Latest / Mic Drop Comedy / JFK Jr. Was Killed in 1999... Or Was He_ - Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy

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JFK Jr. Was Killed in 1999... Or Was He_ - Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy · Mic Drop Comedy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: John F.
• 0:00
  Speaker 2: Kennedy Jr. was the son of John F. Kennedy, the
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: 35th president of the United States. Tragically, JFK Jr. was
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: killed in a plane crash in 1999.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Or was he? Yes, he was. Of course he was.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: But what if he wasn't?
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: What if he were about to reemerge as the vice
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: president of Donald Trump, who, by the way, is still
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: the president?
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Sound crazy?
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: In fact, it's one of the wilder conspiracies I've heard
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: in my seven years covering Trump rallies. You're probably familiar
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: with my Daily Show segments, Jordan Klepper, Fingers to Pulse, Emmy-nominated, twice, lost, twice,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: where I chat with Trump supporters at rallies.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: We are not a cult. It's an American ideal that
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: we treat women with respect.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: You've got to give me the back of that shirt
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: one more time, that's too much fun.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Trump that bitch! We don't even see the irony in it.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: And if you're into conspiracy theories... And there's nothing that
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: comes close to a Trump rally.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: What's on your back? A Q flag. QAnon.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I'm one of those crazy people.
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: Joseph Biden and Kamala are not legitimate.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Wasn't Q's whole thing that Trump would be reinstated as president?
• 1:10
  Speaker 5: He's never left.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: If you go online, there's a whole list of pedophile symbols.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Yes. It's like Woodstock, except everyone there thinks Jimi Hendrix
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: is a hologram. Normally, when one of these conspiracy theories
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: comes up, I have to respond, then move past it,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: because we're shooting a piece for TV, and we have
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: to stay somewhat focused. But this is a podcast, and
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: we don't have to stay focused at all. So, I'm
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: finally diving into some of the most incredible conspiracy theories
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  Speaker 2: that have been pitched to me at Trump rallies by
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: America's most imaginative minds. This is Jordan Klepper Fingers, The Conspiracy,
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  Speaker 2: an all-new limited series.
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  Speaker 1: Podcast from The Daily Show.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: So, folks, come on down from your grassy knolls, and
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: let's dig in. Let's talk about John F. Kennedy Jr.
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  Speaker 2: But to help me do that, I want to bring
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  Speaker 2: in our first guest, Will Sommer. Will's a politics reporter
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: for the Daily Beast. He's got a book coming out
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  Speaker 2: in February called Trust the Plan, The Rise of QAnon
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: and the Conspiracy that Unhinged America. Will, welcome to Jordan
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Klepper Fingers, The Conspiracy. I'm excited to have you on.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: You are here to help me walk through and understand
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: what is going on in this world of John F.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Kennedy Jr.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: And I will say this, I go out on the
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: road and I start hearing people talking about JFK Jr.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: And initially I'm thinking, oh, they're talking about JFK. There's
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: a long history of conspiracies with JFK. And then I'm
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: putting together that it's JFK Jr. And then I start
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: to see signs up. I start to see bumper stickers
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: that have him as vice presidential candidate to Donald Trump.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: And then a month or so back, I go to
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: a rally in the Midwest, and I'm hearing sweet old
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: grandmothers talk about John F. Kennedy Jr., and I can't
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: make heads or tails of it. Can you set out
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: a little bit of where this began? What do we
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  Speaker 2: need to know?
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Sure. So, I mean, this is really bizarre, as you noted.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, the origins of this are within QAnon. Of course,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: there was this figure Q who was giving these anonymous clues.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: And then at one point in 2018, Q sort of
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: vanished for a month on the forums where the clues
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: came out. And then someone named R shows up and
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: starts saying, you know, all of this is really... about
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: JFK Jr. And so that's kind of where it begins.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: And eventually Q comes back and kind of says like,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: this JFK Jr. stuff is garbage. You know, what have
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: you been tricking all my people? But the JFK Jr.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: stuff really starts there with this idea that JFK Jr.
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  Speaker 3: faked his death to take on the deep state and
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  Speaker 3: help Donald Trump sort of bring about this sort of
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  Speaker 3: QAnon utopia.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: There's a conspiracy inside the conspiracy. It's a conspiracy turducken
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: right now.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly. It's sort of a splinter faction. And you get
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: this situation where like the kind of the mainline QAnon
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  Speaker 3: people will often be like, oh, my God, like, you know,
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: I believe all this Pizzagate stuff. I believe this about
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  Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton. But these JFK Jr. people are embarrassing us.
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  Speaker 3: They just believe totally stupid stuff.
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  Speaker 1: That's the dynamic you want there. We're like, oh, my God.
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  Speaker 2: Can we just go back to serious things like talking
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: about how the Democrats drink baby's blood and all this
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  Speaker 2: JFK Jr.
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  Speaker 3: Stuff?
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  Speaker 2: We're losing credibility, people. We're losing credibility. Put your tinfoil
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  Speaker 2: hats back on and let's march.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, basically, they're saying, you know, these JFK Jr.
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  Speaker 3: people are almost like a government op meant to embarrass QAnon.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: But really, this belief has in JFK Jr. has persisted
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  Speaker 3: ever since.
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  Speaker 2: So what was Ars' intention in this situation? Like initially
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: that JFK Jr., one, is alive. So perhaps he faked
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: his death. And two, he's aligning himself with Donald Trump.
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  Speaker 2: It feels like there's four steps.
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  Speaker 1: There that I'm having a hard time connecting.
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  Speaker 2: Why JFK Jr.? And let's start with why he's alive
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  Speaker 2: and why that should matter.
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  Speaker 3: Sure. So the arc that is presented by R, and
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  Speaker 3: I want to point out here that R is the
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  Speaker 3: letter after Q. And so that's sort of the explanation
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  Speaker 3: for that. Is it or is it, Will?
