Latest / The Action Catalyst / You're the Leader, Now What? with Dr. Richard Winters (Leadership, Medicine, Wellbeing, Teams)

Transcript

You're the Leader, Now What? with Dr. Richard Winters (Leadership, Medicine, Wellbeing, Teams) · The Action Catalyst

• 0:00
  Dr. Richard Winters: Hey Stephanie, how are you?
• 0:00
  Stephanie Maas: Hey, Dr. Winters on well, how are you? Thank you
• 0:04
  so much for being with us super excited to have you. If it's
• 0:09
  okay with you, we'd love to dive in. Obviously, we know about
• 0:13
  your background and your book, there's so much relevance with
• 0:17
  what you bring to the table. And I'm going to start with, for me
• 0:20
  personally, the why behind things are often just as
• 0:24
  interesting as the content. So my first question, it's super
• 0:28
  simple. But why the book?
• 0:30
  Dr. Richard Winters: Why the book? Yeah, so So I'm an
• 0:32
  emergency physician, right. So on one hand, I'm taking care of
• 0:35
  patients. And then on the other hand, I also develop leaders and
• 0:38
  provide executive coaching for many of leaders internally and
• 0:41
  externally to Mayo Clinic. And I was noticing that as I was
• 0:46
  meeting with leaders, and really leaders at all levels, this
• 0:49
  could be the most senior leader or individuals just stepping
• 0:52
  into leadership roles, but there were common themes. And so
• 0:55
  instead of each coaching session talking about these themes, I
• 0:58
  thought, well, let me write a book about this. And I can put
• 1:01
  some of these things in there. And and the common theme, really
• 1:04
  is people moving from these places of expertise is these
• 1:08
  things they know very well they know how to do they know how to
• 1:11
  take care of and then once they become leaders finding that they
• 1:14
  can no longer necessarily like flex that expertise, like the
• 1:17
  they're used to walking into a room making a decision, and then
• 1:20
  moving on, as you're a leader that actually is very
• 1:23
  distracting and and oftentimes not the right way to go. And so
• 1:27
  how do you put down your expertise, kind of help
• 1:29
  facilitate and coach colleagues to be the best they can to move
• 1:32
  forward. And so that's what I tried to put into the book, also
• 1:35
  wanted something that was something where a leader could
• 1:37
  just open up the book and find, okay, I'm having some issues.
• 1:40
  There's this person that keeps interrupting What do I do? Or
• 1:43
  this individuals burned out? Or I have to run a retreat? What do
• 1:46
  I do so something that they can just open it up and find some
• 1:48
  tactics there?
• 1:49
  Stephanie Maas: So almost like a guidebook?
• 1:51
  Dr. Richard Winters: Yeah. And so as a coach, the things that I
• 1:54
  like to talk about are the really messy things like how
• 1:56
  people are making sense of this really complex world. And so I
• 1:59
  find that people face two different kinds of challenges.
• 2:01
  One, are these really messy kind of thorny, adaptive challenges?
• 2:06
  We're, all these things are coming together? And how do you
• 2:08
  process it? I love coaching around that stuff. And then
• 2:12
  there are things that you coached around that are really
• 2:13
  more like the technical challenges, which is like, I
• 2:15
  don't know how to do this. And so okay, then how are you going
• 2:18
  to learn how to do this, or you need to gain a skill, you need
• 2:21
  to gain some experience. And I prefer to jump to the more
• 2:25
  adaptive stuff. And so I tried to put a lot of the technical
• 2:28
  stuff like how do you actually do this stuff, the frameworks
• 2:30
  into the book. So really, it's as much to help the individual
• 2:33
  is to help myself to try to get into the things that I think are
• 2:35
  meatier, actually, for the leader to move forward?
• 2:38
  Stephanie Maas: Were there any byproducts or outcomes from the
• 2:42
  book that were different than what you would have thought or
• 2:44
  expected?
