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General Daniel Allyn · Five Questions for a General

• 0:03
  Speaker A: You're listening to Five Questions for a General, a production of the Modern Morris Institute at West point. I am Dr. Charles Feint, the team lead for this podcast series which features interviews of senior military leaders conducted by specially selected and trained West Point cadet hosts. These exchanges produce timely, relevant, and inspirational insights for professional development of leaders at all levels.
• 0:25
  Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the class of 1974 recording studio and the five questions for a General Podcast. I'm Cadet Nick Battinelli, your host, and it is my pleasure to be here today with General retired Daniel Allen. General Allen graduated from West Point in 1981 and went on to serve in a variety of positions of increasing responsibility, culminating as the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army. He also commanded the 18th Airborne Corps and the United States Forces Command. General, welcome to the show.
• 0:53
  Speaker C: Thanks, Nick. It's an honor to be here.
• 0:56
  Speaker B: So, General Allen, just a quick background question. Can we start with a little short origin story? What prompted you to want to attend West Point and join the Army?
• 1:04
  Speaker C: Yeah, well, this is a question I always enjoy answering because it's not your traditional path. As a junior in high school, I was offered the opportunity to listen to a West Point recruiter, and by attending his presentation, I could get out of chemistry lab. I figured that no matter what this briefing was like, it had to be better than chemistry lab. And so I went in and listened to the presentation, liked what I saw, and then put in my application. And I think I was probably one of the last cadets selected for the class of 1981. I found out on the 6th of April that West Point was offering me an opportunity to come here. I'm thankful that I had that opportunity presented, and I feel like I tried to make the best of it from that point forward.
• 1:53
  Speaker B: Sir. Moving into our questions, here at West West Point and out in the operational force, we often hear about the importance of readiness. You often emphasize that readiness is the Army's number one priority during your time as Vice Chief of Staff. In practical terms, what does true readiness mean? Beyond training metrics and equipment status reports, what does it look like in the mind of a battalion commander?
• 2:13
  Speaker C: Yeah. Well, let me first say that you often hear that your number one responsibility as a platoon leader in the United States army is to take care of your soldiers and accomplish the mission right. And the most important way that you take care of your soldiers is ensuring that they are ready for the tasks and missions that the country may ask of them. And so, at its core, readiness is about ensuring that our soldiers and our leaders never face a scenario in a combat environment that they haven't had the opportunity to train to in peacetime and in garrison environment. And so I like to make this really clear. You don't want to fill in the blank on if only I had done this training for my soldiers before we went to combat. You ought to be able to say, okay, we looked at what the future held for us. We trained to tough, exacting standards repetitiously and our soldiers, when faced with a situation in combat, knew what to do and they executed violently. So that to me is what readiness is all about. And all of our battalion commanders are going to provide a mission essential task list for our company commanders and our platoon leaders. And they expect our lieutenants to train to those repetitiously to master the fundamentals and to ensure their soldiers are ready for whatever mission they get asked to perform.
• 3:44
  Speaker B: Sir, do you have any recommendations for a future lieutenant from the lieutenant standpoint of meeting that battalion commander's mission in tent and that metal and then training your platoon to that standard?
• 3:55
  Speaker C: Yeah. Obviously if you're given a mission essential task list, you're going to be given the resources necessary to train to those tasks. And if you find yourself shorthanded on resources, I think it's very important as a lieutenant to think about not what I can't do because I don't have X, but rather what can I do to train to the best of our ability within the resources that we have. I would tell you that I served in some great units in the United States army that were very well resourced. But I would also tell you I don't ever think I had everything I thought I needed to train to the highest level that I hoped to train. Right. So you take the resources that you have, the most important of which is time, and you ensure that your NCOs are prepared to lead that training. And to ensure that. Sure. That you get enough repetition to master the fundamentals and to meet the standards of that task before you move on to more complex tasks.
• 5:00
  Speaker B: Yes, sir. So, sir, you led troops at every level, from platoon to corps. At what level of command did you feel your leadership mattered most and at which level did you feel the loneliest?
