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Psychological Fortitude with Dr. Rheeda Walker · Deeply Well with Devi Brown

0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to Deeply Well. This show is a soft place
0:08
Speaker 1: to land on your journey, a space where we explore
0:12
Speaker 1: what it truly means to live well from the inside out,
0:16
Speaker 1: not perfectly, but honestly, with all the complexity, the paradox,
0:22
Speaker 1: the beauty and the wonder of being human. Because in
0:26
Speaker 1: a world that is constantly pulling at us, this is
0:30
Speaker 1: the space to come back to yourself, to your body,
0:34
Speaker 1: your truth, to the practices.
0:36
Speaker 2: That genuinely sustain you, the ones that work when life
0:40
Speaker 2: is actually happening. This show is for the seekers, the creatives,
0:46
Speaker 2: the sensitive ones, for everyone doing the quiet, courageous work
0:52
Speaker 2: of becoming whole. This is Deeply Well. Welcome back to
0:59
Speaker 2: Deeper Well. I'm Debbie Brown. Thank you so much for
1:02
Speaker 2: being here this podcast. Who we are for the complex,
1:07
Speaker 2: the curious, the creative. But we are moving through the
1:12
Speaker 2: layers and I'm really excited to do that. In today's conversation,
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Speaker 2: Today's guest is doctor Rita Walker, a clinical psychologist, award
1:22
Speaker 2: winning professor, and leading scholar whose work has been deeply
1:26
Speaker 2: committed to understanding and supporting black mental health. Doctor Walker
1:32
Speaker 2: has published more than seventy scientific papers exploring African American
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Speaker 2: Mental Health, Suicide Risk, and Emotional Resilience, and is a
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Speaker 2: Fellow of the American Psychological Association.
1:46
Speaker 1: She is also the best.
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Speaker 2: Selling author of The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health
1:51
Speaker 2: and The Unapologetic Workbook, and her newest book, No Racial
1:57
Speaker 2: Elephants in the Therapy Room. It invites us into an
2:01
Speaker 2: important conversation about race culture and what true understanding and
2:06
Speaker 2: healing can look like within the therapeutic space. Her work
2:11
Speaker 2: center is not only on understanding the challenges that we face,
2:15
Speaker 2: but on cultivating what she calls psychological fortitude, giving people
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Speaker 2: practical tools to strengthen their emotional wellbeing and navigate every
2:27
Speaker 2: day life. Her expertise has been featured on Good Morning America,
2:32
Speaker 2: The Breakfast Club, and PR, The New York Times, The
2:36
Speaker 2: Washington Post, and many many more. I am so excited
2:40
Speaker 2: to welcome doctor Rita back to the show. Thank you
2:44
Speaker 2: so much for being here. It is so good to
2:46
Speaker 2: see you.
2:48
Speaker 3: Well, it's great to be here with you, Debbie. I mean,
2:51
Speaker 3: I always enjoy having any opportunity to share space with you.
2:54
Speaker 2: Ah, it is, you know, it's so wild. I think
2:57
Speaker 2: back to when we first connected, which I want to
3:00
Speaker 2: say was in twenty twenty.
3:02
Speaker 1: Either right before or right after the pandemic started.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was maybe right before, I would say the
3:12
Speaker 3: very end of twenty nineteen, because I was referred to
3:18
Speaker 3: you by a third party and I cold emailed you
3:23
Speaker 3: and you were just so gracious and responsive. I'm forever
3:27
Speaker 3: indebted to you.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, no, I mean, come on, what a pleasure.
3:30
Speaker 2: I was so excited when I when you reached out
3:34
Speaker 2: because your book it was so my god relevant. But
3:38
Speaker 2: it's before the big boom happened, where you know, finally
3:43
Speaker 2: therapy and psychology have really become destigmatized and we are
3:47
Speaker 2: doing bigger, more complex, and more nuanced work in that regard.
3:53
Speaker 2: But I remember, as someone that I mean has explored
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Speaker 2: therapy in different modalities for years and years prior to that,
4:02
Speaker 2: when you sent me your book and I read it,
4:05
Speaker 2: I want I think I read it in twenty four hours.
4:07
Speaker 2: Like I was just like, this is so incredible, and
4:10
Speaker 2: I was like, can you send me a couple more.
4:12
Speaker 1: To give to friends? And it was just it was
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Speaker 1: just amazing.
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Speaker 2: And you were such a pioneer and a leader in
4:20
Speaker 2: sharing that type of understanding, most especially for what people
4:27
Speaker 2: of color, for what black people were needing and missing
4:31
Speaker 2: within that industry that at that time was still.
4:36
Speaker 1: You know, so taboo.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it still is in a lot of ways.
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Speaker 3: And it's funny because that's the work that I've been doing.
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Speaker 3: And you know, we were, you know, talking briefly online
4:52
Speaker 3: offline about just assignments, and I truly see myself as
4:57
Speaker 3: someone who is just on Earth, working through one assignment
5:02
Speaker 3: after the other. And I've been in academia for more
5:07
Speaker 3: than twenty years, and so at the point when I
5:10
Speaker 3: wrote the book, I was at my i think third university.
5:13
Speaker 3: I lose track of time, and I'd been investigating mental
5:18
Speaker 3: health crises for African Americans and trying to understand not
5:22
Speaker 3: just crisis, but what makes us resilient, which I actually
5:25
Speaker 3: think is probably the most important part, is what makes
5:28
Speaker 3: us resilient. And you know, the crisis started to tick
5:33
Speaker 3: up for African American children and I was like, somebody
5:38
Speaker 3: needs to be talking about this. Oh my goodness, like
5:40
Speaker 3: we can prevent this. And that's how the book came about,
5:43
Speaker 3: not because I had in mind for you know, many years,
5:46
Speaker 3: to write a book. I had no intention of writing
5:49
Speaker 3: a book, but somebody had to do it. And so
5:51
Speaker 3: that's where I was at that point when our paths crossed.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I'm so curious, doctor Rita, because
5:59
Speaker 2: you know, since your book came out, you know, almost
6:03
Speaker 2: seven years have past, and the whole world has changed.
