Latest / Authentic Living / Thriving Through Pressure and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Dr. Traci Cipriano

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Thriving Through Pressure and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Dr. Traci Cipriano · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Roxanne Durgesh.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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  This week, I have, an audit guest Tracy Cipriano, and, she is quite the culmination of
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  skills, I would say.
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  She is a, former, lawyer and a psychologist.
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  And she she's just recently released a book, a new book.
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  So Tracy, tell us the name of the book, and, it was released in July where people can get it.
• 1:06
  Sure.
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  It's the thriving lawyer, a multi dimensional model of well-being for a sustainable legal
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  profession, and it's really available for any for many any book seller, you can find it
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  online from Amazon, any other book seller online.
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  You can ask your bookstore to purchase it.
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  Have a website with rivinglawyerbook.com.
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  You can go there and click on a link if you want.
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  Awesome.
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  It's not published by Routledge.
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  I didn't publish it myself, publish my route list, but I have links to sellers.
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  Okay.
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  Awesome.
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  So let's, now that's quite the I would say there's a lot of skills that you would have
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  used as a lawyer and but now you're a psychologist.
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  So, yeah, Help me understand the path that you took, Tracy, to kind of, initially were legal.
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  And then now you've stepped over and I know you're also, teaching at, the clinical clinical
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  professor at the Yale School of Medicine.
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  So tell me what tell me about your path.
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  That you decided to take, you know, take these 2 routes.
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  My interests have always been in, psychology law, policy health, and I initially took the
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  law school route.
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  I thought I could, you know, bring change about in the world as a lawyer.
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  And there were things I really enjoyed about law.
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  I enjoyed the research in writing and legal analysis, problem solving, crafting, you know,
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  good arguments, but there were things about the day to day practice that I didn't enjoy.
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  And I eventually decided that, I wanted to take the leap and return to graduate school for
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  psychology.
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  I'm a relational person.
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  I'm very interested in what makes people tick, what's going on, what motivates people.
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  And so I I returned to graduate school for clinical psychology, and I I haven't looked
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  back.
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  It was difficult to make that leap, but the ones I did, it's it's been terrific.
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  But I I think my legal training helps me to work with lawyers because I fully understand.
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  I understand how they think.
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  I understand the environment.
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  I understand the pressures.
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  And it when I'm reading psychological, research and literature, I can say, oh, this is
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  appropriate for that situation.
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  It really helps me, mesh the 2 together.
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  So let's let's talk a little bit about mindset.
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  And in your book, we talked we'll talk a lot about, you know, lawyering.
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  I often say that one of my best friends, he's, you know, been a law and just knowing the
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  backside of what his life is like.
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  Like, he is he's up before us.
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  Oftentimes when we go on vacation, is the and I'll say to him, how long have you been up?
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  So he's like, up before we get up and until the families get up.
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  And then oftentimes when kind of people are being down.
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  He's working again.
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  So and I've been around them for 25 years.
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  So I've seen that.
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  And, obviously, in my professional career, I was able to work floors in Ontario developing
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  the, the Ontario assistance program through a behavioral health consult consulting company
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  that I work with.
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  There's a lot of pressures, in the legal field and tell me a little bit about, you know, kind
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  of your kind of your interface when you were a lawyer, but what are some of the things in the
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  new book that you're focusing on with some of the needs of lawyers.
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  Well, there are a lot of things, just in terms of being able to be starting with being attuned
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  to what's going on with you.
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  How's that?
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  You don't you're not taught in law school to focus on what's what your internal experience
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  is.
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  It's very externally focused.
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  And that can get lawyers into trouble because they don't understand that they're, perhaps
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  they're experienced a mental health issue or even a physical health issue, they're just not
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  attuned to what's going on with them.
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  So beginning to think about, you know, what's going on with you, And then, once you
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  appreciate that, you can do more in terms of self care strategies.
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  I think of your your colleague, I wonder how much sleep he's getting and maybe he needs,
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  education on how sleep might benefit him and even how he might be more efficient with his
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  work.
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  Maybe he has no complaints, and he's fine.
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  But if he's saying to you, well Roxanne, I'm always tired.
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  I can't seem to get everything done.
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  Maybe there's something about sleep in there that needs to be, addressed.
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  And then there are, the workplace pressures which include those long hours, the never
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  ending assignments, billable hour requirements, Workplace culture and expectations.
