Transcript

#62 Stefano · Heavyweight

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin, Karen, I'm I'm sorry to be intruding like this,
0:29
Speaker 1: you know, just calling up at it O.
0:32
Speaker 2: Hi, oh hi, sorry, my mom called on.
0:36
Speaker 1: So then you just you just drop whoever you're talking to.
0:39
Speaker 2: That's the kind of daughter.
0:40
Speaker 3: I am not.
0:41
Speaker 1: Very professional, but okay, yes, it actually is. Well, because
0:51
Speaker 1: you know you're a you're a dear friend of Jackie.
0:53
Speaker 1: So I thought maybe you know, I would turn to
0:55
Speaker 1: you with my concern. I I've been trying to call
0:58
Speaker 1: Jackie and she doesn't seem to be accepting my phone calls.
1:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I could confirm that she's okay, okay,
1:08
Speaker 2: Oh that's good, thankful, Oh, thank god. Yeah, I could
1:11
Speaker 2: confirm that, and I can confirm that she's annoyed by
1:18
Speaker 2: your persistence that I could confirm, okay, And I don't know.
1:24
Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. Maybe she just
1:27
Speaker 2: feels that you're using her, well, I am, well, maybe
1:32
Speaker 2: she doesn't like.
1:33
Speaker 1: That, yeah, because she wants to be the user.
1:35
Speaker 2: Right, that's an excellent point you've got there.
1:39
Speaker 1: Okay, Jackie, if you're out there listening, which let's face it,
1:44
Speaker 1: you're probably not. If I am using you, it's on
1:48
Speaker 1: behalf of America in Canada, of course, from Pushkin Industries.
2:01
Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight Today's episode. Stephano
2:13
Speaker 1: right after the break. It's impossible to talk to Debbie
2:25
Speaker 1: without hearing stories about her mom, Anita. Anita was Italian,
2:30
Speaker 1: and in every story it's her autemismo for roach or
2:34
Speaker 1: fierce optimism that takes center stage.
2:38
Speaker 4: Truly, for her, the glass was beyond half full. It
2:42
Speaker 4: was always full, even if there was a drop of
2:44
Speaker 4: water in there, Jonathan, it was just always full.
2:47
Speaker 1: As an example, Debbie tells the story of how Anita
2:51
Speaker 1: comforted some cousins who were concerned their child was crying
2:54
Speaker 1: too much.
2:55
Speaker 4: And my mom said, no, you don't have to worry.
2:57
Speaker 4: She's like me. I was like that for years. I
3:00
Speaker 4: was always crying very easily. My mom was around seventy
3:04
Speaker 4: eight years old at the time. And they said, did
3:06
Speaker 4: you grow out of it? And my mom goes, yeah,
3:08
Speaker 4: and they said when and she said about two years ago,
3:11
Speaker 4: So you know, they had something to hope for.
3:16
Speaker 1: Anita died in twenty twenty, and her death was hard
3:18
Speaker 1: on Debbi. She misses her mom a lot and thinks
3:22
Speaker 1: about her a lot, and perhaps because of this, she
3:25
Speaker 1: finds herself returning to the one Anita story that has
3:28
Speaker 1: yet to find its happy ending, and that is the
3:32
Speaker 1: story of the airplane and the baby. Anita grew up
3:40
Speaker 1: in a part of Italy called Eastria, and after World
3:43
Speaker 1: War Two the region was seated to Yugoslavia. Suddenly, her
3:48
Speaker 1: family was under oppressive socialist rule. So Anita and her
3:52
Speaker 1: brother hatched an escape plan. They double layered their clothing,
3:55
Speaker 1: borrowed a motor boat, and sailed into the Adriatic Sea.
3:59
Speaker 1: Anita could easily have drowned.
4:01
Speaker 4: But my mom said, you know, you're young, and you
4:04
Speaker 4: don't think about that kind of stuff. You just think
4:06
Speaker 4: about freedom.
4:09
Speaker 1: And her brother made it to Italy, where the police
4:11
Speaker 1: took them to a refugee camp. In the coming years,
4:14
Speaker 1: Anita would live in several such camps.
