that made them them that isn't there anymore,
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  Speaker 1: and then they don't know who the fuck they are.
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  Speaker 2: No, And I couldn't agree more or and it's something
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: to be so cautious of. I wrote a line recently
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: which I was proud of, which which which which says
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: most climbers are killed on the descent. And by that
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  Speaker 2: I mean you know, actually physically on Everestore or any
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: other huge mountain that's you know, you're tied you on
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  Speaker 2: the way down, that's when it gets to you run
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  Speaker 2: out of oxygen or the storm overcomes you. But also
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: in that sense of like socially climbing or climbing the
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  Speaker 2: ladder of fame and awards and accolades, nobody can ever
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  Speaker 2: stay on top forever. And so if you don't have
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: some sort of central values to latch onto and to
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  Speaker 2: lock onto that, and you don't if you're doing it
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  Speaker 2: for the wrong reasons, you know, and they can never
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  Speaker 2: be for fame actually, because that's that's just just fleeting.
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  Speaker 2: And and if you're not prepared for that to leave you,
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  Speaker 2: like if you don't understand it, that's just temporary or
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  Speaker 2: not even real, and you're going to get really lost
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  Speaker 2: when that goes.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. I wrote a book years ago,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, fifteen years ago, one of my books,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: and in this I have this pretend conversation with this dude,
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  Speaker 1: which was really a reflection of many actual conversations. But
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: it goes something like, so I sit down with a client,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: which I used to I used to own gyms and stuff,
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  Speaker 1: which you know, And I'd sit down with people who'd
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: come in because they want to, you know, change their body,
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  Speaker 1: their mindset, habits, behavior's outcome, health, blah blah blah blah blah.
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  Speaker 1: And I'd go, so, tell me about you, and then
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: they'd tell me about their business, or then that'd tell
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: me about their brand, or then they'd tell me about
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: their address where they live. Then that tell me about
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  Speaker 1: their kids or that. I go, yeah, cool, that's all good.
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  Speaker 1: But none of that is you tell me about you.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Don't tell me about where you live, or what you drive,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: or what you own, or what you earn, or what
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  Speaker 1: your job is or where tell me about you. They
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: don't know what the fuck to say because they don't
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  Speaker 1: know who they are beyond all those identifiers. You know. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's a philosophical kind of question, isn't it. It is?
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  Speaker 2: And I imagine for a lot of people it's very
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  Speaker 2: hard to answer. But for me personally, you know, my wealth,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you know, my personal wealth is never like as a human,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: is not attached to what I do at the restaurant.
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  Speaker 2: I think I can apply my creativity to other things
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: like renovating a house, for example, which I've done multiple times,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: or skateboarding. And I've often said that this thing that
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I love doing, which is running this restaurant and with
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: these amazing people, that I never let that die. You
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: know that I work to protect that. But when the feeling,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: the euphoria from creating new things at the restaurant is gone,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I will stop doing it and I will look to
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: do something else. So yeah, I just think that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's just a folly to link yourself to your occupation
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  Speaker 2: too much. Try to limit yourself even in that way.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I don't think you can really grow if you're not
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: really thinking about who you are.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Do you run the restaurant yourself? Like, are you the
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: are you the day to day boss?
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Yes? One of them? Yep, I'm the director, I guess.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I run it with my wife Kylie, so we co
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: run it. But we also have quite a big team.
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  Speaker 2: We have forty employees, we have you know, a hitd chef,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: we have a restaurant manager, we have more junior people,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: and so there's a good group of us running it actually,
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  Speaker 2: But yes, I am their day to day pretty much
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: every day. Still, it's down nineteenth year this year. So yeah,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: you've got to love it.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: You know, what's your what's your take on leadership? Because
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I mean you got forty people, there's forty personalities, forty humans,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: forty backstories, forty expectations, you know, psychology, physiology, emotions, sociology.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: What's your take on leadership and how do you do it?
