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From Heroin and Heartbreak to Hope: Elizabeth's Redemption · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apoche Production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Adam Shand. There are very few happy endings in the
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: crime world, so I like to bring you those stories
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  Speaker 2: when I can. And today, I have an episode for
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: you that really moved me. Elizabeth, not her real name,
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  Speaker 2: spent decades of her life mired in drug addiction, crime
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  Speaker 2: and jail. She lived in a loveless world, never enjoying
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  Speaker 2: any real sense of security. As the wife of a
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: major heroin dealer, she lived a high life and enjoyed
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  Speaker 2: the trappings of wealth, but all of it disappeared the
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  Speaker 2: day her husband vanished, presumed murdered. Elizabeth hit rock bottom,
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  Speaker 2: but eventually managed to change her life and turn her
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  Speaker 2: face away from drugs and crime. It's a story of
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  Speaker 2: redemption and the infinite possibilities of faith. And hope. Elizabeth,
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  Speaker 2: welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: You're grimacing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: This is a difficult conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it, really? Not really. No, I'm just, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But I think it's, I mean, I look at your
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  Speaker 2: story as one of redemption and you look at the
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: cohort of women that you knew in prison and outside,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I guess a lot of them would be dead now or,
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  Speaker 2: you know, when you think of those people that you're
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  Speaker 2: running with them.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yeah, my husband and my other partner, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: lost my partners.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, they end up calling me the black widow,
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  Speaker 1: but it was nothing to do with me.
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  Speaker 4: But they were saying, all the guys you were with
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  Speaker 4: end up dying.
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  Speaker 1: I go, all right. Oh, well, what can I do?
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  Speaker 4: But, you know, I mean, yeah, there were just unfortunate situations.
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  Speaker 4: Like I was in a position with my husband where
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: that I was on methadone.
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  Speaker 1: I said, that's enough.
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  Speaker 4: I don't want to do this stuff anymore. I really
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  Speaker 4: want to get out of this scene. I was ready
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  Speaker 4: to leave.
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  Speaker 1: I'd seen people getting shot, you know, like things, you know,
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  Speaker 1: stabbed and.
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  Speaker 4: Police chasing us and shooting at us, the tires getting
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  Speaker 4: blown out, all sorts of things, you know. And I
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  Speaker 4: didn't want to live like a fugitive, especially not with
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  Speaker 4: my kids. I wanted to give the kids a good education.
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  Speaker 2: You already had a couple of kids. We should set
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: the scene here a little bit. And we can talk
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: about your husband, Victor. Tell us what that marriage was like.
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  Speaker 2: And this is when you were deep in the gangster life,
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: if you like. Yeah. What was happening at that time?
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  Speaker 2: And you already had a couple of kids already.
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  Speaker 4: By the time I was 17, I had a heroin addiction.
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  Speaker 4: And I went and did 18 months in Odyssey House
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  Speaker 4: in the kids program. And then I got out and
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  Speaker 4: just got straight back into it. None of my issues.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I think some of the issues with therapy,
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  Speaker 4: it's a process, you know, like some of the issues
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: get addressed, but not all of them do. And sometimes
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  Speaker 4: it's a journey. It's not like you're going to go
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  Speaker 4: to a rehab and get cleared of everything. You've got
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  Speaker 4: all these rehabs springing up that are saying, you know,
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  Speaker 4: give us 25 grand for two weeks.
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  Speaker 1: People are selling their houses. People are doing all sorts
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: of things.
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  Speaker 4: And they're given false hope over it because there's no
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  Speaker 4: way someone who's been using all their life, you know,
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  Speaker 4: for 10 years.
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  Speaker 1: Whatever, however many years, that they're going to give up
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  Speaker 1: in two weeks. There's no way that's going to happen.
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  Speaker 4: They're going to be a dry junkie because there's a
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  Speaker 4: lot of issues that are buried underneath that people have
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  Speaker 4: not explored.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, right. So as you say, you came out of
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  Speaker 2: rehab at Odyssey House, very well regarded drug rehab in Sydney,
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  Speaker 2: and went flat out into it. And you, at that time,
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  Speaker 2: I guess you met your then-to-be husband, right?
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, well, no, yeah, okay.
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  Speaker 4: So I met him, I was going to selling drugs down.
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  Speaker 1: Fitzroy Street for a while.
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  Speaker 2: In Melbourne, here in St Kilda?
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  Speaker 1: In Melbourne, yeah, St Kilda, Fitzroy Street.
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  Speaker 4: And then I ran out of drugs and I was
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  Speaker 4: buying more drugs off someone. And the guy got me
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  Speaker 4: to give him his money. There was a group of
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  Speaker 4: us all waiting to score off this guy. And my
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  Speaker 4: husband was in the group of people that had given
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  Speaker 4: him the money. Well, the guy had pulled my husband
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  Speaker 4: aside and said, I'm going to rip everyone off. So
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  Speaker 4: here's your money back, but everyone else is losing theirs.
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  Speaker 4: And he goes, yeah, all right, sweet.
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  Speaker 1: Well, anyway, then he tells me, he says to me,
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  Speaker 1: you've been ripped.
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  Speaker 2: I go, what?
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  Speaker 1: He goes, yeah, there goes your money. I go, okay.
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  Speaker 4: Well, he goes, but you can come for me and
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  Speaker 4: I'll give you a hit if you want. And I said, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: all right, let's go. And so that was it. That
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  Speaker 4: was basically it with him.
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  Speaker 2: And then that began a 10-year relationship in which you
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  Speaker 2: found yourself, right?
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  Speaker 1: No, that was five years actually.
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  Speaker 2: That was five years.
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  Speaker 1: That was five years, yep. So what happened was.
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  Speaker 4: When I went to Sydney with him, I'd already been
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  Speaker 4: busted for some crime. I can't remember whether it was
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  Speaker 4: like this is why I brought my file because I
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  Speaker 4: couldn't remember the date. I mean it says there that
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  Speaker 4: the first charge that I had was possessed firearm.
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  Speaker 1: But, yeah, I remember there being, you know, other crimes.
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  Speaker 1: I thought it was, you know, bringing heroin.
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  Speaker 4: That was the real big thing that I was on
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  Speaker 4: the run for was when I brought heroin into Pentridge
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  Speaker 4: because they see that as really, you know, a serious thing.
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  Speaker 1: So you were bringing it to sell to inmates? I
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  Speaker 1: was simply bringing medication to my husband. No, I was
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: bringing medication to my husband.
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  Speaker 2: Your husband?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I was being a good wife.
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  Speaker 4: Bringing him medication. You know, that's all I was doing.
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  Speaker 4: But I was doing it in a shifty way.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, remember those songs, those... There were two occasions.
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  Speaker 4: Those thongs that had a blue strip in the middle
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  Speaker 4: and then black on both sides.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So they had a strip there.
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  Speaker 4: So I'd cut that with a fine razor blade and
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  Speaker 4: then I'd dig out the thong and then I'd get
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  Speaker 4: the dope, stick it in Glad Wrap, make it all flat,
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  Speaker 4: cut down a syringe, put that in there as well,
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  Speaker 4: wrap it in Glad Wrap, then I'd put one layer
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  Speaker 4: of pepper so the.
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  Speaker 1: Dogs don't smell it.
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  Speaker 3: I see. Right?
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  Speaker 4: So then, anyway, I was really stoned this one time
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  Speaker 4: that I brought this property into the Melbourne City Watch House.