4:16
Speaker 4: When I would talk to her other friends about it,
4:19
Speaker 4: her friends would say, oh, it was hard, you know
4:21
Speaker 4: it was. The food wasn't good most of the time,
4:24
Speaker 4: and we didn't have money. But you would never have
4:28
Speaker 4: known that. Talking to her, she was just eternally optimistic.
4:33
Speaker 4: She said, it was wonderful. They opened the doors and
4:36
Speaker 4: I saw so many people that I knew. There we'd
4:38
Speaker 4: play cards, and we'd drink, and you know, the girls
4:41
Speaker 4: would do each other's hair and just had fun.
4:45
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty nine, Anita got her chance to leave
4:48
Speaker 1: the camps a visa to the United States, and so
4:52
Speaker 1: all alone, Anita set out to America.
4:55
Speaker 4: So she was getting ready to get on the flight
4:58
Speaker 4: from Rome to New York. And there was an adoption
5:03
Speaker 4: agency that were taking children from orphanages from Italy to
5:08
Speaker 4: the United States. And they asked my mom if she
5:12
Speaker 4: would babysit this little boy, this little two year old boy,
5:15
Speaker 4: and she said, of course. Did she learn his name, Stephano, It's.
5:24
Speaker 5: Anita, and you have I got a picture of a
5:28
Speaker 5: little baby Stefano.
5:31
Speaker 1: This is Anita in a video Debbie filmed a year
5:34
Speaker 1: before her mom's death. In the video, Anita is clutching
5:37
Speaker 1: a photograph taken during the flight.
5:40
Speaker 5: So you look at how beautiful he is.
5:43
Speaker 1: The photograph is oddly composed, almost like it was taken
5:46
Speaker 1: by accident when the camera was set down. Anita and
5:49
Speaker 1: Stefano's faces are both partially cut off, but you can
5:52
Speaker 1: tell that Anita is smiling big with the two year
5:55
Speaker 1: old Stefano peaceful in her arms.
5:58
Speaker 6: How old were you there?
5:59
Speaker 5: Twenty four? Look at how beautiful and sixty years ago
6:03
Speaker 5: nineteen fifty nine.
6:05
Speaker 1: It was a long flight to New York and they
6:06
Speaker 1: had to stop three times to refuel, so for eighteen hours,
6:10
Speaker 1: Anita held Stephano close.
6:13
Speaker 4: I think she just fell in love with him. She
6:15
Speaker 4: just fell in love with that little baby. She said,
6:17
Speaker 4: he was the best baby you could ever see.
6:19
Speaker 5: How good baby heels. He's the best baby. It was
6:23
Speaker 5: very happy. I was happy, Eddie. The baby was heavy.
6:27
Speaker 1: It was Anita's first time on an airplane and Stephano's two.
6:30
Speaker 1: They were both leaving behind everyone they knew and setting
6:33
Speaker 1: out alone for a new life in America. Clutching this
6:37
Speaker 1: baby over the ocean, the two of them smiling at
6:39
Speaker 1: each other. Anita and Stefano bonded. They were both off
6:43
Speaker 1: to what she hoped was a better life.
6:53
Speaker 4: They get to New York, she was holding the baby
6:57
Speaker 4: and the agency came up to her and then just
7:00
Speaker 4: took him right out of her arms. She said, they
7:02
Speaker 4: didn't say anything to her, They.
7:04
Speaker 5: Just take him away from me, and he started crying.
7:09
Speaker 5: He don't know nobody.
7:11
Speaker 1: There was no chance to even say goodbye.
7:13
Speaker 5: And I was crying him. I would crying out.
7:16
Speaker 6: Yeah, of course that's sad.
7:19
Speaker 5: It was like my baby.
7:21
Speaker 4: She would cry. She would cry when she talk about it.
7:25
Speaker 1: Even after raising two kids of her own, Anita never
7:28
Speaker 1: stopped talking about the child who was hers for a day.
7:32
Speaker 1: All through her life, even into her last years, everyone
7:35
Speaker 1: heard about Stephano. Anita continued to hope, always needed to
7:39
Speaker 1: believe that Stefano's life was a good one.
7:42
Speaker 4: She would say, I wonder where he is. Was he
7:45
Speaker 4: in a good home? What was his life like?
