Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Nixon (1995) - Oliver Stone | Houselights #194

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Nixon (1995) - Oliver Stone | Houselights #194 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Welcome to the NED party.
0:20
Speaker 2: Welcome back to House Lights, specifically the House of Stone,
0:23
Speaker 2: as we plod through his biopics of the nineteen nineties
0:26
Speaker 2: and beyond, and we stop here in nineteen ninety five
0:30
Speaker 2: to watch the very long film known as Nixon, which
0:36
Speaker 2: is about I'm going to spoilers here. It's about Richard
0:39
Speaker 2: Milhouse Nixon, one of the presidents of the United States,
0:42
Speaker 2: known for a few things in particular. I am one
0:44
Speaker 2: of your hosts. I am President John Mills. I am
0:47
Speaker 2: joined by my National Security advisor and Secretary of State
0:50
Speaker 2: Tristan Riddell, and my shadowy CIA handler Darren Moser. Gentlemen,
0:56
Speaker 2: let's dig in to the director's cut of Nick, a
1:01
Speaker 2: movie starring Anthony Hopkins in some uncanny valley between makeup
1:06
Speaker 2: and parody. Question mark, let's just get going here. I'm
1:10
Speaker 2: all my cards out on the table. I'll be making
1:13
Speaker 2: horrible attempts at humor through this, just to keep myself awake,
1:16
Speaker 2: because this movie, well, let's just kick it off. Let's
1:20
Speaker 2: just go. Let's let's just hug the cactus. As they say, gentlemen, Uh,
1:25
Speaker 2: this is my first time seeing it. Who else's first
1:27
Speaker 2: time seeing it? I think all of us, all three
1:30
Speaker 2: of us, our first time.
1:31
Speaker 3: Seeing seeing it in this movie, it was three and
1:34
Speaker 3: a half hours long. It felt longer than the Cold War.
1:39
Speaker 3: That was my That was the worst Kissinger impression ever?
1:43
Speaker 3: What you thought I could do it?
1:46
Speaker 4: I knew who you were going for, and thus it
1:48
Speaker 4: was a great interpretation.
1:50
Speaker 3: Like that's one of those we all know that can
1:52
Speaker 3: do that. I can do that, and then you test
1:54
Speaker 3: it out and you're like, no, you can't.
1:57
Speaker 2: Uh you know I I will say, at the very least,
2:00
Speaker 2: all Sorvino's makeup was very successful in terms of making
2:03
Speaker 2: him look like Kissinger. So kudos to everybody. And so
2:09
Speaker 2: this is our all of us, this is our first
2:11
Speaker 2: time seeing it, and we're gonna plod right into it.
2:14
Speaker 2: We've already talked about the running time, Tristan as is typical.
2:18
Speaker 2: I love to ask you first questions about editing and
2:22
Speaker 2: everything like that. How much more would you have added
2:25
Speaker 2: to Nixon's run time for the ultimate cut? The final
2:29
Speaker 2: cut of Nixon should be four and a half five
2:31
Speaker 2: and a half hours. Are we talking to Lord of
2:33
Speaker 2: the Rings Territory here?
2:34
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Like I can't imagine that there's anything
2:39
Speaker 3: on the cutting room floor with this, Like there's so
2:42
Speaker 3: there's so many long movies out there that are fantastic,
2:45
Speaker 3: you know, like there's like Ten Commandments, Lawrence of Arabia,
2:50
Speaker 3: you know, Lord of the Rings. I know, none of
2:53
Speaker 3: the Harry Potter movies I think breached the three hour mark,
2:55
Speaker 3: but they are, you know, they're they're long. They get
2:58
Speaker 3: close anyway. It's just like there's tons.
3:01
Speaker 4: Like the last one into two movies it could have.
3:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing. It's just like, so I'm not
3:05
Speaker 3: saying like movies can't be long, and there's tons of
3:07
Speaker 3: great long movies. This movie you felt every single scene,
3:13
Speaker 3: almost every scene you're in You're like, man, are we
3:17
Speaker 3: still here? We're still having this conversation, like your body
3:22
Speaker 3: forces your mind to turn off. Like I did not
3:25
Speaker 3: have my phone near me. I never watch movies with
3:27
Speaker 3: my phone. I don't have any other distractions. When I
3:31
Speaker 3: watch movies, I sit down and that's what I'm doing.
3:33
Speaker 3: And I had to remind myself to pay attention because
3:37
Speaker 3: I just started to gloss over because of how it's
3:40
Speaker 3: just this movie is about everything, yeah, about nothing at
3:43
Speaker 3: the same time.
3:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll cop to it. Darren, I like Tristan hit
3:48
Speaker 2: something of a fugue state during this film, where I
3:50
Speaker 2: was kind of like, what where am I does time exist?
3:54
Speaker 2: I miss JFK with its bold editing and tremendous choices
3:58
Speaker 2: in how to make scenes flow. Oh and all of
4:01
Speaker 2: those sorts of things. I'm presuming we're three for three here,
4:05
Speaker 2: or are you gonna be our dark horse candidate come
4:07
Speaker 2: racing in and say, guys, you are nuts, You're out
4:09
Speaker 2: of your mind. This is a movie that sings. It
4:12
Speaker 2: couldn't be editor edited anymore. Sharply.
4:14
Speaker 4: No, I will not be saying any of those words
4:16
Speaker 4: in any particular order. Yeah, this it makes me. It
4:20
Speaker 4: made me rethink art. Let's pick the director's cut stance,
4:25
Speaker 4: because dear god, this was a long movie. And yeah,
4:29
Speaker 4: I don't I mean, I'm not gonna fall on my
4:33
Speaker 4: sword and watch the director's cut or the theatrical cut
4:35
Speaker 4: to see the difference, because I don't care enough to
4:39
Speaker 4: know was added in or not added in. But yeah, so,
4:46
Speaker 4: but runtime aside, you know, well cast movie. I mean,
4:51
Speaker 4: I love watching mid nineties movies because it's like, oh,
4:54
Speaker 4: there's that guy, Oh there's that guy. I mean, you've
4:56
Speaker 4: got James Woods you got, you know, David Hydepierce is
5:01
Speaker 4: popping up sal rubin all sorts of awesome act We
5:05
Speaker 4: got Chakota for a line, and they're just I don't
5:08
Speaker 4: know who they are historically exactly exactly, and that's like
5:12
Speaker 4: prime voyager time right there.
5:14
Speaker 3: He's right there.
5:16
Speaker 4: So yeah it I did enjoy the ensemble immensely, like
5:21
Speaker 4: it was a well a well cast movie. And you know,
5:25
Speaker 4: to your point on Nixon on Anthony Hopkins, yeah, I
5:30
Speaker 4: felt he It's interesting because I felt he blended into
5:34
Speaker 4: the role. But I think a part of that is
5:37
Speaker 4: it's nineteen ninety five. Every recent movie I've seen of
5:41
Speaker 4: the Anthony Hopkins he's old Anthony Hopkins, and this is
5:45
Speaker 4: so long ago that it just he looks like a
5:47
Speaker 4: different person because it's several decades. So yeah, it's that
5:52
Speaker 4: going for it.
5:53
Speaker 2: Well, I agree with you. I think that there is
5:55
Speaker 2: some great casting here. There's a little tidbit floating out there.
6:00
Speaker 2: Before I say this, I just want to say J. T.
6:03
Speaker 2: Walsh has always been one of my favorite character actors.
6:07
Speaker 2: God rest his soul, and seeing him in a movie,
6:10
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yes, cool, Like I haven't seen J. T.
6:14
Speaker 2: Walsh in something in a while obviously, and I would
6:16
Speaker 2: like to see him again. I was like, yeah, all right, Mark,
6:18
Speaker 2: equality right, there is J. T. Walsh in your film.
6:22
Speaker 2: I thought that there were a couple of performances that
6:24
Speaker 2: stood out. I don't think Sorvino really stood out as Kissinger,
6:29
Speaker 2: but I thought Woods as hr Haldeman was a standout performance.
6:34
Speaker 4: Woods stole every scene he was in and what's my
6:37
Speaker 4: eyes off?
6:37
Speaker 2: Him?
6:38
Speaker 4: It was so good.
