Latest / The Insurance Growth Lab / How Brokers Can Become True Risk Advisors with Aclaimant President David Wald
Transcript
- David [0:00:00]: The brokers who are making the biggest impacts are thinking about how they can provide a complete coverage solution where they can not only help to place the insurance that make sure that everything else that touches that spend item, the tactically and strategically is an area where they're able to add value to their customers. Callan [0:00:19]: Welcome to The Insurance Growth Lab, who we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the assurance industry. Callan [0:00:27]: I'm Callan Harrington founder of Flashgrowth and in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers and shirt tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale a channel or solve a specific growth challenge. Callan [0:00:44]: It's no fluff just tactical insights you can apply in your own company. Callan [0:00:48]: David, we made it happen, which I'm excited about. Callan [0:00:56]: To kick this off, where did the idea for Aclaimant come from? David [0:01:01]: You're starting with the good questions here, Calvin. David [0:01:03]: So as much as most people don't, believe company start this way. David [0:01:07]: It's actually started was an idea that my father Had before he was my father love. David [0:01:14]: So if you can imagine, okay. Callan [0:01:15]: Can't wait. David [0:01:16]: Rewind to a different time, pre Covid my now wife's, but then girlfriend's dad, who we did just reason started dating. David [0:01:22]: Approached me one day, I was a Vc at the time. David [0:01:25]: I was with the Light bank fun in Chicago. David [0:01:27]: And says to me, hey. David [0:01:29]: You're a tech guy. David [0:01:30]: Right. David [0:01:30]: And course to my, like, immediately, like, no Like, what's coming at next is, like, you should build me an app. David [0:01:35]: You know I like, no. David [0:01:37]: No sir. David [0:01:38]: No, sir. David [0:01:39]: I should not. David [0:01:40]: About, like, like, my father law is, like, just one of the best guys I've ever met. David [0:01:45]: But He also is a thirty five year insurance salesman. David [0:01:47]: He plays hockey three days a week, and he's like, almost seventy at this point in time. Callan [0:01:51]: Yeah. David [0:01:52]: Because she might adjust turned seventy, which makes me a bad son unlock. Callan [0:01:54]: And he's still like hockey. David [0:01:56]: Still plays hockey three days a week with thirty year olds. David [0:01:58]: Yeah. David [0:01:58]: He's one of those guys. David [0:01:59]: That up, like, downtown Detroit, like, tough nails. David [0:02:02]: Oh, love that. David [0:02:03]: Right? David [0:02:03]: Like, it's awesome. David [0:02:04]: But, like, he doesn't hear the word no. David [0:02:06]: It's just not in his vocabulary. David [0:02:07]: So. David [0:02:08]: As you can imagine, he basically gives me the story of, like, hey. David [0:02:12]: Here's the deal. David [0:02:13]: I have a captive and the work comp program for staffing first. David [0:02:16]: Just having issues where like, no one knows how to file a claim and nobody knows what to something goes wrong. David [0:02:21]: She's build that. David [0:02:22]: And I was like, still like, lesser sir. Callan [0:02:25]: Well, you kinda thinking, like, This is a good idea. Callan [0:02:27]: Actually, this is a good idea. Callan [0:02:29]: I'm not gonna do it. Callan [0:02:30]: But I'm starting to like what you're talking about. David [0:02:33]: So at the time, like, I was in vc, the world of insurance was still completely a black box me. David [0:02:38]: I have no idea So the time, I didn't to really understand. David [0:02:40]: And so in his impulsive fashion, which again, I like, he without him this never would've have started. David [0:02:45]: Comes back and says, hey. David [0:02:46]: I have three quotes from three different development firms in Chicago to go ahead and build this and of course, that firms Chicago, big firms big dollars, just the price tags. David [0:02:54]: And I'm like, darn it I can't in good faith. David [0:02:56]: Have him, like, go and do this because, you know, it's gonna go. David [0:03:00]: They're gonna charge us an Mvp is gonna anymore. David [0:03:02]: And like come back and be like, why didn't you do this? David [0:03:04]: And then I'm out of luck. David [0:03:05]: So I'm like, okay. David [0:03:06]: Whatever. David [0:03:06]: Like, we'll figure it out. David [0:03:08]: So as I said, okay. David [0:03:09]: I know of phenomenal technologist technologists who can build this probably for you in about ninety days. David [0:03:14]: Keep mind This is two thousand and, I think, like, fourteen or fifteen this point. David [0:03:18]: Yeah. David [0:03:18]: It's now twenty twenty six and we're still going. David [0:03:21]: So... David [0:03:21]: Ninety days. David [0:03:22]: That was off. David [0:03:23]: I was off a little bit. Callan [0:03:24]: Yeah. Callan [0:03:24]: Pretty close. David [0:03:26]: Pretty pretty close. David [0:03:26]: Right? David [0:03:26]: So long story short, we put together this app, it's a button on a phone that says reporter a claim. David [0:03:32]: And because he's been in the industry for so long, we kinda take this and get it in front of three different people. David [0:03:38]: We get in front of somebody who runs the fleet centers with the Navy, somebody who runs partnerships at Cna and somebody who runs risk management at Kelly Services, the global staffing firm. Callan [0:03:48]: Just happens to be the exact people that should be need. David [0:03:53]: Right? David [0:03:53]: And we're, like, ninety days in nights and weekends. David [0:03:56]: Try to figure this out. David [0:03:57]: And all of a sudden, and again, I'm a Vc. David [0:04:00]: I know everything. David [0:04:00]: Right? David [0:04:01]: I'm so smart. David [0:04:02]: I see tech this and that automation here. David [0:04:04]: I'm like, this is whatever. David [0:04:05]: We show that to these people who are very talented that people bear surfing their space, and we go three for three. David [0:04:11]: The navy's like, let's go into procurement. David [0:04:13]: Cna is like, let's get into partnerships. David [0:04:15]: And the guys at Kelly Services is like hey, can we a pilot this. David [0:04:17]: This looks great. David [0:04:18]: And we're like, like, mind blown. David [0:04:20]: Like, what is this a real conversation. David [0:04:23]: So two of those three ended up becoming things over time, but that was where it came from. David [0:04:27]: And then just like every three or six months, we kinda kept getting pulled back on this path deeper and deeper, all of a sudden, we start to raise money a year later because we're seeing so much traction someone offers to buy the company in twenty fifteen and that falls through, but it pulls us further. David [0:04:42]: We get a seed round raise in twenty seventeen, and we look back and you're like, you couldn't draw the line of, like, come with an idea putting Mvp, these three people who we have