7:48
Speaker 5: I would like to know him and see how he's doing.
7:51
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, maybe you're far away. I don't know where
7:54
Speaker 5: are you. I was thinking all this year about him
7:57
Speaker 5: all the time. Yeah, and I love you even if
8:00
Speaker 5: I don't see you too long.
8:02
Speaker 6: That's a nice story, and I don't know if you
8:05
Speaker 6: understand it. I think so.
8:09
Speaker 1: When Anita was still alive, there were several attempts at
8:12
Speaker 1: finding Stefano. Anita sought out help from various friends and family,
8:16
Speaker 1: but no one was able to get anywhere. They even
8:19
Speaker 1: looked into a TV show that reunited adoptees with their
8:22
Speaker 1: birth parents, but Anita wasn't Stefano's birth parent. But then
8:26
Speaker 1: One day, Debbie brought up the subject of Stefano with
8:29
Speaker 1: her close friend Lindsay.
8:31
Speaker 4: Lindsay starts plugging stuff into the computer and she said, up,
8:34
Speaker 4: I found him.
8:35
Speaker 1: Hang on, but did you even have his last name?
8:39
Speaker 4: No?
8:40
Speaker 1: And who's this, Lindsay. Does she work for the state
8:42
Speaker 1: department or something? You would think as someone who makes
8:46
Speaker 1: his living tracking people down, like a nice version of
8:49
Speaker 1: dog the bounty hunter, A dog the bounty hunter who
8:53
Speaker 1: rather than dragging people off to jail, drags them off
8:56
Speaker 1: to heal. I'm professionally piqued by this, Lindsay.
9:04
Speaker 7: I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people.
9:09
Speaker 1: This is Lindsay.
9:10
Speaker 7: I'm the person that people go to if you want
9:13
Speaker 7: to know something.
9:15
Speaker 1: The only information she knew about Stefano was his age
9:18
Speaker 1: and the date of the flight. But with that she
9:21
Speaker 1: found Stefano's immigration record, which had the name of the
9:24
Speaker 1: man on it who was set to adopt him. From there,
9:27
Speaker 1: Lindsay found the adoptive father's obituary.
9:30
Speaker 7: Under the list of surviving children, there was the name Stephen,
9:34
Speaker 7: and you know, we put that together.
9:36
Speaker 1: As Stephaniel Stefano. In America, Stefano became Stephen, although Lindsay
9:47
Speaker 1: now had Stephano's full name, she had no way of
9:49
Speaker 1: getting in touch with them. She call Hied social media,
9:52
Speaker 1: but he was nowhere to be found. She did find
9:55
Speaker 1: his two brothers, though, so she messaged one.
9:58
Speaker 7: He said that it was a very nice story, but
10:01
Speaker 7: he doesn't speak to Stephen anymore.
10:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And when Lindsay tried the other brother.
10:07
Speaker 7: It was basically this thing that they don't speak either.
10:12
Speaker 4: And then Lindsay dug a little deeper and it looked
10:16
Speaker 4: like he might have a criminal record.
10:19
Speaker 1: Debian Lindsay couldn't see what Stephen's criminal record was. It
10:23
Speaker 1: just came up as a flag on one of those
10:25
Speaker 1: people finding websites. But the reality of what they were
10:28
Speaker 1: doing suddenly sank in. They were looking for a potentially
10:32
Speaker 1: dangerous stranger to introduce to the elderly Anita, and it
10:36
Speaker 1: gave them pause.
10:37
Speaker 7: That paired with them not speaking to his brothers. Just
10:41
Speaker 7: we weren't there. Maybe this was our bapest way to
10:44
Speaker 7: go about this, and we wanted to take some time
10:47
Speaker 7: to kind of figure out a game plan.
10:49
Speaker 1: The time passed and no game plan emerged. Any year later,
10:53
Speaker 1: Anita died, never having gotten to reunite with Stefano. After
11:04
Speaker 1: the loss of a parent, there's often an attempt to
11:07
Speaker 1: honor a final wish, donating to a beloved cause or
11:11
Speaker 1: scattering ashes in a favorite place. But Debbie feels a
11:14
Speaker 1: need to fulfill a different kind of wish on her
11:17
Speaker 1: mother's behalf. She wants to know that Stefano is okay.
