Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / CrimeCon Live: ‘Up & Vanished’ creator Payne Lindsay

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CrimeCon Live: ‘Up & Vanished’ creator Payne Lindsay · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: On Saturday, October twenty two and two thousand five, Tera
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Speaker 1: Grinstead went missing from her residence. As the hours turned
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Speaker 1: into days, days in two weeks, weeks in two months,
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Speaker 1: and eventually months into years, the search efforts never ceased.
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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So we always
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Speaker 1: believed that it would be solved. We just did not
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Speaker 1: know when. A few days ago an individual came forward
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Speaker 1: and reported that they had information into Terror's disappearance. Through
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Speaker 1: these interviews, enough probable cause was discovered so we could
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Speaker 1: swear out and arrest warrant charging Ryan Alexander Duke with
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Speaker 1: the murder of Tera Grinstead. Duke was taken into custody
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Speaker 1: yesterday afternoon and the warrant was issued this morning. This
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Speaker 1: is part two of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Live
0:53
Speaker 1: from Crime Cotton on the stage with Nancy ken Crafts
0:56
Speaker 1: and Tom Fastbender from Making a Murderer and Up and
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Speaker 1: van As creator Paine Lindsay with me. Pay Lindsay Payne
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Speaker 1: is the creator of Up and Vanished, and he first
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Speaker 1: focused on the disappearance of a beautiful young lady and
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Speaker 1: I really identified with her mother a lot, Tara Grinstead,
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Speaker 1: which I believe largely because Paine stayed on it in
1:22
Speaker 1: his podcast. Has just been cracked after many, many years
1:27
Speaker 1: of being a cold case. So Paine, what's up, man,
1:30
Speaker 1: what's up? So thanks for talking to me before it
1:33
Speaker 1: cracked too. We spoke beforehand. We did a little podcast
1:37
Speaker 1: interview exchange. But it really kind of struck a chord
1:40
Speaker 1: with me when you were talking about when you went
1:42
Speaker 1: inside terrace house. When you know, I did all my
1:45
Speaker 1: research and one of the first place you go is
1:48
Speaker 1: looking at old news clips and all the news archives,
1:52
Speaker 1: and you were in a lot of them. You did
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Speaker 1: tons of interviews with persons of interest, different suspects and
1:57
Speaker 1: family members, and went to Oscilla and or from Georgia.
2:00
Speaker 1: So I knew that this case had to struck a
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Speaker 1: chord with you and really kind of connected with me
2:05
Speaker 1: when you shared that story about being inside her house
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Speaker 1: and it being real neat. It looked like a little
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Speaker 1: doll dollhouse. It was everything. It looked like what's that magazine?
2:18
Speaker 1: That interior magazine. No, it's like they sell things like furniture.
2:26
Speaker 1: It starts with a D. It'll come to me a minute.
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Speaker 1: It looked so perfect, like it was out of one
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Speaker 1: of those magazines where they sell house goods. And then
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Speaker 1: there was a lamps when the police came, there was
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Speaker 1: a lampshade askew. There were pearls all across the floor
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Speaker 1: and the edge of her bead. One of the columns
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Speaker 1: bedstead had been it's cracked. A couple of subtle clues
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Speaker 1: that there may have been a struggle inside the home.
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Speaker 1: Nothing definitive. When you actually a question, having been on
3:02
Speaker 1: this case for a long time and covering it a
3:04
Speaker 1: long time ago, were you surprised about the arrest of
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Speaker 1: two former students? For I was, And I'll tell you why. Okay,
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Speaker 1: there's my husband and he doesn't have the children. Why
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Speaker 1: didn't you give him some ore melotonem and you star
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Speaker 1: six seven and a star six seven? Okay, fine, that'll
3:28
Speaker 1: be fine. What's the temperature outside right now? They're fine.
3:32
Speaker 1: They're in the car left air condition on. Um. We're
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Speaker 1: talking about Tara Grinstead. David went with me and the
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Speaker 1: night that we went through the home, we stopped at
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Speaker 1: the only restaurant we could find by the interstate. Was
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Speaker 1: it a waffle house? Had house waffle house and had
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Speaker 1: a steak? Not that he had the steak, had the
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Speaker 1: waffle um. Yes. But the reason I was surprised is
4:03
Speaker 1: because typically murders are committed by somebody you know, that's
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Speaker 1: in your close circle. That's your husband, that's your ex,
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Speaker 1: that's your boyfriend, and then it moves out. Okay, I
4:19
Speaker 1: did not see that. I should have, but I didn't.