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  Sounds like your friend is a partner, but is a new associate?
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  What are the expectations?
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  There may be policies, but then there's the unwritten policies and expectations that
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  everyone knows what they are, even though they're on spoken, and how do those affect
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  effects associates, how do people treat each other, if there is, an unhealthy unhealthy
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  behavior going on and the way people are interacting, does anyone step up in leadership
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  and and address that?
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  Whether there are a lot of pressures in that way, then there's there's work family balance,
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  There is the issue of social support.
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  I, wrote an article for law 360 a few weeks ago about lawyer loneliness.
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  I mean, any lawyers are feel lonely, but it's between the pressures of the profession and the
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  tendency to not see want to appear vulnerable, and the long hours and a whole combination of
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  factors, it's hard to connect with people when you eventually do have downtime at the end of
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  the day, or if you try to take a vacation and things like that, then there were financial
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  pressures that aren't necessarily work they could be work related.
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  I mean, with the pandemic has created all kinds of pressures for people.
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  But just simply if there's someone with law school loans.
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  I mean, a lot of people go to law school now and incur a lot of debt.
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  And now they're practicing and they say, well, how does this salary going to pay these loans.
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  And so this financial stress, if that's another layer of stress to everything they're
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  experiencing in the profession, you need to have a sense of meaning in your life.
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  I'm I'm giving you a whole laundry list here, but, you know, we all need to have a reason to
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  get up in the morning, have a sense of and purpose and why am I, you know, what's getting
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  me through each day.
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  It could be your work.
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  It could be being a part of a team.
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  It could be something external to work.
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  It could be your family.
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  Your spirituality.
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  And I don't know.
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  There's there's a there's a few things.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, absolutely.
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  And I could I mean, I can tell you that based on the data that I, you know, when I would look
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  at the trending, of some of the legal people, the top issues were relationship.
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  And addictions.
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  Those are the top issue issues that we saw.
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  Again, which would make sense.
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  So here we're talking about mindsets.
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  Right?
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  Like like you said, you're going through law school, you know, you're going through a lot,
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  you know, obviously, you have to be able to be, you know, be able to keep up with with studying
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  and art art articulating and all those things.
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  And then you said you're externally focused so you're getting, you know, how many how many of
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  our years you go in and then you start off in the law firm or you're just kind of doing
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  what's expected of you and meeting customer, clients needs, not really thinking internally.
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  So I would think that that mindset was something that you could really tap into with
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  lawyers because I'm thinking you're you've been a lawyer, so you understand.
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  And now you're a psychologist that's really kind of, you know, it's, you know, once from
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  the outside in and the other ones from the inside out.
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  So kind of having them look at that frame to understand where where do you want to be?
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  That does does that become a difficult space, a lawyer that wants to wants to keep a practice,
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  or be part of a partner track but also, you know, step into the concept of work like
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  balance.
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  Right.
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  How difficult is it hard?
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  Is it to kinda meet those, you know, those mindsets together or blend them?
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  Depends upon if they own the practice or they're one of many partners, right?
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  And so if it's your practice, you really have a lot of autonomy to decide how many hours you'll
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  work, what cases you'll take on, what when you'll work where all of that because firms get
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  larger, it's now you need more people on board in terms of how how is this firm going to
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  operate?
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  And I think that's where some of the challenges are.
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  In terms of that mindset, you're right.
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  I I think one of the things that helps me in talking with lawyers is I I do get it, and I
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  can speak to them in a language that helps them understand that I understand their experience.
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  And but there still is another way.
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  You can actually think about other options, and I, It really it's there's no one size fits all
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  to any firm.
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  As you know, it's really talking to an individual and seeing what their needs are and
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  building from there or talking to, if it's a larger firm, you know, talking to the group and
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  what are your goals?
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  What are why are we even talking?
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  What are the pain points?
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  Why are we talking?
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  Okay.
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  And what are some options that we can do to deal with this?
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  Of course.
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  And absolutely, if it's a small firm, versus a, you know, a firm, say, in on Bay Street in
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  Toronto here.
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  It's a different kind of, you know, what kind of firm is it?
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  So in your book, tell us kind of the what what kind of things if in the legal profession.
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  What are can people expect from the book?
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  What are some of the things that you explore that say lawyers or firms that are listening to
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  this podcast could or leadership, teams in law firms could would get ugly the book.