11:22
Speaker 7: Anita's death was very, very, very difficult, and I think
11:26
Speaker 7: it's healing for Debbie if we find him, and I
11:29
Speaker 7: think that she needs this more than b thinks she does.
11:34
Speaker 1: Lindsay says, Debbie never got the chance to fully grieve
11:37
Speaker 1: Anita after she died COVID hit. Then her father developed
11:41
Speaker 1: dementia and Debbie became his full time caretaker. Then her
11:44
Speaker 1: father died.
11:45
Speaker 7: Just always onto this next draining saying, you know, and
11:51
Speaker 7: since it is honoring this wish of her mom, it's
11:55
Speaker 7: helping her feel And I can just see that when
11:57
Speaker 7: we talk about the story, she's so hopeful and she's
12:02
Speaker 7: so determined, and this is something that I haven't seen
12:07
Speaker 7: with Debbie in a very long time.
12:09
Speaker 1: And for Debbie, she hopes this story might mean something
12:12
Speaker 1: to Stefano too.
12:14
Speaker 4: Maybe he needs to know that this woman thought of
12:18
Speaker 4: him for most of his life, loving him from a distance,
12:23
Speaker 4: wondering about him, praying for him. I mean, what a
12:27
Speaker 4: thing to know after the break, Let's find him. Let's
12:37
Speaker 4: find that guy, that little Stefano.
13:01
Speaker 1: So so here we are, here, we are, my producer,
13:05
Speaker 1: Khalila Houlton, I gather in the studio or mission is twofold.
13:10
Speaker 1: We want to find a way to contact Stephen. But
13:13
Speaker 1: before we do, we want to figure out what Stephen's
13:16
Speaker 1: mysterious criminal record actually is. Khalila starts tiptapping away on
13:21
Speaker 1: her computer while I settle in and offer the kind
13:24
Speaker 1: of input that only an investigative journalist with a decades
13:28
Speaker 1: long track record can I've gone through different phases in
13:32
Speaker 1: my life where a V neck was more appealing than
13:35
Speaker 1: a crew neck. It kind of goes it's always darkest
13:37
Speaker 1: before the dawn? Is that true? I was like to Augie,
13:39
Speaker 1: I was like, smell how good that is? And He's
13:41
Speaker 1: like that smells disgusting. I was like, I could think
13:43
Speaker 1: of other times when it's darker. It's probably darker at night.
13:46
Speaker 1: My gal don't do much talking dances even when she's
13:49
Speaker 1: walking on ontok Oh, look at that little squirrel. Oh,
13:52
Speaker 1: here's criminal traffic, and then finally we find the record
13:57
Speaker 1: we've been looking for. Do you why uh okay? In
14:03
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. That was a long time ago, so
14:06
Speaker 1: there's really no other criminal past except to that's all
14:09
Speaker 1: I'm seeing. Boy, that's sad that that was enough to
14:13
Speaker 1: kind of make them drop the whole thing.
14:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, please leave your message for five.
14:20
Speaker 1: Khalila digs up some possible phone numbers for Stephen online,
14:24
Speaker 1: and in the weeks to come, I leave numerous voicemails.
14:27
Speaker 1: Hi there, I'm looking for a Stephen. I call so
14:30
Speaker 1: many numbers. I hear automated messages entirely new to me.
14:34
Speaker 4: The number is in service?
14:36
Speaker 1: Is in service?
14:37
Speaker 4: By your call again.
14:39
Speaker 1: None of these phone numbers lead me to Stephen. They
14:42
Speaker 1: just lead me to different robotic voices.
14:44
Speaker 3: You're calling out, all right?
14:46
Speaker 7: That's it.
14:47
Speaker 3: Yeah.
14:53
Speaker 1: With the telephone having crapped on our heads, we decide
14:56
Speaker 1: that what we need is an even older form of communication,
15:00
Speaker 1: the US Postal Service. Khalila uncovers three possible mailing addresses
15:05
Speaker 1: for Steven. So we write three letters and drop them
15:09
Speaker 1: in the mailbox, letting them fly off into the world
15:12
Speaker 1: like three hopeful birds. And then time as is its
15:16
Speaker 1: wont passes two years go by two years. It's unlikely
15:27
Speaker 1: the average podcast listener's brain, raised on podcasts about celebs,
15:32
Speaker 1: elk Steak and the science of why people go to
15:34
Speaker 1: the bathroom, can easily conceptualize the passage of so much time.