no business talking to say, yes. David [0:04:53]: Next thing you know, someone tries to buy the company. David [0:04:55]: That me raise money over here. David [0:04:56]: And now we've a real business. David [0:04:58]: And so we kinda fell over backwards in the sideways, but it really all came back to just one conversation from somebody who knew this space inside now who was, like, banging on the doors is being, like, what? David [0:05:08]: And the rest of us being like, right? David [0:05:11]: And the rest history. Callan [0:05:13]: You know it's funny. Callan [0:05:13]: And we talked about this on your show a little bit, But I hear the... Callan [0:05:18]: You know, you saying, look, I was in Vc. Callan [0:05:21]: I knew all these things worked. Callan [0:05:23]: Like I knew know how this is gonna go. Callan [0:05:25]: And I've can always find it so funny. Callan [0:05:27]: It's like... Callan [0:05:27]: Because I felt similar. Callan [0:05:28]: I was like, I done a million startups before doing my own. Callan [0:05:31]: And everything that I thought I knew just went right out the window. Callan [0:05:37]: Did you find that to be the case for yourself? David [0:05:41]: Yes. David [0:05:41]: Sure answer. David [0:05:42]: Yes. David [0:05:43]: Long answer was So I had a pit stop, but I work with an awesome group who did tasty trade dough dot com in Chicago. David [0:05:49]: And it was their second go around this was first company for, I think, almost a billion dollars. David [0:05:54]: And they were, like, seasoned operations. David [0:05:56]: And so I got in the room with them. David [0:05:57]: And there's a buzz about it. David [0:05:59]: And there's, like, a level of, like, execution excellence that you're just, like, not used to in your Vc because Your Vc, you're trying to, like, powder match and, like, get things through committee. David [0:06:08]: Yeah. David [0:06:08]: And then trying to assist people who are doing the work. David [0:06:10]: When you're doing this, you're kinda there. David [0:06:12]: And then when I made the jump over to do the startup, all of a sudden, I found that there was this really weird thing where it's... David [0:06:18]: You, like, replay these conversations or people say like, hey, a, b and c are happening, and I'm doing D e and f, and you're like, oh, yeah. David [0:06:26]: But I I get what that means. David [0:06:28]: And then you're in the seat and you're like, oh my god. David [0:06:31]: I one hundred percent thought this was like a problem this big, but it's actually a problem this big. David [0:06:37]: And now I'm just, like, trying to figure out how to make it all the way through. David [0:06:40]: So it was you knew the lines that the picture was gonna be drawn in. David [0:06:45]: But when you get in, it's just like, whoa, That is not what I expected at all. Callan [0:06:52]: It's like, whatever you look back. Callan [0:06:53]: Oh, it did actually work out similar to this. Callan [0:06:56]: But then when you're in it, it just does not feel that way. Callan [0:07:00]: But, you know, you mentioned that this was years later. Callan [0:07:02]: You guys are now tracking billions of dollars of claims every year. Callan [0:07:05]: Thousands of companies are using Aclaimant every day. Callan [0:07:08]: And you've raised over thirty million dollars. Callan [0:07:11]: So things are working to say the least, what I wanna dive into today is, you know, we talked about this, you know and I offline, and I thought it was a really interesting subject because becoming a risk advisor is something that is getting talked about a lot more. Callan [0:07:31]: And a lot of people are saying, you know, you've gotta be an advisor. Callan [0:07:36]: You've gotta be an advisor or agents of brokers are probably would be surprised a little sick of hearing this. Callan [0:07:40]: That being said, I think that that comes from... Callan [0:07:44]: You don't hear a lot of what does that actually mean. Callan [0:07:47]: Mh. Callan [0:07:47]: And you guys have a pretty unique lens on this. Callan [0:07:50]: When you think of A broker as a risk adviser. Callan [0:07:56]: What does that mean to you? David [0:07:58]: I think in one of the most interesting transitions that we've kinda seen it kinda like, start to play out, probably when we first got started and then now become more and more of a thing, but Conceptually, we always talk about how, like, we wanna work with the teams who are really becoming extensions of their clients risk management department. David [0:08:17]: Being a risk adviser being ascension board. David [0:08:20]: But I think what it means is that especially in companies that either are big enough where they have to figure it out or small enough where they have the problem and don't the resource to figure it out or anywhere across that spectrum. David [0:08:33]: We're really starting to see a prevalence of there's the brokers who can, like, talk a good game and say, like, we do these things, and then the brokers who execute a good game, which is we recognize that our customers have these five or ten gaps they need to fill. David [0:08:49]: And we're gonna strategically work with them to provide expertise guidance and partnership to kind of work through these challenges. David [0:08:56]: Because as they recognize that if someone's gonna move over half million dollar program, million dollar program, ten million dollar program. David [0:09:03]: More, And these customers want to eventually move up the risk sophistication curve, then if I'm am gonna be the broker who gets trusted to be that partner. David [0:09:14]: If all I'm doing is finding you the best rates, I mean, a lot of people can find good rates. David [0:09:18]: And maybe you can find an extra point or two. David [0:09:20]: But at that level, these people are also thinking about things like deductibles, retention, my total cost of risk, putting technology in the field, capturing my data. David [0:09:31]: Eventually moving over into a captive or some other form here. David [0:09:35]: And so I think as people start to get more and more spend that's attributed to their insurance, and even things that are non ins insure risks, I think the brokers who are making the biggest impacts are thinking about how they can provide a complete coverage solution where they can not only help to place the insurance, but making sure that everything else that touches that spend item tactically and strategically is an area where they're able to add value to their customers. Callan [0:10:02]: And to just to clarify, we're talking middle market commercial and above essentially. David [0:10:07]: Yep. David [0:10:07]: Hundred percent. Callan [0:10:08]: Where do you think that premium thresholds starts. Callan [0:10:11]: You've brought up a good point. Callan [0:10:12]: Right? Callan [0:10:13]: Like, one... Callan [0:10:13]: When you go way up, you've got a team of people That are focused on this. Callan [0:10:18]: But what is that area where they don't have that, and not to say an agent or it's really a whole team within the agency. David [0:10:27]: Yeah. David [0:10:27]: Because here's why I think Callan [0:10:28]: this is so interesting. Callan [0:10:28]: Of why I'm trying to clarify is that where Ai is going to make a impact on this space. Callan [0:10:34]: One of the things it's always on my mind is what can you bring to the table that Ai probably can't do? Callan [0:10:42]: And can Ai get you a lot of the right answers? Callan [0:10:45]: Yes, but you gotta be an expert to know to ask the right questions, where... Callan [0:10:49]: So I think becoming this adviser will prevent you from losing account to somebody that is doing that. Callan [0:10:56]: And so where's a threshold? Callan [0:10:58]: Where does that start? David [0:11:00]: Yes. David [0:11:00]: So I think it kinda depends a little bit by vertical. David [0:11:04]: But I think we see it start to happen probably in the quarter million to half a million premiums a year is kinda where people start to make that kind of conscious decision of, like, okay. David [0:11:17]: We gotta do something here, and then it scales up from there. David [0:11:21]: It's like a three step process that we typically see companies go through. David [0:11:25]: It's like one, my business is doing well. David [0:11:28]: My premiums jump, and it was two fifty last year, and now it's four fifty this year, and I'm looking back and I'm like you know, My mod, if it's where comp, wasn't that great last year. David [0:11:39]: So even if my business is gonna double this year or Fifty percent, but my mods going up, all of a sudden, that spend goes from four hundred to five six seven eight, nine hundred a million. David [0:11:49]: And you can pass started down the line. David [0:11:50]: You're like, oh, no. David [0:11:51]: Like, what are we gonna do? David [0:11:53]: And so the what are we gonna do normally was, like, I need someone on my team who's gonna manage this. David [0:11:57]: I'm gonna hire my risk manager. David [0:11:58]: And then your risk manager who's worth their salt. David [0:12:00]: Is gonna go to their broker and be like, alright, guys, we have a program that's growing and it will continue to grow. David [0:12:07]: Your job is to make it grow more slowly than it has been growing. David [0:12:11]: So I think that's kind of the number at which all of a sudden people started to the math and they're like, I can afford the body. David [0:12:16]: And if I'm moving this was premium around, like, whoever wants to play ball with me, better bring something the table? David [0:12:22]: Because if not, I'm gonna find somebody who will. Callan [0:12:24]: Okay. Callan [0:12:24]: So what does a broker need to do? Callan [0:12:26]: Like, what does that actually look like? Callan [0:12:28]: So they wanna become a true risk advisor or... Callan [0:12:30]: What does that look like in practice? David [0:12:32]: Yeah. David [0:12:32]: So it's a great question because I think that there's people who say they are and people who actually are. Callan [0:12:38]: So Mh. David [0:12:39]: I think about this need and the people who do this really well as kind of maybe three parts when I can't try to package it up. David [0:12:47]: The first and most obvious one is expertise on their team that can help their customers work through challenges. David [0:12:55]: And normally, it's somebody who's been an Tb of to carrier been a broker by a customer, and, you know, policy holder and you can kinda, like, have all the lens, typically an risk manager or risk managers, adjusters, who can kinda sit with a customer who has questions and to kind of help them to field and know what to do. David [0:13:13]: And as they get bigger, they have specialists, you know have some who are, like, return to work specialists or litigation specialists or regional specialists or Gl specialists or kind of you name it. David [0:13:22]: They kinda have that person or that team or that pod of expertise that they can kind of provide and demons show and talk about, like, hey, We have these people. David [0:13:31]: You're talking with us. David [0:13:32]: We're gonna show you value in the process and gonna show you value across the way. David [0:13:35]: And again, this is in addition to all, like, the obvious, like, good broker relationships with carriers, good networks that you're a part of, kinda good distribution. David [0:13:44]: Again, I think for me, that's all table stakes. David [0:13:46]: The second thing that I think a lot of these guys are thinking about is a portfolio of solutions. David [0:13:53]: We kind fall early in that second bucket, which is to be really helpful to your partners to your policy holders. David [0:14:00]: Most people now are dealing with tele and a in a solution to go ahead and grab data and return to work network and a nurse triage company, and this and a that and this and to that. David [0:14:11]: And brokers don't provide these services, but the brokers who I think are thinking about this recognize that it's incumbent on them to help their customers understand like, who is good and who is not. David [0:14:23]: And what is the blend of things that would recommend for you as a manufacturer a logistics company or a restaurant group or a municipality because you gotta package up all this stuff to really make and implement the things that I'm saying. David [0:14:37]: So I say, like, hey, you gotta cut down your lag time. David [0:14:39]: It's, like, great. David [0:14:40]: How are we gonna do it? David [0:14:41]: You're like, okay. David [0:14:41]: We're doing tele for auto claims and we're doing, like, an inbound triage line that feeds into a system for your kind work comp claims is not from there. David [0:14:49]: And then I think the third piece here is it's more of an intangible, but it's kind of that is that partnership approach in that partnership mentality. David [0:15:00]: And so I think it's trying to see if you can dis fill out which of these brokers actually are the ones that aren't just trying to, you know, let, hit you up ninety days before renewal and really trying to say, like, okay, We're gonna work with you. David [0:15:14]: Here's what we're gonna be involved. David [0:15:15]: A bunch of them have, like, conferences when they kinda share thought leadership or ongoing engagement opportunities or someone on in your site once a month once a quarter or whatever it may be. David [0:15:24]: But, like, when you kinda start to do reference checks in the brokers, you can kinda it fill out, like, hey, who's here to sell something. David [0:15:31]: And by the way, business has to get sold how the world works. David [0:15:34]: But, like, Mh. David [0:15:34]: And there's the people who, like, sell something and kinda build a partnership that you can then actually get advantages and drive value from those first two items is kind of where we look at, like, what a true risk adviser when a true extension really it looks like. Callan [0:15:47]: A lot of things that I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it's essentially I mean, it's very similar to anybody that if you think about the people that have a niche and are really excel at