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Well? You know, I'll be honest with you. In the
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: early days, you know, I started to attic here when
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: I was twenty seven, and I was a completely useless leader.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how to I don't know
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: how to support people or prop people up or you know,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: give them any kind of feedback, and so like I
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: really failed those early teams, you know. But there's something
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: that I absolutely linked becoming a great leader of something
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I linked to I guess, the overall performance of the
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: business and not just the performance, but the well being
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: of the people there too. So in the last decade
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: OR worked really hard and one of the things on leadership,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: but one of the things that I rise over everything
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: else is directness, respectful directness. Just tell people what you
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: need and what you think, do it in a way
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  Speaker 2: that doesn't hurt them. Do it in a way that
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: they know that you've got their personal growth in mind
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: and that what you're saying is more than benefiting the business,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: but benefiting them long term too. So I really acutely
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: disliked bullshit. So I will kind of sort of leader
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: that will work through the business to kind of eliminate
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: any anything that I think is bullshit that we're doing
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: and not direct because I want to kind of be
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: as direct as I can with our customers in our
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: expression as well creatively. And there's a variety of things
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: and unusual kind of ways we go about bringing this
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: team together. But I always believe very very strongly that
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: empathy is the oldest sibling of performance. So we need
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: to have an empathetic workplace. That's not to say that
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: that stuff doesn't happen, or things don't go wrong, or
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: sometimes people might have an argument or dislike each other.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: That's just human nature. But I guess I'm really talking
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: about eliminating toxic negativity, you know, And so I'm pretty
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: strict on that. Like, you know, whatever's going on in
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: your life, you know, you need to still come to
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: work with a super positive attitude. Now, if you can't,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: of course, we're going to support you and look after
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: you and try to help you. But really like your
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: personal mental health and your well being in an environment,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: in a job where it's fair, that you're properly paid,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: that you're not getting bullied or harassed. It's your responsibility
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: if those things are straight, you know, And and that
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: begins and ends with me as well. Right, So I
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: can't come to work in a shitty mood with a
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: shitty attitude, because I'm asking my team to come to
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: work with a great attitude and to bring it every day.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: So no, really, I think the leader has absolutely got
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: to live what they're breaching.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. It's I employed con what did
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: I employ about five hundred people over the years in
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: my gyms, and it was a constant juggling act of
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: psychology and sociology and practicality and trying to create that
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: trying to create a place where people want to be
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: ben You know, I do lots of corporate speaking now,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: and one of the things I ask bosses, managers' leaders
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: is do people want to be in this place? Do
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: people like coming here? I know there's a lot of
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: other questions after that, but if the answer to that
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: question is no, you've fucked.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: So I could not agree more great.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. It's like people. It doesn't
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: mean you've got to be their best friend, but if
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: they don't kind of like you or respect you, that's tough.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: And then if you've got a place of culture and
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: environment that people don't want to be in, fack, there's
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: lots of work to do. So yeah, and it's again
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: with different because you can say one thing to Sally
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and she's cool, you say the same thing to Tiffany
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: because she's high maintenance and oh sorry, tif oh you
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: know it's not gonna it's not going to work. And
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: so you've got to navigate this myriad of complex kind
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: of social interactions as well as being tough and strong.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: That's a real jug, yeah, actor.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: It really is. And I think, you know, I think
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: the main thing that people are listening here and wanting
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: to be better leaders and better in business, the main
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: thing I would say is to is to actually just
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: try try to improve yourself, try to improve your leadership
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: and do it incrementally. But it's pretty easy to think,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: you know what, I'm a really shitty leader and I've
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: got no hope. But I would say, just try to
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: change a small thing one percent every day perhaps about
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: what you're doing, and over time and pretty quickly you
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: will realize that you've kind of revolutionized the culture. To
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: your point about the psychology of workplaces, I mean, my wife, Kylie,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: who's really responsible so much for the success of our business.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: She's three quarters of the way through a psychology degree
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: in no small part to basically deal with exactly what
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: you're saying. You know, humans are complicated in our once
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: and our needs and our desires and our emotion and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: ups and downs, you know, and that's never going away,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: no matter how the team you've got, no matter who
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you select, that's always going to kind of be a constant.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: But I would say that there's a rule that I
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: kind of apply and I think it's helpful. And I
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: learned this through coaching youth basketball through my son's team.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: But I say, the low's never too low and the
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: high is never too high. And by that I mean
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: if you just kind of come through the middle as
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: a leader and you don't overreact when there's a low
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: point in the business or something goes wrong, and if
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: you don't over celebrate something that you've done really well,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: like just kind of keep it in the middle. I
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: think there's sort of a security in people for that,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: you know, like with your team, that the leaders not
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: over celebrating the winds and not and not doubling down
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: and going super aggressive when things go wrong, because they
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: will go wrong, and they go wrong in every business.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is is from the
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: outside people look in it, a successful organization can go well,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: everything must just be perfectly every day, And the reality
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: is nothing is further from the truth. And every successful
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: organization is really finding the same problems as any as
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: any other one. And the reality is it's just sort
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: of how you deal with those problems and who you
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: deal with them with. And also think just lastly, you know,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: not not repeating those same mistakes as a pretty big
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: one on leadership. You know, if something goes wrong, analyze
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: it and you go, you know what, I'm not going
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: to end up back there because that sucked for everybody.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I read a book years ago which you
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: you're way younger than me, which is fucking annoying. But anyway,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: so called the myth. Have you ever heard of that book?