• 2:45
  Dr. Richard Winters: I mean, the great thing about writing in
• 2:47
  general is you go into writing a paragraph or some chapter with
• 2:52
  some intention. And then as you're doing that, you start to
• 2:55
  learn new things, you start to see your words, you start to
• 2:59
  think about how is that being, you know, thought about, and how
• 3:01
  do I best, say these things. And so I think the process of
• 3:04
  writing a book, just as, like, as we're running meetings, like,
• 3:08
  we run a meeting, and we hear ourselves saying this, and doing
• 3:11
  this, and then afterwards, we're like, I don't know that I wanted
• 3:13
  things to go that way. Or like, I'm talking to my teenage
• 3:16
  daughter, and I approach it in that way. I'm like, Okay, well,
• 3:19
  I've been to high school, and this is what I would do. If I
• 3:21
  were you. And then afterwards, I think she's probably not the
• 3:25
  best approach.
• 3:25
  Stephanie Maas: So hang on, are you also suggesting that there
• 3:28
  are guidelines for raising teenagers?
• 3:32
  Dr. Richard Winters: I think that guideline is we all as
• 3:34
  parents have expertise, but our teenagers are gonna say, I don't
• 3:38
  care what you say, I do what I want, you know that. And so how
• 3:42
  do you help them figure out the best thing for them, as opposed
• 3:45
  to, you know, from our own perspectives?
• 3:47
  Stephanie Maas: Very cool. Diving into a little bit of the
• 3:50
  meat of the book, you address this idea of burnout, as a
• 3:54
  society today, that is a huge topic, burnout, the Great
• 3:58
  Recession, quiet quitting. These are kind of the buzzwords that
• 4:02
  are, you know, in everybody's work life, professional life,
• 4:05
  how do you address them once they're there? Because
• 4:07
  unfortunately, I think the reason why we're hearing so much
• 4:09
  of this is it's already there. It's not about prevention. Share
• 4:12
  with us some of your suggestions around really dealing with that.
• 4:16
  Dr. Richard Winters: Yeah. So I think this is where frameworks
• 4:18
  are helpful, like, ways of like, how do we think about this, and
• 4:20
  there's a couple that popped to mind here. And so one is if
• 4:23
  you're on social media, and you're talking about burnout,
• 4:26
  it's oftentimes you get into the talk of what we have done, and
• 4:30
  what they have done and how they didn't listen, and how it
• 4:33
  oftentimes you get into this kind of victim mode. And so
• 4:37
  where it's blame, and this is what's being, and I think that's
• 4:40
  that is that is a space that is part of burnout, but let's like
• 4:43
  let's step back. And so as we're thinking about burnout, let's
• 4:46
  think first of all, it like we can be shouting about whoever
• 4:49
  the politician is, at the time, we can be shot up shouting about
• 4:52
  whoever the big name in the news is, or you know, the insurance
• 4:54
  companies or the lawyers or the doctors, but there's not a lot
• 4:57
  we can do about that. And so we're kind of like shouting into
• 5:00
  The fog and still feeling burned out between saying nothing, do
• 5:03
  nothing and shouting into the fog. There are three different
• 5:06
  levels of things that we can think about as we're approaching
• 5:08
  burnout. So the first one is just as we're working in
• 5:11
  organizations at this organizational level, is the
• 5:13
  organization working in a way that they think well being is
• 5:17
  important. And burnout is something that we'd like to try
• 5:19
  to decrease. If so, what's being done about this. And so I think
• 5:24
  about from a system level is, is the organization thinking about
• 5:27
  burnout and well being. And so as an emergency physician, and I
• 5:30
  go see a patient, there are vital signs. And so if I see a
• 5:33
  patient and try to make a diagnosis without looking at
• 5:36
  Vital Signs of not a very good emergency physician, for
• 5:39
  organizations, there are vital signs. And I think burnout, well
• 5:42
  being is one of those vital signs. And so we look at costs,
• 5:45
  and we look at revenue, and we look at quality, and those sorts
• 5:47
  of things. But we also need to be looking at the well being the
• 5:50
  burnout rates of individuals that we're employing, if we're
• 5:53
  not looking at that long standing, it's not going to be a
• 5:55
  healthy thing for the organization. This is part of
• 5:58
  our responsibility. This is a system that we are a part of,
• 6:01
  therefore, let's do something about it. And so that's
• 6:03
  organizational level. And so the second level I think about is
• 6:06
  inter individually, like how we're interacting with
• 6:08
  colleagues, and that is, on the one hand, are we working with
• 6:12
  people who were enjoying working with or having positive
• 6:14
  interactions with or not, it kind of stinks to be working
• 6:17
  with people that you don't enjoy working with? So that's one
• 6:20
  thing. And then the other thing is, how are we meeting together?
