Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, Women Can Be Friends and Not Frenemies (Ft. White Lotus, Gossip Girl, and The Women)

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Yes, Women Can Be Friends and Not Frenemies (Ft. White Lotus, Gossip Girl, and The Women) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
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us to hush, dim our historical light But darlings,
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we're the Harpies sharp and keen Unveiling the
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truth behind the silver screen History Harpies
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hear us roar Through the ages we explore Fashion,
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film, and TV's lore Hi everyone! Welcome to History
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Harpies. This is episode three. And I'm Lauren.
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And I'm Christine. Christine, how has your week
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been going? That is a great but a really difficult
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question, Lauren, because as I think you know,
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I've been really, really sick. I've been really
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sick. And I obviously won't describe that to
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our listeners. But the good thing is that I came
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home from a wonderful trip to New York City,
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and I was really happy to do that, so that was
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a great way to start my week. I'm so glad you
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had such a great time in New York. And I just
1:06
saw a picture of Christine with some of her childhood
1:10
friends, which actually relates to what we're
1:12
going to be talking about in the pod in a little
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bit. It does. And I know that was amazing for
1:18
you to see people that you grew up with, but
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probably haven't seen in some time. I haven't.
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And actually, I saw another childhood friend
1:24
during that trip who, unfortunately, could not
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make it to seeing our other friends. But it is
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really wonderful to have friends, people who
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have been in my life since seventh. Great which
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i have to say was a while ago lauren. Seventh
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grade was a while ago. Yeah. Just seems like
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just yesterday for me. Yeah. Seventh grade. Wow.
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And of course, middle school is just something
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we all like to look back on. Right. It's all
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I think about is my time in middle school and
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how fondly I remember it and how great I felt
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about myself. Oh, God. So glad I never have to
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think about that again. So how was your week,
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Lauren? Well, my week has been going well. It's
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been a busy week as classes are slowing down,
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but I have two kids going to the prom and so
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we have been all about the prom preparations,
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the beautification, the dates, the corsages,
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the dresses, the after -party dresses, the...
2:29
multiple things that go into going to a prom.
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And one thing that is different in 2025 as for
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compared to when you and I went to the prom is
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now you go to multiple events, some which are
2:44
chaperoned by multiple adults, before, during
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and after the prom. These are things that would
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not have been attractive to me. as an 18 year
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old or a 16 year old or any high school age.
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But apparently now this is what we do just like
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we take our kids to college, and then visit them
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every weekend, and Facebook with the other parents
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taking their kids to college. Now we go to the
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prom with them. I have no interest in ever going
3:18
to a prom again. Although I will say I did have
3:20
a good time at both of my proms. But the idea
3:23
that there are now regulations, legal riders
3:28
to go to prom, you have to sign off. And as I
3:31
told you, Lauren, the idea that That this generation,
3:36
unlike our generation, they're just never going
3:38
to have any fun at prom and after prom. Or ever.
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Or ever. Or ever. I hate to say it. All the fun
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has been taken out of prom. I mean, what is prom
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if you can't go and get totally wasted and then
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just go to a field or somebody's basement or
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I don't know, the back of a car somewhere. And
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where I grew up in New England, you went to someone's
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camp, someone's cabin out in the woods. Oh, interesting.
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And ideally we're not murdered by a serial killer
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when you weren't there. Well, now you go to a
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party where you're likely to see your own parents.
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So um, but can I add the detail because I think
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it's a really important one Can I add the detail
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that you married your prom date? I did and so
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prom really was a very very special moment for
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Lauren because she and her prom date have now
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been married for a 25 Which is remarkable and
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wonderful married my prom date who wasn't He
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actually went to several proms before he went
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to my prom. He actually went to the prom with
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my best friend, to the junior prom with my best
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friend, who wasn't dating him at the time. And
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this is probably more than our listeners need
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to know. But prom does hold a very special place
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in my heart because it is a special moment for
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my partner and I. And we have our prom songs
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and sometimes we still even play them and dance
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to them. That's so... Yes, as it should be. You
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know, I'm just going to add one more prom note
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before we move on to the theme of this week.
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And that is, and I had completely forgotten this
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detail until right now, I actually went to both
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my junior and senior proms with one of my friends
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that I saw this past weekend in New York City.
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Really? I had completely forgotten that. tying
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it all together. This all ties together. This
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all ties together. And again, I went to the prom
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with several different people, some random, some
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not so random, and some people that I was madly
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in love with, as is the case with my... husband
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husband. But at least I hope we're still talking.
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Yeah, right. But but there are several ways one
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can experience prom. And let me just say again,
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it should never be a way where your own parents
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are there. I shudder to think. Anyway, so moving
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on to friends and friendships and frenemies.
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The theme this week is thinking about friends
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and bitches and bitches on TV. and bitches in
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film and other iterations. Now, to be clear,
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Christina and I are going to have several episodes
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where we move into several subgenres of the bitches
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on screen or elsewhere motif. It's an evergreen
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topic. And one of the things that I think Lauren
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and I are both interested in is that as with
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the theme of our pod generally, we might think
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that things like bitch friends or frenemies is
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a recent invention. And certainly one of the
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things that is fun to explore is the idea that
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it isn't. That is, we might think, Lauren, that
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changes in feminism over the decades, that changes
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in women's work, in women's relationships, ideas
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of, say, like self -care, emotional labor, all
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of this language that we hear a lot now, we might
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think that those changes in women's status change
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their friendships. And I'm not really sure if
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we can think about it in that super direct way
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that maybe we always see these complications
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with women's friendships, no matter what. Yes.
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Women's friendships are one of the most complicated
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relationships that I can think of. You and I,
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of course, have a perfect friendship with no
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complications. Lauren sounds sarcastic, but in
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fact, Lauren and I have very few conflicts. We
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do. We do have very, very few conflicts. However,
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over the years, I'm sure you and I have had enough
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bitch drama with other women to fill, I don't
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even know how many pages of books of most women.
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How many podcast episodes? How many people in
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their lives have frenemies and people and drama
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and all of that? So we decided to explore three
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different texts this week. And even though the
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White Lotus season three ended a couple of weeks
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ago, it's still something that people are talking
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about. There's lots of memes. particularly Parker
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Posey memes. I actually just got a tennis one
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the other day, which was actually kind of funny.
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But there are all kinds of memes still going
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around, particularly about the three women, the
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fancies, the blondies, I don't know, they have
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different names that people are calling them,
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who were depicted in season three of The White
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Lotus. And we thought that might be a fun way
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to start to talk about them and then to connect
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them with Some other texts that have these kinds
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of frenemies these long -term friends and then
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friends also friends in fancy places Oh, yeah,
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because we have we have we have three texts with
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friends in fancy places in the case of the white
9:13
lotus They're of course at this resort and posh
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resort in Thailand in the case of gossip girl
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They're all over the Upper East Side and other
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Fancy places in New York and elsewhere doing
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amazing amazing things and in the women we have
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Fancy women on the Upper East Side as well and
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then other doing other fabulous things spas resorts
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Yeah, seems to be a kind of central theme spa
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is a central theme spa is central to all of this
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so So let's start thinking about these women,
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talking about these women, from The White Lotus.
9:53
There are three of them. One is the Michelle
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Monahan character, Jacqueline, who is an actress
10:01
of some sort in Hollywood. We have the Carrie
10:05
Coon character, Laurie, who is a lawyer. Lawyer
10:09
in New York City. New York City. And a single
10:11
parent. And a single parent with a marriage that
10:15
didn't end so well. And then we have Kate. Kate.
10:19
From Texas. Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas. Which
10:22
is a strange choice in some ways. Although a
10:24
strange choice given her political leanings and
10:28
characterization. Dallas would have made a lot
10:30
more sense than Austin. A lot, yeah. Sorry Mike,
10:33
I hate to say it, but I hate to say that Mike
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White has made any errors at all. Right, right.
