Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / The Journey That Forged The Horse Boy | Mongolia, Shamanism & Healing with Tulga Otgonbaatar | Ep 43

Transcript

The Journey That Forged The Horse Boy | Mongolia, Shamanism & Healing with Tulga Otgonbaatar | Ep 43 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
• 0:01
  Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
• 0:03
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
• 0:06
  The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
• 0:13
  audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up,
• 0:19
  like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really, really helps us to make the pro.
• 0:24
  To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries,
• 0:29
  books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com.
• 0:34
  So now let's jump in.
• 0:36
  Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
• 0:38
  I couldn't be more excited because today I've got Tulga Otgonbaatar, who, those
• 0:45
  of you who know the Horse Boy story will remember that there was a very, very long
• 0:50
  suffering man called Tulga Otgonbaatar who came with his son Tomo, who actually
• 0:55
  organized the whole Horse Boy trip.
• 0:57
  Without toga, nothing would've happened.
• 1:00
  And then Tomo Toga's son was Rowan's first friend ever.
• 1:06
  And then Tomo and Toga came together on the journey up to the reindeer people.
• 1:11
  And we haven't seen each other in almost 20 years, but we've been, you know, we
• 1:20
  keep up with each other a little bit by email and social media and so on, but to
• 1:25
  have Tulga Otgonbaatar sitting in front of me looking frankly no older than he
• 1:30
  did almost 20 years ago is, is wonderful.
• 1:33
  And what we've just been chatting about before we hit record was that
• 1:39
  in a year and a half, it will be the 20 year anniversary of the Horse Boy.
• 1:44
  And I think we should do some sort of journey to Mongolia, some sort
• 1:47
  of pilgrimage really with Rowan, get Rowan and Tommo back together.
• 1:53
  So hold on for that.
• 1:54
  So, so Tulga Otgonbaatar, thanks so much for coming on.
• 1:57
  It's so good to see you.
• 1:58
  What I want to talk about on this episode is nature and the mind.
• 2:07
  So as you know, since we were with you in Mongolia, a whole movement started
• 2:16
  through horse Boy, where now we work with autistic and people with all kinds
• 2:22
  of neuropsychiatric conditions in about 40 countries including work with horses
• 2:28
  but not limited to work with horses.
• 2:31
  And we have these three methodologies, horse boy method, movement method,
• 2:36
  which is with no horses, and something called takin borrowed from your
• 2:42
  Mongolian word for the WildHorse.
• 2:44
  Honored one.
• 2:45
  Revered one, which is how you train the horse to do this work.
• 2:49
  And we do that as its own therapy for people with trauma, adults
• 2:53
  with autism, that sort of thing.
• 2:55
  So what happened, what we did out there in Mongolia almost 20 years ago
• 3:01
  has spread across the world into this work with nature and the mind in a way
• 3:09
  that I could not really have foreseen.
• 3:11
  When we were struggling up those mountains together to see the reindeer
• 3:16
  people and wondering if they would even be there and engaging in all those.
• 3:21
  Shamanic ceremonies, which clearly bore more fruit than we
• 3:26
  could have imagined at the time.
• 3:29
  So I think a lot of people who watch the Horse Boy and Read The Horse
• 3:34
  Boy know You, but they know you, of course, as you appear in that story,
• 3:40
  what they don't know is the toga that started nomadic trails and why you
• 3:50
  did that, and why you decided to work with Nature and the Mind and so on.
• 3:54
  So let me just turn over the first question to you.
• 3:58
  A thank you for coming on the show, and B, why did you decide to go into this
• 4:06
  line of work of bringing people out to experience the great Mongolian step?
• 4:16
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 4:16
  Rupert, so, so nice to see you again.
• 4:19
  And we were having a chat just before it started you recording it.
• 4:25
  So even though I'd like to really say hello and again, so nice to
• 4:29
  catch you up after so many years.
• 4:32
  It's almost 20 years, so I'm so excited that seeing things
• 4:37
  I have heard you wanted to.
• 4:40
  Have some this talk with me.
• 4:43
  So I was quite excited and been started thinking all over again.
• 4:50
  And since 2006 we have been started, you know, chatting and exchanging emails.
• 4:57
  Then it just, the old memories came back to me and I was really, really excited.
• 5:03
  So, yes, here we are.
• 5:05
  Alright, back to your question.
• 5:09
  How did it all started?
• 5:10
  This is something, you know, back in the 1990s I started learning English.
• 5:16
  'cause you know, Mongolia was a country where dominated by
• 5:21
  Russians in German Soviet period.
• 5:23
  Even we were independent country, so we had to learn Russian all the time.
• 5:30
  So in the late 1990s I was one of the one of the lads who could, who
• 5:37
  I could speak English in Mongolia.
• 5:40
  So only the company in Mongolia has chosen me to be a tool guide.
• 5:46
  So this is how it all started.
• 5:48
  So I it's like the job has found me.
• 5:53
  So I had, after so many years of.
• 5:58
  Of the tool guiding job.
• 6:00
  And I decided to run my own company in 2004.
• 6:06
  So then I had an opportunity to contact it with you.
• 6:12
  So then it all started, this is how it began.
• 6:16
  Rupert Isaacson: But what, what's interesting to me is that when people
• 6:19
  think about Mongolia, they, they obviously think about the step, they think about the
• 6:23
  nature and the nomadic people and so on.
• 6:26
  But of course, as you know, Oland, Batar, where you live, it's a big
• 6:29
  city and it's very much a city and you are some of somewhat of a city boy.
• 6:36
  Why did you decide to make your living not with the multinational companies,
• 6:44
  not with the oil and gas companies, because, you know, you could have done
• 6:48
  that or, you know, the legal side of big business with your language skills.
• 6:53
  You could have easily gone that corporate route and made a lot of
• 6:57
  money, probably you know, working with China and, and all of that.
• 7:01
  Why did you decide No, what I want to do is, is work with nature.
• 7:06
  I want to get out of the city and, and into the step and show people that,
• 7:12
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: yes.
• 7:13
  I remember when, when we met first time Inba city the capital of Mongolia.
• 7:19
  As soon as you landed, I took you in a vehicle and driving into the town and
• 7:26
  they said, wow, Lamber a city something.
• 7:30
  Not really nice, actually.
• 7:32
  So then I said, what you said why you chosen this place?
• 7:37
  And I said, I was born in, so I'm the city boy.
• 7:40
  That is my, the first very first answer.
• 7:44
  Yes.
• 7:44
  You know, working in, in this field and also taking the people
• 7:50
  out in the beautiful nature, I think it's action, isn't it?
• 7:55
  It's the passion sits in me and traveling within a beautiful landscape.
• 8:02
  It's just really enjoyable, you know, get get it out of, you know,
• 8:08
  leaving the city behind and you know, enjoying all the nature.
• 8:14
  And, and also it's not only the nature, it's the, the counter itself, you know,
• 8:20
  visiting nomads in the people living out in this, in the place out in the.
• 8:28
  It's another another different experience.
• 8:31
  I always enjoy traveling, you know, within a country and the countryside
• 8:36
  and still visiting families.
• 8:39
  And I wanted to show the world about, you know, how Ong Orleans we leave, still
• 8:46
  surviving actually in, in this modern world, rapidly changing the modern worlds.
• 8:53
  It's just, we keep our tradition as well.
• 8:57
  Of course.
• 8:57
  It's beautiful nature as well.
• 8:59
  And the same time, yes, the mining is so big in Mongolia.
• 9:04
  Besides that, you know, this, there were so many opportunities for sure,
• 9:08
  opportunities, but yes I wanted to show Mongolia to the world and the show, it
• 9:16
  show all the experience about Mongolia to all the people who comes to Mongolia.
• 9:23
  That was my the main, main thing, main goal is still
• 9:28
  been sitting so strong in me.
• 9:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I think that there's something which
• 9:36
  struck me early about the people in Mongolia was people were kind.
• 9:47
  This was the first, you know, we, we showed up with a very difficult boy.
• 9:52
  You know, Rowan was not easy.
• 9:54
  He was probably at his most difficult back then.
• 9:57
  And he obviously presented all kinds of challenges.
• 10:02
  Do you remember once he hit that lady over the head with a plastic bottle out
• 10:07
  of the, out of the blue in the place where we were at those sacred springs.
• 10:13
  And then he, you knows, through these tantrums everywhere.
• 10:16
  And I had been with Rowan in many places by then.
• 10:22
  I'd been with him in Russia.
• 10:23
  I'd been with him in other parts of the USA and Europe.
• 10:28
  What was interesting to me was always people's reactions to him.
• 10:34
  And even the lady who he hit over the head with the bottle she wasn't pleased about
• 10:39
  it, but people reacted to Rowan with a real sort of kindness and curiosity in
• 10:47
  Mongolia that was noticeable from day one.
• 10:53
  And it really didn't matter where we were.
• 10:56
  There was this sort of kindness and acceptance and everywhere that we
• 11:01
  showed up, whether it was in the towns or whether it was in nomadic
• 11:07
  camps, we'd be riding through these nomadic camps and people would come to.
• 11:12
  Or camping close by, people would come to find out who we
• 11:16
  were and what we were doing.
• 11:17
  And it wasn't just their reaction to Roman, it was their reaction to all of us.
• 11:23
  Why do you think there is this quality of kindness among the Mongolian people?
• 11:32
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: It just interesting when you said there were moments I started
• 11:37
  just thought of that lady, and you, you, you picked up that the exactly same thing.
• 11:45
  So, it seems you have the very same feelings as well, so Yes.
• 11:49
  I do remember that you know, magical moment.
• 11:53
  That was a nice evening.
• 11:55
  So we were nearby the holy the spring water area.
• 12:00
  There was all of a sudden know he picked up the, the bottle, the
• 12:04
  box, a bottle and started pouring through what all of a sudden he hit.
• 12:08
  And the lady wasn't really pleased.
• 12:10
  Yes, that I remember that.
• 12:12
  And I also, I had the feeling, you know, a little bit anxious feeling
• 12:16
  because of, you know, she might react and, maybe do something else.
• 12:21
  So I was a bit worried, but and, and you know, overall I thought, oh, okay.
• 12:27
  She, she will, you know, she will take it easy because this is a little boy.
• 12:32
  'cause in Mongolia we treat a little boys and kids, and that's way, and I
• 12:39
  think we are more patient when it comes to the, so we always say it's forgiven.
• 12:46
  Forgiven because it, I think it's in our culture, you know, to be
• 12:50
  more respectful to and nature, respectful to kids and elders.
• 12:56
  Yeah, elder people.
• 12:58
  So this is our culture in our genes.
• 13:01
  So it's been carried over a thousand of years.
• 13:05
  So I think it's one of the ways, you know, we, especially, you know, the foreignness
• 13:12
  when, when, when they come, when you come to Mongolia and we still, you know, would
• 13:16
  think, okay, he could make a mistake.
• 13:19
  She could make a mistake because this he or she is new in here, it's fine.
• 13:24
  And also it's, you know, and thousands of years that's experience
• 13:30
  of, you know, forgiveness.
• 13:31
  We always had it, that it's, that helps a lot.
• 13:36
  Then I think it's most foreigners in Mongolia, they, they really.
• 13:41
  You know, en enjoy that experiences.
• 13:45
  I think it seems, you know, the first among goal is we look in quiet, you
• 13:52
  know, poker face or you know, we don't we don't see show our emotions immediately.
• 14:00
  Then, you know, people start talking and smiling.
• 14:04
  Maybe just a little bit of ice breaking afterwards.
• 14:07
  Then we start having, you know, that big laugh and start, you
• 14:12
  know, even we cannot talk.
• 14:14
  So we show using the hands language
• 14:18
  Rupert Isaacson: and
• 14:19
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: so on.
• 14:19
  I think it's should be related to our nature as well.
• 14:24
  'cause our, the weather in here is so harsh, so we have to be patient.
• 14:31
  You know, in the wintertime it just very cold, so it just already minus 20 Celsius
• 14:38
  in degrees at night in Mongolia already.
• 14:41
  So, but in summertime it's quite opposite.
• 14:46
  So pleasant.
• 14:47
  So it can be quite hot.
• 14:49
  So I would say the weather makes the Mongolians be patient
• 14:56
  and it helps a lot, I think.
• 14:59
  Yes.
• 14:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:01
  Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's interesting too, because.
• 15:04
  From the European perspective of Mongolia, we remember the history, you know, and
• 15:09
  one of the first things that one sees when Mon goes to Mongolia, outside Ula,
• 15:14
  there's this huge statue of Genghis Kahan.
• 15:16
  And oh, he's the national hero, of course, you know, to people in Europe.
• 15:21
  He's like, he's the guy that killed everybody.
• 15:23
  And not just him, but Kla Khan and Tamerlan and all these guys.
• 15:27
  And what's so interesting is that the, he, you, you talk about the, a
• 15:33
  heritage of kindness and forgiveness over thousands of years, but of course
• 15:37
  there was a long period of Mongolian's history where Mongolia was perhaps the
• 15:43
  most aggressive, almost psychopathic country on the planet in terms of
• 15:49
  the reach that it had, you know, from the Pacific to the Mediterranean.
• 15:54
  Every couple of generations we kill everybody and then sort of get a bit
• 15:58
  tired and then go back to Mongolia, and then two generous days later,
• 16:02
  you know, oh, kill everybody.
• 16:04
  And then it stopped.
• 16:08
  Why did it stop?
• 16:09
  What, what, what changed the Mongo culture from this sort of ultra aggressive,
• 16:15
  almost parasitic, you know, relationship with the world to this sort of current,
• 16:24
  as you say, kindness, patience.
• 16:30
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, this is a very big question to
• 16:34
  answer that is not any easy.
• 16:38
  I try and to answer it.
• 16:40
  So basically, you know, living out in the step of Mongolia you think peaceful
• 16:49
  quiets, but a lot going, I think in somehow during the trip, during the
• 16:57
  tour, I think we had a little bit of, at this conversation already,
• 17:02
  but back in 20 years, and so, yes.
• 17:04
  Did he, you know, in the, in Mongolia Chin can he is like, the grand, grand father.
• 17:14
  He's like king of kings.
• 17:17
  So it's like, for us, it's just like, unofficial religion.
• 17:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 17:24
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: And official a god.
• 17:26
  So if someone talks bad about him, the Mongo go go really angry and sort of bad.
• 17:35
  So it's like, I would say this is more like religion to us.
• 17:39
  So he's the national hero.
• 17:42
  So yes, when you leave the country.
• 17:45
  In Europe and somewhere, somewhere in the western world and
• 17:48
  somewhere the part of the world.
• 17:52
  So it was known as, you know, the big one of the big the war
• 17:57
  machines and murderer killer.
• 17:59
  And, you know, in that way, yes, I agree with that because of all
• 18:04
  the history was written, those countries who were defeated by moguls.
• 18:13
  So this is how they describe moguls, you know, well, any war
• 18:21
  never been, never, never been.
• 18:24
  You know, like, so, so I think Mongols did their part that's in
• 18:31
  the big history in the, in the past.
• 18:34
  So that's 800 years ago they did, I would say they did their part.
• 18:40
  So we still have their genes in blood for sure.
• 18:43
  Yes.
• 18:44
  But you know, after that, so many things changed.
• 18:47
  It's, you know, Mongolians converted into Bud Buddhist country
• 18:53
  in the, in the 16th century.
• 18:57
  Mm.
• 18:57
  We changed the shamanic world to Buddhist and you know, we were under the
• 19:03
  maturing, one of the nomadic clients.
• 19:06
  When between the China and Mongolia, but few hundred years.
• 19:11
  So we just kind of, we just unique history.
• 19:16
  We were up and down a lot.
• 19:18
  So now we are trying to come back after the, you know, the Soviet era
• 19:24
  trying to be our own independent.
• 19:28
  So just, we're doing good job on this.
• 19:30
  So I think now we are all, you know, the fighting spirits has been gone really.
• 19:38
  And I mean, not all and all, but I think mostly the fighting spirits are gone.
• 19:45
  Things have changed.
• 19:46
  So much have changed.
• 19:47
  Now we started, you know, to call all these, the 13th century Mongols.
• 19:53
  It's like they did their job.
• 19:55
  Now it's modern day.
• 19:57
  With, we have changed a lot.
• 20:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, though, there was this, because this
• 20:04
  is a really good point, you said in the 17th century, the Buddhist, the Buddhist
• 20:09
  religion came to Mongolia, but it was such a radically different concept to,
• 20:19
  as you say, the warlike spirit that had been there before and such a sort of
• 20:26
  sudden change and such a, a lasting.
• 20:31
  And permanent change almost from night today, from the most war-like
• 20:37
  people on the planet to one of the most peaceful peoples on the
• 20:41
  planet within maybe two generations.