15:40
Speaker 1: If this was a video podcast, I'd stare into the
15:43
Speaker 1: camera with my patented deadpan affect as my beard and
15:47
Speaker 1: fingernails grew in time lapse. But since it isn't a
15:50
Speaker 1: video podcast, I present you an audiophonic aid that was
16:08
Speaker 1: only ten seconds. Now imagine two years, two years of
16:13
Speaker 1: refreshing my inbox and calling my answering service to no avail,
16:18
Speaker 1: and then Debbie and I check back in Where are
16:21
Speaker 1: you right now? It appears that you have a ladder
16:23
Speaker 1: behind you.
16:24
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm at home.
16:26
Speaker 1: And where does this ladder lead to?
16:28
Speaker 3: Oh?
16:29
Speaker 1: Nowhere, it's ladder to.
16:32
Speaker 4: We're going nowhere with this ladder.
16:34
Speaker 1: I hope we're going somewhere with this story. I hope
16:36
Speaker 1: we're not on a ladder to nowhere. It seems Debbie
16:39
Speaker 1: hasn't given up on Stefano. She tells me Lindsay found
16:42
Speaker 1: some of the same phone numbers we did, So Debbie
16:45
Speaker 1: two tried calling and leaving messages. No one ever called back,
16:49
Speaker 1: though still Debbie wants to keep trying, and so more
16:53
Speaker 1: letters are sent, more voicemails left, and two more months
16:57
Speaker 1: go by. I've completely given up hope. And then one
17:04
Speaker 1: afternoon I finally hear from Stephen. You did, I did?
17:09
Speaker 1: You did?
17:09
Speaker 6: I did?
17:10
Speaker 4: Wow?
17:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, sucked. I wasn't holding out a lot of hope
17:14
Speaker 1: me either. I tell Debbie about the phone call. How
17:20
Speaker 1: Stephen told me he dismissed my letters as a scam.
17:23
Speaker 1: I asked if he'd be open to a conversation with Debbie,
17:26
Speaker 1: but he said he doesn't have transportation, and when I
17:29
Speaker 1: said we could do a video call, he said he
17:31
Speaker 1: hasn't a cell phone nor a computer, and he quote
17:35
Speaker 1: doesn't follow the Internet. But eventually he said he'd be
17:39
Speaker 1: okay with a telephone call.
17:40
Speaker 6: I would love her.
17:42
Speaker 4: I think it's a gift that he doesn't realize.
17:44
Speaker 1: You know, So he is available one o'clock green Mountain time,
17:50
Speaker 1: So that would be like, oh, sorry, mountain time, Mountain time,
17:53
Speaker 1: not green Mountain After the break, Stephano at long last,
17:59
Speaker 1: his green Mountain time A thing sounds like a coffee thing.
18:02
Speaker 1: That would be three o'clock in St Cafe, So one
18:06
Speaker 1: o'clock Green Mountain. The next day, at one pm, Green
18:24
Speaker 1: Mountain time, Debbie and I convene. Okay, I'll give him
18:27
Speaker 1: a call, I'll phone him all and I'll introduce you guys.
18:31
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, Hello.
18:42
Speaker 1: Hello, Stephen. Y Hi, it's Jonathan phoning. I'm here with Debbie.
18:49
Speaker 3: Oh you are Hi, Stephen?
18:51
Speaker 4: How are you?
18:53
Speaker 8: I'm fine? How are you?
18:57
Speaker 4: I'm good. I'm really good, and I'm really excited to
19:01
Speaker 4: hear your voice and to know that you're here right now. So, Stephen.
19:13
Speaker 4: My mom her name was Anita.
19:16
Speaker 1: And Debbie lays it all out for Steven, the plane ride,
19:19
Speaker 1: the love Anita felt for him, and how that love
19:22
Speaker 1: endured for Anita's entire life.
19:24
Speaker 4: You were always on her mind for many, many years
19:28
Speaker 4: and told many people about you.