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  Speaker 4: Russell Street it was in those days. But I looked
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  Speaker 4: at the warden and as the warden looked at me,
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  Speaker 4: he showed the other guy and they were looking at
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  Speaker 4: each other going, oh, you know, the roll in the eye.
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  Speaker 4: I thought, well, they've seen, they can see the glue
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  Speaker 4: dripping off the side because I was, you know, too
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  Speaker 4: quick and too careless.
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  Speaker 1: But they let him in anyway. They let it in anyway.
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  Speaker 4: Well, of course, my husband saw that it would be
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  Speaker 4: a problem once he got into Pentridge. So the idiot,
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  Speaker 4: he pulled it apart inside the van and they all
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  Speaker 4: used together in the van on the way into Pentridge, right?
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  Speaker 4: And left the runners and all the other paraphernalia in
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  Speaker 4: the truck. So I get a phone call from Pentridge,
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  Speaker 4: no property for so-and-so, you know.
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  Speaker 1: And so I get there and I said, what's going on?
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  Speaker 1: No property. I'm not to bring property in.
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  Speaker 4: And they said, he said, no, just put anything that
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  Speaker 4: you've got, put it in the locker and then come
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  Speaker 4: and visit me.
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  Speaker 1: It was a box visit. Come and visit me in
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  Speaker 1: the box visit.
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  Speaker 4: And then I'll tell you who I'll give you the name,
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  Speaker 4: who to put it, who to give it to.
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  Speaker 1: Well, of course, it's a huge red light.
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  Speaker 4: You turn up to the Pentridge and you've got to
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  Speaker 4: use a locker to leave your property. No, I don't
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  Speaker 4: want to leave it to anyone yet. Just wait till
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  Speaker 4: after my box visit. I mean, that's a bit sus
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  Speaker 4: in itself. Not only that, they're waiting for me to
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  Speaker 4: come anyway. And not only that, well, this time I'd
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  Speaker 4: thought of another way and I had the jeans and
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: I went to a tailor and I did the same thing.
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  Speaker 4: The flat pack of the hair I'm with wrapped up
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  Speaker 4: with pepper, one layer of pepper.
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  Speaker 1: And I stuck it in a zip inside this part.
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  Speaker 4: The seam, wrapped in again with pepper so you couldn't
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  Speaker 4: smell it.
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  Speaker 1: It was done really well. It was sewed up by
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  Speaker 1: the tailor and everything. You couldn't see anything.
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  Speaker 4: It would have really got in there if it would
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  Speaker 4: have got through the breaks. if it wasn't for the previous,
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  Speaker 4: you know, the fact that my husband had left the thing.
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  Speaker 3: In the van.
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  Speaker 2: You were under suspicion.
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  Speaker 1: So I was already under suspicion.
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  Speaker 4: But I was being, yeah, I was being a dutiful
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  Speaker 4: wife and bringing my husband some medication.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I was doing. But, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So drugs were really the reason that you were with
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  Speaker 2: him and a lot of things that happened were around
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  Speaker 2: drug supply or drug use and the associates and things?
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  Speaker 2: So what was that life like? What was going on?
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  Speaker 1: It was hectic, you know, like sometimes we'd be.
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  Speaker 4: One time we were living in Mentone and, you know,
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  Speaker 4: we got chased by the police and my husband was
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  Speaker 4: playing games with them. He'd slam the brakes on so
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  Speaker 4: the police were nearly up my arse and then he'd
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  Speaker 4: take off really quickly. But at the same time, he
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  Speaker 4: also had like a bag, a pound of heroin or
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: something that he was also trying to hide under the.
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  Speaker 2: The dashboard.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, under the dashboard.
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  Speaker 4: Which that's why he was sort of playing games and that.
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  Speaker 4: But we got to our court. And by that stage,
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  Speaker 4: the police were shooting the tires out and had my
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: husband over the bonnet and cuffs and, you know, roughhousing
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  Speaker 4: around and took the car as well.
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  Speaker 1: And I knew what the dope was in the car.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: I thought, oh, shit.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Anyway, they had the car. The police had the car
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: for three days. I went to pick it up. I
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: went to pick it up.
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  Speaker 4: Three days later, there was a busted tire, two busted tires.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: And I asked the policeman, can you help me with,
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: I was really nice to them. I said to them,
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: can you help me put the tyre back in? He said, no,
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  Speaker 4: fuck you. I go, yeah, all right, that's really nice
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: of you. And then, so I did the tyres all myself.
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: That was the first time I've ever changed tyres on
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  Speaker 4: my own and I did it.
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  Speaker 1: I'm impressed.
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  Speaker 4: That's good. So I did those two tyres and I
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: drove to the supermarket, put my hand down, bang, found
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: it straight away.
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  Speaker 1: Found the drug straight away. There was 10 police. that
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  Speaker 1: couldn't find it. They tore it all down. And I
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: found it straight away. One good, I became very good
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: at finding drugs. I found a lot of stashes.
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  Speaker 4: I'd probably be killed if they, if the people found out.
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: Because I was finding, you know, ounce bags of heroin,
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  Speaker 4: you know, like undiluted and.
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  Speaker 2: Stuff. So the husband was very happy that day.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: He was very happy.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: He'd be looking at a significant stretch for that bag.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: He was.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So he was he was dealing on a pretty big scale.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: What he was doing was, yeah, on a pretty big scale.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, we had the coffee shop, so we had
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: the gambling and we had the dope and we had
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: someone selling drugs for us as well. And well, you know,
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: he'd go and pick like he left me as He
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: actually left me as collateral once. You know, he went
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: to pick up a bag, like an ounce bag of dope.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: He left me there as collateral. What do you mean? Oh, because,
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: you know, like they gave it to him on credit.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: They gave him the dope on credit.
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  Speaker 2: And you were left there?
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  Speaker 1: I was left there on collateral, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: For how long?
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  Speaker 1: I think it was a couple of days and then
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: he came to pick me up. I can't remember exactly but.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: So he was going to go off and offload the
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: dope and bring the cash back and then you were
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: more as a hostage?
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: How did you feel about that?
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Well, shit, wasn't it? Yeah. It wasn't very nice. I mean, I, yeah.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Did you love this man?
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I've never loved any man. I've never loved any woman.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: I've never loved any man. I've never fallen in love.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: You know, I've been obsessed or I've been intrigued or
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: I've been, you know, like, but not love.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: And I think for me it was.
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: you know, I needed drugs and he was a drug
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: dealer at the time.
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  Speaker 1: So that was it.
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  Speaker 2: It was a practical relationship.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: It was a practical relationship.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: How much were you using back then?
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: At one point I was using five grams a day.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: Five grams of heroin a day in those days was
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: about over a thousand dollars a day. I ended up
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: in Pentridge and just basically in the top tier, like
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: one of the top cells and just vomited and vomited
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: and just like for three days and it was like
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: the lights were on the walls were extremely white it
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: was no television in those days unless you were there
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: for a long.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Time you're doing you know you had to buy your
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: own stuff whatever.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: And yeah it was a tough time you know and
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: also the you know like I mean from memory and
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: I don't know how much of this was you know
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: like a fictionalized version of my memory or if it was.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Like a bit of psychosis.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: Sometimes, you know, some of the events that have happened
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: to me, well, some of that was psychosis. Some of
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: that was very real, but some of that was psychosis.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: And I had this experience where I could just hear
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: the clamouring in the cells and the unrest, the constant,
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: the screaming. It was like living, it was like you're
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: in hell. It's like all of this distress, all of
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: this distress, Everyone is going through something horrible, you know.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: And you're also strung out because you haven't had any heroin.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and my whole bed was basically, I was on
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: the bed, and the whole bed was shaking. So it
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: was like, but it was probably part of that was
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: probably a psychosis, but it was like there was some
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: entity there, some dark entity that was kind of doing that.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I remember that very clearly.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: So how was your relationship with your husband, Victor? It
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: was a practical relationship. Was he good to you?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Well, he wasn't bad to me. He wasn't really bad
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: But he was like he'd go to the Turkish shop,
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: he'd get 10 videos, he'd have his bag of dope
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: on the table, his spoon, his.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Water, and he'd just be whack, whack, whack smoking.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: He'd always buy new clothes every week because he'd always
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: drop his cigarettes on his clothes.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: When he knotted off. Burn his clothes.
