Latest / Pillow Talk Sessions / Global Student Housing Trends with Joe Persechino (Yugo)

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Global Student Housing Trends with Joe Persechino (Yugo) · Pillow Talk Sessions

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Pillow Talk Sessions.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Chris Lepinsky, joined as always by my co-host Jessica Gillingham.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Christian, and today on Pillow Talk Sessions, we're joined by Joe Pushino, who is the Chief Operating Officer at Yugo, which is the only global student accommodation brand operating in 14 countries everywhere from Japan to the US with Europe in between.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll also be exploring what makes student living so resilient, how branding and strategy drive global growth, and where the next wave of opportunity lies in the fast expanding sector.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, welcome to the Pillow Talks Sessions podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Really pleased to have you as a guest, and I know that we'll have a really good conversation here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: But before we sort of get into the nub of the discussion, can you tell us a little bit more about Hugo?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, my son who's a student is called Hugo, so I might like sort of mistakenly start saying Hugo, but Hugo, tell us a little bit more about Hugo and also about yourself and how you came into the student accommodation.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, thank you both for having me on and hello to the audience.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mind if you say Hugo, there's worse brands that you can be associated with.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I won't take it personally.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit about me then.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been in the PBSA space since 2011, so nine on 15 years.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I started at Unite, as a lot of people do and did, and got my grounding there, never knew anything about student housing.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: My previous history had always been in retail and big box FMCG space prior to going to Australia and working in the gambling industry for five years, so uh very different, um, but a lot of skill sets that were transferable, and a lot of what I'd learnt throughout my career prior to Unite, um, I felt was very transferable.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I fell into it, and I suppose a lot of people probably say that the same thing.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: You fall into student because no one, certainly at the time, no one used to know what it was all about.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh yeah, I've been in the space now 15 years.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm at UGO now, which I'm proud to say is the largest operator in Europe, and at a global scale, it's almost the largest globally.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's obviously a couple of American uh operators out there that have got huge portfolios, but we're on a par with them.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um currently around 110,000 beds across 14 countries globally, from we like to say from Seattle to Sydney, but effectively the states right through to Australia, Japan, and everywhere in between.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are, you know, effectively we we call ourselves the global brand and operator in the student space, and I'm sure we'll touch on brand as we as we talk for as we move forward.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we form part, you go forms one part of the doc group, which is the parent company, the umbrella company, um, which consists of four verticals, one being the investment management side, which is GSA, Global Student Accommodation, Hugo is the operating brand, kinetic capital, which is development, so provides financing for developments in student and also touches into other areas of residential living.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, student.com, which is effectively what we call the marketplace for students, so it's like the booking.com, but for student accommodation.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So together we form part of the wider doc group, uh, and we feel that you know we've got our own little student ecosystem, if you like, where we effectively are a true vertical and and work across every part of student that you can think of from planning development stage right through to the leasing and online booking journey, etc.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And 15 years is a significant amount of time to be within a vertical.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you must have seen huge amounts of changes within PBSA within that time.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to give us like a short summary of the changes that you've seen in that 15 years?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's going to be hard to give you a short summary.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot that's changed from when we first entered, but uh yeah, thankfully Christian can edit out.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, a lot has changed, um, and it's it it ranges from the approach that operators take in terms of the service delivery and what that means through to the actual physical nature of of the product uh that that is being developed today.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when I first joined things such as um shared bathrooms and and twin rooms were were prevalent, or non-on-suites as well, were very prevalent.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a huge focus on density of rooms, and there wasn't really any or a lot of attention paid to the communal areas, the immunity space, the community building a community within PBSA.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was very much real estate-faced, um, real estate focused.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose that was natural because it it spawned from residential and residential as we know it, as we knew it, that's also changing, um, was very much you just build a put a building up, erect a building, put rooms in it, and then hand the keys, and then you don't see anyone until their lease is up and they move out, unless there's a maintenance issue along the way.