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Speaker 2: In my god, a multitude of ways, but most of
6:11
Speaker 2: set especially, you know, just the field of psychology, mental health, wellness,
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Speaker 2: well being, Like the big boom has happened, Consciousness has
6:21
Speaker 2: shifted in a lot of ways, but that pendulum has
6:26
Speaker 2: been swinging pretty intensely.
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Speaker 1: Back and forth.
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Speaker 2: So how are you looking at the landscape of kind
6:33
Speaker 2: of collective mental health and well being but also within
6:37
Speaker 2: your field professionally.
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Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because I think that the pendulum
6:43
Speaker 3: may be swinging as much as it is because people
6:45
Speaker 3: are just being reactive to what's happening around them. And
6:50
Speaker 3: so when The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health came out,
6:54
Speaker 3: it was in the middle of the pandemic and people
6:57
Speaker 3: were at home. They were stuck. They were stuck with
6:59
Speaker 3: people in the homes that they maybe didn't like so much,
7:03
Speaker 3: maybe they were the person that they didn't like so much.
7:05
Speaker 3: But people were forced to sit still and grapple with
7:10
Speaker 3: things that they had been avoiding, and psychologically we do
7:15
Speaker 3: a lot of avoidance. Some of it is protective, some
7:18
Speaker 3: of it is so that we can put one foot
7:20
Speaker 3: in front of the other, and some of it is
7:22
Speaker 3: just because we don't have the tools that we need
7:25
Speaker 3: to grapple with whatever might be happening. And so again
7:30
Speaker 3: we see that pendulum because folks are being reactive and
7:35
Speaker 3: I get it, like, we don't change unless we have to,
7:37
Speaker 3: Like that's just human capacity. Unless something forces us, we
7:42
Speaker 3: will just keep doing the same things over and over
7:45
Speaker 3: and over again. And so it's great when we have
7:48
Speaker 3: access to resources. And I think in the African American community,
7:52
Speaker 3: the resource showed up at a time when people were
7:55
Speaker 3: stuck at home and it spoke to them. And that's
7:59
Speaker 3: what's so important to me, you know, not just as
8:02
Speaker 3: a professor, but as a clinical psychologist, is to meet
8:05
Speaker 3: people where they are. That's why I had to introduce
8:08
Speaker 3: psychological fortitude because DEVI, you know, nobody wants to talk
8:12
Speaker 3: about mental health, Like, yeah, mental health isn't it's still
8:17
Speaker 3: a touchy subject. But I do think that when the content,
8:22
Speaker 3: when the information truly speaks to a person, people do
8:26
Speaker 3: want to learn. And I think that's the light of it,
8:29
Speaker 3: that people will receive information if they truly believe it's
8:33
Speaker 3: going to help them to get to a better place.
8:35
Speaker 3: And that's just, you know, what I've seen in wellness.
8:37
Speaker 3: But it's also what I've seen, you know, among African
8:40
Speaker 3: Americans who sometimes still say things like oh that's not
8:44
Speaker 3: for black people, or oh that's for other people, that
8:49
Speaker 3: when there is a readiness and when the information speaks
8:53
Speaker 3: to them, they will grab onto it.
8:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
8:57
Speaker 2: You know, that's so interesting because I think something I
9:01
Speaker 2: think a lot and just kind of observe is the
9:06
Speaker 2: nuance of the discomfort when it comes to this. And
9:11
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people in a mainstream way,
9:17
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of new access to psychology and therapy,
9:21
Speaker 2: a lot of new access to language, to understanding sometimes misuse.
9:26
Speaker 2: But I feel that in a mainstream way, it mostly
9:29
Speaker 2: just tackles life friction, you know, like people feel comfortable
9:34
Speaker 2: speaking out loud about experiences that most of us alive have, like.
9:40
Speaker 1: You know, mild.
9:41
Speaker 2: Forms of depression or grief or anxiety, right stress responses,
9:49
Speaker 2: having you know, understanding chronic pain and how past experiences
9:53
Speaker 2: feed into that. I think we're feeling a lot more
9:56
Speaker 2: comfortable and confident speaking to those elements. But where some
10:01
Speaker 2: of the discomfort and the fear and the rejection I
10:05
Speaker 2: notice starts to come up is when we actually really
10:09
Speaker 2: talk about the deeper parts of what it is to
10:17
Speaker 2: need psychology to be in psychology, when we're talking about
10:20
Speaker 2: mental illness under the umbrella of mental health, when we're
10:24
Speaker 2: talking about personality disorders, when we're talking about you know,
10:29
Speaker 2: real responses like CPTSD, PTSD and things that make it
10:36
Speaker 2: incredibly hard to shift your reality.
10:40
Speaker 1: So just any thoughts on that, well.
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Speaker 3: You know, some of that I have to blame the
10:47
Speaker 3: media because there's so many narratives around mental illness that's
10:54
Speaker 3: associated with not just being crazy, but being out of control,
11:01
Speaker 3: being out of touch with reality. Some of that is true,
11:05
Speaker 3: but then there are nuances that someone who is in
11:08
Speaker 3: crisis isn't always in crisis. So it's the lack of
11:13
Speaker 3: information that gets filled in with the sensationalizing that comes
11:17
Speaker 3: from TV and media and social media and all of
11:23
Speaker 3: those aspects that folks who don't have information, and that's
11:26
Speaker 3: the as you know, overwhelming majority of society doesn't have information,
11:31
Speaker 3: So it does get filled in with misinformation and I'll say,
11:36
Speaker 3: in recent months, I have been mortified, you know, with
11:39
Speaker 3: folks saying things like, well, what does a degree really matter?