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  Speaker 2: Your mainstream elitist alphabet says it's the letter after Q,
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  Speaker 2: but only if you're moving forward through time. But that's
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  Speaker 2: a whole other podcast.
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  Speaker 5: Exactly.
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  Speaker 3: So the story that's laid out is that John F. Kennedy,
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  Speaker 3: the father, is killed by the deep state in 1963.
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  Speaker 3: JFK Jr. sees this and says, oh, man, the deep
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  Speaker 3: state might come for me, and I want to get
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  Speaker 3: revenge on them for murdering my father. And so for years,
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  Speaker 3: he builds up this relationship with Donald Trump, you know,
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  Speaker 3: because they were both sort of these New York socialite figures.
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  Speaker 3: There are pictures of them together. And so this is
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: used to suggest that they were like best buddies. Then
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: in this storyline, JFK Jr. fakes his death in this
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  Speaker 3: plane crash to sort of go undercover. and sort of
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  Speaker 3: lay the groundwork for the QAnon journey and eventually emerge.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: For a while, they thought he was going to replace
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Mike Pence in 2020 on the ticket and that he
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  Speaker 3: would sort of kind of help Trump and sort of
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  Speaker 3: get this final revenge on the deep state.
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  Speaker 2: So in this world, they see JFK Jr.
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  Speaker 1: As faking his.
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  Speaker 2: Own death to exist undercover and wait for the right time,
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  Speaker 2: still maintaining a relationship with Donald Trump throughout all of this?
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  Speaker 2: Or did Donald Trump just come about and become sort
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: of an avatar for JFK Jr.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: 's ascension?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, a lot of
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: it is a little contradictory and not super thought out.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: You know, that might surprise you, I know. But basically,
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  Speaker 3: the idea is that, you know, back in the 90s
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  Speaker 3: or the 80s, they kind of cut this deal. And
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: they said, Donald Trump said, man, this stuff is really
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: messed up, you know. And JFK Jr. said, tell me
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  Speaker 3: about it. They shot my dad. And so then they
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  Speaker 3: sort of teamed up, and JFK Jr. went in to
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  Speaker 3: hide it.
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  Speaker 1: Tell me about it. They shot my dad.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right.
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  Speaker 2: This is messed up. Let me run for president a
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  Speaker 2: few decades from now and make this thing happen. You're
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  Speaker 2: helping me connect that circle, if it's a circle. What
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  Speaker 2: I'm confused about, I go out there, JFK. famously not
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  Speaker 2: a Republican.
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  Speaker 3: John F.
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  Speaker 1: Kennedy Jr.
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  Speaker 2: at least from my perspective, New York elite, not political,
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  Speaker 2: but somebody who is a magazine magnate and Seinfeld character,
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  Speaker 2: doesn't exactly match up as the type of person that
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: this often far-right group would align themselves with. Why do
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  Speaker 2: they see this potential in somebody who's so outside of
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  Speaker 2: the norm?
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  Speaker 3: You know, I think that's a great question. What is
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  Speaker 3: the emotional resonance of JFK Jr.? Why is it JFK Jr.
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  Speaker 3: they fixate on rather than another celebrity who died in
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  Speaker 3: the 90s? So I think the answer to it is
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  Speaker 3: that when we think about the QAnon believer, and I
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  Speaker 3: think in particular the people who go for the JFK Jr. stuff,
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  Speaker 3: they're usually baby boomers. And I think the JFK assassination
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  Speaker 3: had a huge sort of emotional impact on them. And
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  Speaker 3: I think also JFK Jr. was sort of seen as
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  Speaker 3: this very like prominent baby boomer, sort of an avatar
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  Speaker 3: of his generation. And so in that way, I think
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  Speaker 3: there is this kind of this very emotional connection to
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  Speaker 3: him in a way that there wouldn't be with another celebrity.
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  Speaker 3: I think also the idea of JFK as like the
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  Speaker 3: last good Democrat is something that has persisted among Republicans
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  Speaker 3: even before QAnon. This idea of kind of this popular
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  Speaker 3: martyred president. And oh, isn't it terrible that, you know,
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  Speaker 3: LBJ in the 60s took being a Democrat into such
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  Speaker 3: an awful direction. So I think JFK himself still has
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  Speaker 3: a lot of resonance with Republicans and QAnon believers. So
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  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of kind of like emotions
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  Speaker 3: tied up in all that.
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  Speaker 2: When you look back on JFK conspiracies, does it seem quaint?
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  Speaker 2: Does it seem sort of like the initial... modern conspiracy
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  Speaker 2: theory that Americans have sort of built a mythos around?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I think obviously we've had conspiracy theories throughout
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  Speaker 3: American history, but the Kennedy assassination is such a sort
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  Speaker 3: of an epical one that I think gets a lot
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  Speaker 3: of people into conspiracy theories and is certainly, I think,
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  Speaker 3: the biggest and the richest one to dive into in
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  Speaker 3: modern history. It also sort of brings everything full circle,
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  Speaker 3: incorporating Kennedy. QAnon is this sort of a super conspiracy
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  Speaker 3: theory or a mega conspiracy theory that where you can
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  Speaker 3: sort of get whatever you want out of it. And
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  Speaker 3: so we see a lot of Kennedy conspiracy theorists drawn
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  Speaker 3: into it. I talked to a guy who was a
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  Speaker 3: really big QAnon leader, and he had for decades been
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  Speaker 3: just like a JFK crank. I mean, he was going
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  Speaker 3: to all these conventions, stuff like that. And then QAnon arrives,
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  Speaker 3: and he says, oh, you know, I can sort of
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  Speaker 3: incorporate my Kennedy beliefs into QAnon and sort of broaden
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  Speaker 3: my worldview and see more of the world explained to
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  Speaker 3: me in that way. So I do think that's an
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  Speaker 3: aspect of it as well.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting.