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I have not known? Buck Off all right, anyway. Now
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: it came out the same time as the Bible anyway,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: so wow, the Old Testament New Testament was proceeded the
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: New Testament. But anyway, a guy called Gerber wrote that,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Michael Gerber, I think it was. And the e myth
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: is about this idea, Mike Ben that you've got to
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: work on the business. Not you've got to work in
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: the business, but to be able to build it and
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: develop it, you've got to be able to step awongeally.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: It's hard to be objective about the thing that you're
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: in the middle of. And you know, I've always immersed
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: in my business, which sometimes gives me a really good, visceral,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: subjective experience of what's going on. But it's only when
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: I step back into the macro and out of the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: micro that I can kind of have that bigger picture vision.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: My clumsy, long winded, fucking question is, in terms of
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: your career and Attica and all the things that you do,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: how much of that is kind of big picture planning,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: macro strategic, long term timeline projection, and how much is
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: you just in the middle of it being instinctive and intuitive.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: It's probably ninety nine percent of me just being in
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: the middle of it, living in the moment, knowing and
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: kind of understanding that the moment, like right now, I'm
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: You're the only thing I can focus on right now,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: this conversation, this interview. I'm not worried about what's happening
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: after this. That's really kind of how I go. I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: really really want to ring the most out of my
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: life that I can, and I've found by absolutely focusing
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: on every day and just living it to the fullest
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: and trying to get the most out of it that
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I've been a lot happier. I'm not a great forward planner,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and I'm not really tremendous at reflecting on the past either,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: because I've always kind of wanted to evolve. But I'm
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: fortunate in our business that I do have other people
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: who are making those longer term plans. But for me,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: a long term plan is a month. You know, I
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: kind of don't want to talk about, like, unless it's
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: something that's obviously like critical, I don't really want to
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: talk about it, you know. I kin't want to talk
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: about what are we going to do today again kind
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: of idea. You know.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So here's a philosophical question to feel free to
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: jump in. I feel like you might have a question
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: for the great man. My research is around this thing
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I mentioned to you when we
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: chatted the other day called metapception, which is essentially your
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: ability to understand the Ben experience for others. So the
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: question at the core of my research is what's it
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: like being around me for the rest of the world,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: but my wife, for my kids, for my team, for strangers,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: for my customers. What do you think the Ben experience
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: is like for others?
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: What a fascinating thing to study. Great I think that's
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: amazing that you've done that, because I think so few
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: leaders actually think about how they're affecting other people, either
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: positively or negatively, and I think we all, to some
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: degree affect other people positively negatively. I'm acutely aware of
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: of my influence over my team and of others, and
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: that's why I do call myself a leader for my industry,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: because I think that especially chef's chefs will do anything
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: for each other. We are mad generally, right, like, we
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: have a history of working insane hours and being put through,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: you know, various forms of kind of torture by our
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: industry and by our employees historically, and so I'm acutely
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: aware of that history and also of my own personal
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: history about how I've I've gone through that too. At
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the age of forty, I'd already worked the retirement age.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: I'd already worked the amount of hours that are somebody
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: retiring at sixty five had, you know, And I did
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: reflect upon that. You know, I probably didn't think that
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: was that well, that's great, you know, certainly it wasn't
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: paid for them, and so that obviously makes you think
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: about your own, your staff's experience, but also just of
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: your influence on them. So what I'm kind of what
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of trying to say to you, is that
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I am really mindful of my own ambition with my
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: employees because there are times literally if I asked them
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: to walk up a cliff with me, they probably would,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: you know. So I need to be self aware in
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: that way. There's little things that I do, I suppose
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: and little rules that kind of I personally have with
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: the staff. And one of them is very simple, and
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I think it's it's not an exceptional rule, but it's
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: just say say hello, how are you to every single
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: person in the building every single day. Yeah, and so,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: and not in a formulatic way, not going around hi, no,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: actually genuinely just take thirty seconds, so just ask hey,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: how are you? And you know, occasionally somebody will say,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not great, and I'll say, well, hey,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: you know what's going on? You know, and now they
