Latest / The Science of Skin / Skincare Through the Ages - Episode 4: Understanding Men's Unique Skincare Needs

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Skincare Through the Ages - Episode 4: Understanding Men's Unique Skincare Needs · The Science of Skin

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The Skin Care Through the Ages series is sponsored by Neutrogena.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: To learn more about the products mentioned in the episodes, please visit the link in the description.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Science of Skin podcast, formerly known as Skincare Confidential.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I am a board certified dermatologist and your host for today.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: We are covering men's skincare as part of our Neutrogena takeover skincare through the ages.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're not really talking about a certain age today, we're talking about a gender, and that is the male gender.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to talk about how skincare differs and the skincare recommendations differ for men versus women.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two incredible guests today.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: First, I've got Dr.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Terrence Keeney, also a board-certified dermatologist.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: He is the founder of Skin DC.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: He's also a clinical associate professor at George Washington University Department of Dermatology.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Terrence, thank you so much for being here.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ted, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be great.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Corey Hartman is the founder and medical director of Skin Wellness Dermatology, also a board-certified dermatologist.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot to say that.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's an adjunct associate professor at the UAB Hearsink School of Medicine.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: He practices in Birmingham.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hartman, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's my pleasure.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's jump into it, gentlemen.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, skin care for men.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, goodness, we spend so much time talking about, you know, aesthetics for men, uh, but let's talk about skin care.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And in terms of your recommendations for men versus your female patients, like what are some foundational differences that that dictate what products you would recommend for men versus women?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, Corey, if you want to jump in here.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: So the recommendations for men are always going to take into account the fact that most men are not really going to be able to adopt a very um long regimen on a daily basis.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I always try to keep that in mind.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we try to pack as much punch as possible in a few key products.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I like to tell patients about the Holy Trinity, which is like a moisturizer, moisturizer with skincare, maybe an antioxidant, and then a retinol at night.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: This really does accomplish most of the goals that most men are really interested in um achieving for their skincare, and they complement their procedures very well as well.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Keeping it simple is certainly key for guys, right?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: We we we love those Swiss Army knife products that can do so many different things.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Terence, when when you're starting to consider, you know, skincare, you you see a gentleman, you you maybe you do some some neurotoxins, some filler laser work, and and now it's time to kind of support that investment with at-home skincare.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: What are you considering?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think Corey did a great job of highlighting how you know the behavior of men is different, but the biology of the skin is different.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: And really the kind of the ultimate player of the biology is it's just how important sex hormones are on skin function.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, men obviously have a lot more testosterone, uh, and that can have some positive things.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So men have higher amounts of collagen, uh, the skin is thicker, uh, but testosterone potentially also plays a role in how our um how we respond to uh oxidative stress.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: So men have uh you know higher rates of oxidative stress, and that may play a role in you know why men in general respond more poorly to all cancers, including skin cancer.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So skin cancer rates are higher in men.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh men also have a um higher rate of UV-induced immunosuppression.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So these are some few biologic factors that I think about.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, what does that mean in terms of skin care?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, number one, I think, you know, Corey's right, let's keep it simple.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but a mainstay in my uh recommendations are antioxidants.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think antioxidants are key, and particularly in men, because once again, highlighting men have higher rates of oxidative stress, higher rates of skin cancer, so antioxidants are critical from an anti-aging uh perspective.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, retinol are really important because men um, you know, can potentially also tolerate retinol more.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes in in my female patients, I I may or may not be able to implement retinols.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: They they have this, you know, everyone's heard about retinols, everyone wants to use retinoids, uh, but men can often tolerate it a little bit more because of the increased um sebum production due to testosterone.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then lastly, in terms of moisturizers uh that Corey mentioned, uh, you know, we have these kind of two classes now of moisturizers.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: You have the con traditional cream moisturizer, which are preventing evaporation of water.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Those are your lipid and water-based kind of classic moisturizer we think about.