• 5:10
  Speaker C: Yeah, I would offer to you, I don't think there was a single level of leadership where the leadership that we provide each and every day is unimportant. It's always very, very important. I would say when you're in a leadership position in a combat environment, obviously hugely, hugely impactful. And it's the crucible measure by which we determine success or failure as a leader is when you have to provide that leadership in combat. Now, in terms of which leadership level do I felt like I had the greatest impact, I would say that was probably at the battalion command level because you not only are shaping the future leadership of our serving company commanders, but you are providing leadership examples and opportunities and frankly inspiration to all the lieutenants in the battalion who hopefully can look up and see through the leadership you're providing theirselves. Continuing to serve in our Army. One of my success metrics as a battalion commander was how many of those lieutenants continue to serve and stayed in the army as opposed to deciding to get out. And I can tell you that several of those platoon leaders that I was fortunate to serve with as a battalion commander are still in leadership positions in our army today. And that's a very rewarding feeling. I think the counsel I would offer is that it's best to share your experience whenever you're in a leadership position. So if you're a platoon leader, sharing that experience with your platoon sergeant with some of your senior squad leaders helps you to prevent that feeling of loneliness because frankly, you know, it is, it is a truth out there. There are moments in command where it can be pretty lonely. And I would say that the loneliest feeling is when you to make a decision that affects the future career opportunities of your soldiers. And that can sometimes pit what your heart is telling you to do with what your stewardship of the profession might be calling on you to do. That can be a lonely position. But just like there's a show out there that allows you to phone a friend, the ability to reach out to mentors in situations like that, if you're not in a time compressed environment is always a wise move to make.
• 7:45
  Speaker B: Sir. So you discussed kind of your some of your success criteria as a battalion commander. What did you look for in your new lieutenants in terms of your expectations of them and how they can meet those expectations?
• 7:58
  Speaker C: Well, first and foremost, you're going to arrive at your first unit in the United States army with your reputation already preceding you. And what do I mean by that? Well, your soldiers are all going to know where you graduated from. They're going to know that you've had a very, very thorough prepar before coming into this leadership. And they're going to have high expectations. Right. And you're going to need to earn their trust every single day. And on a very positive note, if you earn that trust, as I'm sure you will, your NCOs and your soldiers are going to exceed your expectations in trying to accomplish the mission and make you successful. So you're, the battalion commander, when you arrive, is going to expect you to be a learning leader. He's not going to expect you to be perfect in day one, but he's going to expect you to be fit, to be tough, to be ready to make decisive decisions when required, and to be the type of leader that learns from mistakes and is better on day two than you were on day one.
• 9:07
  Speaker B: Sir, you've written and spoken about the importance of leadership in combat, especially drawing on your time commanding the 1st Cavalry Division in Iraq. What leadership lesson from Baghdad or Mosul still shapes how you think about developing young officers today in the age of AI and drone warfare?
• 9:23
  Speaker C: Yeah, well, first of all, first of all, I had several of my brigade combat teams that served in Iraq and Mosul and Baghdad. But when I was with 1st Cavalry Division, I actually deployed the division headquarters and our combat aviation brigade to Afghanistan. So my lessons as a division commander really came from that Afghan experience. And the environment was tough. Obviously, this was in the 2011, 2012 timeframe. We were in the midst of trying to transition the lead for security operations across regional command east from US Led with Afghan support to Afghan led with US Support. And that was a much tougher task than it might be sound at first because once you've demonstrated the prowess of, you know, the United States army doing military operations in combat, our allies are often ready to enable us to be the lead. And they, they don't, they don't necessarily feel they're ready to take over that role. And so that was quite a challenge in leading them to that ability. But it was one that once we phrase it to them as Afghans securing their nation, they took ownership. They recognized that after we left, they were going to be the ones performing the mission. Now, when you see the impact of drones, artificial intelligence and other modern technologies, the reality is you're going to be visible on this modern battlefield. You're going to be visible physically visible, electronically, technically. And so the reality is you've got to be not only a great cyber defender and counter drone technologist, you've got to do the basics every bit as well as. Well, you know, if you listen to what, what some of the lessons that are coming out of the Ukraine. While drone and counter drone operations and artificial intelligence are game changers for the vast majority of Ukrainian soldiers, they're fighting out of a trench for months and years at a time akin to the conditions that soldier faced in World War I. So while modern technology has transformed and changed in some respects, there's aspects of being a soldier in modern combat that look dangerously like the early 1900s instead of where we are today, heading toward 2030.
• 12:11
  Speaker B: Sir, in 2015, you spoke about the need for adaptability in a rapidly changing security environment, noting that the army had to be globally responsive and regionally engaged. Looking back, where did the army succeed in that transition and where did it fall short? And what does adaptability mean for today's Army?