11:43
Speaker 3: Or what does certification really matter? Okay, the way I
11:53
Speaker 3: get freaked out, you know by these kinds of conversations,
11:55
Speaker 3: especially as someone who works with folks who have been
11:59
Speaker 3: at times in their life vis suicidal and really need
12:03
Speaker 3: to have someone by their side who knows what they're
12:06
Speaker 3: doing and what not to do, because people can do harm.
12:12
Speaker 3: I took. I took a whole detour there that I
12:14
Speaker 3: didn't I didn't intend to, but.
12:17
Speaker 1: But I but I do. We'll go back there because
12:19
Speaker 1: I do want to investigate that.
12:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I do think you know, when people don't
12:25
Speaker 3: have access to information one and don't understand really very
12:30
Speaker 3: complicated realities, then it gets filled in with nonsense. Unfortunately,
12:36
Speaker 3: it just gets filled in and so you know, the
12:39
Speaker 3: mental health professionals have to do more. You know, we
12:42
Speaker 3: have to be out there talking to people about what's
12:45
Speaker 3: real and what's not and the day the everyday public
12:50
Speaker 3: has to be willing to use critical thinking skills to say,
12:54
Speaker 3: you know what, this sounds like it might be fine
12:56
Speaker 3: for this kind of situation, but maybe I need to
12:59
Speaker 3: investigate for myself from a credible, reputable source so that
13:04
Speaker 3: I can make the best decisions for me and for
13:06
Speaker 3: my family. There is also the last thing I'll say
13:10
Speaker 3: about this is that there is a lack of providers
13:14
Speaker 3: who are culturally informed, you know, who are engaged in
13:19
Speaker 3: providing care that is able to meet a lot of
13:21
Speaker 3: people where they are. I don't know what the solution
13:25
Speaker 3: is to that, to be honest, but you know, having
13:27
Speaker 3: a deficit of providers is also a problem.
13:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting because you know, I think, oh,
13:36
Speaker 2: in so many ways this boom is so helpful to
13:41
Speaker 2: all of us, and in the wrong hands or misused
13:46
Speaker 2: or you know, in unprofessional ways, it's just so incredibly harmful.
13:53
Speaker 2: What do you notice because you know something that you
13:56
Speaker 2: just spoke to that I think is very it's a
13:59
Speaker 2: very relevant conversation happening right now around certification, around degrees,
14:06
Speaker 2: around you know, having the actual training and background in
14:11
Speaker 2: the field versus sharing and supplying advice.
14:15
Speaker 1: Just any thoughts on that.
14:18
Speaker 3: Well know, again, when we don't have enough providers, it
14:23
Speaker 3: can be helpful to be heard, Like so many people
14:27
Speaker 3: just want to be seen and to be heard because
14:31
Speaker 3: there are people who are suffering silently, and that is
14:36
Speaker 3: heartbreaking for me, especially knowing that there are resources out
14:40
Speaker 3: there that can actually be helpful. And so for someone
14:44
Speaker 3: to not feel alone or isolated and to feel like
14:47
Speaker 3: someone sees them, that is there is so much value
14:51
Speaker 3: in that. The difficult part is when folks don't know
14:58
Speaker 3: when some information they may be given is problematic. And
15:03
Speaker 3: I'll connect this to faith settings and I know we're
15:06
Speaker 3: going to jump all around and I know you'll go
15:08
Speaker 3: with me, so it'll be great. Yes, you know, when
15:11
Speaker 3: there are, as an example, pastors and pulpits who will say, like,
15:16
Speaker 3: you don't need to see a mental health professional. You know,
15:18
Speaker 3: God will take care of you, and yes, God provides,
15:22
Speaker 3: but maybe God provides a mental health professional. And so
15:27
Speaker 3: we have to be more intentional, especially people who have platforms.
15:34
Speaker 3: We have to be more intentional about how we take
15:37
Speaker 3: care of the people that we care about. And the
15:40
Speaker 3: people who have platforms have to be careful about who
15:44
Speaker 3: they include on those platforms because you know, individuals, as
15:49
Speaker 3: an example, who are maybe someone who's a strong person
15:52
Speaker 3: of faith who is thinking, you know, well, I'm depressed,
15:57
Speaker 3: so there must be something wrong with me. Why wouldn't
16:00
Speaker 3: God have looked out for me in my depression or
16:04
Speaker 3: in my overwhelming anxiety and worry, So I must not
16:08
Speaker 3: be worthy of life. It's not true, but it happens,
16:14
Speaker 3: and I know for a fact that it happens. And
16:16
Speaker 3: that's one of the reasons why you know, I've written
16:18
Speaker 3: the books that I've written so that people know, if
16:21
Speaker 3: who can get access to the resources, that there is
16:24
Speaker 3: always another perspective. There is a piece of information that
16:27
Speaker 3: is oftentimes missing, that may not be part of the mainstream.
16:31
Speaker 3: It's not sexy or sensational, but it will help.
16:48
Speaker 2: So much of your work centers around psychological fortitude. Can
16:53
Speaker 2: you share with us you know what does that mean
16:56
Speaker 2: and how can one find it?
17:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, psychological fortitude, I just in a nutshell, is the
17:05
Speaker 3: capacity to be able to stay grounded despite what's happening
17:11
Speaker 3: in life. And we know things happen all the time
17:16
Speaker 3: that we have no control over. I unexpectedly needed another
17:21
Speaker 3: car two weeks ago, and the way my psychological fortitude
17:25
Speaker 3: wanted to say romam was not okay because I need
17:29
Speaker 3: a transportation. I needed to be able to function, and
17:32
Speaker 3: so we need to be able to maintain a sense
17:35
Speaker 3: of self to stay grounded despite the things, because we
17:38
Speaker 3: have to be able to function. We have to take
17:40
Speaker 3: care of families, We have to take care of our health.
17:43
Speaker 3: Some of us have chronic illness. You have to remember
17:46
Speaker 3: to take medication. You have to have the peace of mind,
17:50
Speaker 3: or we have to I can't find the word. It
17:53
Speaker 3: got away from you. But we have to be able to,
17:55
Speaker 3: you know, to exercise and have the capacity to do that.
18:00
Speaker 3: For those of us who are dealing with threats, sometimes
18:03
Speaker 3: it work sometimes, you know, just mine in our own business.
18:08
Speaker 3: We have to be able to manage those threats in
18:10
Speaker 3: ways that keep us safe. And most importantly, I think
18:17
Speaker 3: we have to be on the lookout for our divine assignment,
18:21
Speaker 3: Like how is it that we're supposed to be using
18:23
Speaker 3: our gifts and our talents. But if someone is low
18:27
Speaker 3: on psychological fortitude, the first thing that's going to get
18:31
Speaker 3: that's going to fall behind is using gifts and talents
18:34
Speaker 3: because we just don't have the bandwidth for it. And
18:37
Speaker 3: so that's how I conceptualize psychological fortitude. It starts with assessment.
18:42
Speaker 3: So as a psychologist, we train or we work with
18:47
Speaker 3: our PhD students, but we also work with clients and
18:50
Speaker 3: therapists to be able to say, all right, on a
18:53
Speaker 3: zero to ten scale, where are you like? It's just
18:56
Speaker 3: a number, like, it doesn't have to be super sophisticated,
18:59
Speaker 3: don't have to write a boo book. At the point
19:01
Speaker 3: when I realized I needed a car, unexpectedly, I was
19:05
Speaker 3: easily at a four because I didn't have the budget
19:09
Speaker 3: for it, didn't know where to start, didn't know who
19:12
Speaker 3: to talk to, and I just felt overwhelmed. And for
19:15
Speaker 3: about half a day I was just like, I can't
19:17
Speaker 3: do this, I can't do this, I can't do this.
19:19
Speaker 3: But I couldn't stay there because I needed the car,
19:22
Speaker 3: and so I was able to say, Okay, I'm at
19:25
Speaker 3: a four. What do I need? What do I not need?
19:29
Speaker 3: What do I need to say no to? What do
19:31
Speaker 3: I need to just be able to put one foot
19:33
Speaker 3: in front of the other so that I can accomplish
19:35
Speaker 3: this important task. Because oftentimes we create solutions that don't
19:42
Speaker 3: match up with where we are and what we need,
19:46
Speaker 3: and then we wonder why things don't.
19:47
Speaker 2: Work, and so more about that, what does that look
19:51
Speaker 2: like to be coming up with a solution that doesn't
19:55
Speaker 2: actually address those things?
19:58
Speaker 3: Well, h that's a great question. So imagine a scenario
20:02
Speaker 3: where what you really need, like what you really need
20:06
Speaker 3: is to sit down, rest and maybe journal so that
20:14
Speaker 3: you can work through your thoughts, work through the things
20:17
Speaker 3: that are overwhelming, so that you can get a sense of, well,
20:20
Speaker 3: why am I overwhelmed? I was able to say I'm
20:24
Speaker 3: overwhelmed because one I don't have the budget, and two
20:26
Speaker 3: I don't know where to start, so I needed to
20:28
Speaker 3: take a step back and figure out what I needed.
20:31
Speaker 3: I could have said I'm just going to call some
20:34
Speaker 3: friends to hang out. It would have felt good, right,
20:38
Speaker 3: it would have been fun. I have friends that I
20:40
Speaker 3: don't get to see as often as I would like.
20:43
Speaker 3: But that was going to kick the can and potentially
20:46
Speaker 3: create further problems because I need a transportation. I needed
20:49
Speaker 3: the transportation, and so we have to be able to
20:53
Speaker 3: stop assess where we are. I knew I was about
20:57
Speaker 3: it afore. My goal on most days is to go
21:00
Speaker 3: no lower than seven, and so if I'm lower than seven,
21:03
Speaker 3: I know, okay. I need to stop and assess what's
21:08
Speaker 3: happening around me and then figure out what I need
21:11
Speaker 3: instead of doing a knee jerk because some of us
21:13
Speaker 3: have knee jerk things we do right, like go get dessert,
21:18
Speaker 3: which is one of my favorite things to do, you know,
21:20
Speaker 3: but dessert was not going to help me, especially as
21:24
Speaker 3: I'm trying to manage some weight related things right now.
21:27
Speaker 3: And so we can go down a path where we
21:30
Speaker 3: kick the can, where we add to another problem, or
21:34
Speaker 3: we can stop assess and figure out what do I
21:38
Speaker 3: need in this moment and be honest about what we need,
21:42
Speaker 3: regardless of what it might be.
21:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so good, and it's just it's yeah, it's
21:49
Speaker 2: so important to hear that because that's the first thing
21:53
Speaker 2: that goes I think, and especially we're coming into some
21:57
Speaker 2: tough times, like you.
21:58
Speaker 1: Know, like life is hard.