• 20:45
  This is quite extraordinary in history.
• 20:49
  Why do you think this happened in Mongolia?
• 20:52
  Why did they go so suddenly?
• 20:54
  You know, these mon, these monks must have shown up, talked about, you know,
• 21:00
  love and peace to these people who were total warriors and instead of just killing
• 21:06
  these guys, why do you think they went?
• 21:08
  Yeah, that's a good idea, let's do that.
• 21:14
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 21:15
  This is so, interesting.
• 21:17
  I think outside I'd outside it's unique history, so it's, it's all gone.
• 21:23
  But in 200 years ago, the Mongols were still, you know, had the fighting
• 21:29
  spirits and after the chink, there's so many generations of the kings.
• 21:34
  Yeah.
• 21:35
  And they started, you know, their own territories.
• 21:38
  I mean, these, they call the chinks accessories they carried on their own.
• 21:45
  One of them were like 900 and 90 years.
• 21:48
  The other ones were.
• 21:49
  350 years.
• 21:51
  Yeah.
• 21:51
  K, k Tamerlan,
• 21:53
  Rupert Isaacson: all these guys.
• 21:54
  Yeah, exactly.
• 21:55
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 21:56
  And the golden, that is the battle.
• 21:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:59
  The king.
• 22:01
  And so they carried, they were carried on their own.
• 22:04
  So then all of a sudden, you know, they started to struggle
• 22:08
  each other and start to fight.
• 22:11
  That made Mongols collapse.
• 22:13
  So that's back in, in the 15th century then.
• 22:16
  Ah,
• 22:16
  Rupert Isaacson: civil wars.
• 22:17
  Yes.
• 22:17
  Moral,
• 22:18
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: you know, just, you know, Mongols were
• 22:20
  just really collapsed already.
• 22:23
  But at same time they still had a fighting spirits and even so they were big thrill.
• 22:32
  So in the 16 hundreds because of the big struggle, there's always
• 22:37
  someone to take over, you know?
• 22:40
  It's, it's in Mong golden history, if you know, one of the tribes, they
• 22:45
  were really powerful and they united the others and ruled all the state.
• 22:53
  So Mongols were one of the tribes who were very successful on that.
• 22:58
  So, which, which made the old, the nomadic tribes to be united united and carried on.
• 23:07
  So, which.
• 23:08
  In the 15th, 16th century, the Mongols were Mongol, the nomads were losing a
• 23:15
  power, and then all of a sudden they just collided and start to fight each other.
• 23:20
  And they go, I mean, the URIs half nomads in half, no much
• 23:25
  and half civilized tribes.
• 23:28
  Later on, they were known as, you know, Chinese, URIs or Chinese.
• 23:34
  Lots of people think would think URIs were Chinese, but the URIs
• 23:40
  were another different types.
• 23:43
  And they had their own states.
• 23:45
  And all of a sudden they became one of the biggest dynasties in whole Asia.
• 23:51
  So they took over Mongolia.
• 23:54
  So they, they used that technique to convert Mongols, you know,
• 24:01
  the fighting spirits they had.
• 24:03
  And it was hard to defeat moss.
• 24:06
  So they were patient, they used same technique, same tactic for 200 years.
• 24:15
  And they were encouraging the man to convert into la.
• 24:21
  And they were paid, even they paid to build monasteries in
• 24:25
  Mongolia Temples, mon complexes.
• 24:29
  There were so many of them were paid by man Kings and they were encouraging
• 24:35
  people especially the males, to go to Tibet to learn Buddhism.
• 24:42
  So basically, you know, you, it's you, you, right, Mongols
• 24:48
  were, you know, killing machines, war machines before the fact.
• 24:53
  Then all of a sudden, you know, there's a lot of your Buddhism
• 24:56
  is not to kill forgiveness.
• 25:00
  So, so it just made over the 200 years, just like many generations
• 25:08
  after, and somehow it worked so well.
• 25:11
  So basically then Mongols I would say reintroduced Tibetan Buddhism to Mongolia
• 25:19
  in the 16th century, in the 17th century.
• 25:23
  So we had our own religious leader who was one of the golden bloods,
• 25:28
  the king's blood of the Chines.
• 25:32
  The chin came mate himself with first Golden Bloods
• 25:35
  blood golden Bloods line age.
• 25:38
  So then everyone agreed 'cause of his re inclination the Buddhist.
• 25:46
  Very first Buddhist religious leader was golden blood.
• 25:50
  And then it just, so many things has changed in Mongol history, so,
• 25:59
  well, I would say the Urs, they played so good roles to convert
• 26:06
  Mongols in the 17th century.
• 26:10
  Then things have changed a lot.
• 26:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it, I, I think that it's one of the great unsung unknown
• 26:20
  achievements of humankind actually that the most war-like nature culture on the
• 26:26
  planet became one of the most peaceful.
• 26:32
  We have a similar thing in Europe actually, which is that the Vikings, you
• 26:37
  know, Scandinavia, that area was the most, you know, the most warlike over there, and
• 26:45
  they today are the peacekeepers of Europe.
• 26:49
  Yes, I wonder what's gonna happen with, with the England because, you know,
• 26:53
  we were also complete pirates, British empire aggression, and I don't think
• 27:00
  we have achieved the same level of peacefulness and enlightenment that.
• 27:08
  The Scandinavians or the Mongolians have, and I think, you know, it's so interesting
• 27:14
  when people look at history, they usually, we are, we're taught the big political
• 27:18
  events, the battles, the conquests.
• 27:22
  What we are not taught about is these types of cultural achievements where whole
• 27:29
  peoples decide, you know, maybe this way is not a good way, you know, for several
• 27:38
  million people to make this change.
• 27:42
  It's really an achievement.
• 27:44
  And I feel that Mongolians should be really proud of this.
• 27:47
  But it's interesting you talk about the, the, the fighting
• 27:50
  spirit, the warlike spirit.
• 27:51
  Of course, now in the new modern age, everybody wants
• 27:56
  mongolia's natural resources.
• 27:59
  So China's going in there, Russia's going in there, the western
• 28:02
  countries are going in there.
• 28:05
  I should imagine that something of the fighting spirit is still needed
• 28:13
  to hold the country from being pillaged for minerals and so on.
• 28:24
  How, how, what's, what's the situation now with that in Mongolia?
• 28:28
  How do.
• 28:30
  The new generation of Mongolia's, people like Tommo, your son, who obviously was
• 28:35
  Rowan's first friend, he's facing this new situation, this new Mongolia h How
• 28:41
  do people like him feel about this,
• 28:45
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Mongolia today?
• 28:48
  It's interesting.
• 28:49
  It's more democratic country sandwiched between Russia and China.
• 28:58
  So if you're looking at the map world's map, it just, you know, the
• 29:02
  huge Russia there and the China that I know in between, there's a Mongo
• 29:08
  is blue, so it's the red Russia to red China and the Blue Mongolia.
• 29:13
  It's a it's in our flag, the red, blue red.
• 29:19
  So this is, so for for Mongolia, we need to be always, you know, be
• 29:27
  aware of these two giants nowadays.
• 29:29
  I mean, there were moments the Mongols were very powerful
• 29:35
  and they were ruling Russia.
• 29:37
  They were ruling China, but it's all gone this past.
• 29:41
  So all we have is the, I know our own country independence and
• 29:47
  the good thing is we are free.
• 29:49
  And also another thing is.
• 29:53
  We have our own country.
• 29:55
  So that is a all our main, main thing.
• 30:00
  We should be very proud of that.
• 30:02
  And of course, it's so, rich in resources like copper, gold and coal.
• 30:08
  Yes.
• 30:09
  The world needs it and China, Russia, they need it for sure.
• 30:14
  But yes, I think Mongolian nowadays, nowadays we are so smart.
• 30:20
  I mean, still surviving in between these two giants.
• 30:26
  Big brown Bear and the Ponder Bear, they've just been between
• 30:30
  the Mong golden go bear there.
• 30:32
  So we need to be very smart.
• 30:34
  Otherwise things would go wrong easily.
• 30:38
  I think how much, how the government they're trying, I think that their
• 30:45
  best there is, I think there would be always complain about, you know, how the
• 30:51
  government is running badly in situations, but still, you know, I think we have I,
• 30:57
  I see the lights and I see, you know, the good, I mean the positiveness, a lot of
• 31:03
  positiveness in here because of, you know, our country's more democratic country
• 31:09
  and we have freedom to say what we think.
• 31:13
  Even some people without thinking, without judging, we still,
• 31:17
  you know, spread the word out.
• 31:19
  But, you know, it just so important nowadays, and also in
• 31:25
  the government's level they start listening the younger generations.
• 31:30
  So the last, let's say last four years the, I would say the youth, the
• 31:38
  younger generation, we were went out in the streets and the struck against
• 31:44
  governments and we managed to pull the down to governments in Mongolia.
• 31:51
  So that indicates, you know, if something goes wrong, we could,
• 31:56
  you know, come out and fight.
• 31:57
  And I mean, strike against governments and there's still this this kind of, you
• 32:04
  know, these periods, we still have it.
• 32:06
  I think it's very good sign.
• 32:08
  And if we feel wrong, if we, if we feel bad, we could just, you know, spread
• 32:15
  it out, you know, go out and the fights that is I think one of the basements of
• 32:21
  that democracy, democracy in the world.
• 32:25
  And we, I would, I wouldn't say we enjoying it, but we, we still using that.
• 32:33
  So.
• 32:34
  The, you know, opportunity in the, in, in the future is more positive, I would say.
• 32:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, you, you are, Mongolia is one of
• 32:45
  the great intact ecosystems of the northern hemisphere, right?
• 32:50
  It, this is immediately apparent when one is traveling there, one's looking
• 32:56
  at Mongolia going, wow, this is the planet as it's supposed to look.
• 33:02
  And I was always amused too, how you have the Western perspective.
• 33:07
  People talk about Mongolia.
• 33:09
  Outer Mongolia means the edge beyond everything.
• 33:14
  And of course, for Mongolians, what Mongolian means is home and it's the west.
• 33:19
  That's the edge of everything.
• 33:21
  But that homeland, that home is such a,
• 33:30
  a pure ecosystem.
• 33:32
  And what I mean by pure ecosystem is people often have this idea within the
• 33:37
  ecological movement that a pure ecosystem means an ecosystem without people.
• 33:43
  And of course this is not true.
• 33:44
  Humans are as much part of the ecosystem as any other animal or plant.
• 33:51
  And so to see people still able to live in that kind of harmony.
• 33:59
  Is, let's say it's educational.
• 34:04
  Even though we know the life is not easy.
• 34:06
  And then it's very apparent too when one is staying in those nomadic camps
• 34:13
  that the quality of life is very high, even though even though the weather
• 34:17
  is, is difficult and things are remote, people are in very good health.
• 34:21
  People are, there's a lot of gender equality.
• 34:24
  Children have a lot of freedom.
• 34:27
  People look after the land.
• 34:29
  The feeling is positive and good wherever one goes.
• 34:36
  Is this changing?
• 34:38
  Is this under threat and are Mongolian people as we move into this modern
• 34:44
  age, aware that this relationship of humans to nature is something that
• 34:50
  needs to be protected, nurtured?
• 34:55
  And if so, how?
• 34:57
  With the changing economy?
• 35:01
  Lots of questions.
• 35:01
  Wow.
• 35:02
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: This is, this is very good question.
• 35:04
  Yes.
• 35:05
  I think here Mongolia is one of the countries where it's where
• 35:10
  it's quite untouched nature.
• 35:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:13
  I mean, the Mongolia is like, 3.5
• 35:16
  million now in population.
• 35:20
  So it, and a huge land, it's just like a, a two person in
• 35:25
  one square of arm averages.
• 35:27
  So this is the lowest density in the whole world.
• 35:30
  So even with that, so the whole country, almost the whole most of the
• 35:37
  countries untouched, I would say so, and living in this kind of ecosystem
• 35:43
  I totally, I totally agree with that.
• 35:47
  The humans are part of the big eco, big part of that ecosystem system nowadays.
• 35:54
  So whole Mongolia, I think we are so privileged to have these big lands and
• 36:02
  in this untouched beautiful nature.
• 36:05
  So it seems, you know, even the, the popul population is growing and we
• 36:12
  are changing lot, lots more young generations moving to the city towns.
• 36:21
  So there are still, you know, huge I would say the huge thoughts of, you
• 36:29
  know, going back to being a nomad herd in young generation nowadays
• 36:36
  'cause of let's say lamb to city.
• 36:39
  That we say it's about 300 more than 370 years of history.
• 36:44
  But mainly speaking, there's only four or five generations being in
• 36:50
  settled in, in the city of a whole city where on the move, because
• 36:57
  we're nomad, nomadic, capital city.
• 37:01
  So
• 37:02
  Rupert Isaacson: we
• 37:02
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: had to move every season.
• 37:04
  Imagine the whole couples moving one place to another after three months.
• 37:10
  And so, so that must have been so difficult.
• 37:14
  So only, you know, 1850s we settled plant matter cities
• 37:20
  not start not moving from here.
• 37:23
  So many reasons, you know, because of these traders were having difficulties
• 37:29
  to find the capital city, right?
• 37:32
  So if, you know, the ones we're asking each other, you know,
• 37:34
  have you seen the, have you seen the capital Mongolian recently?
• 37:39
  Have you seen it?
• 37:41
  Oh, no, no.
• 37:41
  It has moved, you know, in the northern, northern area.
• 37:46
  So you, you might ask somebody else in, you know, coming in a
• 37:52
  couple of weeks, they might change.
• 37:53
  And so, so this kind of, you know, that things where thing I would say it's
• 37:59
  so unique, it's because of the norm.
• 38:02
  We still carried or carried that philosophy so much.
• 38:08
  And now, even nowadays like I said, like four or five generations,
• 38:12
  people mainly lived in the country.
• 38:15
  So we still carrying all this philosophy or to have our own genomic culture.
• 38:24
  So nowadays even, you know, the ones in and living in city, we,
• 38:32
  we just quite connected easily with the people in the country.
• 38:37
  In the normal, we always say Mongolians, every single Mongolians
• 38:41
  they have any relatives in the country.
• 38:45
  We have sayings where you're from.
• 38:47
  So I would say, oh, I'm from the ub Lamberton city.
• 38:51
  So they would say, no, no, no.
• 38:53
  Where's your background?
• 38:55
  So, which means, you know, your dad or your grand's father, where are they from?
• 39:00
  So I would say, oh, from Gobi.
• 39:02
  Oh yeah, that's it.
• 39:03
  So that, so, which means every mongs, we have a relatives back in this country,
• 39:10
  so we travel back and forth, and I think we not, you know, even the ones from the
• 39:17
  city not far away from the nomad culture.
• 39:21
  So I think this gap is just, you know, extending, extending, you
• 39:28
  know, each generations I would say.
• 39:31
  But, you know, the teaching our kids or without, you know, telling them, we just
• 39:38
  bringing them to the country, traveling.
• 39:41
  It's just the main role for families.
• 39:45
  Even nowadays especially in summertime, the huge movement.
• 39:51
  I mean, going back to the country during the summertime, if the whole
• 39:56
  big thing in Mongolia, because I mean, I would say the summer in Mongolia,
• 40:02
  one of the best places you want to be.
• 40:05
  So, then the whole mongs, I mean, people from the city town, they would, they
• 40:13
  would love to leave, leave it behind and go to the country for months.
• 40:18
  And so, so that means the people still, you know, back going
• 40:24
  back to the culture and nature.
• 40:27
  So I think it's, it's our it's our thing and we have this, this beautiful
• 40:34
  nature and beautiful culture.
• 40:36
  So this is like passing it generation to generation.
• 40:41
  But I, I still think the gap is extending, I mean the growing city and
• 40:48
  nomad even so, the Toma like for example from Toma, our son, my son he lives
• 40:55
  in the city, but he knows if he knows how to live in the country because I
• 41:02
  brought him to the country quite often.
• 41:05
  And so to, we live kind of staying there for longer to one or two months.
• 41:11
  So this is how we.
• 41:13
  Trying to leave our culture behind.
• 41:17
  Even the city, the ones in the country is all right.
• 41:21
  I mean, they, they, they do have their own problems, but you know, generally speaking
• 41:27
  they are really happy staying over there.
• 41:29
  Not modern days.
• 41:31
  Things are so much improved, for example because they use the solar panels a
• 41:38
  lot nowadays 'cause they have their own electricity to generate from the solar.
• 41:45
  And then things are so much they have mobile phones and they watch TVs and
• 41:51
  they have their own social medias.
• 41:55
  They, they use Facebook a lot.
• 41:57
  So, yes more than normal, I would say happy, I would say really happy
• 42:03
  living out in the, the country.