10:38
So anyway, those three women go to the White
10:41
Lotus with the idea of reconnecting, having a
10:45
girls weekend. They've known each other since
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they were in middle school. Childhood friends?
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Who knows? The age of Christine knew her friends.
10:53
at least if not earlier and and Jacqueline has
10:57
paid for the trip an important detail yes Jacqueline
11:00
has paid for the trip although the other two
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are women of means who easily could have contributed
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their portions I think that's fair to say about
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Kate. I think I'm not so certain perhaps about
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Laurie. Well, maybe she could have stayed in
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a smaller room. Yes. And they are in this, like,
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completely, like, ridiculous... A fantastic villa.
11:22
...villa. But she could have stayed... Laurie
11:24
could have a studio. Laurie could have, like,
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a regular hotel room. Yes. Okay. I agree. I agree.
11:29
But then that would have been weird for the other
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two to have the villa and Laurie to have the...
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But Laurie is staying slightly separately from
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the other two in the villa. in the complex. And
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so it's very clear, we see almost immediately
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when we're introduced to these three friends,
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that there's this sort of two against one sense.
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And in the very first episode, it's clearly set
11:50
up that it's Laurie, the one who is on the out
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and that the other two are perhaps more successful
11:56
than she is, more confident than she is, maybe
11:58
prettier than she is. And so that is what we
12:01
are led to expect in the first season, but obviously
12:03
that doesn't hold the whole time throughout the
12:05
season. Right. Yeah, because anytime someone
12:09
leaves the room, is sometimes the case with three,
12:12
three is the worst number in terms of friendships,
12:16
there's always some backstabbing and nasty comments
12:20
about the person who has left. And so we see
12:23
different triangulations of this friendship when
12:27
we find out that Kate is... perhaps a Trump voter
12:31
and then the other two are joining together.
12:35
And then we also see moments where Jacqueline
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leaves and Jacqueline is allegedly stuck up and
12:42
fixated on her looks and willing to cheat on
12:45
her husband and part of the Hollywood scene.
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So there are there are all kinds of allegiances
12:53
that are both brought together, but also falling
12:58
apart. depending on the actions of the person
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who is absent or the person's or the person's
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actions, whether it's Jacqueline sleeping with
13:09
the Valentin or again, Kate's political leanings
13:17
or anything like that. So that these relationships
13:19
are really, really volatile at any point. And
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one of the things that's interesting about that
13:24
volatility is that it both is, to some extent,
13:28
dependent upon what happens at the resort, right?
13:30
Like Jacqueline actually sleeping with Valentin
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while she has been pushing Laurie towards him.
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But there's also, of course, this sensibility
13:37
that we can't really understand, that it's, of
13:40
course, based upon things that have happened
13:41
in their previous lives, right? They're in that
13:43
sort of two to one. dynamic that you're talking
13:46
about, there's always a reference to these sort
13:49
of mysterious things that happened in the past,
13:51
right, that we don't necessarily know about.
13:53
Like, for example, the suggestion that Jacqueline
13:55
came on to Kate's husband, right, at Laurie's
13:59
wedding, which is probably the most serious thing
14:00
that comes up when they talk. But one of the
14:03
things that is, I think, missing to me in that
14:07
dynamic, in all of those sort of callbacks to
14:09
the past, is a real positive sense of sort of
14:13
what they had in common in the first place, what
14:15
really held together the friendship both when
14:18
they were younger and throughout these decades.
14:20
We obviously see sort of the cattiness, the bitchiness,
14:24
the different alliances, all of that, but I think
14:26
it's one thing we... Absolutely absent is what
14:31
was the commonality right what with the sympathies
14:35
what did they talk about when they were sixteen
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what did they talk about when they were thirty.
14:39
We also we also it's there is the possibility
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and i think it's a good possibility that jacklyn
14:46
who may be lost as an aging actress and needing
14:51
some real people in her life has invited these
14:54
two friends on it. paid vacation to Thailand
14:59
because we don't get the sense that these women
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are say texting every day or in each other's
15:06
lives on a very regular basis because there are
15:09
details that are revealed when they're together
15:12
that are new yes this is not an annual trip that
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they take together no and. Often felt watching
15:20
this that it was Jacqueline saying hey, we haven't
15:23
seen each other in so long and I'm sick of being
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surrounded by celebrities And why don't I take
15:30
my two oldest girlfriends who maybe now I know
15:33
nothing about and at one point We were wonderful
15:37
friends, right? Well, and I think an additional
15:41
Component to that that is interesting to think
15:43
about is and and thinking about thinking thinking
15:46
about thinking about women's friendships generally.
15:49
Is it the case if what you are talking about
15:52
is accurate? Are we supposed to think then that
15:55
Jacqueline wants to put herself in a situation
15:58
where she is the queen bee that is an aging actress
16:01
in hollywood richie surrounded by younger women
16:04
more beautiful women she is this younger husband
16:06
is very clearly sort of jealous of. So is it
16:09
the idea that she assumes that she will have
16:12
a kind of position of dominance with these other
16:14
two friends and that that is a really really
16:17
nasty underbelly of this friendship of the three
16:21
of them that. they are not necessarily jockeying
16:26
for that dominance, but that Jaclyn assumes she
16:28
will have it, because she is the most beautiful,
16:31
she is the wealthiest, the most famous. And because
16:32
she's paying for the vacation. And because she's
16:34
paying for it. And so it is interesting to think,
16:37
is there like a different version of Jaclyn right
16:39
back in LA that is more fragile, more vulnerable,
16:43
and that in a sense, the friendship is a prop
16:45
for her, a prop for her ego. And obviously, there's
16:48
senses of that in the show itself, right? That
16:50
Kate and Laurie hint at exactly that. I think
16:54
that's a good point. And I think that that's
16:59
something that White is trying to get at. On
17:01
the other hand, I also think it's really... Really
17:06
astute of him to position them in all these different
17:09
settings where we see the incredible privilege
17:11
of all of them despite whatever kinds of conflicts
17:16
there are in their own relationships they still
17:19
see themselves as only deserving of say the white
17:23
lotus they don't want to go to that other resort
17:25
right but of course then age is playing a role
17:27
too right right right they're so insulted that
17:30
valentine thinks that they should go to an. Older,
17:34
senior. Right. They also don't want to be around
17:37
regular people. Exactly. When they go into the...
17:39
The greater mosh. Right. They're completely soaked
17:44
among this ceremony, and they definitely don't
17:48
want to be around local people in Thailand either.
17:53
So there's the larger element of their own privilege
17:56
and their own world that they embody. and then
17:59
the conflicts that they see when they're with
18:02
one another that are in a lot of ways removed
18:06
from The circumstances of their vacation at the
18:10
white lotus although of course then we do see
18:12
lori going to the fight right so they do go to
18:15
the club where of course the club also has a
18:17
lot of expats right when they when they got a
18:20
kind of tourist voyeurism i'm you know kind of
18:23
she's she's kind of. But then you have to say
18:28
where's the line between i'm trying to participate
18:31
in this culture and tourists. voyeurism right
18:34
and but at the very it gives her an opportunity
18:37
to establish herself as an individual right where
18:40
she's not one of the friends where she's not
18:42
in this kind of little threesome but she's also
18:44
trying to get even yes so she's she's going not
18:48
only to see the fight but potentially to pick
18:51
up one of the other men to have it experience
18:54
like the one Jacqueline had, because she is hurt
18:57
and offended by what Jacqueline did with Valentine.
19:00
Not because she has any strong feelings for Valentine,
19:03
but just because Jacqueline had slept with him
19:06
because she could, and again, after trying to
19:10
set Valentine and Laurie up. Okay, so here's
19:13
an important question. Okay. Actually, I have
19:15
two important questions. One is, so does Jacqueline
19:19
ever actually want Laurie to sleep with Valentine?
19:24
And what would your reaction have been if you
19:30
were Laurie, if you were Laurie and you found
19:33
out that Jacqueline had slept with Valentine?