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  Speaker 2: I think what a lot of people miss is just
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: how fun conspiracies are. They are engaging, especially if you're
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: on a computer, one of the most fun things you
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: can do is go down that rabbit hole and also
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  Speaker 2: come away with something that empowers you because you feel
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  Speaker 2: like you know something somebody else doesn't. I did a
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  Speaker 2: job down in Dallas a decade ago and I was
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: walking through the Grassy Knoll multiple times right there there
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  Speaker 2: in and people would approach you and they would tell
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  Speaker 2: you things that you should know and shouldn't know and
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: so there was it was like a cottage industry for
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: a conspiracy theorist to give small little tours uh take
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  Speaker 2: you to places that they they tell you what what
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  Speaker 2: happened what they're not telling you and it's easy to
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  Speaker 2: get wrapped up in that and you see the people
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  Speaker 2: starting to develop um uh you know, not only mindsets
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  Speaker 2: out of it, but it gives them importance. It gives them,
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  Speaker 2: in some cases, a job, but it makes them important
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  Speaker 2: in that little place. And I start to see that
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  Speaker 2: pop up at some of these Trump rallies that I
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: go to, seeing people who now own part of these
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: little conspiracies, and they become many celebrities at these rallies
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: that we see. In looking at this JFK Jr. coming
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  Speaker 2: back as part of, there's been discussions of his reappearance,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: and there's been groups, one group called Negative 48, who
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: has staged event waiting for his um return can you
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  Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about negative 48.
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  Speaker 3: Sure yeah so negative 48 is a group that is
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: is very convinced that jfk not only jfk jr but
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: but kennedy jfk himself uh and all sorts of sort
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: of a bevy of other beloved deceased celebrities uh are
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: it's not that they're going to come back to life
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  Speaker 3: but they've sort of been in in occlusion they've been
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: in hiding and that they're going to come back and
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  Speaker 3: and sort of usher in this q anon world The
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: reason they're called negative 48 is because they– this is
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: kind of hard to explain to someone who's not really
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  Speaker 3: deep in it. But essentially they believe in this thing
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: called gematria where they assign numerical values to letters and
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: then they derive meaning from that. A equals 1, B
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: equals 2, and so on. But essentially they would say
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: like Jordan Klepper, 20, trust the plan, 20, make America
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: great again, 25. And they just sort of speak in
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: this language that doesn't really make sense to anyone outside
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  Speaker 3: of it. But they see importance in these numbers and
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: in these coincidences. And so from there, they essentially kind
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: of whipped themselves up into believing these things like JFK Jr.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: is coming back.
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  Speaker 2: I found out what Gematria was real quick. One of
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: the rallies I went to, when a woman kind of
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: walked me through this, she brought out a Gematria calculator
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  Speaker 2: and started typing in my name, typing in Trump's name,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: and connecting all sorts of numbers.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: It was wild. It was real fun. You can kind
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: of make anything make sense there.
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  Speaker 2: You type it in the calculator, you get these numbers.
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  Speaker 1: And so Michael Jackson's last concert was This Is It.
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  Speaker 1: It comes to 113. Do you know what that means?
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  Speaker 3: Do you?
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that means.
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  Speaker 3: So 113 means not true.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: So Michael Jackson, that wasn't his last concert.
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  Speaker 3: And he's alive.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: It's not necessarily a conspiratorial thing, although it's used in
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: that sense.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: It's essentially a mathematical way of turning letters into numbers,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and religions have been using this for centuries, just to
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: try to derive meaning, trying to look deeper into biblical
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: texts and what have you. And I thought that was
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: a key component when I talked to this woman, because
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: the way she talked about gematria was beyond, this is
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: a conspiracy, it's fun, I have power because I have knowledge.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: It was also, I'm serving a biblical character. There's religion
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: attached to this. I think that's where the real danger
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: comes here, where you have people who are serving religion
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: and serving God through this fun little weird game that
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: they play. And then deciding that Aaliyah is going to
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: appear alongside Michael Jackson and perhaps JFK Jr.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: All at once. Like Bin Laden with Obama. Clarify who's
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: still alive. Bin Laden?
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: JFK Jr.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Is.