• 42:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Your, the place I know that's closest to your heart
• 42:12
  in Mongolia is actually not the area that we were in where we, we were up
• 42:17
  in Siberia with the reindeer people.
• 42:18
  I know that for you, the place closest to your heart is the Gobi, is the desert.
• 42:26
  Why is that?
• 42:27
  Because it's, it's known as one of the harshest.
• 42:32
  Landscapes on Earth, one of the most difficult places to survive,
• 42:35
  extremes of temperature, very little rainfall, et cetera.
• 42:39
  What is it about the Gobi that's such a special place?
• 42:47
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 42:47
  You see, when you, when you think about Mongolia, the Gobi comes out and
• 42:55
  quite a few things come up for sure.
• 42:58
  It seems the Gobi Desert it's been, firstly, I would say is firstly
• 43:04
  it's been advertised so much.
• 43:06
  And the secondly,
• 43:10
  there are so much of the natural resources there.
• 43:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:13
  Third, I would say a Gobi itself is just a really fascinating place.
• 43:19
  So if we think of desert, so, the Africa Sahara anywhere in the continent
• 43:27
  is, would have our own big deserts.
• 43:30
  So for mobility, the Goby deserts it just gets cold really.
• 43:36
  And we, we have snow in the Goby in the wintertime, and also it can
• 43:43
  be really green in the summertime.
• 43:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 43:48
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Same time, you know, you see this.
• 43:51
  Picture the filter behind me, the background was taken in the goby.
• 43:55
  Okay.
• 43:56
  You can't imagine that.
• 43:57
  No.
• 43:58
  Yes, you would take a step, but it's in the goby, down in the south Goby.
• 44:01
  How
• 44:01
  Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
• 44:02
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Taking it last year.
• 44:04
  So it's like that.
• 44:05
  So it's just incredible changes.
• 44:07
  You can see incredible changes, incredible places for sure to I think
• 44:13
  there's a very good energy as well.
• 44:16
  So huge emptiness and the wilderness, wild games.
• 44:21
  So much of that, so much of in there.
• 44:24
  And the sand juice, of course.
• 44:26
  Sand dunes big tall mountains that we have.
• 44:29
  And snow leopards and mountain goats and mountain heap.
• 44:34
  So many things there.
• 44:35
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 44:37
  Yeah.
• 44:37
  Makes me want to go immediately.
• 44:39
  Let's, let's talk about the spiritual aspect of the nature in Mongoli.
• 44:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 44:45
  So this is still obviously a part of the world where shamanic culture is unbroken.
• 44:52
  Even though the Soviets tried to break it, they couldn't.
• 44:56
  And obviously I myself am a recipient of the power of that
• 45:04
  healing culture because the child that we went out to Mongolia with.
• 45:11
  And the child we came back from Mongolia with were two very different children.
• 45:16
  And you and I both observed Rowan's healing as we made our journey
• 45:23
  from, do you remember that first ritual outside of Ula Batar where
• 45:28
  they whipped me and and Kristen.
• 45:31
  And I remember the watching the guy come across to me with the whip,
• 45:36
  and I'm like, he's gonna whip me.
• 45:38
  And I turned to you and I, I said, is he gonna whip me?
• 45:41
  And you went, ha, maybe a little bit.
• 45:44
  It's important not to cry out.
• 45:49
  And he whipped me so hard, he whipped me right across my groin.
• 45:55
  And it was like I left my body in that moment with the pain,
• 46:01
  but managed not to cry out.
• 46:03
  But what was so interesting about that, these of course were the shamans
• 46:08
  of the horse people, the steps was that I, at no point got any, any
• 46:15
  feeling that these people were trying to do anything other than help us
• 46:21
  with the best technology, spiritual technology that they had available.
• 46:27
  And of course, it was during that first ritual, which was in some ways
• 46:32
  so difficult that Rowan made his first friend with your son, with Tomo.
• 46:38
  And then.
• 46:39
  Each healer that we visited, Rowan became more and more present.
• 46:47
  And then by the time we were up with the reindeer people, the three days of
• 46:53
  healing there with ghost, the reindeer healer, 27 hours after we came down
• 46:59
  that mountain, Rowan did his first intentional shit and cleaned himself.
• 47:05
  And I always say this was like watching England win the World Cup.
• 47:09
  It really was.
• 47:11
  And we never looked back.
• 47:13
  And then if you remember, ghost told me that I had to do these
• 47:17
  three more healing journeys.
• 47:18
  So I did to Africa, to Australia, to the Navajo reservation.
• 47:23
  And everything that Ghost said would happen happened.
• 47:30
  And I know that I'm not the only one who has had this experience.
• 47:34
  And it's so interesting when we got back to the West and I published the
• 47:40
  story and made the film, of course they were successful, these stories in the
• 47:46
  film, but with success comes criticism.
• 47:49
  And a lot of people also attacked us and said, oh, you are saying,
• 47:54
  you know, shamanism cures autism or horses cure autism?
• 47:57
  And said, no, no, we're not.
• 47:59
  But what we are saying is.
• 48:02
  That there is a difference between healing and cure.
• 48:06
  Cure implies that you take something out completely.
• 48:11
  Rowan is still autistic.
• 48:13
  He, he, he, okay.
• 48:15
  He lives pretty independently now.
• 48:17
  He has his own car.
• 48:18
  He has his own house.
• 48:20
  He has a two, three jobs.
• 48:22
  He travels by himself.
• 48:24
  He, but he's still
• 48:28
  autistic.
• 48:29
  That is part of him.
• 48:31
  But the great gifts come with that autism.
• 48:33
  But the healing of the suffering that he was going through, the incontinence, the
• 48:41
  tantruming, the inability to make friends, the isolation, it was Mongolia and the
• 48:49
  contact with the nature and the shamans of Mongolia that really changed this.
• 48:54
  It was, there was a child who arrived in Mongolia and there was
• 48:58
  a very different child who got on the plane to leave Mongolia.
• 49:03
  You have of course seen this happen time and time again.
• 49:06
  You've taken many people to see Shannon's talk to us about your experience.
• 49:12
  What do you feel is going on?
• 49:13
  And you yourself were not, you were not necessarily brought up
• 49:17
  with this experience because as you say, you were a city boy.
• 49:20
  So this was something that really came through your, your career showing people.
• 49:27
  Mongolia and Mongolian culture, what are your impressions?
• 49:31
  Why do you think the Mongolian shamans are still so effective?
• 49:38
  And yeah, just, just talk to us about your impressions of this.
• 49:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:44
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 49:45
  Well, that was quite a lot of questions
• 49:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 49:48
  That I had to take.
• 49:49
  Yes.
• 49:49
  I apologize.
• 49:50
  Take it down.
• 49:51
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Just start wherever you wanna start.
• 49:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 49:54
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Okay.
• 49:55
  To begin with, Mongolia Shamanism.
• 49:59
  During the Soviet, even during the Soviet period they were very strongly
• 50:04
  pressed all the religion in Mongolia.
• 50:08
  You know, mon, during the Soviet period, period, let's say 1980s, the Mongolia
• 50:14
  was claiming the country with, with that a 99% not religious country.
• 50:24
  Because of, you know, we killed all the monks and destroyed all the monasteries.
• 50:29
  There's more than 700 complexes were destroyed.
• 50:33
  I mean, the monastery complexes with been destroyed.
• 50:37
  Lamas being purged and the 1930s and killed 30,000 lamas and monks.
• 50:45
  Including salmons as well.
• 50:47
  So just, you know, we have gone through really the dark periods
• 50:53
  during that Soviet period.
• 50:55
  And even so, you know, more in the, the Virgin North where in the remoteness
• 51:02
  where remote country mountains and the people still practiced shamanism and
• 51:09
  that's made they didn't, you know, I mean they irritated themselves in past
• 51:16
  that shamanism generation generations.
• 51:19
  This is how they managed firstly.
• 51:22
  So that's why Mongolian shamanism stayed alive a lot during, even
• 51:29
  during that dark period of Soviets.
• 51:33
  So, I'm glad you came to Mongolia and found, and you did your own work and the
• 51:42
  horses and the shamanism and the big open, open place, so suited for the kids kids.
• 51:52
  This is, that was your choice.
• 51:54
  I think I'm so grateful for that because of, you know, you said in 2006
• 52:03
  my, you mentioned my son is autistic.
• 52:07
  To begin with that.
• 52:08
  So in Mongolia I did, I've never heard of that.
• 52:14
  And I've asked my, you know, the doctor, friends and whoever
• 52:19
  in this psychiatric part.
• 52:22
  No one knew.
• 52:24
  No one knew what the autism was.
• 52:27
  That was really, really something.
• 52:31
  Then I asked, what is autism?
• 52:33
  How was your kids condition?
• 52:37
  You wrote two pages of a letter and I read it and I couldn't
• 52:43
  figure out you know, completely.
• 52:45
  I thought, Hmm, it's something wrong with, you know, the mantle
• 52:51
  or something is really different.
• 52:54
  I may have never seen it before.
• 52:57
  And I talked to my friends and they never experienced, they
• 53:01
  never had this experience.
• 53:03
  They knew Monga Lloyds, they knew someone, something else, but, and I, I shouldn't,
• 53:08
  I shouldn't mention that to Monga Lloyds.
• 53:10
  So, down syndrome,
• 53:12
  Rupert Isaacson: we, we call it Yeah,
• 53:13
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.
• 53:14
  It, the syndrome down.
• 53:15
  And then by the time it was, it named Mongoloid, but I'm glad it's
• 53:22
  changed to down, but they don't, they don't mention it anymore.
• 53:26
  So it's Down Syndrome and yes, so.
• 53:30
  I would say after you came to Mongolia and leave left the country and you wrote the
• 53:37
  book about it then the movie was released.
• 53:41
  That's a movie was shown in, on Mongo, on Mongolia TVs.
• 53:47
  All the TVs, I would say all of them.
• 53:50
  They, they showed to Mongolia a lot, maybe I would say, over and over.
• 53:57
  So then the people started to understand what the autism was and
• 54:03
  now it's the one, you know, the, whenever we say autism, it just, you
• 54:08
  know, people know it's already Yeah.
• 54:11
  And we accept the kids, you know, the behavior of the kids and the parents.
• 54:18
  You know, it just, you know, everything about autism is accepted
• 54:23
  after you left the country.
• 54:25
  We made the movie we wrote a book about it.
• 54:28
  So we, I think we should be very thankful for you during that.
• 54:35
  Moving on to that, you know, the very first this, this shamanic
• 54:42
  ceremony out outside of just a little bit outside of lamb to city
• 54:47
  and in the bottom of the mountain.
• 54:49
  When you start mentioning about it, all my memories came back.
• 54:55
  I mean, it just there was nine shamans and, you know, they started one by one
• 55:00
  and all of a sudden one of them I didn't, I I, I wouldn't say that he'd decided to,
• 55:06
  we, but they just, I think the naturally, I mean, just one of the, they, their
• 55:13
  methods I knew it was coming and I was like, you know, trying to make it soft to
• 55:20
  tell you softer way, but I like the ways.
• 55:23
  But yes, at the end it was, I mean, it was hit so hard I could see that.
• 55:28
  Oh,
• 55:28
  Rupert Isaacson: oh,
• 55:29
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: oh, yeah.
• 55:30
  That was, I would say, so intense and to describe that.
• 55:36
  But, you know, at the end things changed immediately.
• 55:41
  I mean, that is a thing, you know.
• 55:45
  Then Toma arrived and arrives with, with his mom, my wife,
• 55:51
  in the middle of the ceremony.
• 55:53
  Then he starts to running, he start running to towards,
• 55:57
  to Towa and start hugging.
• 56:00
  And you were so happy with that.
• 56:02
  And we'd never, he'd
• 56:03
  Rupert Isaacson: never done that before to another child, ever.
• 56:06
  Like never.
• 56:07
  Mm.
• 56:08
  And it happened in the middle of that ceremony.
• 56:11
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
• 56:11
  That was very, I mean, it's magical moment, one of the magical moments.
• 56:16
  So for us, it just, 'cause I, I've never experienced the autism before
• 56:20
  and it was like quite common.
• 56:22
  And I thought, Hmm, why, why is he so happy about it?
• 56:27
  And, and also when we, in a few days we left the, left the country
• 56:33
  and we were driving and all of a sudden we stopped and the kids went
• 56:38
  out and start to play the pirates.
• 56:41
  And you were extraordinary, extra happy with that.
• 56:46
  So then I, I thought, hmm, this is normal.
• 56:48
  We kids can play each other.
• 56:50
  So that means I've, we've, we've never known the autism before.
• 56:56
  We've never experienced this and I've never experienced it before.
• 56:59
  So then after you left, I realized a lot about the, the autism and how
• 57:07
  it works and also how the, the main thing is how the community accepted.
• 57:15
  That is a very interesting, and after you left and the movie released
• 57:20
  book was released, and it was painted in Mon Mongolian after the,
• 57:26
  was it if I'm not mistaken, 22nd language, and that was Mongolian.
• 57:32
  And people read it and watched it a lot.
• 57:36
  And people contacted in Mongolia.
• 57:38
  Mongolia contacted me a lot, and all of a sudden there were so many autistic
• 57:43
  kids came out and this, the com community started to accept them, you know, and
• 57:52
  then it made huge changes, I would say.
• 57:55
  It made huge changes, right?
• 57:58
  So
• 57:59
  Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
• 58:01
  an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
• 58:08
  people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
• 58:13
  Are you a therapist?
• 58:15
  Are you a caregiver?
• 58:16
  Are you a parent?
• 58:18
  Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
• 58:21
  When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
• 58:26
  I really didn't know what to do.
• 58:28
  So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
• 58:33
  autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
• 58:36
  Temple Grandin.
• 58:37
  And she told me what to do.
• 58:39
  And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
• 58:44
  That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
• 58:48
  countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
• 58:52
  Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
• 58:57
  If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
• 59:02
  approach, it's called Movement Method.
• 59:05
  You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
• 59:08
  It's almost laughably simple.
• 59:11
  The important thing is to begin.
• 59:15
  Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
• 59:18
  Grandin and see what results can follow.
• 59:22
  Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
• 59:27
  com Sign up as a gold member.
• 59:30
  Take the online movement method course.
• 59:34
  It's in 40 countries.
• 59:36
  Let us know how it goes for you.
• 59:38
  We really want to know.
• 59:39
  We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
• 59:44
  live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
• 59:48
  I had no idea that the book and that the story was so influential
• 59:52
  within Mongolia, I didn't know that
• 59:55
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: it had had this big effect.
• 59:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, well, that's good.
• 59:58
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.
• 59:59
  It's good.
• 1:00:00
  Yes, it's good.
• 1:00:01
  And I've met a few people, you know, from the, they even have sessions.
• 1:00:08
  Sessions and trying to, you know, they bring up the kids in the norm in the
• 1:00:13
  normal classrooms and things like that.
• 1:00:15
  It just happens.
• 1:00:17
  And I'm not sure what's happening right now, and things are so much change there.
• 1:00:21
  So I, I think the
• 1:00:25
  immediately we learned autism and we immediately suffered the autism
• 1:00:31
  in Port Mongo whole Mongolia.
• 1:00:34
  So it's a big thing for me, you know, as a city boy growing without any religion
• 1:00:42
  and, when the collapse of the communism were allowing us to have our own religion.
• 1:00:50
  So Mongos picked up Buddhism, but I followed it and I tried to go to monastery
• 1:00:59
  Tibetan Buddhist monastery in here.
• 1:01:01
  So then started to seeing some of the shamans and just one or two only,
• 1:01:07
  and just getting, you know, just had a little about understanding, little
• 1:01:13
  understanding of how it works and things were, you know, still, and very
• 1:01:21
  small experience with that religion.
• 1:01:24
  So all of a sudden, and you came and things changed, changed and my
• 1:01:31
  knowledge of, you know, the shamanism started to gaining a lot and meeting
• 1:01:38
  big shams and shams after that even things so much have changed.
• 1:01:43
  Yes.
• 1:01:44
  So, wow.
• 1:01:45
  Thank you from the Mongolians to making all this, you know, efforts make change
• 1:01:53
  the Mongolian perspective of shaman, no.
• 1:01:57
  The autism in Mongolia.
• 1:01:59
  Autism how it works so much so.
• 1:02:04
  I think it was, well, wow.
• 1:02:05
  I wasn't
• 1:02:06
  Rupert Isaacson: expecting this at all.
• 1:02:07
  Thank you so much.
• 1:02:08
  I, you know, it's always good to have
• 1:02:13
  yeah.
• 1:02:13
  I, I, I, I had no idea.
• 1:02:15
  I had no idea.
