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Camille Bell: A Mother's Crusade for Justice · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Imagine looking at this massive, complicated puzzle that everyone around
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: you insists is completely solved. Right. Like the pieces are
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: glued down. It's framed. It's hanging right there on the
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: wall of history. And there's even this little brass plaque
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: on it that says, you know, case closed.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Right. It's totally finalized.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Exactly. But then you get up close to the glass
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: and you start really looking and you realize half the
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: pieces are jammed into the wrong spaces.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Forced in. Yeah.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: The colors don't match. The edges are all jagged. And
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the people who actually lived inside that picture are standing
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: right next to you pointing at the frame saying, That
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: is not what happened.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: That dissonance between official history and lived reality is just
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: incredibly disorienting.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: It really is.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Because you're touching on this really fundamental flaw in how
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: we consume historical narratives. We prefer the neat, tied-up ending.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, totally. We want the bow on top.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Right. A monster is caught, a city heals, and then
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: the credits roll. We don't like the messy stuff.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Well, we're pulling that frame off the wall today because
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the story of the Atlanta child murders, which was this
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: absolute reign of terror between 1979 and 1981, it is
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: almost always told through the lens of law enforcement, right?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. FBI profilers, the task force.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Exactly. And the eventual capture of Wayne Williams. But there's
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: this incredibly powerful piece by Natasha Ishak for all that's interesting,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: and it's titled How Camille Bell Fought for the Victims
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: of the Atlanta Child Murders. And it entirely flips the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: camera angle.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: It really does. It's a completely different perspective.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: So that's our mission for this deep dive. we are
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: jumping into this single, highly potent source to look at
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the actual architect of the investigation itself. Because if you
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: think you know the story, you likely only know the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: ending that the institutions want you to know.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Today, we are looking at the grieving mother who essentially
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: took a battering ram to an apathetic power structure, forced
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: them to recognize a serial killer, and, I mean, in
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: doing so, she changed the DNA of grassroots community defense forever.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: She really did. And to understand the magnitude of what
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: she built, we have to strip away all those assumptions
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: of who a quote-unquote grieving mother is expected to be
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: in the public eye.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Right, because there's a stereotype, isn't there?
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Historically, the media casts victims' families as these very
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: passive figures, you know, weeping on camera, pleading for help,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: just entirely dependent on the police to act as their saviors.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Right, waiting for the heroes to step in.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: But Camille Bell structurally rejected that role. So let's unpack this. Okay.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Let's look at why she rejected it by looking at
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: who she was before the tragedy even happened. Because her resume,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, it reads like a blueprint for a revolutionary.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: It's so impressive.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Right. She was born in Philadelphia in 1947 into an
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: environment that was just steeped in analytical thinking. Her father
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: was an engineer.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And her mother was a high school science teacher, which,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: you know, that isn't just trivia.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: This is a household where the baseline for approaching the
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: world involves creativity. Constantly asking, how does this work? And
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: why does the system operate this way?
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: She internalized that framework deeply. Yeah. I mean, she became
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: a national merit scholar. And she attended Morristown College in Tennessee.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Which is huge.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: It is. But the crucial inflection point in her development
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: isn't just academic. It's her migration to Atlanta and her
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: subsequent involvement with SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Okay.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I want to pause on SNCC for a second because
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: it's really easy to just drop that acronym and gloss
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: over it as like standard civil rights history.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Right. Just another organization. Yeah.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: But if you look at the actual mechanics of SNCC,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: it was the absolute crucible of grassroots agitation.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Unlike some of the other organizations that relied on, you know,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: top-down charismatic leadership to negotiate with politicians in closed rooms,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: SNCC was about going into the most Hostile, entrenched environments
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: in the Jim Crow South and building power from the
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: dirt up.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Right. They operated on Ella Baker's philosophy of participatory democracy.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: SNCC organizers were trained to canvas neighborhoods, sit on porches,
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  Speaker 2: identify the quiet grievances of the community, and turn that
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: latent frustration into organized, disruptive action.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: They were the ones on the ground.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: They were. They orchestrated sit-ins. They coordinated the Freedom Rides.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: They ran voter registration drives and counties were doing that
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: could literally get you killed.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Literally killed. Yeah.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: So when you were trained in that specific environment, you
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: learn very quickly how to identify the pressure points of
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: a hostile bureaucracy. You learn how to make an institution
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: so profoundly uncomfortable that it basically has no choice but
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: to negotiate.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I love that. She is essentially getting a master's degree
