Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E2 - on War

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REALLY JEWISH S1:E2 - on War · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay, welcome to Really Jewish, our conversation about what it is to be Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. If you're coming back for another listen, welcome, welcome back. If you're coming here for the first time, bruchim ha'ba'im we're delighted to have you. Israel today at war with Iran. ⁓ And are bringing a special recording just in our second episode, ⁓ as festival of Purim, the Jewish festival of Purim ⁓ comes and in Israel and in the UK on Monday morning, the 2nd of March. We discussed last week that we were looking for a bit of a softer landing into this podcast, putting off some of the meatier topics for a later date. Well, ⁓ we make plans and God laughs. Fate had it another way, as they say. So instead of easing in, today we're talking about war, talking about... What is really Jewish about war? Yair, we're going to get into it in just a second and you'll brought some rabbinic and biblical sources for us today to discuss, which is exciting. Just talking about both justifications for a peace orientation and also justifications for a war that we're currently in. Today, join Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph for What's Really Jewish. Yair is a law professor in Israel. I'm a rabbi in the UK. ⁓ I'm religious, your Yair is secular, and we're inviting you into a conversation that we've been having for the last 15 years about what's really Jewish. Welcome to the next leg of Really Jewish. So your Yair, welcome. This is a podcast and we're really facing this kind of delicate balance of what it is to stay, I guess, in the text. This is a... Yair Eldan: Dayum. Oliver Spike Joseph: a perennial Jewish challenge to stay in the text, to stay in our own lives, in ⁓ a reflective space, in our own journey versus really the pull of what is going on today, which is that Israel is at war with Iran, a war that many people in Israel have been waiting for, for better or for worse. for lots of weeks, certainly. And it would be hard and it would be, think, for me, clumsy to be launching this amazing project that we've called this podcast Really Jewish. And then not also somehow, as my partner, Natalie said yesterday, kind of pivot a little bit towards what's going on front of us. So just before we get into some of the texts that we bought today, some of the kind of Jewish material that we wanted to look at, I wanted to say something about keeping our listeners in the room. I... I came to you here because I'm really passionate about some of the conversations that we've been having and we got into a little bit of that last week. And I'm also passionate to present voices that are perhaps not heard in the mainstream, both my own and yours. And some of what we present today is not perhaps, certainly in the UK, not in the mainstream of political opinion or a take that people would necessarily hear. I don't feel like we have much to apologize here other than to present a strong and healthy conversation. Some things that we'll agree on, some things that we'll disagree on. But if you're wondering as you listen whether you agree with us, just stay till the end. Listen to the variety and diversity of opinions that we're going to try and present today because we're, think, as a team sitting with a lot of complexity and diversity even in our own opinions. And so my encouragement for anybody who's made it this far, four minutes into the podcast is to stay with us and see if by the end of the podcast, you can have something that you'll agree with, something that you do wanna get behind. And as with every single episode of podcasts, also write to us and tell us what you think. Okay, I'm wrapping up some of our, just a few words of introduction. I wanna hear. Yair Eldan: you Oliver Spike Joseph: get to you, Yair. The version here is that we're going to look at some of the different values placed both in a relationship with peace and also the values placed in relationship with to war in the Jewish tradition. But let's just start off, Yair, with what the last few days have been like for you, because I think the context is important here if we're to talk personally about our own journeys. Yair Eldan: Sure, but just a small comment about what you said before. I can understand how some Europeans, especially English people, you know, can feel a bit awkward listening to an Israeli. I myself remember when I was, stayed in England, ⁓ that I felt misunderstood most of the time. because of the gap between cultures. And so I really understand your introduction. Just to say that one of my narratives in life is a transition in my... attitude towards my self contradictions. I mean when I was young my self contradictions were felt also because I was religious. My self contradictions were an obstacle while as today my contradictions are are something that I really embrace and I