• 6:22
  How are we conducting our meetings and making decisions?
• 6:25
  And so we call these things meetings. But are they
• 6:27
  oftentimes meetings, people think they they like I hate
• 6:30
  meetings. But oftentimes, meetings are not meetings, like
• 6:33
  it's oftentimes tellings. And so how do we create a workplace
• 6:36
  where we're actually getting together? And we're talking
• 6:38
  about things and understanding what different people are
• 6:40
  perceiving? And how do we move forward. And then I think then
• 6:44
  the final layer is just individually like personally, on
• 6:48
  a personal level, there are kind of different things that we can
• 6:50
  look at. And so yes, meditation is important for for those who
• 6:54
  like that, certainly eating healthy and having healthy, you
• 6:57
  know, activities and working out and sleeping well, all those
• 7:00
  things are a base, I know that if I'm working the night shift
• 7:03
  in the IDI, and if I haven't eaten well, and someone was mean
• 7:05
  to me, that the next day, when my teenage daughter comes and
• 7:08
  talks to me, I may be a little bit more crusty than usual. And
• 7:11
  so if I'm keep having those sorts of days, it's likely I'm
• 7:14
  gonna be burned out. So that's, that is one part of of the
• 7:17
  individual thing. But the other part is also how we make sense
• 7:20
  of our own situation. And it's, and this is like, as I was
• 7:23
  talking about to begin with, like how we deal with the
• 7:24
  complexity of our world. And if we feel like we're trapped, then
• 7:28
  we're going to be trapped. I talked to leaders, for example,
• 7:31
  who have difficulty speaking up. So as a coach, I'd be trying to
• 7:34
  figure out how you might be able to speak up in ways that allow
• 7:37
  you to actually voice your opinion. There are other
• 7:39
  leaders, for example, who speak too much, they, whenever they
• 7:43
  say something, someone else disagrees with them, they're
• 7:45
  gonna repeat what they say they're going to talk about
• 7:47
  their past and all their experience. And so for those
• 7:49
  individuals, they don't like feeling that way. And certainly
• 7:52
  they're causing burnout, likely by silencing others, but for
• 7:55
  themselves, like their view of the world of me, being a leader
• 7:58
  means I need to be speaking up and talking over people is
• 8:01
  something that needs to be challenged. And so I think it's
• 8:04
  important for us to look at all three of these levels, the
• 8:06
  things we can change the things that we can change, that are a
• 8:09
  part of our organization that we were meeting together, and then
• 8:12
  ourselves, I give a talk to all the new Mayo Clinic physicians
• 8:15
  and scientists, and I'll ask them, I'll see how many of you
• 8:18
  can name the four chambers of the heart? And everyone raises
• 8:21
  their hand? What are the 12 cranial nerves, all of them will
• 8:25
  raise their hand and then we'll say, so what are the components
• 8:28
  of well being and their silence? They can't necessarily say what
• 8:32
  are the components of well being? And so would it be nice
• 8:35
  to have a language about this thing that we're trying to get
• 8:37
  to well being and as we're moving away towards burnout, and
• 8:41
  so for me, the thing that's helpful for me is thinking about
• 8:44
  this thing called psychological well being also called
• 8:46
  eudaimonic. well being, and this is different from hedonic. So
• 8:49
  hedonic well being is like last night, I went out and had drinks
• 8:52
  and ate a whole bunch. And that was great today, if you like,
• 8:54
  you know, this is bad, I don't feel so good. That's not the
• 8:57
  kind of well being I'm talking about. So it's psychological
• 8:59
  long term, like how we're actually assimilating the world
• 9:01
  and feeling about ourselves. I as a physician, like mnemonics,
• 9:05
  and so there's a mnemonic that I can put together called pagers
• 9:08
  that's around this, and so pagers P is purpose. And so this
• 9:12
  is a sense that we are aligned with the purpose of the
• 9:14
  organization and the values of the individuals that we're
• 9:17
  working with and meeting with and that are our friends. If
• 9:20
  that's not happening, it's we may start to feel burned out.
• 9:24
  And so that's a PA and pagers is autonomy. And this is the sense
• 9:28
  that we're being heard that actually our experience counts.