• 12:29
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, frankly, I'm very, very proud of how our army adapted both regionally and globally during the, you know, the early latter parts of 2015-2020 timeframe through to today. In the midst of that transformation that we were beginning in 2015, that you spok, Putin and the Russian military began taking actions in Eastern Europe that required us to begin rotating brigade combat teams, armor and heavy brigade combat teams into Eastern Europe on a regular basis. And this was at a point in time when we were trying to increase our presence and rotational presence in the Pacific. And so you've often heard it said, plans are interesting, but they usually don't survive first contact with the enemy. Our army had to flex, had to deter against the threat that currently faced us versus prepare for the one that we thought was our longer term threat. And I think, you know, if there's an area where we were challenged as an army, the fact of the matter is when we had rotational forces going into Eastern Europe, while Simon simultaneously rotating armored brigade combat teams on the Korean peninsula, you know, you can only spread the force so thin before it begins to have readiness impacts. And so I think the size of our force became a limiting factor for us and forced us to assess just how much of regional engagement we could do while sustaining readiness. And that's, that's always a balancing act.
• 14:23
  Speaker B: Sir, as technology continues to develop and the army continues to adapt, what would be your recommendation to lieutenants and leaders at the platoon level in terms of integrating new army technologies and working them in to get their soldiers time and training with the weapon systems?
• 14:39
  Speaker C: Well, I think you answered your own question. The most important thing, obviously, is training with, to enable mastery. But I would first make sure that we've mastered the fundamentals. We do that repetitiously while continuing to integrate best available technologies that give us the lethal edge on the battlefield. You know, I had a assistant division commander when I was a battalion commander in the 82nd Airborne Division who had a concept called F cubed. I won't say the first F, but it was about not giving the enemy a fair fight. Right. In other words, you want to ensure that every tool at your disposal as a leader is being integrated into your concept of operations so that you have the least lethal advantage and you don't give the adversary a fair fight if you have the opportunity to influence that in any way. And so the point I would offer to us as leaders is to always be asking ourselves, what else could I bring to this fight that is sitting idle and is at my disposal? Right. And if you're constantly asking those questions and listening to your soldiers when they have ideas about that, I think you'll ensure the enemy doesn't get a fair fight when the day comes.
• 16:00
  Speaker B: So, knowing what you know now, what advice would you offer your younger self?
• 16:06
  Speaker C: First of all, it'd be great to be my younger self. But the first thing I would say, I would give the opportunity over tonight if I had the chance to continue this journey as a leader in the United States army, because leading soldiers is probably the greatest privilege that I was given while serving in the United States Army. But I would offer that, you know, staying true to who you are as a leader, trusting in what you've learned here at West Point, living up to our values each and every day, and. And just working your very best every day to be the best leader you can be for the soldiers that you're privileged to lead. If you do that, I can almost guarantee you you're going to fall in love with soldiers and soldiering and leading the way that I did. It's just an unbelievable opportunity that we get as leaders of the United States Army.
• 17:02
  Speaker B: Sir, as someone who has led large formations in combat, what do you believe civilians most misunderstand about how modern generals make decisions in war?
• 17:10
  Speaker C: Well, I think if I were to slightly rephrase how you've stated that, I think one of our great responsibilities as we rise in positions of greater responsibility, is to become more effective at leading up. Right. Part of our responsibility is no longer just to ensure the readiness of our units under our command, but also to ensure our leaders above us understand the environment, understand the resource requirements that come with that environment that we're being asked to operate in and where they have a less than full understanding of what our mission is and how we go about performing that mission. It's our job to help fill in those blanks and help educate. And I think sometimes we might be able to say, hey, I just wish they understood more. But if they don't, that's Our responsibility to help close that knowledge gap and help enable the best possible decisions by those that we are led by.
• 18:19
  Speaker B: Sir, after retiring from active duty, you've remained engaged in leadership development and corporate advising. What leadership principle translates seamlessly from the battlefield to the boardroom and what absolutely does not?