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  It the book starts out with explaining, you know, why we should even care what what why do
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  we even care about wellness or managing stress or healthy work environments?
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  Why do we care about this?
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  And so what makes the case for that, it talks about, how to start to focus on, as an
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  individual, internally on what's going on, it addresses self care, at well-being strategies
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  and barriers to them such as stigma or time.
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  It talks about a lot of these workplace issues and how to begin to think about them
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  differently.
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  I ask a lot of questions, you know, challenging the reader to think about how, you know, what
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  does this mean to you, what are your goals, your values, and helping them think through
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  some of the issues themselves, related to their work and their policies.
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  Yeah.
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  So you, in the reading the overview of the book, you talked a little bit about the
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  pandemic and how it affected the legal for the legal, kind of landscape.
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  Can can you share a little bit about what's how it impacted the legal, profession?
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  Well, a few different ways.
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  One is certainly it raised awareness about mental health.
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  And I'd say, like, just before the pandemic law firms at least here in the US, there were more,
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  you know, well-being officer type positions being hired.
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  We were seeing more and more wellness committees.
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  Firms are bringing speakers, but when the pandemic hit, there were just so many
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  pressures, either in law firms, they might have been beyond and couldn't manage all the work,
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  like M and A work, and then smaller firm practitioners were struggling because they
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  didn't have enough work, courts were closed, people were dealing with remote technology,
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  childcare shortages.
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  So all of a sudden, they're working from home in a small apartment and their kids, you know,
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  two year olds running around and So there were a lot of pressures that compounded what was
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  already, a stressful profession.
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  And law firms just had to take note you know, lawyers were burning out and, so it certainly
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  raised awareness, and it's I'm hoping that that will continue.
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  You know, the one thing that I was cognizant about is when we would, do trending up reports
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  is that, oftentimes, the stigma in the legal field was that.
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  And you tell me if this makes sense, and I remember it would be like, well, yeah, we know
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  we have some concerns, but it's really not that bad.
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  That was something that we would see.
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  It would be like, yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, we understand, but, you know, lawyers are very smart people.
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  And they figure it out.
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  So I just wonder if you could chat a little bit.
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  And I would often say, yeah, they're smart people, but if they're all if they're smart
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  people that aren't able to wreck dies that before they get insomnia or before they're
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  maybe having the extra sculpture too or before they're, you know, maybe you know, burning the
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  candle at the the next ends where they're taking that extra call, they're often no longer
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  at short term stress than they kinda getting into the point where it's it's it's, you know,
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  cumulative stress.
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  And then, you know, they're just they're taking something get up, something to go down, you
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  know, they're having more conflict at at home and, you know, they're not seeing their teen,
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  you know, their teenagers who really need them.
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  There's a lot of things that start to happen.
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  Right.
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  You know, so it's it's it's a difficult space in that's the backdrop of the of the legal kind
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  of community was, oh, it's not that bad.
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  Yes.
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  I think there's a tendency to minimize right, what you're experiencing and perhaps, again,
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  not tuning in.
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  And you you're right.
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  You need to address a problem early on.
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  It might be a minor issue, but if you address it early on that it doesn't become a bigger
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  issue, with the issue of substance use, that is a big problem in the legal profession.
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  It's something.
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  It's it's an easy way to go out and unwind.
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  Right?
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  You're too busy to plan anything.
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  So people just go out to happy hour or go out to probably far beyond happy hour by the time
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  they get out and have a drink.
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  And it's a way to unwind.
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  It's an easy way to unwind.
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  The problem is it comes it can become a habit and suddenly, you know, one drink isn't enough.
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  And like you said, you're drinking to go to sleep and now your body processes it and now
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  you wake up earlier, you don't sleep well, and now you you're tired the next day.
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  And so you have to take something else or drink a lot of caffeine to have the energy to focus
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  that day.
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  I feel I feel like there you you've mentioned a lot of different issues.
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  So I when off target on the substance, but substance is a is an issue, but the legal
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  community hasn't thought about it as 1.
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  They see substance use a separate from mental health, even though many people self medicate
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  with it, and then it can become problematic.
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  So they see it as completely separate.
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  So they see it as something that's not related to mental health.
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  They see it as just something that people overused to maybe cope, but not that the co
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  like a co mobility between mental health and and substance use.