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: JFK Jr.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Is still alive.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: JFK Jr. is still alive. I think JFK Jr. is
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: going to try and expose globalists.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Because they killed his father. We're talking about Tupac's coming back.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Robin Williams is coming back. Aaliyah, as you mentioned, sort
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: of pick your favorite dead celebrity. And so what happened
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: was these folks descended on Dallas where they thought there
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: was going to be sort of the dead celebrities parade.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: And they're milling around and they're seeing like a homeless guy.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: And they're like, I think that's Robin Williams. And then
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh, yeah, that's Robin Williams. And so on.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: And a lot of these guys, I mean, look. I'm
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: not sure these guys are super up on like Tupac,
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: for example. And there's I think that's Tupac, you know,
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: all these guys. I think that's Biggie. And it's sort
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: of this you can see they're sort of going into
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: this world where like nothing bad ever happens. No, no
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: one ever dies of a drug overdose or a suicide.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: The other thing I would add is that they think
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: a lot of dead celebrities were murdered or went into
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: hiding like JFK Jr., faked their deaths because they were
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: going to blow the lid off the cabal. So like
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: the late DJ Avicii, you know, he faked his death.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: All these kind of people just, you know, Whitney Houston. Oh,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: but they're all coming back at this big moment. And
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: you can see these people who have just particularly in
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: this when they were kind of milling around Dallas for months,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: just the amount of their own lives and their own
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: like hearts that they've invested into into it. You know,
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: they're just, you know, headed for a brick wall when
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: eventually they realize none of it's happening.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: It's just predominantly white people who live in a bubble
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: walking around Dallas thinking they see Tupac everywhere.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: It's really, that's Tupac.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Do you really know who Tupac is? And you think
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: that guy's Tupac and Biggie? They are, these are diametrically
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: opposed on many levels, but I bet you're seeing it
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: as the same person who's going into a subway.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Well, they would do these live streams where they would
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: say like, didn't y'all see that dead rapper? Like they
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: wouldn't know any names, you know, and they kind of
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: have this game of telephone to figure it out. I'm
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: not going to be a conspiracist or anything like that,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: but I just watched a movie last week with Robin
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: Williams in it.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: It was called Man of the Year.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Man of the Year.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: And guess what? They had election fraud back then.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: The machines, they were switching to doing it electronically, and
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: they were counting wrong.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Is this a documentary?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: No, it's just a movie.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Are there any lessons we can take from Mork and Mindy? No.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: It should be pointed out, they've pointed to people, specifically
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: JFK Jr., as there's been a man who's gone to
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: multiple rallies, stands behind Donald Trump, and that's JFK Jr.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I went to CPAC, and I saw him there as well,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: and he's taken... selfies, because he's also JFK Jr. So
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: some people aren't just abstract apparitions. They are actually humans
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: that they point to and say, you know, this.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Is who you are.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've actually I was just texting with him. So
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: so his name is is Vincent Fusca. And he is
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: this like Trump super fan in the lead up to
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: in the 2016 election. He had this van kind of
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: festooned with Trump paraphernalia. And so he kind of ends
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: up becoming, because he's a big Trump fan, he's behind
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: him at a lot of rallies. When the JFK Jr.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: stuff starts happening, and this guy, I should say, looks
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: nothing like JFK Jr. He dresses, he wears like a
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: big fedora. He's a very scruffy guy. He wears like
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: a big suit coat.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: To be clear, JFK Jr. was a stylish man.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: And it can only be assumed that that style mixed
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: with privilege and wealth would have led him into the
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: modern era, not choosing to wear a fedora.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, thank you. Yeah, maybe in the 90s, you know,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: but now, no, I don't think so.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, early swing day. Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, he
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: would have had a fedora. There would have been a
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: lot of college kids who wanted to look like JFK Jr.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: who could pull off a fedora, but modern JFK Jr., no,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: no freaking way.
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: No way.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: And so so he's standing behind Trump. And when the
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: JFK Jr. stuff starts happening, people go, oh, my gosh,
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: I think that's JFK Jr. behind Trump. And then there
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: was like a blonde woman nearby. And they said, I
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: think that's JFK Jr. 's wife. And so, I mean,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: they kind of get going. But the wild thing to
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: me about it is this guy doesn't come out and say, hey, guys,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: I'm not JFK Jr.
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: Leave me alone.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: He goes, oh, who's to say? And so I've seen
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: this guy maybe seven or eight times and he'll be
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: at a rally or something and people go, oh, JFK Jr.,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: you know, we want pictures. And then I say to him, hey,
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: you want to tell me about how everyone thinks you're
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: JFK Jr.? You're obviously not. And he goes, oh, I'd
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: love to talk to you later. How about in an hour?
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Let me catch up. I'm just so busy today. But
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I'm in town. You know, you have my number. Let's
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: talk later. Obviously never gets back to me. I talked
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: to this one woman who was like, oh, posing for
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: all these selfies with him. And I said, you know,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: that's not JFK Jr.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: right?
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: And she's like, haven't you ever heard of Hollywood? Haven't
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: you ever heard of visual effects? Haven't you ever heard
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: of Madea? You know, it's, you know, they, I mean,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: they're really deep in it.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Tyler Perry as evidence. It's a, it's a smart move.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: And I, I give Vincent props. I tell you, if
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: somebody stops me on the street and says, Joel McHale,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I love you in community.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I don't correct him. Nope.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Let them think that. Let them live their own reality.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: As Americans, we have every right to live our own reality.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I think it's in the Constitution somewhere.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Somewhere deep.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Now, there's a dark side to some of this, because
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I will say when I talked to the woman who
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: was into gematrium and she was a part of this
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: negative 48 group, they show up in Dallas. They wait
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: in Dallas for JFK Jr.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: To arrive.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: And then they stay there for months and months on end.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And there's stories of families who are losing loved ones
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: to this conspiracy mindset. And people are sending money to
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: the leader, Protzman, I believe. What are some of the
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: dark sides of believing in these weird fantasies?
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, so QAnon, I've talked to so many people
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: who have lost family and friends to QAnon. And when
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: you talk about something as extreme as negative 48, as
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: sort of that faction, I mean, you're talking about people
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: who have essentially given up their lives at this point.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like they've joined kind of like a
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: traveling commune or something. I mean, they're staying in this
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: hotel room for months at a time, which is not cheap.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: They're kind of pooling all their funds. At one point,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: there were a bunch of little toddlers, little kids involved,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: which it's not great for them to be roaming around
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: looking for Tupac or whatever. Um, and I, you know,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: I talked to one guy who, whose wife had, he
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: thought he had a, you know, a totally fine normal marriage.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: And then she just says, Oh yeah, I'm going to
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: go to this Trump rally. Well, as it turned out,
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: she was going to join negative 48 and then just vanishes.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: And you know, he's seeing her in these videos and stuff.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: And he's like, what is happening to my family? There's
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: no evidence she's ever coming back. Uh, you know, all
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: this kind of stuff. I mean, it is really, really
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: grim stuff.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: This is that poor guy i you just you see
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: him at home like my wife she left me for
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: jfk jr it's i get it what a successful man
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: and he's been through a lot you know he's died
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: he's come back He's living as this man, Vincent. He's
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: trying to pull off fedoras in modern times.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: It's difficult.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: It's a bold decision.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I'm glad he's found love, but she's left me alone.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: We're going to pause it right there. We'll be right back.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Jordan Klepper Fingers, The Conspiracy. I want
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: to bring in Professor Joe Uzinski, political scientist and conspiracy
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: theory expert at the University of Miami who followed the
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: JFK Jr. gathering in Dallas.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Joe, welcome.