feel that most of my tolerance towards other opinions derives from this embrace. So yeah, I totally agree. A deep conversation always entails... ⁓ Some very complex and something sometimes contradiction a contradicting opinions with the same Within the same person. So yeah, I told I'm with you with in in that ⁓ War well We're a bit tired in the last few days. We went back and forth in to the shelter ⁓ Last night we were so tired. We woke up the kids in the middle of the night and when we came to the door we understood one of the kids is missing. He's still in bed. So I went back and shook him and took him to the shelter. The shelter is like three minute walk but when you go back and forth, no complaints. It's hard, it's scary, it's with a lot of bombing around. But everybody's okay and we hope for the best. It's not easy, but we're optimistic. Oliver Spike Joseph: Thank you, Yair. So ⁓ maybe let's just get into our first text. It's perhaps the low-low of this session. It's a really hard text to read, but it relates to something essential, both about the horror of war and also something which really is an aspect of the lives that we know. Part of this topic is that I live Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: in North London. And I, know, we have had violence on the streets of London in the UK in recent years, but it's minuscule compared to certainly what's been seen in Israel in the last year and a half. And the perspective on war is simply, in a European context, is quite simply totally insulated in that way. I guess the further east you travel ⁓ in Europe, perhaps that gets less and less. I have some Ukrainian students at the moment who I learn Hasidut with. They have a different experience of war. But tell us your take on this first text. We'll put them in the show notes. We're in Deuteronomy chapter 13. It's a core text which speaks to an aspect of war. Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just remind me, yeah, we'll just get into it. Thank you, Oliver. But remind me that we have to have an episode about the balance in Judaism between fun and prohibitions, which is very... I mean, I'm into this topic because of the war, because a lot of the concerns, the layers of concerns we have in the past few years. And I feel that... You know, much of the fun in life, you know, disappeared in the last few years. We have, you know, layers of layers of concern in climate change and then the AI dystopias and the threats to democracy in Israel, not to mention COVID with all, you know. And obviously the basic concerns now for the life of myself and the children, myself, my loved ones, the concerns of everyday life. We're talking about just make a living. And I think in Jewish life, it's interesting. I'd love to speak to you. Let's dedicate a chapter on it. mean, just thinking about Shabbat, Shabbat with this, you know, pleasure, but also prohibitions. And I'm not a person of prohibitions, and I have a very existential approach to life. I feel that a lot of my fun in life disappeared in the last few years just to enjoy life and I would love to talk to you about it. Remind me. Oliver Spike Joseph: It's a good one on the occasion of today being a fast day to Anit Esther and this evening in a very strange way being Purim for the Jewish world, perhaps one of the festivals of frivolity and ecstasy and celebration. It's a weird time, certainly in the Jewish world. Yair, take us there. Yair Eldan: Sure. Sure. And so we, I took the chapter 13 in Deuteronomy because it speaks about, you know, city that were ⁓ incited to ⁓ commit ⁓ idolatry. idolatry, and ⁓ everybody reads chapter which have, you know, a modern ⁓ a point of view is devastated because the chapter is a very, you know, harsh chapter. It says that if you actually ⁓ come to the conclusion that a city war was incited, most of the city, it's not clear, you know, whether or not how many people in the city were actually committing a idolatry. But if they did, ⁓ The punishment is very harsh because the simple understanding of the text is that you have to actually eliminate everybody in the city. ⁓ all ⁓ and all and I don't have the English translation in front of me but there is a verse which is very very simple in what it says it says ⁓ which means simply that you have to kill everybody in the city I mean it's with no exception and for me as a secular Jew It's always a... a challenge in a way, but also I try to explain to my secular students that my attitude towards religion is always that it comes to actually satisfy some very basic needs ⁓ of people and you actually can interpret these very basic human needs. ⁓ Interpret to a modern interpretation meaning if we are talking here about ⁓ a passage in the Torah that is says that you have to kill everybody that actually don't accept the leadership or the the fact that God is the creator of the world and you have to obey to him, ⁓ I always take it to the fact that they actually committed treason in the ⁓ world of the Bible. So for me, I would interpret