• 1:02:17
  I have seen, you know, some of the effects of what we've done in the
• 1:02:22
  West, but I, I didn't know that it had had such a profound effect for
• 1:02:27
  people like my son in, in Mongolia.
• 1:02:31
  So I'm, I'm very grateful to hear this.
• 1:02:33
  Thank you.
• 1:02:34
  Why do you think,
• 1:02:39
  what do you, you know, I, I have my own theories about why Shamanism works
• 1:02:44
  when it works well, because I've seen it now in so many, in so many contexts,
• 1:02:49
  and it's always interesting to me.
• 1:02:50
  I do understand why people are skeptical, but there's, I always
• 1:02:55
  have a question for people when they say, well, these guys are, it's,
• 1:03:00
  it's gotta be bullshit, you know?
• 1:03:02
  And I say, well, if it was bullshit, honestly, most of the people that
• 1:03:08
  live in those areas would be dead because they live so far from any
• 1:03:15
  kind of western medicine that if this was not effective they would
• 1:03:22
  not be there because people get sick.
• 1:03:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:24
  And, you know, so.
• 1:03:28
  And then usually the people who are very skeptical have nothing to say to that
• 1:03:32
  argument, but I do understand why they have trouble accepting it, because of
• 1:03:38
  course, it's outside of their experience.
• 1:03:41
  What is it that you, you now have had quite a lot of experience with this
• 1:03:45
  because after the horse boy, I know quite a few autism families contacted you and
• 1:03:50
  also came out wanting to see shamans.
• 1:03:53
  You've, you, you've had a lot more contact with it now.
• 1:03:56
  What do you think makes it so effective?
• 1:04:03
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: You said earlier the clearing, caring,
• 1:04:09
  and healing is different.
• 1:04:13
  I totally agree with that.
• 1:04:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:04:15
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: So the healing power is something something they
• 1:04:22
  were given really determines Yes.
• 1:04:27
  Modern days.
• 1:04:28
  Now everyone know if we don't like it, we say, I don't like you, I
• 1:04:34
  don't like it, so I don't trust it.
• 1:04:37
  So yes, it's, it's up to the people.
• 1:04:40
  Yes, that's fine.
• 1:04:42
  It so things like the shamanism, shamans or who.
• 1:04:49
  Really believe in that and following it.
• 1:04:54
  And I do respect them.
• 1:04:56
  And in some, some, somehow it seems a lot of people, they want a magic.
• 1:05:04
  Hmm.
• 1:05:06
  They want things to change immediately.
• 1:05:10
  They want to change now or they want to change completely.
• 1:05:15
  I think it's the one of the ways I mean, one of the expectations from
• 1:05:21
  the people when, whenever they see the shamans or to do the ceremony, I
• 1:05:27
  think it seems it's a little bit of diff different expectations, isn't it?
• 1:05:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:33
  And
• 1:05:35
  then, you know, afterwards or you know, the ceremony happens, the healing happens.
• 1:05:42
  It's, it's, it's more of, you know, healing than your body.
• 1:05:48
  It's the, the mind soul, it's the energy itself.
• 1:05:54
  You know, things are, it's a combination, I would say.
• 1:05:59
  It's a combination.
• 1:06:01
  You can't just, you know, it's also, you know, the nature, beautiful nature and
• 1:06:06
  the animals, horses, it's everything.
• 1:06:10
  It's a combination of everything.
• 1:06:12
  I would say.
• 1:06:13
  To heal that the ones, whatever the, the cause of the illness.
• 1:06:20
  So when you come to approach the chairman to, to asking
• 1:06:25
  whatever the, the reason was.
• 1:06:27
  I think it's the combination.
• 1:06:29
  I would say yes.
• 1:06:30
  Channels can do the magic.
• 1:06:33
  I would say yes.
• 1:06:35
  Channels cannot do magic, I would say no.
• 1:06:39
  They just, you know, people nowadays, they like to judge or they like to
• 1:06:46
  make a decisions before they try it.
• 1:06:52
  It seems a lot of people, I mean, they try a little bit and they just give up.
• 1:07:00
  So things are like that.
• 1:07:05
  And more than days is quite, quite a lot happening.
• 1:07:09
  A lot I would say
• 1:07:13
  yes.
• 1:07:14
  Whole tribe whole in the northern region.
• 1:07:17
  They still practice very strongly that shamanic practices there very strong.
• 1:07:24
  And they still carry, carry, carry.
• 1:07:27
  These practice runs.
• 1:07:31
  Over the years and years, so many years now.
• 1:07:35
  But, you know, they still believe in that.
• 1:07:39
  It's the, you know, the purpose is not only, you know, the healing.
• 1:07:42
  It's not only, you know, to do the magic words.
• 1:07:45
  It's just there practice.
• 1:07:47
  I think we should accept it in that way too.
• 1:07:51
  In that way too.
• 1:07:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Have you, have, you yourself sought out healing from some of
• 1:08:04
  the shaman since the horse voice story?
• 1:08:06
  Have you begun to use this in your life
• 1:08:10
  mm-hmm.
• 1:08:13
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Since you left?
• 1:08:16
  I, I kind of worked more than 200 shas.
• 1:08:22
  Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
• 1:08:23
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 1:08:24
  I just start to see more and more.
• 1:08:26
  There were new shamans.
• 1:08:29
  There were, you know, s from the Western Mongolia.
• 1:08:31
  There were shamans in the Kirby.
• 1:08:34
  I was really excited to see them and work with them and asking a lot of
• 1:08:38
  questions and try to appeal their energy.
• 1:08:42
  Ceremonies.
• 1:08:44
  So many ceremonies.
• 1:08:45
  So many ceremonies.
• 1:08:47
  Yes, I have been asking and to do healing myself.
• 1:08:53
  No, not really.
• 1:08:54
  But you know,
• 1:08:57
  most of the time I was with someone else.
• 1:09:01
  And then I hadn't had much of time to ask myself.
• 1:09:06
  And only a few questions, but very practical questions like
• 1:09:11
  there's something which bother me and I cannot achieve things.
• 1:09:15
  And I, I go, the chairman he said he, he did his ceremony and he
• 1:09:22
  looked at me and said, I took there was a key or tool of your car.
• 1:09:28
  You sold your car, you sold it, and you kept, you kept
• 1:09:32
  the key or you know, the tool.
• 1:09:35
  But he said the key you still have it extra key?
• 1:09:39
  And I said, no yes, I sold my car, but I, I never thought I, I kept the, the key.
• 1:09:47
  And he, he said, it, it might be some tool.
• 1:09:50
  You, you, you ha still have it that is bothering, there's something
• 1:09:57
  causing for you to have, you know, this kind of spiritual,
• 1:10:04
  spiritually new, spiritual mind new.
• 1:10:07
  So I said, okay, I'll check.
• 1:10:10
  Then then I came back and home.
• 1:10:14
  I went to my home and I found the key, found the key.
• 1:10:20
  So I thought, Hmm, I've never known that.
• 1:10:22
  So then I had to dump it and do some ceremonies to clear up.
• 1:10:27
  And this kind of magic really works.
• 1:10:30
  Yes.
• 1:10:31
  And what happened after
• 1:10:32
  Rupert Isaacson: you did that?
• 1:10:33
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: I think after that I clearly, I was I clearly re remembered
• 1:10:41
  that because of, you know, I was, I think I was trying to get something,
• 1:10:47
  but it didn't work so much on that.
• 1:10:51
  I thought I couldn't achieve it, and it was related with something my
• 1:10:59
  financial situation and is related to bank and things like that.
• 1:11:04
  So after that it just smoothly smoothly fixed.
• 1:11:11
  Yeah.
• 1:11:12
  And I thought, wow, wow, wow.
• 1:11:15
  Yes, it worked.
• 1:11:17
  So other than that, I've never had that feeling for myself
• 1:11:22
  only, you know, I was chatting.
• 1:11:26
  Ghost the shaman and the other shamans a lot.
• 1:11:29
  What happens if I do this and that once if I meet the load of the mountain, in the
• 1:11:36
  mountain that kind of questions I, I've have had, I mean, conversations a lot.
• 1:11:47
  Rupert Isaacson: What was his answer to What happens if you
• 1:11:49
  meet the Lord of the mountain?
• 1:11:50
  And also what is the Lord of the mountain?
• 1:11:52
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Oh yes.
• 1:11:55
  The Lord of the mountain, the Mongolia, every big mountains and big rivers
• 1:12:01
  rivers, they have a master who owns it.
• 1:12:07
  And we have to be respectful.
• 1:12:10
  Otherwise, they get angry.
• 1:12:13
  If they get angry, they could hurt you.
• 1:12:17
  So then once, and it's when there was a time I was chatting
• 1:12:25
  with the chairman about it.
• 1:12:27
  So I felt a lot of the mountain maybe is quite scary.
• 1:12:34
  It can be quite aggressive.
• 1:12:37
  'cause someone new, hearing new.
• 1:12:40
  So he might hurt me because no, no, all.
• 1:12:45
  He wouldn't dare to hurt you.
• 1:12:48
  Only thing if you, if you do bad things, then he can hurt you.
• 1:12:55
  So what would be his, you know, I was asked, asked him what the
• 1:13:01
  creature, you know, I could tell, oh, he's the, the lord of a mountain.
• 1:13:08
  How can I recognize the Lord of a mountain?
• 1:13:12
  So the said, oh, it's simple.
• 1:13:16
  He can, he can come out like a small boy or the beautiful deer or a bear.
• 1:13:26
  It can, you know, it can be anything.
• 1:13:30
  But you don't have to be afraid of.
• 1:13:34
  Only thing I is afraid of is you know, the bad spirits who's been too old and
• 1:13:43
  too naughty too I mean, lived long and starting to starting to give them the,
• 1:13:53
  you know, the bad energies to people.
• 1:13:56
  Then you have to be a very aware of that.
• 1:13:58
  I remember that he said.
• 1:14:01
  So then, then.
• 1:14:04
  I asked him, what happens if that's bad?
• 1:14:08
  There's a ghost, or it's like a devil.
• 1:14:12
  Take it over me.
• 1:14:14
  Can I just, you know, get, get rid of, get rid of it by myself?
• 1:14:19
  He said, no, you can't.
• 1:14:22
  You need someone like me.
• 1:14:24
  That was, he said, that was very interesting conversation we had.
• 1:14:30
  Rupert Isaacson: And one of the things I, well one of the things I suspect is that
• 1:14:37
  through having brought so many people to see the shamans in the last 20
• 1:14:45
  years you have been present at a lot of healing ceremonies, I presume.
• 1:14:51
  And just as I have, you know, I've been present at a lot of ceremonies from in
• 1:14:56
  many, many different countries, um mm-hmm.
• 1:15:00
  Usually for other people.
• 1:15:02
  And I think what happens when one does this is you of course,
• 1:15:08
  always get healing as well.
• 1:15:10
  And I think there's also something healing about arranging healings for other
• 1:15:16
  people, and then of course, so that's what that, that's healing in and of itself.
• 1:15:22
  Then the second thing is.
• 1:15:24
  You are there during the ceremony, some of that energy is going to come to you.
• 1:15:30
  And I like you, I, I spent so many years helping people
• 1:15:40
  find shamans and healers and not just my son, but you know, other
• 1:15:47
  people for other reasons too.
• 1:15:49
  Thank you.
• 1:15:49
  Say what?
• 1:15:50
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:15:51
  That's a lovely compliment.
• 1:15:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah.
• 1:15:55
  You, you've, you've, you've really helped to heal a lot of people and Of course.
• 1:15:59
  So therefore you have received a lot of healing yourself.
• 1:16:03
  Yes.
• 1:16:05
  The, the first time I think that I really went just for myself was I think 2018.
• 1:16:18
  And then I did it again in 2021 with the, with the healer that I, on the
• 1:16:25
  Navajo reservation that I took Rowan to at the last of the three healings that
• 1:16:31
  the Mongolian Shaman GOs told me to do.
• 1:16:34
  And it took me all those years before I went for my own healing.
• 1:16:41
  Mm.
• 1:16:41
  But I think that I have really benefited from.
• 1:16:48
  Being part of those ceremonies and, and arranging those ceremonies for others.
• 1:16:53
  And I think the same has happened to you.
• 1:16:55
  I think that you've been a catalyst for the healing for many, many people.
• 1:17:01
  And this must have, you know, had a very good effect on you because I'm,
• 1:17:09
  I'm sitting here looking at you.
• 1:17:11
  You are nearly 60.
• 1:17:14
  You look great.
• 1:17:15
  You know, your health is good.
• 1:17:17
  You, you, you, you still have the air of a, of a young man.
• 1:17:21
  Um
• 1:17:23
  mm-hmm.
• 1:17:24
  Tell us some of the, the other people who've come now
• 1:17:31
  through you to see healers.
• 1:17:32
  There must be certain stories that stand out, not just the horse boy
• 1:17:37
  story, but there must be Yeah.
• 1:17:39
  Certain other people that you brought that have had really strong healings.
• 1:17:44
  Can you tell us any of these?
• 1:17:48
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Wow.
• 1:17:49
  Where can I start?
• 1:17:51
  I think, you know, when the book was released, it's 2009, there was a huge
• 1:17:59
  thing from Mongolia, even now, the Mongolian tourism few of my the tourist.
• 1:18:07
  Company's friends who work and chosen company or run the company's dimensions.
• 1:18:13
  You know, half of their tourist clients when they come, they all read
• 1:18:22
  the book, the book, the Horse Boy, and the other half already purchased and they,
• 1:18:30
  they wanted to read it during the trip.
• 1:18:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:18:35
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: And I've met so many of them and the Mon in Mongolia,
• 1:18:40
  they reading the book, the Horse Boy, I always, you know, I was
• 1:18:47
  always impressed and were happy.
• 1:18:50
  And there's a question I was, I always ask, which part
• 1:18:54
  do you enjoy it more, most?
• 1:18:59
  And then they carry on to talking about, you know, the nine shaman
• 1:19:04
  ceremonies, the whipping part.
• 1:19:07
  Wow.
• 1:19:08
  This is, this is the part that people, people always bring it up.
• 1:19:13
  Bring it out and want to talk or want to share that that part of the story.
• 1:19:20
  So I always, you know, to tell them stories and how it went and
• 1:19:26
  and I was happy to share them.
• 1:19:29
  What happens in there.
• 1:19:30
  And also there were some other stories behind the story, behind it's like
• 1:19:36
  behind the scene which I've never told, I think to told you some of them.
• 1:19:45
  I would like to share that maybe just a little bit.
• 1:19:49
  Then it just changed a lot the perspective of tourism in Mongolia before the horse
• 1:19:57
  board movie in two thousands 10 ish.
• 1:20:02
  And the, all, the, most of the movies about Mongolia were not a good side.
• 1:20:09
  I would say.
• 1:20:10
  They were mentioning about three children.
• 1:20:13
  They were mentioning about, you know, Mongolia, the whole economy is going
• 1:20:19
  down, but the countryside is beautiful, but still, there's something, you know,
• 1:20:23
  going and not really happening, but the.
• 1:20:28
  Horse Boy Booty came out.
• 1:20:30
  I think it changed quite a lot, quite a lot of, you know, the movie makers.
• 1:20:35
  They, they started to see Mongolias in another beautiful country and also Wow.
• 1:20:40
  It's the country itself is just different.
• 1:20:43
  The shamanism Wow.
• 1:20:45
  Has seemed, there's so many the videos came, I mean, come out about the
• 1:20:51
  shamanism in Koreans, French well, I'm not sure who else, who else did it.
• 1:20:59
  So it changed a lot in the the tourism back, the tourism
• 1:21:05
  perspective while in the meeting.
• 1:21:09
  A lot of shamans Wow.
• 1:21:11
  Things changed a lot after that.
• 1:21:15
  Then all of a sudden, the whole Mongolia, you know, start to change.
• 1:21:20
  People start to practice shamanism after that a lot.
• 1:21:24
  And the, the ones now, then they're not normal.
• 1:21:31
  They start thinking themselves around.
• 1:21:34
  They can be shaman.
• 1:21:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yes.
• 1:21:37
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: And then a couple of years later, they have to stop it.
• 1:21:43
  So that's why I wanted to see a lot.
• 1:21:47
  Germans throughout Mongolia and to have conversation, conversation
• 1:21:52
  and to try that the ceremonies, whether it's really happening or not.
• 1:21:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:59
  And of course it was boom, there was boom in Mongolia.
• 1:22:04
  And again, when you mentioned people criticized a lot.
• 1:22:10
  Yes, it happens in Mongolia as well.
• 1:22:13
  And every time there was a big criticism happening.
• 1:22:18
  The chairman's always, you know, they said, Hey, if you don't believe
• 1:22:23
  it, watch the movie The Horse Boy.