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Speaker 1: So what do you think means? I mean, why then,
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Speaker 1: if these guys did do this, how were they ever
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Speaker 1: in the same place. I don't believe that Ryan Duke
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Speaker 1: just went over to terrace House one night on a win.
4:34
Speaker 1: But are you suggesting they had a sex relationship? Always
4:38
Speaker 1: the same thing with man, isn't it it? Really? It's
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Speaker 1: actually not. I don't even believe that. Really, what is it?
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Speaker 1: I just want to know how I turned that around
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Speaker 1: on you? You did? It was really mean? Your mean?
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Speaker 1: Thank you? You know, man, don't like a nice woman.
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Speaker 1: You know you cook for them, you know, you do
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Speaker 1: everything for m You give a little cards. No, they
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Speaker 1: want somebody man. Okay, Now wait, why do I think
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Speaker 1: I think that there are times in life when people collide,
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Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. I think that they probably
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Speaker 1: they may have gone into burglarize. They there was a
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Speaker 1: big shin dig that night barbecue at her boss's house.
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Speaker 1: She was a teacher or somebody connected with the board
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Speaker 1: of education, and I mean so very everybody knows everything
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Speaker 1: in that town and um Or they went by and
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Speaker 1: saw her car was gone, but they had been in
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Speaker 1: her car because she was one of those neat freaks.
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Speaker 1: I mean, you could tell that from inside of her house.
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Speaker 1: Her seat was pushed back. You know, you get in
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Speaker 1: your car and your husband's been then there and it's
5:46
Speaker 1: like uh, and you fix it. And there was mud
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Speaker 1: all over where the tires had been somewhere muddy. She
5:55
Speaker 1: would never have done that. That's just not her. You know,
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Speaker 1: those people like you get in the car it's perfect
6:00
Speaker 1: and it smells clean and everything they have the little
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Speaker 1: protectors and all that was her. Her car was covered
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Speaker 1: in the tires were covered in red mud, and the
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Speaker 1: seat was pushed back, so they had been in her car.
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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if they did not get her on
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Speaker 1: the way home or getting out of her car, or
6:21
Speaker 1: were burglarizing and she came in upon them, so they
6:25
Speaker 1: killed her. Either way, it's strange to me. Yeah, it's strange,
6:29
Speaker 1: and it would make more sense if it wasn't random,
6:32
Speaker 1: like in some people's minds if they had had a
6:36
Speaker 1: relationship and she kept in a big secret, like why
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Speaker 1: would she want a kid from high school? I don't
6:41
Speaker 1: think she would. I think that she was actually a
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Speaker 1: beauty queen and smart has applied to a PhD program.
6:48
Speaker 1: I mean everything that's find It's strange that what the
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Speaker 1: gb I is alleging is that Ryan Duke, who's been
6:56
Speaker 1: charged with murder I was white. They ran to inject himself.
7:01
Speaker 1: And um, they say that Ryan Duke went to tear
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Speaker 1: his house mill of night on Saturday night and broke
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Speaker 1: into her house with the intent to steal something and
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Speaker 1: killed her with one hand. And I just find that
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Speaker 1: hard to believe if you were one. There's nothing valuable
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Speaker 1: in tear his house. She's a school teacher. They don't
7:21
Speaker 1: get paid very much money. Unfortunately. You really think, I mean,
7:24
Speaker 1: what what what what did you do before you started podcasting? Nothing? Okay? Yeah,
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Speaker 1: you really think that crains like Ryan Jukes sit around
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Speaker 1: and go, wow, if I did break in, I might
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Speaker 1: not find anything. No, they just do it. They do it.
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Speaker 1: It seems like a bad house to rob, It does,
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Speaker 1: doesn't it? They thought about that. I don't know. I mean,
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Speaker 1: I think that anybody would think about that. Maybe Ryan
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Speaker 1: Duke didn't that night. Okay, let me tell you something.