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: That's one of the things that happened.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: He was holding my son, a junk.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and he was on the nod and the cigarette
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: fell on my son and my son started screaming.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: So I grabbed it. What are you doing? Grabbed the baby,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: tried to, you know, put some ointment on and stuff.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Well, the story that my mum ends up telling him
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: when she looks after him is that your mum and
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: dad just butt cigarettes out on you. So, you know,
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: like that's part of, you know, like I had all
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: this kind of stuff.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, there's a lot going on. and you've got
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: people coming over, you had someone overdosed in the house
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: and died?
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. Some guy, yeah, a guy died and my
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: husband wouldn't let me open the door to the police
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: or the ambulance. And the police saw me a couple
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: of weeks later in the park and basically said that,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: you know, they apologised that they couldn't kind of get
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: him for They knew that I was going through psychological
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: warfare basically, living with a man like that. The shovel
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: in the closet that I was reminded about that I
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: was going to be digging my own grave with and everything.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Was he violent with you? He was scary. He wasn't
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: really violent. I mean, maybe not really.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: But the psychological torture of having the shovel in the
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: cupboard there.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: And the idea was if you gave him up or something,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: you'd be digging your own grave. Is that the message?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't even giving me up. It wasn't even
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: It was just a thing there and there wasn't any
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: reason why I was going to be doing it. He
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: was good at playing. He'd done a lot of time
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: in jail. He was good at playing mind games. A
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: lot of this, you know, mind games can be very torturous.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And so that was a control relationship that revolved around
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: fear and drugs, basically.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: And you're estranged from your family at this time, so
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you've got nowhere to go.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, my dad came out and he came
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: out to see us, but didn't stay for long.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, I was, yeah, I had no one else.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: I was, though at the beginning I used to pay
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: for my brother and sister to come to visit us because...
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: You know, we had a lot of money. We had
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: a Lotus Elite, had some nice cars, had a lot
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: of cash, had a lot of gold, you know, had
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: all that stuff. So I was giving, you know, I
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: was just, I'd give all of my nine carat, 14
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: carat gold, I'd give them for presents to people and
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: all the 18 carats I'd keep myself.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: All the good stuff I'd keep myself. But I was giving,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I was giving a jewellery away because it was 14
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: carat or nine carat. I didn't want that. I didn't
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: want that shit.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: And all the while this is going on, there's a
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: shovel in the cupboard to remind you of how things
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: can go really bad really quickly.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: So you're living, walking on eggshells. Yeah. Even if you're
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: doing it on very expensive shoes.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: And even if like when he brought someone home and
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: they'd start smoking dope or everything and then things would
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: get deeper. And it was almost like he'd play with
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: somebody else over me and try and get me afraid
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: about this or that. You know, like, this is going
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: to happen to you, that's going to happen to you.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: There was that.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: There was also when, you know, my husband disappeared off
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: the face of the earth and then we didn't know
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: whether it was the police or the criminals.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: So what happened? One day he just disappeared?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I was in fairly prison at the time.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: For what?
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: I'd just been shanghaied from, I'd just done time in Malawa.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Guns or deception or something like that.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Fraud, thumbing.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: And because I used to walk into banks and just
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: pretend I was someone else and just take out money.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I was just.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: What, with credit cards or checks?
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, with credit cards. Yeah, in those days you'd just
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: get them out of the mailbox or whatever, credit cards.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: If you'd steal something from someone.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: And go in and disguise. I mean, I always thought
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: I was a really good disguise artist, but.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: I actually had this massive wig on and everyone could
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: tell that I had this wig on.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: You know, when you look back, how stupid was I?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: You were pretty good all around then, weren't you? Guns, drugs,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: credit cards, checkbooks, deception. You know, you were a career criminal,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I guess you would say, at that time, yeah? So
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: you were in family at the time and Victor's not.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: He's still in Sydney continuing his business.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: He's still in Sydney continuing to do his business and
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: then just before I got out, I think it was
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: about 1987 from memory, like that's putting all the pieces together.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: So 1987, I had this vision of the black and
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: the red. And he used to say to me, the
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: only thing that I don't know is when I'm going
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: to die. Because he caught me out a few times
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: when I said I was going somewhere and I wasn't.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: So he used to say that he knows everything and
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: the only thing I don't know. But I heard those
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: words in Pentridge at the time when I had this
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: vision of the black and red blotch and the words,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: my husband's.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Words, the only thing I don't know is when I'm
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: going to die. And his actual voice.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: And then, yeah, I got out of jail and there
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: was this guy, this guy who was a friend of
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: his who was also like pretty much in the scene.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: He ended up getting his head blown off. Anyway.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: But he said to me not to go anywhere near
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: back to Sydney or don't start asking any questions because
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: then you'll be next. and and you know like he
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: didn't tell me anymore there was some it was a
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: long because it was such a long time ago there
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: was some talk afterwards that my mum said that there
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: was a watch that he left me that I identified
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: as my husband's watch but I'm not sure I never
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: I can't see that watch I don't remember it I
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: don't see anything about it there was Half truth, you know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: my mum would like to kind of sensationalise things.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Well, that's fair enough.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: So he disappears, no trace, no body, no nothing.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: Then I end up here in Melbourne, no trace, no body,
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: no nothing, no, I get warnings not.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: To go looking for him.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: I went back to Sydney to pick up 10 grand
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: off someone had a virus and mum sent me up
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: with a bodyguard and, But, yeah, that's.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: All we've got. Because you were aware that he was
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: paying police up there for protection. It was a pretty
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: dangerous time to be paying police.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: It was round about the time of the Royal Commission.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Woodward Royal Commission. Yeah. The Wood Royal Commission.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, round about that time. My brother was playing McDrury.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: This bit is important because it got me a little
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: bit confused because I didn't know if it was one
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: of those cops.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Rogerson or if it was.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: The Crimms and I didn't know who they were and
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: it was very similar.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: And I was also friends with Debbie Huckstep, who was
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: Sally Ann Huckstep's sister, right, who was Warren Lamb Franchi's wife, basically.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: And so I was in all of that.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: So for me that was a very real possibility that
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: could have happened to him, right.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: My dad wrote to.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: the consul, his consul from this other country that he
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: comes from and, you know, and wrote to the police and,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: you know, basically to establish, so what's my status now?
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: What am I?
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Am I a widow? What help am I going to
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: get with these children and all the rest?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: These were his children?
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, two children to him.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: So you're left, you don't know where you're at. You've
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: got a husband who's been tied up with corrupt police,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: with crooks, gangsters. He's disappeared, probably murdered. What are you
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: thinking at this time?