• 1:22:25
  There's a movie, there's a real shaman movie.
• 1:22:29
  Hey, you need to watch it.
• 1:22:30
  This is something like that.
• 1:22:31
  So, I think in, in the world of this cha sha shamanism or shamanic practices, the
• 1:22:40
  horse boy had stepped too, too deep and there was big, huge movement left there.
• 1:22:50
  Pains.
• 1:22:51
  Then yes experiencing a lot of shamanic ceremonies, I think.
• 1:22:58
  In each time I could feel it.
• 1:23:00
  Yes.
• 1:23:01
  It just happening whenever I start feeling just happening.
• 1:23:07
  It's just, yes.
• 1:23:09
  The work, the work.
• 1:23:10
  When you describe Catalyzer, so I think Catalyzer, this is, I
• 1:23:15
  really liked it, so yes, it does.
• 1:23:18
  I I haven't come up.
• 1:23:19
  The point I wanted to hear myself with the shaman, I think in each time the
• 1:23:25
  ceremony is happening there's some of, I mean, some of shamans, they are already
• 1:23:31
  better mind and, and they gave me a good energy and some, some of them, some small
• 1:23:36
  ceremonies even I experienced it for sure.
• 1:23:40
  And I have a few good German friends now in the Northern Mongolia and
• 1:23:46
  some somewhere, which is, yes, things are now, I mean, coming back to,
• 1:23:54
  you know, there's so many of them became Germans and had to stop.
• 1:23:59
  So I think Mongolia, we, we, we had to, you know, we'd gone through and
• 1:24:07
  that's the big test I would say.
• 1:24:09
  And now the real shamans or shamanism still practicing here and there and
• 1:24:17
  it just a little bit, you know, to cool it down, but still, you know,
• 1:24:21
  the people still very strongly living shamanism and following it.
• 1:24:28
  Well, to me, sadly when the people, they only needed it,
• 1:24:35
  they go and ask to help them.
• 1:24:40
  Not practicing it, not respecting it, just only I want to, you
• 1:24:46
  know, to get something from you.
• 1:24:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:24:49
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: I can pay you, I can pay you, I can, that's fine.
• 1:24:54
  But you know, you need to understand what is it, and you need to, you
• 1:24:59
  know, I respect and practice it.
• 1:25:02
  Then it just, you know, things, things would go in order.
• 1:25:06
  Otherwise you just, you know, it's trading.
• 1:25:09
  Sadly it happens a lot.
• 1:25:12
  Then sometimes I could say, hmm, things not working that way.
• 1:25:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:25:17
  I think, I think that that one could say the same thing though
• 1:25:20
  about Western medicine and that people will go to see a doctor.
• 1:25:24
  But whether one follows the doctor's recommendations.
• 1:25:28
  Or what, what people sometimes do, sometimes don't.
• 1:25:33
  Not every doctor is a good doctor.
• 1:25:35
  Some doctors misdiagnose and are arrogant.
• 1:25:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:39
  Others doctors are very humble and very good.
• 1:25:42
  You don't know till you try.
• 1:25:44
  But the system of medicine as a whole is a very good thing.
• 1:25:49
  And I would say that's quite similar within the Shamanic.
• 1:25:53
  And I think you're right, that in, in the last 20 years, there were a lot
• 1:25:58
  of people who felt a desire to become shamans who were not going to go through
• 1:26:09
  the rigorous three decades of training with a man like Ghost Up in Siberia, or
• 1:26:17
  that, that it takes to really actually do this in the same, it would be a
• 1:26:23
  little bit like saying, well, I want to be a medical doctor, but I'm not
• 1:26:26
  really gonna go to medical school.
• 1:26:27
  You know?
• 1:26:28
  Um mm-hmm.
• 1:26:29
  Well, yeah.
• 1:26:31
  But what is also true with this is that, you know, and the, the Bushman
• 1:26:35
  in Africa say this a lot, that they say about 50% of people can heal.
• 1:26:41
  But a much smaller minority of those people have a, if you like a vocational.
• 1:26:49
  Pull, but you still need this system of training if it's really going to work.
• 1:26:56
  And this system of training is about three decades.
• 1:26:59
  Yeah.
• 1:26:59
  It's, it's very, very long.
• 1:27:01
  Which of course, if you're living in the community where you are practicing
• 1:27:06
  your healing, but you're also a hunter or you're a reindeer herder, or you're
• 1:27:10
  a horse herder or whatever, well, your apprenticeship to the older shaman is just
• 1:27:17
  going to be built in to your way of life.
• 1:27:19
  But if you are yeah, living in the city trying to have a job and
• 1:27:24
  doing this on the weekends, this is difficult because you are not you're
• 1:27:30
  not really immersed in that world.
• 1:27:32
  And I could see how even in Mongolia, particularly in the city in where
• 1:27:37
  people would've felt perhaps a real with desire to connect with that
• 1:27:42
  culture, but without really living that culture, there could have been a boom
• 1:27:49
  in, let's say not so good practice.
• 1:27:54
  But as you say, once that cools off, then the people who are still living
• 1:27:58
  out in the remote rural district, practic this thing that they've always
• 1:28:03
  practiced, well, they're still there.
• 1:28:05
  And those people are independent of fashions or, or fads.
• 1:28:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:28:12
  That said, probably some of the people within Mongo, within Ula
• 1:28:15
  Batar itself probably were good healers or perhaps still are.
• 1:28:20
  But just, yeah, maybe not with access to the best mentorship.
• 1:28:25
  But in terms of you, you know, you've been going all over the country now
• 1:28:30
  and been exposed to a lot of healers.
• 1:28:34
  Have you seen some similar types of story to Rowans to the Horse Boy?
• 1:28:38
  Have you seen some healings that really did leave a lasting change
• 1:28:47
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: in last 20 years?
• 1:28:50
  I have worked quite a few families.
• 1:28:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:28:57
  As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here.
• 1:29:01
  And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
• 1:29:06
  the old classical dressage masters.
• 1:29:10
  This is something which is often very confusing for people.
• 1:29:13
  We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
• 1:29:18
  If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
• 1:29:23
  really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
• 1:29:29
  com Sign up as a premium member.
• 1:29:31
  and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
• 1:29:36
  to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
• 1:29:41
  And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
• 1:29:46
  Heliosharmony.
• 1:29:47
  com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
• 1:29:52
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Some of them received a recommendation from you
• 1:29:55
  and some of them found me internet.
• 1:29:59
  Yes,
• 1:30:02
  I think there was a family they came to Lia.
• 1:30:06
  They were, they're, they're from New York.
• 1:30:10
  And we've, we took it quite shorter trip than us.
• 1:30:15
  So ours were quite a long one.
• 1:30:18
  Lasted like four weeks, isn't it?
• 1:30:21
  Mm.
• 1:30:21
  In, then, then with that family we had about a couple of weeks and that
• 1:30:31
  time the ghost chairman, he was alive and we were sticking to, to see him.
• 1:30:38
  And yes, we did see him as well.
• 1:30:41
  And we had the ceremonies of
• 1:30:49
  city and mom wasn't, was like, I told why it's not happening in the book.
• 1:30:58
  It worked immediately.
• 1:31:00
  The boy changed immediately.
• 1:31:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:31:04
  Why is not, isn't happening.
• 1:31:06
  So I was like, okay.
• 1:31:09
  Every kid is different.
• 1:31:11
  We have to wait.
• 1:31:13
  We need to be we, because it's, it's the only I mean it's not only Germans.
• 1:31:18
  We, we need to take the trip.
• 1:31:21
  Whole trip is about for that kid.
• 1:31:25
  And the kid was like his 4-year-old and no speaking.
• 1:31:31
  He, he's like going around, let me all this the autistic kids, about 4, 5, 6
• 1:31:39
  year olds, they just run and run and pick up things where he was more like
• 1:31:43
  addicted to picking up cigarette butts.
• 1:31:47
  'cause he, in Mongolia, you can find them so easily nowadays a bit different.
• 1:31:53
  But, you know, by the time it was, and he was like picking up the secret
• 1:31:57
  butts and if there is know alcohol around, he's quite, you know, into it.
• 1:32:04
  And the bo you know, shop the supermarkets, he goes up there
• 1:32:10
  and, you know, pointing to whiskeys and things like that.
• 1:32:13
  So I thought, Hmm.
• 1:32:15
  A very old spirit.
• 1:32:18
  So he did, he didn't talk in the he could, you know, turn back if we call his name.
• 1:32:27
  And then we, we were riding, we rode horses up to her mountains and
• 1:32:33
  exactly the same route we have taken.
• 1:32:37
  Yeah.
• 1:32:38
  And we, we have seen ghost shaman and he did some ceremony and then we went down
• 1:32:46
  and the mom still, you know, species, and I said, I told guys it's not happening.
• 1:32:52
  It's not happening.
• 1:32:55
  No words.
• 1:32:56
  So we made, we may just, you know, have to wait a bit.
• 1:33:01
  Every kid is different, you know.
• 1:33:04
  Then there was out driving and driving them.
• 1:33:08
  The whole family is with me.
• 1:33:10
  And when we get to the Moin town you know, there were the same place.
• 1:33:15
  We stayed in Moin Town, as you know, remember this small girl
• 1:33:21
  and there was a big the White House apartment in a house like
• 1:33:25
  restaurants and two, this is in Moron?
• 1:33:28
  Yeah, I remember this.
• 1:33:29
  Yeah.
• 1:33:29
  In Moron Town.
• 1:33:30
  Yes.
• 1:33:30
  Yeah.
• 1:33:30
  When, when I was driving and just into that, the camp then he, he
• 1:33:37
  turned to his mom they were sitting next to and said, mom, I love you.
• 1:33:43
  Wow.
• 1:33:46
  That was shocking.
• 1:33:47
  And wow.
• 1:33:48
  She was in tears like an hour.
• 1:33:52
  And I think that was a very much, one of the very much good moments in my life.
• 1:33:58
  And we both had to stay in the car.
• 1:34:01
  I mean, we all had to stay in the car a little bit and I mean, take it, I
• 1:34:06
  mean to take, I mean, to calm down.
• 1:34:09
  We need to, we need to take, take it a really long time.
• 1:34:13
  So the boy just came out from the car, run, run, run.
• 1:34:17
  Meanwhile, our cook and the, the others were looking after the
• 1:34:22
  bags and things, but still moming the car and those still crying.
• 1:34:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:34:28
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: I think there was a, a very big moment.
• 1:34:33
  Yeah.
• 1:34:33
  That's life changing.
• 1:34:35
  I, I've witnessed, so I still, I still remember that.
• 1:34:40
  So since then, yes, if you, if you, if you, that magical moment is like, that
• 1:34:47
  happened to me, but it's, I think this one still sits in my mind so strongly.
• 1:34:54
  So strongly.
• 1:34:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Ghost was such a powerful shaman.
• 1:35:00
  He's now
• 1:35:02
  no
• 1:35:02
  longer with us.
• 1:35:04
  No.
• 1:35:05
  Are there still people up there in that area or other areas of Mongolia?
• 1:35:10
  'cause you are still traveling to all these places.
• 1:35:14
  Are there still some very, very good challenge that you would recommend?
• 1:35:17
  At this point
• 1:35:20
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: there are two, three, yes.
• 1:35:23
  Because this, the shamanism.
• 1:35:27
  Staff is passing all knowledge or spirit to the next one or the student.
• 1:35:37
  Mainly it's relative or father to son, a mother to son.
• 1:35:44
  It's like that.
• 1:35:45
  It's just happening.
• 1:35:47
  Where are the
• 1:35:47
  Rupert Isaacson: areas where you would say, you know, these
• 1:35:51
  handful of really good shams,
• 1:35:57
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: we call it tiger, it's just
• 1:35:59
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:36:00
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: And the Siberian, the forest area, Siberian Post area.
• 1:36:04
  Exactly.
• 1:36:06
  So, there are two places in East and wet, so both of them has
• 1:36:12
  shamans you know, to work with them.
• 1:36:19
  There's good, there are even, you know, the ghost shaman's sister, he, I mean she,
• 1:36:28
  she has all the knowledge and energy and I like to see, to see her sometimes or we
• 1:36:37
  still in contact in in in a phone calling.
• 1:36:42
  And now this, this social media is so strong.
• 1:36:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:36:46
  We send messages through it.
• 1:36:49
  So that was her birthday today.
• 1:36:52
  And I've sent greetings and like that.
• 1:36:55
  So, please send her greeting from
• 1:36:57
  Rupert Isaacson: me too.
• 1:36:59
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Sure, I will.
• 1:37:00
  Yeah, I will definitely.
• 1:37:02
  With I will, I will snapshot this one, please.
• 1:37:06
  Yes.
• 1:37:07
  Whenever we finish it.
• 1:37:09
  So then I'll send it to her.
• 1:37:11
  Look, look, look.
• 1:37:13
  And she still, I mean, she still remembers you, knows you.
• 1:37:17
  'cause when you were there, she was there too.
• 1:37:21
  And assisting because the shaman ceremony of that.
• 1:37:25
  Okay.
• 1:37:25
  So now she took a all the spirits and energy healing from him.
• 1:37:32
  So he le she lives in Ola City, not in the in the mountain anymore.
• 1:37:38
  Okay.
• 1:37:39
  Her kids grown up and he chosen, she chose to leave it here, to live up here.
• 1:37:46
  So, yes, I like Is she practicing her
• 1:37:48
  Rupert Isaacson: healing in, in the city now or up in the tiger?
• 1:37:53
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: It seems it seems she doesn't receive people.
• 1:37:57
  Every single people, she reject rejects people and she likes to do it
• 1:38:03
  both in the mountain and also in the city seems, but she, she would say,
• 1:38:11
  she could say no, she could refuse.
• 1:38:14
  And some of, I mean, some, sometimes I receive requests whether they
• 1:38:20
  want to see very strong Germans not far away from the city.
• 1:38:25
  So I tried to recommend her and were, she refused some of them already.
• 1:38:32
  So that means, but some reasons they're not sure.
• 1:38:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
• 1:38:39
  I mean, I guess, I guess they have to, this is always the, this is always the
• 1:38:43
  risk one takes when one goes to see a shaman and the shaman may say, this
• 1:38:47
  one is not for me, for whatever reason.
• 1:38:50
  But you say that she's living in the city, but she still goes up to the
• 1:38:55
  Yeah.
• 1:38:56
  Cobs school area to be Yes, exactly.
• 1:38:59
  Her people.
• 1:39:00
  Okay.
• 1:39:00
  Yes.
• 1:39:01
  To her
• 1:39:01
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: people.
• 1:39:01
  Summertime mainly.
• 1:39:03
  And yes, the, the east is still, see two of the shamans there.
• 1:39:08
  So one of them got really old even so I respect him and, not
• 1:39:13
  to do, you know, the bigger ceremonies, but smaller ones mm-hmm.
• 1:39:18
  He could handle.
• 1:39:19
  And another person nearby, another family is there.
• 1:39:23
  So very strong.
• 1:39:25
  And I have been working with him so many years originally.
• 1:39:31
  Few of them in that.
• 1:39:32
  And these are also
• 1:39:33
  Rupert Isaacson: reindeer herders?
• 1:39:35
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: One, only one of them is not the others are.
• 1:39:37
  Yes.
• 1:39:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:39:38
  So interesting.
• 1:39:39
  And then you were also saying that you were working, you know, a lot in the
• 1:39:43
  west that earlier in this conversation you said that you had, you know,
• 1:39:47
  met chairmans all over Mongolia.
• 1:39:49
  Of course.
• 1:39:51
  Do you feel that there are other places too where you've met
• 1:39:55
  people who are really strong?
• 1:39:58
  Or do you feel it's really just the tiger region?
• 1:40:03
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, it's a very good question.
• 1:40:06
  I think because it's, I would say sometimes I thought the region helps,
• 1:40:15
  you know, to, to become really strong, powerful shamans, but seems not
• 1:40:22
  necessarily northeast northeast Mongolia, we have very strong channels too.
• 1:40:29
  And Kby, there was one was various and I worked with him.
• 1:40:34
  And I could feel the energy and humbleness is really nice, but at
• 1:40:42
  same time, you know, that's, I could feel that it seems up to the, I mean,
• 1:40:49
  the shaman himself, ourself seems whoever received a powerful spirit.
• 1:40:58
  Yeah.
• 1:40:58
  Or powerful the healing or powerful training seems, it just maybe
• 1:41:06
  depends on him or on her that
• 1:41:09
  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 1:41:11
  But would you, yeah.
• 1:41:12
  Would you, now, if a family were to contact you again and say, I'm looking
• 1:41:17
  for this, would you, would you contact these different healers in the different
• 1:41:21
  regions and see which one says, yes, I think I can help this person?