that niche, Like it's one thing to be able to say, I work with ten manufacturing companies. Callan [0:16:07]: Mh. Callan [0:16:08]: But it's a lot different. Callan [0:16:09]: Or let's just... Callan [0:16:10]: Actually, let's just use for examples like, fifty manufacturing companies. Callan [0:16:14]: Yep. Callan [0:16:15]: That's great. Callan [0:16:15]: But for the ones that are truly dominating that niche, And I think this is what you're saying, But correct me if I'm wrong. Callan [0:16:21]: They are at the manufacturing conferences. Callan [0:16:24]: And so they know all of the vendors that specialize and then that they could recommend for areas that have to do with risk and the and areas that have to do without it. Callan [0:16:35]: Now some of that's on the relationship building. Callan [0:16:37]: But I'm hearing a lot of the same things. Callan [0:16:39]: They know this type of business inside and out And so they can manage to that risk, and they've got experts in the different areas that are critical to this type of business, and they know what's gonna happen before this company knows essentially what's going to happen and so they can proactively manage our risk better. Callan [0:16:59]: Is that right? Callan [0:17:00]: Or am I off on that? David [0:17:02]: No. David [0:17:02]: I mean, I think you kinda summarize it very well. David [0:17:04]: It's kinda like whenever you go... David [0:17:06]: It's like, when you're like, looking for a new house. David [0:17:08]: Right? David [0:17:09]: Mh. David [0:17:09]: The difference a good realtor and a bad realtor. David [0:17:11]: Right? David [0:17:12]: A good realtor is gonna help to understand the things that you need knows that if you're growing from a couple to a family or you're a single person looking to buy your first home or you're trying to downsize or whatever it is. David [0:17:23]: They're like, great. David [0:17:23]: Most people who are like you wanna move in these couple things. David [0:17:27]: Depending upon your preferences about if you like to go out. David [0:17:30]: If you like restaurants. David [0:17:31]: If you like shopping. David [0:17:32]: If you like green grass. David [0:17:33]: Like, here's what I'd also recommend, let me understand other things you know, I can kinda help you to figure out the where the watch out and they must haves, It's very similar in this space as well. David [0:17:42]: Where like, the people who understand their clients who have seen the story enough to be able to provide the guidance, but not be over bearing and to be a true partner. David [0:17:52]: That's it. David [0:17:53]: You kinda nailed it. Callan [0:17:54]: Do you have to have an niche focus on that to be successful? Callan [0:17:56]: If you're of a certain size, like, Aa can do this? Callan [0:18:00]: I mean, that's why they're largely organized, to have departments for healthcare care in manufacturing. Callan [0:18:05]: And then in the weeds, like, within those factions they'll have niches within niches. David [0:18:10]: Mh. Callan [0:18:10]: But, like, if you're a smaller agency that happens to have sold a couple... Callan [0:18:13]: I'll just... Callan [0:18:14]: Actually, let's use ambulances. Callan [0:18:16]: Ambulances is an interesting one because they're everywhere, they're actually not gigantic businesses, but they command pretty significant premiums? David [0:18:23]: Yep. Callan [0:18:23]: Would you recommend that they focus on a niche first and then expand or does that not matter? Callan [0:18:28]: If you could focus on one size of business, you can probably pull this off. David [0:18:32]: Gigantic Yeah. David [0:18:33]: So with the caveat being that I don't run an agency. David [0:18:36]: And so it's all all here... David [0:18:37]: I, I went I'm about to share. David [0:18:39]: And, by the way, we actually, some of our first customers were ambulatory companies. Callan [0:18:42]: Oh, interesting. David [0:18:43]: Yeah. David [0:18:43]: Interesting interesting works, but you're right. David [0:18:45]: Small kinda relatively small, high volume kinda crazy stuff happens too when those org. David [0:18:50]: But Yeah. David [0:18:51]: So I think what we've seen is the following. David [0:18:53]: They generally need to have some kind of, specialization or density, which allows them to be competitive. David [0:19:02]: And so the, like, two things that I see with an optional third is either you have some kind of geographic density, you're the best for companies in New York City or companies in a certain, York City or you're the best at a vertical housing or manufacturing logistics kinda you call it. David [0:19:22]: But we kinda find that order to really be successful. David [0:19:25]: I'm at least, and this is just anecdotally that most of these firms we're working with have some kind of thing that they can kind of find a way to wedge in and win. David [0:19:35]: Now, as you get to companies that are in these bigger middle market spaces versus trying to do, a thousand mainstream street businesses, you're trying to do fifty or seventy kind of a more of these beef your customers, you can get a little bit more distribution. David [0:19:51]: But if you go to the markets, like you probably have to have the market relationships to fill work comp and staffing or to fill auto and logistics or to fill, you know, Gl and construction, whatever it may be. David [0:20:03]: And we kinda find that, like, as these companies grow and as they're winning, if they're very focused, they can kinda take their wins double down to what's working and find more like it. David [0:20:12]: So it might be anecdotally that the companies that are winning are finding where they win and doubling down to build density where it might be that They've won because they have specialization in certain space, but mostly, I don't see too many that are just, like, generic for everything especially kind of small size because you have so many specialists that are so much bigger than able to kinda blanket it out across kinda of like the Us in the world. Callan [0:20:36]: I tend to agree, and that's largely what I see as well within this space. Callan [0:20:40]: Now it is interesting. Callan [0:20:41]: Right? Callan [0:20:41]: Because it's like, one of the things I could ask, I asked quite a bit is, you know, if they're starting out, what would you mention? Callan [0:20:50]: And there's a lot of interesting areas. Callan [0:20:52]: Like, I tend to like those areas and what I had always looked at was, for example, a few years ago. Callan [0:20:58]: The cyber insurance market was hardening, and I had a tech background. Callan [0:21:02]: So that was an area I was super interested in in the middle market space. Callan [0:21:05]: Big premiums, and it's an area a lot of people don't wanna touch. Callan [0:21:08]: I think those areas are are really interesting. Callan [0:21:10]: But at the end of the day, it's probably similar... Callan [0:21:12]: I think you said something similar to this. Callan [0:21:14]: You know, you just might have a friend that you grew up with or went to college with