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: in systemic disruption. Yes. But then life takes a pretty
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: sharp turn away from that high level organizing. She marries
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: John Bell in 1967. They have four kids. And they're
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: married for 11 years, but eventually the marriage ends.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And she finds herself in a position that strips away
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: all the philosophical theory of activism and replaces it with
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: brutal everyday economic reality.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Which is such a massive shift. It is.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Her youngest daughter, Cece, is experiencing some specific challenges, which
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: forces Camille to leave a steady job just to manage
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the intensive care requirements at home.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Indeed. That transition from a systemic organizer to a single
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: mother of four in late 70s Atlanta, it is just jarring.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: I can't even imagine.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: The safety net was practically non-existent. So to bridge the
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: gap in child support and simply keep her family afloat,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: she starts selling cosmetics and cleaning products to her neighbors.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Just hustling, basically.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And think about the pure psychological endurance required for that hustle.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Selling door to door or within a really tightly knit community,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: it's a constant exercise in reading human behavior.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, completely.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: You have to learn how to open a conversation, how
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: to quickly assess what a person values, how to handle
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: rejection without internalizing it, and just how to persuade people.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: It's an incredible skill set.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: So when you layer the intellect of a national merit scholar,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: the tactical blueprint of a SNCC organizer, and the street-level
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: grit of a single mother hustling to feed four kids,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: you do not have a passive citizen. You have someone
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: entirely self-reliant. She wasn't just a random citizen. She was
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: like a dormant volcano of organizing potential, just waiting for
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: a devastating catalyst.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: That's a great analogy. She'd been completely stripped of the
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: illusion that any system was going to swoop in and
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: rescue her.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Right. No one's coming to save you.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That kind of pressure, being a single mother of
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: four in that era, it forges a highly specific type
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of armor. You learn to rely on your own networks,
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: your own intuition, and your own voice.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Which is what makes the collision of her life and
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: the horrific events of October 21st, 1979 just so pivotal.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: This is the day all that theoretical armor is put
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: to the ultimate worst possible test.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: It's a Sunday. Her nine-year-old son Yusuf steps out of
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the house and he isn't going out to play or,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: you know, get into trouble. He is walking to the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: local store to buy household supplies for an elderly neighbor
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: who needed some help.
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  Speaker 2: That juxtaposition right there is just searing.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: It really is.
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  Speaker 2: A child performing an act of pure civic kindness, stepping
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: into the familiar fabric of his own neighborhood, and simply
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: vanishing into thin air.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: The absolute banality of the setting makes the horror so
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: much sharper.
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  Speaker 1: He disappears. And for 18 days, the family is just
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: plunged into a void. I really want to try to
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: unpack the specific torture of those 18 days for anyone listening.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Please do.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Because we often talk about grief, right? But an unsolved
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: disappearance isn't grief. Grief has a shape. Grief has an ending.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: This is something else entirely. It is.
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  Speaker 2: Psychologists actually refer to it as ambiguous loss.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Ambiguous loss. Okay.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, and it is arguably the most traumatic psychological
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: state a human being can endure.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: Because when a person dies, the brain initiates a mourning process.
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  Speaker 2: There are rituals, funerals, burials, things that signal to your
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: nervous system that the threat is over and the healing
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  Speaker 2: can begin.
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  Speaker 1: Right, there's a finality to it.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Exactly. But in a disappearance, the brain cannot process the
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: loss because there is no biological proof of finality. You
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: are trapped in a perpetual loop of high alert terror.
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  Speaker 1: Constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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  Speaker 2: Cortisol is flooding your system every single time the phone
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  Speaker 2: rings or every time a car drives past the window.
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  Speaker 2: You are oscillating between the most desperate, bargaining hope and
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the darkest, most paralyzing dread minute by minute for 18
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  Speaker 2: straight days.
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  Speaker 1: I just, I can't even fathom that level of psychological torture.
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  Speaker 1: But then, on November 8th, that loop snaps. Yusuf's body
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: is discovered in the crawlspace of an abandoned school building
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: near the Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. The cause of death is strangulation,
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: but the source material highlights this detail that completely short-circuits
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: any rational understanding of a murder. His clothing had been washed.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: It is a profoundly chilling element. It really is. When
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: we analyze criminal behavior... A frenzied, opportunistic killer leaves chaos
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: in their wake. They discard the victim and they flee.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Right. They panic.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Taking the time, the physical space, and the calculated risk
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: to launder a murdered nine-year-old's clothing, it indicates something entirely different.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Wait, is it forensic? Like, are they just wiping away evidence?