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Speaker 1: When I first started prosecuting, I had not been out
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Speaker 1: on the street very much. I got a case. I
8:01
Speaker 1: opened the file and I'm like, I said, this cop
8:04
Speaker 1: is lying. Now are you in here still? I told
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Speaker 1: you this story? So I opened because the cop wrote
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Speaker 1: on the repolice report I was driving through McLendon down,
8:16
Speaker 1: you know whatever, and the defendant came up for me
8:20
Speaker 1: on the corner and held up a glass singed bag
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Speaker 1: of crack in his right hand. I'm like, you expect
8:29
Speaker 1: me to believe a dope was gonna hold up a
8:33
Speaker 1: pack of crack on the street. That didn't happen. You're lying.
8:38
Speaker 1: I'm throwing the case out. I said this to a cop.
8:41
Speaker 1: I was straight out of lost. I didn't know anything. Okay,
8:44
Speaker 1: So you know, fast forward a few months, I'm out
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Speaker 1: investigating a childless station case. I pull into the same project.
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Speaker 1: A guy goes, I'm like, how much you buy it for? So? Yeah,
9:03
Speaker 1: I got a good deal and it was a five rock. Yeah.
9:07
Speaker 1: So you're saying, wow, you think you would really have
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Speaker 1: broken into tearrat Grinstead's house when there wasn't that much
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Speaker 1: to Yeah, I do, Yeah, why not? There's other parts
9:19
Speaker 1: of the story that make it make less sense, Like
9:21
Speaker 1: he drove twenty minutes in the middle of the night
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Speaker 1: to go to Terrace House solely her house. Why her house?
9:28
Speaker 1: There's gonna be a reason. Maybe you wanted to raper maybe,
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Speaker 1: I mean, do you doubt that, do you doubt that
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Speaker 1: it's him? No? Then I just think that the narrative. Then,
9:39
Speaker 1: can I ask you what difference does it make why
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Speaker 1: he went and killed her? Well, if it involved other people,
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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be important that they are held accountable as well? Yes,
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Speaker 1: I think that Ryan do very well. Maybe you know,
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Speaker 1: responsible for killing Sarah, but you think somebody else helped
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Speaker 1: get rid of them. I think there's more people involved
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Speaker 1: in the story. I think that the narrative is presented
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Speaker 1: this way and there's a gag order and play is
10:00
Speaker 1: because it's convenient for law enforcement. Conspiracy, I'm really I'm not. Actually,
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Speaker 1: I'm really not. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm really not. People,
10:09
Speaker 1: I really am not. If you want, thank you's Keith right,
10:14
Speaker 1: he saves normal, He's got a successful podcast. If I
10:17
Speaker 1: can just add to this discussion. You know, that's why
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Speaker 1: prosecutors are not required in homicide trials to prove motive
10:23
Speaker 1: because sometimes we don't know the answer is I don't
10:26
Speaker 1: know why just something like that. Why do you know
10:29
Speaker 1: you're trying to take relatively crazy decisions as people make
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Speaker 1: and trying to fit it into something that is is
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Speaker 1: like everybody when you're investigating and you consider that, right,
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Speaker 1: isn't motive pretty important an investigation? Tom but absolutely? But
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Speaker 1: the prosecutors ever simplify a case and just try to
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Speaker 1: ignore that somebody else may be involved just to get
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Speaker 1: their conviction. Why do you think they're ignoring it just
10:52
Speaker 1: because they had told you about it? Make their job easy?