• 1:41:25
  Or how would you organize it?
• 1:41:27
  Or would you always take them up to the north, to the reindeer people now?
• 1:41:33
  Mm.
• 1:41:34
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: For my, for me to bringing up, bringing the people
• 1:41:38
  over there I always choose, I always choose the northern place because
• 1:41:44
  it's, I have so much, I mean, I used to, and also I know the people a lot.
• 1:41:51
  And I do take care of them and they like to care of me.
• 1:41:55
  So it's, there is a bond.
• 1:41:58
  And and also the same time, the people themselves, they want to go to the
• 1:42:05
  north to see the reindeer place as well.
• 1:42:08
  Reindeer tribe as well.
• 1:42:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:10
  At the same time they want to benefit it.
• 1:42:12
  Yeah.
• 1:42:13
  Rupert Isaacson: So
• 1:42:14
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: just then I couldn't help it to go to the North
• 1:42:18
  Northern Mongolia a lot and lot.
• 1:42:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:42:21
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Even nowadays.
• 1:42:23
  Rupert Isaacson: But if somebody said, I want to go see a shaman in the Gobi,
• 1:42:26
  or I want to see a shaman among the Kazakhs, would you know where to go?
• 1:42:30
  Would you know where to take them?
• 1:42:32
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, I would.
• 1:42:34
  The other thing is it seems they don't know the shamans
• 1:42:38
  exist all over the Mongolia.
• 1:42:40
  Interesting.
• 1:42:40
  I think it'd be one of the one of the things they don't, I mean, Mongolia
• 1:42:45
  is, we don't take the people to, up to the west, south of Mongolia.
• 1:42:53
  The only thing, it's the the shamanism is only in the Northern Mongolia.
• 1:42:58
  It's just because of you.
• 1:43:00
  Okay.
• 1:43:00
  It's just because of the book.
• 1:43:01
  Basically.
• 1:43:03
  The horse boy, the movie after that.
• 1:43:06
  So everyone thinks they are strong shamans.
• 1:43:10
  The shamanism is the Northern Mongolia only.
• 1:43:14
  Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting because I, I certainly never said that
• 1:43:18
  in the book, and I, I think, you know, I was, I was also saying that the
• 1:43:22
  shamans that we saw, you know, on the planes on the step were also very good.
• 1:43:28
  I mean, there is no question that, that ghost was one of the most powerful
• 1:43:33
  healers I have ever encountered in my life, and I've known quite a few.
• 1:43:39
  And obviously the reindeer culture is a very, very special
• 1:43:42
  culture very beautiful culture.
• 1:43:45
  But yes, it's, it's clear that the good healers exist everywhere.
• 1:43:53
  And true.
• 1:43:54
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.
• 1:43:55
  You never mentioned this, only the Western, no.
• 1:43:58
  Northern Mongolia has Germans and you want to go there, but we
• 1:44:02
  did ceremony in Lamber City Yes.
• 1:44:05
  Night s and we, we have seen, we met different feelings on the way Yeah.
• 1:44:12
  Dely, I remember all, all that.
• 1:44:14
  But yes, I think the people got the impression from Yeah, the
• 1:44:18
  boot and also the documentary.
• 1:44:22
  Yeah.
• 1:44:23
  Northern Mongolia has a shamans,
• 1:44:26
  Rupert Isaacson: yes.
• 1:44:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:27
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Okay.
• 1:44:27
  Let's go there.
• 1:44:28
  So this is, this is, I think it's the, I don't think we could change that.
• 1:44:35
  Rupert Isaacson: No.
• 1:44:35
  And, and to be fair that the reindeer people do have an extremely,
• 1:44:39
  extremely effective system of healing.
• 1:44:42
  But yes, just for anyone who's watching this or listening to this in Mongolia,
• 1:44:47
  if you're looking for healing, you can find it in every region.
• 1:44:52
  Yeah.
• 1:44:52
  And it's more about looking for the right healer for your question, for
• 1:45:00
  your dilemma, rather than saying, I must do exactly what Rupert Isaacson did.
• 1:45:06
  Um mm-hmm.
• 1:45:08
  You know, where, 'cause I often, for example, after we went to Sea
• 1:45:14
  Ghost and he said, Rupert, you must do these three more journeys.
• 1:45:18
  Obviously when I went to Africa, to the Bushman, I knew exactly where
• 1:45:21
  to go and who to go to because I knew those people personally.
• 1:45:24
  But when I went to Australia and to the Navajo Reservation, I had no idea.
• 1:45:29
  So I had to ask people, talk to people exactly how I started with Mongolia.
• 1:45:35
  And little by little, a picture comes together where a certain number of people
• 1:45:40
  say, go to this person, go to this place.
• 1:45:45
  And yeah, a aer Okay, now this is the fifth person who's told me this.
• 1:45:50
  What am I feeling in my gut?
• 1:45:52
  Okay, I'm feeling that I need to follow this path.
• 1:45:57
  So then I found my way to these two very good healers, one in the
• 1:46:01
  rainforest area of Australia and one in the Navajo reservation.
• 1:46:05
  And they were also incredibly effective with Rowan.
• 1:46:10
  But I, I, I found out about them through a series of researchers, just like,
• 1:46:16
  that's how I found Ghost was through a series of researchers that equally they
• 1:46:22
  could have taken me in another direction.
• 1:46:24
  Yeah.
• 1:46:25
  Yeah.
• 1:46:25
  And I do think it's good for people to, to know this, to, to not just say,
• 1:46:32
  mm-hmm.
• 1:46:33
  There's only one way.
• 1:46:34
  No, there isn't there.
• 1:46:35
  And the other thing too is that when I came out to Mongolia, by the
• 1:46:41
  time I got there, although I was really hopeful and obviously wanting
• 1:46:47
  Rowan to move past his suffering.
• 1:46:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:54
  I did not want his autism to go away.
• 1:46:57
  I was comfortable and happy with his autism.
• 1:47:01
  And again, this, this difference between healing and cure, it's, it's such a,
• 1:47:12
  an important thing.
• 1:47:14
  I was not expecting any kind of immediate result.
• 1:47:20
  At all.
• 1:47:21
  And in fact, I was very ready for nothing to happen.
• 1:47:28
  And I asked myself, well, what am I gonna do?
• 1:47:31
  What am I gonna say?
• 1:47:33
  What am I gonna think?
• 1:47:34
  What am I gonna feel if I come back from Mongolia and there's no change at all?
• 1:47:39
  And I thought, well, sure.
• 1:47:42
  But then at least I went and had, or we as a family went and had this incredible
• 1:47:49
  adventure because of the autism.
• 1:47:54
  Instead of saying, well, we can't go to somewhere like Mongolia because of the
• 1:47:59
  autism and say, no, it's the autism that's making us go to this incredible place
• 1:48:05
  to meet these incredible people, to have this incredible adventure that perhaps we
• 1:48:10
  would never have done except for autism.
• 1:48:13
  Therefore, autism is giving us this great gift.
• 1:48:17
  Of course, what did happen was the healings that are in the book, and yes,
• 1:48:23
  there was this immediate result with Tommo in the first healing and then a
• 1:48:29
  pretty much immediate result after Ghost.
• 1:48:32
  And I, I worried about that after I published the books.
• 1:48:37
  I thought, oh shit, people are gonna, people are gonna want that.
• 1:48:41
  But at the same time, you have to tell your experience.
• 1:48:44
  So it's very interesting to hear you tell that story.
• 1:48:47
  About the lady from New York saying It's not happening.
• 1:48:50
  It's not happening.
• 1:48:50
  And then of course it happened.
• 1:48:52
  But if there's one thing I think which nature teaches one nature
• 1:48:57
  in the mind, it's patience.
• 1:48:59
  And you know where we started this conversation when I asked you, well,
• 1:49:03
  why are the Mongolian people so kind?
• 1:49:04
  Why are they so patient?
• 1:49:06
  Where is this forgiveness?
• 1:49:07
  Okay, there's the Buddhist aspect, but you also talked about nature.
• 1:49:11
  You said, we have these huge extremes of temperature.
• 1:49:15
  You have to wait for conditions to be right.
• 1:49:19
  There is no choice.
• 1:49:21
  It's bigger than you.
• 1:49:23
  And I do feel that probably everybody that you've taken
• 1:49:29
  on these healing journeys has probably come back with something
• 1:49:34
  of that quality in them.
• 1:49:36
  And I, I do feel that that's a gift that Mongolia gives, is this gift of just
• 1:49:43
  learning how to cool out a little bit.
• 1:49:47
  And if you think about those long, long, long hours and days and days
• 1:49:52
  that we spent together just traveling through to get to these places,
• 1:50:01
  those each step across the step each.
• 1:50:07
  Turn of the wheel, each placement of the horse's hooves
• 1:50:11
  was its own beautiful moment.
• 1:50:14
  I remember so many moments that were just traveling with all of us together
• 1:50:21
  that were so beautiful that were never talked about in the book, because you only
• 1:50:25
  have a certain amount of pages that you, you know, one has to get to the action.
• 1:50:32
  Do, do you, I, I guess this is a real gift that you can give people
• 1:50:36
  in, in the work that you do.
• 1:50:40
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Just remembering, you know, how it seems and remembering the
• 1:50:45
  whole trip, you know, the how we wear the car, you, you described, you know, the
• 1:50:50
  leopard skin car and the pink curtain, and there's a, I think people still talk
• 1:50:58
  about this, you know, now they, that Russian minivan, a minivan is just a
• 1:51:04
  Rupert Isaacson: huge, the pimp mobile.
• 1:51:07
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: They want to ride that car when they come to Mongolia.
• 1:51:11
  It is just in also some people particularly choose
• 1:51:15
  that van to ride, to drive.
• 1:51:19
  It's so interesting, so interesting.
• 1:51:22
  It's always, you know, once when you.
• 1:51:25
  Bring up the Rowan and the, when you talk about the Bo Rowan and Rowan and
• 1:51:31
  even in Mongolia, I mean, there's a lots of people in Mongolia when they
• 1:51:36
  see me and they remembers this horse, the horse boy movie and the story, and
• 1:51:43
  they always ask, they took how's row.
• 1:51:46
  So I wanted, I want to ask you as you've mentioned it before, so I
• 1:51:50
  want to ask the, the stem question.
• 1:51:53
  How is Row doing?
• 1:51:54
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 1:51:55
  Well, if, if we were doing this he's actually with my parents right now in
• 1:52:00
  London, and I'm talking to you from Spain.
• 1:52:03
  And he will be joining me from London in the day after tomorrow.
• 1:52:09
  And so what's Rowan's life now?
• 1:52:11
  Ronan is going to be 24 in a couple of weeks.
• 1:52:15
  He's huge, much bigger than me.
• 1:52:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:52:19
  He yes.
• 1:52:21
  Can he live independently?
• 1:52:22
  Yes, he does.
• 1:52:23
  He in fact, he even sold his house last year to put the money into a trust.
• 1:52:29
  He has two jobs and perhaps a third one starting.
• 1:52:36
  He works at a state park doing, helping with conservation work in Texas.
• 1:52:42
  He also.
• 1:52:45
  Helps to make lunches for low income children after school,
• 1:52:52
  sometimes at a food bank.
• 1:52:54
  And he helps me on trainings with Movement Method and Horse Boy Method, where he
• 1:52:59
  explains what it is to be autistic to parents who are going through this.
• 1:53:05
  And, and he advises them on approaches to take with their children's
• 1:53:09
  education and upbringing and therapies.
• 1:53:12
  And I think he is shortly going to be taking a volunteer job at the San
• 1:53:18
  Antonio Zoo, which is a place he's been going to since he was a little boy.
• 1:53:24
  And he loves very much as a guide for visitors explaining I think
• 1:53:31
  a little bit from a autistic point of view the experience.
• 1:53:36
  And he divides his time between Texas, where in Austin with his, his mom, but
• 1:53:42
  he lives actually most of the week by himself and then also Europe with me.
• 1:53:48
  He goes back and forth.
• 1:53:50
  He travels independently.
• 1:53:52
  He take, he goes and stays in the youth hostels with a backpack
• 1:53:55
  if he wants to go see something or takes the train or whatever.
• 1:54:00
  He still rides when he's with me.
• 1:54:02
  I have a horse for him and he still loves nature as deeply as he ever did,
• 1:54:07
  and he's highly articulate and people can actually find interviews with him
• 1:54:11
  on YouTube if they go on our channel.
• 1:54:14
  And I think we get so often these questions that when he's here, I have
• 1:54:20
  it sort of on the agenda when he's here.
• 1:54:24
  , We're going to do a bunch of filming together where he's gonna talk to camera
• 1:54:27
  and tell people a little bit about what his life is like now, because
• 1:54:31
  obviously so many people want to know.
• 1:54:33
  He always asks about you, he always asks about to.
• 1:54:38
  And yeah, he's been very successful.
• 1:54:42
  And at the same time, he is totally autistic.
• 1:54:45
  At the same time, he knows that he is vulnerable.
• 1:54:49
  He knows that he needs help navigating the world.
• 1:54:54
  He knows that he has to be careful with what people tell him and what he
• 1:55:00
  can believe and what he can't believe.
• 1:55:02
  But because he knows this about himself, he can also come to me or
• 1:55:08
  to his mother or to other people who he trusts and say, okay, how
• 1:55:13
  should I interpret this situation?
• 1:55:16
  And, but you know, he road trips across big chunks of America by himself and
• 1:55:22
  travels around Europe by himself.
• 1:55:24
  And it's, it's, it's absolutely incredible.
• 1:55:26
  And he still has this absolute quality of sweetness of innocence that he always had.
• 1:55:34
  He is,
• 1:55:36
  like many people who are classically autistic, extremely
• 1:55:40
  kind, his ego is very quiet.
• 1:55:44
  And he's, he's, he's a sweet and loving young man.
• 1:55:49
  But what I'm hoping, and this is, we talked about this before we
• 1:55:52
  hit record in a year and a half.
• 1:55:56
  It's going to be the 20 year anniversary of the horse.
• 1:55:58
  Boy, I think we have to try to come back to Mongolia.
• 1:56:02
  I think you and I should talk about this and we should figure out, we
• 1:56:07
  should go again as a fam, the two families, two fathers, two sons.
• 1:56:12
  So maybe talk to Tomo about this and see what Tomo thinks, because now,
• 1:56:18
  now our children are our bosses.
• 1:56:20
  So, I'm sure obviously Tomo will have his own ideas and see,
• 1:56:24
  see what it is we should do.
• 1:56:26
  And if, if we contact ghost sister and see, let's ask her and say,
• 1:56:31
  you know, what do you think?
• 1:56:32
  And then between us.
• 1:56:35
  You know, come up with what it is we should do, where it is we should go.
• 1:56:41
  Is it the same place?
• 1:56:42
  Is it, does it look different?
• 1:56:44
  I'm open.
• 1:56:45
  I think, I think we should absolutely consult with ghost's sister, see
• 1:56:51
  what shes, the spirit world is saying and take it from there.
• 1:56:58
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Wow.
• 1:57:00
  Wow.
• 1:57:00
  What a information.
• 1:57:03
  Yes.
• 1:57:05
  I, I really, I am really happy with making it, you know, the 20th Ann anniversary.
• 1:57:12
  Soon it's coming, you know, 20, 27, I think.
• 1:57:16
  So by the time the, the boys were riding with the same saddles the,
• 1:57:23
  the Rowan was riding with you and the Tom was riding with me.
• 1:57:28
  I don't think, think we could do that again.
• 1:57:33
  No.
• 1:57:33
  That cannot fit.
• 1:57:34
  No, no.
• 1:57:35
  Maybe we take
• 1:57:36
  Rupert Isaacson: camels.
• 1:57:36
  Then we can each take one hump.
• 1:57:38
  Yeah.
• 1:57:38
  Oh,
• 1:57:40
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: that is an idea.
• 1:57:43
  Yes.
• 1:57:43
  I would be very open.
• 1:57:46
  We could, you know, plan it, organize it.
• 1:57:48
  Yeah.
• 1:57:48
  We should try.
• 1:57:49
  We have to try it to, to make it to a reunion.
• 1:57:55
  Yeah.
• 1:57:55
  For the day.
• 1:57:56
  Anniversary.
• 1:57:57
  Yes.
• 1:57:57
  Yeah, they, I would be very happy.
• 1:57:59
  And you mentioned at the Rowan is so sweet and his ego is, there's no ego
• 1:58:08
  and the kind so he's got, it's when you, when we see the autism, things
• 1:58:14
  are, are work things work differently.
• 1:58:16
  Yes.
• 1:58:17
  And they're quite protective, isolated.
• 1:58:20
  Is it the Rowan is because of his a bit of celebrity?
• 1:58:25
  Or why is that?