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: So for some time I was a little bit psychotic actually.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I'd had some drugs.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: I remember going up to Geelong or Corio around that
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: area and I was just walking into places and grabbing,
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: oh yeah, this passport will do, I'll use this one.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: I was extremely frightened that the police were actually chasing
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: me and wanted to kill me and I was hitchhiking
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: at that stage and I got picked up by these
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: guys who were, you know, shady in some ways and
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: God knows who they were but anyway, one thing led
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: to another and there was a lot of talk between
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: them and there was suspicion on my behalf and I
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: also was paranoid because of, you know, having just come
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: out of jail and being told that my husband had been,
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: you know, is gone now and And you better keep
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: your head down because they'll go for you next, you know.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: So they were saying that you might be paranoid but
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: there might also be people who genuinely want to get you.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. I think there's a mixture.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's hard to see what's real and what's
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: not at this moment.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: So I ended up in this petrol station and I
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: jumped out of the car, left all my shit in
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: their car.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: Jumped out of the car, went up to the fire
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: extinguisher and grabbed her. Those guys, don't you fucking come
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: near me.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to let this go. So I was getting
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: ready to let that. So they pissed off. They were,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: you know, this chick's mad, nuts, whatever. I ended up, I.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Around there I stole a car and it was like
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: a shift on the side, a handle shift.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: You threw it on the tree?
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: I wasn't used to it. Going from gear to gear.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: Ended up in this marsh. It was a marsh with
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: all this shit and, of course, I was in there
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: hiding because I thought, you know, they're after me and
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: they're going to kill me. Yeah, and some of it
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: was psychosis but I think there was a degree of
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: it that was true and, like you said, because, you know, like,
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: what had happened earlier.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the potential was there, you know.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: But what happened was.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And I guess people would, and that's the thing, we
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: talked about this earlier, that the good crooks are very
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: careful not to tell their wives everything because one day
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: the wives might tell the truth about them. And there's
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: always that suspicion possibly from your husband's enemies or police
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: or whoever that what does she know?
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: And I guess she did know some things.
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: But I knew no one's, you know, one of the,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: actually it's one of the things that saved me that
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: I knew no one's names because I.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Would have Talked about it.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: So he did you a favour like that?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Definitely. Yeah, I feel like, you know, I was really protected.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I was really protected by not knowing people.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, and even nowadays if someone says to me,
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: you know, they say, I don't know anyone.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know these actors. I don't know who they are.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I only know.
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: People who I talk to day to day.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know anything about that.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: So you're in this disordered state and your husband's gone
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and you're in Victoria and you're still committing offences.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: So I just come out of the swamp, back into
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: the petrol station, on the phone to Brunswick police because
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: I was shitting myself and I thought I'm going to
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: hand myself in because maybe the police can protect.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Me, right?
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Right. Because there was, like, I was just, like, backed
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: into a corner.
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: So anyway, the first thing I said to them when
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: they brought me to the station, I said to them,
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: you know, just give me.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: A hot shot and that's it. Just don't, you know,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: if you're going to kill me.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're going to kill me, just, no, if
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: you're going to kill me, just give me a hot
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: shot and then we'll forget about it all, you know.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: And I just thought, well, there's no way. They're going
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: to let me live now.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: So.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: This woman comes in. She's a nurse. She was a
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: police nurse, gloves on. I'd never seen a nurse like this.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: And she comes up to me. She's got a syringe.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: She's checking.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: She wants to check all of my needle marks in
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: my arms and my legs.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: She wants to check them all.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: I'm going, I'm thinking to myself, this woman is checking
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: me because she's got this syringe in her hand of
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: hot shot that she's going to give me. She just
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: wants to make sure that I actually am a drug
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: addict so that way she won't get blamed or the
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: police won't get blamed for any malpractice.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Or murder.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Or murder, right? So that was very real.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: The nurse came in and checked me out and had
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: their gloves and this and that and the other, and
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: then I end up going back to Brunswick.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Police with this syringe. Well, of course, the police, as
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: soon as I got to Brunswick, gave me a cup
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: of coffee, right?
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: But I started drinking the coffee and I'm feeling like
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: I'm starting to crash, right?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking, yeah, they've put something in my coffee, right?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: So I'm not drinking the coffee anymore.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: And I've stayed in the cells that night and then
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: I don't remember what happened, but that was a really
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: scary time.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: And so you're still a heroin addict.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Back then, yeah.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: And you're able to find drugs. How did you survive
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: at this point? You're just doing your best, stealing, fraud, deceptions. Yeah.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Stealing, fraud, deceptions.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: There was some really good, in those days there was
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: some really good cough syrup that had morphine in it
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: that we'd get. There was some bits and pieces that
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: you could get from chemists But apart from that, I
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: always end up finding something, you know.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: To use.
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: For me, it was always like something to calm me
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: down because, you know, like you've either got people who
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: are attracted to poisons that bring you up, that actually
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: give you a high, and then there's other drugs that
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: will relax you or, you know, like heroin, morphine, all
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: those opiates, they're going to relax you, whereas drugs, the
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: speed or the ice or the cocaine, whatever, all similar
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: type of class drugs.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: And you found the opiates were your drug of choice.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: Yes, because I was already very, yeah, I was already very, like, speedy.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: I was already naturally speedy, so now I need to
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: slow down.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: And some adrenaline going on as well in these difficult,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: dangerous situations, and the heroin seemed to be a way
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: to dampen yourself down.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Sleep as well, I guess. Yeah. Things like that.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: So this goes on for a couple of years post
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: your husband vanishing, yeah?
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. To tell you the truth, timeframes are pretty skewed.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I get it. But you were going back into custody
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: as well in this period as well?
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I ended up back in custody, in and out
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: of jail so many times, 13 times in and out
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: of jail.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: So how much.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Time did you spend over your.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: The longest time was 12 months, right? Right.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: But the.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: So the longest whack was 12 months, which is probably
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: the easiest stretch that I did. All the other shorter stretches,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: three months, six months, et cetera, were all quite difficult
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: because you go in there and you lose everything that
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: you have. Like you've got, say you've got an apartment
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: or something and anything that you'd saved up or anything
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: that you'd accumulated or, you know, everything ends up disappearing.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: And then you know, to back out with a $ 300,
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: I can't remember, I don't know how much it is
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: these days, a $ 300 check or whatever from Centrelink and
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: off you go.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And what are you going to do with that money?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: You've got to score.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's the first thing that you do because,
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: you know, everything's too overwhelming. It was overwhelming for me
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: to walk into Centrelink on my own. You know, I
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: was like, shit, everyone's like giants here. It's like I
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: was feeling overwhelmed about that.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: And you accumulated over your... time, more than 500 charges. Yeah,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: about 538, I think.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: It was, yeah.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: And 13 times in jail.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: How did you find jail overall? Did you survive in there?
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I survived, yeah.
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, when I was doing long periods of time,
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: I always got really good jobs. I worked in the kitchen,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: I was working in the garden, I used the tractor stuff.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: I'd always get decent jobs.
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: But, you know, if I was there for a short
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: period of time, there was always something that I was
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: going to be, you know, there was always someone that
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: I was going to step in over. You know, like
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: this one poor girl comes in and she got her
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: runners taken off her. And that's the very first thing
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: they did, take her runners off her. And then they
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: come into the cell, into the unit, and they say,
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: we're so-and-so because we're going to bash her.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I said, no, you're not.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: You practically broke her back over her shoes. If she
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: has like an accident or something happens, then she is
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: likely to become paraplegic, so it's not going to happen.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And who says?