19:35
Because, of course, Kate thinks that Laurie is
19:37
not going to be disturbed by this at all. That
19:39
it will be yet another story in the story of
19:41
Jacqueline hooking up with men. Right. What would
19:44
I have thought? Well, if I was truly not interested
19:49
in Valentin at all or thought of him as just
19:53
maybe somebody I have a fling with on vacation,
19:55
but I wasn't interested, I probably would not
20:00
react as strongly as Laurie did to Jacqueline
20:02
hooking up with him. just probably would go like
20:07
Lord did to fight the next night and find a Valentine
20:12
proxy because Valentine and his friends are fairly
20:16
interchangeable and again it wasn't like she
20:21
was that interested in him to begin with and
20:24
she had to be pushed and prodded and then eventually
20:28
she was sort of interested but it It wasn't,
20:32
she didn't have her eyes set on Valentin the
20:33
whole time. But see, but I think I disagree with
20:37
that a little tiny bit, only in the sense that,
20:39
right, the feeling I get from her character is
20:43
that she is used to being the plain one. I'm
20:46
doing air quotes here, by the way. She's used
20:48
to being the plain one. She's used to being the
20:50
not pursued one. She's used to being the not
20:52
desired one. And so in a sense, her holding back.
20:56
in that threesome with her friends. That sounded
21:00
funny when I said it. But her holding back is
21:04
out of protection, that she knows that Jacqueline
21:07
and then Kate, they're going to be the ones who
21:09
get the attention. And so not coming out forcefully
21:11
and saying, yes, I want Valentin, that this is
21:14
self protection. And that's yet another reason
21:16
why she's so hurt. But I guess I sort of disagree
21:19
with that because as you said in... Earlier we
21:22
just don't know enough to really come to some
21:27
of these conclusions Because also she's the only
21:30
one that's single So even though Kate and Jacqueline
21:34
may be pursued more often and again, we just
21:36
don't know What's happened in the past? They're
21:40
also two people who have said here's my our single
21:43
friend They've offered her up that way. So it
21:46
could be because she's used to being Offered
21:50
up because she's been single. I don't know. Again,
21:54
it's the kind of thing where we don't know what
21:56
the dynamics are. And Lori is certainly more
22:00
uninhibited than Kate, who's very buttoned up
22:03
and very stiff. And we've seen scenes of them
22:07
dancing and scenes of them in the pool. And Lori
22:10
is definitely ready to go in ways that Kate is
22:14
not. And Jacqueline just wants all the attention.
22:19
And again, your idea about props is important
22:25
because then the question is, well, if one prop
22:28
is removed, Kate, who's ready to go to bed, put
22:31
her pajamas on, then Laurie becomes the threat.
22:36
And that's something to think about. But it's
22:38
also something to wonder about. in their earlier
22:41
relationships whether these have been women who
22:44
have been stealing each other's boyfriend and
22:46
getting in the way of romantic entanglements
22:49
for a longer time as maybe with kate's husband
22:53
kate's husband but we're just we just don't know
22:55
we don't know well i think one thing we absolutely
22:58
have to bring up about that friendship before
22:59
we move on is that that really marvelous exchange
23:03
at the end before they leave yes and. where we
23:07
have this on the part of Jacqueline and Kate,
23:10
right? This sense of happiness and joy. And we're
23:13
so grateful for this time together. And then
23:14
obviously Lori has that fantastic monologue about
23:17
how, in fact, she has just been sad. It has made
23:20
her feel so depressed. She really senses how
23:23
much she is missing from her life, what has gone
23:25
wrong. But nevertheless, at the end, with this
23:28
real sense of affirmation, she wants her friend
23:31
Jacqueline to be beautiful. She's glad that Kate
23:34
has such a happy, content life. I read something
23:36
online, I don't remember where, that said they
23:40
thought that that was a completely unrealistic
23:42
exchange. And I actually found it to be incredibly
23:46
realistic. Absolutely true to life for that long
23:50
of a friendship. A decades long friendship with
23:52
all of these complications. And women of that
23:55
age who aren't shown in long term friendships
24:00
in this way as much. to have this sort of memory,
24:05
self -reflection, compared experiences and to
24:09
be talking about them that way. Because it is
24:13
a hard thing, of course, to be single. We don't
24:18
know what her relationship is with her daughter.
24:20
Sounds like it's not too good with her ex -husband
24:23
and she's questioning whether she's put too much
24:26
time into her work so Maybe she's confused on
24:31
all of these different fronts and she is with
24:34
friends who at least on the surface Projected
24:36
they have it all mm -hmm and whether that's true
24:39
or not again obviously Jacqueline is cheating
24:41
on her husband and so and that marriage is something
24:43
that marriage is not perfect yes, but we don't
24:46
really know a lot about Kate and Lori is the
24:50
most honest and at least admitting her her insecurities
24:56
and her vulnerability at that stage of life,
24:58
which I think a lot of women can relate to. And
25:02
I do think it is realistic and very brave of
25:06
her to say in front of those friends. I agree
25:11
about the absolutely about the bravery. And I
25:14
also think that one of the things that comes
25:16
out in that conversation certainly is important
25:18
to us as historians and and to all of us who
25:21
have long -term friends the idea that it really
25:24
is that that time right sacralizes these friendships
25:28
and one of the things i think that is so interesting
25:32
to me about that a couple of years ago there's
25:34
a one i should have looked it up there was a
25:36
wonderful article about friendship uh that one
25:39
of my friends from grad school sent me remember
25:41
yes we should have looked it up yes and i sent
25:44
it to another friend And one of the things i
25:47
said to her at the time is obviously you have
25:50
to keep a balance between honoring all of this
25:54
time you spent with this person right right right
25:57
but at the same time you have to say but i want
26:00
to be with the person be friends with the person
26:02
that you are right now right right and i really
26:05
honoring that yes but just as lori says. it means
26:09
something to be friends with people for that
26:12
long, right? Where it's not this kind of pro
26:13
forma, oh, I'll just kind of, you know, see you
26:15
when I'm in town or whatever. Even if you do
26:17
just see them when you're in town. But where
26:19
you always are kind of telling yourself, there
26:21
is a meaning to this relationship that makes
26:24
me want to renew it, right, every time. As opposed
26:27
to just that it's this desiccated thing that
26:29
I'm kind of... still keeping up with for no clear
26:32
reason. I understand. Right. And I think that
26:34
that that is what that that article that that
26:38
conversation that I had with my friend, that
26:40
is what came up to me also in exactly what Laurie
26:43
says. Right. That time has sacral. We were fighting.
26:47
I might hate you. I might be jealous of you.
26:50
But that time that we have had together really
26:52
sacralizes this. It's something special. It is
26:54
something. It is something special. It is something
26:56
special. It's funny that we started out with
26:59
these women as bitches, and at least in this
27:04
part of our pod, ends in with them very sweetly,
27:09
even though they are bitches to some extent,
27:12
to each other, and those things exist altogether.
27:18
I mean, I don't want to say they're compatible,
27:20
right? But in a sense, they are compatible. They
27:23
are compatible. So maybe that's a good moment
27:26
to move on to the women. Oh, I'm sorry. No, we're
27:29
talking about, I'm sorry. We're talking about
27:31
Gossip Girl. You know what? That just shows you
27:36
how unhappy I am with Blair and Serena right
27:37
now. I'm almost done the final season. Well,
27:42
that might be a season too many. So, Gossip Girl,
27:48
for those of you listeners who don't remember
27:52
it or haven't seen it, came out in the early
27:57
aughts. Early aughts. Around 2004, I believe.
28:01
Again, most of you have probably heard of Blake
28:03
Lively, but this was her launching point, and
28:07
it was put out by the same... uh, the same writer,
28:13
creator that did the OC, um, another good one.