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that was typically the original approach.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was a new sector, you know, it's very much an alternative back then, and so therefore it was let's not reinvent the wheel, let's build what was already been built before.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: However, over the years we've seen strong, a strong focus on amenity service, uh, the community aspect, but also importance of pastoral care, well-being, and and the mental health side of student learning and and their experience.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, something that we're very passionate about and uh is is more and more prevalent across the sector is that the university experience for students is more than just you go to university, study in the library, and then your student accommodation is just somewhere to place your head at night.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've worked very hard over the years to ensure that your where you live forms part of your university experience.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you relate that back to if you're sharing uh a flat with others that you don't know from different countries, different cultures, that's you know, that's not only in university where you do that, you can do that at home, and that's where you start to build these lifelong friendships and you get to experience those different cultures and different points of view and and really start to make some some good friends.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and for us as as managers of of PBSA, it's really important that we encourage that, the inclusivity aspect, the diversity, equity, etc., is is really really important.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's a phrase we use where we we we believe that our position within the whole university experience is to help young adults transition from home life into adulthood and independent living, and and that's our focus is how can we help that transition, ease that transition, because we know through the numerous surveys that we carry out each year, both with parents but also with students, as well as universities on top, you know, we we understand what the challenges are, and I'll probably um get beaten with the Eurogen Exer stick here, but um you know I think kids these days have have got it a lot easier than uh perhaps we had in the past and are a bit more molycoddled, perhaps, and uh therefore the life skills that we may have learnt um during our time growing up perhaps weren't aren't the same as those skills or aren't transferred across uh in today's generation.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we see a lot of we hear a lot about and get a lot of feedback on the surveys that uh parents are concerned about how will their children know how to cook, how will they know how to wash their clothes, what setting to put it on so they don't get whites that become pink, etc.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, whilst they seem small, you know, they are that they are concerns for parents, and then obviously from a university perspective, they're concerned about students' mental health and ensuring that they've got a safe environment within which to live and study, but also that we work alongside them in terms of signposting when we spot potential signs of stress or something not quite right.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it is very much about the sector working hand in hand with um other stakeholders, universities, parents, etc.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a fundamental shift where there were very much, you know, PBSA was almost seen as the as the enemy to universities and the the evil profit-driven businesses that are just trying to gouge students.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I think that has softened over the years, and we're now seeing far more collaboration within the sector.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: I um my son Hugo does actually listen to this podcast, and he'd probably disagree with you, I think, that he's got it easier.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I I had a memory, you talked about twin rooms back in the day.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: I actually I spent part of my university in the States, and I had a triple I had to share with two other people, it was horrendous.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um before we get into the numbers, and I know Christian's gonna lead us um into the first topic, but I just want to reflect something back to you.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we on this podcast, there are there are some set themes that we tend to talk about, and one of them, we give it the broad brush of the hotelisation of real estate or the hotelisation of the rental living sectors.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you've kind of illustrated that really quite nicely in that 15-year difference.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when we talk about the hotelisation, we don't necessarily mean amenities or anything like that, it is more about coming from a customer-focused perspective and a service perspective, and sort of putting the customer and their experience at the center, which is typically what hospitality does, but now we're seeing you know, PBSA, also Bill Taranko living, as putting the customer's experience at the centre, which is kind of what you talked about that journey is that the students and how they're they experience the building is is kind of really central.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know it's it's an obvious statement that many marketeers state, but the best form of and cheapest form of advertising is word of mouth, and that that is absolutely true, and it's it's very prevalent.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's an example that that I do recall which which shocked me at the time um when I was at Unite, and there was a building that um the property that we had in Liverpool, and we one of the students from the previous year was a Chinese student, and they loved their experience so much that they told their friends, and he actually managed to get, I think it was 28 of his friends from China to live there the following year along with him.