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: I tend to skew farther away from that for men because we men tend to be oilier in general, but uh, you know, keeping hydrated is important and men actually have lower you know amounts of water in the skin, even though they have more collagen, even though they produce more sebum.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that this is where HA products, uh HI hydrators, uh, you know, I find are really home runs for our male patients.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you kind of teed me right up to talk about a Neutrogena product that really fits in with what you just discussed.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the Neutrogena Hydro Boost Water Cream is a great product to consider for your male patients because it has that hyaluronic acid, but it also has the data to support 72 hours of hydration after application.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if we are considering men to want to use the least number of products but get the most benefit from each product, that's a good one to consider, especially for the oilier male patient who may not need as much moisturization.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is something where it could be applied every other, maybe even every third day, based on the data that we have.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as Dr.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Keeney said, the uh hyaluronic acid uh really is such a great humectant to draw water in.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's multi-weight HA, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's the higher weight HA, which uh acts as a as a true moisturizer.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It seals in the water and then the the lower weight HA, which brings in the water as a humectant.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that, uh Dr.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Keeney.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh Corey, you know, we we also mentioned retinols, and Neutrogena has just such a long history of retinol development.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, a lot of people maybe discount these over-the-counter retinols and think they have to go to prescription strength.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: But we know there's tons of data to support the retinols uh that we can purchase at a great price point.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: The over-the-counter retinoids really get the job done.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I counsel patients that if you aren't suffering from acne where you really need a prescription retinoid to treat that skin condition, you know, an over-the-counter retinol, especially the ones that we have today, they've come a long way.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: They give the efficacy, they help to stimulate collagen, they help, you know, keep the um pores from getting clogged and normalize the keratinization of the skin.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they help to even out the skin tone, but they do it in a way that is tolerable for most patients.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, another thing about men, you know, I have a psychology degree and for my undergraduate degree.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I always am thinking about the psychology of getting people to be consistent and to be compliant with regimen.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: And if you have a lot of irritation or intolerance to a product, I feel as though men are less willing to continue to use that product.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: So anytime you can get good results with as little irritation as possible, particularly for this population of patients, it's going to help to increase um compliance, which of course increases the results.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and Dr.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Kinney, you you consider, I would imagine, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you consider retinols as kind of a mainstay of any regimen, especially when you're going after rejuvenation and using, you know, lasers in particular.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if if patients are going to be investing in laser procedures and uh investing in treatments designed to slow the aging process, well, what are they doing in between those lasers to preserve those results?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so if they're already investing heavily in the lasers, you know, it's a small investment in comparison to adopt good skincare.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, and that's very easy for my male patients to kind of you know convince them, talking about their ROI, you know, like what can we do to preserve these results to to sometimes even delay the need, uh the frequency of laser treatments, you know.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So if you take, you know, adopt a really great uh skincare regimen, you may not have to do that researching as frequently uh so they can save money in the long run.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes that uh that's some of the psychology I I I work with my male patients and kind of getting them to adopt a skincare regimen.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because historically, men aren't as accustomed and used to using skincare products.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so as they go roller and they they want to, but we also have to pick products and regimens that they will remember and they'll adopt and use consistently.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, like Corey mentioned, finding products that don't irritate, finding products that tactilely feel uh great on traditionally somewhat oily skin, like a like a hydro boost.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh those are all kind of strategies to get men to continue to use their products.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know, Neutrogena has a rapid wrinkle repair retinol, which again have so much data to support how well they work uh to induce so many changes in the epidermis and dermis.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's a good one in my view to choose over the counter.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also been some data uh performed on skin X plants looking at, you know, if if we use a moisturizer before or after a retinol, does that decrease the efficacy of the retinol?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Neutrogena produces data, kudos to them, to show that what we call the half sandwich, whether it's the moisturizer first or after a retinol, doesn't really decrease or or mitigate any of the efficacy of the retinol.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you used a full sandwich where you did moisturizers such as the hydro boost and then retinol and then the hydro boost again, that actually did mitigate retinol efficacy.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So in some patients, we just need that, don't we, Corey?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we just have to do the full sandwich because they need that support during the first retinization period.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: But board.