22:01
Speaker 2: It really feels like we're about to be in the
22:03
Speaker 2: depths of a recession and god knows what else. And
22:07
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, in the work that I would do,
22:11
Speaker 2: I would I would call and experience that as like
22:14
Speaker 2: creating space, like needing to slow down and get deeply
22:18
Speaker 2: present in the moment so that you can make the
22:22
Speaker 2: best possible choice from that space of seeing clearly the
22:27
Speaker 2: things that are in front of you, and that is
22:29
Speaker 2: what we all need to be in deep, deep, deep
22:32
Speaker 2: practice with in this moment. Yeah, thank you so much,
22:37
Speaker 2: And I think you know, the idea of psychological fortitude.
22:39
Speaker 2: It's it's a it's something, it's a muscle we have
22:45
Speaker 2: to train. It's it's a part of us that has
22:47
Speaker 2: to be nourished and fed and cared for because it
22:51
Speaker 2: is essential to our survival, to our well being, to
22:57
Speaker 2: our ability to use and share our gifts and and
23:00
Speaker 2: get more out of this life than just challenge. You
23:05
Speaker 2: know something that we kind of talked about at the
23:07
Speaker 2: beginning of this episode. You have spent decades and you
23:11
Speaker 2: are in academia. You're a clinical psychologist. You have worked
23:14
Speaker 2: at five different universities, which it's like, I can't. I
23:20
Speaker 2: love to especially highlight that because in this day and
23:23
Speaker 2: age of influencer culture, even people that come straight out
23:27
Speaker 2: of school, sometimes as.
23:29
Speaker 1: Therapists and psychologists, go.
23:30
Speaker 2: Directly into certain ways of sharing that experience doesn't always
23:36
Speaker 2: support naturally. And so I think in speaking to this
23:41
Speaker 2: range of observation that you've had.
23:44
Speaker 1: This ability to.
23:48
Speaker 2: Weave these thoughts because you're also teaching and receiving feedback
23:52
Speaker 2: from the brains of students, like it's just really powerful
23:56
Speaker 2: and important. So I kind of frame that to say,
23:59
Speaker 2: you have spent decades studying black mental health. What have
24:02
Speaker 2: you come to understand? You know, with all of that
24:05
Speaker 2: depth of knowledge about the emotional and psychological experiences of
24:11
Speaker 2: black people that you feel, you know that a lot
24:15
Speaker 2: of conversations and mental health as an institution doesn't really address.
24:22
Speaker 3: Wow, Dewie, how how many days do we have? I know? Right?
24:31
Speaker 3: You know, the thing that I am always optimistic that
24:37
Speaker 3: both students, undergraduate students, PhD students, and our clients, particularly
24:45
Speaker 3: those who are African American, that they will get is
24:50
Speaker 3: the importance of having a positive sense of oneself as
24:56
Speaker 3: a black person. And you mentioned you know, the universities,
25:00
Speaker 3: they've all been predominantly white institutions where research is at
25:05
Speaker 3: the foreground. Teaching is important. But if I'm not getting
25:08
Speaker 3: research done, then I might not have a job. And
25:12
Speaker 3: so all of these things get to be really very important.
25:15
Speaker 3: And as you might imagine, you know, talking specifically about
25:20
Speaker 3: black mental health and African Americans isn't something that is mainstreamed.
25:25
Speaker 3: It's something I mainstream, but it's not something that's threaded
25:29
Speaker 3: throughout psychology at all. And so it's easy to come
25:34
Speaker 3: to the conclusion that, oh, this is something that's not
25:37
Speaker 3: important or not marginalized. But I appreciate that students who
25:41
Speaker 3: go through my Black Psychology course come to the conclusion
25:44
Speaker 3: that everyone needs to take the course, that it offers
25:48
Speaker 3: a perspective that otherwise is just missing from daily life.
25:53
Speaker 3: And I do believe that part of the reason that
25:55
Speaker 3: we've started to see more crisis and some of our
25:58
Speaker 3: young people, some of our younger children five to eleven,
26:01
Speaker 3: because that's who that suicide rate was starting to go
26:03
Speaker 3: up for when I wrote the first book, that they
26:06
Speaker 3: are losing a sense of self and getting bullied, and
26:11
Speaker 3: bullying is increasing, being bullied and not having a strong
26:16
Speaker 3: sense of self. I'll never forget a university student who
26:19
Speaker 3: said to me, well, why are we talking about Africa
26:23
Speaker 3: or being African? Like, why are we even talking about that?
26:27
Speaker 3: You don't see me sitting around beating a drum. A
26:31
Speaker 3: student said that to me in the past. It was
26:33
Speaker 3: the third week of class. I'm like, well, did you
26:36
Speaker 3: miss the first three weeks? Because we've talked about this,
26:40
Speaker 3: and for a lot of people, and you know, not
26:43
Speaker 3: just university students or individuals who are in the workforce,
26:46
Speaker 3: like a lot of people are not seeing and valuing
26:50
Speaker 3: the importance of what it means to be positive about
26:54
Speaker 3: being a black person because there's so much messaging in
26:58
Speaker 3: our society. There's mint messaging that says, well, you're good
27:02
Speaker 3: for sports and entertainment. But that's that's where it stops.