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So Joe, we got Will Summer here. We've been going
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: down this JFK Jr. wormhole, rabbit hole, whatever hole you
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: want to call it, we're in it. You've looked at
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: what's happening and what continues to happen in Dallas. From
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: your perspective, what's going on down there?
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: So you have people that probably have a bunch of
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: psychological issues. Maybe they're prone to delusions. They're prone to
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: believing things in spite of evidence. And that's what got
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: them to this point.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: And this is fanciful. It's fun for them.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: They're probably enjoying it, but it doesn't shock me to
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: hear the things that Will is talking about. I mean,
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: there are families and I get emails from these families
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: once in a while, you know, the son disappeared or,
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: you know, one family member, got into a conspiracy theory.
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: Now they can't even talk to the person.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: And there isn't much I can say to these families
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: other than I'm not that kind of doctor. I mean,
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: there's nothing I can do for this sort of stuff.
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: And I sympathize and empathize with them, but there isn't
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: much you can do.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: What makes people predisposed to believe conspiracy theories in the
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: first place? Why do they go and seek them out?
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: Well, the answer is going to be a little bit unsatisfying,
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: but this is where we are. And that is that
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: some people more than others have a worldview in which,
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: you know, they go over to the window when they
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: wake up in the morning, they look out and they
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: see stuff and they say, well, that must be caused
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: by a conspiracy, you know, being driven by people who
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: I already don't like. And the question becomes, well, where
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: does that come from? And the answer is, we don't
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: know yet. We just know that it exists and we know.
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: That some people are just really prone to it. So
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: it's not the beliefs themselves. It's not the ideas.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: It's people that have a very thick set of lenses.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: So when they come into contact with these ideas, it's
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: just easy for them to say, yeah, that must be true.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: America, it's not a new thing to believe in conspiracy theories.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: It's not a new thing to have perhaps a warped
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: sense of reality. We are the country that gave you
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: the Salem Witch Trials. We're always looking for weird ways
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: in which to perceive what's happening around us. How serious
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: is the situation we're living in now? Is this an aberration?
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Is this something that social media has, one, created, or two,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: is just reflecting what's already been happening out there and
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: we're blowing it into, or it's overblown our perspective on it?
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I mean, look, as you said, I mean,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: conspiracy theories have been with us throughout American history. Going
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: back to the witch trials, I mean, there's really rich
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: history of it, sort of each kind of big pivot
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: moment in the United States of a conspiracy theory is
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: really abounding. At the same time, I think what's unique
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: about the moment we're in is, number one, social media,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: as you mentioned, which I think helps people with this
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: kind of conspiratorial mindset connect with one another. The way
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: I think of it is, if you think of like
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: the Kennedy assassination, In order to find like-minded people, you
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: would have to maybe print a zine, send letters, go
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: to a convention, stuff like that. And then everyone on
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: your block would be saying, like, you're a nut or whatever.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Whereas now these people can just go online and find
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: like-minded people, reinforce their beliefs, and find new recruits really,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: really easily. The other thing I would say is, at
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: least I think in modern history, we haven't seen this
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: kind of conspiratorial thinking embraced by so many politicians. to
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: the point where we have members of Congress who believe
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: in QAnon and have supported it. Recently, Donald Trump is
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: posting really explicit pro-QAnon videos. So in that way, I
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: think it really helps mainstream these conspiracy theories in a
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: way that we haven't had before.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I love thinking that in the old days, you at
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: least had to learn how to produce a zine. Like
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: there's something to the stereotype of like, well, you had
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to cut out letters and you actually had to build
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: a board and connect it with string here and there.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And it's like, no, literally, there's a certain buy-in that
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: buys you. Now you can do this all online. You
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: don't even have to go to Hobby Lobby to buy
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: the shit. You can do it on your internet. The
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: buy-in is so low. Joe, I wonder, where do you
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: see the threat level of something like this?
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: It's with politicians.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: So to me, I don't think people have changed all
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: that much over time. If anything, we're believing conspiracy theories
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: as much as we did 10, 20, 30 years ago.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: What's different now is not just Trump, but particularly Trump
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: and other people who want to do what Trump has done.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: So when you have people who can act on conspiracy
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: theories with a monopoly of authoritative force, when you have
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: people who already have large audiences because they're politicians transmitting
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: these things, that's going to reach a lot of people
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: and it's going to influence a lot of people. Like
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: any of us could go on to social media and
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: spurt out whatever stupid conspiracy theory we want. It doesn't
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: mean anyone's going to pay attention, right? It doesn't mean
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: anyone's going to care or even look at it. But
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: if Trump does it, that's a very different ballgame, right?
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: And when you have people who have political power engaging
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: in this, that's incredibly dangerous. And if you look back
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: through history, the times where we have the worst episodes
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: of conspiracy theorizing, it's usually because of politicians getting involved
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: and acting on it in some way.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Is it possible to put these ideas back in a box?
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Can you roll this back?
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: I recently was out talking to people about the election
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: and election deniers. And so much is based on this
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: idea of as soon as you have doubt and you
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: see it through a lens of doubt and mistrust everywhere,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: It almost doesn't matter what's going to happen in the
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: next election. You're going to see it. It's going to
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: be there. Are we already hardwired these brains to see
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: and distrust so many things that there will not be
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: a turning back, that even though somebody like Donald Trump
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: might wield so much power and be able to direct
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: it in certain ways, that we've sort of already infected
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: a generation with this mindset?
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: Well, there's already people who think that no matter what, right?