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Well, it functions as a forensic countermeasure, certainly. It destroys hair, fiber, blood,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: and seminal evidence. But it also speaks to a twisted
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: ritualistic pathology.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: God, that's disturbing.
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  Speaker 2: Washing a victim's clothes implies this strange domestic intimacy wrapped
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: around an act of ultimate violence. It tells us the
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: perpetrator wasn't just acting on a split-second impulse. They had
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: a methodology, and they had the psychological composure to execute
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: it post-murder.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: The psychological composure is what's so terrifying.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: But what happens next with the city of Atlanta is
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: honestly in its own way equally terrifying. Yusuf is found.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: A nine-year-old boy strangled with freshly laundered clothes in an
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: abandoned school. The police conduct an initial investigation. They turn
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: up no immediate leads. And then the public interest just dissipates.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: The city just goes back to business as usual.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: It's hard to believe.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I genuinely struggle to comprehend the mechanism of that apathy.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: How does public interest just fade when a nine-year-old is
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: found strangled in a school. Why didn't this stop the
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: city in its tracks?
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: We have to look at the sociopolitical ecosystem of Atlanta
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: at the time and really the deeply ingrained systemic devaluation
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: of marginalized lives.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: When violence occurs in affluent, predominantly white neighborhoods, the institutional
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: response is treated as an urgent anomaly.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Like it's a huge crisis.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. It is framed as an invasion of a
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: safe space, which prompts media saturation and massive police deployment.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: But here?
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: However, when violence occurs in poor, predominantly Black neighborhoods, institutions
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: often implicitly frame it as a tragic inevitability. The environment
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: has already been written off as dangerous, so the loss
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: of life is sort of compartmentalized.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: They just expect it. Right.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: The media doesn't set up satellite trucks. The police don't
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: launch sweeping dragnets.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: It's a total failure of the social contract. Your child
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: is murdered, which is the primary trauma. Then you look
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: out your window and the city is telling you, through
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: its silence, that your child's life did not have enough
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: currency to even disrupt the daily commute.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: That secondary trauma, that betrayal by society, I feel like
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: that would break almost anyone.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: For many, it does. It results in a retreat into
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: private mourning.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Which makes sense.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: And honestly, the system relies on that retreat to avoid accountability.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: Ah, I see.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: But the institutions of Atlanta did not account for the
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: SNC training of Camille Bell.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: No, they didn't. She takes that rage and she networks it.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: She starts seeking out other mothers in the city who
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: are living the exact same nightmare. Right. Women whose young
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: children had also been inexplicably murdered or had vanished, and
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: they form a support group. But honestly, calling it a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: support group almost does it a disservice.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I agree. It functioned much more like a shadow intelligence agency.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. It's actually a brilliant piece of decentralized detective work.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: These women are sitting in living rooms, ostensibly to comfort
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: each other, but they are laying out the data points
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the police absolutely refuse to connect.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: They're building the profile themselves.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: They realize all their missing children share a demographic profile.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: They are young, they are highly intelligent, they are independent,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: and they are Black. They are seeing the geographic clusters.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: They are identifying the hunting grounds of a serial predator.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: And simultaneously... They are identifying the deliberate negligence of the police.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: What's fascinating here is Camille noted that none of these
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: mothers were receiving follow-up calls.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Wait, really?
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yes. The detectives were completely ghosting them.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: That is insane.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: The foundational step of any homicide investigation, maintaining contact with
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: the victim's family to shake loose new memories or connections,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: it was simply not happening.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: It's bureaucratic gaslighting. How does a grieving parent process the
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: police literally ghosting them while a predator is on the loose?