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you think of what the cost of acquisition would be on those 28 students, especially because they're international, marketing to China, which is very difficult in terms of access.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that resonated with me, and and I think the whole sector understands that that word of mouth is key and reputation is key, and the the experience for the students is is essential, a to obviously for the success of of the property itself, um, but also for the for the student, because if if we're if we're ticking the box and they want to come back and stay with us uh as a rebooker or a returner, that's that's the best indication that you're doing a good job.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: They want to stay with you because it's not about price.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: As much as you know, we we talk about affordability and and cost of going to university, etc.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's only a part of the the whole piece, you know, the whole puzzle.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is the experience, it is the time that they have, the service delivery that they get from from the staff, and how at home, I suppose, they feel within our properties, and you know, that's a real focus, and it and it has to be.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just makes everyone's life so much easier if you've got um a student that comes back the following year, you know their name already, so you've already got that relationship that you've built up, and you know, it's a it's a it's a gift that our teams have on the ground where they can be managing a 1500-bed property and yet they know every student's name.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean that's impressive.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it also for you as a student, if someone or even you know in hotels as we've seen it, if they if they welcome you by by your name, you know, that that goes a long way.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And hotels is slightly different because it's a shorter stay, but if you're living there for a year and they know your name out of 1,500 students, that instantly gives you that connection and makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside and is a great start and first step to um hopefully returning the following year and retaining them as a student.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I mean I I'm just thinking about when I went to a student, I was the guy that was missing a door.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where the door went.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it makes you think that I want to go back to university now.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've seen some of the student accommodation.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: The more we talk about it, it just sounds like such a great place to live.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, okay, you'll figure out how to wash your clothes, that's fine.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know all about evolving as a person, but you know, the the environment that you are really kind of forms your idea about the world and the people around you.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So having that, you know, the first first stop be you know, uh a good student accommodation where you can grow, uh, I think is amazing.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should jump straight into some of the topics here that we we have uh outlined today.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one is you know, looking at global student living as you know, a scalable model.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the student accommodation sector is seeing global demand outpace supply.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what makes this segment so resilient?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you've answered a bit of it, but also compelling.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And how might its operating principles influence how we design and scale other residential formats?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Big question to start off with.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think I'll answer, I'll try and answer it in two parts.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: The the first part is you know, touching on the on the scalability.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: We know that you know, over the next 10 years, probably less, there'll be 240 million students, tertiary students worldwide.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, not all of those will need student accommodation.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to segment those out to online courses, people that study and commute from home, etc.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a huge number.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we know the what we call penetration rates, but effectively the availability of student housing or PBSA within many, many markets, there's a there's a huge shortage, very, very much undersupplied.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you think, if we take that the US and UK are the two most mature markets, um, and they're you know, I think the UK is hovering around sort of 30 to 35 percent um penetration, um, then you compare that to say in Italy, where you're probably 5%, so only 5% of of those students that are that need accommodation can be housed, you know, that's a huge shortfall.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if you extrapolate that 240 million number out to the end of 2050, predictions currently are that that number will grow to over 400 million.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: So from a scalability perspective, the future looks bright in terms of numbers, so it's a sector that we can get behind.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I touched on before that PBSA was seen as an alternative by many institutions and capital partners and players.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: In my view, you know, residential itself was was was seen as an alternative, whereas now I think residential is core, it's absolutely core, it should sit alongside uh offices and and other sectors like retail.