• 9:31
  And so as we have, as we perceive the environment, we
• 9:34
  have ideas for things that might change or that we would tweak
• 9:37
  that were being heard, and not being silenced, and that and
• 9:40
  that it's kind of safe for us to do so. Not that we want others
• 9:44
  to do exactly what we want. But if we're moving forward and we
• 9:47
  don't feel like we're being heard than our autonomy is hurt,
• 9:49
  and then so G is personal growth. Do we feel like today
• 9:54
  we're having an opportunity to be better than we were
• 9:57
  yesterday, we have an opportunity to grow and pursue
• 10:00
  idea is of interest. If not, that could hurt our well being
• 10:02
  and we might become burned out. He is environmental mastery, do
• 10:06
  we have the things the resources that we need to get the job
• 10:08
  done. And so if you go to work and you're being asked to do
• 10:11
  something, you don't have the resources to do something that
• 10:13
  can be a big driver of burnout and of hurting well being. And
• 10:17
  it may be as an as we're talking about recession, and we're in
• 10:20
  situations where things are more restricted, we don't have the
• 10:23
  revenue to do some things. And so that is E RS relations,
• 10:27
  positive relations with others, we've talked about that. And
• 10:29
  then self acceptance, our sense of being able to accept that we
• 10:33
  at times do things that we would not have wanted to have done, if
• 10:37
  we were to look retrospectively or even going forward that we
• 10:39
  make mistakes. And that can be paralyzing for individuals, if
• 10:43
  you get stuck in that space, like you're living in the past.
• 10:46
  And this can be a huge source of burnout. I think for all of us.
• 10:50
  I mean, we've had interactions with friends and colleagues
• 10:52
  where, geez, I wish I didn't do that. And our ability to Okay,
• 10:57
  learn from that, and accept that is so important for us moving
• 11:01
  forward and finding well being.
• 11:03
  Stephanie Maas: Okay. So I envision this book appealing to
• 11:08
  a couple of different types of leaders. And I think you've
• 11:10
  addressed some of this. So I'll try not to be too repetitive,
• 11:12
  you, you've got the folks that have been in leadership for a
• 11:15
  while, they're doing things a certain way, and it's just not
• 11:18
  working anymore, or maybe never was, but they're finally seeing
• 11:21
  the writing on the wall or whatever the case may be. And
• 11:23
  then you've got maybe somebody who is new. And oftentimes our
• 11:29
  own experiences frame, how we do things. So for example, if they
• 11:34
  had good leadership, they will try and implement what they were
• 11:38
  able to witness. And then I can also see folks who just have a
• 11:42
  strong desire to transition into leadership. And if this is a
• 11:46
  part of you want to be something that's a part of your future,
• 11:49
  here's what you can start learning about now to be
• 11:52
  effective when that day comes.
• 11:54
  Dr. Richard Winters: So think about so what is it to be a
• 11:56
  leader for some people, they want to be a leader so that they
• 11:58
  can have control. And so it means that they want to have
• 12:01
  followers because they have ideas of what should be done and
• 12:03
  just everyone fall behind them. I guess that is a form of
• 12:06
  leader. I mean, that is that's, that's difficult. And that's not
• 12:10
  the approach that I like to think of in that sort of space,
• 12:12
  you really need to have the answers. Things need to work out
• 12:15
  well. Like you have so much expertise, you know how to solve
• 12:19
  it. And I think that becomes quite uncomfortable. But
• 12:21
  oftentimes, we do find ourself in these positions where we're
• 12:24
  like, I don't know what these people are doing, I need to step
• 12:26
  up and like show though, and I think that's a good place to
• 12:29
  start. It really is it's authentic, and all of us can see
• 12:32
  opportunities where organizations are in our
• 12:34
  interactions with others can improve. And so I'll put that
• 12:36
  aside. Now you're you've become a leader, I think the really the
• 12:40
  definition of leader becomes not one of having followers, who are
• 12:43
  who you can kind of control and stuff. But really, I think of a
• 12:46
  leader is someone who develops leaders, someone who can help
• 12:48
  other individuals find their voice and find their pagers like
• 12:54
  their sense of purpose or sense of autonomy, they get the
• 12:56
  resources and things that they need. And so when you're doing
• 12:59