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: I say.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: And righty, I was sitting here like this, trying not
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to be, you know, intimidating. I say like this.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: And there's 10 girls all standing around. And then she goes,
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: you've come that close.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: And so I stood up. By that stage, I stood
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: up and they all shuffled out. And that was it.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Because you're not a big person. You're not an intimidating
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: looking person. But you had to have that front. And
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: you saw a lot of violence. We were talking before
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: about psychological scars, but you've got physical scars as well.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Some of them you did acquire in jail.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: What were the kind of things you went through?
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, you know, stabbed, get stabbed, you know, like knit
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: lotion in the microwave oven, all heated up and then
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: thrown on you.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Sorry?
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Prison napalm, I think they call it.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, you know, like a few broken noses. I
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: gave a few broken noses too. I mean, you know, like,
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, I got into fights. A lot of the
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: fights I won, the fights that I didn't win, I
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: didn't hit back because out of principle, it was misunderstandings.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: I wasn't going to hit back. Also, depending on who
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: it is, if you've got a young 18-year-old in there
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: who wants to have a go at you and she's
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: got like half the jail.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: As her aunties and uncles.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: then you haven't got a chance against her, no matter
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: if you win the fight or not, it doesn't matter,
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: you're going to end up copying her.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: So of course.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Sort of going to back up on you afterwards.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't, like, you've got to think about it and,
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: you know, cut your losses in that situation, because it's like,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to go up against.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: All of you guys, you know. But, yeah.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: So you have to learn to be tough.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, I think I've always, I was
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: always extremely shy, but.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: When I had my experience with God, I became assertive. Really?
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Because we'll get to that because you had this period
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: from like 87 when your husband disappears. For a couple
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: of years, you're in and out of custody. You're going
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: flat out. You're on your own trying to survive doing
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: your best. And somehow God comes into your life. What happened?
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: So I was just in a bad way and wanting
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: to score so I was stealing I was going to
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: steal you know clothes or whatever I don't know what
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know I had something some stolen property and
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: my mum said oh look there's the neighbor has been
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: around here and they've said that that they think that
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: God's calling you and that you should come to church
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: with them and I said oh I laughed about it
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: and I didn't believe I said and my mum was
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: kind of under her breath you know like rolling her
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: eyes and stuff I go all right well So I've
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: gone around there and I've said, okay, let's do a trade-off.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: If you buy this dress off me, I'll come to
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: church with you. And they said, yeah, okay, come to
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: church first.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: So they got me to church. So they got me
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: to church. I'm there with my feet up on the thing.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: With you, yeah?
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, with my slurpee, like, everyone's looking at me.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Who is this? You're saying, who, what are you looking at?
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: What are you looking at? What are you looking at?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: No, I wasn't. I was pretty shy, so I wouldn't
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: tell people what you're looking at.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: But you exuded a kind of arrogance and kind of like,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: don't fuck with me kind of. Not then. Okay.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Not then. I do now, but not then.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Okay.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: So you get that first, and what was that like?
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: What was that feeling like? You said, well, I'm just
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: here to sell the dress.
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, I just thought, well, actually I
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: got into the church and there was just a real.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: It felt like God was speaking directly to me.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: He was talking about the woman at the well who
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: was like the woman at the well was, she was
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: an outcast, right?
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And she had many husbands. She was an outcast.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: And so Jesus went there to speak to her in
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: the heat of the day. The heat of the day
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: is not when all the good women went out there.
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: The good women all went out in the morning when
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: it was still cool and they'd collect their water when
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: it was cool. All the bad girls had to go
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: out in the heat of the day. So this bad
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: girl was there, the Samaritan woman. and said to Jesus,
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: do you.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Want some water? And he said, well, if you would've
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: asked me, I.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: Would've given you water that would quench your soul, and
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: this big hole in my soul. And that was it,
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: something happened to me, and it was just like God
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: was speaking directly to me. Everyone's faces turned into these
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: demonic creatures, everyone around me, because it became a scene
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: of back 2,000 years, where the cross is, that place
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: of the cross, because I was there in front of
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: the cross.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: On Calvary.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: On Calvary. And I was looking directly at Jesus' eyes.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: He was looking directly in my eyes.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: And there was every demon on her in hell, of course,
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: trying to get him down. Every demon that ever was,
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: every demon that was at that time, and every demon that.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Ever will be was there.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: And I had to walk the gauntlet straight through all
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: these demons. to get to and I just kept my
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: eyes on Jesus and I just thought I know you're
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: stronger than I know you've beat all these guys so
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: I know you've beat everyone I know that you are
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: the king I know that you have the power I
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: know that you've done this so I'm looking straight at
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: you and that was it they all fell away and
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: then I got lifted up into this space where just
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: beautiful light colours colours in the trees lights around everything
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: that's alive you know just started to see you know
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: I was just And this.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Is one visit to church?
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Well, no.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: So I've entered in other bits and pieces that was
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: part of that.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: So when you start going to church, these are the
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: sort of things you're going through. And, like, you've not
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: felt this kind of comfort or solace or love or
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: concern forever, ever since you were a kid?
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: No.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Ever since with my dad or when I
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: go to it.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Sorry.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: Well... Yeah, I mean, it's like I said, I was
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: feeling extremely shameful and guilty. I wasn't feeling like I
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: was a part of society anymore. I couldn't look at
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: anyone in the eyes when I talked. I was extremely shy.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: I was feeling so guilty.
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: And the one very kind of material thing that happened
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: to me is that I was relieved of my guilt
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: and shame.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: I was relieved of my guilt and shame. I became...
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I became.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: And you'd literally, you talk about Jesus and the demons,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: you'd literally been through the valley with the demons in
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: your own life. Yeah. You know, because that's the thing
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: in that world. You can't really trust anybody. You've got
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: to look out for yourself. People are always worried about
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: being given up or stabbed in the back or physically hurt,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: you know. You tried to take your own life at
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: a certain point before this, hadn't you?
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: And I saw the scar on your forearm there and
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you tried the serious way. You went this way and
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: up your arm.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: You wanted to die. What saved you, do you think?
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: Well, I'd already had an experience with God and I
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: was three years with God and then I had that
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: 12 years of backsliding. So I think in a sense
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: during that time I was saving my partner from so
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: many things, from death. I saved him a couple of
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: times from getting bashed and killed and stuff, and I'd
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: jump in.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: The middle and save him.
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, I know it can be foolish, but it's
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: just a gut reaction of mine. If I see somebody
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: getting hurt, if I don't do something about it, I
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: won't be able to sleep. Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: I want to be able to sleep at night.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: And this was the father of your children.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: So there was a strong connection.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So where were your children at this point?
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: My mum had them.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, my mum had a couple of my children and
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: my last child, she didn't want anything to do with
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: the father, so he went off straight away into foster care.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: I kept seeing him every six weeks and, you know,
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: continued to see him every six weeks.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: So you go from flat out as a criminal... Yeah...