• 1:58:27
  It's interesting.
• 1:58:28
  It's such a good
• 1:58:29
  Rupert Isaacson: question.
• 1:58:29
  Why is it, you know,
• 1:58:32
  I guess there are many different kinds of autism and so I'm talking
• 1:58:39
  about a very specific personality type, which is Rowan, but it's a
• 1:58:43
  personality type that I encounter often.
• 1:58:47
  So there are, there are some forms of autism where the ego is
• 1:58:50
  quite big, but with Rowan's type of autism, no, it's very quiet.
• 1:58:55
  It's as if for me to have an ego like Rowan's, a quiet ego like
• 1:59:01
  that, I would need 30, 40 years of spiritual practice, you know, and
• 1:59:07
  even then it would be very difficult.
• 1:59:09
  He is born like this well, I dunno if you remember, but in the documentary.
• 1:59:18
  One of the people we spoke to, there was a man called Richard Grinker,
• 1:59:22
  who is an ethno anthropologist, and he talks about shamanism healers in
• 1:59:29
  indigenous communities, often having these neuropsychiatric conditions.
• 1:59:36
  Yeah, they could be epileptic, they could be autistic, they could be have
• 1:59:40
  bipolar, they could be many things and schizophrenic, but it gives them
• 1:59:48
  some sort of emotional sensitivity that they are then able to heal.
• 1:59:55
  And I think Rowan is a little bit like this.
• 1:59:57
  He, it, it, it's very healing to be around him.
• 2:00:02
  He's one of these people who, if he walks into the room, it
• 2:00:09
  makes people behave better.
• 2:00:12
  So, and he's not the only one.
• 2:00:15
  I I know many people like this.
• 2:00:17
  Is it genetic?
• 2:00:18
  Is it spiritual?
• 2:00:19
  Can you separate spirituality from genetics?
• 2:00:21
  No, because spirituality and humans humans are genetics.
• 2:00:25
  So these things are obviously related.
• 2:00:30
  My feeling is that.
• 2:00:32
  People like Rowan are there in human society to help the rest
• 2:00:38
  of us, and they're born this way.
• 2:00:41
  Why are they born this way?
• 2:00:44
  I don't know.
• 2:00:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:00:45
  That is one of the great mysteries.
• 2:00:47
  But we are lucky that they are, because as you said, you know, there
• 2:00:57
  are many people who want to be healers or want to be shamans, but my feeling
• 2:01:03
  is nobody in their right mind would really want to be a shaman or want to
• 2:01:08
  be a healer because it's hard work.
• 2:01:12
  I mean, you can't, you're not, you know, it's, it's, it's, you're
• 2:01:16
  not gonna get rich doing that.
• 2:01:17
  And it's, it's exhausting work and very hard work and so on.
• 2:01:20
  So it's something that either you are or you aren't.
• 2:01:26
  But if you are, it's very, very clear.
• 2:01:30
  And there are some people now, if you're born into a culture like the
• 2:01:36
  reindeer people, let's say Rowan had been born into that culture,
• 2:01:40
  probably he would be a shaman, probably he would be a working shaman.
• 2:01:44
  He would be, he would've been apprentice to somebody like Ghost quite early, and we
• 2:01:50
  would be going to see him in our culture.
• 2:01:55
  He exists, I feel almost in the same type of role that he is
• 2:02:02
  almost professionally himself.
• 2:02:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:07
  As a
• 2:02:07
  way of bringing healing to other people and understanding,
• 2:02:14
  you talked about patience and forgiveness, all of these things.
• 2:02:18
  So clearly in human culture, we need this population of people to
• 2:02:24
  stop us from becoming genis, kahan and turn us into ghost, hopefully.
• 2:02:30
  Or something in between.
• 2:02:31
  Something in between Genghis, Kahan and ghosts enough to make sure the
• 2:02:36
  Russians and the Chinese don't take all of your mineral resources and
• 2:02:40
  flatten the whole country and enough ghosts to be patient and forgive.
• 2:02:49
  And, you know, we are always trying to find that middle way, aren't we?
• 2:02:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:54
  Yes.
• 2:02:55
  Yeah.
• 2:02:59
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, well, I wanted to ask, I I, I always
• 2:03:03
  wanted to ask one thing.
• 2:03:05
  You remember when we were in the GOs plays and, inside Tiping.
• 2:03:11
  Yes.
• 2:03:13
  You, you, we received the permission, I mean, to, to do the filming
• 2:03:19
  Rupert Isaacson: in the
• 2:03:20
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: ceremony and remember the the lights went off.
• 2:03:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 2:03:26
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: What happens there?
• 2:03:27
  What happens there?
• 2:03:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah, why did the lights go off in the filming?
• 2:03:30
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
• 2:03:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:03:33
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Is it because of they, I mean they, I saw them charging.
• 2:03:37
  Is it They didn't charge in enough?
• 2:03:39
  Rupert Isaacson: No.
• 2:03:40
  They charged and if you remember the all the electronic equipment, it failed during
• 2:03:46
  the ceremony and then it came on again.
• 2:03:48
  Yeah.
• 2:03:48
  Boom.
• 2:03:50
  Yeah.
• 2:03:50
  When the ceremony was over.
• 2:03:52
  Why?
• 2:03:53
  Okay.
• 2:03:53
  I've seen this happen many times.
• 2:03:56
  I've seen this happen in Africa and the Kalahari filming or recording
• 2:04:01
  at healings and the healer that will almost always say, yeah, sure,
• 2:04:06
  you can try to record it, but don't be angry if your equipment fails.
• 2:04:12
  Because I guess there is such a huge amount of spiritual activity
• 2:04:18
  and spiritual activity must to some degree, have some electrical
• 2:04:24
  quality because life is electricity.
• 2:04:28
  You know, we all use electricity every day.
• 2:04:30
  We are using it right now to talk to each other.
• 2:04:32
  Yeah.
• 2:04:32
  But neither you nor I.
• 2:04:34
  Nor even a physicist can tell us, mm-hmm what is electricity?
• 2:04:39
  We only know that it exists and we know we can harness it,
• 2:04:42
  but we don't know what it is.
• 2:04:44
  But we know that the whole universe runs on it more or less, and our bodies do,
• 2:04:49
  and our nervous system does and so on.
• 2:04:52
  So I guess when you are, and this is, I'm just guessing, but it, I think
• 2:04:58
  it's an educated guess, is that when a ceremony like this is happening, the
• 2:05:05
  level of electrical magnetic energy is so strong that it can short circuit
• 2:05:13
  temporarily electronic equipment.
• 2:05:16
  And I also think there's a mischievous, humorous aspect to it
• 2:05:22
  because, you know, the longer I'm alive, the more I am convinced.
• 2:05:28
  I think that we live in a conscious universe that consciousness is
• 2:05:32
  not a product of the human brain.
• 2:05:36
  That the human brain is a product of consciousness, and that there
• 2:05:39
  is a wider field of consciousness.
• 2:05:43
  Some people could call it God, some people could call it love, but we know that
• 2:05:51
  so much happens that is outside of our ability to explain, including
• 2:05:57
  normal things like electricity.
• 2:06:01
  So.
• 2:06:02
  Why would there not sometimes also be a slightly mischievous or humorous element
• 2:06:09
  to this, where the spiritual energy that comes with healing also has a little
• 2:06:18
  bit of a sense of humor and, you know, shuts your equipment down at that moment.
• 2:06:25
  Just, just for fun in a way.
• 2:06:28
  You know, I, I, that's what I feel is sort of going on.
• 2:06:31
  Yeah.
• 2:06:33
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: This is one of my behind the scene stories.
• 2:06:37
  I have told quite a few people around me about it and I've
• 2:06:42
  never told you before, so, okay.
• 2:06:45
  I think when, that was a evening when we first met him, and you told him some
• 2:06:53
  stories about the African shamans and him the Rowan and then the GOs shout,
• 2:07:00
  he listened patiently and completely.
• 2:07:05
  Then we asked him permission to do the ceremony for him.
• 2:07:09
  And after a little while, you know, he was explaining to me, yes I felt something
• 2:07:15
  hard was coming to me and like that.
• 2:07:18
  And, then Michael, now he, who was that?
• 2:07:22
  And the stomach running and now it was like quite of, you know, intense in
• 2:07:27
  he had to up and when, when we were before riding, I mean, I remember this,
• 2:07:34
  Rupert Isaacson: when, when, when Michael got that case of terrible stomach upset.
• 2:07:38
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, exactly.
• 2:07:39
  Before
• 2:07:39
  Rupert Isaacson: we rode up the mountain to Sea Ghost.
• 2:07:42
  Yes.
• 2:07:42
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: What was his name?
• 2:07:44
  Sorry, but, but now it's just, I've forgotten some names.
• 2:07:48
  And working with the sounds and Justin,
• 2:07:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Justin was the guy working with the Oh yeah, Justin,
• 2:07:52
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: he saw a white goat in the mountain.
• 2:07:56
  He saw the white IEX
• 2:07:57
  Rupert Isaacson: on the mountain.
• 2:07:57
  That's right.
• 2:07:58
  Yes,
• 2:07:58
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: yes.
• 2:07:58
  Iex.
• 2:07:59
  Exactly.
• 2:07:59
  So, and having said that I, I told the August chairman about it, and
• 2:08:06
  he said nothing, and he smiled.
• 2:08:09
  And then I asked, you know, the, we wanted to film this if we want
• 2:08:16
  if you, if you agree with that.
• 2:08:17
  And he said, yeah, yeah.
• 2:08:19
  I wasn't quite surprised because of it's mainly first they would say no.
• 2:08:26
  There's so many reasons they could say no.
• 2:08:28
  And secondly, I was, maybe he would, I was like waiting, expecting he
• 2:08:35
  would ask for more money or something.
• 2:08:37
  He, no.
• 2:08:38
  Yeah.
• 2:08:40
  And only one thing only one thing he said afterwards.
• 2:08:45
  And then to me it was a gamble to tell you or not to tell you.
• 2:08:52
  So he said, Hey, toga.
• 2:08:53
  During the ceremony there might be the cameras, would, one of
• 2:08:57
  the cameras might be broken.
• 2:09:01
  What?
• 2:09:01
  Broken?
• 2:09:02
  Yeah, completely.
• 2:09:03
  I was like, what?
• 2:09:05
  Because it's, it's one of my, the first few man ceremonies and I didn't know
• 2:09:12
  him so much, and whether he was, you know, threatening me or not was kind
• 2:09:19
  of, you know, the feeling I had and I, I kind of bathed to tell you or not, if,
• 2:09:26
  you know, the cameras would not break.
• 2:09:29
  So what would happen?
• 2:09:32
  So I, I, I, I, I had, you know, that is thinking a lot.
• 2:09:38
  A lot.
• 2:09:38
  And decided not to tell you.
• 2:09:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Because you are saying that he warned you before
• 2:09:43
  the ceremony that this might happen.
• 2:09:44
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, he,
• 2:09:45
  Rupert Isaacson: oh yeah.
• 2:09:45
  But I was ready for it.
• 2:09:47
  I, you know, I was so not surprised because I had been
• 2:09:50
  in this situation before.
• 2:09:52
  Yeah,
• 2:09:52
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.
• 2:09:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
• 2:09:53
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.
• 2:09:53
  So, 'cause you know, you know, very first few experiences and I never had,
• 2:09:58
  I never seen, you know, this kind of failure or, you know, things would happen.
• 2:10:05
  So I didn't believe it.
• 2:10:07
  I mean, for myself I didn't really believe it.
• 2:10:09
  So, I was really, you know, not sure to tell you.
• 2:10:15
  So now, oh yeah, this is one of my behind the scenes story.
• 2:10:18
  It's, it's, so then it happens, then the light went off.
• 2:10:22
  So after the ceremony, he, he, he came up to me and said, Hey,
• 2:10:26
  toga did not tell you face.
• 2:10:30
  So the cameras were expensive.
• 2:10:32
  I only played with the lights.
• 2:10:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
• 2:10:35
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: they were, they were bothering me.
• 2:10:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:10:40
  That's funny.
• 2:10:42
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 2:10:42
  I think he was hilarious.
• 2:10:44
  And also he likes to joke.
• 2:10:47
  Absolute.
• 2:10:49
  So, yes.
• 2:10:50
  Then, you know, I, I didn't tell you from the first place.
• 2:10:54
  So then I, after that, and if I tell you this, you wouldn't believe it.
• 2:11:00
  So by the time I thought, this is why my purchase, so then.
• 2:11:04
  Things went on and on and so much of that, so I completely
• 2:11:09
  forgotten by the time when you left.
• 2:11:12
  I, I, I asked a few other shamans about it and I told the story and then I
• 2:11:19
  realized, oh yes, this thing happened.
• 2:11:22
  This thing happened.
• 2:11:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 2:11:24
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: And another story maybe just a little bit funny or
• 2:11:27
  maybe it related with the the thing.
• 2:11:33
  So we do remember that we, oh yes.
• 2:11:36
  We bought a very good bottle of vodka from only for him.
• 2:11:42
  And then because of you know, we were riding horses and all of a sudden
• 2:11:47
  Michael's the not feeding ha healthy.
• 2:11:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:11:52
  Then
• 2:11:52
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: that evening we had a nice fire going, some
• 2:11:56
  fire going near the river.
• 2:11:58
  It was beautiful.
• 2:11:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 2:11:59
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: So we start drinking.
• 2:12:01
  Then all of a sudden we finished that one.
• 2:12:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:12:06
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: And then I had to send one of our horse guides
• 2:12:10
  to get another one, but he came back with very cheap local one
• 2:12:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh,
• 2:12:14
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: and I thought, oh, it's just better than nothing.
• 2:12:19
  And I came up and.
• 2:12:23
  Since you left.
• 2:12:25
  And I, I gave it to him
• 2:12:29
  and he looked at me and 'cause his eyes were, I mean, not, and not big eyes.
• 2:12:36
  And but he could tell, he could see me so deep.
• 2:12:40
  And then he received it.
• 2:12:43
  He opened it and he pulled it to the glass about the size and 'cause
• 2:12:49
  it just, half of them is gone.
• 2:12:51
  No, before that he he showed me, he turned around in the, he was digging and digging
• 2:12:59
  and he, he brought up a great goose.
• 2:13:03
  A friend of mine gave it to me.
• 2:13:05
  Then he, one of the expensive cognac and whiskeys one after another,
• 2:13:11
  a few, like five, six in a row.
• 2:13:14
  So my little vodka was sitting quite about right.
• 2:13:18
  The, ah,
• 2:13:22
  but if he put them back and, and he pulled the vodka and he
• 2:13:27
  gave it to me and I drank it.
• 2:13:29
  And now I thought I, I was going go to drink it.
• 2:13:32
  He said, you go out and toss it to the northwest.
• 2:13:37
  And I, I went out and toss it.
• 2:13:40
  And then the, in, in that, like, they were like seven or eight.
• 2:13:45
  Man was sitting, having a conversation going in a very, you know, quietly,
• 2:13:52
  but then I could hear that the fire crackling in the stove.
• 2:13:56
  So he then I went, went in and gave it to him.
• 2:14:01
  Get the bottle?
• 2:14:02
  No, the bloodstream in the airport.
• 2:14:04
  It looks small.
• 2:14:05
  And we went 'cause it's Mongolian thing and it has to go around and
• 2:14:10
  everyone has to drink some and 'cause seven hour eight people.
• 2:14:15
  I thought only few, the small bits would come to me and I, yes it did.
• 2:14:21
  And I drug it and he carried on and it came to me like second time, third time.
• 2:14:28
  I was like, what?
• 2:14:29
  Because it's just a small, tiny little bit.
• 2:14:32
  I mean, half, less than a half is in the bottle and this very small amounts
• 2:14:38
  should be, 'cause it's eight people should have been gone, like, before me.
• 2:14:43
  So then, no, it just went three times around then I was quite drunk.
• 2:14:50
  I was really, we didn't drink after that.
• 2:14:53
  So I was quite drunk.
• 2:14:54
  I was like, couldn't, you know, go straight.
• 2:15:00
  And there was, you know, some streams.
• 2:15:02
  I, I dipped myself, my feet in, in there a few times.
• 2:15:08
  And the next day he came next morning, he, he visited us with
• 2:15:16
  hunger, their sister and her son.
• 2:15:20
  And how you, how, how are you feeling this morning?
• 2:15:23
  He smiled and I, I never paid at attention after I told one of the shas so many years
• 2:15:32
  after, like 10, 15 years later, I told this story to one of my German friends.
• 2:15:39
  And he said, Hmm, so he tasted you what?
• 2:15:44
  So did I pass?
• 2:15:47
  Have I, have I passed or not?
• 2:15:49
  So then he said he answered, so what happens afterwards?