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: After any election, there's about 20% to 30% of the
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: country who think it was rigged.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: Because they lost.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: In politics as in sports, who complains after the football game?
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: It's the losing team.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: That's normal after every election. What's abnormal right now is
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: that you have the losing candidate saying, it was rigged,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: I was cheated, and going on and on and on
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: about it, and pulling in the whole of the conservative
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: media and lots of allies in Congress. Now you have
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: sort of a full court press of people saying, it's rigged,
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: it's rigged, it's rigged.
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: So that's why you have.
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: Between 60 and 80% of Republicans saying 2020 was rigged
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: against them, rather than the normal 30, 40, 50% that
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: might have otherwise said it was rigged, just for the
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: fact that they lost.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: How close are we to having 60 or 80% of
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: the GOP believe JFK Jr.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Is coming back? Is that weeks or months away?
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: I think that would be a tougher one to pull off.
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: I mean, Trump has a lot of influence.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: So if he got behind a conspiracy theory repeatedly for
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: a long period of time, he could make people buy in.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: And if it's something like election fraud, he can pull
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: that off because those ideas are always around. But sometimes
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: you'll come out with conspiracy theories that just don't influence anyone.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not aware of a lot.
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: Of Ted Cruz's dad kill JFK.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: Truthers out there, even though he pushed that, you know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: six or seven years ago. I mean, it just didn't
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: take off. But I think if you go after ideas
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: that people are sort of already inclined towards, I mean,
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: he can do.
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: A lot of damage that way.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think we are all inclined to the
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: idea of wanting Aaliyah to be back in our lives again.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: We want another classic album. We want that redemption. I
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: think that's on the cusp. If he even nudges us
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: in that direction, I think we all buy tickets immediately
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: to the next concert, whether or not she appears or not.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: I mean, we think that QAnon stuff is wacky and
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: crazy and where do people come up with these ideas?
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: But, I mean, we lived through the 80s.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, there was massive satanic panics during that time.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: Satan was everywhere. And even Oliver Stone's JFK movie, which was,
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: you know, a popular movie, was about the pedophile deep
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: state going after the president of the United States. I mean,
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: Joe Pesci played the defrocked pedophile priest. So even the
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: basic idea behind QAnon is not new. I mean, all
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: of this stuff is recycled and rehashed, and it's largely
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: the same people believing the same stuff, sort of a
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: choose-your-own-adventure-madlib book that they're just replaying over and over again.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I think QAnon has a political valence to it as well,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: You look at the pictures from January 6th, all the
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: people who were there who were convinced that this was
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: going to be kind of this big, like kind of
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: fascist moment where the dreams were going to come true.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: And certainly, I mean, I think it's unique in that
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: it has achieved such mainstream prevalence within the Republican Party.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, we're talking about election denial, stuff like that.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: In many ways, I think QAnon is kind of an
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: easy thing to talk about because you can kind of
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: get a handle on it. It's people holding cues and
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: stuff like that. But a lot of these ideas that
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: are core to QAnon have become, are kind of swirling
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: around the GOP and have become much more successful in
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: without the Q label attached. So we think about, for example,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: this idea that, you know, talking about gay people existing
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: in a school is part of a pedophile groomer plot.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: And so we can see these things really being weaponized
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: into policy in a, you know, I think a really
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: ominous way.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I want to talk about how this is covered. You know,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: obviously there are elements of conspiracy theories that belong in
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: the news that become news. Um, What do you think
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: the role should be for journalists in coming to some
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: of these fringe beliefs? Is it giving too much air
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: to follow some of these JFK Jr. ideas and put
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: them up on a pedestal so people can see those
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: ideas and have that air out? Or what you're talking
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: about right now, because this is affecting our culture, do
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: they need to be more vigilant and bring this to
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: the forefront so we can engage with them, we can
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: knock them down, or at least be aware that they're
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: out there?
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Sure. I mean, I think it's a complicated one for me.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: You know, you certainly don't want to just go find
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: a couple of nuts online and say like, oh, these
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: guys are so crazy. For me, it's when it starts
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: crossing over into the real world. I mean, we've had
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: QAnon believers murdering people. We had a QAnon guy murder
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: his wife. In 2018, a QAnon guy shut down a
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: bridge near the Hoover Dam. He had a bunch of guns.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: That was at the point where I was like, this
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: is not just an online thing anymore. This is something
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: where I have to trust my readers enough, both as
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: an audience and as citizens, that they deserve to know
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: what's going on in the world. And You know, I
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: do think that idea of amplification is a relevant one.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: But at the point where you have Donald Trump saying, like,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: check out this Q stuff, you know, I think the
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: cow is out of the barn. And I would add
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: in the case of JFK Jr., I mean, one of these,
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: maybe he's kind of the evil JFK Jr.
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: Impersonator.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: There's another guy who's put together a coalition that is going,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: that has people running to control elections in battleground states,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: who's the JFK Jr.
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: Impersonator.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: They're the Republican nominee. So really, I mean, this is
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: stuff that is going to have really, I think, really
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: concrete impact on our lives, unfortunately.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: That was one of the details when I talked to
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: the Gematria woman. The talk of the rally at that
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: point was not that this was just a person who
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: believed this wild thing, but it was a person who
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: was in Dallas who had a strong following on places
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: like Telegram. And the talk was that they had a
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: relationship with the Trump campaign, that a lot of these
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: people from negative 48 were also.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Setting up chairs.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: And the fact that they would show up and try
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: to help the campaign get set up at the rallies,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: they would get certain VIP passes. And this is not
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: just a fringe thing that exists outside some of the campaigns.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: In some ways, they're also working and coordinating within them.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: It's becoming folded into it.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: There is sort of this tension with the Trump campaign
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: where they seem to see these people as what they are,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: which is huge Trump superfans. And Trump is kind of
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: constantly signaling to QAnon believers. But at the same time,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: they don't want the average person to see a bunch
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: of Q stuff at the rallies. So we see the
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: negative 48 people doing the QAnon symbols and stuff at
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: the rallies. And they're being told, you know, don't do that,
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: what have you. But there's kind of this pull, this
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: back and forth.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And Trump doesn't understand it. It's so complicated. It's so
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: above him. There was some Onion headline that I think
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: nailed it that was essentially Trump half-assing his support of QAnon. Like, yeah,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I guess the Democrats eat babies or whatever the hell
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: it is you guys think.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: You can feel him like.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: If this makes you like me more, sure, but I
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: can't even begin to.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Wrap my head around what you guys think is going on.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Joe, I'm wondering what you think the proper response from
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: the media would be in covering these types of stories.