27:08
Speaker 3: You know. We've had a couple you know, good movies
27:11
Speaker 3: to come out, and then it's like, Okay, great movie,
27:13
Speaker 3: we dress up, we get excited, and then we lose
27:16
Speaker 3: touch of the importance of a positive cultural identity because
27:21
Speaker 3: it gets overridden by so much negativity. And so, you know,
27:25
Speaker 3: it's it's always my hope that folks will start to
27:28
Speaker 3: see the value. I got an email a few months
27:30
Speaker 3: ago from someone who's doing immensely important work in Tennessee,
27:35
Speaker 3: and she said that she read my book and she
27:37
Speaker 3: actually went and visited. She didn't say where, but she
27:40
Speaker 3: was somewhere on the African continent for three weeks. And
27:42
Speaker 3: she said, between the book and that three week experience,
27:45
Speaker 3: her life was changed. And she's doing life changing work
27:50
Speaker 3: in Tennessee. And when we get to a place where
27:53
Speaker 3: we can value all of ourselves, our whole selves, you know,
27:56
Speaker 3: for people of African ancestry, or regardless of what one's
27:59
Speaker 3: cultural identity is, it just so happens that folks who
28:02
Speaker 3: have an African identity are the ones who are most
28:05
Speaker 3: marginalized in society and have to overcome you know, a
28:09
Speaker 3: lot of the messaging that when we can say, well,
28:12
Speaker 3: we can ignore that and say but here's the value,
28:16
Speaker 3: and this is what it means to me to be
28:18
Speaker 3: to be black, or to be African American, or to
28:20
Speaker 3: be of African ancestry, then we can get to a
28:23
Speaker 3: different level of awareness and of connection to our higher power.
28:29
Speaker 3: I am absolutely convinced of it, and my research has
28:32
Speaker 3: shown it so interesting.
28:35
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, when I think about too, you know.
28:39
Speaker 2: Your work in psychological fortitude, and I think so many
28:43
Speaker 2: of us and this may even be part of why
28:46
Speaker 2: some people sometimes have a rejection to therapy or just
28:49
Speaker 2: additional help with how they're feeling.
28:53
Speaker 1: Life will force you to develop.
28:55
Speaker 2: A certain amount of resilience, right, and that can also
28:59
Speaker 2: lean into the territory story of hyperindependence and all these things.
29:02
Speaker 2: But you know, I think for.
29:04
Speaker 1: A lot of us, we pride ourselves.
29:06
Speaker 2: In our emotional resilience, our ability to bounce back, our
29:10
Speaker 2: ability to have had you know, sometimes really significant challenges.
29:15
Speaker 2: But you're still going right, You're still moving forward. I'm curious,
29:20
Speaker 2: you know, from your lens, how do we recognize the
29:24
Speaker 2: difference between what is genuine emotional resilience and psychological fortitude
29:31
Speaker 2: and simply becoming like very good at functioning through pain
29:37
Speaker 2: or looking okay?
29:40
Speaker 1: What are the differences there?
29:43
Speaker 3: You know, I am convinced that a lot of people
29:46
Speaker 3: who kind of push through no matter what, they're tired, like,
29:53
Speaker 3: they are genuinely tired and can access that fatigue. And
30:00
Speaker 3: that's why, you know, the nap ministry I think has
30:03
Speaker 3: been so popular and folk saying you know, I'm I'm
30:06
Speaker 3: just going to go rest. I'm just going to go
30:08
Speaker 3: do that that. Anyone who takes a moment and you
30:12
Speaker 3: ask them, you know, well how tired are you? Are
30:15
Speaker 3: you or are you tired? People are able to very
30:18
Speaker 3: easily say I'm tired. They might even say I'm sick
30:21
Speaker 3: and tired of being tired, you know, because they can
30:24
Speaker 3: tap into their Fanny lou Hamer. And when folks can
30:28
Speaker 3: do that first and then say or answer the question
30:33
Speaker 3: what would happen if I sit down? Like what happens
30:39
Speaker 3: if I stop running? And they can be honest with
30:44
Speaker 3: themselves about what they think will happen because a lot
30:47
Speaker 3: of us don't know because we've been running so much
30:49
Speaker 3: and so fearful about stopping the new idea what would happen.
30:54
Speaker 3: But if they can answer that question for themselves, I
30:56
Speaker 3: think it would be really very enlightening. Because someone who
31:01
Speaker 3: was afraid to stop and sit down, they're probably functioning
31:06
Speaker 3: with a relatively low or maybe we'll get them at
31:08
Speaker 3: about a five, a psychological fortitude of five out of
31:12
Speaker 3: ten at best, because a lot of folks do keep going.
31:17
Speaker 3: They keep going to cover up pain and feelings of
31:22
Speaker 3: being overwhelmed and all of the things that they're afraid
31:25
Speaker 3: to tackle because that's going to overwhelm them even further.
31:29
Speaker 2: Gosh, that's such a good prompt and way to look
31:32
Speaker 2: at it, because that is such a perfect way to
31:35
Speaker 2: investigate within yourself and not in a judgmental way, because like,
31:40
Speaker 2: my god, you're still going, which is incredible given some
31:44
Speaker 2: of our circumstances. But if there is a rejection of
31:49
Speaker 2: slowing down, if there is a deep discomfort or restlessness
31:55
Speaker 2: in like sitting or stopping or not moving quickly or
32:00
Speaker 2: saving someone, that is the piece to look at. There
32:04
Speaker 2: might be the opportunity to really fortify your emotional resilience
32:09
Speaker 2: by also caring for yourself and meeting your needs and
32:13
Speaker 2: investigating and releasing some of your own experiences.
32:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I get it. You know, people
32:23
Speaker 3: who are caregivers, people who are single moms having to
32:29
Speaker 3: manage all the things that that's understandably.
32:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard.
32:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and so you know, I get it. And
32:42
Speaker 3: taking a moment to be honest about assessment. And again,
32:47
Speaker 3: so psychological fortitude is rated first on a zero to
32:51
Speaker 3: ten scale. There's no judgment in a number. That's one
32:54
Speaker 3: of the reasons we use the number like five, it's
32:58
Speaker 3: a five, you know, eight is the eight, two is
33:01
Speaker 3: a two, They're just numbers. And so just taking a
33:05
Speaker 3: moment coming up with the number and being honest about it,
33:09
Speaker 3: because we have to start there in order to say,
33:12
Speaker 3: you know what, maybe I have been burning the candle
33:16
Speaker 3: in ways that I'm not supposed to be burning the candle,
33:18
Speaker 3: or that's making things harder for myself, you know, and
33:22
Speaker 3: for the people that I'm actually trying to take care of.
33:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
33:40
Speaker 2: I want to move into your new book, Doctor Rita,
33:43
Speaker 2: No Racial Elephants in the Therapy Room.
33:47
Speaker 1: I love this title.
33:48
Speaker 2: Please talk to me about it, and I also want
33:51
Speaker 2: to know, you know, what happens when therapists are unwilling
33:55
Speaker 2: or unequipped to really acknowledge the elephants in the room.
33:59
Speaker 1: What is all of that mean?
34:02
Speaker 3: Yes, well, I'm the kind of clinical supervisor. So actually
34:06
Speaker 3: so I will rewind. So I wear a lot of
34:09
Speaker 3: different hats as a university professor, so teaching research, and
34:15
Speaker 3: part of my teaching is training PhD students who are
34:18
Speaker 3: working on their PhDs in clinical psychology. So I'm not
34:23
Speaker 3: in private practice, haven't seen my own direct clients and
34:27
Speaker 3: probably twenty two or twenty three years or so. But
34:30
Speaker 3: with my PhD students, I watch video, I do case
34:35
Speaker 3: conceptualization and case and treatment planning. I've had to go
34:39
Speaker 3: into the room at times live when a therapist is
34:44
Speaker 3: seeing a client who is suicidal. I am licensed to practice,
34:48
Speaker 3: so I'm very well equipped to go into the room,
34:51
Speaker 3: but not maintaining my own practice. And so we've seen
34:56
Speaker 3: over the years a lot of clients who may come
34:58
Speaker 3: from other places and they didn't feel like they were
35:01
Speaker 3: getting the care that they needed. So we oftentimes on
35:05
Speaker 3: every university campus that I've worked on, we have a
35:08
Speaker 3: clinic on campus that is community facing, and so that's
35:12
Speaker 3: important for the audience to know people who are looking
35:15
Speaker 3: for care. As an example, in every major cities, sometimes
35:19
Speaker 3: not major cities, where there is a major university, there
35:22
Speaker 3: is a psychology clinic on that campus that's affiliated with
35:26
Speaker 3: the psychology department where they are providing clinical care on
35:30
Speaker 3: a sliding scale. So those are our climates. Wow, And
35:33
Speaker 3: so a lot of people don't know that. So it's
35:35
Speaker 3: whenever anyone asks me, I'm like, where are you. Oh,
35:37
Speaker 3: that university is there. I know they have a clinic,
35:40
Speaker 3: and so those clinics are providing evidence based care. Unfortunately,
35:48
Speaker 3: and I'll just be honest. In our training programs in
35:51
Speaker 3: clinical psychology in particular, students will take a course like
35:55
Speaker 3: on you know, multicultural therapy. They may or take some
36:00
Speaker 3: courses and ethics and working with people from different ethnic backgrounds,
36:05
Speaker 3: but it's one course, and so there's not a lot
36:08
Speaker 3: that you can learn in one course about the nuances
36:12
Speaker 3: of working with someone who's not white, middle class, you know, Judeo, Christian,
36:19
Speaker 3: et cetera. And so you're given sort of principles ideally,
36:26
Speaker 3: but those principles don't always apply. And so as an example,
36:33
Speaker 3: I one of the things I say in the book is, uh,
36:36
Speaker 3: don't you dare Cry? It's one of my favorite paragraphs
36:38
Speaker 3: that starts don't you Dare Cry? Because I have heard
36:42
Speaker 3: personal stories and heard from clients who had a therapist
36:48
Speaker 3: that they talked to just about how overwhelmed they were
36:52
Speaker 3: as an African American person who is being mistreated on
36:55
Speaker 3: their job and experiencing immense racism to the point where
37:00
Speaker 3: they had to go to therapy and the therapist started crying.
37:06
Speaker 3: And so at that point, a client, not all clients,
37:09
Speaker 3: but some clients will feel compelled to caretake the therapist,
37:13
Speaker 3: who oftentimes as a white woman. Their caretaking the therapist
37:17
Speaker 3: because the therapist is overwhelmed by their life circumstances. The
37:23
Speaker 3: therapist loses credibility at that point. And so some would say, well,
37:30
Speaker 3: you know, I'm having authentic emotion, and yes, I one
37:34
Speaker 3: hundred percent believe in authentic emotion. But at some point,
37:39
Speaker 3: because your client is in so much pain that you're crying,
37:43
Speaker 3: the client is now questioning whether or not you can
37:46
Speaker 3: handle the pain that they are carrying every single day. Wow.
37:53
Speaker 3: And I can't say it any differently other than don't
37:56
Speaker 3: you Dare Cry? And that's not conversation. It's not the
38:01
Speaker 3: kind of conversation that most supervisors are having with their
38:04
Speaker 3: therapists and training. I have all kinds of conversations, you know,
38:08
Speaker 3: with my students and training, you know where we've had supervision.
38:13
Speaker 3: And we had one occasion I talk about this in
38:15
Speaker 3: the book where a client was coming in late regularly. Uh,
38:20
Speaker 3: and the therapist, who was a white woman, you know,
38:22
Speaker 3: felt uncomfortable talking to the client about coming in late.
38:27
Speaker 3: And I said, but you're going to have to talk
38:29
Speaker 3: to her because they're missing out on time and therapy.