28:17
And there's a lot of hybrid exchange and, and,
28:21
and, and similar, if not identical DNA, DNA between
28:26
Gossip Girl and the OC. But we thought we would
28:28
talk about Gossip Girl because it, it does connect
28:32
to our themes of female friendship. bitching,
28:36
and also these kind of longer term relationships
28:40
that transcend different moments. Also different
28:45
generations in Gossip Girl. And there are many
28:49
seasons of Gossip Girl. I don't even know how
28:51
many. But the first couple are worth taking a
28:55
look. Absolutely. And if you are into New York
29:00
fashion, you know, drama, Sacks. Spiky heels.
29:06
All of it. Mini skirts. It's for you. If you're
29:09
into seeing 17 year olds legally drink at bars
29:13
all over New York City where no one ever cards
29:16
them. No one ever cards them. And people who
29:18
magically have full -time jobs, even though I
29:21
don't even know if they've graduated from college
29:23
or not. And people who go to college and maybe
29:25
have never gone to one class. Although we are
29:28
familiar with that. We are familiar with that
29:31
diamond. From the other direction. Yes, we are.
29:34
So there is Gossip Girl, voiced by Kristen Bell,
29:40
who is this omniscient, online, what do you call
29:45
her? purveyor of hot gossip, hot takes about
29:50
these only for some reason these like seven people.
29:55
New York has nine million people living in it.
29:58
And posts about these seven high schoolers who
30:03
go to Constance slash St. Jude elite private
30:10
school. and post their whereabouts, and who's
30:13
sleeping with who, and who's doing what drugs,
30:16
and who's wherever. But the key to this show
30:22
are female friendships, or frenemies. Or frenemy.
30:26
And I do think frenemies is a good word to use
30:29
here. Because when the show begins, the very
30:32
first episode of the first season, Blair is the
30:37
queen bee of this girl school, Constance, and
30:40
her formerly best friend, Serena Vanderwoodson,
30:45
has just returned from a mysterious time away
30:48
in boarding school, and it is very much established
30:51
immediately that they are now enemies, having
30:55
been best friends beforehand. although why it's
30:59
initially unclear. And so we actually start the
31:03
show in a really negative space in terms of female
31:06
friendships. They have had a falling out because
31:08
the other component, of course, is that in the
31:11
absence of Serena, Blair has nothing but minions,
31:15
which I actually find one of the more disturbing
31:17
components of the show. So girls who sit on the
31:20
mat always have to sit on a lower level of the
31:24
steps, have to do whatever she says. This mysteriously
31:27
lasts into her twenties that she still has young
31:31
women serving as minions for her. Unpaid minions.
31:35
Unpaid minions. Who, by the way, are really wealthy
31:38
on their own, and there's no reason why they
31:41
have to follow this person around. Completely
31:43
unclear. Completely unclear. And so we then see
31:47
over the course of multiple seasons that the
31:49
friendship between Serena and Blair, it warms
31:53
back up, it cools back down, they have plots
31:57
against each other, they support each other.
31:59
They both get into Yale, they both don't get
32:02
into Yale. They both date. Uh, what? Two of the
32:06
same men. They've lost different times. They
32:09
both date Nate and they both date Dan. Let's
32:13
not talk about that anymore because that whole
32:15
Dan Blair thing was traumatizing. But their friendship
32:19
is what holds the show together. at least they
32:23
see it that way. And their friendship is very,
32:27
very important to one another, even when they're
32:30
frenemies and even when they're not speaking.
32:33
And their friendship is something that, even
32:36
though it's very, very problematic, when they're
32:39
not friends, the show goes into very odd spaces.
32:45
Well, it's definitely narratively necessary.
32:48
that they have these conflicts, that they don't
32:52
have these conflicts. And I do think there's
32:54
almost though a kind of whiplash feel to the
32:57
show in that they're either in this sort of sisterhood
33:02
moment where they're family and they're so dependent
33:05
upon each other and they're best friends, or
33:07
they are. backstabbing each other, right? We
33:10
don't have a lot of middle ground where it's
33:12
kind of like, well, I'm just sort of mad at you
33:14
because X. The underpinning of all of this is
33:18
that both of them have grown up in incredibly
33:20
dysfunctional families with very, very difficult
33:24
mothers and largely absent fathers, largely absent
33:27
fathers and They both have had to rely on one
33:32
another as confidence, for support, for unconditional
33:36
love, because they have not received that from
33:39
their own families. I agree with that, but of
33:42
course what we don't see from them is unconditional
33:45
love. In fact, the love between them is actually
33:47
quite conditional. In terms of saying, well,
33:51
I want to get ahead. I want to go to Yale. For
33:54
example, the whole Yale thing. So Serena applies
33:56
to Yale. She gets into Yale. I mean, who knows
33:59
why? And this is something that, of course, creates
34:02
this huge drama. And it's seen as a betrayal.
34:06
It is. But when Serena is on a bender, which
34:11
is many times, the unconditional love from Blair
34:15
and others. is we're not we're a group. We're
34:19
not going to tell anybody. We're not going to
34:21
rat you out. We're going to let you sleep wherever
34:24
and you can dry out with us and you can tell
34:26
us what happened. And if you by accident murdered
34:30
someone, you can tell us that that happened with
34:33
that OD guy. Yes, the guy. So the unconditional
34:37
love isn't you can succeed and I'll support you.
34:41
The unconditional love is you can do a lot of.
34:44
really, really shitty things and I'm not going
34:47
to tell anybody. Until I'm mad at you a year
34:50
later and then I'll tell Gossip Girl. Correct.
34:52
Correct. I mean, I think what I've been thinking
34:55
of a lot is the entire show has such a dark and
35:00
pessimistic and depressing view of female friendships.
35:04
So there basically are none in the show. There
35:07
are... So tabling for a moment Blair and Serena,
35:11
because it's so complicated. They are backstabbing
35:13
each other all the time. So we have the character
35:16
for a while of Jenny Humphrey, who has no friends.
35:21
No female friends. She has Eric, but then she
35:23
backstabs him. She has minions briefly, but of
35:27
course minions are not friends. So okay, Serena
35:31
has briefly Poppy for a friend, who is also kind
35:35
of backstabbed and goes away. Georgina Sparks,
35:39
who's a wonderful character. Wonderful character,
35:40
but so evil. But so evil. And again, Michelle
35:44
Trachtenberg, what a wonderful actress. Very
35:46
sorry about her passing away so young. The character
35:50
was wonderful, but is a friend also who is a
35:54
backstabber in evil, so she's not a real friend.
35:56
A friend to no one. Friend to no one. So then
35:59
we have these kind of random female characters
36:01
like Ivy, Vanessa, again, all backstabbing. Nobody
36:05
has a close friend that can be relied upon. And
36:09
Lily has no friends. Lily has no friends. And
36:11
Lily obviously does not get along with her sister,
36:14
does not get along with her mother, does not
36:16
really, she's not really friends with Eleanor.
36:19
I mean, the two of them are. And we're even,
36:22
we're given this moment, right, when Lily is
36:24
under house arrest for her crime. We won't mention
36:27
about that. And where Nate Archibald's mother
36:30
says to her, in effect, we women are just paying
36:32
you back because you were such a bitch to us
36:34
before, and now we're glad to see you fall. And
36:37
so going through all of the female characters
36:40
in the. Even Dorode of the Maid has no female
36:42
friends. Nope. So. To me, I think it's really
36:44
fascinating that a creative team, that was what,
36:47
one man and one woman. Right. That Josh Schwartz
36:50
and Stephanie - Stephanie is last name, I'm blanking,
36:53
we should have looked that up too. That there
36:55
is not a single kind of ride or die - No. Female
37:00
friendship in the entire - No. And not just that,
37:03
but you don't even have people who are like -
37:04
casual friends. Well, I would say maybe some
37:07
of the threesomes with Chuck, the women are friends
37:09
with each other. Perhaps. They may be friends.
37:12
All the hookers and all of Chuck's random women.
37:16
There needs to be the Chuck and Nora crossover.
