Latest / Half the Picture / Jamali Maddix talks punching up vs punching down, comedy idols & documenting society's extremes (4K)

Transcript

Jamali Maddix talks punching up vs punching down, comedy idols & documenting society's extremes (4K) · Half the Picture

0:00
I love it.
0:00
You look like a guy who has a film podcast.
0:04
Do you know what I mean though?
0:06
It's not off brand.
0:08
It's proper like, if I saw him on the street, I'd go, I bet he's got a film podcast, that guy.
0:12
Yeah.
0:13
I just realized I had my sunglasses on the whole time.
0:16
I was like, such a cunt.
0:18
Yeah, man, the art man.
0:20
Oh, fuck it.
0:21
I'm an idiot.
0:23
Yeah, yeah.
0:23
That was because of their prescription.
0:26
So I forget that they, you know what I mean?
0:28
This is because I've got bad eyes.
0:29
And they said I've got to wear sunglasses because it'll fuck up my eyes more.
0:33
But I really like the guy from Jay and Silent Bob, the blonde hair brother.
0:38
Oh, Jason Mewes?
0:40
I think he's, I think he's, in that film where Zack and Miriam makes a porno, he's so fucking funny.
0:45
Yeah.
0:46
Yeah, he's such a good comedy actor.
0:48
Yeah.
0:48
I know he's had his problems.
0:50
with whatever, but he's fucking funny, man.
0:54
Yeah, Kevin's talked about how, obviously they're such good mates.
0:58
And then even on stuff like Dogma.
0:59
I don't know if you've seen Dogma.
1:01
Yeah, I think he said to him, obviously Muse is great, but he's like, we're acting about Alan Rickman here and Damon and Affleck, we've got great people here.
1:09
We got, right, we've got to focus up.
1:11
And I think Dogma, again, another underrated.
1:13
It's got some great stuff in it.
1:14
Yeah, Dogma.
1:15
I love that.
1:16
Have you ever seen the clip where in Dogma,
1:18
It came out, and all the...
1:20
I think it was like...
1:22
The right-wing Christian...
1:24
evangelicals started protesting outside the cinema.
1:27
Mm.
1:28
And Kevin Smith joined in the protest and they're filming him.
1:31
So the news crew are like, why are you protesting?
1:33
He's like, I just think this film's disgusting.
1:35
And it's blasphemous.
1:37
And if they don't know it's Kevin Smith, it's like, this is a disgusting thing you've done.
1:42
This is really funny.
1:43
And then the news reader twigs and goes, I've just heard in my ear, are you Kevin Smith?
1:47
And he goes, how dare you say I'm Kevin Smith.
1:51
I mean, what do you think, like, I guess, when I've spoken to, like, filmmakers, actors, writers, what have you, like, you know, I ask them, like, you know, what makes a good writer or director?
2:00
Like, what do you think makes, I mean, you, because you've done so much, so much in comedy and beyond, like, you know, documentaries and stuff.
2:05
Like, what do you think makes a good comedian?
2:12
What makes a good comedian?
2:13
I think even, like, the idea of...
2:17
Good.
2:18
It's too...
2:19
Comedy is too subjective.
2:21
I can watch something and think it's bollocks.
2:23
You can watch it and think it's genius.
2:25
And we're both right.
2:26
Do you know what I mean?
2:27
So it's like... Humour is too subjective of a thing.
2:31
I think it's probably the most subjective.
2:34
Is it the most subjective art?
2:35
I don't know.
2:36
I'd like to think so, but it's probably not.
2:39
I think it makes a good comedian.
2:41
I think it's... For me, I would say it's like perspective.
2:44
Perspective.
2:45
Like, how do you view the world?
2:48
And how can you translate that to an audience?
2:51
Do you know what I mean?
2:54
I don't necessarily always judge a comedian based... Because I think you can be a great comedian and have a bad showing.
3:01
Do you know what I mean?
3:02
Sometimes I'll watch new people.
3:05
And I can tell, and I think I suffered from it too, because I remember my agent from before, he said to me one time, he goes, you know, he was sort of saying to the clubs,
3:16
He goes, yeah, Jamali, and this is when I first broke in.
3:18
He goes, Jamali's great, but he needs a new 20.
3:21
And it's saying that he's a good, he's got potential, but the stuff he's doing now isn't his fault, isn't good, or isn't his potential.
3:29
But you can still see there's a good comic behind it.
3:33
I think that happens sometimes.
3:34
I see it with new comics where I can see the good comic in them, but it's not, the stuff they're doing isn't their potential yet.
3:42
Yeah, you can see the seeds.
3:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:44
So I don't know what it is then, because it's like, I think it's just something in you.
3:49
And I can't, and sometimes it's an untangible word.
3:53
It's a thing that I couldn't explain to someone.
3:55
It's just a thing you see.
3:57
It's a thing that's there, you know.
4:00
But the other things are like, like I said, perspective, being able to translate your ideas to an audience.
4:07
you know, and there's things that I like personally, you know, I like being spoken to, not spoken at,
4:15
You know, there's certain comedians where they're talking at you.
4:19
And it's fine, but it's not my... Like, I like being spoken... You know when that kind of style?
4:26
You know?
4:27
You mean when they're on stage?
4:28
Yeah, on stage.
4:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:30
Yeah.
4:32
Again, it's hard to explain.
4:33
Because I think comedy, particularly, is such a live art form.
4:37
And we kind of don't see it as live art form anymore because of...
4:41
like specials netflix and youtube and clips and crowd work and you know i mean all those things that we forget it's actually it's a live thing and i think it's a thing that you when you're in the room you you see it and you feel it and it's hard to translate that out and if you're not in there seeing it and feeling it it's hard to put into words i don't know if i gave you absolute dog shit answer there
5:02
No, it's really interesting.
5:05
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5:07
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5:11
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5:17
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5:20
That sort of je ne sais quoi of like what makes a good comedian, it almost sounds like it's how you view the world.
5:25
Like just how you view it.
5:26
Like that and what you're trying to say through your comedy.
5:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
5:30
Yeah, because what it is, it's just me trying to... Do you know what it is?
5:35
It's sometimes... Do you know what it is, yeah?
5:38
It's hard talking about comedy without sounding cunty.
5:41
Do you know what I mean?
5:43
I don't want to be the cross-legged rubbing my chin going, yeah, actually, but I guess people who listen to this want to hear people sound cunty.
5:50
I'm joking.
5:51
But it's...
5:52
It's... You ever like... You ever had like a dream
5:59
And you try to explain that dream when you wake up to someone.
6:03
And it just kind of sounds like mush.
6:06
And it kind of just sounds like, yeah, there was like, there was like a plane and, you know, and a bat.
6:10
And, you know, what the fuck are you talking about?
6:12
It's like sometimes thoughts can be like that, where you have this thing in your head and you want to translate it.
6:18
And I think that's kind of what comedy does sometimes is it's these kind of thoughts and feelings.
6:25
And then it's packaging it in a way that someone else who might not have those thoughts or feelings could understand.
6:31
Do you know what I mean?
6:33
Yeah.
6:33
And, yeah.
6:34
Yeah.
6:35
And then structuring that in a gag, say, okay, beginning, middle, end.
6:38
You're telling a story, and the punchline is the finale, the end.
6:42
Because I think a lot, like comedy, you see, like...
6:47
The thing with comedy, there is some type of rules and structure.
6:51
You've got rule of three, pull back and reveal, all these things, right?
6:58
There is structure to it, but...
7:02
I think for me, the more important thing is what's the feeling behind those things.
7:07
And I think they're tools to get across your perspective.
7:12
But I don't necessarily, but all of them rules as well.
7:15
I think when you first start out, you should know those rules and know what that, you should know what a pullback or reveal is.
7:20
You should know what all of that is.
7:21
And then once you've learned it, then you can throw it away.
7:24
Yeah.
7:25
But you've got to learn that.
7:26
Yeah, you internalize it.
7:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:27
And then you can forget it.
7:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:29
Like, I don't write thinking I'm writing this, you know.
7:33
Yeah.
7:33
I mean, if I do write.
7:35
I mean, how do you write out of interest?
7:36
What's your sort of basic approach when you sit down and write a special or write, I guess, work on a documentary, write a documentary?
7:42
Like, how do you start?
7:43
Write a documentary?
7:44
What do you mean write a documentary?
7:45
Oh, the way I do stand-up in the documentary?
7:47
Yeah, and also like the documentary so you don't like hate thy neighbour, I guess.
7:49
Because I know your credits is like writer and obviously presenter.
7:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:54
The stuff when you... Oh, the stand-up.
7:56
The way I do stand-up in that documentary.
7:57
But if I'm talking about like just writing stand-up, I used to like try and write longhand, but it doesn't really work.
8:04
So what I kind of do is, is like I'll have an idea and I'll just write a bit of it.
8:09
And what I normally write is...
8:12
Pardon me.
8:13
I write the beginning of the idea, and I write kind of the end of the idea.
8:20
Like I know where I want to get to, but I have no middle.
8:23
And then I go on stage and work it out.
8:26
So a lot of it, I write on stage a lot where I just have a sort of idea in my head of what I want to talk about.
8:33
And then I just go up and try and talk about it and try and work it out up there.
8:37
But in terms of actually sitting there writing, I can't do it.