that happens to be the Ceo of some random company and you get in. Callan [0:21:24]: Well, you got in. Callan [0:21:26]: And so now do whatever you need to do to support that account, and then go try to find the next one of those. Callan [0:21:32]: Easier said than dumb with those niches I find tend to be organic. Callan [0:21:35]: Have you seen that? Callan [0:21:36]: What have you seen out the market? David [0:21:38]: Yeah. David [0:21:38]: No. David [0:21:38]: I mean, very similar even for Aclaimant. David [0:21:40]: Right? David [0:21:40]: I think for us when you start off, it's the start up journey doesn't a matter if you're, I share your broker, Tpa, whatever. David [0:21:46]: A lot of it is, like, where do you get your first w? David [0:21:49]: And it's either a relationship or it's expertise based, and then you end up with two or three customers, and you have to go out and market and you're like, well. David [0:21:57]: What do you know? David [0:21:59]: We are crushing right now, we went a hundred percent of construction firms under a hundred million of revenue in Lower Manhattan, so amazing because we are a specialists in this space, and then it itself fulfill. David [0:22:12]: I think that's it. David [0:22:13]: Right. David [0:22:13]: I it's a very competitive space. David [0:22:15]: A lot of people putting a lot of money to brokerage just right now. David [0:22:17]: A lot of people are trying to sell brokerage services and kinda always trying to win accounts. David [0:22:22]: So I think the question always comes down to, you know, where do you have an advantage and an information advantage and asymmetric relationship advantage, just kind of a propensity to win. David [0:22:32]: And go go and do it. David [0:22:35]: And don't domain things harder yourself and they have to be, I think the rule of thumb is always, like, you know, play it straight, but figure out where you can do something that others cannot and go do that thing. Callan [0:22:46]: I think that isn't gonna sound like an obvious statement. Callan [0:22:49]: But that asymmetric relationship advantage. Callan [0:22:53]: So that when you whether it's a friendship or your experience, whatever that might be. Callan [0:23:00]: They don't sell those short. Callan [0:23:02]: I think what I see a lot of people do is they're almost afraid to leverage those relationships. Callan [0:23:09]: I know I've certainly been like this with, like, like, personal friends, where I'm like, oh, I don't wanna feel like I'm leveraging that relationship. Callan [0:23:16]: When you're start a business and you're really trying to grow. Callan [0:23:18]: It's like, You gotta use everything on it that's on the table. Callan [0:23:22]: I'd be curious if you feel the same way. David [0:23:24]: Yeah. David [0:23:24]: Hundred hundred thousand percent. David [0:23:26]: And I went do the same thing. David [0:23:28]: When we first started to claim, I had this. David [0:23:30]: And again, I like, lube back in my, you know, myself and my, like, my late twenties twenty thursday is a land just like. David [0:23:34]: Smack me and be like, what are you doing? David [0:23:36]: But I think a lot of people who take the entrepreneurship jump. David [0:23:40]: Have this men mentality. David [0:23:42]: Like, I'm gonna do it on my own. David [0:23:43]: I don't want any help. David [0:23:45]: Like, I'm gonna make it and it's gonna be awesome because I didn't it. David [0:23:48]: And then you get going for a while, and I went through this and you're like, everybody is supported by their friends and their family and their networks and their acquaintances. David [0:23:57]: And that's how we all make it... David [0:23:59]: Like, everybody needs a break somewhere. Callan [0:24:02]: Yeah. David [0:24:02]: Then you go and do it and you realize that, like, you're an idiot. David [0:24:05]: But for the opposite reason you thought, you're an idiot because your friends not only don't feel en inc by your ask, but actually, if they're really your friends what to help. David [0:24:17]: Yeah. David [0:24:18]: They're excited to help. David [0:24:19]: And they're like, oh my god. David [0:24:20]: My girlfriend's, younger brother works at locked in, like, you should meet them. David [0:24:24]: Amazing. David [0:24:25]: Like, you'll never guess nut. David [0:24:26]: My my neighbor runs risk manager for an energy company. David [0:24:29]: What you guys should have a conversation over for beers from tomorrow night. David [0:24:32]: Like, okay. David [0:24:33]: So cool. Callan [0:24:34]: Yeah. David [0:24:35]: And then you get going for a while and you kinda find yourself then going, like, for us. David [0:24:39]: Like, it's... David [0:24:39]: I can't think of how many, like, you could flyer phone calls and make introductions that, like, don't benefit you at all, but it's just, like, somebody helped you, so you helped somebody else. David [0:24:47]: That's how the whole thing works. Callan [0:24:48]: We know it's interesting too on that is what I found because, like, you know, you said that your father not grew up in Detroit. Callan [0:24:54]: I grew up in Toledo. Callan [0:24:55]: So, like, I didn't have when I started in church, I have no warm market, and it was top. Callan [0:25:00]: That was super tough. Callan [0:25:01]: And it was the financial downturn, which it Toledo tied to the hip to Detroit. Callan [0:25:05]: And so, like, it was brutal. Callan [0:25:07]: Now that being said, I think one of the most interesting things is If you don't have the network now, because I'm sure those people are listening to this was like well, I don't have any of that. Callan [0:25:15]: That doesn't mean you won't have it. Callan [0:25:18]: Meaning, like, maintain those relationships. Callan [0:25:20]: Don't burn any of those bridges, you'd be shocked. Callan [0:25:23]: Maybe it's... Callan [0:25:23]: One year, maybe it's five years, maybe it's ten years down the road. Callan [0:25:27]: You'd be shocked to how many of those come back around. Callan [0:25:31]: And to your point, they tend to wanna help. Callan [0:25:34]: I think the moral of the story is, if you've got those, don't be afraid to use them. Callan [0:25:39]: Don't be afraid to tap into them. Callan [0:25:40]: You could be honest where things are at with your business, but you be shocked how much people just... Callan [0:25:45]: Honestly wanna work with somebody they trust more than anything else. David [0:25:48]: Yeah. David [0:25:48]: And I think even in top of that, I think you'd be amazed of how many people are going through the exact same thing in some capacity. David [0:25:55]: Like, Mh. David [0:25:55]: It's always funny I everyone I wants to be out there and beat their chest and say, up into the right. David [0:25:59]: Two hundred percent. David [0:26:00]: Year over year growth, free cash flow generating. David [0:26:02]: It's amazing and everyone... David [0:26:04]: And I mean, I have so many talks with friends It's like, everybody's always dealing with the same general set of struggles. David [0:26:10]: It's just different scales. Callan [0:26:11]: Yep. Callan [0:26:11]: To David [0:26:12]: your other point on the network front, I think it's always amazing that people, like, nobody unless you grow up in, like, an absolute, like, destination place everybody has the start of the network through everything they've ever done. David [0:26:25]: Mh. David [0:26:25]: And I think a lot of all it takes is, you know, buy someone a cup of coffee, Buy someone breakfast. David [0:26:31]: Buy someone lunch. David [0:26:32]: I mean, like, of the things that we try to do with our team right now is Know, even just have try to get two to three conversations going a week with people. David [0:26:39]: Even just to catch up, to see what's happening with their life. David [0:26:41]: Share what we're doing. David [0:26:41]: Get some feedback. David [0:26:42]: A lot of people just wanna have a chance to connect and, like, learn about stuff and share notes and whether it's from someone in the similar space, similar of a similar problem or just juggling networking. David [0:26:52]: It's amazing how when you kinda start to go ahead and do that, and you do it enough time over time. David [0:26:56]: You kinda look back and you're like, oh my god. David [0:26:58]: We're trying to get work with fill the blank. David [0:27:01]: And you'll never guess who's connected to the Ceo over there. David [0:27:04]: It was, like, Call who I, like, ran at of conference, then we, like, went out for a drink afterwards for a second. David [0:27:10]: And then we, like, talked and, like, bullshit it, and then next I know I'm like, hey Ke, you know, Rob right now. David [0:27:15]: Oh my god. David [0:27:16]: Rob was my colleague Drew man. David [0:27:17]: It's so funny. David [0:27:18]: He's killed it right now. David [0:27:19]: You're like, He's a crazy man and then the rest history. David [0:27:21]: Right? Callan [0:27:22]: It's so dead on. Callan [0:27:24]: One of the things I did early in my career, and people thought I was nuts was I had a personal sales. Callan [0:27:30]: This... Callan [0:27:31]: When I say earlier, I mean, this would have been two thousand and... Callan [0:27:33]: Ten. David [0:27:34]: Okay? Callan [0:27:35]: I had a personal Salesforce account. Callan [0:27:37]: It was just a contact only. Callan [0:27:38]: It'll make it anymore. Callan [0:27:40]: I'm still grandfather it on this thing. Callan [0:27:42]: I don't use it anymore, but I still have it, like I just won't get rid of it. Callan [0:27:45]: And every contact I would meet. Callan [0:27:47]: And then for, like, for my networking, I would create tasks, and I would create rhythms, like, I'm gonna have a coffee of this person every quarter. Callan [0:27:56]: Or whatever that might be. Callan [0:27:57]: And I know some people are like, wow, that's not personal. Callan [0:27:59]: I'm like, well, you'd be shocked to how much you let, like, to your point, it's so easy to have those relationships slip through the crack. Callan [0:28:07]: And you're always reaching out. Callan [0:28:09]: I mean, I the best ones are, like, when you're reaching out to... Callan [0:28:12]: You've got something that you're offering Ne. Callan [0:28:14]: And is which, you know, Titan full circle. Callan [0:28:15]: It's kinda like where I think about the niche, it's easy for them to choose you because you're always adding value. Callan [0:28:20]: When you have that, you can make introduction to something that's in a different part of their business or that's... Callan [0:28:27]: If it's talking about risk management, Maybe you've got a great attorney that works through this or whatever that might be. Callan [0:28:32]: That understands their space that ends up being a flywheel. Callan [0:28:36]: And I'm curious if you've seen the same. David [0:28:38]: Yeah. David [0:28:38]: Absolutely. David [0:28:39]: I was in a a Linkedin doom scroll black hole one day. David [0:28:42]: I know you know what I'm talking about. Callan [0:28:44]: Hundred percent. David [0:28:45]: And that I get served, like, it's like, three of content, Like, linkedin just said you can tell, like, this is who I am to them. David [0:28:50]: Yep. David [0:28:51]: But one of them was, like, spot on, it was kind of a sales one, and the crux of it was basically like, if you're trying to make... David [0:28:59]: Someone do something they don't wanna do. David [0:29:01]: It's not gonna work. David [0:29:03]: And when when people think about selling first, like, I'm gonna throw something at you to make sure that you, like, get hit by, and if you didn't not you'll say yes. David [0:29:10]: Right? David [0:29:11]: And then the reality is what happened and the in the head is, like, when people are making the choice to do something with you when you're able to, like, take their perspective and understand the things that make them better, and the things that you're delivering make them better, All a sudden it's not a sale. David [0:29:30]: It's a partnership. David [0:29:31]: And this kind ties back full start of the where we started this conversation of, like, when you're thinking about your network as your list of partners. David [0:29:39]: Right? David [0:29:40]: Getting coffee doesn't feel combative because, like, it's not like I want from you. David [0:29:44]: It's like Dude. David [0:29:45]: Let's catch up. David [0:29:46]: Let's see what's going on? David [0:29:47]: Like, how can I help you? David [0:29:48]: What are you working on? David [0:29:49]: You're thinking is like, how can I help you and you're like, hey, here's some things that we're thinking about? David [0:29:52]: Maybe it's nothing maybe it's something, but, when I start to think about my world through your eyes, I think you completely break down all those walls and candidly probably break down some of those fears people have as well as being annoying. David [0:30:04]: Yeah. David [0:30:04]: Because all of a sudden, it's a value added partnership soup to nuts that kinda help make everything smooth and seamless. Callan [0:30:10]: I wholeheartedly agree with that. Callan [0:30:12]: I think that's a great point. Callan [0:30:13]: Okay. Callan [0:30:14]: I've got some kind of off topic things that I'm curious about. Callan [0:30:17]: You know, looking back. Callan [0:30:19]: Right? Callan [0:30:19]: You guys have had a lot of success. Callan [0:30:21]: I named a number of those numbers, but just the fact that you've been in business this long in general, is a huge success, especially for a venture backed company. Callan [0:30:28]: So, you know, one of the things I'm curious about is you had hired Kathy Burns to be Ceo. Callan [0:30:34]: Yep. Callan [0:30:35]: And for any founder, that's really difficult to do. Callan [0:30:39]: What was that transition like? Callan [0:30:42]: What led up to that decision? Callan [0:30:44]: How did you make that transition? Callan [0:30:46]: What did that look like? David [0:30:48]: Yeah. David [0:30:48]: So I mean, Kathy is awesome. David [0:30:49]: And I genuinely chased her Yeah. David [0:30:53]: So if you were wine. David [0:30:54]: So I met Kathy, we were first getting start off. David [0:30:56]: We had no idea what we were doing. Callan [0:30:58]: Mh. David [0:30:58]: And Matt from Oak Capital of as was a contact and one of the first It c's. David [0:31:03]: Yep. David [0:31:03]: And he heard about what we were doing through a friend He's like he got meet Kathy. David [0:31:07]: So Met Cathy, and she was, I think, still ad at the time, which was a kind of early competitor of ours certainly They were they were not early. David [0:31:14]: We were early. David [0:31:15]: And I matter I'm like oh my god. David [0:31:16]: Like, you have lived the company that I'm living to, like, ten times the scale. David [0:31:20]: We should stay in touch. David [0:31:21]: At the time she's like, yeah. David [0:31:22]: Sure. David [0:31:22]: Like, Love yelling for a job, was very nice and we kind of stayed in touch over the years. David [0:31:26]: Fast forward raised our series b, and we're looking for independent board member, and I'm, like, I have the person that she's available. David [0:31:33]: Like I love for her to be part of. David [0:31:34]: Since it was kinda. David [0:31:35]: Yeah. David [0:31:35]: And so Kathy joined our team as an independent board member and was awesome. David [0:31:39]: I mean, she's, like, seen the story play out. David [0:31:41]: She's seen a story that we're walking watching a real time play out where the one of of, Rem was enterprise companies that were going to, like, clears site and Risk connect and invent and origami. David [0:31:53]: And then the two, now we're seeing ten years later following that same trajectory where these middle market companies, these small enterprises are saying, I can't afford a huge system, But I need something to help me do better, and they're kinda hiring risk managers and they're putting system to capture data, Not leverage Ai. David [0:32:10]: And they used to be leveraging mobile, and so just like, she can kinda draw the parallels in the great way. David [0:32:13]: And so we had a great working relationship. David [0:32:15]: I was kinda calling her all the time anyways to just, like, talk about the business thing about things we could do. David [0:32:19]: And we got to a point one day where I think she was looking for her next thing after she out the Ryan after Rye, Touched especially went public. David [0:32:28]: And so she has a minor touch too, which is great fe and and Ryan, not not bad. David [0:32:32]: But my track Record, Man we were talking about what's going on, and we kinda have this idea, which is like, hey, we're working really well together versus going somewhere else and working somewhere that you don't know. David [0:32:44]: Like, jaw come here and work. David [0:32:46]: Together. David [0:32:47]: And I think we sat down and we're like, it probably only works if your Ceo when I kinda step into the president role, because otherwise, it doesn't... David [0:32:54]: Like, it just the scenario that tells that didn't make sense. David [0:32:57]: And so if it was like anybody else and it was like, coming a different way. David [0:33:02]: It probably would been more difficult, but I think we don't, like, really, like, even look at titles is like, I'm over top of you and you're underneath me. David [0:33:10]: It's more like, we just have such a good collaboration. David [0:33:12]: Show almost feels like a c founder at this point in time given to the work she's doing. David [0:33:15]: And so it was a very natural transition where it just seemed to make sense. David [0:33:19]: And cinch come board like the acceleration has been amazing. David [0:33:23]: Our market position has been great. David [0:33:25]: Just brought a great deal of focus and experience and the rest of the history. David [0:33:28]: But, yeah, I didn't draw it up, but I feel like with most things in this business, a lot of this happened organically, and it's like the data points keep on rolling a certain direction, and you kinda wake up and you're like, oh, here we are. David [0:33:39]: This is great. David [0:33:39]: Okay. David [0:33:40]: Let's keep going. Callan [0:33:41]: You know, I think that's interesting. Callan [0:33:42]: So she brought a lot to the table when she got in. Callan [0:33:45]: How did it make your life easier? Callan [0:33:46]: Or actually also, what were the road bumps when this really became official? David [0:33:52]: Yeah. David [0:33:52]: So, we kinda stair stepped into it. David [0:33:55]: So it wasn't like a hard Kathy not here than she's here. David [0:33:58]: She started spending more time with the business right away. Callan [0:34:03]: Yeah. David [0:34:04]: And it was kinda almost... David [0:34:05]: Wasn't quite consulting work, but it was like, part time, I think she was trying to figure out if it was a fit for her. David [0:34:09]: We're were trying to figure out if it was a fit for us. David [0:34:11]: And so it allowed us to, like, both figure out, like, if in a more official environment if our working style still were complementary, and they are, which is great. David [0:34:22]: Thankfully. David [0:34:22]: Yeah. David [0:34:23]: And then also, like, introduce the team to, like, hey Kathy, like, is Kathy working well with the rest of the organization? David [0:34:27]: Are they working well with her? David [0:34:29]: Like, where does she bring kind of help. David [0:34:31]: And so what was amazing for me and, I think we you, Obviously have c cofounder here as well. David [0:34:38]: But having, like, an experienced the leader over the top like that, I think brings, like, a different level of organizational maturity Callan [0:34:47]: Yeah. David [0:34:48]: To the conversation both around, like... David [0:34:49]: Hey. David [0:34:50]: I was there in my career? David [0:34:51]: It's like, shiny sometimes no matter how much still want to. David [0:34:53]: It's like, oh, we should do this. David [0:34:55]: Oh we should that. David [0:34:55]: Oh, we should this. David [0:34:56]: Oh we should do that. David [0:34:56]: And she kinda was able to help us folks and say, what's the most important thing? David [0:34:59]: I've gotten much better at that by the way, over time. Callan [0:35:02]: Well, but like, this probably will never leave. Callan [0:35:03]: I mean, that is kinda like the you know, for me, I think the thing if I'm lucky enough to be able to hire a Ceo one day. Callan [0:35:13]: I excited about that because now I can go start working on the things that I get excited about while somebody is, I think what just said brings an organizational maturity. Callan [0:35:25]: They know this type of business, they've been in this type of business they scale this type of business. Callan [0:35:29]: They know where to take this. Callan [0:35:31]: Which I don't think is the best fit in the earliest stages. Callan [0:35:33]: Oh, no. Callan [0:35:34]: But once you get to a certain point, that allows the founder. Callan [0:35:37]: If frees up the founder to then, okay. Callan [0:35:40]: Let's work on what's coming next? Callan [0:35:41]: What's our horizon, Mckinsey horizon three, you know, three to five years down the road. Callan [0:35:45]: Three, five, ten