38:31
Speaker 3: You can't extend their time. They have to get there
38:34
Speaker 3: on time, so you have the problem solved with them.
38:36
Speaker 3: And so the therapist was really uncomfortable. Well, on another
38:40
Speaker 3: occasion that therapist had call therapy with a black woman,
38:46
Speaker 3: the client was on time and so I said, so
38:53
Speaker 3: the variable here might be you, and so you have
38:57
Speaker 3: to talk to the client about your concern and ask
39:00
Speaker 3: them is it me? Is there something about me? And
39:03
Speaker 3: that gives you pause, like you have to have that conversation.
39:07
Speaker 3: You can't continue to let the clients show up late
39:10
Speaker 3: or hope that it just emerges like that can't happen
39:15
Speaker 3: and so in the book, I talk about all the
39:17
Speaker 3: ways in which I understand that it can be uncomfortable,
39:21
Speaker 3: you know, to talk to clients, but in order to
39:23
Speaker 3: meet that client where they are and to order and
39:25
Speaker 3: to address the reasons they came to therapy, you have
39:29
Speaker 3: to have uncomfortable conversations. Yeah, and therapists have to be
39:33
Speaker 3: able to do that. Many do, but I would argue
39:37
Speaker 3: that a lot resist.
39:43
Speaker 1: Oh, this is so needed. I am so glad you
39:46
Speaker 1: wrote this book.
39:48
Speaker 2: This is so needed, and just yeah, you are always
39:54
Speaker 2: such a strong, strong voice, not just for people like
39:59
Speaker 2: you know, every day people like me that can consume.
40:01
Speaker 1: The work, but to be able to rise for the.
40:04
Speaker 2: Field and lead within the field which is expanding at
40:08
Speaker 2: such a rapid rate, but needs this kind of grounding
40:13
Speaker 2: and depth of understanding to actually have the impact that
40:16
Speaker 2: can change the world and the ways that it needs.
40:18
Speaker 2: Right now, I have to do a part two with
40:22
Speaker 2: you because I still have at least thirty two questions
40:27
Speaker 2: that I want to ask and dive into. But I
40:30
Speaker 2: just want to share with everyone doctor Rita's new book,
40:32
Speaker 2: No Racial Elephants in the Therapy Room linked below. Please
40:37
Speaker 2: check it out, and please check out the book that
40:42
Speaker 2: I really fell in love with that led us Together,
40:46
Speaker 2: which is the Unapologetic Guy to Black Mental Health, which
40:50
Speaker 2: also has a really amazing.
40:51
Speaker 1: Work book, Doctor Ridah.
40:55
Speaker 2: I want to keep going, but we're going to do
40:56
Speaker 2: a part two. At the end of every episode. I
40:59
Speaker 2: all for what you did the first time you came
41:02
Speaker 2: on the show, which everyone, if you haven't heard, I
41:04
Speaker 2: believe it's maybe a five.
41:07
Speaker 1: Year old episode, but it's still.
41:10
Speaker 2: So deeply relevant, so check out check that out in
41:14
Speaker 2: the archives. But in every episode, I asked that the
41:17
Speaker 2: guests share a little homework that we call soul work,
41:22
Speaker 2: something to engage with to really integrate everything that was
41:25
Speaker 2: heard for the week in between our time together. So
41:30
Speaker 2: what is something that you can leave with everyone listening
41:33
Speaker 2: that they can spend time with, can be.
41:35
Speaker 1: A practice, a thought starter, absolutely.
41:38
Speaker 2: Anything that can help really anchor what we talked about.
41:43
Speaker 3: I think probably the most important thing is starting with
41:48
Speaker 3: your psychological fortitude or your PF ratings, especially when things
41:55
Speaker 3: don't go your way. So when there is a situation,
42:00
Speaker 3: a circumstance I don't know, a text, a somebody plicked
42:05
Speaker 3: you off in traffic, I don't know. But whatever the
42:09
Speaker 3: thing is that frustrates you that doesn't go your way.
42:14
Speaker 3: Take a deep breath first, you have to breathe and
42:18
Speaker 3: ask yourself on a zero to ten rating, what is
42:23
Speaker 3: my capacity still to be able to stay grounded and
42:27
Speaker 3: to take care of the things that I'm responsible for
42:29
Speaker 3: being able to do.
42:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, and from there the answers will come.
42:38
Speaker 3: Yeah.
42:38
Speaker 1: We want to need that information. We need it. It's
42:41
Speaker 1: valuable information that benefits us that sometimes can feel scary,
42:46
Speaker 1: so don't judge it.
42:48
Speaker 2: Let it give you the information needed to really benefit
42:53
Speaker 2: where you're at in life right now. Yeah, thank you
42:57
Speaker 2: so much. Everyone, connect with the doctor Rita in this show.
43:00
Speaker 1: Notes of this episode, get the books. And I just
43:04
Speaker 1: can't thank you enough.
43:05
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your work, thank you for
43:08
Speaker 2: who you are as a woman. You know, have the
43:10
Speaker 2: chance to know you personally and you're just filled with
43:13
Speaker 2: integrity and wisdom and light and just beyond.
43:17
Speaker 1: Grateful to you always. Thank you for joining us today.
43:22
Speaker 3: Thank you, Debbie. I really just appreciate the opportunity to
43:24
Speaker 3: be here with you and your audience.
43:27
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week. Everyone now, mis stay.
43:33
Speaker 2: The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
43:37
Speaker 2: and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
43:41
Speaker 2: for personalized medical or mental health guidance, and does not
43:45
Speaker 2: constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
43:50
Speaker 2: to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for
43:54
Speaker 2: any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect
43:59
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44:03
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44:15
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44:18
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