8:39
So as long as you know where you're going, it will work itself out along the way as you touch it out on stage.
8:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:45
But sometimes I'll just have an idea.
8:46
Like I want to talk.
8:48
Like I know what the...
8:51
it's like a premise.
8:52
Like I know the premise I want to do and I know kind of what the point of the premise is, but I don't know how to get there.
8:59
Or sometimes I'll just have like a point and I don't know why I think this point,
9:06
Do you know what I mean?
9:06
Like, I don't know why I think.
9:07
So say like, if I had a point where if I was writing a bit, sometimes a thing will come in my head and it'll be like, Trump and Jeremy Corbyn are the same guy.
9:16
I don't know why I think that.
9:18
I don't know if I do think that.
9:19
But I'm going to try and get to there.
9:22
Do you know what I mean?
9:23
Yeah.
9:24
And I don't know.
9:24
It's not even like a thought I've had or it's not a political perspective I have.
9:28
It's just those words.
9:30
I don't know why, but I'm trying to blend them words together and try and find something there.
9:35
Yeah, it sounds confusing.
9:36
I'm sorry.
9:37
No, no, it's fascinating.
9:39
It just sounds like fucking flubba, blah, blah, blah.
9:41
No, it's fascinating.
9:42
I mean, what was like, do you have like a particular memory of like what the hardest, do you remember the most challenging one of those was to get to like that answer, that punchline that you wanted to get to?
9:52
It's not like...
9:59
They sort of, like, it comes and...
10:02
So sometimes I'll write...
10:03
Sometimes I'll think of something and it's fully formed.
10:06
And sometimes it will take months to...
10:09
Sometimes it will take weeks.
10:09
Sometimes it will take days.
10:10
Do you know what I mean?
10:11
Sometimes I'll just have an idea.
10:13
I'll try it on stage.
10:14
It won't work.
10:14
I'll pull it into the back of my head and it kind of works itself out back there and then throw something back at me.
10:21
But in terms of like a defined moment where I was like, yo, I struggled with this bit.
10:25
I don't really see it like that.
10:27
Do you know what I mean?
10:27
Like it's always a it's an interchanging thing.
10:31
You know, like you don't have the same conversation with your crew every day in it, really.
10:36
Like you have different, that's life enough and that's what comedy is sometimes.
10:40
It's this ever evolving thing.
10:42
I don't, I kinda don't have this like, this is the act now and then that's it now.
10:48
I don't, so I can't think of a time where I had a very difficult time because it just, it's always evolving, it's always changing.
10:56
So sometimes, you know, you have this bit, it's killing, then it stops killing.
10:59
So you gotta throw it out and that.
11:00
You know what I mean, no?
11:02
When you first start, you work and work and work, and then you get your 20 minutes.
11:10
But you hold on to that 20 for so long.
11:13
And I think a lot of comics do, and I definitely did it.
11:15
I don't know if other comics definitely did, but I did.
11:18
I held on to it for too long.
11:20
And it starts with getting stale.
11:22
And these routines that used to kill don't kill no more.
11:27
Because you stop saying it.
11:28
Because, you know, sometimes you say, like, I had it one time where I was on tour.
11:32
And I did this tour for a couple months.
11:36
And then I had a big break.
11:38
And then I did the show again.
11:41
And the show just weren't as good as when I was on tour because a lot of the things I felt, because I remember like a lot of the show was about a breakup I had.
11:48
And I just didn't feel the same about the breakup anymore.
11:50
So a lot of that material just didn't mean anything to me.
11:55
So even as I'm saying it, it don't mean nothing.
11:57
You know, and I'm not really some comedians are good at it, but I'm not really good at putting energy into something that I don't feel.
12:04
Do you know what I mean?
12:05
Like some people can.
12:06
Some people are brilliant at it where they can just say the things.
12:10
And I wish I had that talent, but I don't have that talent.
12:12
You know what I mean?
12:13
Unless I feel it, it don't come out right.
12:15
Yeah.
12:15
You know?
12:16
Yeah.
12:17
So I don't really.
12:18
There's not really a time where I can think, oh, yeah, shit.
12:20
Yeah, that was.
12:21
Yeah, I really had to work on that bit.
12:23
Yeah.
12:23
Because it just, it changes, it evolves.
12:26
It's fluid, it's freeform.
12:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:28
And how did this whole...
12:29
It sounds like jazz.
12:30
It's really not jazz.
12:31
It's just fucking...
12:32
The bass holding everything together.
12:33
It's just pussy jokes, but you know what I mean.
12:39
It's jazz, man.
12:41
just put your other shades back on just like the cigarette you can't smoke in here you really cannot smoke a cigarette in here it's cool man I mean I actually do want to ask like going back to the beginning and like for you like how did this whole journey get started for you like what galvanised you to get into comedy like what was the thing that got you going so we're doing way way way back I don't know how far back you want to go but when I was like the way way back yeah way way so when I was like young
13:11
I always just like, there was like funny, I remember, I just remember, like my uncle was mad funny.
13:19
You know what I mean?
13:20
My uncle's just like a funny guy.
13:23
And I remember always like liking funny.
13:27
And I was always like a little, I was always like, I was, you know, tried to be funny, tried to, you know, always wanted to be funny.
13:34
And, you know, I had funny friends and, you know,
13:39
And then I decided that I wanted to be like... Do you know what?
13:45
There's something I actually forgot.
13:48
And it's something my auntie reminded me.
13:50
That when I was in primary school...
13:52
And I think this is actually the first time I performed and probably realized I wanted to be funny and have that thing.
13:59
I was in primary school and it was like a talent show.
14:04
I remember there was these two kids, Daniel and Declan, and they had this show called the D&D Show.
14:09
And I remember I said to them, I want to be involved in this.
14:12
They had a little sketch group thing.
14:14
And I was like, I want to be in it.
14:18
And I remember, do you remember when kids...
14:21
are performing and they start crying because they don't want to go on stage.
14:25
Oh yeah.
14:25
And that happened.
14:26
That was me.
14:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:28
That happened with them.
14:29
They started crying.
14:30
They didn't want to go on stage.
14:31
So my teachers went, just go out there.
14:34
And so I just went out, I had, bro, I just went out there.
14:36
And I remember I had this shirt on.
14:38
I was a little fat kid too, right?
14:39
And I had this shirt on and I just flicked my shirt up and I started doing it.
14:42
I started saying, I'm Harry Hill.
14:44
Didn't even watch Harry Hill.
14:45
I'd just seen it on telly.
14:46
It was this guy with his big fucking collars.
14:49
Yeah.
14:49
I had no concept of what he did last day.
14:52
I was like, I'm Harry Hill.
14:54
And I started dancing and I was like, shake my hand.
14:56
You can't, and just doing all that.
14:57
And then I got better laughs than that.
14:59
And I think from that moment, I was like, yo, I want that.
15:01
Yeah.
15:02
And then I didn't really understand what stand-up was when I was young.
15:06
So I just wanted to be a comedy actor.
15:08
I thought comedy was only like, you know, Robin Williams and Jim Carrey.
15:13
Like, I'd watch The Mask until the VHS broke.
15:17
You know what I'm saying?
15:18
Or Ace Ventura.
15:19
I remember the first time I saw Ace Ventura and I saw him coming out of the rhino's ass.
15:23
Like, I had never seen nothing like that in my life.
15:25
Oh, my God.
15:25
But it changed everything.
15:27
And then, you know, even other shit like, you know, watching...
15:31
you know, nutty professor and, you know, my auntie's,
15:35
they would always have bare pirate DVDs.
15:38
Like their whole, you know, like, you know, the little DVD stand, it was all pirates.
15:42
It was all the little plastic with a little paper, you know what I'm saying?
15:45
Yeah, like the photocopies.
15:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:47
And they would have all the American stuff.
15:49
So they would have all of like the, also the black American stuff.
15:53
So you have all of the, you know, the Martin Lawrences and Bill Bellamy's and all these kinds of films that weren't really available in English telly back then.
16:04
But,
16:05
And then I went to, and then in high school, I started, you know, then I sort of found out about comedy and stand-up.
16:15
And I was probably about 14, and I wanted to try it.
16:20
Yeah, and I went to college to do, when I was about 16, I went to college to do comedy acting.
16:28
But by then, I sort of realized it was like stand-up was the thing I wanted to do.
16:33
um yeah and then did my first show at 16 and i didn't do it again until i was maybe like 18 18 19 and um yeah and then started taking it seriously around probably about 20 21 i'd say i started taking it seriously yeah yeah and then um went full-time about 24 25
16:58
Because you won the... Is it the Chortle Comedy Award?
17:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:01
And that all happened because it all kind of fell together.
17:04
Because you had a tattoo.
17:05
Yeah.
17:06
Which I want to say, was there like a blood infection?
17:08
Yeah, yeah.
17:08
I got so your liars.
17:09
Yeah, it was this terrible tattoo I got.
17:12
This is awful.
17:13
What is it?
17:13
Look at the hands on it.
17:14
It's fucking horrible.
17:16
What is it?
17:17
It's a guy looking into a black hole.
17:19
Ah, I quite like it.
17:20
I mean, is Ty kind of coming off here?
17:22
Yeah, this is Ty.
17:24
Yeah, it's really bad.
17:25
It's really bad.
17:26
But anyway...
17:27
I had to get two different artists to do it.