6:39
Speaker 2: What's interesting is that part was originally supposed to go
6:41
Speaker 2: to Ed Harris, who instead played Howard.
6:44
Speaker 4: Hunt was one like a minuscule in the bucket.
6:48
Speaker 2: So do you think that Ed Harris hates James Woods
6:51
Speaker 2: to this day or do you think that Ed Harris
6:53
Speaker 2: is like, well, I don't have the stink of this
6:55
Speaker 2: movie on me because people barely remember I'm in it anyway,
6:58
Speaker 2: just throw that out there.
6:59
Speaker 4: He doesn't just owned it like he does the Abyss.
7:01
Speaker 4: So that's probably, you know, at least going on.
7:04
Speaker 2: Odd choice, Odd choice, mister Harris. I'm going to say
7:07
Speaker 2: you might want to reevaluate these things here, although maybe
7:10
Speaker 2: that's a testament to what a jerk James Cameron is.
7:13
Speaker 2: I don't know. But we also have we have all
7:17
Speaker 2: of this great talent. We have a biopic that is
7:21
Speaker 2: absolutely you know, Stone has free reign at this point.
7:24
Speaker 2: He's had the critical success of JFK, He's had the
7:28
Speaker 2: critical and relative critical and commercial success of The Doors.
7:34
Speaker 2: He's got a lot of heat on him. I think
7:36
Speaker 2: natural Born Killers came out in ninety four, didn't natural
7:39
Speaker 2: Born Killers came out before this, right, I think, But
7:41
Speaker 2: it's right around this time in the nineties, And so
7:45
Speaker 2: he's got a lot of swagger, like he's relatively untouchable
7:48
Speaker 2: at this point. If somebody's going to get away with
7:50
Speaker 2: making a Nixon film, it's almost like, at this point
7:52
Speaker 2: in his career, this is the logical choice. This is
7:55
Speaker 2: who you're going to come to.
7:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, andrel Bloy Killers was the year before, in ninety four, so.
7:59
Speaker 2: Nice, nice And I have my own problems with that movie,
8:02
Speaker 2: but we're not talking about that one.
8:03
Speaker 4: He's like making three movies a year, like not directing
8:06
Speaker 4: all of them, but he is cranking these things out.
8:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got kind of wonder what energy drinks he
8:11
Speaker 2: was taken at the time, because he didn't seem to
8:14
Speaker 2: sleep a whole lot. But I think that you know,
8:17
Speaker 2: you have here all of the ingredients for what we
8:20
Speaker 2: would expect to wind up being a very special sort
8:23
Speaker 2: of thing. But what I noted about it, and Tristan
8:26
Speaker 2: I'll throw this over to you, is this is our
8:28
Speaker 2: first biopic where like it's really like The Doors is
8:32
Speaker 2: about Jim Morrison and The Doors. While it's very much
8:35
Speaker 2: focused on Morrison, there's at least lip service to the
8:39
Speaker 2: other guys going on there. JFK is about somebody other
8:43
Speaker 2: than JFKA and all of the people that it touched everything,
8:46
Speaker 2: but Nixon is very much laser focused on Hopkins as Nixon.
8:50
Speaker 2: Do you think that that is one of the problems
8:54
Speaker 2: is that Stone isn't used to something that straightforward, Like
8:57
Speaker 2: with The Doors, he had something a little more or experimental,
9:01
Speaker 2: a little weirder, a little looser, a little bit more
9:04
Speaker 2: music video. He had other characters he could rely on,
9:06
Speaker 2: but this is like three and a half hours of Hopkins. Basically,
9:10
Speaker 2: do you think this is just a structure that Stone's
9:12
Speaker 2: out of his element? Absolutely?
9:13
Speaker 3: I think I think that's a very solid question. And
9:17
Speaker 3: I think that one of the you kind of hit
9:21
Speaker 3: it on the head there where you know, with The Doors,
9:24
Speaker 3: we have like one flashback where where Morrison is a
9:29
Speaker 3: young kid and then like kind of where he rejects.
9:32
Speaker 3: Then we go to college where he rejects his college
9:35
Speaker 3: education to go start a band. That's an important part,
9:38
Speaker 3: you know, you got to start a band. And with JFK,
9:42
Speaker 3: it wasn't it wasn't really about JFK. It was about
9:44
Speaker 3: his assassination. And we follow the prosecutor and so you
9:50
Speaker 3: follow him, follow him around that event, like we don't
9:52
Speaker 3: see you know, Kevin Costar's character as a kid and
9:56
Speaker 3: how he grew up and issues he has with his
9:59
Speaker 3: parents and with his mother and everything like that. It's
10:01
Speaker 3: just it's just about him during that time and his
10:03
Speaker 3: family life, you know, combating the assassination of JFK and
10:07
Speaker 3: how to prosecute and with Nixon, he tries to do
10:13
Speaker 3: a typical biopic, but in a nonlinear fashion. And normally
10:19
Speaker 3: I really like nonlinear movies. I like things that jump
10:22
Speaker 3: around and mix things up and go back and forth.
10:25
Speaker 3: With this one, I really feel like you didn't need
10:30
Speaker 3: all of that backstory jumbled up because Nixon had such
10:36
Speaker 3: a complex political career with ups and downs, ups and downs,
10:41
Speaker 3: ups and downs, and that like that's you know, was
10:45
Speaker 3: covering a vast amount of time that it's almost impossible
10:49
Speaker 3: to cover all of it. And I made that joke
10:51
Speaker 3: earlier on about how Stone you know, you know, we
10:54
Speaker 3: have three and a half hours of movie, but yet
10:56
Speaker 3: I'm really surprised on what he left out, Like what
10:59
Speaker 3: on earth could he put in there? But as I'm
11:02
Speaker 3: watching it, I feel like I'm watching an incomplete story,
11:06
Speaker 3: Like I don't know what I'm supposed to focus on,
11:08
Speaker 3: Like am I Am I supposed to focus on the
11:11
Speaker 3: Watergate scandal? Am I supposed to focus how he has
11:13
Speaker 3: mommy issues? Am I still supposed to focus on his
11:18
Speaker 3: you know, on his own character issues, you know, like
11:20
Speaker 3: you know, like his own insecurities and his anti social
11:24
Speaker 3: behavior which is well documented, you know, Like am I
11:26
Speaker 3: supposed to focus on his relationship with the CIA? You know, like, uh,
11:31
Speaker 3: not just Watergate, but his illegal wiretapping, you know, like Cambodia,
11:36
Speaker 3: you know, Vietnam. There's just so much Like Nixon was
11:39
Speaker 3: an incredibly complex man, and Stone tried to craft an
11:43
Speaker 3: incredibly complex narrative, but yet you don't gain anything from it.
11:49
Speaker 3: And I think that's that's the biggest problem that I
11:51
Speaker 3: have with it. I feel like if you the Watergate
11:55
Speaker 3: scandal and everything that came about it, the eighteen and
11:59
Speaker 3: a half Minutes tapes, you know, like you know, Congress
12:02
Speaker 3: going against him, the illegal wire tapping, abuse of power.
12:06
Speaker 3: If they I feel like if they just focused on that,
12:11
Speaker 3: like those couple of years, we would have gotten to
12:14
Speaker 3: know everything we needed to know about Nixon. And we
12:17
Speaker 3: didn't need any of the flashbacks. We didn't need to
12:19
Speaker 3: go back to when he was a kid. We didn't
12:21
Speaker 3: need any of that extra stuff. And I know this
12:24
Speaker 3: is me writing the movie and saying like, oh, I
12:27
Speaker 3: wish this is the movie we had. That's not the
12:29
Speaker 3: movie we got. But as I'm watching it, I'm just like, this,
12:32
Speaker 3: this is not what we needed. This is not what
12:34
Speaker 3: the movie Nixon needed. Use all the same people, use
12:38
Speaker 3: all the same characters, use use all the same actors,
12:42
Speaker 3: you know, get the same editor, producers, you know, like everything,
12:46
Speaker 3: even Stone. Just keep the director, but just focus on
12:49
Speaker 3: one event and explore how that man reacts to that
12:52
Speaker 3: one event and the world crumbling down on him. And
12:54
Speaker 3: we do see that, but it's so bombarded by dozens
12:59
Speaker 3: of the things that you don't know what to focus on.
13:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I would say there's a decent ninety
13:06
Speaker 2: minute movie somewhere in this three and a half hours basically,
13:10
Speaker 2: and that's that's not a slight. I mean, it's like
13:13
Speaker 2: you could have told this story much more quickly and
13:16
Speaker 2: had more ups and downs in those sorts of things.
13:19
Speaker 2: But Darren, do you think that Stone is too aware
13:24
Speaker 2: at this point of criticisms of historical inaccuracy because this
13:28
Speaker 2: is the first one and the ones that we're watching
13:31
Speaker 2: where at the very front of the movie a title
13:35
Speaker 2: card comes up and is like, I swear, guys, you
13:38
Speaker 2: gotta believe me. This is this is like toat's true.
13:41
Speaker 2: I filled in a couple of gaps, but promises promises.
13:44
Speaker 2: I swear I didn't lie this time. Like, did you
13:48
Speaker 2: get that vibe? I deal, those weren't the exact words,
13:50
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty close. I'm pretty close now.
13:52
Speaker 4: I think Tots was in there for sure.
13:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:54
Speaker 4: But yeah, So as you guys were chatting, it made
13:59
Speaker 4: me kind of coalesced. Two thoughts about this movie. One is,
14:03
Speaker 4: I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about Nixon.
14:07
Speaker 4: I'm I'm shotgunned with his past, his political career, his
14:12
Speaker 4: personal life and his and all this stuff. So it's
14:16
Speaker 4: like I don't I'm not led on a path at all.
14:19
Speaker 4: It's like a choose your own adventure, decide for yourself.
14:23
Speaker 4: And so I'm like, okay, you know, I don't like
14:27
Speaker 4: the parts were you know, his infant brothers screaming. That
14:30
Speaker 4: makes me feel sad. But then he's like a jerk
14:33
Speaker 4: to his wife.
14:34
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I have to interrupt. I have to interrupt. No, No,
14:38
Speaker 3: that scene was so distressing, Like I had to I
14:43
Speaker 3: had to hit I had to hit the ten second
14:45
Speaker 3: skip on my on my Apple TV. Like I was
14:48
Speaker 3: physically distressed from that scene. Like as a father, I
14:52
Speaker 3: was like, oh, that's like the most distressed from a
14:55
Speaker 3: movie I've been in a long time. And it's like like.
14:58
Speaker 4: Calling out for their father to make it st I know,
15:01
Speaker 4: I could not wait for that scene to be over.
15:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, but I had to mention that.
15:06
Speaker 4: But no, no, I felt this, thank you for calling that
15:09
Speaker 4: out because I felt the same way.
15:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:11
Speaker 4: So I don't know how I meant to feel for Nixon,
15:16
Speaker 4: and I get at a point as a director you
15:19
Speaker 4: can kind of leave things up to your audience's interpretation,
15:21
Speaker 4: but also as a director, your goal, your drive should
15:24
Speaker 4: be to lead on a story journey with something to
15:30
Speaker 4: be presented, and so it's like, I feel like I
15:33
Speaker 4: came into the movie with what little I knew about
15:35
Speaker 4: Nixon and Watergate and all that, but I didn't really
15:38
Speaker 4: learn anything. Like it was just so much there and
15:44
Speaker 4: at the end, I'm just like it kind of went
15:46
Speaker 4: in one ear and out the other, honestly, Like it
15:49
Speaker 4: just it flowed right through me. And I'm like, I
15:51
Speaker 4: kind of have the same feeling I did about Nixon
15:53
Speaker 4: as I did before, Like that's.
15:55
Speaker 2: About it, you know. I think that something else that
16:00
Speaker 2: speaks to Stone's challenge in trying to handle this he
16:04
Speaker 2: very much. I remember him taking heat at the time
16:06
Speaker 2: because I'm naturally I'm older than you two, and I
16:10
Speaker 2: can remember some of the discussion going around where some
16:13
Speaker 2: of the critics were saying that they didn't I'm paraphrasing here,
16:17
Speaker 2: but they didn't like the fact that they tried to
16:18
Speaker 2: humanize Nixon. Nixon is like a larger than life Dracula
16:22
Speaker 2: of villain to a certain segment of the population, like
16:26
Speaker 2: he George Lucas. I don't know how many times it's
16:29
Speaker 2: referred to the Emperor as Richard M. Nixon and I'm like, Okay, wow,
16:34
Speaker 2: that's that is something like he like that is you know,
16:38
Speaker 2: the embodiment of evil was Richard Dixon, and it's like, wow,
16:41
Speaker 2: that's what he means to some people. And so it
16:45
Speaker 2: feels almost like Stone was working so hard to make
16:50
Speaker 2: him understandable without making him relatable, and as a result,
16:55
Speaker 2: you have to you have to like pick a lane
16:58
Speaker 2: sort of thing or find a way to make those
16:59
Speaker 2: things synthesize. And I think that the he just I
17:05
Speaker 2: it seems to me and Tristan, I don't know how
17:08
Speaker 2: you would feel about this, But ninety five is, you know,
17:11
Speaker 2: roughly twenty years after so it's you know, it's been
17:14
Speaker 2: twenty years. People have the benefit of perspective. Not all
17:18
Speaker 2: of the records about everything was were unsealed and all
17:20
Speaker 2: of that stuff, and there were still, you know, people
17:24
Speaker 2: with still definite impressions and everything like that. Do you
17:27
Speaker 2: think that this is a movie where Stone's ambition made
17:30
Speaker 2: him make it ten years before it should have been done.
17:32
Speaker 2: Do you think that ten more years would have given
17:35
Speaker 2: Stone the opportunity to find the way he wanted to
17:39
Speaker 2: tell this story.
17:41
Speaker 3: That's an interesting question. I feel like he probably wouldn't
17:46
Speaker 3: have got gotten the heat that he got when it
17:48
Speaker 3: came out, because you know, like it came out like
17:51
Speaker 3: right when Nixon died, or like right before, like right
17:54
Speaker 3: or right almost right around the time, because like the
17:56
Speaker 3: movie was completed and then Nixon died and then inserted
18:00
Speaker 3: funeral footage like right before the movie was released. And
18:05
Speaker 3: this was this movie was really divisive with people because
18:10
Speaker 3: because Nixon was still alive like he was, he still
18:12
Speaker 3: had social circles. I think a Disney, a member of
18:16
Speaker 3: the Disney family, was so pissed off that this was
18:20
Speaker 3: released under a Disney banner that she formally apologized to
18:25
Speaker 3: the Nixon family on behalf of the Disney family because
18:28
Speaker 3: she felt like it portrayed Nixon in such a negative
18:32
Speaker 3: light light. And so you know, like when you know,
18:37
Speaker 3: like Nixon was Nixon scandal was obviously pre Clinton scandal,
18:41
Speaker 3: pre Trump's fifteen thousand scandals, and it was like looking
18:47
Speaker 3: back on it through a twenty twenty four lens, it's
18:49
Speaker 3: almost adorable, you know that like this, you know, almost
18:52
Speaker 3: split the country in half. You know, like because of
18:56
Speaker 3: everything that we have lived with in the nineties two thousand,
19:00
Speaker 3: in twenty tens and twenty twenties with political intrigue and
19:05
Speaker 3: and you know.
19:06
Speaker 2: Illegal eativity, kinge of the Needle.
19:09
Speaker 3: No, no, this, this would be This wouldn't even make
19:12
Speaker 3: a week in our twenty four hour news cycle. And
19:15
Speaker 3: it's crazy. It's crazy.
19:17
Speaker 2: Now.