it as a very, very ⁓ severe criminal ⁓ Indeed. and that's, I mean, I can't justify the harsh killing everybody by sword and everything. like, you know, going to war against the city. but I can understand the sentiment towards treason. I do. And ⁓ obviously I want to talk to you about ⁓ how the rabbis reinterpret this text and how the oral Torah really softens it. But ⁓ I would like to hear your view. How do you read these texts? I mean about war, harsh war, about people who actually committed treason against God, which is, know, even when you talk about Esther and the Megillah, I find it hard to actually read about the Jews killing all the people who actually wanted to kill them. But it's so violent and so not connected to my views. How do you read it? Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, think, thanks. I think on a very human level, if the Torah lacked this aspect of extremist violent behavior, it would miss on a very plain level, a crucial aspect of what it is to be human. I have within me the passionate desire to hurt people. It exists within me. I have that possibility within me to hurt and to ultimately to kill. That is an aspect of perhaps what it is to be mammal. Certainly what it is to be ⁓ a hunter killer as we were originally. And a part of that is represented in the text that I have that capacity. And we don't need to look very far in the world around us to also observe that both as a society and as nation states. Yair Eldan: Sure. Oliver Spike Joseph: that we have that part. I often say to students in some way or another, like we can sanitize the text. There are communities that like take out this bit or take out that bit and don't read the bits that don't fit with our personal narrative, but you are in a spiritual sense, you're totally looking past both the reality of what it is to be human and also the reality of the world that we live in. So that's the first step. And I guess in a very natural way from that step, reading this text as stage one of the Jewish journey or stage one of the interpretive journey is to say, 'yesh pol mah l'drosh'. Like I have, there's something here that I need to learn from this text about the nature of violence, about the nature of what happens when you, this is very relevant the to some of the wars that Israel and arguably the West is facing at the moment. What happens when you come up against aspects in the world, people opposite, people near you, opposing forces, powers, nation states that utterly represent the opposite of the values that you are trying to promote and you're trying to live by? What's the appropriate response? Because Yair Eldan: Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: A version of that is, you know, 'od, yavoh shalom aleynu', you know, to sing and to to chant and to hope and even to protest. at some point in time, and I think this is, you know, part of the world that we live in, then war is part of the story. Violence is part of story. However much, you know, to whatever degree we might try and distance ourselves from it. Perhaps at some point it is part of the story. Yair Eldan: Right, but the challenge is that reality is so complex that you don't have... It's very hard to actually differentiate between just war and preventive war or choice war and everything is intertwined and also the facts are not agreed upon. So, I mean, it's a challenge because the canonical text, Deuteronomy 13, is very, with an exclamation mark, it's a very violent text and with no restraint. So, I mean, I can see the danger of this text and that's why I'm very appreciative of the, you know, the... move by the rabbis to actually say no there are restraints and we can actually hear them inside the text that's a great move by the rabbis you know not to reject the text but to reinterpret it so we can actually relate to it but still there is a difference between the fact that we understand that sometimes we should actually you know stand for our lives and be violent in order to just live. ⁓ And embracing this text, because this text is ⁓ a religious text, it's very harsh and violent. and there is something very ⁓ one-sided, you know, and you should make an, you should have, or you have to make an effort to actually reinterpret it if you want to live with it. That's my thing. And sometimes it's very difficult when you deal with religious people who actually, you know, feel this text is a source of meaning. of hope, of actually everything that they believe in. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, I mean, I don't want to move on to the rabbinic text just for another minute. I feel like today I want to stay there a little bit. I feel like... Yair Eldan: Yeah. Sure. Oliver Spike Joseph: It's very difficult. This conversation is very difficult. On one level, I revert back to what I said at the beginning, which is if you're listening and you're offended, good. Like, I feel like I'm trying to put plainly a part of our tradition that exists. And it's not just a part of a tradition that exists, it's a part, an aspect of a reality of our world, both historically and presently. And on one level, one other level, I also don't wanna, we're gonna try and get onto some of the personal reflection of what this all means for us as individuals. But I also don't wanna escape. This is a really significant part of what it is to be human. I think maybe I said it already, but like, part of Torah, part of how Torah is at least framed religiously is these are specifically texts that we have to learn from. And some of these texts also put in front of us the ways in which we're angry and the ways in which we might very well lean towards violence. perhaps the overwhelming temptation towards that sometimes and what it takes to stay on the narrow path. Often when you read in the newspaper of somebody who does something terrible, who stab somebody or hurts their partner, God forbid, or... The human temptation is to kind of reach out and say, ⁓ that's so abhorrent. That would never happen in our community. That would never happen in my household. Like how perverted, disgusting is that? And the reality, I think, of the Torah text in a very unsanitary way is it puts some of these topics front and center. It says, where are you on this aspect of being a violent human? Or in what ways are you? disgusting to your partner or even edging towards abusive or manipulative. And that's also a stop mark to be people who actually act against violence in our communities and our society, actually play a part in deescalating and bringing us down from that pedestal of extremism that we could stand on. I think that that's also why these texts are so important. Yair Eldan: So I need two clarifications. One is, can you please ⁓ explain to a secular Jew, ⁓ why do you think that it could be offending for religious Jews? That's what you meant, right? This conversation, why the things I said about the, the autonomy, about the fact that it's... I find it hard to relate to this text and I make an effort to actually, you know, go into it because there is something that I actually, you know, differentiate that I can actually learn from. But why could it be offending? That's one clarification. And the other is, don't you think you actually make ⁓ your life more easier, you know, when you say that these texts like this and in other texts like you know ⁓ all these very harsh that you actually wipe off Amalek from earth and etc etc there are a lot of texts in the Bible who are you know just reflecting the time and the history of ⁓ when the text was written. But don't you think you make yourself life easier when you actually say, it's, you know, I mean, there is ⁓ one stage that you don't really say that you accept ⁓ the fact that the text is authoritative for you and then you go on. But don't you think there is like one stage that you just, you know. to say something about the text as a modern person from the 21st century. Oliver Spike Joseph: And distance yourself from its moral authority is what you're saying. Yair Eldan: in a way, Oliver Spike Joseph: Listen, my sensitivity, we have different sensitivities about this conversation. We spoke offline before. My sensitivity is that there are people around this conversation and people around certainly some of the debates about Israel and Israel's right to exist who would happily come here and like pinch from the podcast and say, look at Deuteronomy 13, look at how the Jews read this text and... therefore we are warmongering, bloodthirsty and those voices certainly exist and I'm sensitive to them. Part of the reason why I'm describing a journey of staying with the text is because... Even the rabbis wrote in the Midrash in the rabbinic interpretation that there are 70 faces of the Torah, that there are many different options for every single... Yair Eldan: Hehe. Oliver Spike Joseph: angle and aspect of Torah. That's crucial that we have to... the Hasidim say that the whole Torah is like different aspects of the body, which also relates to the different emotional aspects of the body. So this text has to be there because it is part of us. And that's the bit that's so much misunderstood, at least when Judaism is kind of clumsily misquoted. in some parts, certainly of the internet. Let's try and move on to the rabbinic texts. We don't have tons of time left. I know you want to come back in again. This is a great conversation. Yeah. Only one thing. Yair Eldan: I just want to say one thing. I just want to say something about my sensitivity about this conversation as an Israeli secular Jew. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yair Eldan: And I see that my concern is about being apologetic. I don't like being apologetic. And for me, being Jewish means that Judaism, I said it last time, know, Judaism entails everything, contains everything, and also contains, as you said, a ⁓ violent aspect of it. to ignore that would mean for me, you know, making a lie in my soul in a way, and lying to myself. And this text is part of my identity, it's part of me and I need to deal with it in a very honest way. That's why I, I mean, and that's one sensitivity. The other is, I think these texts, for me, are kind of a bridge that I'm really I want to make a bridge between me and religious people in Israel abroad as well. know people in England, Jews in England. I'm talking about Jews, a conversation between Jews and for me a text like that is a great opportunity to talk to actually religious people about you know the connection between morality and religious ⁓ religion and how to be moral and and religious together and how do you actually combine these two, you know, areas that not always, you know, come together. That's my sensitivity, sorry. Let's go. Okay. Oliver Spike Joseph: It's good. Take us to the rabbinic text. The question is how does the rabbinic text change the Torah text? I just want to do just one second of framing which is Judaism is about layers and where Yair and I met was studying Talmud which is the rabbinic layering of the Jewish tradition from around 2000 years ago. The Torah is the core text, the five books and then Yair Eldan: Sure. Oliver Spike Joseph: We have many different generations of both rabbinic and later interpretations. And today we're like somewhere between the two. We started with a Torah text with a biblical text from the five books of Moses from the book of Deuteronomy. And now we're going some of the rabbinic interpretation of that text, which as Yair said, softens this kind of quite gruesome place that we started. But how does it soften your Yair and what does it mean? Yair Eldan: I mean, the rabbis, I mean, just let's say it plainly, one, I mean, the rabbis are debating whether when the Torah is saying that you have to kill the people who live in that city, whether or not it actually ⁓ includes the kids. The kids obviously didn't do any harm. The kids obviously can't commit this criminal act of idolatry. So should they be killed or not? And one of the rabbis says, yeah, it says, mean, plainly it says, ⁓ everybody who lives in the city, including the kids, the children. And the other rabbi is saying, no, we have another exegesis, was actually in the Torah, who was saying that, that kids shouldn't take responsibility over the sins of the fathers. So if you want to harmonize these two texts, you have to come to the conclusion that the Torah didn't mean that you have to kill the kids as well. And I brought this text because for me the oral Torah you know that the translation of the the text ⁓ which enables us as you know I'm a teach law, I'm all deep into legal texts. I the fact that you can actually adjust a legal text and adjust it to the time and place and cultural context is so important for a legal system. And the oral Torah, for me. It's just what it is and a lot of times when I actually speak to my religious counterparts they say Listen, they have a very traditional lot of them not not everybody but lots of them have a very traditional Attitude towards oral Torah. They say no oral Torah is not an adjustment of the legal system. It's actually It came from God himself. God himself gave the interpretation when he gave the Torah. So they reject the fact that there is something, an historical aspect of the legal system. And sometimes we get stuck when we do that. But for me, reading this, it's moving, it's exciting to see that 2,000 years ago, People were concerned about the fact that the legal system, the religious legal system is not really tuned with their moral feelings, moral ⁓ attitudes. And they make a very... I mean, they're brave. They make a brave effort to reinterpret the text in a way that fits their moral view. Oliver, just this morning I read this. this article in the New York Times about the Iranian doctors who actually risked their lives in order to hide evidence about the massacre that happened a month ago. ⁓ Iranians slaughtered their brothers and sisters and the doctors are actually for me. When I read about it, I felt that there was something Jewish about it, about this civil disobedience, about this conscientious objection of the doctors. ⁓ Like the midwife. in Egypt. So for me it was Jewish. I felt there's something Jewish about their standing against this violent attitude. Oliver Spike Joseph: So the doctors in ⁓ Iran were exposing the killing, you're saying? They were revealing the killing? Yair Eldan: exposing it and hiding, hiding evidence and sending it to the West. And some of them were disappeared. I mean, they faced the death penalty about it. Oliver Spike Joseph: Listen, it's an interesting question that you present about, we say on Shabbat, the two aspects of Shabbat are presented by God in one single voice, you're presenting that in a similar way in relation to the oral law and the written law. yeah, certainly as a progressive Jew, we would probably align on this, that there are threads that are sewn inside the rabbinic tradition. which are in part an understanding of the modern for them, modern in a contemporary sense, sensitivities. And here we are describing is this moral sensitivity about killing, about what it is to certainly, you know, it's very chilling, certainly kill those who are innocent and young. ⁓ in this city which opposes the belief of Jewish life, let's say, or of Israelite life. I don't know, the framing, what's the framing? This feels like very complicated terrain, but I guess I think of the place where we started, which is David Hartman, who I only learned with a couple of times, but I think he would say, and many of his students would say, that... Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: Torah has to be true. I think maybe this is part of the terrain where maybe you and I overlap. Torah has to be true. Whether you're religious or whether you're not religious, somehow the Jewish tradition has to be true. But that's not true with a capital T. That's true in the sense, kind of what you said, Ma'azen, that we have to somehow balance the competing traditions to make it make sense. And part of making it make sense is bringing it into a space. where this tradition of ours becomes an ethical tradition and becomes an upright tradition. And I think that's my Judaism. That feels really Jewish in that sense. Yair Eldan: Yeah, but I told you in the beginning of the conversation, I'm really, I found it challenging for me and that's a very big question for me in Israel 2026. How do we actually talk to... Orthodox religious Jews, but also to, you know, very religious Muslims or Christians about the canonical texts. How do we do it? Because for me, I said it's when I come to speak to them about the texts, sometimes when I show to them that the text is very open and even the rabbis, you know, understood it. They even reject it. mean, they say they go to the very, I don't know, one bottom line of the text and there is something very fundamentalist. I mean, I don't like to use this word. ⁓ sometimes it's not very negative, there's something very positive about being a fundamentalist in a way that you're committed, totally committed to your cause, which is admirable for me, which I always doubt everything. ⁓ And how do we talk to people who more religious or, I don't know, they have a different religious ⁓ attitude ⁓ towards the text ⁓ through these texts? Because I feel a deep connection to this text, they feel a deep connection to this text, it's supposed to be a bridge, but sometimes we just can't meet in the middle. Even even after I show to them that the canonical texts themselves from the oral Torah from the midrash You know from from from the Mishnah is say some things that they they actually are surprised to hear Oliver Spike Joseph: ⁓ Listen, I want to switch just for a couple of minutes to talk about the personal, but maybe one last word on the text is. ⁓ is about the mezuzah that's mentioned. Mezuzah is the scroll that's affixed on the front of Jewish households, even in secular Jewish households in Israel, and certainly ⁓ in the UK. And the text reads, Afilu mezuzah ahad, even if you found one mezuzah in the idolatry city, that would be enough of a sign for some kind of restraint militarily. And For me, that's moving. I don't know whether that is a bridge point with more kind of more pious or fundamentalist communities, but there's something in the rabbinic voice which is trying to moderate any draw towards violence that we, even if we find one, ⁓ you know, in the story of Abraham, if we find one. pious person or in the story of Abraham, what ten pious people in the city, that would be enough to stop the destruction. That feels like a very strong call to moderation and ultimately to peace and liod rodif shalom, to be people who want to be in relationship, at least an attempt to be in relationship with peace. Yair Eldan: We overlap in that sense, but I want to add, as a legal scholar, I want to add this dilemma that I have because I love the interpretation that says even if it has one mezuzah, which is saying... Listen, I would do anything to moralize the text, which is wonderful. The legal text, which I am committed to it, even, and that's the dilemma. When I do that, I actually annihilate the text itself because I say that the text itself... you don't have to take it too seriously. It's not a very actual text because you will always find one mezuzah in a Jewish city, right? So it's not an actual legal text which minimized or ⁓ diminished in a way the Torah itself. So it's very brave and I love it, but there is a very, you know, a very... delicate balance here between respecting the text ⁓ and the one hand and moralizing the text and the other and it's so interesting to see, know, to see it in the movie. Oliver Spike Joseph: So we're going to start to wrap up. Yeah, yeah, what does this all mean personally? Like if we can just like make this really Jewish, but really Jewish about us, what is, what are this, what does this conversation about war mean to you right now today, Monday, second of March, 2026, the day before Purim? Yair Eldan: means always being critical. I mean, it's Jewish for