  that, you're really putting on a different hat. It's not the hat
• 13:03
  of the experts on who knows what to do. It's more of the hat of
• 13:05
  someone who's a facilitator and a coach and a teacher. That's
• 13:09
  how I think about leadership. It's those individuals that can
• 13:11
  do that. And so then also, I'm thinking about what is
• 13:14
  leadership? Is it a flick a formal title? Does it mean that
• 13:17
  you have to have a like I have to you have to be the CEO, or
• 13:20
  the director or the VP there is that that's that formal
• 13:23
  leadership structure where you have the power to hire and fire
• 13:26
  and but I think what's even more interesting to tap into for each
• 13:29
  of us is the our informal leadership roles. And that is
• 13:33
  the person who people go to during times of difficulty, I'm
• 13:36
  the person who's most likely to be the champion and move forward
• 13:38
  may not have any formal title, but they are a leader, they're
• 13:42
  the person who can help the group of individuals that they
• 13:45
  work with become better and work forward and find answers. I like
• 13:48
  that. I mean, I like to think about informal leadership, how
• 13:51
  can we be more like that those great informal leaders in our
• 13:54
  formal leadership roles? How do we how can we relieve some of
• 13:57
  the pressure of on ourselves to be able to have to know the
• 14:00
  answer in the moment and be able to collect and find the answer
• 14:03
  together from others. So that being said, I do want to put
• 14:06
  aside, there are times that a leader needs to make decisions,
• 14:08
  difficult decisions, and we need to step up and do that. But
• 14:11
  those are some of the times a lot of the other times are
• 14:14
  bringing people together and facilitating and how do we kind
• 14:16
  of adapt to those environments?
• 14:18
  Stephanie Maas: Fascinating. Let me shift gears slightly. One of
• 14:21
  the things you mentioned earlier, this self acceptance,
• 14:24
  to get there takes such an incredible amount of self
• 14:28
  awareness that I think a lot of us don't have or need years of
• 14:33
  therapy to get. You provide a platform, but it still can be so
• 14:37
  overwhelming. Talk to me about that.
• 14:39
  Dr. Richard Winters: Yeah. So I think there's a couple things
• 14:41
  like as I started learning to become a coach, one of my
• 14:45
  instructors said, like, the thing you like to say is you
• 14:48
  don't have to change if you want to stay the same, like so we
• 14:50
  don't have to change, right? Like, it's working out where
• 14:53
  you're at, that's fine. It's like you cannot coach someone
• 14:56
  who just wants to be where they're at. And so we have to
• 14:59
  assume that we're We're in this growth mindset sort of phase
• 15:02
  where we're looking for new ways of being better, more fulfilled
• 15:06
  and, and getting the things that we think, you know, that are
• 15:09
  important accomplished. And so on the one hand, we have to want
• 15:11
  to change, we have to want to have this kind of growth
• 15:13
  mindset. And on the other hand, we have to think that things
• 15:16
  don't change in giant leaps. They change in small steps. And
• 15:19
  so wouldn't it be so great if we could be like this, this this
• 15:22
  whole person we envision, which is perfect in the future, but
• 15:26
  it's not like we can just put on clothes and be that person we
• 15:29
  have to be trying things on, we have to kind of walk with them,
• 15:32
  and see what's comfortable and what's not comfortable and
• 15:34
  Thrillist experimentations be VP identifying those parts that we
• 15:38
  like, and the parts that we don't like and learning from
• 15:40
  there. So, so very much as we're developing as individuals, as
• 15:42
  we're developing as leaders, we are really kind of trying things
• 15:45
  on for a moment, which oftentimes feels quite
• 15:48
  inauthentic. Like I'm really good at numbers, you know,
• 15:51
  telling the story with graphs and things like that. And I feel
• 15:54
  like the numbers should just speak for themselves. Okay,
• 15:56
  well, that's great. But maybe individuals need to hear a
• 15:58
  story. And they need to have a more grounding of behind the
• 16:01
  purpose. And so then, as a leader who likes to talk about
• 16:04
  numbers, I need to somehow learn now how to how to tell these
• 16:07
  stories, which it's a process just to get to there. As I was a
• 16:11
  kid, when I was in high school, I'd make Miss mixtapes and I'd
• 16:15
  like try to find like the best songs right to put out there.