37:20
Chuck may hook up with two women who are low
37:24
-key friends. That is an excellent point. But
37:26
other than that, other than one of Chuck's many
37:29
threesomes, there and I think that is so interesting
37:32
because you can argue that even the the men have
37:35
more friendships and obviously we're not talking
37:37
today about male friendships but it's so interesting
37:40
to me that Serena and Blair are held up as being
37:43
again this like you're my family right right
37:45
because the landscape the backdrop is so miserable
37:49
and even when Blair and Serena are in fights
37:51
they literally have no other female no no friends
37:56
none Zero. And so how is this even possible?
38:00
Again, what sort of picture of female friendship
38:02
are we getting? That again, boys are driving
38:04
them apart. It's not a good one, but maybe it's
38:07
more about constants. elite boarding schools
38:13
and the culture that that creates. And maybe
38:16
it's trying to say something about that, because
38:18
I'm now thinking where, yeah, so on the OC, of
38:22
course, we have Marissa and Summer who are besties
38:27
and who are mostly uncomplicated besties. Mostly
38:31
uncomplicated besties, but of course, also in
38:34
their case, there's a sort of mystery. And I
38:37
think you and I have talked about this before,
38:39
where Marissa Cooper is supposed to be the most
38:41
popular girl in school, and she has no friends
38:44
other than Summer. True. True. And it's when
38:47
Marissa dies, RIP, that Summer has no other female
38:52
friends. Sort of Taylor. Except for Taylor, who
38:54
is a grudging, we probably shouldn't talk about
38:56
Taylor, because it's such an upset thing. It's
38:58
going to trigger you. It is. It is. So I think
39:01
that that's, you know, it is interesting to think,
39:04
what is it about their wealth, as you say, the
39:07
dysfunctional sort of high -status families that
39:10
they are raised in, they're going again to these
39:13
super, super high -pressure schools that are
39:15
obviously supposed to be like Dalton and Spence,
39:17
right, in the Upper East Side, that they're used
39:20
to getting everything they want, right? And so
39:23
does that have any impact on their friendship?
39:26
That is, for example, if someone like Blair doesn't
39:30
get into Yale, Is it simply because she's so
39:32
used to being privileged otherwise that she will
39:35
even turn away from a supposed best friend the
39:38
moment she doesn't get anything she wants? If
39:40
Blair and Serena are farm girls in Nebraska,
39:44
basically, are they more likely to have a solid
39:46
friendship? I think Josh Schwartz would say yes.
39:50
Yes. That all of these material... Issues concern
39:55
status and the one thing that i never understood
39:58
about gossip girl this comes out in the end in
40:01
the actually in the netflix trailer for it. Is
40:05
that right going to an ivy is the most important
40:08
thing for these kids right when in fact like
40:12
who fucking care right they have. Tons of money,
40:16
as we see with Chuck, he's running an empire.
40:20
When he's 19. Blair is running Waldorf Designs,
40:23
even when she's supposedly in college. So it
40:26
really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. In
40:29
the scheme of things. And Chuck says to Serena
40:31
at one point, you and I aren't made for college.
40:34
We're not made for college. We're above it. Yes.
40:36
But again, Blair has her heart set on Yale. Why
40:40
we actually really don't know. And again why
40:44
she wouldn't just expect to work not work at
40:48
all or work for waldorf designs or just go wherever
40:51
she goes and party and befriend some other rich
40:55
girls and. Go upon and clubbing yeah and just
40:59
be in it girl being in it girl is what matters
41:02
to her and that seems to go against the whole
41:06
yale thing which is going away from the friendship
41:09
thing i understand but it's but it's important
41:11
because you're if you are in it girl you need
41:14
a lot of friends that that would seem to be a
41:16
requirement to be on page six regularly. But
41:19
it comes back to one of the same dynamics as
41:21
White Lotus, though. The idea that fundamentally,
41:25
right, even in these even in or especially in
41:27
these very privileged environments, jealousy
41:30
is a natural component in female friendships.
41:35
And obviously there's lots of ways in which this
41:36
works itself out, right? In less prestigious
41:39
or less privileged environments, right? I mean,
41:41
again, parents who are going on Facebook pages
41:43
to say, my kid's applying to Harvard or whatever.
41:46
Not that I have that experience, but, you know,
41:48
maybe never will. But anyway, so I think that
41:50
that is something else that is, you know, this
41:53
kind of lurking dynamic that is not ideal, right?
41:57
In depictions of female friendships, the idea
42:00
of that it becomes in a sense, a zero -sum game.
42:03
There are only so many men out there. There are
42:05
only so many Yale acceptances out there. There
42:07
are only so many kind of, you know, starring
42:10
roles. So many couture dresses, right? So many
42:14
chairmanships of a board, right? A charity board.
42:18
And that women are in competition for them. And
42:21
I'm not saying this isn't reflecting reality,
42:24
right? I'm not denying that. But it absolutely
42:26
is the case right that certainly what we talked
42:28
about so far that we have exactly this theme
42:32
right that the competition is unavoidable and
42:34
that the jealousy is unavoidable and i think
42:36
what my big complaint is about gossip girl as
42:39
much as i'm enjoying watching it my big complaint
42:42
is that i assume we're not going to have that
42:46
moment in gossip girl like we do in the white
42:48
lotus right where the white lotus at least i
42:51
write and as we just talked about you feel very
42:53
much. At the end, with that monologue, the jealousy,
42:58
the competition, it simply is part of a bigger,
43:02
more magnificent package. Of course, I have zero,
43:06
zero faith that Gossip Girl is going to end in
43:10
a way that says, you know what, this can just
43:12
be part of a big complex, beautiful whole of
43:16
female friendship. Well, and part of it too is
43:19
that because Gossip Girl, and we've only of course
43:21
talked about the female friendship is so much
43:24
about romantic relationships and ultimately the
43:28
goal of finding your man and you know locking
43:33
that down and competing for the same men and
43:36
more exclusive men and that's just a huge through
43:41
line in that show and in a way obviously it isn't
43:45
with the women that we see in the White Lotus.
43:47
So there's that, and it seems like Gossip Girl
43:51
goes in that direction, explores that more carefully
43:55
than it does the female friendships. And again,
44:00
it's interesting that Gossip Girl coming out
44:04
at around or after Sex and the City, same kind
44:11
of coverage. that it doesn't do the deep dive
44:20
into what really makes women connect with one
44:24
another in a way that Sex and the City does.
44:28
And also what makes women despise each other.
44:32
Other than just hair pulling and you didn't come
44:36
to my sleepover or you wore my mom's dress and
44:40
I wanted to wear my mom's dress or you dated
44:44
that guy and I those sorts of things. Well, and
44:47
of course we because we don't see in the case
44:49
certainly of Blair and Serena It's not like we
44:51
see any they're not sitting around to diner table,
44:53
right? Having a conversation and the way that
44:55
is obviously built into sex in the city, right?
44:57
Right and of course built into white lotus, right?
45:00
Everyone's sitting in a table That never happened.
45:03
No, it's a lot of walk -and -talk walk and talk
45:06
a lot of stomping in and out in the six -inch
45:08
spike And a lot of problems and a lot of problems
45:11
a lot of problems But you know what? I asked
45:14
you this might be maybe the last thing we should
45:15
talk talk about before we move on to the women.
45:18
So I asked you that question about the white
45:21
lotus and how you would respond if you were Lori.
45:23
Okay. So my question about the gossip girl is...
45:25
Where would I go if I had Lily's credit card?
45:29
No, no. And the question is not why is Lily always,
45:33
again, wearing statement necklaces even if she's
45:34
home under house arrest. The question is, so...