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: may tell me or they may say, no, I'm going
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: to be all right. I'm just I'm just having a
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: bit of a day. But I've got my you know,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I focus on the job and other times, you know,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: we'll have a coffee and we'll chat about it, you know,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: because I guess I'm one of the older members of
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: the team, you know, I've been through most of the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: struggles that that people go through. Yeah, so i'd really
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: try to be aware. I don't think you can ever
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: be fully completely aware of how you are. But one
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: thing I strive not to be is ever harsh, because
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I think you can really crush somebody, particularly somebody that
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: looks up to you, just by talking to them the
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: wrong way. And so if I ever do that, which
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: is very rare, and I can think of an example
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: in the last three years where I was actually doing
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: an interview, but like this in the office, and a
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: young chef is a really lovely person, came into the office,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: came in behind me, and he sort of just started
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: talking to me over my shoulder and ask me questions,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: and I said, can you just just give me a second,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: you know, And I was just kind of like frustrated
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: and a bit annoyed, but he's he's such a genuinely
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: beautiful person, and so I huffed at him a little
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: bit and I said, oh god, you know, that would
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: have bloody crushed him a bit, you know. So a
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: couple of hours later, or an hour later, after I
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: finished that call, I went in and I said, hey, listen,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I'm really sorry about that. And he said, oh, no, no,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: there was nothing to be sorry about. I shouldn't approach it.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: And I said, no, no, I didn't live up to
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: my own expectations. You're a really great person. I'm really
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: sorry about that. And he sort of beamed, you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: and we both knew that was the truth.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: You know, that's amazing, well one mate, and I'm not
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: pissing in your pocket. That's amazing awareness, situational self awareness
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and also social intelligence to know that that's the right
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: thing to do, and humility to be able to go no, mate,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I'm the problem. Like that's so. I listened to this
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: podcast the other day and there were these two two
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: people talking and they said this. One of them said
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: this interesting thing. This so I forget this psychologist. And
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: she said something like, for all of the problems that
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: you have in your life, you're there for a one
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: hundred percent of them. That's incredible, right, And also for
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: all the dysfunctional relationships and problems in relationships you've had,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: you're the only common denominator.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Right, Oh my goodness.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Now that's not to say, that's not to say that
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: that person's always the problem, but it's like, it's funny
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: how when people talk about shit, they really go, ah,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: this is going on in my life with this bloody Ben.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Me and Ben. And by the way, I'm the problem.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Nobody says that no. No.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: So that awareness, that awareness that you had to go no,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: made one hundred percent me And that's great and rare.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Well, you know, I think the bucks has
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: stop with me ultimately, you know, if we succeed or fail,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: it's come and going to be on me. You know.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I've had some really great teachers in that way though, too,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: and I'll give you this example of this friend, Miriam,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: who we were having this conversation. She's from South Sudan
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: and we're having this conversation at her place once about
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: this guy that had kind of come in to her
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: garden and just sort of started ranting about how terrible
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: the garden was, and we were having a bit of
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: a laugh about it, and she was saying that being
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: negative is a full time job, and she was joking
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: about how his realist person was really putting it back
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: into it. You know, I really committed to it, like
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: and I like to have kind of examples of people,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: you know, who find kind of culpability their own culpability
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: and kind of almost any situation. And for Miriam, you know,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: had been this experience of racism that was so pervasive
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: when when there was this rhetoric in the media about
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: African games, and she is a migrant, and she said, well,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: what could I do about this, you know? And she
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: decided that she could educate people, that she could bring
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: people into a home and teach her about her culture.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: And I said, oh my god, you're being subjected to
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: this horrible, horrible racist trope, and yet you are going
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try to find some small solution about it.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, what example, what could I possibly have
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: to stop me from not finding some culpability in any
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: kind of aspect of my life. I think, you know,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: we're seldom ever completely innocent. I would say that she
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: was completely innocent, but yeah, she is like, well I
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: need to do something about it, you know.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. It is amazing, and it is it's
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: so easy to be all about problems, and it's so