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: That's a really tough question.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: I'll tell you, when I started studying the topic about
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: 15 years ago, there was barely any coverage of conspiracy
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: theories in the mainstream news.
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: So I started a Google Alert.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: Back then.
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: So every night I would get all the articles that
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: had the term conspiracy theory in it. And back then
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: I was getting four or five articles a day and
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: none on the weekends. And at the end of 2015,
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: that had jumped to a hundred a day, every day.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: And just, this is anecdotal, but just for myself, I
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: think I took close to 300 interviews in 2020 alone.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: So almost every journalist was calling me when they were
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: writing about it and they were all writing about.
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: It quite a bit.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: And then I think what happened shortly after 2016 is
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: that a lot of major news outlets started getting their
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: own misinformation, conspiracy theory, social media news desks. So they
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: now have dedicated reporters just covering this topic. So it's
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: going to continue to get a lot of attention. I
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: don't know what the effect of the coverage is. I mean,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: I think that some things went wrong in 2020. I
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: think there were a lot of journalists that had sort
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: of a panic over conspiracy theories and misinformation. And the
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: headlines sort of got into their own echo chamber. It
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: was like Q is taking over the world and it's
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: the biggest thing ever. And, you know, as I was
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: polling on it, I was like, I'm just not getting
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: these massive numbers. It's there, it exists, and they have
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: a presence online. But I think Will was one of
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: the few people who was in journalism who was saying,
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: you know, maybe it's not as big as some of
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: the fantastic headlines are saying it is.
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: So I think in some ways.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: some of the sensationalistic reporting got ahead of itself.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Will, give us a little perspective here, not only on
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: the QAnon movement as to where it is now, but
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: even looking at something like this JFK Jr.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Theory, the negative 48 group.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: How big is it actually, and how much of an
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: effect does it have on the conversation?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: So I've actually got some polls right in front of
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: me for just this moment. So yeah, okay. So now
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: these polls are a little out of date, and Joe
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: does some great polling on this, and I think he
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: has newer numbers. But the difficulty of nailing down QAnon
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: belief is– there's a couple things. Number one, a lot
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: of times people are going to say they may believe
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: some of the tenets of it, but they're not on
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: the forum saying where we go when we go all,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: stuff like that. At the same time, we have to
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: realize that at the end of 2020, Q– basically told
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: the fans the brand had become too damaged and to
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: stop saying QQQ and just to sort of use the
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: talking points. And so there is going to be an amount,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: I think, of people who are kind of downplaying it.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: There's a March 2021 poll of 5,000 people that found
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: that 15% of them believe Satan worshiping pedophiles run a
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: global child sex operation. We got 2,000 people in January 2021.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: that found 15% believe that Trump was at war with
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: these Hollywood pedophiles. And now when you start asking about QAnon,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: the numbers get a little lower. You're talking to like
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: three to 7%, but still we're talking about millions of people.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: That's more popular than some religions in the United States.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: So, you know, it, it, Don't shit on the Quakers.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Why do you got to shit on the Quakers? I
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: know what you're getting at there. I can read between
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: the lines. They're a good, peaceful group of people. Stop
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: shitting on the Quakers. Don't come on my podcast and
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: make all this anti-Quaker attacks.
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: They had a hard time getting people into the whatever
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: they call.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: It, community room.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: But they're working hard on this, okay?
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Continue, but leave the Quakers out of your mouth.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Just getting wrecked by QAnon. Yeah, they're getting blown out. So, yeah,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: when you start talking about that, at the same time,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, the JFK Jr. people are kind of a
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: faction of that, and then we get down to the
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: negative 48 group, which is smaller than that. So I
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: would say negative 48, I think, has tens of thousands
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: of Telegram subscribers. I think when we think about hardcore fans,
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: we're probably talking a couple thousand.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: It's actually interesting to see. Joe, where do you see
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: They're the hardcore fans, the people who show up at
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: the events, who are posting most of that information. But
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: there's that secondary element, too, of when it just becomes
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: a brand. I go to some of these events and
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I see people wearing Q paraphernalia.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Q's back!
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: And there's Q shit everywhere!
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, the online conspiracy following a mysterious character known as
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Q was more popular than ever.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Is that a Q?
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Are you a Q supporter?
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Certainly. Some people I talk to, they're wearing that just
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: because they understand that it's trolling behavior, that it's a
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: brand they can put on their body, it's going to
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: piss off the media, it's going to get attention from
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: the people they want to get attention with, and they
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: may not even know the tenets of what Q is,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: but they do know that it's something that they support
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: in theory because in their mind the support is just trolling.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Is that dangerous? Is that sort of a.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Is it the evolution of a conspiracy theory that when
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: it just becomes Pepsi that we're... We're in for a
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: world of hurt.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Where do you see that, Joe?