17:29
So it kind of fucked up a bit.
17:30
The second guy tried to salvage it, to be fair.
17:32
He was a really nice guy.
17:34
He tried to salvage it the best he could.
17:36
But yes, I've seized the wrist and all that shit.
17:39
Anyway.
17:41
Yeah.
17:42
So I had won that.
17:44
And I remember I was sort of like, so when I did my heat, I had come out of hospital that day.
17:49
Because I'm not going to bore you with this.
17:50
I've said it on other podcasts.
17:51
But I went blind and was really ill. And I had applied for the Chiu'u competition.
18:02
And the day I came out of the hospital, I went and did my heat.
18:06
And I remember everyone was saying like, oh my God, your style is so laid back.
18:11
I was just fucking off my head on drugs and tired.
18:16
And I won the heat.
18:20
And then I got to the semis and won that.
18:25
And I got to the finals and I always said to myself,
18:29
because I was flunking out of Salford.
18:32
But they were kind of saying to me, you know, if you sort your shit out, we'll let you redo the year.
18:36
And I kind of said to myself, because at that point, I'm about 23 now.
18:41
And I'm sort of, I had moved to Manchester because everyone's telling me there's a lot of comedy up north that I could get work at.
18:47
And no one, no one would book me.
18:49
Like there's this comedy club that you do the gong shows.
18:52
I had a big comedy club in Manchester.
18:54
And if you do their gong, you know, it's like an entry point into doing the club.
18:58
And I'd won the gong like twice, but these wouldn't book me, you know.
19:02
And I felt like everything I was doing, I just weren't getting anywhere.
19:05
And, you know, and I was having to come back to London a lot.
19:09
because there was one club actually in Shoreditch, around the corner from where we're at, and I'm trying to keep this location quiet, in Shoreditch where, someone can steal your Smith's post, but I was, and he started paying me, but it was like a weekend here and there for like a hundred quid a night.
19:31
So that was just my train money.
19:33
And I was just really, really frustrated and,
19:36
And I think when you're young, you don't have a perspective of age and time.
19:40
Like, I used to think I was 24, and I used to think, oh, shit, I better start.
19:43
I'm getting old now.
19:45
You know, I'm 35 now, and I've realized that it does the most stupidest thing ever.
19:49
But I remember, and I was just really frustrated.
19:51
And then I said to myself, if I don't do well in this final...
19:55
Like, I don't got to win, but if I don't get an agent or if I don't get something from this, I'm going to quit.
20:00
And I remember I really worked on that set.
20:03
Like, I sat down every day and I went over it and I would go open mics.
20:07
I really worked on that set.
20:10
And then I'd win in.
20:11
uh, ended up winning and got an agent.
20:14
And then my agent said to me, he goes, you know, if you want, you can finish uni and we can put this comedy thing on part time and whatever.
20:21
And I said, fuck that.
20:22
I said, I want to just be a comic.
20:24
And he went, yeah, let's do it.
20:26
And, um, yeah.
20:27
And now I became comic from then.
20:29
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20:50
Well, you come across as such a great fan of comedy and of comedians.
20:53
And like, because on your podcast, you know, you've interviewed other comedians, people like Stuart Lee, who's obviously amazing.
20:57
I mean, do you have, so like you've already mentioned some of the names that when you were growing up, like what, who were the kind of, I guess, main touch points for you?
21:03
Like, oh, this guy is, this guy's great.
21:05
Or this woman's great.
21:06
Like, you know, the different comedians that you loved.
21:08
But I, do you know what?
21:10
Yeah.
21:11
I, I, I was, I'm a, especially when I was young, not so much now, actually, as I got older.
21:16
But when I was young, brother, you couldn't get me away from that telly.
21:20
When I tell you I was glued to that TV, all I did was watch TV.
21:24
I remember like, you know, like when there's kids and they're bad and so their mum says, you can't go out.
21:30
I didn't give a shit.
21:31
I didn't want to play outside.
21:32
I wanted to watch that telly.
21:33
You know what I'm saying?
21:35
And I just loved TV.
21:37
so i'd watch everything any any bit of something of someone trying to be funny i had to watch it do you know i mean so i would watch everything from like death comedy jam to 40 towers do you know i mean like i just loved it all you know i'm saying and i remember my mom had the death comedy jam dvds but i would watch that shit till they got scratched you know that and um
22:01
I would watch my auntie's house.
22:03
They always had all this like black American standups, but like really kind of niche ones that we didn't know about here, like Bruce Bruce.
22:10
And you know what I'm saying?
22:11
Like all these kind of ones.
22:14
And I'd watch every time I go to their house, I'd want to watch it to the point that like, we're not watching fucking Bruce Bruce special again.
22:20
You know what I mean?
22:21
But you know, I just had to watch all of it, man.
22:25
But you know, so comedians that really sort of, as I got older and sort of,
22:29
You know, because I think what you do is what I did was I watched everything and I kind of narrowed it down to stuff I really liked, you know.
22:35
And it's obviously, you know, like I remember when I was like 15, I saw Bill Hicks.
22:39
And for a 15 year old, that was cool.
22:42
This is a guy on stage with a cigarette talking about the government.
22:45
He's like, fuck it, you know.
22:47
um doug stanhope i really got into um dave chapelle you know stewart lee's i used to watch live at the comedy store on paramount and all of that stuff so yeah there was a lot of there was a lot of comedy comedians and comedy i watched yeah
23:02
I mean, those are some of the guys I loved growing up as well.
23:04
I remember seeing Doug Stanhope first on Charlie Brooker's Screen Wipe because he would give platforms to those kinds of content as well.
23:10
So those comedians, they're all, because I love those guys too, and they're all so, they operate out on the edges sometimes.
23:16
They go there, they explore new kind of, I don't know, maybe frontiers is too lofty, but they try new things.
23:21
It sounds like that's kind of the areas of comedy that you're interested in, like the ones that sort of go kind of to interesting places and places that you don't expect and kind of push things maybe a bit.
23:31
I just love I love it in all its forms You know what I'm saying
23:38
um like i do like that type of stuff too you know that stuff i've you know i definitely find interesting to watch and it's exciting for me to watch but i love in all his forms you know i mean um and i think people think boundary pushing is just saying like saying words you shouldn't say and all that stuff but i don't think you look like stewart lee like his boundary pushing is he sort of does stuff with the form that's that's odd you know i'm saying and interesting and
24:02
You know, I kind of like, you know, Harry Hill, you know, is was mad different and is mad different.
24:08
You know what I'm saying?
24:09
And, you know, but probably, you know, but does TV burp, which is a very mainstream show.
24:16
You know what I'm saying?
24:17
It's still interesting, you know, and so.
24:19
Yeah.
24:20
So definitely that comedy is something I like, you know, but I kind of like it in all its forms.
24:25
Everything from Stuart Lee to Jim Carrey coming out of the Rhinos ass.
24:28
All of it, man.
24:28
Ace Ventura, which by the way, I meant to say that is one of the funniest.
24:31
It's one of the funniest films ever.
24:33
And it's just so funny.
24:34
It's so funny.
24:34
It's just a guy crawling out.
24:35
Yeah, man.
24:36
It's a guy crawling out of a fake Rhinos ass, but you know what I'm saying?
24:39
It's butt naked.
24:41
It's so, you know.
24:42
So good.
24:43
So good, man.
24:44
And, you know, and, and, and I, and I remember seeing that and just,
24:50
Thinking that, you know, and I didn't know I could laugh that hard.
24:54
Do you know what I'm saying?
24:55
Yeah.
24:55
You know, you laugh to the point where it's like, I'm going to die.
25:00
Because this is so fucking funny to me.
25:02
You know, in the most basic ways, I fucking love laughing.
25:06
And it's just the idea of someone being able to make me laugh in that way.
25:11
You know, it's like, because it's sort of, I kind of...
25:16
I, the reason I fell in love with it, because there was people who could make me laugh like my friends made me laugh when I was smoking weed with them at, you know, and laughing to the point that you feel like you're dying.
25:30
And to have that replicated through someone else I didn't know is, yeah, it was fascinating to me.
25:36
Yeah.
25:36
And you've gone on from like strength to strength.
25:38
You know, you've toured all over.
25:39
I mean, you've toured America.
25:40
Yeah, yeah.
25:40
You've toured Britain and Europe.
25:42
I mean, I did want to ask that out of interest as someone who has toured America, like how does, how do you think like an American audience differs from like a British audience?
25:49
Say if you're doing stand up.
25:50
Well, I think that question is.
25:54
would have been a different answer maybe 10 years ago.
25:58
Because I think the world's a lot smaller now.
26:01
Like they watch Taskmaster.
26:05
They watch British telly now.
26:07
So it's not, you know, and it's like, we all kind of singing off the same hymn.
26:12
Like we all know the same things and references now.
26:15
You know what I mean?
26:17
There's still like some, like there's still like, there was like, we grew up with Americans.
26:22
So if I said to you, I'm in a Walmart in Alabama, you've never been to Alabama, I'm guessing.
26:27
No.
26:27
But you've already set the scene in your head.
26:30
Totally.
26:31
Where if I said to them, I'm in a co-op in Brixton, they don't understand that.
26:36
Do you know what I mean?
26:37
No, but they go, what the fuck does that mean?
26:38
Yeah.
26:39
So there's that little thing.