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: easy to be all about blame and transference and avoidance.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: But to be able to go you know, it's like
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: when I talk about which people get uncomfortable with. But
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: I was a morbidly obese kid, right I was. I
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: was over I was like ninety five kilos when I
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: was fourteen. I'm eighty five kilos now, and I was
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: six inches shorter and my name at school was Jumbo
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: and all this stuff. Right, But yeah, but I talk
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: about like I created that. You know. It's like and yeah,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I was a kid, but I ate my way into that,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and at some stage I needed to take responsibility and go, well, look,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: nobody's making me sit on the couch, nobody's making me
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: eat all the fucking cake that I love nobody's you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: and that being being able to be self aware and
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: responsible without the self loathing bend. You know, I think
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: where you're you're just taking ownership without beating yourself up.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: There's a big there's a big space between I could
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: do better and I'm a fucking idiot. I always get
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: this wrong, you know, there's.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: A big space. Old line thinking is hard. Blaming as easy,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: isn't it, you know, And I mean that's a you know,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: that's a profound personal experience that you've had as well, Craig.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: You know, that's that I can I can relate to
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that on some levels. You know. It was also an
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: overweight teenager. You know, it was at one hundred and
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: three kilos at one point, and you know, I went
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: down into the late seventies and now I'm at about
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: age six, and you know, I think also, like for men,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: it's not like something that it's easy to talk about
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: our weight or our body image, e the you know,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: something that I've kind of had to come to terms
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: with in the last couple of years. I've always struggled
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: So I really.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Sympathized with you, you know, and understand where you're coming from.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I grew up very much with digressing, but fuck it,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: this is where we're going. Like, I grew up very
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: much identifying with my body, you know, and I thought
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: because I was, you know, that was my name. My
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: name was my jumbo and you know all that stuff
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: which my listeners have heard too many times. But you know,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: being picked last for sporting teams and all those things
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: that come with being unathletic and unfit and fat, and
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and the social stuff and the emotional stuff
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: and the physiological stuff and the practical stuff, and then
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: it's hard when you Then I got in shape, like you,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: very fit, very strong, very lean, started to become, probably
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: in an unhealthy way, obsessive and all that shit. But
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: then then I really started to identify myself capital s
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: self with my body, and they became indistinguishable. Where I
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: went well and if I looked good, I felt better,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and if I look put on two kilos, I felt shit.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: And if someone complimented my appearance, I felt good. And
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: so I was always seeking approval and love and connection
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and validation through this thing that I lived in. Right,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: That's that's a journey, and that's a journey like a
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: lot of people are on.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I think, oh, one hundred percent, such a tough one.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: You know, it's so difficult.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well you and I got through it. I'm still
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: a work in progress though, I'm still a fuck with
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: around food. Hey, I wanted to ask you a little
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: bit about dealing with pressure, like you were talking about
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: the the craziness that goes on in kitchens. When I
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: was a kid, my parents owned a restaurant and sell
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: in a restaurant, and I remember the the interesting chefs,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: you know if they were interesting and talented, artistic, creative,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: high maintenance some of them. But tell me about your
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the way that you deal with pressure and expectations and
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: all the you know, the behind the scenes drama that
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: can be in a very high profile, very successful because
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: when people are coming to Attaka, they expect awesome, and
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: so you've got to do Yeah.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: No, there's a great question. There is a lot of
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: pressure and the way that I've dealt with that pressure myself,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: this is probably not quite the same as the way
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: that the staff have to deal with it. The way
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: that I've dealt with it is to and without wanting
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: to say on egotist school, or arrogant is to sort
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: of understand that I'm the expert in this and that
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I've dedicated my life to this craft completely since the
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: time that I was a small child, that I've worked
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the seventy five eighty l weeks, that I've struggled and
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: built this thing through determination and through my hands and
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: through my mind. Therefore, I set higher standard for myself
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: than anybody else could for me. Does that make.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Sense to you.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, So that's sort of just like that's not something
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I've really shared with anybody before, but that's kind of
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: my mentality. And that's not to say that I always
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: get it right or that I'm always perfect, but genuinely