me. To think about the situation even if I feel that there is something very just about this war, even when I feel threatened, even when I am concerned about my children's life, my life and my loved ones. to still question, criticize, think about the consequences, think about the justification of the work. ⁓ That sentiment in my identity is connected to being Jewish. How is it in your side? Oliver Spike Joseph: I think I won. I want a tradition where we really think. mean, I think it's very close to you. need to find more disagreement, Yair, otherwise this podcast is going to be a big flop. No, I think I want to have a tradition and a conversation in our Jewish community, which is really considering all the angles, which is really considering both the call to violence and the inner call to find retribution. Yair Eldan: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Oliver Spike Joseph: and quench our anger, certainly in the days and weeks after October 7th. And I also want to hear the like loud and resounding calls for peace and moderation and not lifting up sword against another nation or against each other. But I want for them to be in conversation. I need for them to be in conversation because we've done today is very Jewish, is really Jewish, is to put the two different opposing parts in the same room together and talk about them and say both of these, Gam Zo Le'Tova, both of these aspects is this, and both of these aspects are crucial. And it doesn't necessarily change, it doesn't change the course of history. We're two guys in a Zoom room. We're two guys learning Torah together. But the communal effect is significant, that we hold the complexity together. That's what I learned from my teachers, to hold the complexity, especially around these most crucial ideas. And unfortunately, certainly in a UK context and a European context, the opposite has happened. In the last two and a half years, the communities have gone diametrically to the opposite position and nobody hears from one another. What we've tried to do today is I think, at least in part, present some of the root parts of what it is to be in both corners at the same time and say, this is really tough. ⁓ and ⁓ the moral trajectory or the correct path is hard to find, but there is, in our tradition, are parts that have already spoken to these corners of the story for thousands of years. You wanted one more word. You always have the last word, you're here. Yair Eldan: ⁓ thanks. Well, I'm just saying, I was thinking about your comment about our disagreement and agreement, and I felt in our conversation that we had this... We started to go part when you talked about your... you know, your sentiment towards the Torah. and I needed a clarification. I think there is something, think the gap between us, because we are both, you know, come from, I'm secular, but you are a progressive rabbi, but I think the fact that you are a rabbi and I am... a person which lives within itself and you have a more responsibility or a feeling of responsibility towards community, towards Jewish life as a whole. That's the real gap between us. That's what I think. It will be revealed in the next meetings, but I think that's the real gap between us. I am more within myself and my thoughts and my scholarly thinking and you are more... sensitive about what will be with the Jewish people as a whole, as a community, ⁓ I think that could be something that we don't agree and our paths are divided. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Man, yeah, very interesting here. Interesting to see how that will play out. Listen, I'm grateful for the conversation. We're gonna wrap up here. I wish you guys a few days, the next days of safety and of peace and quiet, God willing. What crazy times to live in and let's hope for more peaceful days ahead. Thank you for listening to Really Jewish. ⁓ If you got this far in the podcast then please let us know. Let us know what you thought about the podcast. in touch. We had a hundred listens in our first few days of this podcast. This podcast will come out early before the Festival of Purim with a bit of luck. ⁓ Follow us on Instagram. Share some of our videos to spread some of the message of this podcast. We think it's important to get some of these words out there. Instagram, TikTok or Facebook. Wherever you see this message, this podcast, please review us and offer us five stars. We are wheels up really producing this on the hoof. So if you want to join us in any way or another to edit or to promote this podcast, let us know. We're looking for some good people just to support us. And finally, if you want to support us on Patreon, you're very welcome. All the links are in the show notes and... Purim Sameach, all of those people are celebrating both in Jerusalem Shushan Purim and tomorrow ⁓ for the rest of the world ⁓ Purim on Tuesday and join us next week for more from us at Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Thank you so much Yair. Yair Eldan: Thank you Oliver. See you soon.