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Two Common Ways People Approach Change (both wrong) · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Makes it sound like it's as simple as making a choice.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: You got where you are because of choices, you'll get out of where you are by making better choices.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's a shred of truth to that, but change is way harder than that.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: My point in even making it an issue of the two statements is when you make change sound easy, it shames people.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: You come to God about a sin from your past and you bring him up, you know, oh God, I'm so sorry I did that.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Would you please forgive me?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And literally, God would be correct to say, I forgot all about that.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you hadn't brought it up, I never would have thought about it again.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: It just requires creating environments within which people can interact with one another, with God, with truth in the middle and the Holy Spirit.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: They can experience the truths and it can become an embodied truth.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited because I see the right conversation starting to spin up.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all, Chip buys way too many books.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Then, when it comes to change, Chip says some people are overwhelmed before they even start.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: They don't even try because they think they can't change.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Other people have a false sense of confidence, like, heck yeah, I can change.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And both of those perspectives are wrong.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Chip also gives us a reframing of what falling from God's grace actually means.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: He reminds us that leaders in the church don't have it any easier when it comes to change, so cut them some slack too.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he talks about how information doesn't result in transformation.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just collect a bunch of head knowledge and expect change.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: All of these subjects and more are coming up.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: After this episode, Chip and Joey will move on to phase two of these discussions, bringing in professional therapists, psychiatrists, and fellow ministry workers to reflect on the content you've heard over the last four weeks.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're so thankful for you guys for being listeners.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And now here's Chip and Joey on Shades of Grace.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Chip two common but wrong views of change.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: I thought this was so interesting.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Some people, like Joey Svenson, take the approach of, oh, change.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right, sign me up.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'll do that.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking it's going to be automatic and it's a little switch to be flipped.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then some people say, I can't.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's just who I am.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I can't change.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Both are wrong.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: One makes it too hard, one makes it too easy.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like the way I word it typically when I'm talking about it is the two answers are just do it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't help it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's just the way I am.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So one, just do it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: The Nike way.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: The Nike way, yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Makes it sound like, you know, it's it's as simple as making a choice.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: You got where you are because of choices, you'll get out of where you are by making better choices.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's I mean, obviously there's a shred of truth to that, but change is way harder than that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: My point in even making it an issue of the the two statements is that it shames people.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: When you make change sound easy, it shames people.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I found myself correcting this often lately.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember where I was recently, but a friend made the statement that you change a habit in what is it, 21 days or something like that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been proven over and over that's not true.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like six months, depending on the habit, of course.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it's 21 days is absurd for most habits.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: The other statement, I can't help it, that's just the way I am.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you know, when I'm talking to a group, I'll get you sort of exaggerate a little bit to just to fill the room, you might say.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's like saying that what Jesus did on Calvary to fix us couldn't undo the damage Satan did in Genesis 3 to harm us.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I just believe that we're way more fixed.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: The word saved literally contains the thought of being re remade, rebuilt, made whole.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's true, by the way, Jesus lost.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: If we leave now, which is why I don't want to leave now.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, what I'm saying is if Jesus' power wasn't enough to help us just.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I don't like it.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like just do it because it's just not true and it shames people.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't like it's just the way I am, I can't help it, because it diminishes what Jesus has done for us and what we're capable of doing for one another.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so change is hard.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ain't no two ways about it, man.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Change is hard.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I've experienced it, I've worked on it myself and others, and I have great compassion.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: When I meet somebody who says, Oh man, and I say, Oh wow, you've lost some weight, and they've lost 10 pounds, five pounds, fifteen pounds, a hundred pounds.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care if it's five pounds, I'm impressed.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know how hard it is.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard because anything we've done more than once has become part of our reward system.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's dopamine and all kinds of chemicals in our brain that get involved.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, the brain doesn't like to change.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't like to give up its territory.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it's wrong, hurtful, unhelpful, it doesn't get the results you want.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, your brain still resists changing.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Dopamine being on your phone, case in point.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right there.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you we joked at the beginning of one of our episodes about me loving books and being an addiction.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Bottom line is I I love looking at them.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love buying them.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I bet you you love press and purchase and seeing it upload.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, ah, I don't get a a a in other words, I can't feel the dopamine, but you know it's there.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, you're it's the hunt.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: You just got a new book.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, I do love reading books, but I really like buying books.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I did ask you the other day, have you read them all?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, Oh, there's no way.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, Joe, it's even more stupid than that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I could read the books I have in the rest of my life.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I mean, if I if I if I didn't have to do anything else, I still don't think I could finish them all.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do you choose what book you're gonna read next?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's it's the paradox of choice, man.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's painful.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm my Kindle.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have 3,500 books.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have a problem.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: My name's Ship John, and I'm an addict.