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I said my standard for the team. You're completely correct
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: how our customers come with really really high expectations. You know,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: some people come expecting, you know, a near religious experience,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: and that's actually not something to believe it or not
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: that we can offer. But but it doesn't mean that
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: we that we won't die trying. You know, we are
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: completely committed to two excellence for our guests, but for
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: our staff, we want that that excellence to be manageable
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: and traditionally, as I mentioned, kitchens are ruled through fear,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: you know, and and sort of they've been very misogynistic,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: male dominated places. You know, that's a fact. And they
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: still are largely the you know, women still don't have
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: the same opportunities as men in hospitality in regards to
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: running kitchens. So that I think we just have to
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: say that and and understand it. But they've been ruled
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: with an iron First, there is a system of hierarchy
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: that comes out of France and kitchens, and and you
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: dare not make a mistakeless or put a foot wrong,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: or the fist will come down upon you, sometimes actually physically,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: but often mentally. So there've been places of abuse and fear.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: And to me, you know, the idea that a kitchen
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: can't be kind and high performance is kind of counterintuitive
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: to performance. To me, I just I could that never
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: sat with me. I came from the back country in
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: New Zealand. I did endure and experience kitchens of this kind.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: But to me, they were never great, they were never
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: doing meaningful work. And and so for me, how we
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: deal with that that pressure and is that we try
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to eliminate that kind of fear, you know, that that's
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: we don't have people running the kitchen who are ranting,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: yelling or abusing our teams. They are calm during service,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: and there's always catastrophes in kitchens. A chef's life is
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: in a state of fluid failure. You know, it's not
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: if things will go wrong, it's when and how often
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: and will anybody fucking notice? That's literally how it is, right,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: And so we're trying to fix everything as we fuck
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: everything up, and we're trying to hide it. Right, I've
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: been truthful here, you know. You know, it's percentages. Maybe
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: our idea of a fuck up is not the same
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: as the normal person's, but yet there it is. And
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: I think if you don't count those little percentages, then
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: then there is a tangible effects. You've got to be
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: really disciplined. But so we're hustling and trying to just
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: working so hard to just hold it all together kind
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: of every night. But if we if and this is
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: the same in any kind of high performing kitchen in
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: the world, now, if that same kitchen is run by fear,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: then what those cooks will do is they will hide
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: those mistakes. And we implore our people to bring the
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: mistakes to us immediately, and then calmly. As a team,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: we can figure out how to fix that quickly, because
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: whatever catastrophe there is in life, it requires calm and
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: persistent attention to fix. If you're losing your shit, if
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: you're losing control of yourself, you're just making things worse.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: And you just got to think straight and think about
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: this problem about how you're going to overcome it now.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: If it's a really big one and it requires some
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: level of this this one, then that can be done
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: post the mistake in a calm manner, not in the moment,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: but typically in kitchens it's been you've bucked up. Now
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I'm screaming and spinning in your face, and you feel
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: terrified and ashamed, and you've lost your dignity. So I
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: think it's really important for our people not to lose
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: their dignity within the mistakes that they will absolutely make
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: as I make them.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: That's such a such a high level understanding from a
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: sociological I don't mean sound like a bloody scientist, but psychological,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: emotional cultural like that awareness of it, apart from all
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: the food stuff and the cooking and the business stuff
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: and the keeping the you know, the customers or your
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: guests satisfied. On top of that understanding how to optimize
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: or try to optimize the dynamics and the energy in
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: that cauldron. That's some high level shit that you just articulated.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Most people don't even think like that.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That means a lot. I would just
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: say as simply as this, though, it comes from an
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: understanding that humans don't want to do a bad job.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: You have to have that kind of understanding as the leader.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Nobody's coming to the kitchen today to fuck up? No,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: why would they do that? Like, I really don't think
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I've ever met somebody even like the employees that haven't
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: worked out that truly in their heart came to do
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: a bad job today.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, So outside of outside of business for
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: a minute, how do you manage you? How do you
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: stay focused mentally, emotionally healthy, excited, curious? Like what it
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about you? How you kind
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: of optimize yourself or you don't think of it like that?