10:57
Speaker 1: Well that's that s maiking my teeth. I mean, hold on,
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Speaker 1: we've got a defense lawyer in the house, Renee. How
11:06
Speaker 1: many times have I prosecuted or you defended people and
11:10
Speaker 1: you're like, why are you so damn stupid? Why would
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Speaker 1: you do this? A lot of times people? Whether du
11:27
Speaker 1: you know that one of the one of the one
11:40
Speaker 1: of the social science that discussions or reasons is because
11:45
Speaker 1: that class of people in Nancy, you know this is
11:47
Speaker 1: have a good degree of impulsivity about them. They don't
11:50
Speaker 1: think things through. That's why they're criminals. If it wasn't
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Speaker 1: for stupid criminals through because I mean they burned tear
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Speaker 1: his body for several days and that's not alleged. That's
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Speaker 1: something that one of the people admitted. It makes you wonder,
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Speaker 1: how can you be stupid and smart? What Ryan has
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Speaker 1: alleged to be done was stupid in my opinion, But
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Speaker 1: it wasn't that stupid If the g B I couldn't
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Speaker 1: solve it for eleven years, so there was I think
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Speaker 1: it's because he was so outside her sphere. I mean, yes,
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Speaker 1: he was at school, the same school when she was
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Speaker 1: teaching there. I'm not even sure did she teach him
12:27
Speaker 1: and she taught him it was three years, you know,
12:30
Speaker 1: why would you even think of him so? But do
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Speaker 1: you have any doubt based on what you know now
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Speaker 1: that he is the killer? No, I just think there's
12:43
Speaker 1: a different story and think I think there may be
12:45
Speaker 1: a different I agree with you that should be held
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Speaker 1: responsible And the good thing is we're going to learn
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Speaker 1: the different story and upcoming up and vanished episodes produced
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Speaker 1: by Duke Look, hey, hey, I may beat him up
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Speaker 1: on the time but I still want him. You're not
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Speaker 1: getting him. He's mine, He's mine to mis tree. Okay,
13:06
Speaker 1: for guy, let's take one more question. Okay what Okay,
13:11
Speaker 1: we gotta take three. Okay you first. I love it because,
13:22
Speaker 1: like right now, I'm thinking about those two little girls
13:24
Speaker 1: that were murdered in Delphi. Look, it's a small police force.
13:28
Speaker 1: Everybody's ragging on them. They're trying. You think they don't
13:33
Speaker 1: want to solve it. They need help, like you, Missy Beavers.
13:38
Speaker 1: They need help. Don't drag him down, lift him up,
13:42
Speaker 1: help the police. Yes, I mean I really think Pain
13:47
Speaker 1: is partially responsible for staying on that case and then
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Speaker 1: getting cracked. I really do. He never let up. I do.
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Speaker 1: Thank you and these guys. I mean imagine Heaven netflix
14:00
Speaker 1: against you. I mean, whoa, that's a that's a real
14:06
Speaker 1: David and Goliath, like I always say, and you know this,
14:10
Speaker 1: to be treated my husband, I'd be one o'clock at
14:12
Speaker 1: night making posters for the next day. I would buy
14:17
Speaker 1: my own supplies and all the DEA didn't have any money. Um,
14:21
Speaker 1: you're up against a lot, you really are? What what
14:24
Speaker 1: where am I going with this? Yes? I like citizens
14:27
Speaker 1: that try, Yes, but one of the questions and so
14:51
Speaker 1: what in the they put it in the back of
15:07
Speaker 1: the vehicle, according to Brendan, because they had to decide
15:11
Speaker 1: what to do with her body. Okay, so at that
15:13
Speaker 1: point they threw her in the back. And they did
15:15
Speaker 1: throw her because there's the cast off blood. Remember the
15:18
Speaker 1: blood pattern analysis that we talked about yesterday. We know
15:22
Speaker 1: and didn't make any sense until Brennan told us, why
15:24
Speaker 1: she in the back of our own vehicle? And it
15:26
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, But now it makes sense. They're going
15:28
Speaker 1: to decide what to do with with the body, and
15:31
Speaker 1: and they decided to burn and said Tommy and agree
15:36
Speaker 1: with that. But number two, you're just not gonna let
15:39
Speaker 1: a body lay around the garage for when there are
15:41
Speaker 1: brothers and relatives and people that may stop by. So
15:44
Speaker 1: they're putting it somewhere, putting her somewhere. And there's this
15:48
Speaker 1: instinct that I've always seen. I cannot explain it to
15:52
Speaker 1: hide the body and if it's somebody you know, you'll
15:56
Speaker 1: see them cover the face. It's very odd. Was that
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Speaker 1: the rest of your question? Can I just want there
16:11
Speaker 1: are I want the truth. I don't care if the
16:19
Speaker 1: courthouse falls down, if the walls crash in. I don't
16:24
Speaker 1: care if someone wrongfully convicted, is it's made clear and
16:28
Speaker 1: they get out of jail. I want the truth. I
16:30
Speaker 1: want the right person behind bars, come hell or high water.