26:41
And one of the big differences, like in England, I can do a thing where the show's going great, but I say, fuck me, this is going terrible.
26:51
and you you understand I'm joking yeah I don't mean that and it's and it's what's funny is the ridiculousness that I'm saying how bad this is even though it's we all see how fucking good this is going right and it's that sort of thing of my insecurity coming out and I did it in America and someone just shouted no it's going great yeah
27:14
it's like they can't they don't get it yeah do you know i mean like they don't get so that the idea of that yeah yeah of course i know they don't get it they're just like no it's good and they'll go come on believe in yourself you'll get support yeah yeah yeah genuinely they all start going we love it and you go yeah i know and i have to stop the show and say look at i know i know the point is is i know it's going well but you know
27:38
And then how do they respond to that?
27:39
They're like, oh.
27:40
They laugh.
27:41
Yeah, they laugh at that.
27:42
But it is that it was like a weird cultural thing, you know.
27:45
They take it at face value.
27:46
Yeah, yeah.
27:47
But on the whole, I think it's sort of the same.
27:49
I think funny translates.
27:51
Because one of the questions I get asked is like, oh.
27:54
How do you have to change your material when you go to America?
27:58
Like, I think even now they understand when I say bin, what they know what I mean.
28:03
If I say boot, not trunk, they get it.
28:06
Bonnet, not hood.
28:07
Yeah, they've, you know.
28:09
And plus like kind of like weirdly where I watch so much American telly, I might say trunk.
28:15
You know what I'm saying?
28:16
Or I'm one of those people that like a lot of English people get upset with.
28:20
Shut up, man.
28:24
But I, yeah, people ask, you know, how, why do you have to change, you know, how do you change your material?
28:29
It's like, but if you go here or, you know, or if I do a show in Finland or if I do a show in Romania or if I do a show in anywhere, if I did a show in, you know, Saudi or Dubai or whatever, we all have breakups.
28:48
You know what I'm saying?
28:49
We all have annoyances.
28:52
We all do the same things.
28:54
Do you know what I mean?
28:55
I think the human experience is a thing that's universal.
29:01
So I don't necessarily think you have to change too much stuff.
29:04
You know what I mean?
29:05
And it kind of made me write broader in terms of talk more about the human experience as opposed to just being like, oh, you know, I got on the bus and the tube.
29:14
And I think that stuff's good.
29:16
Like it's not me dissing that stuff.
29:18
But it's, I think it can sometimes be limiting if I'm just talking about that thing for, just because we both know it.
29:26
And that's what the bit is.
29:27
And I think that stuff's great.
29:28
But, you know, my thing is, is I think I try to now write something that's more human.
29:34
Because we all feel it.
29:36
Yeah.
29:36
You know what I mean?
29:37
They're more sort of universal stuff.
29:39
And we all experience that.
29:40
We've had a breakup.
29:41
We've all, you know what I'm saying?
29:42
We've all had that stuff.
29:43
So, you know, that's what I try to do.
29:45
Yeah.
29:46
I mean, what do you think the weirdest heckle you've ever had is on stage?
29:49
Do you have like, you know, do you have a memory of that?
29:52
I've been heckled so many times.
29:55
People get upset about weird things.
29:57
People get really upset about royal stuff, which I didn't get.
30:02
There was one in America, I won't say it's weird, but...
30:06
I was doing a show in Florida.
30:08
And you forget Florida is the South sometimes.
30:10
It's not just Disneyland.
30:13
Well, yeah, you go Miami and you forget you're in the fucking South.
30:16
But I did the show in Florida.
30:18
And the reason I did the show, I shouldn't have done a show there.
30:26
Because I got a dropout because one of the comics who couldn't come is actually Bruce Bruce.
30:31
And his crowd isn't my crowd.
30:34
And so I had sort of half of my crowd and then half of his crowd.
30:37
And it was a mad.
30:38
It was an odd show.
30:40
And I started doing some stuff.
30:42
And I don't really talk about God, but I mentioned it.
30:46
And a lady started screaming, I'm with Jesus.
30:49
and no one laughed and i was like oh yeah because that's normal here for you to sit here and say you you believe in this madness um and then the other one i had um i i was doing late and live in edinburgh and um some guys tried to whistle me off stage and i'm just doing my set it was just 10 blows it's all going
31:14
I thought you guys were whistling me off stage.
31:16
And they go, yep.
31:17
So my whole set, they're just whistling at me.
31:20
Not that catcall whistle, just the one note.
31:23
Just the one note.
31:24
Yeah.
31:26
Oh, man.
31:27
There was this one guy.
31:29
He would always come to the comedy club.
31:32
Every week on a Wednesday, he'd always come.
31:34
And he wore roller skates and a cowboy hat.
31:39
And he would never laugh.
31:40
And you'd just sit in the front row.
31:42
And whenever you brought him up, the crowd, for whatever reason, just wouldn't acknowledge that there's a guy in the front row with a massive cowboy hat and roller skates.
31:52
And you go, does no one else see this?
31:54
And the audience is like,
31:56
And you go, but this is fucking madness.
31:59
And he would come every week and I'd go, it's my fucking, it's my right, my enemy.
32:04
I'd always talk to him.
32:05
But, you know, people do weird shit.
32:07
What did he say?
32:07
Nothing.
32:08
He didn't see you.
32:09
Just stare at you.
32:11
Odd guy.
32:12
Yeah.
32:12
Character.
32:13
Oh, as I'm saying, he probably had some severe men.
32:17
Can't zoom around no more.
32:20
Well, I mean, I mean, I mean, touching on like, so of course, you've been stand up and then you've also a veteran of so many of, you know, the other formats of comedy, like television comedy, obviously like panel shows, Taskmaster game shows.
32:34
You've done so much.
32:35
That hurt my feelings.
32:36
Veteran?
32:37
I'm an old man now.
32:38
I realized that the other day.
32:39
I was like, I was like, well, I'm up and comer.
32:42
Yeah.
32:43
I still want to be up and comer, bro.
32:45
I want to be a one to watch.
32:46
I said that to my agent once.
32:48
I was like, why can't I still one to watch?
32:50
And he goes, bro, we've seen you.
32:52
You've been watched enough times now.
32:54
You're not one to watch anymore.
32:55
In my head, I'm still like, I'm...
32:58
I'm stopping comma.
32:59
I thought, no, brother, you come and went.
33:00
Do you know what I mean?
33:04
Oh, man, no.
33:04
Nonsense, nonsense.
33:06
But, you know, you've done a lot in the time that you've been doing it.
33:09
Yeah.
33:10
Like Taskmaster, of course, and 8 Out of 10 Cats, and Nevermind the Buzzcocks.
33:13
You've done so many of those big shows.
33:16
And, I mean, comedy has changed so much.
33:18
I mean, talk about, I guess, like how comedy has changed.
33:19
Like, it's changed so much since I first was watching comedy shows and, you know, when you first, even just breaking into comedy, I think.
33:26
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:27
those circuits of like i guess the traditional route would have been like you start in stand-up maybe you go to Edinburgh maybe you get a tv show off of that and that still does happen i think yeah but there's but that whole those whole other kind of uh circuits have opened up like online comedy people going viral on TikTok i mean the infrastructure has changed i think over the last 10 or 15 years i mean what are your thoughts on that how things have changed and how comedy the infrastructure of how you get into comedy has changed yeah
33:50
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed.
33:53
It's definitely something different to when I started.
33:55
But when I started, so before I started, maybe just when I had started, but I was still at the bottom rung of open mic, it was sort of the idea what people would do is they would do Live the Apollo, do 8 out of 10 on Mock of the Week, and then sell a theatre tour.
34:14
Yeah.
34:15
When I came up, that was done.
34:19
That was over.
34:20
You know, you couldn't just do that and then be big.
34:23
Like, that was done.
34:25
and it was sort of like, so when I came up, it was like those panel shows, that's all shrunk down now.
34:31
There's no more real panel shows.
34:33
It was like panel shows and doing other bits and pieces, and online wasn't a thing then.
34:38
I mean, online existed, but putting your stuff out there wasn't.
34:43
How do I feel about the actual online thing now?
34:46
I mean, it just is.
34:48
I mean, again, if you asked fucking Ronnie Corbett,
34:53
About when I started, he would say it's an insanely different.
34:56
You know what I'm saying?
34:57
Like, I think it always changes and it always becomes something new.
35:00
And it's just how showbiz is and it kind of changes and molds.
35:06
Yeah, I don't.
35:08
I think the thing is with the whole online thing, there's so much good.
35:13
And then there's also bad.
35:14
I think it's like there's no system that's perfect.
35:17
And I don't think there is going to be a way where everyone's going to be happy, probably.
35:22
Yeah, I think it's got some great elements.
35:24
There's so many creative people who can make so much engaging, interesting content with just their mobile phone.
35:33
And I think, you know, technology also got different.
35:36
Like, you know, we're doing like a podcast.
35:38
You've got...
35:39
mad good cameras here.
35:40
But it's like, you know, you've got the Black Magics now and all these cameras that they're good.
35:46
You can make some fucking quality stuff and it's not, it's still thousands but it used to be, you know, a camera was what, how much is it the old school cameras back in the day when they've made films?
35:56
Cameras were tens of thousands and you can get a good setup, you know, free grand second hand
36:02
and you can get a fucking, you can make a little movie.