• 16:18
  And you know, some songs work, some didn't. And the next
• 16:20
  mixtape would be better. And writing the book. It's almost
• 16:22
  like I'm a, I'm putting a mixtape together. It's like
• 16:25
  being a producer. And I look at those individuals, like there's
• 16:27
  producers like Rick Rubin and Brian Eno, who can bring a bunch
• 16:31
  of individuals very talented individuals into a room and have
• 16:34
  them producing like these wonderful albums that are
• 16:36
  platinum selling their ability to take all these different
• 16:39
  ideas, put them together, and like create something really
• 16:42
  cool is I think what we're all doing as leaders, we're like
• 16:45
  finding these different songs, these different things, these
• 16:48
  different programs that we take, and we're starting to kind of
• 16:51
  try them on and figure them out, play them in our own minds, and
• 16:53
  then see how they work. Oftentimes, also, leaders will
• 16:57
  come and they'll have this idea that this is something that
• 16:59
  needs to change. Now I'm gonna push it, I'm gonna push it, it's
• 17:02
  not working, why isn't anyone listening? I think it is
• 17:05
  important to kind of step back and just look at our
• 17:07
  relationship with time, oftentimes, we're thinking about
• 17:10
  things that we want to be changed by tomorrow or next
• 17:12
  week. But all we need to do is just step back a little bit and
• 17:15
  think about next quarter or next year, and how things might be
• 17:18
  different. And so think about Sisyphus, like pushing the rock
• 17:22
  up the hill. Like he's rolling back down. I also imagine
• 17:25
  Sisyphus is in the subdivision that's changing. And all of a
• 17:28
  sudden, this boulder by pushes that mountain away. And then
• 17:31
  this was like, Oh, I can roll this rock easily. Sometimes we
• 17:34
  just need the patience to let the rock be moved, you know, the
• 17:36
  hill to be mowed down by itself?
• 17:38
  Stephanie Maas: Oh, I think that is hopefully something we'll
• 17:41
  highlight. Sometimes we just need to have the patience to let
• 17:44
  the rock be moved. Okay, if we were having this conversation
• 17:49
  five years from now, what do you think the biggest challenges to
• 17:53
  leadership are going to be in five years from now? What's
• 17:55
  coming?
• 17:56
  Dr. Richard Winters: Yeah, I think the biggest challenges for
• 17:58
  leaders all along since the onset of humanity, I would say,
• 18:02
  is just dealing with complexity. And we were dealing in these
• 18:05
  environments, where the things we're considering the amount of
• 18:08
  unknowns are so high, it's rapidly evolving. And so how do
• 18:13
  we bring individuals together amidst these unknowns, like to
• 18:17
  try to move forward with these goals we have. And then as we're
• 18:19
  doing that, even like the outcomes of the goals, we cannot
• 18:22
  predict, because it things are changing. So fast, things are so
• 18:25
  volatile, and complex, those are going to be the problems of the
• 18:28
  leaders as as we move forward. And I think even more so if
• 18:33
  you're in an organization that's wanting to be successful, how do
• 18:37
  we help the individuals that we hire, you know, I'm different
• 18:40
  now than when I was 20 years old, I'm different than when I
• 18:42
  was a baby, like, I can do different, I was just able to,
• 18:45
  like, move from crawling to standing. At that time, I was
• 18:47
  probably wasn't gonna be a good leader. And so now I'm 20, you
• 18:50
  know, and I'm just like, I don't know, like second year of
• 18:53
  college, or whatever that is, I'm probably a better leader now
• 18:56
  than I was then. And each of us is we're in organizations, like
• 19:00
  we have these arcs of our career where hopefully, we're getting
• 19:02
  better this month versus the previous month, our best leaders
• 19:06
  were able to understand that. And so a lot of times, we're
• 19:10
  talking about disengagement, and quiet quitting and things like
• 19:13
  that, right now, it may be that this individual is at a moment
• 19:16
  in their life where they need to maybe less focus this week, this
• 19:20
  month, this quarter on this work task, and they need to be
• 19:24
  focusing on family or they need to be focusing on these other
• 19:27
  things that are going on their life, but they need to be
• 19:28
  focusing on this thing of personal growth that's going to
• 19:31
  they're going to be learning a whole bunch from are we going to
• 19:33
  be leading organizations in the future? And I think not where
• 19:36
  individuals are commodities, where, okay, you're disengaged,
• 19:40
  you're out of here, there are going to be some organizations
• 19:42
  like that. But I don't think that people are going to want to
• 19:44
  work as much in those organizations. It'll, it'll
• 19:46
  fulfill some needs. But for others, those organizations that
• 19:50
  have less churn that have individuals who are able to kind
• 19:53
  of be themselves in the moment, we're going to find ways of
• 19:55
  finding that just people throughout their lives
• 19:57
  throughout their professional lives are are changing, and
• 20:00
  we're going to be able to help them adapt, we're going to be
• 20:02
  able to give them a little space when they need to, we're going
• 20:04
  to have them step in. It's not like we're not going to be
• 20:06
  producing revenue and producing our goals goals during each
• 20:09
  moment. But we're going to be able to identify and help
• 20:11
  individuals kind of where they're at to help them go from
• 20:14
  where their ads to where they want to be in the future. And so
• 20:16
  it's just, it's really more about a holistic view of how
• 20:19
  we're working together and how together we can accomplish these
• 20:22
  really difficult things and volatile and uncertain spaces.