16:37
Speaker 1: If I can add one, one of the most hurtful
16:39
Speaker 1: things said about me, and and there's there's been a
16:41
Speaker 1: lot of things, is that I only cared about a
16:44
Speaker 1: conviction instead of justice. I'm sitting here in front of
16:47
Speaker 1: while of you right now, and any prosecutor would say this,
16:51
Speaker 1: I don't care if they did it. I don't care
16:52
Speaker 1: if they didn't do it. I wanted the right result.
16:55
Speaker 1: And so when they suggest that everything we did was
16:58
Speaker 1: just for a prosecution or a convict, when Tom just
17:01
Speaker 1: did the questioning of him just looking for a confession,
17:05
Speaker 1: that's not true at all. People that do our work
17:07
Speaker 1: don't do it to get rich. People that do our
17:09
Speaker 1: work do it to seek justice for that and that's
17:13
Speaker 1: why why we do those things. And I will stick
17:15
Speaker 1: by that until my dying breath. Yep, where they were
17:31
Speaker 1: crafting round? Hey, what do you calling hell? Billy little girl?
17:40
Speaker 1: So where's the rest of the evidence. Okay, were you
17:44
Speaker 1: in our presentation? I don't know the answer. We did
17:50
Speaker 1: well uh, if the if a chilling occurred in the bedroom,
17:56
Speaker 1: he did burn all the sheets, according to Brendon, and
17:59
Speaker 1: that would make sense. Get rid all the sheets and
18:01
Speaker 1: burned them. The bedroom was totally reconfigured, totally reconfigured from
18:07
Speaker 1: before and after there was a carpet cleaner of vacuum
18:10
Speaker 1: cleaner bleach in the bathroom. He scoured that bedroom. He
18:14
Speaker 1: scoured that house to get rid of any sign. He
18:17
Speaker 1: is no stranger to DNA. Then in the garage, we
18:21
Speaker 1: already know he used gasoline paint thinner bleach on a
18:26
Speaker 1: garage floor. His own brother asked me once when I
18:29
Speaker 1: asked him about that, He goes, why would you use
18:31
Speaker 1: bleach in a garage floor? And I said, what do
18:33
Speaker 1: you think? And he goes, Oh, guys, come on right
18:36
Speaker 1: right there. How often do you see a man suddenly
18:39
Speaker 1: get a neat jag vacuuming and cleaning and sting cleaning
18:45
Speaker 1: the carpet. When has that ever happened? Ever? Oh, I
18:51
Speaker 1: think I could clean the garage out with gas and bleach.
18:54
Speaker 1: Brendon clean up or Stephen. Stephen Brendan helped in the garage.
18:59
Speaker 1: He he's the one to talk about the blood or
19:01
Speaker 1: the gas, the paint thinner, and the bleach and officers
19:06
Speaker 1: that went into Steven's trailer when we got there, they
19:10
Speaker 1: actually commented on the cleanliness of the smell, the bleach
19:14
Speaker 1: smell and the cleanliness of the smell in the trailer.