36:04
Mm.
36:04
Do you know what I'm saying?
36:05
So it's like, and you know, and you can get, you know, you've got the editing software now, you've got the Blackmagic editing software, the DaVinci one, which is free and, you know what I'm saying?
36:14
And it's like.
36:14
Which we use.
36:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:15
But do you know what I'm saying though?
36:16
It's like, you know, when it used to be used, I remember when I was at uni, I had to do fucking Avid.
36:21
Yeah.
36:22
Avid editing and you needed a whole Avid computer and a keyboard and you know what I mean?
36:27
It's like, it's so, you know
36:31
There's so much good.
36:31
I think one of the things I do worry about
36:35
is I think one of the things that a lot of, and I'm talking about this from a comedy perspective, and I think they were right.
36:42
It's not that they were wrong, yeah?
36:44
Is that there was an element of gatekeeping.
36:47
Like you hear that word a lot, gatekeeping, and there's the gatekeepers and stuff.
36:51
And that, you know, there was definitely true.
36:55
And they kind of, you know, the tastemakers, and they kind of maybe weren't on the pulse of what's actually relevant and hot and new and, you know.
37:04
But now it seems like there is a gatekeeper and it's called the algorithm.
37:10
And it's just kind of faceless ones and twos.
37:15
And there's no reasoning with it.
37:17
There's no convincing it.
37:19
It just is.
37:20
And it's this thing that kind of judges and you use certain words.
37:24
And I'm not talking about swear words.
37:25
I'm talking about important words.
37:27
Jump in and they fucking, nah, get it out of here.
37:30
Yeah.
37:31
Yeah.
37:31
You know, language is important, man.
37:33
You know what I mean?
37:34
We all worry about, you know, you see so many people online debating of, well, why can't I use a slur?
37:40
And all this mad shit.
37:41
And it's like, well, what about the fucking actually important words that are getting hidden?
37:44
You know what I'm saying?
37:45
And it,
37:46
You know, and it's like, you know, so it's like, you know, I'm not necessarily running full pelt into it being like, this is the best.
37:58
This is the revolutionary moment of creativity.
38:00
I don't know if it is.
38:01
You know what I mean?
38:02
And again, like I said, you know, some fucking amazing stuff going online and doing online and like, you know.
38:09
Like I just made a batch of documentaries and I'm putting them online because that's the channel now.
38:14
I saw on your Instagram.
38:15
Yeah.
38:16
Follow the leader.
38:16
Yeah.
38:17
So follow the leader was my last stuff I did on telly, but we put them online and they've got mad views online because that's just the channel now.
38:24
But I'm saying I self-produced some docs recently that I'm going to put online.
38:28
Cool.
38:30
So I'm using it.
38:31
I'm in it and I'm doing it.
38:32
I'm trying to do online.
38:33
I'm trying to be better at it because you kind of have to do it.
38:36
It's a full-time job.
38:37
It's a full-time job and I'm kind of having to do it.
38:40
But yeah, I think this is the one thing that I don't know if this algorithm is good.
38:48
Do you know what I mean?
38:50
Yeah, like I'm not sure.
38:52
You know, I'm not sure.
38:53
I haven't been convinced that this is good for me.
38:57
You know.
38:58
It's a faceless God, isn't it?
38:59
Well, it's just, yeah.
39:00
It's its own thing.
39:01
It's like.
39:02
And nobody really knows what it is.
39:04
And, you know, you sort of talk to people and everyone's sort of like, well, I heard if you do this and this and this is what it likes.
39:09
And it's just like, what?
39:11
Trying to appease it.
39:12
Yeah.
39:12
Yeah.
39:13
Just appease this faceless thing that someone created.
39:15
I don't know, man.
39:16
I don't.
39:17
I don't know if this is so good for creativity, but it is.
39:22
It's a double-edged sword, isn't it?
39:23
It cuts both ways.
39:23
It's weird.
39:24
And regardless of if it's good, bad, or in the middle, it is.
39:29
So I have to accept that.
39:31
And I have to just be what that, and trying to, you know, work within that confines, you know?
39:38
if I want to still be in this business.
39:39
For sure.
39:41
So, yeah.
39:42
So, you know, I don't...
39:43
I'm not, you know, yeah.
39:45
That's my idea on it.
39:46
I mean, out of interest, because you mentioned, just briefly, you mentioned the shows there, some of the shows that you've done on TV, and that would include, like, 8 out of 10 cats.
39:53
I mean, like...
39:54
As someone who's watched those shows, like how does one of those look when you're actually making it?
39:57
Like what's a typical like shooting day on that?
39:59
You go into the studio and like, do you go in with material or is it all improvised?
40:04
Like you're sitting there with like Jimmy Carr and all the other guests, something like that.
40:07
Is that all?
40:08
How does it look?
40:09
When I first started, it was, you'd really, you know, you'd write and everything, you know.
40:14
But as a, I've done it a few times now.
40:17
Like, I just, you know, you sort of have a bit of a perspective of what's going on.
40:21
And then you just kind of, you know.
40:23
Because I think the best stuff and I work best in the moment.
40:27
If I sort of write a bunch of stuff, it just kind of comes out of just waiting for you to throw something to me so I can go.
40:32
And yes, I think this.
40:34
As opposed to just being reactive and.
40:36
feeling it so I tried to be more like that now but that you know that took time and you know like I look if I if I look at my old appearances on stuff it was you know I can tell it was I was bad because it's a it's a it's a different thing it's like a different thing you have to learn and it's not necessarily wasn't necessarily natural to me I had to like really work at it you know sort of figure out what to do on those shows and this is like little things you know little things how to get
41:06
you know, how to get the host to ask me the thing so I can jump in and, you know what I mean?
41:10
Little things.
41:11
And you sort of, you know, it's all about keeping the ball in the air.
41:13
Yeah.
41:14
And all of that and throwing to someone else, if you, you know, and if I see that you've got something, a perspective on something and you're trying to get in, I'll go, would you, you know, little things, you know, and look, and then, cause it keeps it up.
41:25
Yeah.
41:26
I can jump off you and, you know, you can jump off me and it's, you know what I mean?
41:29
It's, yeah.
41:30
Yeah.
41:30
keeps it alive yeah yeah and one of the things I learned most is that if a joke bombs it doesn't matter because the guy who gave me the best advice was Bobby Mayer I don't know if you know Bobby Mayer comedian Bobby Mayer great one of my favourite comics and a good friend of mine and he gave me great advice where he goes just say things you just gotta keep on saying things and one of them will hit and that's the one they're gonna use hopefully I joke would bomb and I'd be so like oh shit
41:59
Oh, fuck, fuck.
42:00
It doesn't matter.
42:01
Because they just fucking chop it out.
42:02
Yeah.
42:03
Editing.
42:03
Edit it out.
42:04
I can't remember when I did Live with the Apollo the first time.
42:10
And I was really like, oh, fucking.
42:13
And Anthony was just like, bro, just play the camera.
42:17
You're good.
42:18
We got you.
42:18
You're good.
42:19
You'll be fine.
42:20
And that's it.
42:20
You just constantly play for it.
42:22
You'll be fine.
42:23
Yeah.
42:24
I mean, out of interest, one of the conversations about comedy these days that I'm aware of anyways, is people, some people say, oh, you know, you can make a joke about anything.
42:31
Yeah.
42:32
And you can punch up or down.
42:34
I mean, people say it all the time.
42:35
I feel like punching up, punching down that whole school of thought.
42:38
And then there are some of us, like Ricky Gervais obviously says, you can make a joke about anything, in my opinion.
42:42
And then someone like, I guess like a James Acast do, but they're like, hang on, I don't think that's true.
42:47
You know, you can't just make a joke about anything willy nilly and, you know, and expect there to be no consequence.
42:53
I was wondering what you thought about that, with the whole school of thought of, as a comedian, punching up, punching down, targeting, I guess, where you direct your comedy, I don't know.
43:00
I don't know if that, and it's not a criticism of your question, because I understand why you asked the question.
43:05
I think we speak about it, I think there's,
43:09
I think the conversation gets blew up a lot and it still gets sensationalized a lot.
43:18
I think...
43:21
I'm in a belief that you probably can make...
43:24
There's probably an angle on everything.
43:26
You know?
43:29
I don't necessarily...
43:31
I think sometimes what happens is people enjoy...
43:41
saying the thing as opposed to writing a joke about the thing.
43:45
And it's just sort of just like, I'm about to, and that's the enjoyment of it.
43:50
People say, Oh, the thing I'm about to, you know, and it's just, you know, I don't necessarily find that mad interesting, but I don't, yeah, I, I, I'm very much of what's the thing.
44:02
What is the joke said?
44:04
And I'll judge it based on that.
44:06
Or I'll give my perspective on that.
44:07
I don't necessarily believe in stopping someone saying something.
44:10
I think it's, you know, I think I'm quite unpoliceable.
44:15
And especially now with online, they'll find the market for someone who wants to hear it.
44:19
You know, but as a grown adult, I feel like I'm allowed to hear things.
44:24
Do you know what I mean?
44:25
And there is a certain element I do still kind of believe in where, you know, what?
44:32
you come to a show
44:34
And the context is you've come to this show.
44:37
And what's said here is just ridiculousness.
44:42
You know?
44:42
And then you leave the show.
44:45
That's it.
44:46
You know?