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and in fact, over the last few years we've seen that investment into living has outpaced what traditionally was the biggest sector of offices, and we know that COVID's had an impact, etc.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the future looks looks very, very good in terms of numbers coming through, and we've seen penetration, um, sorry, participation rates um increasing a lot across many markets, many countries, in terms of the number of students that are opting to go to university as it becomes more available to two different countries.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think the the the nuance though is A, we we know that it's difficult to build uh costs have increased across labour, but across materials, cost of land, etc.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it is it is hard to build at the right price or a good price and a value for money price point.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the the nuance really, which does affect other sectors, and and this is something that we've been looking at over the last couple of years, is that we've seen the rise of of BTR and co-living and and flex living.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I suppose it's it's the it's the opaqueness in terms of data that's the that's the challenge.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: So in the US until recently, it was very open, everyone fed into college house, and you could see how the market was trending and how rents were trending and occupancy, etc.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's on its way out now because of recent changes.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when you throw in new sectors or new subsectors of living, such as co-living, um it's harder to track how many students are actually potentially tempted and do live there, and and at the moment we're making educated or hopefully educated guesses as to as to what that can be, because understanding what percentage may opt to live in BTR or or co-living has an impact on whether a scheme should go ahead, whether it stacks up to develop something new, what your price points should be, what you can expect in terms of occupancy, how difficult it might be, your marketing strategy.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a series of implications that you need to take into account.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: But when you don't have solid numbers to and data to to back you up, it it does make it challenging.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think as with with student, um, you know, co-living BTR, there is a place for everything.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: There they are subsectors of living, and we know that the ultimate mantra, if you like, of the living sector is that everybody deserves and needs a roof over their head.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, and we know that there's just not enough supply out there of any kind of housing.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've seen the shortfalls, we've seen the targets the government set and don't hit across the world.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So from a buoyancy perspective, the sector is bright, from a delivery perspective, it's challenging.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then obviously the opaqueness or opacity of not having the data to make better informed decisions about where to build and what to build present a slight headwind, but in general, it's a very, very positive trend from my perspective.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know that we're gonna go into a little bit more about growing globally and and what it's like to operate in in different markets because that must be hugely challenging, and I know we're gonna you know go into that in a minute, but you've talked also about the shortfall of supply in built-to-rent and co-living as well.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Are you tempted to go into those asset classes as well?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it you know what what's your kind of feeling of that sort of you know, expanding?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: You've got this great brand, you've clearly got happy customers, they're gonna grow up and want other asset classes.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: What's your kind of feeling about that?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a there's a number of aspects to take into account, and you know, if I think more broadly, it really does depend on, you know, everyone's got their own strategy, and it really does depend on where you think the opportunity may lie.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And should you try and be a jack of all trades and spread into different segments of of the living space, or do you just focus and hone and really get try and be great at one thing?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there's not necessarily you know, one way is not better than the other, necessarily.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose from our perspective, we think that focusing on student is is the is the best thing for us to do, but that's because we've got a a long history uh of being in student, you know, in the current guise, but also if I if I mention our our founder Nick Porter and and chairman who is regarded as the godfather of of PBSA, he originally set up Unite back in 1991, and that was really, I suppose, the first the first scheme in Bristol, then with the nominations to the university.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: was was the first was the first step into PBSA in the UK.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a over 30 years of of of history.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's always he's always had an unwavering drive to focus on student and try and just get better at what we do year on year and improve on that whether it's the service, the quality of the building, the relationships and and obviously the ultimate return to to stakeholders.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the path we've chosen.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just try and be great at what you do.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now how you define great is a different story and you know everyone will say that they're very good at what they do but you can always improve and I suppose what we're we target and what we're proud of is trying to be pioneering.