19:17
Speaker 3: I'm like people who are history buffs, who realize everything
19:23
Speaker 3: that that Nixon did positively as well as negatively, know
19:29
Speaker 3: that this isn't a trifle, you know, like he's this
19:33
Speaker 3: isn't something that should be especially the abuse of power,
19:38
Speaker 3: when when you look at what he did in abusing
19:40
Speaker 3: his power and like utilizing the FBI and the CIA
19:42
Speaker 3: and the I R S as you know, against his
19:44
Speaker 3: own political opponents, and you know, creating the plumbers Unit
19:47
Speaker 3: and trying to obstruct justice with the CIA, and straight
19:53
Speaker 3: up intimidation against his critics, and and you know, campaign
19:58
Speaker 3: finance violations, most likely perjured himself, contempt of Congress, like
20:04
Speaker 3: all this stuff. You know, like this it sounds horrible
20:07
Speaker 3: and it is horrible, but we are so desensitized in
20:11
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four to political scandal that if he made
20:15
Speaker 3: it today, I think maybe or maybe not today, you
20:20
Speaker 3: said ten years later, you said ten years later, Like
20:22
Speaker 3: if you made it ten years later, Yeah, it would
20:25
Speaker 3: not have made the splash that it did. Like people
20:27
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been pissed off as he did. So Like,
20:29
Speaker 3: as I'm talking this and I'm kind of rambling now,
20:32
Speaker 3: I feel like it's probably almost advantageous to him that
20:35
Speaker 3: he released it when he did, Even if it's an
20:38
Speaker 3: inferior film than if he did it ten years later.
20:41
Speaker 3: It at least got people talking about it because it
20:44
Speaker 3: pissed off so many people.
20:46
Speaker 2: Well, that's a fair point. There used to be. You know,
20:49
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as bad press. There's just press,
20:52
Speaker 2: you know, so if people are talking about your film,
20:54
Speaker 2: I mean he he had the controversy with Natural Born
20:56
Speaker 2: Killers the year before, which was a terribly controversial film
21:00
Speaker 2: and weird thing that maybe we should all cover at
21:02
Speaker 2: some point. But what's even crazier, just to contextualize you're
21:06
Speaker 2: talking about abuses of power, is very shortly after the
21:10
Speaker 2: Watergate scandal, project MK Ultra was rolled out and the
21:16
Speaker 2: CIA talked about it openly, and it was like not
21:19
Speaker 2: many people even talk about that, And it's like that's
21:22
Speaker 2: the type of like sort of like scandalous cover that
21:24
Speaker 2: the coverage of Watergate gave. Is like MK Ultra was like,
21:29
Speaker 2: there's not great stuff, folks, and like that. That's the
21:33
Speaker 2: sort of thing where it's like certain things grow so
21:36
Speaker 2: large in our cultural consciousness that they just sort of
21:41
Speaker 2: exist there. And you were talking about the social circles
21:43
Speaker 2: and everything that the Simpsons would even make playful Nixon jokes.
21:47
Speaker 2: You know, Futurama made endless Nixon jokes, but the Simpsons
21:52
Speaker 2: even had him on the Jury of the Damned before
21:55
Speaker 2: he died. And I'm not jud yet. In fact, I
21:58
Speaker 2: just wrote an article of Red Book, like it's one
22:02
Speaker 2: of those things where he wrote a number of books
22:04
Speaker 2: after his resignation, all of those sorts of things. And
22:09
Speaker 2: it's just just us having this conversation. I feel like
22:12
Speaker 2: we're I mean, Darren, are we off the track here?
22:15
Speaker 2: Like it feels like there's even more stuff that Stone
22:18
Speaker 2: mysteriously just walks away from. And he's a guy that
22:21
Speaker 2: the movie we just watched JFK. He didn't shy away
22:24
Speaker 2: from all of the conspiracy stuff or the cover ups
22:26
Speaker 2: or the layers within layers or circles within circles.
22:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't know, maybe it could have been like, Okay,
22:34
Speaker 4: here's the twenty big things of Nixon's life and I
22:38
Speaker 4: only have time to talk about six of them, and
22:41
Speaker 4: he just picked the wrong six or the wrong combination,
22:44
Speaker 4: Like it could have been as simple as that. I think,
22:48
Speaker 4: at its core, this was my other main point besides
22:52
Speaker 4: the feeling about Nixon, is I felt as an audience
22:57
Speaker 4: member that I was kept at arms length because there's
23:01
Speaker 4: nothing internal about Nixon. I felt every frame of Nixon
23:06
Speaker 4: I got was a on stage, on show presentation Nixon,
23:11
Speaker 4: even the moments when he's being vulnerable with his wife
23:14
Speaker 4: or as or as coworkers or even those I never
23:17
Speaker 4: felt like the movie gave an outlet for Nixon to
23:22
Speaker 4: communicate to me as an audience member, as a viewer,
23:28
Speaker 4: what was really going on internally. So everything is external
23:33
Speaker 4: and so you're kind of just along for the ride.
23:36
Speaker 4: Your might as well be in the passenger seat as
23:39
Speaker 4: one of his cabinet members for as much as you know.
23:42
Speaker 4: And that's maybe why we connect with those characters as much,
23:44
Speaker 4: because we're in the same boat. So that that's just
23:48
Speaker 4: I think as a core, and I don't have the
23:50
Speaker 4: solution on how you would fix that, but something I've
23:54
Speaker 4: seen movies do that where you can get inside the
23:56
Speaker 4: head of a guy and convey, you know, if you're
24:00
Speaker 4: doing tapes or journals or something, because like when he
24:05
Speaker 4: starts to talk about himself in the third person a lot,
24:07
Speaker 4: he's like, well, Nixon would never say that, or like, oh,
24:09
Speaker 4: the President would never do that, And I'm like, okay,
24:12
Speaker 4: Like it's so odd that lens we were given and
24:17
Speaker 4: it wasn't even a lens into this man. It was
24:19
Speaker 4: a lens into his world. So it wasn't deep enough.
24:24
Speaker 2: But see, I think you're you're on the track though,
24:27
Speaker 2: because you know, I'll take a swing at restructuring it.
24:30
Speaker 2: It should be done in all honesty, the same way
24:33
Speaker 2: that Citizen Kane is, where you have different people talking
24:37
Speaker 2: about being next to Nixon and you see Nixon, but
24:42
Speaker 2: Nixon is always who the the main you know, whoever
24:45
Speaker 2: the main character of that arc of the story is.
24:48
Speaker 2: As they're flashing back, you see Nixon from their perspective.
24:52
Speaker 2: I think that would even open it up and make
24:54
Speaker 2: it even more relatable, because there's an attempt to make him.
24:58
Speaker 2: His daughter comes up and says, show the world what
25:00
Speaker 2: a sweet and loving man you can be, and it's
25:03
Speaker 2: like I never saw him sweet and loving with his family.
25:07
Speaker 2: What the hell are you talking about.
25:09
Speaker 4: Or even with his mother. He talks about his mother,
25:11
Speaker 4: but I never felt like I was in the mother's perspective.
25:14
Speaker 4: It was always his perspective of his mother of him.
25:18
Speaker 2: Right, yes, which is really weird.
25:20
Speaker 3: Filmmakers speaking of the mother. Filmmakers who deal with real
25:25
Speaker 3: people love tying something onto one aspect of their past
25:33
Speaker 3: and that's it. And Stone was just like the mother.
25:37
Speaker 3: This is why Nixon is the way he is.
25:40
Speaker 4: They even have Chester say it in the end. He
25:43
Speaker 4: says like, if only that man, I'm not doing them,
25:48
Speaker 4: but if that man had been yeah, had been loved,
25:51
Speaker 4: he would have been a power. And I'm like, are
25:53
Speaker 4: you looking right at the camera when you say that?
25:55
Speaker 4: Because that's what it feels like.
25:57
Speaker 2: And also to tell you the point of this movie,
25:59
Speaker 2: so it might as well be me.
26:02
Speaker 3: That's the joke. We're going into what's his name from
26:06
Speaker 3: Simpsons Moving top?
26:10
Speaker 4: Yeah?
26:12
Speaker 2: Uh no?
26:13
Speaker 3: Like okay, so like, And also like when he meets
26:15
Speaker 3: his future wife for the first time and then all
26:18
Speaker 3: of a sudden we see this dissolve to his mother
26:20
Speaker 3: and then a quick dissolved back and I'm like, subtle, Stone,
26:24
Speaker 3: real subtle.
26:25
Speaker 2: He didn't see they hit the nail quite on the
26:27
Speaker 2: head right there, Didty.
26:29
Speaker 3: And And just like it's like with with a far
26:33
Speaker 3: superior bio pic social network. You know, Fincher and God
26:40
Speaker 3: the writer blanket on his day.