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  I would say misuse, and we know addiction can be a smarter smaller subset, but, obviously, I
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  would say through the pandemic, regardless, whoever you were.
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  I know in Canada, I'm sure in the US as well, substance misuse was ramp it, you know, just
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  for people to cope.
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  But, you know, when we think about in the profession today, Tracy.
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  Is it that people are starting to sit and look at it more from the space that, you know, I'll
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  say as a psychotherapist that Your mental health is an continuum.
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  At any given point, any of us can be really mentally well, And all of a sudden, we get
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  misaligned, and then we can kinda get to the point where we're, you know, it could be
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  situational and depression or more I'm getting more anxious.
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  Then all of a sudden, I'm needing to take maybe a little anti anxiety or maybe, you know, my
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  doctor's starting to say maybe you should try and enter a short amount to be present or
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  something like that.
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  So it's it's all on the continuum.
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  Would you see that percussionists start to look at it more like that, or where where is your ed
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  the education level in the field now?
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  Around, mental well-being?
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  I think it varies.
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  I mean, certainly with substance use, I think there's a greater awareness that it is tied to
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  mental health now than as opposed to 20 years ago when I was talking about it.
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  The continuum, yes.
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  I think the thing is I think a lot of people who are involved in the lawyer well-being
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  community and lawyer assistance programs, they get it.
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  But then, it's kind of preaching to the choir is that people outside of that community that
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  still need that education to understand that there is this continuum and that people, you
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  know, your physical health, your mental health, they they they fluctuate.
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  It doesn't mean that you have you know, an illness is just the there are fluctuations
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  based on things going on in your life.
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  I think of the stigma, right?
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  Yes.
• 17:35
  When we think of high functioning, I'm gonna use the word term, you know, doubly or triply
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  personality.
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  Sometimes they draw on to professions like law, let's say.
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  And it's societal norms.
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  I don't know if you would agree with this.
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  What are they doing?
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  They're hyperfunctioning.
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  Right?
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  They're they are not showing the cracks.
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  Oftentimes when it's later stage.
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  Right?
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  So then they're really, really in trouble.
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  So high functioning.
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  Yeah.
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  They're high functioning, and they're, like, keeping it going.
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  And sometimes you wonder how do these individuals keep it going until there's a
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  complete breakdown.
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  As a as a psychologist, when you're looking, what do you think would be a solution for
• 18:15
  something like that?
• 18:16
  You're saying that there's a lot more Wellness committees or wellness, personnel at firms now,
• 18:24
  do you think that's helping or do you think there's more some other things that they should
• 18:29
  be cons considered about implementing in in the different firms.
• 18:35
  Well, I mean, some firms even have mental health professionals embedded within them or
• 18:41
  consulting to the firm.
• 18:43
  But I think the bigger issue is helping people to recognize when they need 1 and feeling okay
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  in doing it.
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  And that's that's that's the biggest hurdle, that, you know, it's the biggest hurdle.
• 18:58
  Yeah.
• 18:59
  Of course.
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  And I I go back to that concept of the mindsets that you're talking about.
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  Right?
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  External versus internal.
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  And, really, at the end of the day, you know, we're all people.
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  We have, you know, and they happen to do their profession and they're very good at it, which
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  is, you know, we need you need people in legislature or, you know, policy and
• 19:21
  governments and if you need a good, lawyer for a criminal, you know, you want that person to
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  be on.
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  So there's that pressure that we need people, good people to be able to be, be able to kind
• 19:32
  of deal with those concerns.
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  But the counter end is, then, like, you talked about a little bit about vulnerability.
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  How is it then that that that person that is always supposed to have the answers?
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  How do they then become vulnerable to be able to say go see a coach or a psychotherapist.
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  That's very difficult for someone who's used to always being in control and keeps people at a
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  distance and doesn't, you know, doesn't let anyone in to understand what's really going on
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  inside of them, to to share with you as a coach or me as a coach or as a psychotherapist,
• 20:07
  that's that's very difficult to do.
• 20:11
  Well, I I wouldn't Yeah.
• 20:12
  I'll give you an example.
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  When we started the program, this is, you know, and we're talking quite a while back.
• 20:17
  Goodness.
• 20:18
  Probably 2002.
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  And, so I was the head of the program.
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  I was running it as the executive.
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  So, so now we were going from it being an external to being morphed into our behavioral,
• 20:30
  health integration with with the law society.