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So going from that very first asset in Bristol in 91 to now 14 countries across the globe, nobody else has got that footprint.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody else has done that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you touched on it on your on the on the the question you just asked Jessica in terms of what it must be like going into new markets and that's pioneering.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: We've gone into markets which people have you know others have never set foot in or had never set foot in and it's a steep learning curve and but I think by offering by knowing what your offering is and and and really focusing on the delivery of that for us is certainly is certainly where we want to continue to focus now.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Our split is probably 95% to five percent student during term time because in some markets it isn't there are blurred lines so you don't have you know in the UK you have a sui generis planning consent for student but you don't have that and typically in other countries it'll either be classed as residential or hotel use and and sometimes commercial and there's different legislation that that sits around that in terms of the lease types that you can offer the length of of stay and the types of people that you can offer to and then you think of the US and the Fair Housing Act there which means that you can't discriminate against non-students so you know there are there are nuances that you have to incorporate within your offering but typically we're 95% student and then during the summer it's a it's a different experience because in Europe especially you will run a summer market where whilst we do focus on students and language schools and university courses and and accommodating those students we do run tourist or hotel type properties as well during the summer.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to um dig a little bit deeper on that you know um you know as an operator as you mentioned expanding into new geographies you said 14 countries you know how do you balance this growth with consistency especially um you know you touched on it a little bit but you know customer expectations regulations cultural norms you know they they they vary so widely they do they do and I suppose a lesson that we learned very quickly um early on was that one size does not fit all you can't just pick up the UK model and transplant it into other markets and expect it to work you do need to really understand and get under the skin of each market.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when the way we approach any market is that typically we take up to about two years researching that market to understand the nuances the cultural aspect what how do people buy how do they purchase what's the understanding of PBSA do they have an understanding you know typically education is the is the first point that we we touch on.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: We need to educate universities parents governments local councils on what what PBSA actually is because invariably it it's never existed so once we've we've gone through that phase of the education piece it's then understanding how easy is it to do business in that in that in that country how easy is it to to get planning consents to to build um are there restrictions are there um wider master plans that mean that actually you're not allowed to build student inner city it's got to be on the periphery and then what does that mean in terms of travel times for students and and and therefore the attractiveness of that to a student population but then also the strength of the universities you know number of universities in that country in that city what's their strength what's their strategy are they growing are they in decline you know applications up or down etc where do they sit in the the times higher rankings as well as the QS rankings and really cross-referencing that and putting that all together and then saying right we think this is a market that we should go into it hits our minimum thresholds in terms of number of students what's you know the the percentage split between domestics internationals the domestically mobile students effectively that's your address all demand which is the internationals and domestically mobile and then looking at the capital so the the the investors effectively so the the advantage that we have as a group that I touched on earlier in part of the doc group is that we we manage and operate properties on behalf of our sister company GSA but we also manage for other clients other institutional clients about 45% of our portfolio is GSA managed stocks so actually the majority is non-GSA and for us it's about partnering with the right capital partner in those markets and and making or putting together a compelling argument as to why they should come with us into that new market.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on the market because every every capital every capital partner or investor will have their own risk view of of each market and whether they will allocate and how much they will allocate to those markets and and that will drive the returns that they're looking for.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And for us it's it's important that we marry the right capital partner with the right markets and the right opportunities to a deliver on what we want to deliver in terms of the brand promises that we make and the service etc and obviously a successful scheme but also the returns that the the investor wants so it's not a case of someone turns up tomorrow and says right we want to go into X country will you come with us and then we just say yes on the spot there's a lot of thinking that has to go into that because as an operator and every other operator will this will resonate with is you know the the key to efficient operations is scale and you need scale in cities and in countries in order to to achieve that and if you just go in for one property for 300 beds it's really not going to work.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well it's definitely not going to work but if you've got a capital partner that's willing to commit a number in terms of investment and they have a strategy where they want to grow to X thousand beds over a a period of time we we would happily work with them and make that work because we know that there's longevity in the market.