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: It forces them to take matters into their own hands.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So Camille bypasses the detectives entirely. She goes straight to
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the top, confronting Public Safety Commissioner Lee Brown. She lays
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: out the pattern, pointing out that by this time, eight
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: children are dead or missing under highly suspicious linked circumstances.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Eight children.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Eight. She demands that the investigation be escalated. And Commissioner
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Brown's response is one of the most staggering things I've
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: ever read. He tells her he doesn't want to escalate
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: the investigation because he, quote, didn't want to alarm everyone.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: We really need to dissect the anatomy of that statement
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: because it reveals the exact priority hierarchy of a threatened institution.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: A public safety official is presented with compelling evidence of
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: a serial threat to children. His immediate instinct is not
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: to neutralize the threat, but to neutralize the public's awareness
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: of the threat.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: He just wants to keep it quiet.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: He is calculating that the political fallout of a panicked city,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: the damage to Atlanta's reputation, the demands for resources, the
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: scrutiny on his department, all of that is a larger
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: operational headache than the actual ongoing abduction of marginalized youth.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: He's trying to manage the PR of the crisis rather
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: than the crisis itself.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Precisely.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: He is essentially telling a mother whose nine-year-old was strangled
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: that her demand for survival is too inconvenient for the
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: city's mood.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: It is the ultimate manifestation of institutional silence. And by
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: refusing to connect the dots publicly, the police department left
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: the community completely blind to the fact that they were
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: being hunted.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: They didn't even know.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Parents didn't know to tighten curfews. Kids didn't know
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: to walk in groups. The silence enabled the predator.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: And by August of 1980, the catastrophic failure of that
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: silence is just undeniable. The body count climbs to 12.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Twelve children kidnapped and murdered.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: That's horrific.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: And this total now includes a 13-year-old boy named Clifford Jones,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: who wasn't even a local. He was visiting Atlanta from Cleveland.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: At this point, Camille Bell pivots from demanding the system
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: work to basically forcing the system into a chokehold.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: This is where we see that crucial transition from passive
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: victimhood to aggressive tactical mobilization. Right.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: She and seven other mothers officially incorporate. They form the
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Committee to Stop Children's Murders, and they install Camille as
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: the chair. Their objective is to bypass the police department's
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: PR blockade and galvanize the actual residents of the city.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Which is a huge undertaking.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Here's where it gets really interesting, though. Her method for
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: doing this is a stroke of absolute genius. Let me
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: read her quote from the source material.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Go ahead.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: She said, We were encouraging people to get to know
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: their neighbors. We were encouraging the busybodies to go back
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: to dipping into everybody's business. We were saying that if
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you tolerated crime in your neighborhood, you were asking for trouble.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: The reframing happening in that statement is masterful sociological engineering.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Right. Because usually a busybody is a bad thing.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Every neighborhood has busybodies, with people looking through the blinds,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: tracking who is walking down the street, noticing who shouldn't
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: be parked on the corner.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: The neighborhood watched before it was official.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Usually this is viewed as a nuisance, like a violation
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: of privacy. But Camille Bell took that exact behavior and
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: weaponized it for community defense.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: She essentially crowdsourced a surveillance network long before the internet,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: turning neighborhood gossip into a defensive shield. She told the
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: people peering out their windows, you aren't being nosy. You
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: are the frontline defense of our children.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: In sociology, there's this concept called informal social control.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, what's that?
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It's the idea that a community regulates itself, not through
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: police presence, but through the subtle, constant observation and intervention
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: of its own residents.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, that makes total sense.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: When Jane Jacobs wrote about eyes on the street making
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: neighborhoods safe, this is exactly what she meant. In the
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: complete absence of formal police protection, Camille activated the neighborhood's
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: dormant immune system.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I love that phrasing.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: She gave an ignored population immense agency, basically deputizing them
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: to protect their own borders.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Just think about the sheer willpower and the physical stamina
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: required to execute this. You are carrying the psychic weight
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: of a murdered child. Most people would retreat into total darkness.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: But she is standing under fluorescent lights in community center basements,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: printing flyers, organizing patrols, and turning her grief into a
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: political battering ram. She is shouting so loudly that the
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: institutions can no longer pretend they don't hear her.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: And that noise eventually breaches the local containment zone. The
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: committee strategically aligns with heavy political artillery. They recruit Dr.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Joseph E. Lowry. Oh, wow. Yeah, the president of the