years down the road. Callan [0:35:47]: Yep. Callan [0:35:47]: Then I wanna start to bring in. David [0:35:49]: Yeah. David [0:35:49]: No. David [0:35:49]: I I think you nailed in the head too. David [0:35:50]: And it's again, the second part your question, where have I've been able to focus. David [0:35:53]: So for us, partnerships thinking about kind of, like, the product vision, especially with kind of, like, where Ai is going and kind of how we can incorporate the best of that and leveraging the best in breed as well. David [0:36:04]: Thinking about distribution strategy and kinda helping initial our processes. David [0:36:08]: So she was able to kinda take part of the workload here that, by the way, like, I can do, and she can do too. David [0:36:16]: But where we kinda sat down and we're were, like, Okay. David [0:36:18]: How do you look the baby? David [0:36:19]: And it's like, okay. David [0:36:20]: Here's... David [0:36:20]: This is the stuff Casualty gonna take this is what I'm gonna take We're gonna meat over up in the middle on these couple of things. David [0:36:24]: We'll stay super tight. David [0:36:25]: To Cathy. David [0:36:26]: Probably, I don't know, four times a day, five times a day. David [0:36:28]: Yeah. David [0:36:29]: Even runs in the weekends. David [0:36:29]: And you're like, okay. David [0:36:31]: Yeah, it really does feel like... David [0:36:32]: Almost having a c founder, but a partner, but one where, like, the single best thing I think that happened is when you get really good talent around you, When day you wake up and you're like, I gotta go do this and you're like, oh, wait. David [0:36:45]: God did that. David [0:36:47]: Oh, this is this great. David [0:36:49]: I can, like, take this part of my list to just shout out the window. David [0:36:52]: Get in the next thing. David [0:36:53]: And I think we kinda really found that. David [0:36:54]: So it's really about having leveraged trust in me kind someone gonna inspire confidence in your team has been just like a thing I didn't draw up, but has been awesome awesome kinda like boom for us. Callan [0:37:05]: I love that. Callan [0:37:06]: I mean, it just show so much I like you guys for setting up and really, like, to move to that next level. Callan [0:37:11]: So that's excellent. Callan [0:37:12]: So, David, last question I have here is If you can go back to when at the time, you're now father. Callan [0:37:20]: But at the time, your girlfriend's dad came to you with this idea, what advice would you give yourself and what would that conversation be? David [0:37:33]: So I'm gonna tell this man to wear ear must. David [0:37:35]: But one of the things that I have found to be true over time is there is so much benefits to wisdom and to people who have been there before. David [0:37:44]: And so my full, like, headed cocky, you know, like, late twenties self. David [0:37:50]: Was obnoxious. David [0:37:51]: But, you know, like I knew everything I was vegan. David [0:37:53]: Right? David [0:37:54]: Like, was so quick to be, like, this is no. David [0:37:57]: Instead of being, like, in the course of this business, there's been only a handful of times that Mike has been wrong. David [0:38:03]: I think he's able to see around the corner in ways that, like, I don't know. David [0:38:08]: He's, like, a avant of, like, two or three things. David [0:38:10]: You get, like, named sports trivia from, like, any time since, like, nineteen fifty, like, down to, like, the player or the that's Callan [0:38:16]: the Detroit thing. Callan [0:38:16]: That's Detroit. David [0:38:17]: Hundred percent of is. David [0:38:18]: Right he because you have to. David [0:38:19]: And he has a crystal ball that he hides in his house somewhere. David [0:38:22]: And he, like, tells you what's on it sometimes. David [0:38:24]: And when he does gotta listen. David [0:38:26]: I'm sure he'll love he'll love that piece betting. David [0:38:28]: The biggest thing for me is just listen more. David [0:38:30]: You might learn something. David [0:38:31]: Yeah. David [0:38:31]: And maybe be a little more open to the possibility That this was right. David [0:38:34]: I would saved myself three years of, like, in and out to figure out what was going on, and he would have been three years for down the path right now. Callan [0:38:40]: You know, it's so funny because on the last episode, Chris P so said something similar and that... Callan [0:38:47]: Not so much the... Callan [0:38:48]: It's more it's a don't be afraid to bring in expert. David [0:38:52]: Mh. Callan [0:38:52]: Well whomever is that expert at that specific function. Callan [0:38:56]: Now this is a little bit different. Callan [0:38:57]: Like, I hear what you're saying. Callan [0:38:58]: Like, in a general concept, and that is such big recurring theme, and I totally wholeheartedly agree with that, like, higher experts tire coaches, git mentors, all those things it's amazing how much... Callan [0:39:10]: I mean, don't get me wrong. Callan [0:39:11]: There is value into learning by doing and making mistakes, but it's not that if you make less mistakes. David [0:39:21]: This, by the way, if you were to like, interview my parents the one thing they would tell you about in my whole life is it didn't matter what they told me, like I had to, like, figure it out for myself. Callan [0:39:30]: Yeah. David [0:39:31]: Always for everything. David [0:39:32]: No matter how right they were. David [0:39:33]: As just my personality. David [0:39:35]: I think it's probably part of the reason why I'm an entrepreneur, but I think it's something meant that I've gotten better at over time is, like, being able to learn from others. David [0:39:42]: Me I would, like, hear the advice in, like, Yep. David [0:39:45]: Internalize it without being, like, no. David [0:39:47]: Like, I can sell the Asia and you're like, oh, I canceled tell that, like, there's a time zone difference and you're, like, no. David [0:39:53]: And, again, we didn't try to do that by the way. David [0:39:55]: But like, it said same basic concept where you're... David [0:39:57]: Yeah. David [0:39:58]: Know what Mean? David [0:39:58]: And you're right. David [0:39:59]: The other thing was the experts though. David [0:40:00]: And this I thing is other weird thinking about the insurance space is you have so many people that are so good know so many things. David [0:40:07]: But you also have a lot of people who really good at selling. David [0:40:10]: And trying to, like, sure, delineate those two is really tough especially when you're early on. David [0:40:16]: And so I think finding those who like vetted that you can know and trust is key, but you're so right of, like, having the experts you can tap on and lean into? David [0:40:25]: Magic. Callan [0:40:27]: I love it. Callan [0:40:27]: David, this has been great, man. Callan [0:40:29]: I can't believe this has already flown by this fast. Callan [0:40:31]: I appreciate coming on. Callan [0:40:33]: This was a lot of fun. David [0:40:34]: Awesome, Kyle. David [0:40:35]: Thank you so much, but I appreciate hundred percent.