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's no point in entering today someone builds something for 300 beds and then they're looking to flip it as soon as it's built and occupied because we've just invested a hell of a lot of of capital ourselves in going into that market and it would be wasted.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it needs to be a cautious approach and I suppose the beauty of of being in 14 markets now is that we have two focuses one is scalability in that market and growing in that market to increase our efficiency which we pass on through NOI performance to investors but also looking at um new markets that that we want to go into and and we are keen on and then finding the right partners to go into those markets.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know we've got a list of markets that that we are interested in in entering um and it's just about finding the right opportunities and partners to do that with.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much complexity which kind of really builds the moat around what you're doing as well doesn't it like you've got to have so much in place apart from expertise relationships you know all all of patience all of those things around that moat which is really interesting but what I'd love to first I I don't know whether you'd tell us but I'd love to know which markets you're really excited about but you don't have to tell us if you don't want to tell us that but um yeah I can tell you no I'm happy to tell you the markets that we're we're excited about that we're in um I won't divulge just yet the markets that we are looking to go into um but you know if I think of in Europe there's there's a huge opportunity as I said the UK is the most nice uh the most mature market but there are a number of nascent markets out there we've seen that the the recent you know the last five or so years the surge in Spain um in terms of development and and PBSA being built but we see a huge opportunity in Italy Italy has is we've been looking at this market or I've been looking at this market personally since probably 2016 it's taken a long time for us to get into into that market we did enter um successfully last year and we have seen the opportunities there are are exponential the growth opportunity is huge it's got the lowest penetration rate in terms of supply in Europe it's the third largest I think in terms of student numbers and numbers sort of vary a little bit from from month to month and year to year but um it it's it's huge opportunity and that's because it's A under supply as I've mentioned but B it is difficult to enter and it's difficult to get your head around things like the planning system which can take invariably five to ten years to get planning permission and and capital is not that patient they need to deploy to start seeing a return but we see huge opportunity there's been a big shift you know Milan has been the focus for for a lot of um other players in terms of trying to get into Milan because they have been on a journey over the last few years with their own master plan in trying to attract more students to to Milan you know strong universities but you look at it as a country there's there's very strong universities you know there's a huge university in Rome you know over 2000 students in one university I mean it's incredible for a European university.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the oldest university in Bologna from the early 1000s you know 1081 I think it was when it was first first born I think it's trying to claim that it's the oldest university in the world you know there's there's a long history of of universities in that country and it's a great country to live in you know the climate's very good very attractive and we see huge opportunity there and we're we're we're working on a number of of those opportunities as we speak so that's one.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: The second one which surprised me and didn't surprise me I would say is Poland.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not a lot of people would have looked at Poland there's still a lot of value to be had I think that's where um I mentioned that the research really comes to the fore more because you know southern Europe whilst you can't bucket everything together there's similarities between Spain and Italy for example in terms of culture and the lifestyle the weather etc Poland is different and you know just looking at the metric when I talk about internationals people will naturally think oh it's it's Chinese students or Indian students while internationals in Poland is not Chinese or Indian students it's more Eastern bloc or Lithuanians Serbians for example so again everything that you knew for other from other markets and the research that you use and the data that you use to build up the business case is different because the international students in Poland have a different disposable income or price range that they can they can afford.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: So again that affects your thinking which also in terms of pricing but also affects your thinking in terms of the product that you're building the specification etc but they still have the same fundamental needs in terms of needing to study and you still want to give that consistency of brand promise across you know in terms of community and and suppose that the the principle that we we try and adhere to at Hugo is is the 9010 philosophy rather than the 8020 which is 90% consistency 10% variation due to local nuances whether it's legislation or health and safety whatever crops up in in the in the local area but trying to be as consistent as we can in our service offering and that's that's how we hopefully so far have seen success and will continue to see success.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I look further afield then outside of Europe the US is clearly a huge market you know we're we're currently about 18000 beds we'll be looking to double that shortly but there's still huge opportunity because it's such a big market and you know we're only touching the sides really in terms of 1800 beds there's a couple of big players out there that that we're gunning for and we'll you know we want to be number one in every market that we're in if possible and then outside of that you know there's still scope we're we're the only realistically the only player in in Dubai for example and there's a lot of effort going into attracting university campus offshoots if you like into Dubai the government are very proactive and trying to attract you know some of the big names like Harvard and Yale and MIT to set up an offshoot campus and you know we've already got an asset there we've been trading there for over five years now successfully and again that was a different market because in in that property we have segregation of male and female for example separate floors separate blocks so again a learning curve and then for us it's you know I'm excited about APAC and growth in in Australia and Japan where we also have a presence but again it's it's that dual track strategy of new markets as well as scaling in the existing markets that we're in.