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder what the uh there's gotta be a name for addicted to books.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: How do you rewire your soul?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: How do you rewire your soul?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Look to God first and most for everything, identify and deal with idols, and then practice.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is specifically in the area of rewiring the father's love component.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it would apply to lots of things, but I wrote that three-step process in that area.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you first asked the question, how do you rewire your soul?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking, oh, we need Baron for this one.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I think uh in essence and this is where you use the analogy I'm pretty sure of in antennas being tuned into something that's already there.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I was getting ready to say.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: In essence, what I'm getting at is this putting yourself in a position, number one, to slow down, number one, to engage God and his reality in as open and curious a way as you possibly can, and giving him the opportunity to compare and contrast, you might say.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Things that you do that don't well turn out well and why you do them and all that.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then the idol part is that's identifying, you know, a few minutes ago I said that a lot of sin is built around meeting a right need the wrong way.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of is figuring out what are those things, like we were just laughing about my books.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Books to some degree would be would fall in the category of an idol.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's something I run to and rely on to meet a need that could be met other ways.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then practice.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if I wanted to break that habit, which I don't know that I'd do, but if I did, you know, I'd probably spend some time quietly listening and receiving God's love.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'd probably journal a little bit to get to the why of it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what itch is this scratching?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: What need is it meeting?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's clearly not meeting a need that I, you know, I need the book.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, clearly that's not it.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's meeting some other need.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's where the the idol comes in, because it'd probably be escapism, entertainment, and maybe an addiction.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is an addiction, but but yeah, I mean, in the sense that there's a payoff.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you're telling other people if you want to break your addiction, look to God first and most for everything, uh identify and deal with idols, then practice.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: But for you, you're gonna not do it.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're not gonna do the practice part.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm making sport of it.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I understand.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I understand.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being serious.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't feel like God has raised the issue to a point that it's like I want something done about that.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now my wife has, but tongue in cheek to some degree, because she knows I love books.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it really is it is something that I look at every once in a while.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I occasionally will go on a book fast.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: They don't last that long, but I'll go on on a book purchase fast or a book reading fast.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Both.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about two different ways of framing frustrating God's grace as well as correcting our understanding of falling, falling from God's grace.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Frustrating God's grace is Galatians 2.21.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: It follows Galatians 2.20 that says, I'm crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the life which I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: The life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave his life for me.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, great verse.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you're going to memorize a verse, not a bad place to start.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I am crucified with Christ.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yet I'm alive.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it's Christ living in me.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you read this super cool packed verse, the next phrase is, I don't frustrate the grace of God.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Different translations say nullify, put aside.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, what he's saying is kind of what we talked about when we talked about grace.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: That grace when it really settles, when it really clicks, when you really fall into it as you put You absorb the reality of Galatians 2 20, that I'm man, I'm dead, but I'm alive.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've died with Christ, I was buried with Christ, and I'm raised with Christ.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So now my life and his life are merged, and the life that I now live, I'm living by faith.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you look at all that and you say, Wow.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then he says, I don't frustrate God's grace.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Not living in that reality.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Not living in the reality that the reason Joey keeps judging Joey.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is because he doesn't realize Joey's dead.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: The reason Joey keeps feeling like he can't overcome things is because Joey doesn't realize that Christ is in him.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And just like he never sinned, he will progressively help you overcome everything you're dealing with.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's I don't know.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So lack of awareness of the truth.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not just awareness.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's tricky because awareness is maybe step one, but I would say awareness of your need for the truth is step one.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Awareness of the truth.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like this it's pursuing the truth until the truth catches you.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Chasing the truth until the truth catches you.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and when you say catch you, would you say until it sets you free?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Until it makes itself real to you.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we talked about revelation that revelation's on the side of the revealer.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can't create a revelatory moment with God.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: What you can do is put yourself in a position to have one, receive one, but he's got to do the revealing, which I think he's always ready, willing, and able to do.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: But we've got to be in a position to receive it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So frustrating God's grace is not accepting how good it is.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love to say just stuff like this.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to a church where the gospel you're hearing is not too good to be true, you're in the wrong place.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because the gospel you should be hearing week after week in one way or another, is just it's just too good to be true.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's a bargain that is absurd.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus says to Joey, says to Chip, I'll take all of your sin, all of it, every bit of it, past, present, and future, and I'll give you all my righteousness.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Deal and perfection forever.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, seriously?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Frustrating his grace is accepting the deal, but continuing to live as if you didn't, as if he's still holding every mistake you make against you when he's not.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: As a as a father, imagine telling your kid, look, it's in the past.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's all good.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've forgiven you, you learn from your mistake, and then every day he comes up and say, Dad, I'm so, so sorry.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Son, you're grieving over something and I'm fine with it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's no big deal.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not even angry at you.