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: No, I do think of it. I sort of have
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: a philosophy that and this is just you know, some
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: people will walk at this and go that's ridiculous, But
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: this is just for me, you know, And I'm not
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: saying as I detail this, that this, this is what
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I think other people should do, But this just works
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: for me. I just I just try to apply one
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: really high standard to everything that I do. And I
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: don't differ that standard whether I'm working or whether I'm
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: at home. So if I'm parenting, I'm sort of trying
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: to do it at the same level that I would
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: run Attica. If I'm skateboarding, you know, I'm not a
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: very good skateboarder, but like, I'm trying to do it
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to the best of my ability, you know, if I'm
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I love, you know, making things, I'm making stuff up,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: you know, crafting stuff for I just try to do
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: it at a high level. I just find it easier
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: to do it this way. Then I don't have to
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: sort of lower or raise my standard for things. Am
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: I always meeting it? Of course? Not like am I
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: beating myself up when I don't like no, no, I'm not, no,
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: But but I'm trying. And you know, I'm not a
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: good example of somebody that kind of makes time for themselves.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I will pack everything and that I can, and sometimes
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: too much, and then, you know, like anybody'll occasionally complain
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: to myself about it, but but realistically, like it's on me,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: you know, I have wonderful friends. I think that that's
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: so crucial to surround yourself with with people who really
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: genuinely care about you for you, and like back to
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: this earlier conversation around not for what you do or
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: or how famous you are, but for you and people
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: that see that see that value in you. I think
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: it's so crucial. And those friends you know, have helped
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: me through the best at times and the worst times.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, yeah, you need that. You need that
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: sounding board sometimes, and I call it, I use this
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: term called an unreasonable friend, and it's someone that loves you,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: cares about you, but will tell you sometimes what you
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: need to here, not necessarily what you want to hear.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Best guy a friend, right, you know where it's likely
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: I'd sell people. I don't need a fan club. I
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: don't need you to tell me I'm amazing when I'm
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: being a dickhead. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help me,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: and it's not true, you know. And I think that
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: ability to be able to be okay with getting things
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: right and not right and not beating yourself up. And
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I think also because thinking when you're talking about how
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: much you work, like I work a lot, TIF works
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: a lot. You know, I'm full time work, full time study,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: seven podcasts a week, one hundred and twenty speaking gigs
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: a year, consulting, lots of shit, right, But all the
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: stuff that I do is somewhere between I enjoy it
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: and I fucking love it, Like I don't do anything
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I hate.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: So, in the corporate speaking, coaching, mentoring workshop space, you know,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: they're for one hundred years, not really, probably fifty years,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: they've been talking about work life balance, And for me,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: it's a redundant concept because it kind of suggests that
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: there's a like almost a number, like a balance that
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: we get this much work, Ben and this much not work,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: and then when we get the scales right, and it's
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: like it's a numerical thing, and I'm like no, because
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: you might do twenty hours a week, which is not
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: many hours, but you fucking hate every hour and that
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: is really bad for you mentally, emotionally, physically, versus you
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: do eighty hours, which again I'm not suggesting neither's Ben,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: but you might do eighty hours a week periodically of shit.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: That just fucking excites you, stimulates you, grows you, gives
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: you joy, pleasure, Like right now, I'm you're I'm not
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: pissing in your pocket. I love you, You're awesome. I
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: could hang out with you. This is my job, Like
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to you. This is ridiculous, this is fun
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: for me. This is for me. But this is one
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: of the components of my work. And you know, when
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: you do shit that I know, people go when you
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: do what you love, you never work a day in
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: your life, and that's kind of cliche and not always
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: possible all the time. But yeah, like for me, the
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: stuff that I do, and I think probably the stuff
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that you do, despite the periodic stress and anxiety, for
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the most part, it's a positive like it's it's a
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: net result, you know.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And sometimes even when it's negative, it's kind of positive,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: you know, Like, and I couldn't agree more with what
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: you're saying. And I'm not a matter I hope nobody
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: listening thinks for him, he has to work so much. No,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I'm choosing that, you know, just like you know, I
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: chose to turn up for this interview on time, you know,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: But but I really think, like you know, for me,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: it's kind of trying to I don't differentiate really between
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: I don't really do work and I don't really do home.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: I just kind of do life. And maybe that sounds
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: a little cliche, but I really don't like the strong
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: demarcation between work and the rest of life. Certainly don't
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: like the idea of having to work for the rest
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: of life. Like I just think that the work part
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: is just too big a part of life for it
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: not to be enjoyable, at least on some level. You know,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: maybe it's not possible for every person in the world