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, especially exactly those first few weeks, where whether you're gonna onboard it more slowly and have them apply it every other night, I think that the moisturizer is always key.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I've been recommending that for years.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm glad that this paper um corroborates my my anecdotal findings.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, but like like Dr.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: Shakini said, the the skincare regimen is an easier buy-in for men.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: I tell them it's like the insurance policy.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: They just bought a new car, and you want to make sure that it's gonna, you're gonna get everything out of it that you're supposed to.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's usually a pretty easy sell if you can keep the regimen simple and effective.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: The skincare through the ages series is sponsored by Neutrogena.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: For over 90 years, Neutrogena has advanced skin health for all skin types.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: With formulation expertise that combines scientifically proven ingredients and innovative technologies to deliver maximum efficacy and an unparalleled aesthetics experience.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's beauty to a science.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: To learn more about the products mentioned in the episodes, please visit the link in the description.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, talking about antioxidants, guys, because uh Terrence, you you mentioned antioxidants as well, uh, I totally agree, especially AM uh application of antioxidants are such a foundational ingredient, just like we mentioned moisturizers and retinol.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: What what ingredients and antioxidants, just to give those people out there some idea of what they should really look for in in their ingredients for antioxidants, what are you what are you highlighting, Terrence?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean there's more and more antioxidants being developed.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think where a lot of the data comes from is the classic vitamin C, vitamin E, ferulic acid.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Those are kind of mainstay, kind of the OGs.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there are also, you know, newer products, uh, I always butcher the name.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh, you know, I often when I'm looking at antioxidants, particularly for men, you know, I'm looking at the science, uh, but I'm also looking at the formulation.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, men are sometimes uh, you know, clumsy.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of antioxidants are or all of them are are sensitive sunlight.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: So there, you know, the way these products are uh packaged in often opaque bottles and often use dripper droppers.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I find some men are a little resistant to that.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and how I kind of incorporate men to use that, to use these products, uh, because they're often like you mentioned, Ted, used in the morning, is to pair it with something that most men, except myself, uh, who do every morning is shaving.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I say, look, you know, those old school aftershave, like alcohol-based products that burn your skin, throw those out.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Here's your antioxidant, pretend this is your aftershave and pair it.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Put it right next to your to your uh shaving cream, and you're gonna be using this antioxidant.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And there are some gel formulations that are really nice.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: That is, and so I tend to or gel non-alcohol, kind of like serum-based antioxidants that I think are nice for men, specifically post-shaving.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that shaving, um, you know, actually shaving may uh enhance penetration of it because you're you're almost you you are exfoliating your you're you're cutting the hair and and mildly exfoliating the stratum corneum, so you're gonna get enhanced penetration.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one kind of mental strategy I use uh beyond going to their pocketbooks with kind of investing in the product, but also pairing it with a behavior they're doing every day to ensure compliance.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Dr.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hartman, do you use any other strategies?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's my biggest one too, is to make it part of something that they're doing every single day.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then also just talking to the patient and really getting a sense of how they have interacted with products in the past, what were their turnoffs, try to use those um clues to select something that you have a good chance of them being satisfied with and compliant with.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I do something a little bit unorthodox, but I I have them, I find a uh SPF that my male patients like, you know, because a lot of male patients just complain so much about using sunscreen all the time.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, Hydro Boost has a great SPF sunscreen in that line.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll have them put, you know, a pea-sized or an English P-sized amount of the sunscreen and I'll and just add two or three drops of uh antioxidant serum to that, mix it together and apply all that together.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I am sure I'm mitigating the effects of both the sunscreen and the antioxidant, but at least we're getting both on the skin.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I found that to be uh to be somewhat helpful.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, makes me feel better, at least that I know they're you know, using antioxidants and sunscreen in the morning, which we know are so important.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: As we move to nighttime, gentlemen, what what kind of ingredients are you really focused on as as we head into the their nighttime routines?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um Terrence, if you want to get started with that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's when I'm trying to incorporate the retinol, uh, the retinoid products.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um I often, you know, we want to avoid irritation, so I often have them use it you know every other night in the beginning and pairing with a um with often a HA-based product like the Hydro Boost.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I start with that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: I try to keep it simple, you know, you know, two max maybe if they can tolerate the retinol, they're they're kind of oily and they're like they don't really need a moisturizer, then sometimes you know some of these guys can can fly with the uh just the the retinoid at night.