45:37
You are Blair. You are dating Dan, who used to
45:43
date your best friend Serena. I know this is
45:46
a hard mental space to get into because it's
45:47
so unpleasant. But the question is... Well, also
45:50
because it's conjuring images of Penn Bagley
45:52
in you. Which are very different than him in
45:57
Gossip Girl. Agreed, agreed. But, so you find
46:00
out as Blair, not to say she's done this yet
46:02
in the show, but you find out that your best
46:04
friend Serena... Had sex with your boyfriend
46:08
Dan in the back room of like a party Filmed it
46:12
on her phone on purpose to basically destroy
46:14
your life. So do you still consider her to be
46:16
your best friend? I do not I do not I Draw the
46:20
line there that that's what seemed to be a very
46:23
natural line that a lot of people would draw
46:26
Yeah, if you knowingly go have sex with my boyfriend
46:29
and you're my best friend and you film it to
46:31
make me feel bad then but Also did that with
46:35
Nate Without the filming part. Without the filming
46:38
part. But at least in that case, she was drunk.
46:42
She was drunk. She wasn't drunk when she did
46:44
it the second time? No, no, because it's all
46:45
a plot. But I thought she was still drunk. No,
46:48
no, no. Are they always drunk? Well, they are
46:50
always kind of drunk. But in the dancing, she
46:52
is doing it on purpose. It is a scheme. I understand.
46:55
No, I understand it's a scheme. I mean, the first
46:57
one happened more spontaneously. Well, I think
46:59
she did maybe like a couple of shots, but it
47:01
doesn't matter because she still is planning
47:03
on doing that. To her best. friend. Right. Sleeping
47:07
with one's best friend's boyfriend is usually
47:11
a game changer. If you do it once, it's an accident.
47:16
If you do it twice, shame on me. Shame on you.
47:21
Okay. Maybe that's where we should leave Gossip
47:24
Girl. On that note. So speaking of women who
47:28
sleep with each other's husbands. That's a nice
47:32
segue. So if I make that statement, you might
47:35
think I'm referring to a TV show or movie that's
47:40
on Netflix right now. But in fact, I am referring
47:43
to the 1939 film, The Women, in which women do
47:48
sleep with each other's husbands. And have a
47:50
lot of sassy comebacks. Mm. A lot of dialogue
47:54
in that one. A lot of dialogue. So the women,
47:57
for those of you who have not seen it, and just
47:59
to emphasize, as Lauren just mentioned, we are
48:01
not talking about the terrible remake of this
48:04
film. The Meg Ryan. The Meg Ryan. Meg Ryan seems
48:06
to come up on our podcast a lot. That's so funny.
48:09
And neither of us ever talk about her ever. I
48:11
know. It's so funny. This is the only time she
48:13
ever comes up. So the women is very well known
48:17
for a couple of reasons. And one of those is
48:20
it has an all female cast. There is literally
48:26
not a single male anywhere in the film. No waiters,
48:31
even the dog is female. And this was done - There
48:35
are more women than even a yellow jacket. Not
48:39
a single male insight, the entire film. And so
48:45
it stars Norma Shearer, who was an absolutely
48:48
huge star throughout the 1930s, a Best Actress
48:53
Oscar winner for a film I might mention a little
48:56
bit later in our conversation. It featured Joan
48:59
Crawford, who was just becoming a big star. She
49:01
had been in some silent films in the 20s, but
49:04
was about to just absolutely skyrocket. And a
49:07
bunch of other actresses who had become well
49:08
known, like Joan Fontaine. And it is also set
49:12
in the Gossip Girl neighborhood, literally, of
49:16
the Upper East Side in Manhattan among wealthy
49:19
women who spend their time getting their nails
49:20
done, going to spas, going shopping, seeing models
49:25
model clothes, and who also have houses in the
49:28
country, right? Houses in the country. Really,
49:32
basically, it is about a woman, Mary Haynes,
49:34
who finds out accidentally that her husband is
49:37
having an affair with slutty shop girl, Crystal
49:42
Allen. Now, when you say she finds out accidentally,
49:45
she does not find that she finds out accidentally,
49:48
but on purpose. Yes, thank you for adding that
49:51
because her friends are such bitches that they.
49:55
continue to do the telephone game where they
49:59
tell each other that Mary's husband is having
50:02
an affair. They tell the manicurist that Mary's
50:05
husband is having an affair. The manicurists
50:07
all tell all of their shared clients that Mary's
50:10
husband is unfaithful, and it is bound to come
50:13
back to Mary. And her friends very much want
50:16
it to come back to Mary. And they send Mary,
50:18
the super, super bitch, Sylvia, sends Mary to
50:22
this particular manicurist that she knows will
50:25
tell Mary her husband is having an affair. And
50:27
granted, Sylvia doesn't do this because she is
50:30
troubled by Mary's husband's affair. No, no.
50:32
She just wants the drama. She just wants the
50:33
delight of seeing Mary's anguish. Yes. From learning
50:37
about this infidelity. Because this couple has
50:40
been taken to be this kind of golden couple.
50:42
Again, obviously we never encounter Mary's husband
50:45
because there are no men in the film. And also
50:47
other women's husbands have been unfaithful.
50:49
Yes. So many of these women are thinking, well,
50:54
think she has it perfect and actually she's just
50:57
like the rest of us. She's just like the rest
50:59
of us. And so we have then the big dilemma of
51:02
the film is initially is what does Mary do about
51:05
this information that her husband has had an
51:09
affair and there are lots of different options
51:11
right that she tries. One of the things she attempts
51:14
to do is to actually confront Crystal Allen,
51:19
the fantastic Joan Crawford. Although she doesn't
51:22
encounter Crystal on purpose, it's accidentally
51:25
at a fashion show and closed shop. and which
51:30
is a really delicious exchange, I just have to
51:32
say. It is, it is. But ultimately, she sees herself
51:38
and maybe doesn't have a choice because her husband
51:40
prefers to be with Crystal. which is a really
51:44
remarkable outcome that we don't expect. Because
51:47
we don't think that married men leave their wives.
51:50
And because Norma Shearer, again, is fantastic
51:53
and is really depicted as being sort of a good
51:56
sport, right? And entertaining and loving, right?
51:59
This isn't this sort of shrew. We're not talking
52:01
about a dead veteran. And they have a daughter.
52:03
They have a daughter. So they're a seemingly
52:06
happy family, at least from what we see of it,
52:10
without the man. and that it would seem like
52:13
he might have a fling, but that he wouldn't actually
52:16
leave his delightful wife, his delightful daughter,
52:20
for bitch Joan Crawford. But of course, one of
52:26
the main points of some of these friends slash
52:29
frenemies around her is that Mary herself has
52:33
forced the issue. And this is actually the position
52:35
of Mary's own mother, right? Mary's own mother
52:37
basically says, well, your dad cheated on me,
52:39
and I looked the other way, and this is the plight
52:41
of all women. We just keep our mouths shut when
52:44
we know that our husbands are unfaithful, and
52:46
that's how marriages power through. But of course,
52:48
the other important dynamic is that you do have
52:50
a friend like Sylvia, who is trying to, in the
52:53
guise of empowerment, saying, you have to leave
52:57
him. Right. You have to get a divorce. You have
53:00
to make him give her up. You cannot put up with
53:02
this. And in part, again, it's under the guise
53:05
of empowerment that Mary has to stand up for
53:07
herself. But also, we are led to think, because
53:10
Sylvia, again, wants the drama, wants Mary's
53:13
perfect life to be dismantled. And so you do
53:16
then also have the other women who are just like,
53:17
well, it'd be fun if we had a divorcee hanging
53:20
around. Sure. Sure. But those are the choices
53:23
that are really presented to us, right? That
53:26
Mary either forces the issue and ends up alone
53:30
while her friends are clapping for her, or she
53:33
just looks the other way and does nothing and
53:35
just lets the affair peter out. Right, right,
53:38
right. So Mary... Upon learning that her husband
53:43
is choosing to leave her has to go to Reno to
53:47
get a divorce and on the way to Reno She meets
53:51
a cast of characters who are also all getting
53:55
divorces and they go to this ranch and are all,
53:59
I guess, waiting for their divorce appointments.