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  So here, now we're trying to make seamless.
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  We answer the phone.
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  They feel like it's a part of their, internal referral arm.
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  The biggest concern, obviously, was we're talking about complete confidentiality.
• 20:48
  Right?
• 20:48
  In psychological services, but guess what?
• 20:50
  The lawyers were always worried about.
• 20:53
  Oh, yeah.
• 20:54
  They were worried about if I tell you something that was gonna impact my practice.
• 21:01
  So we had to really, parse out, kind of the triage that we did with them so that they would
• 21:08
  be aware of that.
• 21:09
  Or else they wouldn't they wouldn't even proceed.
• 21:11
  Right.
• 21:12
  Right?
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  So which was, like, that was the first hurdle we went through.
• 21:15
  And then ultimately, well, I I remember once this is, it was a very telling to the program
• 21:21
  itself and what we're talking about.
• 21:23
  So I had a, someone find me because they, you know, through the entire system, they wanted to
• 21:29
  know who the executive was taking care of the account.
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  And the first question they asked me was what was my background?
• 21:35
  What gave me, the credentials to be able to run the program And then they proceeded that it so
• 21:43
  was tours, by the way, tours married to each other, and one of them called through.
• 21:47
  And the second one was they didn't like the way the therapist, was dressed.
• 21:53
  They didn't like the therapy office because it seemed too informal, and the approach that the
• 21:58
  therapist took was too informal from what they were expecting.
• 22:03
  So it's interesting that shows you as an example of, the issue with having to switch
• 22:09
  chairs to be able to get the help.
• 22:12
  Right?
• 22:13
  Right.
• 22:14
  It was quite, quite fascinating, actually.
• 22:18
  And that ties into, ideas of competence, probably.
• 22:22
  You know, you you have to how do you present your formal?
• 22:25
  You dress formally and that means that you're competent and you know your stuff.
• 22:28
  So the therapist who's dressed casually and has their dog running around in the office or I
• 22:33
  don't know.
• 22:33
  I don't have a dog running I when I was doing psychotherapy, but even with the idea, they
• 22:37
  equate that with competence, which is not true.
• 22:40
  It's just a different way of operating.
• 22:43
  So another level then as well, right, the difference it feels.
• 22:46
  So I I think of you with your being in both and be able to join both of them to help them
• 22:51
  recognize So with this particular conversation, I I I had said to the lawyer that was calling.
• 22:57
  I said, so, like, what is the person supposed to look like?
• 23:00
  I kinda challenge without pushing too hard.
• 23:03
  And they said, well, I just think they would have been a bit more formally dressed.
• 23:07
  Okay.
• 23:08
  And And then what was the what was the office supposed to well, I just don't know, but it
• 23:15
  didn't look the way I thought it should look.
• 23:16
  And we we just chatted just kind of, you know, talking a little bit about, you know, being
• 23:21
  able to be it's hard work to see, a a a psychologist.
• 23:25
  It's difficult to enter and you know, when there's concerns.
• 23:29
  I said, so, you know, just like when you have your practice and let's say you're a criminal
• 23:33
  lawyer, someone comes to you and they really allow you to use your expertise.
• 23:39
  I said that's the space you need to enter, the clinical office in and then he or she, I think
• 23:45
  it was a man.
• 23:46
  The the man said, oh, I get that.
• 23:49
  Not that he was gonna go along with it, but So I think I can understand how tough it is at
• 23:55
  times, right, because when you're the one that has the answers, generally in a profession.
• 24:01
  And when that becomes a big part of the person's identity, it becomes difficult then to
• 24:06
  kind of go to someone even though they're struggling.
• 24:10
  Right.
• 24:11
  And and in that case, in the psychotherapist's office, they didn't know the rules.
• 24:14
  Like, what what are the rules here?
• 24:15
  Everyone's casual and how am I supposed to behave?
• 24:19
  And how do I, you know, everyone's so open?
• 24:21
  And how do I, you know, keep my poker face in here?
• 24:24
  It's it's very intimidating.
• 24:26
  Until people Of course.
• 24:27
  And, like, in a courtroom, it's there's there's guidelines.
• 24:30
  There's certain ways.
• 24:31
  Everybody's supposed to act a certain way when the judge comes in when, you know, those types
• 24:36
  of things, but in the therapy office, it completes a different kind of scenario too.