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I pair that behavior with brushing your teeth.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I say my joke is the antioxidants are next to your shaving cream and your uh your retinoids next to your toothpaste uh in your in your cabinet.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: That way you don't remember, those kind of get paired together, uh, and then you can incorporate the sunscreen in the morning and the worships uh as needed.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So uh that's kind of the basics uh for for all my patients.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you know, we we are often talking about how men are less likely to adopt complicated regimens.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: I do find the past five years though men are a little bit more uh uh you know uh accepting of skincare, asking more questions, and I think you know social media has played a big role in that, particularly younger guys uh are are trying to be more proactive, which is great.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh um and and our older men are needing a little bit more hand holding.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I you know, I think that's why we're seeing the male skincare market kind of grow as it has.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think about DNA repair?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you consider at night at all?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you feel is the science there in your eyes, or do you not um you're not ready to kind of recommend those products, Terrence?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, and there's there's a you know, there's the DNA repair, there's regenerative products, you know, you can use the growth factor serums, you you know, you have topical exosomes.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a whole kind of rabbit hole.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so, you know, I try to retinoids are my start, and then depending on the sophistication and the proactive nature of the male patient or any of my male patients, I sometimes graduate, or they can't tolerate the retinoid.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, or then you can get really sophisticated and you start alternating.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I tend not to, I won't use those products at the same time.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm incorporating a DNA repair or a regenerative or collagen stimulating product, then I have to back off on the retinoid, or you can alternate.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But this is this is kind of more uh this is where you're this is kind of like the graduate school course of uh nighttime skincare, and it can get it can get complicated.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Where my female patients are like, give it to me.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is make it as complicated as possible.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I do have male patients that do that, but I don't I don't start them on that pathway.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so for you, okay, so hearing you loud and clear, then foundational antioxidant in the morning, moisturizer, retinol at night, that's the first step, and maybe many patients will stay on that step and still do really well.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're willing to go a little bit kind of beyond that, we have lots of different options.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Corey, do you agree with that approach?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that nighttime belongs to the retinol.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's your skin's chance to rejuvenate itself, to kind of rest and you know, re-up for the next day.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: And the nighttime is a perfect time to do that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: I pair it with the dental floss because you should be flossing your teeth every night, not just brushing them.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that encourages behaviors that, you know, will hopefully help each other to be stronger.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: DNA repair enzymes.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good question.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, I this is where I really start to get into products that do more than one thing.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, maybe I can find a sunscreen that has DNA repair products and get them to commit to that alone.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Then we're talking about, like Terrence said, I want you to show me that you can be consistent with three things before we start adding, you know, four, five, and six.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: If there's a particular um, what am I trying to say?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, need in your skin, uh, if you have dark spots or if you have redness, you know, people are going to be more motivated to treat something that they bring to your attention that they see as a problem.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: But as far as us adding things and then some of these regenerative products, um, the science I don't think is there 100% to um to really buy in, you know, to recommending that all the time.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a huge proponent of foundational consistency with products that have a proven track record, like retinols and hyaluronic acid.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny, guys.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: We we talk about how we kind of have to handhold our male patients through a skincare regimen and and treat them very carefully and make sure we're choosing the right products.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: But man, when you have a guy that comes in that's losing hair, they're willing to throw the kitchen sink at the hair.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the female patient for their face, the guys for their hair.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're like bringing that, you know, give it to me.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'll take anything.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just such a different um mindset, you know, of what guys are really focused on versus what women are focused on.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Not to say women aren't focused on hair loss, of course, that's a huge deal.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: But we get guys coming in earlier and earlier now, don't we?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Talking about hair loss.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like the new paradigm and expectation is that men are not supposed to lose hair anymore.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys agree.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that it's changing for sure.