54:02
And while they are there, Mary encounters a young
54:07
chorus girl named Miriam who, it turns out, is
54:11
having an affair with Sylvia's husband. And so
54:15
this complicates matters. further. Then we see
54:19
Sylvia come. Sylvia discovers Miriam is having
54:22
an affair with her husband. The two of them get
54:24
into this total cat fight. They rip each other's
54:27
clothes off. It's absolutely bonkers. But we
54:33
start to see these women also forming a bond
54:36
on this ranch as a whole bunch of women about
54:41
to have a nervous breakdown, not really knowing
54:43
what to do, but on the other hand, finding some
54:46
solace in their sort of common plight, right?
54:50
And one of the things that's interesting about
54:51
that, and this goes back to what we were talking
54:53
about before, is the idea that in this kind of
54:56
hothouse environment of the Upper East Side,
54:59
right, in the Connecticut country houses, that
55:01
that kind of solidarity is not possible. I mean,
55:04
the Joan Fontaine character is supposed to be
55:05
this young, sweet, winsome newlywed. She has
55:09
a kind of bond with Mary and is more sweet. But
55:11
the idea that in the Upper East Side, they can't
55:14
form that bond. It's when they're all on a ranch
55:17
in Nevada waiting for their divorces that everyone
55:19
is kind of stripped down to the bone. They're
55:21
wearing their simple clothes. And then they can
55:24
find that sort of solidarity. Just like the Nebraska
55:27
question I asked you earlier. Right. That's interesting.
55:31
It's interesting removing that. from the Manhattan
55:34
world and seeing what happens when they're milking
55:36
the cows around the ranch and just doing a ranching
55:42
chores. And there are also other characters that
55:44
live out there that host them that are so far
55:48
from the world of Manhattan. The Mockettle character.
55:51
But of course what's also been interesting about
55:53
that, and I think that this is something we don't
55:56
see so much in our other programs, although obviously
56:00
as a dynamic in The White Lotus, is that social
56:02
and economic class. It's so important in the
56:05
women. So Crystal Allen is, she's at a perfume
56:09
counter. She works in a department store. This
56:10
is how she meets Mary Haines' husband in the
56:13
first place. And she's a schemer, right? She
56:16
wants to go after one of these wealthy men who's
56:18
shopping for his wife. And then we obviously
56:20
have the chorus girl. We have these women, the
56:24
manicurists, right? Exercise leaders. Exercise
56:28
leaders. So this whole sort of like underclass
56:31
of women who are serving the wealthy Upper East
56:34
Side women. But the dynamic is super clear that
56:37
that is the class that these women's husbands
56:40
are choosing their mistress from. Yes. Right.
56:43
And certainly what we are told about Stephen
56:46
Haynes having an affair with Crystal Allen is
56:48
that it really doesn't take much more than her
56:51
flirting with him at the perfume counter. Right.
56:55
that's pretty much it. And he ends up marrying
56:58
her. But we also learn later that she is conniving
57:03
and that she understands how to manipulate men.
57:06
Because after they've been married for, I don't
57:08
know, however long, whatever, a year, she already
57:11
has another guy that she's onto. Right. So she
57:17
is somebody who knows how to work the system,
57:20
who knows how to manipulate men and who's gotten
57:23
pretty good at it. So much so, again, that Stephen
57:26
agrees to marry her. For reasons, again, that
57:30
we don't fully understand. At least not in the
57:34
context of what we see because we don't ever
57:35
see him. Because we don't ever see him. And certainly
57:38
there is this idea, yes, so however much Mary
57:41
is sort of quote unquote pushing him towards
57:44
her by in effect saying pick her or me, it's
57:48
never clear why he would pick Crystal Allen over
57:51
Mary. Correct. Correct. Especially when we see
57:53
how awful and wretched Crystal Allen is towards
57:57
the daughter. Awful. Awful. Well, that bathtub
58:00
scene is amazing. It is amazing. It's an amazing
58:02
scene. She's in the bath. She's on the phone
58:05
with her lover. This little girl comes in to
58:07
try to talk to her. She's so awful to her. She's
58:12
saying, you know, you're invading my privacy
58:14
and you're going to rat me out to your dad. And
58:17
she's just awful. awful to her. And it's another
58:19
instance where you have evidence that Mary is
58:21
the saint, right? Because one of the things that
58:23
little Mary says is, my mother says that I have
58:26
to be nice to you. Right. So we're even supposed
58:28
to think that even at this moment, where Crystal
58:30
Allen is now Mrs. Stephen Haynes, that Mary is
58:34
taking this high road, right? Sort of elevating
58:36
herself over these sort of petty sort of anger
58:39
or jealousy or all of this other stuff. And yet,
58:42
after all this has happened, Mary still holds
58:45
out hope by the very end that she can get her
58:48
marriage together. Because Crystal has been the
58:50
problem all along. And that even though her husband
58:54
was attracted to her, slept with her, married
58:57
her. Married her. Mary still feels like it's
59:02
worth it. It's worth being married to him again.
59:04
It's worth reuniting the family. And that...
59:08
you know, bygones be bygones. Bygones be bygones.
59:11
And we have again, this idea that there are in
59:14
this friend group that she is in, that you do
59:18
have someone like Sylvia, who even at this moment
59:21
where Mary might reconcile with her husband,
59:23
that Sylvia tries to stop her. Yes. Right. And
59:27
this whole sort of balance where, again, Sylvia
59:29
says, if you have pride, you will not go back
59:32
to the man who cheated on you. And of course,
59:34
you have this wonderful last line, right? This
59:36
is something a woman in love, you know. you can't
59:38
afford. And of course, we're all kind of like,
59:40
well, Mary, you're a sap. But also say, oh, but
59:43
what a happy ending. She's a sap, but what a
59:45
happy ending. But still this idea that someone
59:48
like Sylvia wants to ruin this woman's relationship.
59:53
That she'd rather see, again, Mary single forever
59:55
than. And that's an interesting parallel to the
59:59
White Lotus because this brings us back to the
1:00:02
idea about Jacqueline and her friends as props
1:00:05
and women who need other women's misfortunes
1:00:09
to elevate themselves. Absolutely and and those
1:00:13
dynamics and we see them in Gossip Girl as well
1:00:15
with with various characters One thing I just
1:00:18
did want to add really quickly because I think
1:00:20
it's it's interesting because in some ways the
1:00:22
women it seems really bold Yeah, and that obviously
1:00:25
it's talking about adultery Crystal Allen has
1:00:27
this super super sassy line where Mary says something
1:00:31
like what you're wearing right now It looks so
1:00:33
cheap, you know I advise you not to buy it because
1:00:35
Stephen doesn't like clothes like that and Crystal
1:00:37
comes back with the immortal when Stephen doesn't
1:00:39
like something I'm wearing I just take it off
1:00:42
which again, you know put on a needle pillow,
1:00:44
but so we have then This idea that um Wait, what
1:00:51
was I going to say? I don't know. Oh, I know
1:00:55
so we have this idea that is sort of bold, right?
1:00:57
It's talking about sex. It's talking about adultery
1:01:00
Crystal again super slutty, but but it is also
1:01:03
this affirmation of marriage, right? I'm sure
1:01:05
and little thing I wanted to mention. So in 1930,
1:01:11
Norma Shearer wins the Best Actress Oscar for
1:01:13
this film, The Divorcee, which is this sort of
1:01:16
pre -code, you know, anything goes kind of movie.
1:01:19
And the whole point of The Divorcee is she finds
1:01:22
out when she's been married for only three years
1:01:24
that her husband has cheated on her. And in response,
1:01:27
she cheats on him. She sleeps with his best friend.
1:01:30
And it is super obvious, right, that the film
1:01:32
does not shy away from this. And then they get
1:01:35
a divorce, things happen, et cetera, et cetera.