19:18
Speaker 1: So that that's my explanation. My explanation about bleeding. There's
19:22
Speaker 1: not always a ton of blood. There's ways to limit
19:25
Speaker 1: blood if the body, if the person is dead and
19:27
Speaker 1: the heart's not pumping, you're not gonna have a lot
19:29
Speaker 1: of blood active bleeding. We don't know what went on
19:34
Speaker 1: in there. You put a blanket over and you stab someone,
19:36
Speaker 1: that limits the bleeding it, you know, So the blood
19:39
Speaker 1: amount of blood is an unknowing. Yep. The high school
19:45
Speaker 1: probably know you and she yeah, possibly Yeah. Her question
19:58
Speaker 1: was to paint lindsay since this was her student, wouldn't
20:03
Speaker 1: she probably opened the door. He knew her and her
20:05
Speaker 1: boyfriend and broken up and she would be alone. Yeah,
20:08
Speaker 1: she may have opened the door, But that's not what
20:09
Speaker 1: the gb I said happened. They say that he broke
20:12
Speaker 1: in there and he would know that. Yes, she's an
20:22
Speaker 1: easy beautiful he's yeah, and she she may have. She
20:27
Speaker 1: would have known him and may have trusted him enough
20:30
Speaker 1: to let him inside. For sure, it's possible. Something I
20:33
Speaker 1: heard you say earlier when you were doing your podcast
20:36
Speaker 1: and here is you suggested that maybe she was just
20:39
Speaker 1: in a state of mind to do something out of
20:40
Speaker 1: the ordinary and wild. Are you suggesting she might have
20:44
Speaker 1: gone to that party with Ryan and Bow. I just
20:47
Speaker 1: think that based on the emails that I have read,
20:50
Speaker 1: that kind of give insight into terrorist state of mind
20:53
Speaker 1: in that time. She seemed very vulnerable to me, and
20:56
Speaker 1: I always just gut feeling, like you get your good feelings,
20:59
Speaker 1: thought that that might be related to her disappearance. Maybe
21:02
Speaker 1: one person have seen them together, Oh yeah, that's for sure,
21:07
Speaker 1: But they didn't or they just didn't say that. The
21:10
Speaker 1: Principles barbecue, we're talking about a separate instance, a separate
21:14
Speaker 1: party in town that night. One person. Maybe she didn't go.
21:18
Speaker 1: Maybe she's at the barbecue at eleven o'clock, and maybe
21:20
Speaker 1: she doesn't go straight home. Maybe she goes somewhere else.
21:24
Speaker 1: Maybe she goes out here on the orchard where there's
21:25
Speaker 1: a party and there's other people around. What what people
21:29
Speaker 1: friends of Bill and Ryan and they are How old
21:33
Speaker 1: is how oldt Okay? So maybe she went to a
21:39
Speaker 1: party out in an orchard with a group of her
21:41
Speaker 1: former students. Is that what you're okay? And so after
21:46
Speaker 1: all these years, not one of those students ever came
21:49
Speaker 1: forward and said, yeah, we saw her that night. They haven't,
21:53
Speaker 1: but they are now the ones I'm talking to. They
21:56
Speaker 1: are now saying that she was there an upcoming up.
22:01
Speaker 1: What are they saying? She was at the party? Not
22:04
Speaker 1: that specifically, But all these people, all the friends of
22:07
Speaker 1: Bow and Ryan, most of them knew about this too.
22:10
Speaker 1: That whatever happened, they knew about it and they kept
22:13
Speaker 1: it as secrets. So the idea that this secret could
22:16
Speaker 1: not be kept for so long she no, but that
22:21
Speaker 1: they knew what happened specifically. That's that's one of my theories.
22:25
Speaker 1: It's easier to make it make sense if she was
22:27
Speaker 1: already out there on the orchard to me um, versus
22:31
Speaker 1: Ryan taking her out there at her house perfect well,
22:39
Speaker 1: the house was almost perfect, I mean, but there was
22:48
Speaker 1: no real signs of fitting into pain Lindsay's narrative. I'm
22:55
Speaker 1: not saying that's not true. I'm saying that that's all
22:56
Speaker 1: that's a possibility. But Ryan Duke's pretty small guy. I mean,
23:04
Speaker 1: it's confusing. I mean he's not. Yeah, Okay, there's I
23:10
Speaker 1: promise you I am hit. Don't make her She's not.