• 20:26
  Stephanie Maas: I think, actually, what you just said,
• 20:27
  there's some pretty neat foreshadowing, again, it's what
• 20:29
  we've seen coming is that holistic approach, and that's a
• 20:33
  perfect analogy with medicine. It's not just treating the
• 20:37
  symptoms. Anything we haven't talked about that you would like
• 20:43
  to share, you think would be important to share?
• 20:45
  Dr. Richard Winters: I think it's important, again, for us to
• 20:47
  recognize the importance of our expertise, our experiences, the
• 20:51
  things like we've been there. And we've done that, and how
• 20:53
  much this adds to our efficacy and our ability to get things
• 20:56
  done. But also on the other hand, to be able to then
• 20:59
  separate from that, and move forward in ways where we're not
• 21:01
  necessarily leveraging that. And that really is more as being a
• 21:04
  coach and a facilitator. And so I think just as an experiment,
• 21:07
  as someone comes up to you, and they're asking you a difficult
• 21:10
  question, maybe how do you in that moment, not give the
• 21:14
  answer? How do you in that moment, not think about what's
• 21:16
  happened to you in the past? And like be going through a year
• 21:19
  kind of database of experiences? How do you in that moment, just
• 21:23
  actually best help that individual who's talking to you
• 21:26
  understand their database of moments to reflect on what
• 21:29
  things are like for them and how they're experiencing it? And
• 21:32
  then given that, what might they do? And then given that, what
• 21:35
  will they do moving forward? I think on a one to one
• 21:38
  perspective, that's powerful. And then I think, on the group
• 21:41
  level, the same thing happens, where we face these really
• 21:44
  difficult issues, staffing, we need to change the product we
• 21:49
  need to improve. I mean, there's like so many things that we
• 21:51
  face. And oftentimes, as leaders, we go in us, or maybe
• 21:55
  just a small executive group, and decide like in the moment
• 21:58
  based on our database of experience, what needs to be
• 22:00
  done, but how powerful it can be during certain moments to to be
• 22:04
  asking that our colleagues like so what are your database of
• 22:08
  moments? What are your percept perspectives about this, and
• 22:10
  then only after you receive kind of developing the shared
• 22:13
  reality, this this shared perspective of what's going on,
• 22:16
  which includes all the agreements, all the
• 22:18
  disagreements, all the fears and worries, but really a much
• 22:22
  better perspective of the total, like, challenge ahead. Only
• 22:26
  after we find that do we start to think about what we might do
• 22:29
  and what we will do moving forward. And so it's really how
• 22:32
  do we as individuals, as leaders, as parents, as friends,
• 22:36
  kind of stopped being like reflexive robotics, like based
• 22:40
  on our experiences and in the past, and what we think should
• 22:43
  happen and start being more just open to listening and seeking to
• 22:48
  understand and discovery before we start to move forward.
• 22:52
  Stephanie Maas: Thank you.
• 22:53
  Dr. Richard Winters: Yeah, cool. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for
• 22:55
  having me. Great meeting you.