1:01:37
And in some ways, you have an ending very similar
1:01:39
to the women in that it's a reaffirmation of
1:01:42
marriage. But in so many ways, the women is kind
1:01:47
of this answer back to the divorcee to say, well,
1:01:51
OK, women's sexuality in the divorcee, it's affirmed,
1:01:54
but then it's also not affirmed. Basically, the
1:01:57
Norm Shearer character ruins her life by committing
1:02:01
adultery. And her husband very much in that film
1:02:03
just says, like, well, Kate, get over it. We
1:02:05
all do it. Right. And obviously in the women,
1:02:08
where we don't have any kind of male perspective,
1:02:11
but we still have this almost more chastened,
1:02:13
like, this is what a good wife does. Right. Mary
1:02:16
doesn't go out and get another lover or boyfriend
1:02:19
or anything. Right. She simply sort of tucks
1:02:21
her tail between her legs and says, I don't want
1:02:24
to get a divorce, but this is just the only option
1:02:26
available to me until she is willing then to
1:02:29
go back to her husband at the end. Right. But
1:02:32
I would say that the perspective are the male
1:02:36
viewers of this film. And we might think of this
1:02:39
as a film for women, but I would argue that it
1:02:42
is a film for men It is a film for men to say
1:02:45
these women Can go through however much infidelity
1:02:49
these men inflict on them and in the at the end
1:02:52
of the day They are going to come back. They
1:02:55
are going to be waiting by the phone. They are
1:02:57
going to be waiting To hear that their husband
1:03:00
has left their mistress and that they can get
1:03:01
him back and that in the 1939 with the United
1:03:06
States still going through the depression with
1:03:09
marriages on the decline with divorce skyrocketing
1:03:13
that preserving the sanctity of marriage was
1:03:17
was really paramount and I think one of the this
1:03:19
film is one in a series of many that tries to
1:03:22
restore as unconventional as it is in many ways
1:03:26
it. comes back to traditional values in many
1:03:30
other ways. That's a good point. And we certainly
1:03:33
have a sense that Crystal Allen has lost. Has
1:03:36
lost. She has lost. Mary has won and she has
1:03:39
lost. Although, of course, then the big question
1:03:40
mark is what happens the next time Stephen Haynes
1:03:43
goes to buy perfume. And that is an excellent
1:03:46
question. And my guess is that there will be
1:03:49
maybe a younger, maybe even more sassy salesgirl
1:03:54
who will catch his eye. Perhaps. Let's hope not
1:03:56
for Mary Haynes' sake. OK. Well, I think it is
1:03:58
time for our... book recommendations for the
1:04:01
week, Lauren. Well, my book recommendation is
1:04:05
Susan Douglas's Where the Girls Are, Growing
1:04:08
Up Female with the Mass Media, which is all about
1:04:12
all kinds of cultural products, TV, film, music
1:04:17
that came out in the decades after World War
1:04:21
II and really the way that the media communicated
1:04:23
different ideas about feminism, about female
1:04:26
friendships, about resistance, about activism,
1:04:30
all kinds of things. Susan Douglas is a wonderful
1:04:33
scholar and I recommend it if you want to put
1:04:36
some of these texts in even more context. That
1:04:39
sounds great. I will read that book, Lauren.
1:04:42
My book recommendation for the week is actually
1:04:45
not a history book. It is Jane Austen's Pride
1:04:50
and Prejudice. And I'm not talking about the
1:04:52
many adaptations, right? Not talking about Karen
1:04:55
Knightley, not talking about any Colin Firth,
1:04:58
but the original novel by Jane Austen. And to
1:05:01
me, what's really interesting about it with female
1:05:03
friendship is very famously, we have this family
1:05:06
of five sisters where their own friendships within
1:05:08
the family are unusual. The two younger sisters
1:05:11
are very very close, the two older sisters are
1:05:14
very very close, but the fifth one is kind of
1:05:16
literally the fifth wheel. But there also is
1:05:19
one female friendship in the novel between Elizabeth
1:05:22
the main character and her friend Charlotte Lucas.
1:05:24
And in effect at one point Elizabeth just says
1:05:26
she's going to kind of drop her friend because
1:05:28
her friend has married the terrible Mr. Collins.
1:05:31
And it's a really interesting study I think of
1:05:34
a kind of independent woman in the early 19th
1:05:37
century who is intended to find her friendships
1:05:40
primarily at home. home, but also the book and
1:05:43
in her neighborhood. But the book also, I think,
1:05:46
admits really plainly that friendships within
1:05:48
a family don't always work. That friendships
1:05:51
with simply the people who are geographically
1:05:53
close to you, they're not necessarily going to
1:05:54
be the closest friendships that you can find.
1:05:57
And I think, however much people look at Pride
1:05:59
and Prejudice as a very romantic story, I think
1:06:02
in terms of friendship among women, I think it's
1:06:05
actually a much darker story. With that, I think
1:06:11
we'll turn to talking about our loving or harping.
1:06:15
Christine, are you going to love or harp this
1:06:17
week? You know what? I'm going to surprise you
1:06:20
in that I was going to harp. Okay. I was going
1:06:23
to harp about compliment insults. Okay. But you
1:06:26
know, because of our conversation that we've
1:06:28
been having over the past hour, I'm going to
1:06:30
love. Okay. And I'm going to say that I really
1:06:32
appreciate you as my friend. That's very sweet
1:06:36
and unexpected. That's my love. Oh, I love you.
1:06:41
I love you. I love you, too. Well, I am going
1:06:43
to harp. You can harp. I'm going to harp. It's
1:06:46
a different subject than we've been talking about,
1:06:48
but one that listeners, I just have to share
1:06:51
with the wider public. So I teach a class and
1:06:54
it meets in person, old fashioned in person.
1:06:57
You come to class twice a week. You listen to
1:07:00
me. gab about, whatever, history, whatever I'm
1:07:04
talking about, and you leave. And it is not online.
1:07:08
It is not Zoom. It is not Teams. It is not any
1:07:11
of those platforms. It is in. And I reiterate
1:07:15
this, you might think, why is she going on and
1:07:17
on about this? This is the reason. So I have
1:07:20
asked my students to please turn in their papers
1:07:23
in person. And they keep asking me where to submit
1:07:27
it on Blackboard, which is our online portal.
1:07:31
And they are very angry that they are not submitting
1:07:34
papers. online and they want to know why. They
1:07:38
want to know why in a class in person they wouldn't
1:07:41
be submitting papers online and why they would
1:07:44
have to go to the trouble of printing out a paper,
1:07:48
stapling it, walking to class, and handing it
1:07:52
in. for some reason, this was created a tremendous
1:07:56
amount of confusion. And I don't know why there's
1:08:00
nothing in the class or the bulletin or the syllabus
1:08:04
or this class also has been going on for 13 weeks.
1:08:07
I have no idea why now people think that this
1:08:10
class is an online class. And maybe it's because
1:08:13
they never come. But that might be if they have
1:08:16
never come to class and they don't know that
1:08:19
it is an in person class that is not on me. So
1:08:24
Parents, students, whoever is listening, please
1:08:27
make sure that you know the modality of your
1:08:29
class, and if it is an in -person class, and
1:08:32
someone asks you to print out a paper and hand
1:08:35
it in with a staple on it, please do so. I know
1:08:38
printing does seem to be difficult ancient technology,
1:08:41
but it is still incredibly important. And provided
1:08:44
free by the university. And provided free. And
1:08:47
provided free. You know what, I think that the
1:08:49
So the ultimate lesson here, Lauren, is that
1:08:53
students need to pay attention to your instructions
1:08:57
and students need to realize that you are not
1:09:02
their friend. You are their professor. That was
1:09:08
my attempt to tie everything together. I think
1:09:10
it was a little awkward, but I tried. I do try
1:09:13
to be their friend. Not friend like I hang out
1:09:16
with them and I go to bars with them, but friend
1:09:18
like a maybe older, wiser friend. I don't know.
1:09:22
I do try to be their friend. I do try to be their
1:09:24
advocate and I do what's best for them. So just
1:09:27
hand the fucking paper in. But they still need
1:09:29
to staple. Well, on that note, we are going to
1:09:34
sign off for this week, but we hope to see you
1:09:36
next week, and... Harbie's out!