26:42
Speaker 2: Oh Sorkin, geez, why I couldn't.
26:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Fincher and Sorkin. They they're just like, Oh,
26:48
Speaker 3: it's because he was dumped by a girl. That's the
26:51
Speaker 3: entire reason why he made Facebook. And you're like Nixon,
26:55
Speaker 3: you know, like he just wanted to be loved by
26:57
Speaker 3: his mother, who talked like she was reading the New
27:00
Speaker 3: King James Bible, you know, like it just.
27:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, the v's and dows were a little much. I mean,
27:04
Speaker 4: I don't know Quaker society, but I was like, okay, it.
27:07
Speaker 2: Seems like a stretch. It seems a little bit like
27:10
Speaker 2: a stretch. But I don't know. I wasn't there.
27:12
Speaker 3: But that's the thing though, that even if it was accurate,
27:15
Speaker 3: don't do it, because it's so distracting that it takes
27:19
Speaker 3: your it takes you out of the moment where you're like, wait,
27:21
Speaker 3: do people do that? And you want to pause it
27:23
Speaker 3: and google it and and see if that's that's actually accurate.
27:28
Speaker 3: But it's just like it's one of those things where
27:31
Speaker 3: it's filmmakers just like go on one thing and like
27:34
Speaker 3: maybe one person they interviewed, or even two people they
27:37
Speaker 3: said they're like, oh, yeah, he had a weird relationship
27:39
Speaker 3: with his mom or something like that, and you're like, boom,
27:41
Speaker 3: that's it, Like that's why he resigned from the presidency
27:44
Speaker 3: his mom. And you're like, oh my god.
27:46
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay.
27:47
Speaker 3: Also on top of that, okay, I know, and I
27:50
Speaker 3: keep keep going, I keep going. But one thing that the.
27:53
Speaker 4: John looks up when you give your in interpretation.
27:57
Speaker 2: The captioning is now reading that Darren is putting up
27:59
Speaker 2: the two victory signs with his hands, much in the
28:03
Speaker 2: style of Nixon. For those not watching this audio format,
28:08
Speaker 2: oh my.
28:08
Speaker 4: God, look at that guy with his air cut.
28:10
Speaker 2: Oh that's crazy.
28:13
Speaker 3: So yeah, so uh it was the resignation. I mean,
28:18
Speaker 3: that's that's huge. That is a monumental piece of American history.
28:23
Speaker 3: Like he was the first president to resign from office
28:27
Speaker 3: in disgrace. And I felt like, Okay, this is gonna
28:31
Speaker 3: be like a big section of the movie. I was like,
28:32
Speaker 3: this is gonna be like the last act of like
28:35
Speaker 3: this like of a three act movie, even though it
28:37
Speaker 3: wasn't three acts, it was more, but like, this is
28:40
Speaker 3: gonna be the last act of the movie. Is gonna
28:42
Speaker 3: be about like him them telling him he needs to
28:44
Speaker 3: resign and then him saying no, but then figuring out
28:47
Speaker 3: and then we go from you need to resign and
28:49
Speaker 3: he goes no, and then he gives the speech and
28:52
Speaker 3: you're like.
28:53
Speaker 4: Whoa what.
28:54
Speaker 3: Oh, We're like, we have three and a half hours
28:57
Speaker 3: to talk about Nixon and we're just gla loossing over that.
29:00
Speaker 3: We're glossing over the end of it.
29:02
Speaker 2: Yeah. Really, maybe maybe he felt the two hours and
29:06
Speaker 2: forty five minutes he said, oh, I got to wrap
29:08
Speaker 2: this up. That's what it felt like. Yeah, I still
29:13
Speaker 2: I'm glombing onto the idea of like who he was
29:15
Speaker 2: to different people, because that whole bit of him going
29:20
Speaker 2: to the Lincoln Memorial is true, that actually happened, and
29:24
Speaker 2: it's I mean, his perspective on how it went down
29:28
Speaker 2: is different than the protester's perspective on how it went down.
29:32
Speaker 2: But they in fact had a very calm discussion with
29:34
Speaker 2: each other, like they didn't.
29:36
Speaker 4: It's probably one of the best scenes of the movie.
29:38
Speaker 4: Like the tension, like not tension, not an evil tension,
29:43
Speaker 4: but like a it's like a kid caught out side
29:46
Speaker 4: after curfew and you're like where is his secret service?
29:50
Speaker 4: And he is like surrounded and then they just have
29:52
Speaker 4: a conversation. I love that scene.
29:55
Speaker 2: It's a great scene and it and it speaks to
29:58
Speaker 2: the idea that Stone just never really got it. Like
30:02
Speaker 2: I mean, Darren, you you said earlier, it's oh my gosh,
30:05
Speaker 2: it's like it was released in two or three movies
30:07
Speaker 2: a year. Maybe if this man, he's just spent another
30:10
Speaker 2: year in development with this, right, you know, like slow
30:12
Speaker 2: down directly.
30:13
Speaker 4: Okay, it's like executive producing at least three movies every
30:16
Speaker 4: year for like the nineties, like The Man was a powerhouse, right, but.
30:20
Speaker 2: But slow it down for a year and say, you
30:22
Speaker 2: know what, this is one that you know might take
30:25
Speaker 2: a little bit longer or even I know that back then,
30:28
Speaker 2: even back then it was tough. But do what Titanic did.
30:32
Speaker 2: Let's say Nixon, you know, okay, Nixon passes right before
30:35
Speaker 2: the film is going to be coming out, don't quickly
30:38
Speaker 2: edit his funeral in say you know what, we're going
30:41
Speaker 2: to delay release for six months if it's respect for
30:43
Speaker 2: his family and you know, all of these sorts of things.
30:46
Speaker 4: Going to be a six month better picture because of it.
30:49
Speaker 2: And then yeah, exactly, it's spend that six months just
30:51
Speaker 2: coming back and refining it and finding out how to
30:54
Speaker 2: put the threads together in editing. But it feels like,
30:57
Speaker 2: I mean, Stone is just rushing to get onto his
31:00
Speaker 2: next project, and it's painful because I think actually with
31:05
Speaker 2: these three movies that you look at, the Doors feels
31:08
Speaker 2: like a movie that doesn't get all of Stone's attention
31:10
Speaker 2: because he's moving on the JFK, and I think that
31:13
Speaker 2: the inverse happens where Nixon doesn't get enough attention because
31:17
Speaker 2: he was paying too much attention to Natural Born Killers, which,
31:20
Speaker 2: as I call it to mind, has a lot of
31:23
Speaker 2: the really for all of the film's flaws, a lot
31:26
Speaker 2: of the camera work and the editing and the way
31:30
Speaker 2: that's put together feels much more like the guy that's
31:34
Speaker 2: in the groove that he finds with the better parts
31:36
Speaker 2: of The Doors. Everything in JFK and then Natural Born
31:40
Speaker 2: Killers feel of they feel of the same spirit. And
31:44
Speaker 2: then Nixon is the one where it's like it's just
31:46
Speaker 2: too linear, just sort of he just runs out of
31:49
Speaker 2: steam and you know, you know, Tristan what he I
31:52
Speaker 2: mean in terms of the editing here, do you see
31:56
Speaker 2: anywhere for him to go back and treat it like JFK,
31:59
Speaker 2: would that have saved it in some way to find
32:01
Speaker 2: a way to compress and expand time is necessary and
32:04
Speaker 2: treat it a little more like uh, you know, putty.
32:08
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like, I mean, I feel like I've
32:10
Speaker 3: kind of made my thoughts known on that where I
32:13
Speaker 3: think this movie might be able to be saved by
32:16
Speaker 3: the edit, but I don't know what exists and what
32:19
Speaker 3: doesn't where I feel like just ditch all the flashbacks
32:23
Speaker 3: or at least like ninety percent of the flashbacks and
32:27
Speaker 3: focus on the white House, you know, like have it
32:29
Speaker 3: all take place in the white House, Like this movie
32:32
Speaker 3: would have made a great stage play where you know,
32:36
Speaker 3: like you have the Oval office as as as the
32:39
Speaker 3: main set, and you can go to the West Wing,
32:42
Speaker 3: you can go to you know, the private residence and
32:44
Speaker 3: everything like that, but like keep it within, keep it
32:47
Speaker 3: within the white House. And it's just it's a conversation based.