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know if I said this preaching, or I'm sure I have, but I think initially I heard it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, you come to God about a sin from your past and you bring him up, you know, oh God, I'm so sorry I did that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Would you please forgive me?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And literally, God would be correct to say, I forgot all about that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you hadn't brought it up, I never would have thought about it again.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's literally scriptural.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So frustrating is grace, and here's where it really drives it home.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's Galatians chapter two.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: You go over to Galatians five, I think it is, and Paul's talking about the law and grace, the law and grace, the law and grace.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then he says this you who have fallen from grace.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Almost every Christian I've ever asked says falling from grace is returning to sin.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Backsliding.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you read the context, it says, You who have fallen from grace, I'm not quoting, have returned to the law as your source of being right with God.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if anything, falling from grace is starting to try again on your own.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Falling from grace is trusting yourself instead of God.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love this little statement.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus plus anything equals nothing.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Anything you do to try to improve on what Jesus did dishonors what he did.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I know we don't want to do that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: So a tough question to ask, but you got to break the truth to us.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're not aware of part of Pastor Chip's ministry, it's going and ministering to church staffs.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And if the pastor is cooperative and lets Chip in to speak into that pastor's life and ways in which he or she is leading in unhealthy ways, or leading he or herself in unhealthy ways, how common is it for church leaders and pastors not to get this stuff that we've been discussing?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there'd be any difference in the percentages from a pastor and not a pastor or just any churchgoer.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there'd be any difference in the ratio.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And does that spike some cynicism or do you have to battle feeling judgment like a pastor should know better?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, I'm asking you.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Probably, truthfully.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think it should, but I think it does some.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I spend a lot of time because honestly, Joey, that's one of the biggest issues God deals with me about is my quickness to be judgmental with leaders.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I really work on it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I promise you I do.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a combination of, you know, ask for help, man.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's ways to help you, there's ways to fix it, there's ways to process through it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the body of Christ is starving for secure, safe, confident, competent leaders.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I'd say a chunk of those leaders are unaware they need to ask for help.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Be my guess.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm kind of letting them off the hook a little bit.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I I I don't doubt that there's truth to that, but I have to believe that in their marriages, in their parenting, in their interaction with their staff, in their ambition and interacting with their peers, in their interactions with their congregation, there's gotta be moments where God taps them on the shoulder in one way or another and says, You've kind of seen that pop up in your life before.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: We I really think we need to take some time to work on that.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't mean that judgmentally, I don't mean it unkindly, and I'm really working on not ever reacting that way.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because the same truths we've talked about apply to them as anybody else.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Did you get to choose your parents?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Did you get to choose your early life experiences?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know no, no, no, no?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And on they need the same help we all do.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And on this same train of thought, thinking of churches and church leadership, where, in your opinion, does discipleship, where is it limited in not including these sorts of concepts of freedom and grace and life change and choosing your pain?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think most discipleship processes and I mean some people have a whole discipleship pastor and a discipleship pipeline, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Discipleship, discipleship, discipleship.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find that a lot of those plans are kind of going the wrong way or missing some major components?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I'm actually studying right now is the disconnection between an information-driven discipling strategy and an experience-driven discipleship strategy.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe the correct answer is both and.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've bought into a kind of an educational model that information translates into transformation, which it doesn't very effectively.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, I'm studying and gonna do some gonna we're gonna do some of this about that because scripture's pretty clear on it.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it just requires cr creating environments within which people can interact with one another, with God, and with truth in the middle and the Holy Spirit, and they can experience the truths that we're teaching them, and it can become an embodied truth.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Until it is, it's something that you know I believe because you told me so, or I believe because the Bible said so.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: That knowledge.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I believe because of the evidence of experiencing it.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited because I see the right conversation starting to spin up.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I see people starting to scratch and ask questions and wrestle with things.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean the current political environment in our country is indication enough for me that we're not discipling very well.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because we have a large, I mean, the evangelical church is so tightly connected to a certain perspective.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And don't read into that that I think any persp either of them are right or wrong.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I probably do in some ways, but that's not my point.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: My point is we're so intertwined in it that we've lost our uniqueness.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've lost the word holy means to be separate, and we've lost our separateness.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Not good, not good.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I I see separate in the in the sense that we truly know how to love ourselves, God, and others.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Another way to do that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Separate yourself from the world and the movies that you watch, the music that you don't listen to, and don't do this, don't do that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure some of that has its place, but mainly we're separate in that we love and with God's love, which is totally different from the world.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, being healthy would make us separate.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Having souls that are being progressively healed and made whole would separate us.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I don't know how much life I've got left, but I would love to see the church as a healing force in the world.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're still gonna have standards, we're still gonna have principles and things that we adhere to.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's still gonna be a responsibility to call some strikes and balls, and that's wrong and that's not, and whatever.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: But we can do it more compassionately and understandingly, and um, I'm excited.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: A prayer that you have in this book that I think encapsulates the drive of what you are encouraging people to really in a process that you're encouraging people to invite into their heart is God, I don't want anything you don't want me to have, but I want everything you want me to have.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode was helpful, share it with someone who might need it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow Chip on Instagram at Chipjud and find free resources for your spiritual and mental health journey at chipjudd.com.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time on Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.