23:16
Speaker 1: She's tell it, tell it. Somebody is chewing pain, lindsay
23:20
Speaker 1: a nearer intull Okay, I mean, let this lady stand
23:25
Speaker 1: up in the purple paying ishe? Yeah? After her class
23:35
Speaker 1: random out over anybody else going on? What do you
23:43
Speaker 1: think two of them three years showed her? That's why? What? Well,
24:01
Speaker 1: let me first clear this up real quickly. Mean, Tara
24:03
Speaker 1: is the victim here. I'm not saying anything else. I
24:05
Speaker 1: mean whatever happened to Terra was something else. No, I
24:12
Speaker 1: literally said that there might be I think she's try
24:18
Speaker 1: It's easy to to make it seem like I'm victim
24:23
Speaker 1: shaming or something like that. I'm not. No. I mean
24:27
Speaker 1: if I was shaming a victim, I wouldn't be doing
24:29
Speaker 1: it up and vanished. I said that she might have
24:35
Speaker 1: been vulnerable and made a decision that was out of
24:37
Speaker 1: the norm for Tera, and going to a place where
24:41
Speaker 1: strangers might be a decision out of the norm. I'm
24:43
Speaker 1: not saying she had any sort of intent there. She
24:46
Speaker 1: may have just had an open invitation and done something
24:50
Speaker 1: out of the norm and that's why this case has
24:51
Speaker 1: been unsuna. No, I don't think so. I think that
24:56
Speaker 1: if anything, if Ryan may have had some sort of
24:59
Speaker 1: obsession with her, Tara had nothing to do with Ryan.
25:01
Speaker 1: I don't think they talked to each other over the years.
25:04
Speaker 1: I think that it might have been something that it
25:05
Speaker 1: could have been development, something else. What she's saying, like
25:09
Speaker 1: you ran into her that day. I think they had
25:13
Speaker 1: no interaction over the last three years. I just want
25:16
Speaker 1: to always he could have seen her that night and
25:20
Speaker 1: followed at home. I mean, it could have been that simple.
25:22
Speaker 1: Well I've got to go okay that the Yeah the
25:31
Speaker 1: shade who said that? Says Maurice Godwin. Okay, yeah, but
25:41
Speaker 1: then there's still the pearls on the floor. There was
25:43
Speaker 1: a lady in the bat yes there or you see
25:54
Speaker 1: the clips the full clip ran here. The history of
26:02
Speaker 1: pulation really strong. I mean it's just very convincing. That
26:16
Speaker 1: wrong testimonies, the splicing and sup there thanks uh we
26:33
Speaker 1: uh and and thank you for that. Let me just
26:35
Speaker 1: repeat what she said. She said the presentation yesterday showed
26:38
Speaker 1: some of the splicing, some of the deceptive editing that
26:41
Speaker 1: making a murderer did, and showed just just how troubling
26:46
Speaker 1: that was. I wanted to mention and I might have
26:49
Speaker 1: been mentioned before I even walked in here, but um,
26:52
Speaker 1: I wrote a book called Avery, The Case against Stephen
26:55
Speaker 1: Avery and what making a murderer gets wrong. It is
26:57
Speaker 1: right here. Uh. It is by the way they sold
27:00
Speaker 1: out here, which is fantastic, and they also, um are
27:05
Speaker 1: taking orders and they will directly mail that to you.
27:08
Speaker 1: But in a a setting like this, And since this
27:12
Speaker 1: is the first time since the book came out that
27:14
Speaker 1: I am on the same stage with this young lady
27:17
Speaker 1: to my left, I wanted to personally thank Nancy Grace
27:20
Speaker 1: for writing the foreward to uh Avery. It's a fantastic book,
27:24
Speaker 1: and it's also a fantastic forward, and I wanted to
27:27
Speaker 1: personally thank you for that. Nancy, Thank you, Thank you
27:32
Speaker 1: for coming. Okay, I swear this is the last question.
27:38
Speaker 1: Who hasn't okay? Who has not asked a question yet?
27:42
Speaker 1: Hit me? Is it the word question? Boy? Okay? Thank
27:55
Speaker 1: I have an answer for that. Tom didn't the mother?
27:58
Speaker 1: Wasn't the mother at on time in the next room,
28:02
Speaker 1: wasn't it she come down again? We're talking about multiple
28:04
Speaker 1: interviewers and on the March first interview, we contacted her.
28:08
Speaker 1: We asked her if we could interview Brendan again. She
28:12
Speaker 1: consented and when asked if she wanted to be there,
28:15
Speaker 1: she said no, Well she didn't say she said she
28:18
Speaker 1: had something going. She would be but she'll come down
28:20
Speaker 1: when she's done. And then there was another time that
28:24
Speaker 1: you called the defense attorneys right two months later, right,
28:29
Speaker 1: but there has nothing to do with it with the
28:30
Speaker 1: March first interview. But two months later, two months later,
28:34
Speaker 1: defense attorneys. Actually, this is the sad part, for defense
28:38
Speaker 1: attorney offered him up to make another statement. What you
28:40
Speaker 1: folks don't know is Brendan already agreed to a plea
28:44
Speaker 1: bargain just before that last statement. So this last interview
28:50
Speaker 1: with the defense attorney wanting him to give one more statement,
28:53
Speaker 1: he'd already agreed to that fifteen year deal that we made.