• 24:40
  So I love the concept again from, like you said, external to internal and then being able
• 24:46
  to kind of, you know, like you said, have the conversations about what they might need to
• 24:51
  develop within themselves.
• 24:54
  So what do you think in our time in reference to mental well-being and the legal profession?
• 24:59
  What do you think is, one of the first things that law firms need to consider if they don't
• 25:07
  already have some things in place.
• 25:09
  That's that's a good question.
• 25:11
  I think a wellness committee of some sort, where people get together and, talk about
• 25:20
  what's going on in the firm and the client and the the the climate and the process.
• 25:25
  I think that committee should involve leaders as well as associates because sometimes leaders
• 25:29
  have one idea of how things are going, and associates have a completely different idea of
• 25:33
  how things are going, and get a sense of what's working and what maybe people would like to see
• 25:40
  change and then think about what's what's realistic.
• 25:43
  What what do people need?
• 25:44
  Do they need a little more autonomy?
• 25:45
  Do they need some flexibility?
• 25:47
  Do they need downtime so that they can feel rejuvenated the next day when they come in?
• 25:52
  And talking about those issues of client emergencies, you really need to answer a client
• 25:58
  at all hours, how do we how are we defining a client emergency?
• 26:04
  There are a whole host of issues, as you know, that need to be addressed.
• 26:07
  But I think just getting people talking about them is a starting point in figuring out where,
• 26:12
  where are the biggest problems in our firm and how do we Where should we go from here?
• 26:16
  Absolutely.
• 26:17
  So, with the with your book, where can you were saying that people can get it pretty much
• 26:25
  anywhere, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble's, different things.
• 26:30
  If people are wanting to reach out whether it's, you know, management teams, for law
• 26:35
  firms, if people wanting to connect with you to chat a little bit further, Where where could
• 26:41
  they get a hold of you?
• 26:44
  A few different places is that you can always find me on LinkedIn.
• 26:46
  That's very probably the easiest thing for people.
• 26:49
  My book website is the thriving lawyerbook.com, and then I have a website.
• 26:54
  It's my name, tracy Sabrianojdphc.com.
• 27:00
  Awesome.
• 27:00
  Well, Chacey, thanks so much for your time.
• 27:02
  So what what am I taking away?
• 27:04
  I I think it's You know, at the end of the day, sometimes professions get, you know, people
• 27:10
  they spend so much time in their professions that that becomes that I am.
• 27:14
  I am a lawyer I am a doctor.
• 27:17
  I'm a psychologist.
• 27:19
  And, if you really haven't spent time developing that internal space entering any
• 27:25
  profession.
• 27:28
  At times, we we do that learning when we're ready in the profession.
• 27:31
  So with the legal profession, obviously, you know, you kinda think, like, Tracy said, it's
• 27:36
  external, being on, being in control, and doing a great job.
• 27:40
  We need them to keep doing that, but how do we do that based on the different types of
• 27:46
  environments that you are in the legal sphere?
• 27:49
  And how is it that you try to understand what are the needs, of of your environment and
• 27:55
  listening listening to say, people are your commodity, they need to stay mentally well.
• 28:02
  And now that we're in the, I think, the space, post pandemic where we recognize there's a lot
• 28:09
  more things that we have not addressed that we look at every profession and say, There's
• 28:14
  always gonna be concerns, but how do we optimally prepare ourselves, so that people
• 28:19
  stay really, really well.
• 28:20
  So, Tracy, thanks so much for sharing.
• 28:22
  And for everyone out there.
• 28:25
  Oh, thanks for coming.
• 28:26
  And, Tracy, it's it's always a pleasure to talk and drill down even further into it and, an
• 28:33
  area that, oftentimes I don't spend time.
• 28:36
  And so thank you.
• 28:37
  And so for everyone, you know, like Tracy, I launched my book in, July of the ROR return on
• 28:45
  relationship where we talk about resilience and their teams.
• 28:48
  If you're wanting a copy of that, it's on Amazon, but you can also go to my website at
• 28:53
  roxanderhodge.com and and grab a copy.
• 28:57
  Again, thanks for tuning in, and Tracy take care, and so nice for you to give us your time.
• 29:02
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating a space for positive, healthy
• 29:08
  change.
• 29:09
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit roxanne
• 29:16
  Durgesh.com/blueprint.
• 29:19
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.