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: Well, we're sort of calling everything QAnon now, right? And
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: if you go back to the idea that QAnon adopted
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: a lot of ideas that pre-existed QAnon, then it's not
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: quite as disturbing. So between 2019 and more recently, depending
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: on how you ask the question, if you're just doing
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: direct questions, are you a believer in QAnon? Do you
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: follow QAnon? We're getting between 5% and 12%, which makes
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: it one of the least believed and followed things that
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: I poll on. I mean, to put that in perspective,
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: we just say, do you think there was a conspiracy
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: to kill Kennedy in 1963? We're getting between 50 and 60%.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: So QAnon isn't all that huge. But Will's exactly right.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: When we ask on these more general ideas, like are
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: teachers grooming kids to become trans? Are there satanic cults
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: doing massive satanic rituals across the country? Our elites running
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: sex trafficking rings were getting between 20 and 35 percent. Now,
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't call those ideas Q ideas. I mean, QAnon
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: adopts them. but they could have existed decades ago. And
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: some of those ideas sort of have their origin thousands
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: of years ago.
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: So they've been around. And I just don't want to attribute.
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: Them to Q because then it says like, oh, this
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: guy was able to convince 30% of the country that
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: elites are running sex trafficking rings when, in fact, those
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: ideas exist.
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: You know, might've been around well before that. It's just,
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: we weren't paying attention.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: You know, even back during the satanic panic of the 80s,
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: there were very few polls taken of how many people
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: were buying in to this idea of satanic cults running around.
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: And I've only found one poll and it.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Was of Texas.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: So you have to keep that in mind, but it
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: was 80% of people at the end of the 80s
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: thought that, you know, one of the major problems in
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: the country was satanic cults going around abusing people So
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: I don't know how well that might have been believed in,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: you know, some other state, um, at the time, but,
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: but right now we're trying to pull on all these
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: things and it's just, we don't have good comparisons to
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: the past.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: You know, one thing I would note there is that
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: there's something unique about QAnon in comparison to some of
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: these other conspiracy theories. If you're talking about, uh, like
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: the thingy, the Kennedy assassination was, was, was a conspiracy
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: theory or, uh, the moon landing was fake. Well, there's
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: kind of not a lot you can personally do about it.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: In the case of QAnon, there's kind of this, there's
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: sort of a fascist utopia at the core of it.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: And that there are places that we are going to
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: go terrorize these satanic pedophiles. So there is kind of
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: like a way that people can participate in it, that
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: I think it makes it more dangerous than, you know,
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: believing that, again, the moon landing was fake or something
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's a game. There's a group identity, right?
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: So a lot of people believe Kennedy was killed by
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: a conspiracy, but they're not friends, they don't consider themselves
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: to be part of a group or a movement, right?
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: But QAnon, a lot of those people do, like they
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: are doing something together, they're following along, they're solving the clues,
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: they're expecting an outcome in a shared way. And that's
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: something that most conspiracy theories don't really have. And that's
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: why QAnon has always been very hard to define, right?
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Because it's sort of cultish, but not really a cult.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: It's a group, but sort of decentralized. It's got a
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: lot of conspiracy theories in it. So it's not just
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: a conspiracy theory. And it's got sort of activities that
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: people can do to sort of be a part of
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: it and play along that other conspiracy theories just don't have.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: I do love thinking of it like activities. It's like
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: we get to get together. We get to solve why
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Tom Hanks is. drinking baby blood. It's like just a
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: bunch of little encyclopedia browns running around America.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: It's funny you say that. I mean, they had a
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: rally in D.C., and they said, you know, we're going
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: to kind of go on this excursion if you're interested
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: to go protest and come at ping pong. So they
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: have a whole itinerary.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Well, before I let you go, part of the reason
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: this podcast is, one, for me to wrap my head
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: around some of the stuff that I'm seeing out there
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: on the road, but two, help me, what am I
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: going to see out there on the road a couple
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: months from now?
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: One, in regards to the JFK Jr. conspiracy?
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: How does that morph? And two, am I going to
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: get a new Robin Williams movie out of all this?
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think the JFK Jr. stuff is
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: going to continue. I mean, I saw, in particular, I
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: think if Trump keeps engaging more with QAnon, I think
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: we're going to see more people getting into QAnon and
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: kind of see some fresh energy behind that. I once
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: went to the kind of the Trumpian July 4th event,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: and all these women at the Trump Hotel were wearing
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: like JFK Jr. shirts and And this lady had a
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: JFK Jr. mask on her face. And I said to her,
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: you know, what's that about? And she goes, he's alive.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: And she kind of flitters away. So, I mean, I
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: don't think that energy is going anywhere. And, you know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: I think we get new conspiracy theories all the time.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: And so I think, you know, you got the big one.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: I'm seeing a lot of movement on this idea that
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: the elites want to make us all eat bugs. Jordan,
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: so you might want to be on the lookout for that.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: I think there's going to be a lot of like,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: what they say is, I will not eat the bugs.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: And so I think you might get someone accosting you
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: about that. So don't make them do it.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I hate this. I hate this job so much. Dear Lord.
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: Dear Lord.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Jordan, you might want to be on the lookout.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: I guess there's this thing about elites.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Trying to make you eat bugs.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: Bugazi.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Is that what it is? Joe, what do I have
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: to look out for?
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: So worse than that, I think the same reporter who
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: was writing about the bug eating was also writing about
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: forced anal swabbing. It's not just about testing for COVID.
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: It's about humiliating you in public. So if you walk
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: down the street and they have like a government tent
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: set up where they're sticking people with Q-tips up the ass,
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: that's going to be that's going to be something come true.
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: Somebody's dark dream, apparently.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: So this is how I'm writing it down right now.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: I need to be aware of Bug Gazi and Bum Gazi.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: They're on the horizon. Thank you, gentlemen. Well, Will, Joe,
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: thanks for coming on the podcast. I'm going to go
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: down to a Trump rally in a few. Do you
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: guys want to come along?
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: Might be a little intense for me.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, thank you guys for joining
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: me and helping me figure this conspiracy.
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me. Thank you.