32:51
Speaker 3: It's completely conversation based. It doesn't rely on itself of
32:55
Speaker 3: you know, like fast cutting and going back and forth
32:57
Speaker 3: in time and going back in time when you're back
33:00
Speaker 3: time and changing colors and you know, changing film stock
33:03
Speaker 3: and and everything like that, like where it worked with
33:05
Speaker 3: JFK because you have one point that's focusing on. With JFK,
33:10
Speaker 3: it's just like this is it the gun shot? What
33:13
Speaker 3: what are we going to do? How are we going
33:14
Speaker 3: to figure this out? Who do we need to talk to?
33:16
Speaker 3: It's all about that, And so everybody's talking about that.
33:21
Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't matter how far out onto the
33:24
Speaker 3: wings you get, how on the on the raggedy edge,
33:27
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter because it's all related back to that.
33:31
Speaker 3: Like with with what Darren was talking about, how it
33:33
Speaker 3: just kind of washes over you in one year and
33:35
Speaker 3: out the other because you don't know what to focus on.
33:37
Speaker 3: You don't know what they're talking about, Like are we
33:39
Speaker 3: talking about bea pigs or are we Are we talking
33:41
Speaker 3: about the CI screwing up? Are we talking about the
33:44
Speaker 3: FBI wiretaps? Are we are we talking about Kennedy stealing
33:47
Speaker 3: the election? Are we talking about you know, like how
33:49
Speaker 3: much he wants to sleep with his mother? Like what
33:51
Speaker 3: is it? You know, like we don't know, Darren.
33:55
Speaker 2: This is shot again by Robert Richardson. Who we sang
33:59
Speaker 2: the praise of in the previous two movies we were
34:01
Speaker 2: looking at and he shoots this film, and I'm going
34:06
Speaker 2: to be completely honest that I need to know what
34:09
Speaker 2: you thought. Does this look like what you expect a
34:12
Speaker 2: Robert Richardson film look like? Is there impressive photography in
34:16
Speaker 2: this or is it like, is there any different vibe?
34:21
Speaker 2: Did you walk away with it feeling like you would
34:23
Speaker 2: watch something shot by the same guy that just shot
34:26
Speaker 2: the doors and JFK.
34:28
Speaker 4: I mean, it's definitely a lot tamer. I mean probably
34:30
Speaker 4: a lot of that just has to do with the
34:33
Speaker 4: subject matter. I still think the Lincoln Memorial scene is
34:38
Speaker 4: probably the most engaging of shots, the way he looks
34:43
Speaker 4: over his shoulder and then like people kind of come
34:45
Speaker 4: out of nowhere, like he feels like he's all alone,
34:47
Speaker 4: but he's not. And it's just very well constructed. And
34:53
Speaker 4: then we spend a lot of time, you know, in
34:56
Speaker 4: the fireplace room. I will say this, like, if this
34:58
Speaker 4: movie was made ten years later, you would be able
35:00
Speaker 4: to see any of it because we would have entered
35:02
Speaker 4: the era of natural lighting and it would have been
35:06
Speaker 4: dark as all get out. But no, we're still in
35:09
Speaker 4: ninety five. We still put a fake key light in
35:11
Speaker 4: every room, and I don't care because I want to
35:13
Speaker 4: be able to see my movie and enjoy, you know,
35:16
Speaker 4: even if he's lit by firelight. I want to be
35:18
Speaker 4: able to tell where Nixon is doing. He's fumbling with
35:21
Speaker 4: the tape deck.
35:22
Speaker 2: I'm I'm glad you mentioned the firelight. I mean, I
35:25
Speaker 2: have some thoughts about it. But what do you think
35:28
Speaker 2: Stone was trying to say by showing him in a
35:30
Speaker 2: room with a roaring fire and the AC cranked up
35:33
Speaker 2: and blowing on.
35:34
Speaker 4: Him, He's trying to say, well, sorry, I'll answer for me.
35:37
Speaker 4: I think he's trying to say he is tempted to
35:39
Speaker 4: throw the tapes in the fire. It's very clear, like,
35:42
Speaker 4: why would you have a fire when you're listening to
35:45
Speaker 4: confidential tapes with the AC on. It's not for the weather,
35:49
Speaker 4: it's because you might just put those tapes in the flame.
35:53
Speaker 4: That's how it seemed like to me.
35:55
Speaker 2: You have the same read Tristan.
35:57
Speaker 3: No, I didn't actually read that at all. I'm not
35:59
Speaker 3: saying that's at all. I'm saying that's wrong at all,
36:02
Speaker 3: but I didn't gather that. To me, it felt like
36:06
Speaker 3: one of those idiosyncrasies that you hear about or read
36:10
Speaker 3: about that Stone wanted to include. That's what I thought
36:12
Speaker 3: of first. It's just kind of like Reagan and jelly beans,
36:15
Speaker 3: you know, where you know, like, oh, Nixon loved you know,
36:18
Speaker 3: like sitting next to a fire, but he hated the heat,
36:21
Speaker 3: you know, like or something like that. That's what I
36:23
Speaker 3: took it as. So I didn't even read into it
36:25
Speaker 3: except like, oh, maybe somebody said he did that.
36:27
Speaker 2: See, I took it. And the thing is, this speaks
36:30
Speaker 2: to some of the better aspects of the film, Like
36:33
Speaker 2: there's still Oliver Stone at work here, there's still Robert
36:35
Speaker 2: Richardson here, there's still people here who we know how
36:39
Speaker 2: to technically make incredible art. And I took those moments
36:44
Speaker 2: where they showed the fire going and Darren totally hear
36:49
Speaker 2: what you're saying. I agree, Trisian, hear what you're saying,
36:52
Speaker 2: and I agree with that as well. But my read
36:55
Speaker 2: that I took into it was that Nixon was a
36:57
Speaker 2: person who didn't have any gray. He existed between extremes.
37:02
Speaker 2: He was either too hot or too cold, and he
37:05
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out how to be just warm. But the
37:10
Speaker 2: thing is, that's I'm glad we got to that, because
37:14
Speaker 2: that's one of those things where even in a movie
37:15
Speaker 2: where we don't enjoy, when you have skilled crafts people
37:20
Speaker 2: working on it, you can still catch on to certain
37:23
Speaker 2: things and say, oh, well, okay, that's interesting, and then
37:26
Speaker 2: three people can walk away with different reads and all
37:28
Speaker 2: of us can see what the other person is saying. Now,
37:32
Speaker 2: I'll use that to go into the music, which we
37:34
Speaker 2: have John Williams coming back, and I have some observations
37:38
Speaker 2: about the music, but no I took, you know what.
37:45
Speaker 2: I'm glad you call that out because what I took
37:47
Speaker 2: was I will I will most likely revisit this soundtrack
37:51
Speaker 2: and then do some Q matching with episode three, But
37:55
Speaker 2: I think again, because of Lucas constantly referring to the
37:57
Speaker 2: Emperor as Richard Nixon, there are more moments when he's
38:01
Speaker 2: giving a speech or something like. There was one specific
38:03
Speaker 2: moment where the music sounded like a tamer version of
38:08
Speaker 2: the music when the Emperor assumes power in episode three,
38:11
Speaker 2: and it's a cute. It jumped out at me and
38:14
Speaker 2: I said, oh my gosh, this sounds that has to
38:18
Speaker 2: be on purpose. Darren, did you pick up on any cues?
38:20
Speaker 2: Was there a vibe to this.
38:22
Speaker 4: Well, I mean chronologically in ninety five, we're, oh, decade
38:28
Speaker 4: before episode three, we are come out, but we are.
38:31
Speaker 2: But Williams could have very easily quoted this.
38:34
Speaker 4: He could have gone reference himself. I definitely understand that, honestly.
38:38
Speaker 4: With this score. For me, it felt like there was
38:40
Speaker 4: barely any music in this movie at all. And maybe
38:44
Speaker 4: that's just how it picked up to me, like it
38:46
Speaker 4: would pop up here and there, maybe because I was
38:50
Speaker 4: trudging through it. But I couldn't recite two beats to you.