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: You guys sound sound super busy so I appreciate you taking the time out today to be on the podcast with us just hearing everywhere you're going uh uh one note on Poland is I actually live and work in Poland and that's where I'm out of Krakow.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you that that your direction to Poland is right on because there's a lot of tech companies moving to Poland.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's becoming like a huge tech center um you know since since Brexit a lot of companies have moved over here because of the price of living and the price of the economy and it's a really you know if anybody's thinking about moving business to Poland that's definitely a good place to do so.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to we have two more subjects to talk about uh today and the next one is you know branding and student living um everything that you've been talking about and what you've been doing is all reflective of your brand um you know why do you think brand matters so much in the student living space especially you know you're marketing to a generation that's incredibly brand savvy and digital connected I think you've hit the nail on the head there you know one thing that we've really focused on is our brand and we launched the Yugo brand in 2021 um because previous to that we were a number of operating names so we had Uninest Student Housing Company Nexo Residencias for example uh headquarters in Germany and we felt that there was something missing in the sector you know we we think of the great brands that that are around and and you know how well known they are and and a lot of them stem from the US and I think it's it's it's it was a stark sort of revelation for us and for me when we entered the US that in in in real estate especially but but in student brand didn't exist.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: The brand was the property that's the brand you advertise the property name but no company behind it so the the large companies such as Scion or ACC didn't have a brand that that students would recognize or would would roll off the top of your you know off the top of your head if you were having a conversation about student housing it would be I stayed at X building rather than with this brand.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And for us it felt like a huge opportunity because as you said Christian today's Gen Z and Gen Alpha are even more so moving forward it's all about brand and brand trust and for us that fits in with what I was touching on before in terms of brand promise is we we want to be synonymous for giving a level of consistency and and service and expectation to students no matter what country you're in there should be a baseline of what we should be delivering to those students and what you can expect, what parents can expect what students can expect what universities can expect and then it will the the the the local nuances will will vary on top of that but it should be should be consistent everywhere which is harder to achieve than than you might think but it's very important for us because you know and it's very deliberate in terms of our positioning that we say we are a global brand and operator and not just an operator because in our view if you're just an operator you you're thinking you know it's a paycheck effectively you're thinking about how you're gonna to get paid your fees your focus is really on the performance of the asset from an NOI perspective but for us it's more than that it's more than than just focusing on the asset.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes that's absolutely important we all need to be paid for the work that we do but for us it's it's a step further and if I bring us back to my one of my earlier points in terms of that transition from home living to independent living effectively independent life and becoming an adult and and maturing and learning and exposure to different cultures etc that's key for us and that's part of we have you know three pillars of programming that we run internally which many operators will say you know we'll talk to you about the student experience we our aim is to go beyond that and effectively it's it's almost called the Yugo movement if you like in terms of it's beyond just student experience and beyond providing or putting on events for for students you know barbecues or whatever that's that's run of the mill you know for us as part of our pioneering piece is how can we take that further and we have three strong pillars which are around personal development professional development and then sustainability and we think that those are the three main topics that are important to students today and we continue to reassess those as we continue to survey future students and we program around that so that it's not just about putting on a nice barbecue with free beer you know it's it's more than university life should be more than that you think that the cost of going to university is has increased so much over the years the whole thing not just the accommodation but also cost of going to university has increased the pressures that that puts on families we've seen that it's not just the middle classes and and the and the wealthy middle classes that are sending their children to university and you know the numbers we we talked about before in terms of those numbers going up it's also the the lower economic eco ecos eco-socionomic groups that that are coming through and they've been saving up for you know families have been saving up a hell of a long time to put their child to give through university to give them the best opportunity possible in terms of getting the best education at the best establishments.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to be mindful of that and what we try and do is push programming beyond just the normal trivia night or movie night in a property but actually how can we help them become more employable moving forward from a professional perspective.