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the SCLC.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Bringing in the SCLC changes the entire geometry of the fight.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: It completely shifts the power dynamic.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Because you aren't just dealing with angry local mothers anymore.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: You are dealing with the vanguard of the national civil
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: rights movement. And Dr. Lowry distills the crisis into this brilliant,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: terrifying soundbite. He says, someone is killing our future and
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: someone out there knows who it is.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: It's so powerful.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: He elevates the narrative from a localized police failure to
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: an existential threat against an entire generation.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Furthermore, the demographic shift in the victimology becomes impossible for
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the city to suppress. The murder of Clifford Jones, the
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: 13-year-old tourist from Cleveland, that fundamentally altered the political calculus
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: for Atlanta's leadership.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Let's dig into that. Why does a tourist's death tip
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the scales when the deaths of 11 local children couldn't?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Because it threatens the city's economic engine. and its carefully
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: curated national image.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Ah, money and PR. Always.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: During this era, Atlanta was aggressively marketing itself to the
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: rest of the country as the city too busy to hate.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I remember that slogan.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: It was pitching itself as the progressive, cosmopolitan hub of
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: the New South, very eager to attract corporate investment and tourism.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: If a local child from a disenfranchised neighborhood disappears, well,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: the city administrators could compartmentalize that locally.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: They could ignore it.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Exactly. But when a tourist from Ohio is murdered and
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: left in a commercial dumpster, national news syndicates pick up
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the story. The national embarrassment threatens the city's bottom line.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: So the sudden whiplash in the city's response is just dizzying.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Commissioner Brown goes from, I don't want to alarm everyone,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: to authorizing what looks like a military mobilization.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: It really was massive.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Suddenly, there are citywide sweeps. The source notes that over
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: 450 volunteers, a completely integrated force of black and white citizens,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: are marching through Atlanta's vacant lots and forests, shoulder to shoulder,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: looking for evidence.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: The sheer scale of that operation is unprecedented for the region.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: You have more than 400 police officers and firefighters pulled
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: off their regular rotations, going door to door, interviewing thousands
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of residents.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Three months after Camille Bell's committee forces the issue, The
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Specialized Police Task Force explodes from five officers to 24.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: The reward money skyrockets to $ 100, 000.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: The FBI even steps in. I try to put myself
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: in the shoes of a resident in Atlanta at that moment.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: For a year, you've been screaming that a monster is
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: hunting your children. And the authorities treated you like a nuisance. Right. Then, suddenly,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the sky's full of police helicopters. Search parties are beating
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the brush in the woods behind your house. Detectives are
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: knocking on your door at night.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: It must have been terrifying.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: On one hand, you finally have the validation and the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: resources you begged for. But on the other hand, the
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: sheer size of the response confirms your darkest fears. The
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: terror is no longer a suspicion, right? It is a
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: validated citywide siege.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And the most agonizing part is that despite this massive
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: influx of manpower, despite the helicopters and the FBI, The
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: killer does not stop.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: No.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: The momentum of the tragedy simply accelerates. By the end
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: of 1980, just a few months after the massive sweeps begin,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the number of victims leaps from 4 to 14.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Which brings us to the grim final tally and this
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: bewildering profile of the crimes. Ultimately, the Atlanta child murders
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: encompass 29 black youths and young adults kidnapped and murdered.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Twenty-nine.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: But when you look at the raw data of these
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: 29 cases, it completely shatters the conventional understanding of how
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: a serial killer operates.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: The discrepancies within the victimology are what made this case
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: an absolute nightmare for early criminal profilers.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Because it didn't fit the mold.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Right. If we connect this to the bigger picture, typically,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: a serial predator develops a highly specific type and a
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: preferred modus operandi, a method of operation.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Like an MO.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yes. It's driven by a rigid psychological compulsion. But in Atlanta,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: the victim pool defied categorization.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: The ages span an incredible gap.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: You have victims as young as seven years old just
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: playing in their neighborhoods, and you have victims as old
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: as 28 years old.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Right, adults. And the methods of murder are equally chaotic.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Most were strangled or asphyxiated, which implies, you know, a
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: close contact physically dominating killer.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, very personal.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: But others died from gunshot wounds, which is a completely
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: different mechanism of violence, often lacking that intimate hands-on pathology
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: of strangulation.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: From a behavioral analysis standpoint, it is exceptionally rare for
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: a single perpetrator to fluctuate so wildly between targeting small
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: children and targeting full-grown adults.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: It makes no sense.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And while also switching their murder weapons from bare hands
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: to firearms. That level of variance suggests one of two things.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, what are they?