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of it is the rise of social media and just the societal um acceptance of men being allowed to even care about some of these things and some of these topics that they that they were more comfortable bringing into our office.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Hair loss for sure, but I think it's also because now we have some effective treatments.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: And also, and also, yeah, yeah, hair loss.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so with women, you know, the first signs of wrinkles or signs of photoaging is the first get giveaway for aging.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, with men, the number one age accelerator.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: So there's done studies looking at guys with a ton of wrinkles and brown spots with a good head of hair, and a guy with no wrinkles, no brown spots and balding, the balding guy looks older.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, for men in particular, a receding hairline is the number one age accelerator to others, age appearance, older age appearance to others.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So uh that really gets their attention at a young age.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh if it happens at a young age or any age, uh, especially if they start looking different than their contemporaries.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: So they're they're losing hair compared to their peers, that makes them look older and feel older, so they're gonna be very proactive.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas a wrinkle here and there um, you know, is not the end of the world for a guy.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you uh you can see some of these recent male celebrities have been critiqued getting facelifts and and getting rid of all their signs of periocular aging, and people are criticizing them because they almost look weird because there's no any evidence of aging.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas, you know, a female celebrity in the 60s gets a great facelift and everyone's celebrating and trying to find out our plastic surgeon.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, there is this, you know, a little signs of aging in the male face is is not necessarily in the world.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, whereas where but a nice head of hair is considered very attractive.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see why there's sometimes a uh a overemphasis on hair versus skin in a lot of our male patients.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it made me realize as you gentlemen were talking about this, that guys can't they, you know, early on in life they don't want to lose any hair because that's a sign of of aging.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And later on in life, they don't want to lose their virility and their and their um exercise tolerance and their energy because that's a sign to them themselves that they're aging.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so they get on testosterone, for example.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we know what testosterone can do to the skin, and that kind of changes our our paradigm of skincare as you know, the older men in particular get on testosterone and think.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Totally change, Corey, right?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, a hundred percent.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, testosterone, I I've seen it wreak havoc on acne.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen it cause, you know, additional hair growth in places that they don't necessarily want it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a push and a pull with everything.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and testosterone is is is um included in that in that number.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and the dose matters.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think testosterone could be just like anything could be managed appropriately, but I think a lot of you know, testosterone is one of those weird things where people go online and get mega doses, and and that's where you see the problem.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and guys, you know, being muscular is kind of addictive, and all of a sudden they're in their 40s and 50s and they want more muscle and they keep up in the dose, and that's where you run into problems.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of super therapeutic, super kind of physiologic doses of testosterone.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we start getting some major issues with cystic acne.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: We start getting issues with with sebum production and and that causing, you know, closed comodones on the face or blackheads on the face, and then we start to really have to up our retinol game to kind of keep up with all these different changes that are happening.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to that, we have seasonal changes that we expect throughout the year where summer is a little bit more oily and and you know, easier to hydrate versus winter where everything gets drier and you have to maybe change your retinol routine and your moisturizer routine as well.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot to deal with with guys, just like with women, as as they get near and enter menopause, skin changes dramatically.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Men tend to do that just exogenously with testosterone, and and we have to deal with that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um don't think that you can see your male patient one time, recommend a great foundational skincare regimen, and that's it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: You'll need to see them back to to tweak it because their life is going to change, and you never know what what what supplements and medications they're on that that can change their hormones.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so gentlemen, this has been great.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to kind of just round out the discussion.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And Corey, I know you you're the psychology major, and I think we would all benefit from your your knowledge.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I probably should have done that too when I was an undergrad.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um but kind of talking to uh a male patient who may be, you know, as we know, needs skincare, but can be very hesitant because of, you know, societal pressure or the way they grew up and how their uh you know father figure acted and and dealt with their own skin.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do you just talk us through how you talk to somebody like that?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as you said, you you kind of have to start with the basics, but how do you say, you know, it's it's time for you to start really taking care of your skin?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, most of these patients are in your office for one reason or another.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: So you have a captive audience and it's all about tying it to what brought them in.