38:55
Speaker 4: I could. I can't remember a single motif from this
38:58
Speaker 4: entire movie, blanking it. It's going out the other year.
39:01
Speaker 2: Sorry, guys.
39:03
Speaker 4: Well we're looking at you know, the credits and like,
39:06
Speaker 4: oh it's it's John Williams. Like I almost surprised me
39:09
Speaker 4: because it didn't grab me, like I was expecting a
39:13
Speaker 4: ninety five Williams score two like two years prior as
39:17
Speaker 4: Jurassic Park, and it's like, you know, melting my face
39:19
Speaker 4: off with motifs and dinosaurs.
39:23
Speaker 2: Well, he definitely quotes his own JFK score at a
39:26
Speaker 2: certain point. True and Tristan, outside of quoting JFK and
39:31
Speaker 2: Star Wars similarities one way in the other was there
39:35
Speaker 2: anything stand out about the score for you.
39:37
Speaker 3: Uh, just with Williams, there's so oftentimes when you know,
39:42
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, is this the Harry Potter theme?
39:45
Speaker 2: No?
39:45
Speaker 3: Is this the Superman theme?
39:47
Speaker 4: No?
39:47
Speaker 2: Is this?
39:48
Speaker 3: Is this the Star Wars main title?
39:49
Speaker 1: No?
39:50
Speaker 3: Is this from a New Hope?
39:51
Speaker 4: No?
39:51
Speaker 3: Dang is this from Close Encounters?
39:53
Speaker 1: No?
39:53
Speaker 2: You know, like there's so.
39:54
Speaker 3: Many times when Williams repeats himself and the guy's in
39:57
Speaker 3: his nineties, you know, like there's like lots of his
40:03
Speaker 3: themes can sound very similar to the point where like
40:06
Speaker 3: I will often.
40:07
Speaker 4: Has a Williams sound, he has a Williams sound.
40:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely that's there.
40:12
Speaker 3: And so beyond just me listening and thinking of other
40:16
Speaker 3: Williams movies not much as memorable. I couldn't like, I
40:20
Speaker 3: couldn't hum a few bars for you, other than realizing that,
40:23
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, they're referencing the JFK score.
40:25
Speaker 2: That's neat. So you know this is not a terribly
40:31
Speaker 2: successful score. That's fair enough. There are parts that don't
40:33
Speaker 2: come together, and it seems that you know, and Darren
40:38
Speaker 2: take us through, like this movie undoubtedly cost money to make, Yes,
40:43
Speaker 2: how much? And so how much should they spend to
40:45
Speaker 2: make JFK. Not including the marketing and how much did
40:48
Speaker 2: they make back at the box office?
40:51
Speaker 4: Not The numbers aren't looking good, guys. This was a
40:54
Speaker 4: forty four million budget, which forty four mili in ninety
40:57
Speaker 4: five is still a chunk of money. It made just
41:01
Speaker 4: under fourteen million in US and Canada. This movie did
41:07
Speaker 4: not see that's like a quarter. It made a quarter
41:13
Speaker 4: of his budget back.
41:14
Speaker 3: At least they got some Oscar noms out of it,
41:16
Speaker 3: but it didn't get any wins.
41:17
Speaker 2: And it shows what we know because Best Original Score
41:21
Speaker 2: was one of those nominations, which was puzzling. I now
41:25
Speaker 2: I want to like go back and listen to it.
41:26
Speaker 4: It seems yeah, it's.
41:28
Speaker 3: Really That's when the Academy sees William's name and they go, oh.
41:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, explain to me. Explain to me how it
41:35
Speaker 2: gets nominated for Best Original Screenplay because I don't see
41:39
Speaker 2: I don't get any sense of a screenplay here where
41:42
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, this is the one. We're gonna make
41:44
Speaker 2: a fortune on this movie and win tons of awards.
41:47
Speaker 2: Like there's like, I don't is there something I'm not saying,
41:50
Speaker 2: like and now I want to read the screenplay because
41:52
Speaker 2: I'm like did Stone just like goof in the editing
41:54
Speaker 2: or something like.
41:55
Speaker 3: That's what I'm wondering, is like maybe he just completely
41:57
Speaker 3: rewrote it in editing. But what you know, one thing
41:59
Speaker 3: that we have not talked about, which is insane is
42:03
Speaker 3: Anthony Hopkins playing Nixon.
42:05
Speaker 2: Yeah he got, he got accolades for it, he got,
42:08
Speaker 2: he got. Anybody else noticed that?
42:11
Speaker 3: As the movie went on, we started hearing Hopkins voice
42:14
Speaker 3: more and more like he was getting exhausting. I'm sorry exhausted.
42:19
Speaker 2: No, no, you said it right the first time.
42:21
Speaker 3: Both both is right?
42:22
Speaker 2: Yeah? Both both is right? Yeah? Both right?
42:25
Speaker 4: Well yeah you have you have that. But also, I
42:28
Speaker 4: mean I'm looking at the accolades for the nominations as well.
42:32
Speaker 4: And let's we have to talk about Joan Allen as
42:35
Speaker 4: Asu almost Nancy Reagan not this is the same first lady, Yes,
42:40
Speaker 4: Pat Nixon buddy again, also stealing every scene she's in,
42:45
Speaker 4: Like that was a more interesting character to watch the
42:49
Speaker 4: Nixon himself for a lot of the time, really, like
42:53
Speaker 4: because at least she had a bit of a bead
42:55
Speaker 4: on like what she was trying to do. And like
42:59
Speaker 4: the scene we're she takes him back after he goes
43:01
Speaker 4: back into politics. I was like, is she going to
43:04
Speaker 4: take it back? I was unsure about it, Like the
43:07
Speaker 4: way she was acting was strong enough. I mean, I'm like,
43:11
Speaker 4: I'm assuming so because I can't imagine America voting in
43:14
Speaker 4: a divorced president but you know, in the seventies. But yeah,
43:20
Speaker 4: I think she was great in this.
43:23
Speaker 2: So Hopkins I didn't. I didn't find anything particularly wonderful
43:30
Speaker 2: about the performance, but I'll lay that at Stone's feet
43:33
Speaker 2: because of the way the film is structured and how
43:35
Speaker 2: exhausted I was by the time we got to the end.
43:38
Speaker 2: It felt more like he was indicating somebody like, let's
43:41
Speaker 2: take a look at Val Kilmer playing that perceived figure
43:46
Speaker 2: of Jim Morrison. I lost Kilmer many times in that.
43:50
Speaker 2: I love Kilmer's performance in that film. I never really
43:54
Speaker 2: lost Hopkins here. Hopkins was there. There are a couple
43:58
Speaker 2: of standout scenes, like.
43:59
Speaker 4: The scenes I wouldn't say a hundred percent ever lost there.
44:05
Speaker 4: But then he would be like, oh, I'm watching a biopic, like,
44:08
Speaker 4: well there's.
44:09
Speaker 2: I think I think that Hopkins was, for lack of
44:13
Speaker 2: a better term, he was the sexy choice at the time.
44:16
Speaker 2: I think that he wasn't the best choice necessarily who
44:20
Speaker 2: was don't know, honestly, don't know.
44:21
Speaker 3: Apparently the Stone offered it to a lot of different people.
44:25
Speaker 3: Warren Beatty and I think Nicholson, Jack Nicholson were his
44:28
Speaker 3: top two choices, and those would have been very different movies.
44:31
Speaker 2: Those would have been very, very different movies. I think
44:34
Speaker 2: that it would have been interesting to see somebody else.
44:37
Speaker 2: I agree with praising Joe Allen. I think she definitely
44:40
Speaker 2: had a sense of character or who she was, and
44:43
Speaker 2: there's a definite sense of, you know, in arc with her.
44:47
Speaker 2: But what I come back to is, according to the
44:49
Speaker 2: Wikipedia page, the Esteemed magazine Entertainment Weekly ranked Nixon number
44:55
Speaker 2: forty on their list of the fifty best biopicks. Ever,
45:00
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've seen fifty biopics total.
45:04
Speaker 4: It's not quite a category. I'm chopping at the bit.
45:08
Speaker 2: But I feel like I probably know more than forty
45:12
Speaker 2: nine others that I would have enjoyed more than Nixon,
45:16
Speaker 2: including including The Doors obviously, but you know, brass tacks.