44:47
And it lives in this hour that we are together where I'm saying these ridiculous things.
44:53
You know?
44:53
And the context is that you know I'm joking.
44:56
You know I actually believe that stuff.
44:58
And that's probably been a bit lost probably.
45:00
I think that's where a lot of the arguments come from is...
45:04
It's not done with the you know I don't mean it.
45:11
I think there's a lot of people who do mean it.
45:15
They've probably soured it a bit.
45:19
I just kind of don't want to be told what I can hear.
45:22
But sometimes I hear stuff and I don't like it.
45:25
And I just don't like it.
45:27
And I don't listen to it.
45:28
Or I don't buy it.
45:30
You know?
45:32
But yeah, I don't...
45:33
I kind of don't really spend my time worrying about, like, what other people were, you know...
45:40
They said a thing.
45:42
You know?
45:44
So, yeah.
45:45
I don't know.
45:45
I think, you know, when I made them docs, and I sort of heard some of the most nastiest shit for two years straight, kind of dulled my senses of...
45:57
you know you know of all you know hearing bad things and sort of taking it personal and you know to myself so i don't know yeah i don't really have much to say about it that's interesting i'm sorry i don't care i don't you know it's a business fun yeah man well it is interesting it's i just want to be able to say what i want to say yeah
46:20
Do you know what I mean?
46:22
Sure.
46:22
And I do, you know, I don't like, there's something, you know.
46:25
Even though I do understand, I think sometimes it comes from a good place.
46:28
It is worrying of who's deciding what I can say.
46:30
Do you know what I mean?
46:33
He was gatekeeping that.
46:34
Who decides?
46:36
Who decides?
46:37
You know, because if it's sort of a bunch of middle class people, I don't want them deciding what I can say.
46:41
You know what I mean?
46:44
I don't think that's a good...
46:46
I don't think that's, that's, um, smart for me to sort of rush into that.
46:50
Yeah.
46:51
Yeah.
46:51
Tell me what I can say.
46:51
Oh, fuck that.
46:52
Yeah.
46:53
Yeah.
46:53
You know, but at the same time, you know, there is consequences to words.
46:57
I get that too, you know?
46:59
And I think it's, you know,
47:02
There's elements of probably, you know, people being upset about what I've said or, you know, it's trouble.
47:08
It's a broad, you know, I'm 35 years old.
47:10
It's hard to be in trouble.
47:11
But, you know, let's just, you know.
47:17
One thing I do notice, though, is, you know, those sort of guys who sort of do that type of stuff.
47:21
I just sort of like, that's their brand.
47:25
I say the poor, I say the unsayable is, and then they get upset when people get upset by it.
47:30
It's kind of like, that's kind of the point of the thing because you want people to be upset.
47:34
Then why are you lying and saying you don't?
47:37
Do you know what I mean?
47:38
Like you kind of, that's what drives that type of comedy is because some people love it and some people fucking hate you.
47:42
And it makes the people who love you, love you more.
47:45
So when they sort of go, and I hate that everyone's upset by it, you know, I sort of, it's kind of off topic.
47:53
I went to Berkeley University and I went to the Milo Neopolis.
47:58
I was filming.
47:58
I wasn't at the, but it's when Milo Neopolis, you know what Milo Neopolis is?
48:02
He was like a, it was like a, at one time, he was like a big right-wing sort of pundit, but he would say offensive things and his whole thing was like free speech here and stuff.
48:15
And he did a talk at Berkeley University and it caused a riot.
48:19
And I was there.
48:21
And it was like large left-wing contingency.
48:25
So like the sort of the, you know, the sort of liberals all the way to like the communists all sort of banded together.
48:32
And then you had the right wing all the way to the far right.
48:35
Proud Boys type shit.
48:37
And there was protests and fights and it was fucking insane.
48:42
And I had to, in my roundup, I basically said, basically what two of the sides are saying is, is,
48:50
what the argument really is, is you've got one side saying, you can't say that.
48:55
And it's, they just did.
48:57
And he goes, well, I want to say it.
48:58
He's like, you just have.
49:01
Do you know what I mean?
49:01
And that's kind of the argument we kind of see ourselves in.
49:05
It's a very roundabout way, but you know what I'm saying?
49:07
No, it's like, that's the argument really.
49:09
It's just...
49:10
One side saying you can't say what they have and one side saying what I want to say.
49:14
It's like, well, you just did.
49:15
So what's the argument?
49:16
Yeah.
49:17
What we're doing here.
49:17
Do you know what I mean?
49:18
No, that's kind of how I see the argument a bit.
49:20
Yeah.
49:21
Say what you want.
49:22
They're going to complain.
49:24
you don't want them to say it, they are.
49:27
That's it.
49:28
Yeah.
49:28
I think it's quite simple.
49:31
And I think it comes down to also like just who you are as a person, like whether you're a comedian or an orator or filmmaker or whoever.
49:39
And for you, because having seen your documentary work, which I really liked, and I really liked how open and honest and empathetic it is to the people that you're talking.
49:48
Empathetic in a sense of like just listening to them.
49:51
letting them tell their story and even no matter how extreme it is they you know like just sort of trying to understand them and and that's yeah i think i really like i try to do i try to see the i try to i see films or docs as three w's and i think uh
50:14
What they're saying is the sensationalism.
50:16
And that's what sells the film.
50:18
Let's be real.
50:18
That's what sells the film.
50:19
It's like this guy says this thing.
50:22
And then the most important one for me is who they are.
50:29
Who are they?
50:30
Who is that person?
50:31
And the most important one is why.
50:34
Why are they like this?
50:36
What is the real reason they are like this?
50:39
And I think the way to get there is to just have a conversation with them and on this conversation and sort of be there in their world.
50:47
You know?
50:47
Yeah.
50:47
And yeah.
50:48
Yeah.
50:53
Yeah, and I did it recently too.
50:55
And I do enjoy it.
50:57
I enjoy being in a world that isn't my world and sort of hearing it and exploring those, you know, I say exploring them ideas.
51:04
I think a lot of them are fucking horrible ideas.
51:06
But, you know, and just hearing it and sort of seeing.
51:10
I think, you know, it's weird when I made, especially the ones I made for Vice a few years back.
51:20
Yeah.
51:22
It was kind of odd where it was sort of we made it at this really interesting time when all of that stuff was on the rise.
51:32
And I don't think that show would work now because what was mad, because people were watching, oh, fuck me.
51:39
That's that, that, that guy's mad, isn't it?
51:41
Look at the mad stuff he's saying.
51:42
A lot of the stuff they were saying is kind of mainstream now.
51:45
Yeah.
51:45
You sort of hear mainstream politicians say, you know, which is worrying.
51:50
Very worrying.
51:51
Because at the time, the reason it worked was because how mad it all was.
51:54
And I can look at this mad cunt.
51:56
Yeah.
51:56
Fucking insane.
51:57
It felt pretty fringed.
51:58
Do you know what I mean?
51:58
But now it's,
52:00
It's quite mainstream.
52:02
I feel like we're always worrying about... We're always like, oh, it's coming.
52:06
But I think it's here.
52:10
You wait till it comes.
52:10
We go, nah, brother, we're here now.
52:12
It's been here for a while.
52:13
We're here, brother.
52:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:14
So, yeah, it was...
52:17
Yeah, so, you know, I wanted to explore and sort of talk to those people and hear those things and sort of, you know.
52:25
And yeah, man, and it's sort of what I learned from doing that.
52:29
I've sort of taken it to other eps, you know.
52:33
The last batch I did for Mindhouse, well, with Mindhouse, that's on the BBC right now, is I did like Passport Bros and...
52:43
I did one about pedophile hunters.
52:46
I saw that one.
52:47
Yeah, all those type of ones.
52:48
Predator Hunters.
52:49
Predator Hunters, yeah.
52:50
Predator Hunters.
52:51
I prefer the word nonce personally, but yeah, it was fucking, it was mad.
52:57
They don't get nonce.
52:58
Yeah, no, no, they don't get nonce.
53:00
But it's weird because it's only when I talk about it, I realize how fucking insane it all is that I did it.
53:08
Like with fucking my running around doing, seeing, watching pedophile hunters, like that's fucking stupid, isn't it?
53:14
Like I was there.
53:16
And they're catching pedos.
53:17
Like how fucking mad that is.
53:19
But I just, I don't know.
53:19
I just kind of, at the time, I don't think about it.
53:22
Yeah, you're in the zone.
53:23
Yeah, I'm in the zone.
53:23
I went to a white power music festival.
53:25
As fucking stupid as that.
53:28
Even recently, I'd filmed at the Portland ice facility protest.
53:34
And they were like throwing tear gas and pepper balls.
53:37
It's only when I got back to the hotel, I was like, what the fuck am I doing?
53:39
Yeah.
53:40
this madness but yeah i mean i remember you saying uh on joe marla that like when you make when you made those documentaries and looking back on them because like you say you're you're talking and doing and uh filming and dealing with some very extreme groups that are like neo-nazis and the black israelites in new york and all these guys and you know and like but the stuff that really who are saying some of the thing is is you know is
54:02
abominable yeah yeah but then like the stuff that you said i remember you saying the stuff that really stuck with you emotionally was actually the saddest stuff it was the more poignant stuff of their stories and i'm wondering what i was well no it wasn't their stories it was like i did one filming day at the calais um i was at the calais jungles you know where they had the refugee sort of pop-up refugee camp i was there the day burned down
54:28
Jesus.