28:57
Speaker 1: It was between that time and when the weekend was
29:01
Speaker 1: over that Brendan rejected the POLA offer that he had
29:05
Speaker 1: to play guilty, right, and so that that last statement
29:09
Speaker 1: was really their idea. That is, we didn't want another statement, geez,
29:13
Speaker 1: we had plenty of statements. We don't want any more
29:16
Speaker 1: from Brendan. At that time, that was the defense attorney's
29:18
Speaker 1: desire and request that we take a statement one of
29:22
Speaker 1: May and that reminds me of something that happened in
29:24
Speaker 1: tot Mom Casey Anthony, do you remember we were right
29:28
Speaker 1: in the middle of the try and all of a a sudden,
29:29
Speaker 1: suddenly they recessed court and I'm like what what? They
29:33
Speaker 1: had offered her a deal, according to reports, and her
29:36
Speaker 1: whole defense team wanted her to take the guilty play.
29:40
Speaker 1: She would not do it. They, knowing the case, wanted
29:45
Speaker 1: her to play guilty. Court ended because they wanted to
29:49
Speaker 1: talk to her about playing guilty. I did not know
29:52
Speaker 1: that Dassy had accepted a guilty play, and his lawyers,
29:56
Speaker 1: even his later lawyers after Mr. Katchinsky was thrown off
29:59
Speaker 1: the case, even his later lawyers after Avery is already convicted.
30:04
Speaker 1: We still offered Brendon a plea because I didn't need
30:07
Speaker 1: assess the one anymore. But that kid didn't deserve life
30:10
Speaker 1: in prison, and they still rejected. At the defense attorneys
30:14
Speaker 1: did what's called a c y a letter where they said,
30:17
Speaker 1: we've recommended this to our client. It was his decision
30:21
Speaker 1: not to take it, we know, and effective assistance. Why
30:23
Speaker 1: they write that kind of letter? They were saying to Brendan,
30:27
Speaker 1: you're going to get convicted, young man. I got a
30:32
Speaker 1: question Alan the Duke Duke from his posh penthouse pad
30:38
Speaker 1: and Hollywood has a question for you. Okay, I've got
30:42
Speaker 1: a question for you, guys, because this after I watched
30:46
Speaker 1: the Netflix series, I had a certain opinion I thought
30:50
Speaker 1: I had. I thought that he was innocent and he
30:52
Speaker 1: had been framed and they both of them. And but
30:58
Speaker 1: then after digging in to it, my mind evolved. Let's say,
31:02
Speaker 1: show of hands about this weekend. Who walked into this
31:05
Speaker 1: crime con convention thinking Avery was innocent? Anybody, how many?
31:11
Speaker 1: Keep your hands up if you've changed your mind during
31:15
Speaker 1: what you've heard. So most of the folks who thought
31:18
Speaker 1: he was innocent now think he's guilty. Is that right?
31:22
Speaker 1: You've changed your mind in the last couple of days
31:24
Speaker 1: of hearing these two gentlemen and their sessions and everything else.
31:30
Speaker 1: You know, one thing that we have totally disregarded is
31:34
Speaker 1: the jury. They heard the evidence, they heard it all,
31:37
Speaker 1: all of it, and they voted in two separate trials
31:41
Speaker 1: to convict Dassy and convict Avery. And I don't really
31:45
Speaker 1: know where we get the right to question what they did,
31:49
Speaker 1: but you know, I guess it is America. We can
31:52
Speaker 1: question that jury verdict, but they heard it all and
31:55
Speaker 1: they voted, and we certainly know juries can be wrong,
31:58
Speaker 1: but I think they got it right. Okay, Nancy Grace
32:01
Speaker 1: Crime Story signing off, goodbye friends,