45:22
Speaker 2: Here we are rounding third. I think we've all been
45:25
Speaker 2: pretty clear about the shortcomings of the film and the
45:27
Speaker 2: few things that worked for it, and we're here at
45:30
Speaker 2: the Lance Reddick section where by tuning in for the
45:34
Speaker 2: first time, we take lance Reddick in in honor of
45:37
Speaker 2: that tremendous actor's memory, we find a role for lance
45:41
Speaker 2: Reddick within the broader context of the film. We recast
45:45
Speaker 2: him in. It's no reflection on an actor or actress
45:48
Speaker 2: that is in the film, but we put lance Reddick
45:51
Speaker 2: in there. So Darren, I'll give it to you first.
45:54
Speaker 2: Where do you see lance Reddick in this? Where would
45:56
Speaker 2: you drop him in?
45:58
Speaker 4: I would put him as the remember that the character's name,
46:04
Speaker 4: but the head of CIA, because he gets that monologue
46:08
Speaker 4: when Nixon goes to visit his his his office and
46:13
Speaker 4: kind of spell out like if I'm going down, You're
46:16
Speaker 4: going down, Like basically I know I'm untouchable, and I'm
46:19
Speaker 4: basically going to openly blackmail you as we have this conversation.
46:22
Speaker 4: And I would have loved to see that portrayed with
46:26
Speaker 4: his delivery. I think that would have been great.
46:29
Speaker 2: I like that choice. I like it a lot. Tristan,
46:32
Speaker 2: where do you see mister ring again?
46:34
Speaker 3: You know, like, as we were talking about, this takes
46:36
Speaker 3: away nothing from from what the individual who were replacing
46:40
Speaker 3: has done, but I would have I think he would
46:42
Speaker 3: have killed it as hr Haldeman. I think like James
46:46
Speaker 3: wood did a fantastic job and stole the scene everything
46:48
Speaker 3: that it was in my backup guess, but I truly
46:51
Speaker 3: believe that Reddick could be that person who was there
46:55
Speaker 3: to protect the president but also knew what he was doing.
46:57
Speaker 3: Like I love those scenes or that scene should say,
47:00
Speaker 3: between JT. Walsh and James wood Woods when they had
47:05
Speaker 3: a very honest conversation about quote unquote the old Man.
47:09
Speaker 3: You can tell that Woods was or Haldeman was pragmatic
47:14
Speaker 3: about the president while still supporting the president, and I
47:18
Speaker 3: think Reddick would be able to walk that line as well.
47:22
Speaker 2: Interesting we all wind up with a different, different role,
47:26
Speaker 2: because I would have given him the role of John Dean,
47:31
Speaker 2: the White House counsel who goes to testify in front
47:34
Speaker 2: of Congress. I would have bought him in that role
47:37
Speaker 2: very much. I think he could have could have carried Peers,
47:40
Speaker 2: David Hyde Peers, yes, okay, yeah, And I thought Pierce
47:43
Speaker 2: did a fine job. Obviously usual qualifiers and everything, but
47:47
Speaker 2: I could I could see Reddick giving the air of
47:50
Speaker 2: somebody who's just unable to go through with his mission
47:54
Speaker 2: statement of yeah, just just lie as much as your lawyer.
47:58
Speaker 2: You don't need to tell the truth. This attorney client
48:00
Speaker 2: privilege right here, and the lawyer saying, eh, I don't
48:04
Speaker 2: know if it really works that way. I could see
48:06
Speaker 2: Reddick pulling that roll off.
48:08
Speaker 4: A scene where he's like, you want me to write
48:11
Speaker 4: this all down with my signature below it, like that scene.
48:14
Speaker 2: Oh that would be Yeah, that's so such a fascinating thing.
48:21
Speaker 2: I want you to frame yourself. Okay, all right, thanks.
48:24
Speaker 4: Please give me the evidence. I don't know it's like that.
48:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, she let me put that together for you.
48:32
Speaker 4: Cut to scene of giving testimony in the inquiry committee.
48:37
Speaker 2: Well, here we are. Then, we've gone through our thoughts,
48:40
Speaker 2: We've gone through Lance Reddick's role in here. We're coming
48:44
Speaker 2: to our ratings. Gentlemen, Uh, do you exonerate the film
48:50
Speaker 2: Nixon with a high rating or do you convict it
48:53
Speaker 2: to lowis of the Lows with a lower rating? Tristan,
48:57
Speaker 2: we will start with you.
48:59
Speaker 3: I don't need to go in to a lengthy explanation.
49:01
Speaker 3: I feel like I've explained myself pretty well from the beginning.
49:04
Speaker 3: None of us were being coy, none of us were
49:07
Speaker 3: trying to hide our true feelings. I give this two stars,
49:10
Speaker 3: two stars, I think is a bad film. Two and
49:12
Speaker 3: a half is a mediocre film. This is a bad film.
49:14
Speaker 3: There's a reason why people still talk about JFK, even
49:18
Speaker 3: though I had my issues with JFK. There's a reason
49:20
Speaker 3: why people talk about JFK and they don't talk about Nixon,
49:24
Speaker 3: all the reasons that we talked about, all the reasons
49:26
Speaker 3: that we discussed. I don't care how many critics or
49:29
Speaker 3: reviewers said it was riveting. It's a mess. It's just
49:33
Speaker 3: an absolute mess.
49:34
Speaker 2: You misread it. They meant you had to be riveted
49:37
Speaker 2: to your seat, not to leave before the film is over.
49:40
Speaker 3: I need to read better.
49:42
Speaker 2: The money.
49:42
Speaker 4: If we made a D box version of Nixon, so
49:46
Speaker 4: you're shaking in your chair at every pivotal moment, then
49:50
Speaker 4: you might a lyas stay awake.
49:51
Speaker 2: That would be something that would be something I really
49:56
Speaker 2: struggle because there's a part of me that wants to
50:00
Speaker 2: give this a one, but won't because one is a
50:05
Speaker 2: much lower rating than this film warrants. Because there's at
50:10
Speaker 2: least there are scenes where like if you picked that
50:13
Speaker 2: scene out and showed it to somebody, they would say,
50:16
Speaker 2: oh no, let me watch it. You can't be right
50:19
Speaker 2: and then they would watch it and find out I
50:20
Speaker 2: was so, I too, will end with two stars, and Darren,
50:24
Speaker 2: that kicks it off to you. How many stars do
50:27
Speaker 2: you give Nixon?
50:29
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm also going to give it two stars. I think,
50:33
Speaker 4: like you said, John, it's not a one. That would
50:35
Speaker 4: mean everybody failed in the making of this movie. And
50:38
Speaker 4: that's not true. We had a great discussion just last
50:41
Speaker 4: hour about a lot of great performances and a lot
50:46
Speaker 4: of you know, just fire light. I guess we talked
50:49
Speaker 4: about that quite a bit. But it's just the some
50:52
Speaker 4: of the parts did not come together. And yeah, it's
50:57
Speaker 4: not memorable, not enough to to rewatch really, and it's
51:02
Speaker 4: really long. It's a long movie. It did not But
51:05
Speaker 4: like you said, justin, I don't know where the ninety
51:08
Speaker 4: minute heart of it is. I think you'd get a
51:10
Speaker 4: whole different beast if you tried to cut it down.
51:13
Speaker 4: It's so, it's just kind of is what it.
51:16
Speaker 2: Is, well, speaking of is what it is. We're going
51:20
Speaker 2: to be moving on to another historical biopic, this one
51:23
Speaker 2: going even further into the past. We've been in the sixties,
51:27
Speaker 2: We've been mired in the sixties and seventies with Ali
51:30
Speaker 2: our Stone up to this point, but I think we're
51:32
Speaker 2: going a wee bit earlier with our next choice, Darren.
51:35
Speaker 2: What are we going to be looking at next week?
51:38
Speaker 4: Well, for short films, just kidding, We're going to two
51:41
Speaker 4: thousand and four as Alexander as we round out our
51:45
Speaker 4: Oliver Stone biopicks. Here on, house
51:48
Speaker 1: Lights, Join the Revolution, Join the net Party.