54:29
Yeah.
54:29
So I was there the day it burned down.
54:31
And a lot of the tents had these big gas, like gas cans.
54:39
And you could feel the floor shake where they were exploding.
54:42
And, yeah, just watching it all burn down, really.
54:46
And the police are there and they're bulldozing it.
54:49
And sort of like just, you know, people with kids.
54:53
And it was sad, man.
54:54
You know, it's a real sad thing.
54:56
thing and to sort of see uh humanity like that you know to see the human race in that condition you know it's it's horrible stuff you know um yeah yeah yeah yeah i was definitely um that was definitely a thing that stuck with me you know
55:18
just see people like that and living like that and so you know horrible conditions man you know fucking dead rats everywhere and fucking you know like just mud with tents and you know it's just rough man people living rough and I remember I sat down with these uh I think it was Sudanese guys
55:38
And think about in their culture, they, you know, they want to give you something.
55:42
The guy had nothing.
55:44
Like he had fucking nothing.
55:45
You know, all he's got is a plastic bag of his life possessions and he's eating an apple.
55:50
And he's struggling to give me something.
55:51
And he tries to give me his apple he's eating.
55:54
Do you know what I mean?
55:55
Have this.
55:56
It's a half-eaten apple.
55:57
But it's all he has.
55:59
Take my heart.
55:59
Take all the only apple I have.
56:01
You know what I mean?
56:02
It's stuff like that, man.
56:03
Then you can fuck me, man.
56:04
It's just, yeah.
56:04
Yeah.
56:05
Yeah.
56:06
So that was definitely something.
56:08
When I was watching back some of your docs, I remember there was a quote from a, are you familiar with Werner Herzog?
56:14
Filmmaker?
56:14
Werner Herzog, he does a lot of documentaries.
56:16
He did like Grizzly Man.
56:17
Okay.
56:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:19
He's a really great, like, gentleman.
56:20
I know Grizzly Man and stuff, yeah.
56:22
What a great film.
56:23
Great film.
56:24
I fucking love Grizzly, man.
56:25
I love that film.
56:26
So funny.
56:26
Yeah, it's just like hilarious.
56:28
Yeah.
56:28
It's like hilarious and it's just like, you know, and it's sort of the underlying thing about him and, you know, it's so fucking funny.
56:35
And he's just, he's trying to fucking hang out with bears, the mad cunt.
56:40
So good.
56:41
And he's had the pieces to cameras.
56:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:44
And it is just a film about a guy slowly going quietly mad.
56:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:48
Out and back beyond.
56:50
But I remember Herzog saying, it's funny, he was actually talking about WrestleMania of all things, but he was talking about how it's important to not avert your eyes.
56:59
He was talking about WrestleMania, I guess, in a kind of like, I don't know if he was talking, he wasn't talking about it in a pejorative way, but the idea of it's like you don't avert your eyes to what we perceive as kind of like,
57:06
stuff that is base stuff that's like less lesser or junk or i guess like that we don't that we that is abhorrent you know you don't avert your eyes to it because it's what's coming at us it's like this is what's coming at us and we need to we need to look it in the eye yeah and and try and at least understand it if not try and reckon with it i mean i was wondering do you is that something that you think is important that like we don't avert our eyes these like some of the people you've documented because i think one of the main reasons and i could be wrong because i've
57:37
It's actually not that many.
57:38
I think people that have seen it don't feel as much that way.
57:42
But some of the criticisms I'd get is why are you giving these people a platform?
57:48
It exists.
57:48
Do you know what I mean?
57:50
It exists.
57:51
Like I did some filming with...
57:55
Did you hear about that story where it was like three people and they were living in the forest in Scotland and they were like a cult?
58:05
And he said he's basically the king of Scotland.
58:07
No, I didn't even see it.
58:09
So it was three people in this cult.
58:11
and they lived in this forest and he said basically he's the original Scottish and he's like a guy from Ghana and he goes, I'm the original Scottish man and this is my wife and this is my concubine.
58:24
It was fucking mental.
58:25
Yeah.
58:25
And he thinks he's a prophet from God and all that.
58:28
So I went and filmed with him.
58:29
Mm-hmm.
58:30
I'd got a camera guy and I shot up there and filmed with him.
58:33
And I put out the clips and people were like, why would you film with these people?
58:37
You know, they're fucking up the thing and the thing is, is they exist.
58:41
Mm-hmm.
58:41
And I think, you know, some people want to just go, oh no, if we don't look at it, it goes away, but it doesn't.
58:47
We've seen it now with the situation we're in.
58:50
It's been going on for 10, 15 years, Baba.
58:53
You know what I'm saying?
58:54
And this is where we are now, you know.
58:57
And I don't think, you know, I think we've buried our head in the sand and sort of closed our eyes tight.
59:04
It's sort of like, you know, when you're a kid and there's like, you think there's a monster in the room,
59:10
you close your eyes and you hope that when you open it it's going to be gone and it's not it's not i think we've done that for bare time and i think it's i don't think it works i think sometimes we have to face these things head on and we have to question it and understand it and you know and debate with it and you know argue with it and fight against it and fight with it and what the fuck is it you know i mean yeah yeah um yeah so and confront those ideas head on sometimes
59:35
And on that same front, there's some mad cunts who just need to be ignored as well.
59:40
You know what I'm saying?
59:41
Like some people do thrive on just that we keep acknowledging them.
59:44
Yes, yes.
59:45
That is true too.
59:46
Like I'm aware of that.
59:48
And I try to make a decision of which side is it.
59:52
Is it something we need to see or is it something that some mad bastard who needs that we, if we forgot about him, he would go away.
59:59
Yeah.
1:00:00
Do you know what I'm saying?
1:00:01
So it's both.
1:00:02
And judging that.
1:00:02
Yeah, yeah, it's judging that.
1:00:03
And it's hard.
1:00:04
And I've probably got it wrong sometimes.
1:00:06
You know, I've probably got it wrong sometimes.
1:00:08
And, you know, it's never done intentionally.
1:00:12
You know, it's just done to try and not do that.
1:00:15
For sure.
1:00:16
And why do you think people, why do you think we like screw up our eyes and don't want to look?
1:00:20
Do you think it's just too much information?
1:00:22
Like with, I guess now with the internet and like the news, so much information is coming at us.
1:00:26
Do you think people, oh, we don't want to, it's too much.
1:00:28
Do you think that's an influence or do you think it's something else?
1:00:30
I think, I think,
1:00:31
I think partly I think it's that it's it's there's so much shit now and the fucking you know it's just so much and especially now with the news you can get news you can see the videos of it here and it's like live and it's just this has happened and this has been bombed and this is people dying here and there's fucking war here and and I think we get overwhelmed and I think majority of people man it's like you wake up at fucking seven and
1:01:02
You go to work, you finish at six, you come home, you get home at seven.
1:01:06
You know what I mean?
1:01:08
You have your dinner.
1:01:09
You know, it's nine o'clock.
1:01:11
You just want to watch some telly and you want to go to bed and the only time you get is the weekend and then to be bombarded with... You know what I mean?
1:01:17
Like, I think it's some people, you know, some people it's like, you know, your fucking rent's high, your mortgage is high, your food's expensive.
1:01:25
You know, the last thing you want to do is then hear some mad shit.
1:01:29
Do you know what I'm saying?
1:01:31
I get that.
1:01:31
Totally.
1:01:32
My bandwidth can't extend.
1:01:33
That's it.
1:01:33
You know, I'm a fucking, I'm a comic man.
1:01:35
You know, like I have a lot of time to think and to do, you know, to see and, you know, and not everyone's got that luxury.
1:01:43
No, I accept that.
1:01:44
You know, some people just want to just fucking watch, enjoy and watch Friends.
1:01:50
Do you know what I mean?
1:01:51
And I get it.
1:01:52
I get why.
1:01:53
I was a big bang for you.
1:01:54
I just want to turn off.
1:01:55
I don't want to.
1:01:55
Yeah, switch off.
1:01:56
Yeah, they don't want to hear it all the time.
1:01:59
I get it.
1:01:59
I think, you know, I don't know if it's always good, but I get it.
1:02:06
How do you switch off when you need to switch off?
1:02:08
I don't switch off.
1:02:09
Yeah?
1:02:10
No, I'm on 24-7.
1:02:11
Yeah?
1:02:12
Yeah, it's not good.
1:02:13
I don't really switch off, man.
1:02:16
No?
1:02:16
You don't stick on a bit of friends?
1:02:19
Nah, man.
1:02:19
Sometimes I play Call of Duty.
1:02:21
Oh, nice.
1:02:21
Me and a couple of my friends, we put on their headsets.
1:02:25
We play Call of Duty.
1:02:27
Yeah.
1:02:27
So I do that.
1:02:29
I do that.
1:02:29
But I don't... No, I think a lot, man.
1:02:33
I travel a lot.
1:02:35
And I travel a lot.
1:02:35
And I travel by myself a lot.
1:02:37
So there's a lot of thinking and a lot of, you know... And I think thinking, it can be stressful.
1:02:44
to constantly be on and constantly thinking and constantly, you know, not really switching off and, you know, and it fucks up your sleep and, you know, but at the same time, it's kind of like, you know, it's a blessing to be able to have time to do that, you know?