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: getting out of jail, you're suddenly in Bible college.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Which is great. It's fantastic. It was beautiful.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: It was like I was just like on this, it
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: was like I was just constantly stoned, you know, but
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: not stoned like off drugs. Like it was a high,
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: it was a high from God. It was a real
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: high from God. So, and it was great. And I
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: was hungry to learn and learnt so much during those
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: three years. Had a really good teacher. We had just
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: about every kickboxer in Melbourne come into the church.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It was like growing rapidly. Miracles happening there all the time.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: There's people that have gone out everywhere who have started
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: churches in various different places as a result.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: But it started to become like more.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: Of a, self-development class more than anything when it started
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: to become a self-development thing when it started to become
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: like a prosperity driven doctrine that you're the promise of
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: abraham you should own all of the cattle on the
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: hill and.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: All the hills and blah, blah.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: God wants you to be rich.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's when, yeah, well, that's when it's like, nah,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: you're starting to lose me now.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: This is about something a lot more profound than anything,
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: you know, that you can own or owning. It ends
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: up being something very deep in the soul that's a personal,
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: that becomes a personal relationship that's more, that's worth more
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: than anything that you can find.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Of course it is. Of course it is. And I
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: think one of the, Key thing is you're off heroin
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: by this time, I'm assuming, right? So one of the
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: big challenges that I've registered with people getting off those
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: sort of drugs is how do you replace the high,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: the joy, right? And the world seems black and white
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: and two-dimensional without the high of drugs. So you were
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: finding that joy through your relationship with God.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think one of the most difficult things coming
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: off drugs is is not only the physical withdrawal, but
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: I guess like in a sense you're trying to work out, okay,
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: so for 20 years I've been getting up in the
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: morning and going out and committing crimes. What am I
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: going to do now with my life? You know, like
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: how am I going to shape this life? How will
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: I replace all of these habits that I have? One
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: thing that happened to me when I got out of jail,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: that last lagging for escaped police custody, for which I've never,
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: ever been back to jail.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: And I've never had anything wrong, like never.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: Done anything wrong since then, apart from a couple of
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: driving fines or whatever. So since then, the temptation for
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: heroin just completely dispelled and disappeared.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: So I've never had any temptation for that stuff again.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: So since that time, since 2004.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Well, let's roll back a little bit because you're in
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the Bible college now In the.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: 80s, into the 90s? 89, yeah.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: But your criminal career wasn't quite over.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: No.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: So you had one foot in one camp, the other
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: foot in another.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: So I did two and a half years Bible study
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: and then one of my court cases caught up with
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: me for sawn-off 22, sawn-off 12 gauge, and we had
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: some bullets in there, we had gloves, we had overalls,
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: we had balaclavas.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And we were going up the mountains to shoot birds.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not the bank on the way.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, so I got in the courthouse and they
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: asked me to swear on the Bible. And at that
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: point I was extremely passionate about this conversion.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Experience I'd had.
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: So I started preaching in the Thomas court. Do you
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: believe what's in this Bible? You're asking me to swear
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: on the Bible.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Do you believe what's written in this Bible? Do you believe?
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: That people can be redeemed and there is change and
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: that's exactly what's happened to me.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Anyway.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: But also the oath goes the truth, the whole truth,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: nothing but the truth.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: That now has a real resonance with you, I'd imagine.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: Well, I think the truth is part of God's character.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: So once God infuses his character into you, which is
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: basically what happens at the time of the new birth,
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: then you get that written on your heart.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: It's basically like you get that, you know, you... But
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I think I've always been... It's the hound of heaven.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: I've always been hounded by heaven. And until I submit
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: to heaven, they're not going to let me go.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: They're not going to let me go.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And this is very inconvenient for a criminal because
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: you have to tell lies. You have to bear false witness.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: And now your heart's telling you something different. And I
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: guess there's a conflict going on to a certain extent
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: over those years, yeah?
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: Well, look, I've never, yeah, I've never malignantly, you know,
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: put somebody in jail. I did put someone in jail
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: for rape and, of course, I was following the criminal
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: code as well because at one point.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I thought that it was really important to do so.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: So you've got a few old matters catching up with you? Yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: And you do some more jail in that period?
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah.
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I had, so I went, I testified in the dock,
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: then I went home to sleep that night and that's,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: I had a vision that I was going, that there
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: was dry bones in the jail that were, you know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: and that I was going in.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: For mission, basically. It was a mission.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: So anyway, I went in and actually there's a couple
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: of girls who were still touched by that. very encounter
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: that they had with me on that occasion when I
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: went into jail so and their lives have completely changed
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: they're living straight clean lives after doing murders and stuff
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: you know so or manslaughter whatever yeah because these things
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: don't happen overnight and people so yes I ended up
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: doing that time in jail and then I got out
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: and there was still I got my son back by
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: that stage I got my son back they came back
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: with a bottle of champagne they said we've never done
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: this before But we've seen the change in your life, blah, blah.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: And he's going to.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Come out of the water of the stage. You can
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: have him back. They came back with a bottle of champagne.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: Mum got me, well, we had to have a transitional
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: conference within which mum said that I didn't have any money.
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: I didn't have a job. I didn't have any money.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: I couldn't give him opportunities. And I said, yeah, well,
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: you're right. So she said, well, I think you'd be
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: better off with me in that case. and he's got
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: his friends with me and he's got his routine with
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: me and blah, blah.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: So I said, yeah, all right, yeah.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: I thought it would have been nice had she said,
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: you know, okay, look, I'll help you keep him or
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: we can do this together or something like that.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: But no, it was just like pushed me out.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: But it was a step in the right direction.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: It was a step in the right direction.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: What about your other two kids?
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: My other two.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: Kids, my daughter, I had a pretty good relationship with
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: her and we're building it up again now.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: My son, my mum made her will.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Just, you know, obviously for me, my brother and my
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: sister got very annoyed at me because he said that
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: I persuaded my mother to make the will like that
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: and that he should have been included in it and
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: what mother would do something like this to her child
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: and and that I was the worst thing that's happened
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: to him and that I've given him all this stuff.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all that family stuff, yeah?
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and all the stuff that my mum's told and
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: this half-fruits that really make me look.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Like a shocking, horrible person.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Well, let's face it, you were doing some pretty bad
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: things back then.
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was doing bad things, but I was doing
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: bad things. I never hurt a child, never hurt old people, never,
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: you know, I think one assault was.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: You know, like with a clean syringe straight out of
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: the pack, the person felt.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Threatened and I didn't even pin them with it. The
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: person felt threatened so I got done for assault. Okay.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: I had to explain all that when I got my
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: working with children check.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: So, you know, we can dwell on the detail of
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: jail and violence and drugs and things, but I think
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: we've got the whole picture here.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: But you've got this period through the 90s into the
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: early 2000s And I guess we can say you closed
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: the door on all that around about 2004. Is that fair?
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: 2004 I got out and that was the last time.
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: The charge was escape police custody and I've never been
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: back since.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: And I thought, yes, what a great charge to go
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: out on. I mean, I'm released now.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: You better tell that story. What happened?
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: Well, it was, okay, so escape police, yeah.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: I was in Seymour, just got, well, actually, I'd gone
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: down to past Seymour to a rehabilitation, Christian rehabilitation. And
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: I brought this girl with me who was going to
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: go back and, you know, basically stay in my house
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: while I was in rehab. The people at the rehab
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: persuaded her to stay as well. And she was saying
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: how she was the worship singer and she was this
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: and that. Well, anyway, they started to sort of persuade
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: her to stay there. at the place she wasn't ready
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: to do rehab she didn't want to do rehab the
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: next day she turned on me she said you better
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: get us a fucking cigarettes we haven't even got a
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: cigarette here you know dying so i've jumped the fence
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: and got stole their marijuana and a big bag of
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: coins okay and um and so i think we had
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: about 200 bucks or something was shitty it was just
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: ridiculous shitty it was a caravan it was anyway It
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: doesn't make it right.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: I understand that now, but it was just, yeah, something
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: Anyway, got on the train at that place and headed
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: down towards Seymour.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: And, of course, once we get to Seymour, we were
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: supposed to ring up.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: The drug dealer and set it all up and, you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: walking towards the phone box with this bag and there's
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: these cops coming towards us and she's gone to me
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: and my friend's gone to me.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, they're coming after us. I'm going, just relax. Just
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: keep walking, pretend nothing's happening. It's all right.