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So and again it goes beyond just CV writing but it's also giving them access to uh CEOs of different companies that can talk to them about resilience or talk to them about their career journey and the and the challenges they faced and how to overcome those and avoid pitfalls and almost be mentors but offering webinars on that and you know our partnership with with um vcarb in Formula One has been fantastic where we've had access to some really great minds from both Red Bull but also from the V Carb team to talk to us about their uh experiences and uh you know we we try and we try and pause sorry christian uh I'm missing a word there we try and correlate um what they do as a business and you think Formula One is very much about being a highly honed machine it's it's a it's a matter of milliseconds that you know how you ch how quickly you change a tire everyone needs to know their role needs to know how they how they fit into the bigger piece of the puzzle or bigger part of of the whole journey if you like of F1 and how people need to be resilient how they need to be um you know they they need the necessary skills to fulfill their part because they could be the one piece that lets everyone else down and could cost those tenths of a second to a team which could ultimately cost them the race and points and funding etc and being able to have someone from those businesses and those brands that can talk to students and pass that on and pass on you know the the lessons they've learnt and the mindsets that you need to have you know for us can only enhance what students are already learning at university and help them as part of their their journey into into the workforce because it is becoming more and more competitive and more and more students are going to university more and more students want to come out with firsts um and go to you know the top universities to make them more employable well if that pool is getting bigger you you know uh employers need to choose somehow what's the what's the the benchmark or what's the KPI for for choosing from a wider pool um you you need to set new new KPIs or new things that you're looking for and I think the more we can add to a student's uh CV if you like life C V in helping them to secure better employment whether that's through us and through our own internship program which is part of the programming or or through others you know we we feel that we should be doing everything we can to help those students be successful.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know I'd love to be sitting here saying that if you live with us you will you know there will be a stat in the future I'm sure but if you live with us you will be more successful than if you live somewhere else because of everything that we do as part of our programming.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully the next time if I'm invited back on I can I can I can share that stat because that that would be a phenomenal stat that would certainly help our marketing and brand piece but also um help us with uh negotiations with universities etc and with with councils and and governments local government I hope you're putting metrics in place and really thinking about that because it would be you know really significant to be able to say that and I I just you know it's so much has changed I was just sort of thinking when I went to university it was all about fun it was like you know whether the bar was like big enough you know if it was open every night of the week and not just Friday and Saturday or something it's all changed and I have as I've mentioned I've got one at university and one who's choosing universities now and there's so much pressure um you know to have operators like yourself that sort of understand that and are providing you know helping something which is great but Joe I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation um we definitely want you back on um and also I wanted to I want to hear more about what it's like to operate in Japan because that is a country you didn't mention but you know going from Japan to Madrid to somewhere in the US you know it's it's a really interesting model that you guys have.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much for coming on the podcast and I know Christian's just gonna clear us out now.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah absolutely there's uh one one last question for you Joe uh anything coming up for you guys or anything our audience should know if they're interested in finding out more about you go where can they go?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: So as always we are forever trying to pioneer and and and do new things so there's there's some big things that are on the on the horizon which I can't talk about just yet but um stay tuned for those um and then for anyone that's interested in in getting in contact um they can either do that through through LinkedIn on I'm visible there but also I'll be attending some conferences um as I try and do throughout the year.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think the next one will be the the CLAS Foundation conference uh in November and then property week in December so more than happy to catch up with anyone then as well.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's brilliant.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Joe thanks so much for for spending the time uh like this podcast has said uh you are a very very busy person so we'll let you get back to it but again uh thanks for joining us and that wraps it up for today's episode of Pillow Talk Sessions thank you so much for joining us and to stay connected and never miss a conversation head over to Pillotalksessions.com to subscribe you can also follow us on LinkedIn for more insights and interviews with leaders shaping the future of hospitality multifamily living and community driven spaces.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Pillotalk Sessions is brought to you by Abode Worldwide, the strategic public relations agency for tech brands and tech enabled operators transforming the way we work, play and stay.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Abode Worldwide creates category leaders and builds brand value across hospitality and modern rental living.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next time on Pillow Talk Sessions