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: And if that concern isn't necessarily brought them in, maybe they're in the office for a skin cancer or pre-cancers.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you can use that as an opportunity to talk about how they can improve their overall skin health so that they can decrease the risk of these skin cancers.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you can, yeah, a lot of times they'll come with their wives and they're kind of in the back and they're a little bit shy about it, and we can break that down.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I tell them I meet them where they are.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to give them more than they are capable of handling.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: And even with this very basic three-step regimen, the Holy Trinity, I call it, sometimes we will start with one thing at a time because three products can be overwhelming to somebody who's never thought about this before.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that can also put them in the position of thinking that maybe it's not really right for them.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad that a lot of the companies are now designing their products in packaging that is a little more gender neutral so that that's not an additional um, you know, societal pressure on the patient to not want this particular um product on their shelf just because of the way that it looks.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we've gotten some help from different aspects of the industry, um, social media, the the marketing companies, they're actually going after men now and trying to meet them where they are.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's all about the trust in the patient and the relationship that you have and just allowing them to open up.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: But again, always go really slowly and try to get those clues from them to so you can meet them where they are.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Keeney, any other um pearls of wisdom here?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I try to get a gauge with any of my male patients what their main concern is.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think Corey mentioned that, is it, you know, skin health, like skin cancer is more of a medical, like, you know, what can we do to keep my skin healthy moving forward?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then I will kind of go down the science.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I tend to be very scientific and nerdy.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes men appreciate that rather than be like, this is great, it's gonna make your skin look amazing.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, look, you know, you're at high risk of skin cancer, men don't respond to skin cancer uh to UV light as well.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to do antioxidant sunscreen.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh and maybe I'll start there, like Corey, if this guy's never used anything, so that's two.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then if I have more aesthetically client gentleman who's like coming in for you know hair loss and he wants to talk about lasers and and whatnot, then then I'll kind of give him the the kind of the the the three-step program, you know, the retinal, the moisturizer, the antioxidant, and often off and uh sunscreen, uh, and start there.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then as I develop that relationship and see how they're adapting to that skincare regimen, then I can kind of increase the complexity of the products and the and and and see how you go.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you'd be surprised.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Some guys who like never used anything, they love it, and they want to, all right, what's next?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: I want to add.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: And some guys are very aesthetically inclined, they're doing a million procedures, but they're like, No, I can only do one or two products in that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to adapt.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was Corey, I I appreciated the comment of of the fact that packaging now has become more gender neutral with these products versus companies really focusing on men and trying to make products just for men.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I find those products just have so much fragrance in them to make them kind of musky or or woodsy in in their in their fragrance.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, they they you know, men tend to like lighter products as as Dr.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Keeney was talking about.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: They like the lotions versus the creams.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I just never had a lot of success with the male-focused products.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I I really I I appreciate and I hadn't really thought about it before you said it, that we really are moving towards more gender neutralization of the uh of the products that are great for for both genders.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You may just need to tweak them based on the gender, but otherwise, they're the same products, you may just need them to use them in a different way.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for that.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Guys, I learned a ton from this.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I got great pearls and great tips from both of you.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I know you you're both aesthetic experts working in different areas of the country, and I so appreciate you uh coming on to the Science of Skin podcast.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, my name is Dr.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh a podcast where we really try and stay at the cutting edge and try and give real life pearls and tips that you can use in your own practice.
• 28:51
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• 28:53
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• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's how people learn about us by by peers telling peers.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and this, we hope you enjoyed this podcast to learn a lot.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hartman, Dr.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Keeney, again, your wonderful dermatologists, great colleagues, and I so appreciate you coming on.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: The Skin Care Through the Ages series is sponsored by Neutrogena.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: For over 90 years, Neutrogena has advanced skin health for all skin types, with formulation expertise that combines scientifically proven ingredients and innovative technologies to deliver maximum efficacy and an unparalleled aesthetics experience.
• 29:37
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• 29:39
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