• 18:32
  Speaker C: Well, first and foremost, I think every human being deserves and expects good leadership. Right. And so that's true of every environment, whether that's the battlefield environment or the corporate environment. So helping to ensure that we develop leaders that understand to accomplish any task, any mission, any requirement requires leaders who take care of their people, develop their people, and listen to those that they lead. So that to me is a direct translation. You know, one of the big differences between working in the private sector and working in the Department of Defense is that revenue is king in the corporate environment. And so the reality is that they have to meet metrics for revenue generation. That's not something that we deal with wearing the uniform most of the time. And so that is a key difference. And it can sometimes work at odds with how we might see the best way to run an organization.
• 19:44
  Speaker B: Sir, during your time in uniform, the army faced sequestration and significant budget pressures. How did fiscal constraints shape your strategic decisions and what advice would you give senior leaders navigating similar resource constrained environments today?
• 19:58
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's a reality of service in the United States army, certainly, particularly at the more senior levels. You are always fighting resource constraints. The reality is, even at times when our army has been asked to reduce its size, our mission requirements have not reduced correspondingly. So we find ourselves with a force that gets stretched very thin trying to meet the mission with constrained resources. I think the most important tool that we as leaders have in a resource constrained environment is our priorities. Right. So you prioritize that which must be done first and you resource according to those priorities. And then you make sure that the leaders above you understand where is the cut line between what I'm resourced to do based on the missions you've given me and where those resources fall short? And as long as you've explained that back up the chain, that now means they're accepting the risk. If item number 6, 7 and 8 on your list of priorities doesn't get done to standard because you don't have the resources to do them. So you don't assume that risk, you elevate that risk and ensure they understand and can maybe reconsider the resource allocation that's coming your way. And I would also offer to you as a leader, the number one resource you'll fight for every single day is your time. And so learning how to master time management, both personally and for your organization is a daily opportunity for you to demonstrate excellence. But it can be very, very challenging from time to time.
• 21:45
  Speaker B: Sir, you've long advocated for leader development grounded in character as much as competence. How should the army and the military more broadly measure and cultivate character in a profession that often defaults to quantifiable metrics?
• 21:59
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really great question. I had the opportunity to spend a great part of this afternoon with the MX400 group talking about some of those exact issues. And the reality is, as a leader of character, you're going to face dilemmas routinely. Some of them in the training environment, some of them in the garrison environment, and some of them in the. And the combat environment. And what you've been taught here at the United States Military Academy has prepared you to make the right calls in those situations. Have you been able to rehearse them all? Probably not. But do you understand about choosing the harder right over the easier wrong? Do you understand about trust and verify to ensure that that those you lead are leading by high standards and holding people accountable? Absolutely. And at the end of the day, when you are given a task and a responsibility to fulfill a mission, if you follow and hold to your values and to what you know to be true, you're going to find yourself making the right call. And your leaders and your soldiers will be the beneficiaries of that.
• 23:21
  Speaker B: Sir, if you could give one candid piece of advice to a newly minted second lieutenant preparing for combat, what would it be and what would you tell them to ignore?
• 23:31
  Speaker C: I would say master the fundamentals, right? Assess the missions that you've been given, the environment that you find yourself in, and train your organization relentlessly and repeatedly on the conditions in the environment that you think they're going to face. I think I said it earlier, the one sentence you don't want to fill out as a leader coming out of a combat mission is if only I had fill in the blank. Right? If you think you're going to face a certain situation in a combat environment, train to it and train to it till you're comfortable. You know and your leaders know. This is how we're going to do it if we face this scenario.
• 24:17
  Speaker B: Well, General Allen, thank you for sharing your time with us today and for the great discussion about the readiness, leadership and adaptability on behalf of Colonel Pat Sullivan, the director of MWI, and Dr. Charles Feint, the director of this podcast series, I'd like to present you with this rare and coveted MWI coin as a token of our appreciation.
• 24:35
  Speaker C: Well, thank you, Nick. That's awesome, sir. I. I will give this a treasured place on my growing collection. Just. And thanks for your leadership. And I wish you the best of luck as you get ready to join the great climb to Glory Formation up at Fort Drum.
• 24:51
  Speaker B: Yes, sir. Thank you for your time today.
• 24:52
  Speaker C: Cool.
• 24:57
  Speaker A: This has been an episode of Five Questions for a General, a production of the Modern War Institute of West Point. If you like what you heard today, please download, like, subscribe and share this podcast to help us reach an even larger audience. All statements in this podcast represent the personal views of the speakers and do not represent an official position of the United States Military Academy or the United States government.