1:02:57
So it's good and bad.
1:02:59
So you've got coming up in terms of like what you've got coming up next, like that we can look forward to, like you've got, so you've got more docs.
1:03:04
Yeah.
1:03:05
I self-produced some myself.
1:03:06
Yeah.
1:03:07
I guess I could say, I mean, I haven't said it anywhere yet, but I did one about a guy who married AI.
1:03:15
Oh, really?
1:03:15
Yeah, so I hung out with him for a couple of days.
1:03:17
That was interesting.
1:03:19
It was really interesting.
1:03:19
And it was different because it's like, as much as I love talking to, you know, I love talking to, but as much as I think I can talk to those people who are in the far right or anti-abortionists, you know, all these kind of fringe occults or pedo hunters, yeah.
1:03:36
It was really good talking to a guy where he's not done anything wrong in terms of evil or he doesn't have any evil ideas.
1:03:45
He just does a thing that I don't quite understand.
1:03:48
Do you know what I mean?
1:03:49
Yeah.
1:03:50
And he sort of does this thing and it's not harming anyone.
1:03:52
This is him.
1:03:53
It's his business.
1:03:54
And it was interesting.
1:03:55
It was good to kind of be in that world and sort of.
1:04:00
ask questions but not i have to confront him about anything it's not like i have to go yeah but this is it's not it's none of that it's just he does this thing that i don't quite understand you know and it's not my cup of tea you know i mean and it was yeah i really enjoyed that you know and sort of understanding why he does it and you know what is the cause of it what's the reasoning
1:04:21
That was good.
1:04:22
So I got that one.
1:04:24
I got another one where it was sort of more classical.
1:04:27
Met a guy who sort of like a real manga enthusiast.
1:04:31
Manga?
1:04:32
Maga.
1:04:32
Maga, sorry.
1:04:34
I was just interviewing myself.
1:04:35
I like manga.
1:04:36
Just both of us going like, yeah, no, it's pretty good, isn't it?
1:04:40
That new Berserk is all right, actually.
1:04:42
Fuck it, that would be the worst fucking film ever.
1:04:45
Yeah, so I did that one.
1:04:48
That's coming out.
1:04:49
Yeah, so I've got a couple.
1:04:51
I'm going to do that one, that cult I met in Scotland.
1:04:54
I never put it out.
1:04:55
And I made it a year ago and I never put it out, but I'm going to put it together.
1:04:59
I'll make that.
1:05:00
So I've got about...
1:05:03
three four films that are in the process of being edited ready to that are gonna go out and yeah i'm just filming more it's constantly sort of works i'm working on two other films right now and um yeah yeah so i've got that i'm gonna be doing that a lot i've got my podcast drive time show with elliot still it's really good if anyone's oh thank you that's very kind of you um yes we've got that that's just more of like a comedy kind of
1:05:28
You know, he's one of my best friends and I love him, but I don't like him.
1:05:33
That's cool.
1:05:34
And yeah, man, there's little projects here and there.
1:05:36
I've got some film, some stuff, you know, that goes on telly and stuff.
1:05:39
But yeah, bits and pieces, man.
1:05:41
Any plans to get back on the road, do some more?
1:05:44
Yeah, I'm going on tour next year.
1:05:45
nice yeah I'm going to run a tour right now doing a tour next year doing some scripted stuff which is cool so hopefully we get that made doing some acting stuff which is cool yeah so I'm working you know just trying to stay busy brother you know the bills don't stop coming so you've got to fucking stay busy 100% yeah
1:06:04
fantastic well hey this has been a real pleasure just you know sitting here and chatting to you you know i've really enjoyed hearing about your process and about the uh no matter how quote-unquote country it's uh i think it's been great oh thank you both i appreciate it man this been a really fun podcast thanks man i love it you look like a guy who has a film podcast do you know i mean though yeah like it's not it's not off brand it's proper like if i saw anyway if i saw you street i go i bet he's got a film podcast that guy
1:06:31
What's your favourite film?
1:06:32
I want to ask a film nerd, what's your favourite film?
1:06:34
Oh, so film buff, I shouldn't say film nerd.
1:06:36
Do you want the kind of like just the honest answer?
1:06:38
Yeah, honest answer.
1:06:39
Honest answer, okay.
1:06:40
Well, no embarrassment.
1:06:42
I mean, favourite film of mine is The Breakfast Club.
1:06:45
Okay, yeah.
1:06:46
Great film.
1:06:46
Great film.
1:06:47
I mean, some people kind of look down on it a bit these days.
1:06:48
But there's certain films where it is just, in terms of filmmaking, perfect.
1:06:57
Every act, every... Do you know what I mean?
1:07:00
No, it's just...
1:07:01
It does the bang, bang, bang.
1:07:03
Yeah.
1:07:03
Do you know what I mean?
1:07:04
And I say Breakfast Club is definitely one of those type of films.
1:07:06
Fucking great film.
1:07:07
Great film.
1:07:07
Love Breakfast Club.
1:07:08
Seeing that, like when I...
1:07:10
I saw it when I just left school.
1:07:12
Yeah.
1:07:12
And kind of, in some ways, what you were saying earlier about how when you sort of got out of school and it sounds like you maybe weren't quite sure immediately what you wanted to do.
1:07:18
That was totally me.
1:07:19
Like, I was living at home and I was just like...
1:07:21
I was kind of just a bit adrift.
1:07:22
And I remember seeing that film and being like, oh, I get it.
1:07:25
I get this...
1:07:26
these people I understand that, you know, it spoke to me about what I just left school.
1:07:30
That was what really appealed to me about it.
1:07:32
Anxiety of it all and the sort of the fear of the unknown.
1:07:35
Teenage hanks.
1:07:36
Yeah.
1:07:37
Yeah.
1:07:37
All of that.
1:07:37
And then, and then growing up and all that, but then that, then that led me into getting into movies proper.
1:07:42
Yeah.
1:07:43
I hear you.
1:07:43
Great man.
1:07:44
Yeah.
1:07:44
Do you, do you have a film like that or like a encounter with something like that, that made you, that kind of spoke to you?
1:07:50
Yeah, I do.
1:07:53
And it's weird.
1:07:54
And it, it's, it's sort of,
1:07:56
There's so many...
1:07:57
I don't know if I should say it.
1:08:02
Obviously, I know with what's happened, but American Beauty, obviously, I know with the...
1:08:09
I haven't watched it in ages since I haven't watched it, but I remember I was about 15, and I was fucking high off my...
1:08:16
I was smoking so much weed, and I watched it.
1:08:18
I remember thinking it was...
1:08:21
that bag floating beautiful.
1:08:22
Do you know what I mean though?
1:08:23
But I remember being high and, and what I, what I got from that film.
1:08:27
And again, I watched it sober and I was like, it's not that good.
1:08:29
But what I got from it was being about 15 watching it and sort of, I kind of resonated with the idea of this guy has this life that's comfortable and he just wakes up one morning and goes, I'm miserable.
1:08:45
Hmm.
1:08:45
Do you know what I mean?
1:08:48
And I hate it.
1:08:48
And I just want a different life.
1:08:50
And I just want to feel free and not feel restricted by this idea of corporate life or whatever it is.
1:08:57
Do you know what I'm saying?
1:08:59
Even though I was 15 and I didn't have a fucking...
1:09:02
I wasn't working a corporate job or nothing.
1:09:04
But I don't know whether it just resonated with me or just this kind of fear of just...
1:09:09
being uh you know uh you know blinking and i'm you know i'm 50 with a wife i feel like i don't love anymore and kids who hate me do you know how'd i get here yeah you know so yeah so it's that that that was probably one of those films um that did that for me at that age
1:09:30
It's such a spiky film, that film.
1:09:32
I mean, I actually saw that quite late.
1:09:33
I saw that in lockdown.
1:09:35
I didn't watch it.
1:09:36
I was about 26 or something.
1:09:38
And it's so spiky and funny, but also it has that real undercurrent of emotion, like all the stuff with the back.
1:09:44
Yeah.
1:09:45
And the other stuff too.
1:09:46
It has such an interesting tonal dexterity to it.
1:09:49
But like, it's really spiky and really funny and black, Blackley comic and then really emotional.
1:09:55
Yeah.
1:09:56
Really sad.
1:09:57
And yeah.
1:09:57
No.
1:09:58
Yeah.
1:09:58
That was one of them films.
1:10:00
uh yeah but my one of my favorite films i love i love warriors yeah oh yeah the wait the wait the warriors yeah yeah yeah not warrior the tom hardy no no no that's a good film but i would say my favorite film but i worry is the warriors did you ever play the warriors ps2 fuck yeah man man man it's probably crazy i lift off that game do the battle royale and that throw man off the roof but i love that game
1:10:23
That's one of them games.
1:10:24
Rockstar, man.
1:10:24
That was one of them games I wish they made more of.
1:10:26
Anyway, sorry.
1:10:28
I know you want to wrap it up.
1:10:29
All right, brother.
1:10:29
I want to hear more about your favorite games.
1:10:32
That's all of the podcast.
1:10:35
Cool.
1:10:35
For sure.
1:10:35
Well, no, thanks so much for coming on the show.
1:10:37
Thanks for having me.
1:10:38
Appreciate it.
1:10:39
Our pleasure.