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: Well, of course, they did come after us and they
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: grabbed us and they brought us back to the station.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: And brought us downstairs. And then in the morning, of course,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: we went to court. We went to court.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: And there's this little pokey little room that's near.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: The courthouse for lawyers to talk to.
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: So a lawyer was in there talking to us and said,
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: you know, like, you're not going to get out.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: You're not going to get bailed. There's no way that
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: you're going to get out. And I said, what?
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: And I said, well, what's through that door over there?
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: And he goes, don't even think about it. And I'm
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: looking at my friend and I.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Said, I'm going to go out that door. I don't
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: know what's through that door.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go out that door.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: Anyway, I didn't say anything because there was a two
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: policemen standing right at the door watching us, right?
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: But they were standing with their back towards us. They
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: were looking the other way.
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: And there was the lawyer that had briefly gone out
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: to the administration desk, right, to get something.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: So I'm out of here. So I've grabbed my, so
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: what I look like, my hair was all messy and everything.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: I was all excited.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Shoved my coat under my arm and walked through that door.
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: And that door was the court, the courthouse. And there
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: was one guy sitting in the courthouse with a translator.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: And he looked at me and he goes, are you
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: a lawyer? I go, yep. I just walked out.
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: There I am.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I've just been in the cells all night, grubby clothes.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: And I just ran. ran and I saw.
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: This and I thought the dogs the dogs I thought
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: straight away I saw this pickup truck and it had
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: cow manure in the back of it I jumped in
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: the cow manure.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: And I just covered myself with my jacket and.
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: There's police and dogs and everything looking for me everywhere
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: then I started thinking I was there for about two hours.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Started getting cold but I also started thinking.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: So I've got two lots of charges for possession of firearms.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: They're going to have me on the newspaper. They're going
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: to say that she's armed and dangerous. They're going to
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: kill me on sight. And my kids are going to
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: see it on TV. And that's what was flashing in
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: front of me. And I thought, oh, well, stuff it.
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: I'm going to give this up. There was a truck
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: with the engine running. I'm thinking, should I grab the
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: truck and just take off down the street? I go, no,
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: it's going to that's going to be such a red light.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: And I'm going to get, and I've never driven a
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: truck before. So I don't, I don't even know how
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: I'm going to do that.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: I would have tried it.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: You would have had a go.
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I would have had a go, but I
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: was thinking about all of the things that would happen
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: as a result.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: And I thought, no, that's not a good idea. So
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: I jumped in the truck anyway, because.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: I was hanging out for a cigarette and he had
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: cigarettes in his side thing. So I grabbed a cigarette,
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: lit it up and the truck was still going. And
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: I said, Hi, I've just taken a cigarette. I just
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: need a lift up the road.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: The truckie came back now. Yeah, the truckie came back.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: He looked at me and he shit himself. And I said,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: I just need a lift up the road. It's not,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: you know, and I've only taken one cigarette. That's, you know,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, anyway.
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: Anyway, so he looked behind and, of course, there's still
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: police rushing around everywhere. And by this stage, I'd basically
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: given myself up. I was giving myself up. I just
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: wanted to get a cigarette. And I thought maybe I'll
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: get a chance to get a lift down the road
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: where I can score first before I get locked up.
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: And so, yeah, the police got me, flicked the cigarette
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: out of my hand, brought me downstairs into the police station.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: Two women sitting on the thing, stripping me right off,
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: having me in the corner.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: She's sitting there swinging her legs like that. I'm just here.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: She won't give me back my clothes and I'm just
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: sitting there. I'm just standing there. And she's berating me. Oh,
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: what do you think? You're a scumbag. How about your children?
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: How about this and that?
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: She's trying to, you know, make me feel like all
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: ashamed and everything.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Or she's, you know.
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: Anyway, I just got up, looked in her eyes.
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: And I just grabbed my clothes and just kept staring
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: her out and put my clothes back on.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: She didn't move a muscle.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: And then she put me in the cell. No food,
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: no blankets, no what do you call it? Then we
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: get in the, you know, like the mattress.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: No mattresses. No girlfriend.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: My girlfriend had to go in the other cell. I
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: couldn't talk to the other guy. I wasn't allowed cigarettes, nothing.
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: She goes, you get nothing now, nothing. You stay here
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: with nothing. Well, thankfully the van came soon. But when
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: we went to court the next day, once they got
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: me into court, it was like the courthouse was, with
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: police of course because they had the whole police force
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: out looking for me but they.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Weren't letting you go a second time.
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: No but I think they were all just pissed off
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: or wanted to ogle me who is this person and
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: also because I sounded like a psychopath because the first
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: thing I asked them was what was going through my
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: mind in the first place I said to them So
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: would you put me on TV and would you have
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: talked about me having previous charges of firearms and what
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: would have happened? And then would I have been on
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: TV and all of that would have happened? Because I
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: was just trying to work out whether what I was
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: imagining was true. He looked at me like, huh, because
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: he thought straight away you're a megalomaniac or a psychopath
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: or you want to be on TV, you want to
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: be notorious or whatever.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be on TV, but I just
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: wanted to reassure myself.
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: That I hadn't given myself up for nothing at that
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: point in time because it was just the.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, at that point in time I was still hanging out.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: I was still, you know, in this cycle.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Your thought patterns weren't necessarily logical, you know, a bit irrational,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: maybe a little bit paranoid.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like give me some... Yeah, give me some.
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: No, I wasn't paranoid at that stage. I mean, I
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: think when I was hanging out in.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: The back of that truck with that cow shit.
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: I was thinking of all of the different possibilities and
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: all of the different things that could happen in this
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: situation and I was thinking of my past and what
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: the police knew about me and how they would respond
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: to that and everything else and then I thought well
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: maybe this will give them a chance to kill me
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: and and they'd have a reason to and then you
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: know like they'd cover it up really well and no
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: one would know that I was killed that you know
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: I was wrongfully killed and I don't know, all of that.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: It's all racing. It's all racing.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: And you're also probably fearing going back into custody all
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: that time, no?
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: I never, no, never.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Didn't bother you?
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, look, I didn't like it, but it
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: was all right.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: It was part of the cost of the thing you
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: were doing.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I've got one or two friends.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: That I'm... So you got a short stretch there for that?
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember which times.
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: Like probably I'm going to have to go through everything.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: And do a timeline.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Fair enough. That's all right. Anyway, so suffice it to
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: say that was your last conviction.
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, my very last one. Oh, actually I did three
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: months dead time, which is really a horrible thing. So
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: if you're on remand, it's a horrible thing. I say
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: it's a horrible thing because it's wasted. It's dead time.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: So I had $ 50, 000 worth of. Speeding fines, parking fines, whatever. Oh,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: parking fines.
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: I'd just park my car in the police section or
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: in the.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Whoever you wanted.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: In the prime minister's section or wherever.
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, whichever spot there was, I'd take the best spot, right?
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: So I ended up with $ 50, 000 worth of fines. And
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: I thought that those would have been at least taken
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: during this three months.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: But they weren't. But during that time.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Okay, so that was the last time in jail, but
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: I had this feeling that I was in my cell
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: and I had, and it was just this pushing on
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: my chest and it was like, felt like it was
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: from heaven, from.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: This other dimension. It was like from above.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: And I had to forgive this really nasty person who
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: had killed someone who had, you know, like, and who
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: was giving everyone a hard time in jail. So I
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: had to forgive her, even, you know, we'd had, quite
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: a few blues together. We had quite a lot of conflict,
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: her and I, she and I. She was basically the
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: queen bee or whatever, but I'd always had like conflicts
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: with her.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: So, but I had to forgive her.