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Either the killer is highly disorganized and operating in a
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: state of absolute, unpredictable frenzy, or, much more disturbingly, there
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: isn't just one killer.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Wait, really? Yes.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: The data strongly suggested the possibility of multiple, unconnected predators
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: operating simultaneously, using the media frenzy of the Atlanta monster
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: as camouflage for their own separate crimes.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: That possibility is terrifying. That the city wasn't hunting a
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: single boogeyman, but rather dealing with an environment that had
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: become so chaotic, multiple bad actors were just exploiting it.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: It's a very real theory.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: But the police task force is under unimaginable political pressure
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: to produce a single, unified answer. They notice a shift
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: in the killers' dumping patterns. Bodies start appearing near or
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: in the rivers. So law enforcement organizes a desperate, high-stakes dragnet.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: They positioned officers to stake out 14 different bridges along
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the Chattahoochee River.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Consider the logistical strain and the claustrophobic fear gripping the
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: city until that arrest was made. You have officers sitting
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: in unmarked cars in pitch black conditions night after night,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: staring at the water, waiting for a phantom to appear.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Just waiting. Yeah. Then, in the early morning hours of
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: May 22, 1981... An officer under the James Jackson Parkway
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Bridge hears a loud splash. It sounds like something heavy
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: hitting the water. They coordinate with units on the bridge above,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: and they pull over a white Chevrolet station wagon, slowly
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: driving away from the scene. The driver is a 23-year-old
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: freelance photographer and music promoter named Wayne Williams.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: At the time of the stop, there is no visual
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: evidence of a crime in the car. They question him
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: and let him go. But two days later... the body
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: of 27-year-old Nathaniel Cater washes up downstream from that exact bridge.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: The dominoes finally fall. On June 21, 1981, almost a
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: year after Camille Bell organized her neighborhood busybodies into a
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: defensive shield, Wayne Williams is arrested. Yes. He is put
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: on trial, and he is eventually convicted of murdering Nathaniel
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Cater and another adult victim, 21-year-old Jimmy Ray Payne. He
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: is handed two life sentences— The mayor holds a press conference.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: The media universally dubs Wayne Williams the Atlanta monster. The
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: task force is disbanded. The city breathes a massive sigh
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of relief.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: But if we look closely at the legal reality of
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: that moment, a massive, glaring contradiction emerges that demands scrutiny.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Wait, this entire movement was started to stop the children's murders,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: but the man they catch is convicted of killing two
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: adults in their 20s.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Wayne Williams was never tried for the murder of
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yusuf Bell. He was never tried for the murder of
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Clifford Jones. In fact, Wayne Williams was never charged with
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: a single one of the Atlanta child murders.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: How does the justice system legally justify closing the books
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: on 20-plus murdered children without a single indictment?
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: The official mechanism relied heavily on the FBI's introduction of
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: fiber analysis, which was, at the time, a cutting-edge forensic tool.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Right, the fibers.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Investigators found specific, unusual yellow-green nylon carpet fibers on several
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: of the victims' bodies. They traced the microscopic profile of
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: these fibers, specifically their unique trilobal cross-section, to a very specific,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: limited batch of carpet manufactured by the Wellman Corporation.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Which happened to match the carpet in Wayne Williams' home.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Precisely. They also matched dog hairs found on the victims
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: to Williams' German Shepard.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack the mechanics of that because it sounds
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: damning on the surface. We're talking about Locard's exchange principle, right?
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: The idea that a perpetrator always brings something to the
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: crime scene and always leaves with something from it?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Precisely. The FBI used statistical probability to argue that the
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: mathematical odds of these specific victims from different parts of
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: the city all randomly picking up this exact rare carpet
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: fiber and this exact dog hair without coming into contact
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: with Wayne Williams' environment were virtually impossible.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: So they just linked them all together. Right.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Based on this associative evidence, the police department internally attributed
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the majority of the unsolved child murders to Williams. Once
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: he was convicted of the two adult murders, the authorities
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: effectively said, we have our man off the streets. Prosecuting
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: the other 20 cases is redundant and structurally unnecessary.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: So they just quietly closed the files.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: They did.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: They closed the files. But they didn't close the wound.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Because a statistical probability about carpet fibers presented in a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: press release does not provide psychological closure to a mother
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: standing over an empty bed.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: The source material is adamant about this. Many of the families,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: with Camille Bell at the absolute forefront, flat out rejected
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: the official narrative. They did not believe Wayne Williams was
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: the sole perpetrator, and they firmly believed the people who
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: actually killed their children were still walking the streets.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Donald Albright, a filmmaker who spent years reviewing thousands of
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: hours of primary source interviews for the Atlanta Monster Project,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: he summarized the enduring tragedy of this case.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: What did he say?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: He stated that the families are the ones insisting justice
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: was never served. The systemic drive to resolve the public
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: relations nightmare superseded the meticulous, undeniable pursuit of the truth
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: for each individual victim.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: So what does this all mean? How does a city
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: heal when the institutions say case closed, but the mothers
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: who force the investigation say you've got the wrong guy?