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: to find as much joy in their work as you
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: clearly do, and I clearly do it, even though I
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: would really hope that for people, you know, But I
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: would say that trying to find fun and stuff and
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: joy in it is just central to happiness. And I'll
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: give you a Philly example from yesterday. We found this
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: enormous cactus on Facebook marketplace. It's like three point eight
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: meters tall, it's got multiple heads, it's hundred kilos. I
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: spent six hours dragging it from this guy's backyard to
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: get it on as Bunning's higher. You right, it's absolutely insane.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Like I am prepared to do things that are ridiculous.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: If that's not clear yet.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: You know, you know there's people who can do shit
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: like that, right, you know you don't want to personally
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: do that yourself, you dickhead.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: I'm actually going to say, I don't know if there
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: is in this case, because nobody would be stupid enough
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: to move this flip and plant, and they couldn't sell it.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: It was quite cheap. It's beautiful cactus. Anyway. The story
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: is a battle in a battle, in a battle to
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: get it to our house. I get it off the
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: you our fantastic chefs, and they have to you know,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: they come up to help me, which thank god, we
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: thought we were going to die as we stood it up.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: I get it in the ground, I stake it. It
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: looks amazing. All the neighbors are very happy. And then
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: the wind come on Monday, and I didn't know how
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: long it would take the route, and I had a state
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: for a month old that's probably going to be okay.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: I removed the state. The wind blows the thing over. Now,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: that same day, i'd been to the doctor who told
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: me that I tore a tendon in my knee moving
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: that fucking cactus. So you can imagine how that made
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: me feel, right like, kind of very depressed. And I've
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: been told I can't bend over and lift stuff at
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: the moment for a bit. The knee's going to be
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: fine anyway. In a fantastic name this long story, but
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to quickly wind it up. Fantastic neighbor rang
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: me and said, I've got six builders renovating in the
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: front of our house. I'd like to send them over
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: to help you pick up your cactus. And so the
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: builders came over. And I've been around. I grew up
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: on building sites. My father and my uncle builders, and
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: there were such nice people, and we had such a
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: good time, and we were just making jokes about eating cactus,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and it was such a joyful thing. The six of
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: us working out how to pick up flip and cactus
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: and put it back in the ground. Took us about
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: thirty minutes. We all shook hands, they all joked about
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: how now I owed them a meal at Attica, And
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: it was the highlight of my day picking up a
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: silly cactus, you know, joyful, trying to find that. I
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: just try to find the joy and everything, you know,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, mate, I could talk to you. For a long time.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: I haven't even spoke to you about art or bikes
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: or music or all the other things that you're good
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: at and into. But maybe we can, Maybe we can
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: reconvene it a later date. Do you want to point
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: do you want to point anyone towards anything?
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Did I forget that you're writing a book? Have you
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: just written a book?
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I have written a book. Yes, tell me about the book.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Tells about.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: The book's called Uses for Obsession, And it's out on
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: the first of October in Australia and the UK. It's
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: a book about the search for the meaning and everything.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a memoir meets manifesto. It's searing, hopefully,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: it's hilarious. It tells a bunch of brutally honest stories.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm really excit about it. I've spent
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: the last two years writing it. Writing is one of
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: my greatest pleasures. Yeah, it's it's out soon. It's got
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: three recipes for bolonnes in it, and I invite the
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: reader to join my bolonnaise cult and to progress through
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: the cult. They've got to make these three recipes, starting
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: with really basic kind of beginner bolonnaise, then kind of
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: a mid range one, then like expert level. So that's
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: my sales. That's my sales, pitch.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: I love a good cult. Just tell me the name
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: of the book again, uses for obsession. I love it.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Such a clever name and two uses for obsession? Is it?
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: So it's out on October one in all good and
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: shit bookstores? Is it going to be on audio as well?
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And I rated the audiobook myself about six weeks ago.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Was a hell of an experience.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: How many days did that take you?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Six six hour days and about six hours of prep
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: on either side?
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: And so what is the end product? How many hours
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: is the audio book?
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's about eight and a half. I haven't
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: actually heard the whole thing yet. It is a fascinating,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: fascinating experience. Yeah, I don't believe how many how many?
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: How I mispronounced so many words you would never imagine,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: like you've been called out by the producer every thirty seconds.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Say that again, that's hilarious. The book's called uses for obsession. Mate.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: It's been really nice to chat to you and get
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: to know you a little bit, and I would love
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: it if you would come back we'll say goodbye Fair
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: but for the moment, Ben, thanks for being on the show.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Greg, and to really appreciate you guys.