• 2:15:54
  So we did our ceremony.
• 2:15:55
  So there you go.
• 2:15:57
  So this was, he tested me before you that I never, I never had this, I never had
• 2:16:07
  a clue even so that was so interesting.
• 2:16:10
  That
• 2:16:10
  Rupert Isaacson: was the night before we did the ceremonies.
• 2:16:13
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
• 2:16:13
  Night before.
• 2:16:14
  Yes.
• 2:16:14
  Yeah,
• 2:16:14
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
• 2:16:15
  Just go back to when the, the, the, the, the, the white IEX on
• 2:16:19
  the mountain when you asked him.
• 2:16:20
  Okay.
• 2:16:21
  Yes.
• 2:16:21
  Did he, did he, what did he say to you again?
• 2:16:24
  'cause I slightly missed that.
• 2:16:25
  You, you asked him, was that you?
• 2:16:28
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
• 2:16:29
  'cause I was marching.
• 2:16:30
  It was him then.
• 2:16:31
  He he said nothing.
• 2:16:33
  Yeah, he smiled and he said, oh yes, the heart was coming and I felt it.
• 2:16:40
  So that was it.
• 2:16:41
  So I said you have this happened and that happens.
• 2:16:43
  The white, white goat, the iex, eh, and he smiled.
• 2:16:49
  That's it.
• 2:16:49
  Yes.
• 2:16:50
  He never mentioned anything else.
• 2:16:51
  I,
• 2:16:51
  Rupert Isaacson: I remember what he said to me when I asked him.
• 2:16:53
  'cause I had to ask him.
• 2:16:54
  He said, he looked at me and he just said, anything can happen on that mountain,
• 2:17:02
  you know?
• 2:17:02
  And thi this quality of mischief.
• 2:17:07
  Yes.
• 2:17:07
  Every really good healer I've ever known has done exactly this.
• 2:17:12
  They always test you.
• 2:17:13
  They, but the testing is done kindly.
• 2:17:16
  It's not done meanly or maliciously like I said, you know?
• 2:17:21
  Yeah, well, like you just said, you know, testing you with that vodka
• 2:17:27
  that magically the vodka just doesn't go down and doesn't go down, and
• 2:17:31
  then suddenly there you are drunk.
• 2:17:33
  It's still a kind way of testing.
• 2:17:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:17:38
  It's not.
• 2:17:40
  Mean, it's not malicious, you're not being heard.
• 2:17:43
  No.
• 2:17:43
  You're just being
• 2:17:46
  Yeah.
• 2:17:47
  Investigated to see how serious are you about your desire for this
• 2:17:53
  healing, and are you willing to
• 2:17:57
  mm-hmm.
• 2:17:57
  Put your energy on
• 2:17:58
  the line as well?
• 2:18:00
  Yeah.
• 2:18:00
  Or are you just coming in to say, I want to get something from you?
• 2:18:04
  It, that it has to be a two-way street.
• 2:18:06
  I, when I was in Africa, this was long before coming to Mongolia
• 2:18:12
  and we were doing ceremonies for the return of the land, for the
• 2:18:17
  Bushman, and they were successful.
• 2:18:20
  The, they got the land back.
• 2:18:22
  They said it'll be a year to the day after this ceremony.
• 2:18:27
  They were wrong.
• 2:18:28
  By one day, it was one year, and one day afterwards, they signed
• 2:18:33
  the largest land claim in African history, so it appeared to work.
• 2:18:39
  However, the ceremony itself, I, I knew this healer very well, Besa, he got
• 2:18:45
  drunk and instead of it being like a prop, you know, a really serious healing
• 2:18:55
  that could last all night, you know, that dancing and praying, it lasted like
• 2:19:06
  20 minutes.
• 2:19:08
  And that was it.
• 2:19:09
  And we had traveled a crazy distance and I'd brought this
• 2:19:13
  other Bushman Heer to come.
• 2:19:15
  And afterwards I asked the leader of the South African Bushman, who
• 2:19:20
  had been the one who had asked me to put this healing together.
• 2:19:26
  This was really surprising.
• 2:19:28
  I wasn't expecting him to just get drunk and treat it so casually like this.
• 2:19:33
  Do you think it worked?
• 2:19:34
  And Rupert said, oh yeah, David, the, the leader of the South African bush was said,
• 2:19:40
  oh yeah, Rupert, you need to understand.
• 2:19:43
  He was showing me myself.
• 2:19:45
  And I said, what do you mean?
• 2:19:46
  He said, well, he was showing me the weaknesses that I have to get through.
• 2:19:49
  I said, what do you mean?
• 2:19:50
  He said, Rupert, I'm an alcoholic.
• 2:19:52
  This is what Dava, the Bushman said.
• 2:19:54
  He said, what the, what Besa was showing me.
• 2:19:57
  He gave me a mirror and said, if you continue like this, you will not make,
• 2:20:03
  no, you will not get the land clear.
• 2:20:05
  You're gonna have to get over this at least for the next year
• 2:20:12
  to see this process through.
• 2:20:14
  And that's what this healing was all about, Rupert.
• 2:20:18
  And I said, oh, okay.
• 2:20:22
  And he said, yeah, no, this is very powerful.
• 2:20:24
  And he said that.
• 2:20:25
  And then he said, yes, a a year from today I'm going to sit down with the president
• 2:20:29
  of South Africa and sign the land claim, which was by no means a certainty.
• 2:20:37
  Hmm.
• 2:20:37
  Well, like I said, he was off by one day.
• 2:20:40
  So this, this process of testing and mischief and humor, it so much seems to be
• 2:20:48
  a part of how the natural world operates.
• 2:20:53
  And you know, what is shamanism, but the natural world, you know?
• 2:20:58
  Yeah.
• 2:20:58
  People talk, say it's supernatural.
• 2:21:01
  Well, it might be, but it's still natural.
• 2:21:04
  If it's supernatural, it's still natural.
• 2:21:07
  It's just a bigger version, a version that we don't understand.
• 2:21:11
  But it's the same, it's the same forces, it's the same processes at work.
• 2:21:18
  And I think, you know, people like you and I were so lucky
• 2:21:21
  to have had these experiences.
• 2:21:23
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Very, very, yes.
• 2:21:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Two city boys.
• 2:21:26
  You know, I was born in London.
• 2:21:28
  You are, you're born in the city in ub, you know, and yet there we are
• 2:21:33
  out on these mountains experience.
• 2:21:35
  Exactly.
• 2:21:36
  Incredible stuff.
• 2:21:39
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, yes.
• 2:21:40
  Since you, you and your family came to Mongolia and quite a few families really
• 2:21:46
  wanted to do that very same journey.
• 2:21:49
  Very same people, very same Germans and some, some, I mean, two, three
• 2:21:57
  families never contact me back, but, most of them, we were in contact
• 2:22:02
  and some of them still in contact.
• 2:22:04
  And when we are sharing what we are doing, how is it doing?
• 2:22:09
  Yeah.
• 2:22:09
  And that, and one of the families from Chicago and there was a
• 2:22:14
  16-year-old boy and he was growing much taller 'cause of his father was
• 2:22:19
  really tall and sisters were taller.
• 2:22:22
  And he was, he was growing much tall.
• 2:22:25
  And also because of like his fitness, he was growing up as
• 2:22:30
  well, his growing bigger as well.
• 2:22:32
  And there was a big worry about one, when, when he's in it looked quite violent
• 2:22:38
  and yes, it seems they were, you know, trying to do anything to stop his growth.
• 2:22:44
  Seems like that.
• 2:22:44
  Like that.
• 2:22:45
  Okay.
• 2:22:45
  And after Mongolia, well, we did, you know, quite a few, quite a lot of, you
• 2:22:50
  know, days of horse riding and walking in the big step in the nature seems,
• 2:22:58
  you know, things were okay with him.
• 2:23:01
  And this is 16-year-old.
• 2:23:04
  He's quite, you know,
• 2:23:05
  Rupert Isaacson: in
• 2:23:06
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: mature himself, but at the same time he's still very dependent
• 2:23:12
  on the family, sisters, mother and father.
• 2:23:16
  And they want it.
• 2:23:18
  You know, they want him very independent, but you know, even with walking, he wants
• 2:23:26
  to touch somebody or hold somebody Yeah.
• 2:23:29
  To, to walk.
• 2:23:31
  This is quite normal for autism.
• 2:23:33
  So, but, you know, they want him, they wanted to him very independent by himself.
• 2:23:40
  But, you know, after Mongolia, he joined his college basketball team, and they
• 2:23:46
  traveled, I think I, I, I don't know whether he played in the, in the team,
• 2:23:52
  but they won one of the tournaments and he, he was one of the team members.
• 2:24:00
  And after the school he went to one of the farms nearby and he lived their, his own.
• 2:24:10
  And he was taking care of animals.
• 2:24:13
  And and they were talking about, you know, reunion in some,
• 2:24:18
  somewhere, somewhere in, somewhere in the city, in the United States.
• 2:24:22
  Maybe, maybe after, after, you know, our reunion, they might
• 2:24:27
  come back to Mongo as well.
• 2:24:29
  I, who knows, maybe.
• 2:24:30
  And it's like that, you know, it's inspire and inspired so many families
• 2:24:36
  and still many parents I would say and
• 2:24:40
  give them hope and, it worked.
• 2:24:42
  Some of them, it worked for this for some of them.
• 2:24:46
  And I really enjoy to see that and some changes.
• 2:24:51
  And it seems, you know, as you know, life changing, isn't it?
• 2:24:55
  Rupert Isaacson: It is life changing.
• 2:24:58
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: I really love, you know, that's things know, especially
• 2:25:02
  after, you know, Mongolia, how we going?
• 2:25:05
  And now I'm always curious about it.
• 2:25:08
  I'm always curious about that.
• 2:25:11
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, I guess we have to do the second, the second journey.
• 2:25:18
  Yeah.
• 2:25:18
  All right.
• 2:25:19
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
• 2:25:20
  Exactly.
• 2:25:20
  I would be very happy to see it.
• 2:25:22
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 2:25:23
  Well, let's,
• 2:25:24
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: yeah,
• 2:25:24
  Rupert Isaacson: let's talk about that.
• 2:25:26
  I think, I think the obvious thing is that if you talk to ghost's sister and Yeah.
• 2:25:37
  Ask her advice
• 2:25:40
  mm-hmm.
• 2:25:40
  From
• 2:25:40
  you.
• 2:25:41
  From me.
• 2:25:42
  Yeah.
• 2:25:43
  What does she think we should do here?
• 2:25:45
  Yeah.
• 2:25:46
  And she will probably go and ask the spirits what they think.
• 2:25:52
  Yeah.
• 2:25:53
  And then.
• 2:25:54
  I guess she'll come back with an answer and that's probably what we'll do.
• 2:25:59
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, exactly.
• 2:26:01
  I'll, yes, I'll talk to her and I'll send you a gratitude and
• 2:26:05
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 2:26:06
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Hello to her and we'll see.
• 2:26:08
  Maybe who knows things
• 2:26:11
  Rupert Isaacson: okay.
• 2:26:12
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Things work.
• 2:26:13
  Things might work.
• 2:26:14
  Who knows?
• 2:26:14
  Yeah.
• 2:26:15
  All right.
• 2:26:15
  I'll be happy with that.
• 2:26:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listeners, viewers I guess stay tuned.
• 2:26:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:26:21
  And we'll tell you Yeah.
• 2:26:23
  Maybe the next time you see Tulga Otgonbaatar and I together will be
• 2:26:27
  traveling once again with our sons.
• 2:26:29
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Once again.
• 2:26:32
  This is, this is so cool.
• 2:26:34
  Yeah.
• 2:26:34
  This is so very nice.
• 2:26:37
  Yeah.
• 2:26:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you so much Tulga Otgonbaatar, for taking the time.
• 2:26:42
  I guess we should leave it here then and say watch this space.
• 2:26:50
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.
• 2:26:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
• 2:26:52
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Definitely, definitely.
• 2:26:54
  It's so nice and pleasure to see you again in talking talking
• 2:27:01
  about this incredible journey.
• 2:27:05
  So excited, you know, wait to see you again.
• 2:27:09
  And you and Robin again.
• 2:27:12
  Earlier to Tomo to was here and now he left.
• 2:27:16
  And he has a son, three old, oh.
• 2:27:19
  Crazy.
• 2:27:19
  He so taller than me.
• 2:27:22
  He is, yes, he is 25.
• 2:27:25
  And yes.
• 2:27:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, maybe
• 2:27:28
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: to, could be
• 2:27:28
  Rupert Isaacson: his son.
• 2:27:30
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Could do.
• 2:27:31
  Yes.
• 2:27:31
  Rupert Isaacson: That would be interesting.
• 2:27:32
  That would be interesting.
• 2:27:32
  Yeah.
• 2:27:32
  That
• 2:27:32
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: could be because he would be like five ish years.
• 2:27:36
  Yeah.
• 2:27:36
  Yeah.
• 2:27:37
  It would be so interesting.
• 2:27:38
  So interesting.
• 2:27:39
  And yes.
• 2:27:40
  It again, once again, this the, the horse Boy story has inspired so many
• 2:27:47
  families, not even, you know, outside of Mongolia, inside of Mongolia too.
• 2:27:53
  So much of, you know, change so much of knowledge in know in Mongolia.
• 2:27:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:28:00
  The people were in spite of lots, a lot and lots.
• 2:28:03
  So, wow.
• 2:28:05
  I'm so proud and glad being a part of this story and so humble too.
• 2:28:14
  Well again, thank you.
• 2:28:15
  Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
• 2:28:16
  Well, thank you.
• 2:28:17
  From the heart.
• 2:28:19
  Yeah.
• 2:28:19
  I will be in touch.
• 2:28:22
  We will make it happen.
• 2:28:26
  Yeah.
• 2:28:27
  Alright.
• 2:28:28
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Alright.
• 2:28:28
  Yes.
• 2:28:29
  It's been so, wow.
• 2:28:31
  We started only five east and now it's, wow.
• 2:28:35
  Three hours already.
• 2:28:37
  So yeah,
• 2:28:41
  so, so, so many stories can share.
• 2:28:44
  I mean, there are a lot of stories still have it, you know, behind the scenes.
• 2:28:48
  Behind the scenes stories.
• 2:28:51
  Well, maybe
• 2:28:51
  Rupert Isaacson: we do another, maybe we do another podcast with
• 2:28:53
  just behind the scenes stories.
• 2:28:55
  Yeah, let's do it.
• 2:28:57
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Cool.
• 2:28:57
  Yes.
• 2:28:57
  That would be amazing.
• 2:28:59
  That would be amazing.
• 2:28:59
  Rupert Isaacson: I, I should probably give you on another call a sort of an update
• 2:29:05
  of exactly how this work has developed.
• 2:29:10
  But yeah, it's alright.
• 2:29:15
  Yeah, yeah.
• 2:29:16
  I, I it from that, from that mountain or that first day outside Lumata.
• 2:29:23
  Now I think we, it's in the hundreds of thousands of, of families that have.
• 2:29:33
  Being helped one way or another, but I don't take personal credit for that.
• 2:29:37
  I honestly do think that the credit lies with Ghoster and the other shamans.
• 2:29:43
  So they were the ones who kicked this off.
• 2:29:47
  So please do tell his sister how grateful I am.
• 2:29:51
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, I will.
• 2:29:53
  I will
• 2:29:54
  Rupert Isaacson: friends be in touch and keep talking.
• 2:29:56
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, keep talking.
• 2:29:57
  All right.
• 2:29:58
  Alright, Michael.
• 2:29:59
  Nice.
• 2:29:59
  Alright.
• 2:30:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:30:01
  Okay.
• 2:30:01
  Tulga Otgonbaatar: Bye-bye.
• 2:30:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.
• 2:30:03
  I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
• 2:30:07
  If you did, please help us to make more.
• 2:30:11
  Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up.
• 2:30:15
  If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson.
• 2:30:21
  com.
• 2:30:21
  And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with.
• 2:30:25
  autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism.
• 2:30:29
  There's a whole range of cool stuff.
• 2:30:32
  Putting a show together like this is not an easy task.
• 2:30:36
  If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page
• 2:30:42
  and showing us some love there.
• 2:30:43
  Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming.
• 2:30:49
  So go to rupertisakson.
• 2:30:51
  com and click on the Patreon link.
• 2:30:55
  Not to mention our excellent merch.
• 2:30:57
  Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool
• 2:31:02
  rock and roll themed merch.
• 2:31:03
  T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.
• 2:31:06
  rupertisatson.
• 2:31:07
  com, it's all there.
• 2:31:08
  I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there.
• 2:31:12
  In the meantime, remember, live free.
• 2:31:17
  Ride free.