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: It creates a paradox of justice. The institutions essentially tell
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the mothers, we fixed the problem you complained about. You're welcome.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: While the mothers are screaming, you put the wrong puzzle
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: pieces in the frame just so you could go home.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Exactly. It confirms the very institutional distrust Camille was fighting
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: from day one. The belief that the city only cared
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: about the optics of safety, not the actual safety of
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: black children.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: When a bureaucracy prioritizes the appearance of a solution over
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: granular truth, it traps the surviving families in a state
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: of suspended animation. They are denied the basic human right
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: of resolution. They are forced to to live the rest
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: of their lives entirely alienated from the official history of
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: their own tragedy.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Camille Bell eventually faded from the intense glare of the
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: public eye. Though recently, her story found new audiences when
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: she was portrayed by June Carroll in the second season
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of Mindhunter, capturing the sheer force of her personality. But
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: television portrayals aside, her true legacy is rooted in an unyielding,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: almost terrifying demand.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: For the truth.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: She once articulated her ultimate motivation. I'm working to the
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: day that I can go to the cemetery and see
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Yusuf's grave and tell him, hey, I know who killed you,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: and we're going to handle that.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: That is a devastatingly simple objective. It strips away all
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: the politics, all the FBI profiling, all the media noise,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: and reduces the entire movement down to a mother wanting
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: to fulfill a promise to her son.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: The fact that the system denied her that specific moment
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: of closure is a profound injustice. However, the pressure she
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: created didn't entirely evaporate.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: No, it didn't.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: In March of 2019, nearly 40 years later, the mayor
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: of Atlanta officially reopened the Atlanta child murders cases. The
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: objective is to apply modern, advanced DNA testing to the
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: old evidence, evidence that was processed long before the genome
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: could be mapped.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: The hope is that the science of 2019 can finally
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: penetrate the fog of 1981, providing the undeniable molecular proof
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: that the families were denied.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: We can only hope.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: But as we step back and synthesize the enormous ground
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: we've covered today, the core takeaway isn't just about forensic
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: science or FBI dragnets. It's about the mechanics of power.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Camille Bell started as a woman crippled by the most
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: unfathomable trauma. But rather than allowing that trauma to isolate her,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: she weaponized it. She took her SNCC training, her neighborhood busybodies,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: and her sheer force of will, and she built a
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: civic battering ram. that shattered a culture of institutional apathy.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Her blueprint remains incredibly relevant. For anyone listening, her story
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: is a masterclass in recognizing the latent power within your
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: own immediate environment. Absolutely. It demonstrates that you do not
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: have to wait for institutions to validate your reality. If
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: the system is ignoring a fire in your community, you
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: don't wait for them to notice the smoke. You organize
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: your neighbors, you leverage your local networks, and you force
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: the machinery of the city to turn its hoses toward
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: the flames.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: You demand the validation. We've spent a lot of time
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: today examining the macro-level history, the civil rights organizations, the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: political maneuverings, the city-wide sweeps. But I want to leave
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: you with a thought drawn from the very beginning of
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: this deep dive. Something intimately small, defying logic, and deeply unsettling.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Think back to October 1979. Think about nine-year-old Yusuf Bell
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: in the crawlspace of that abandoned school. his clothes had
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: been washed.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: That's so disturbing.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: In the middle of all this massive history, ponder the
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: psychology of that specific act. What kind of mind takes
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: the time in the immediate aftermath of brutalizing a child
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: to carefully, methodically launder their garments? It is a detail
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: that haunts the edges of this entire narrative. And as
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: you try to comprehend the darkness required to stand at
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: that wash basin, you have to grapple with the reality
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: that According to the families who have fought for over
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: 40 years, the person who did that laundry has never
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: faced a jury.