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: And so this heaviness of, I'm going through my head,
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: you don't know what this girl's done. The amount of
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: people she's been ripped off, the murder that she did
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: and the details around it.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: And she didn't even do it herself. She basically got
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: other people to do it for her.
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: The cowardly things that she'd done and everything else. And
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking of all the reasons why I shouldn't forgive.
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: But it was like, just separate the person from the
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: actual events, you know. And I had to separate the
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: person from the events. And I was able to actually
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: release and forgive. And that day I went out and
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: played baseball with her and smiled at her.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: And didn't hit her with the baseball bat.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: Didn't hit her with the bat. She didn't hit me either.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: Progress.
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: But, yeah, I saw her when I was out once
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: and I said hello and she ran like she saw
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: a ghost because I'd already bashed her once.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: Because she was tormenting people. She was giving people a
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: hard time. She was riffing people off.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: She'd ruined someone's face completely and I did other things
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: to her that are not horrible to talk about.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So you managed to forgive her. That's real progress. Yeah.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is the beginning of the real change,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: the permanent change in your life. You'd had time in
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Bible college. You'd seen the possibilities. Your nature was drawing
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: you back into these situations. Where was the moment where
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: you really achieved this state of grace, that I think
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: you were always looking.
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: For well that was it like I mean the state
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: of grace happened initially in 1989 and I had that
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: three years in Bible college then I backslid for 12
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: years after which I thought I was like the woman
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: that had the 12 years bleeding that was not like
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: was out of like sorts and was not in society,
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: was not accepted in society, right?
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: So this one.
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: So that was at the time when I was looking
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: at the spade, that I was going to dig my
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: own grave and all that, and.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: This was a time where I was.
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: Really having a lot of problems just staying alive. I mean,
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: it was just like my, you know, the person who
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: lived with me was my enemy. So, I mean, I
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: had to, I was always, always had my back up
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: in that.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: So in many ways, yeah.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it became quite difficult.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: But so you managed to eventually pull that behind you.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: What was the key moment or the experience, the person?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: It was that.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: It was forgiving that girl. It was forgiving that girl.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: It was between me and God.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: It was the fact that I'd strayed so far.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: It was about, you know, coming to terms with, you know, like,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: I'm no longer, I'm not in charge of this. I'm
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: not in charge of this whole thing. You know, I
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: give the power back to you, God. And, you know,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: it was about giving my power back to God, about
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: allowing God to lead me. And everything disappeared. And then,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: of course, you know, the very first thing that happens
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: is you want to change the world. I was going
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: to change the world and I was going to.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: So I did all these.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: Courses and this, and I was thinking about all of
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: these ways that I could you know, change the system
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: and specifically for a lot of the girls as well
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: that are doing time and a lot of whom are
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: not bad, a lot of whom are mad, you know,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: like they're not bad, they're mad.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: So, you know, I mean, you know, I was going
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: to do all these things. I ended up studying.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: I ended up working in this job doing a lot
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: of government research. So I was doing that. A lot
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: of work for the Fair Work Commission as well. I
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: was union delegate for ages as well, nearly. I got
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: shortlisted for a position as a union officer and I
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: was shortlisted from.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: 50 to 5 and then.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: From 5 to 3. I was the last three and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: then someone else got the job.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. But long story short, you found your way
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: into a caring role now. You're working in the social
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: services sector. You're really helping heal and transform other lives.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: What a miracle. That's a miracle, isn't it? Considering where
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: you were.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm tempted. I'm not very religious, but I
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: like the religious songs. And that song, Amazing Grace, I
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: think applies to you. Yeah. You know, if you can
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: find that solace in God and change your life, I
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: can see the light in you now that you didn't
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: have before, I guess.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: No, I didn't.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: And sometimes, yeah, sometimes the light gets very strong, especially
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: when I feel.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: the weakest.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: When I feel the weakest, the light around me gets really,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: really strong. And it's extremely comforting, you know, and it
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: feels like, it feels like there's no longer any much
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: interest in this world now.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: It feels like there's.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: More of an interest in this other world that, you know,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: I have my sights on and my life is kind
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: of in preparation for that, you know, finding that pearl
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: of a great.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: Price and selling everything for it. And that's where, yeah, that's, yes.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: Look, I've found a sense of purpose. Yes, I'm doing
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: social services. Yes, I feel like I'm contributing well. I'm,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: you know, my life is ended though. And however, you know,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: I'm sick. I'm wasted half, most of my life with,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: and so I've had to, I have.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: To, I'm going to continue working.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: I'll probably never stop working because I don't see myself
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: sitting there doing nothing ever.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: And I guess because you have, as you say, wasted
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: those years, there's an urgency about you now and what
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: you want to achieve. And I guess also, and this
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: is why we're doing this interview, because I think there's
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: probably girls out there, and boys too for that matter,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: who are involved in some of the things you're involved in,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: whether they were addicted to drugs or they're involved in crime.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: And what would be your message to them about the
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: potential in their lives, even though they're at the lowest ebb?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: Well, I think everyone is worth something.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: There's no one that's absolutely scum of the earth that
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: can be thrown to the curb.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: I think everyone in this world is worth something.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: And we don't always understand what people are going through
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: or what they've been through or the issues that they've
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: had to confront or even the development that they've had
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: in their soul. We're in no position to judge. I
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: think everyone has something to live for. Everyone has something
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: to offer in this earth. Everyone that's, you know, I mean,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: people that are alive, that are addicted, that feel stuck
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: in a rut of addiction and depression, anxiety and everything
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: else that kind of goes along with it.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Usually it's the reason why people use.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: There's hope. There's always hope and, you know, there's hope
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: and there's Well, I'm a prime example that people can change,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: you know, like people who have been bashed, stabbed, raped,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: done a lot of time in jail, nearly killed, tried
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: to kill themselves, all of this other trauma can be healed,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: you know. I mean, there's a chance for it to
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: be healed. You don't have to live your life in depression.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: You don't have to live your life in a debilitated
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: state because you're so anxious or you're so ashamed or
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: you're so guilty or you're so frustrated or you're so
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: like i mean whatever it is i mean there's always
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: hope there's a place for everyone.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Correct and that's a great place to end this interview
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: and i want to thank you elizabeth it's been a
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: hard road but you're on a good road now and
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: i'm sure there are people out there listening to this
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: who see themselves Elizabeth's story and realize there is hope
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: you just got to make the right choices life is
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: lived in choices and it's split seconds in moments and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: if you make the right choice now there's going to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: be hope for you so I'm going to put some
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: links in the show notes for people that might want
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: to change their lives I really urge you to listen
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: carefully to what you've heard today if Elizabeth can do
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: it you can do it as well and if there
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: are parents out there who are struggling with their kids
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: I understand the potential for change and the potential for hope.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: This is great. I really enjoyed this. So if you
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: want to report a crime, you can always call Crime
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Service 1-800-333-000. Or if you don't trust the police, I
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: get that. Maybe you're on the run from police. I
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: don't know. You can always email me, adamschanderrider at gmail.com.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: I also want you to follow me on Facebook. We're
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: building a community there of people who want to talk
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: about these sort of issues. So find me on Facebook.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: That's also in the link. to the episode. This has
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: been Adam Chan for Real Crime. Thank you for listening.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 1:06:50
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• 1:06:53
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• 1:06:56
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• 1:07:00
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