19:31
Speaker 1: Well.
19:32
Speaker 3: God bless your mom.
19:35
Speaker 8: I wish she had adopted me.
19:38
Speaker 4: I think she would have liked that too.
19:45
Speaker 1: Anita always wanted to know whether, after being taken from
19:48
Speaker 1: her arms, Stephano's life had been a good one. So
19:51
Speaker 1: we started at the beginning with Steven's adoption.
19:54
Speaker 9: My foster parents told me.
19:58
Speaker 8: Roughly at the age of eight.
20:02
Speaker 1: You call them your foster parents. Did they adopt you?
20:05
Speaker 8: Yes?
20:06
Speaker 1: Were they good people?
20:09
Speaker 8: I mean there was three squares a day.
20:14
Speaker 9: I mean there was no abuse or anything like that.
20:20
Speaker 8: I don't mind. Uh lickens is what my dad called it.
20:26
Speaker 1: Did you say, Lincoln?
20:28
Speaker 8: Yeah? About It wasn't abuse.
20:34
Speaker 9: It was just for disappoint purposes?
20:39
Speaker 8: Was that?
20:40
Speaker 1: Was that? Roth?
20:42
Speaker 8: Well for a little kid, it is?
20:46
Speaker 1: Did did you? But did you feel loved?
20:50
Speaker 8: Yes? I did?
20:54
Speaker 9: Oh I remember from childhood. Out of the friends and
21:01
Speaker 9: they turned out to be drug addicts. I turned out nominal.
21:09
Speaker 1: What do you mean when you say nominal?
21:12
Speaker 9: Well, I have a serious alcohol problem. Okay, I know
21:18
Speaker 9: I sound like I've been drinking, but I haven't. I
21:24
Speaker 9: don't have anything here. I was pretty much known as
21:31
Speaker 9: a boozer.
21:33
Speaker 1: Back in the day. Stephen says the drinking got bad,
21:36
Speaker 1: which led to the duy.
21:38
Speaker 9: You don't think when you drink, you get behind the
21:42
Speaker 9: wheel of a vehicle drunk is preposterous.
21:49
Speaker 3: Did your father?
21:50
Speaker 4: Did your adoptive father do something similar?
21:54
Speaker 8: He drank, but not in excess.
21:58
Speaker 9: I never saw him on a drunken stupor well, nobody's
22:04
Speaker 9: ever seen me.
22:07
Speaker 8: I won't watch them.
22:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you drink Alone.
22:13
Speaker 9: Yes, that song by that one guy, George sirgood, I
22:19
Speaker 9: Drink Alone reminds me of me.
22:24
Speaker 1: As the conversation goes on, Debbie grows increasingly quiet. So
22:28
Speaker 1: I do my best to draw Steven out. Did you
22:31
Speaker 1: did you get married?
22:34
Speaker 8: No, I've never been married. I've had relationships that they
22:41
Speaker 8: come and go.
22:43
Speaker 1: Would you say that you that you've been in love?
22:47
Speaker 8: I've been infatuated, proved that.
22:52
Speaker 9: And I lived with a lady for many years, but
22:57
Speaker 9: that was back in the eighties.
23:02
Speaker 1: What can you say about her, Joanne?
23:05
Speaker 8: Hmm uh, she died in a long camp. Sure, and
23:12
Speaker 8: I lived with her for like nine years.
23:17
Speaker 1: Oh boy, did she pass away while you were living together?
23:22
Speaker 8: Yeah?
23:23
Speaker 1: That must have been hard.
23:27
Speaker 8: Yeah was, But I moved on.
23:37
Speaker 1: Stephen tells us that he was in the Navy for
23:40
Speaker 1: four years, that he missed Vietnam by just a month.
23:43
Speaker 1: Most of his professional life was spent working in factories.
23:47
Speaker 1: I asked him about his brothers why they no longer speak,
23:50
Speaker 1: but he says nothing in particular happened. They just drifted. Overall,
23:55
Speaker 1: he says his life has been nominal and fortunate. When
23:59
Speaker 1: I ask how so, he cites the fact that he's
24:01
Speaker 1: never been homeless, although there was a brief period in
24:05
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen when he ended up in a veteran shelter.
24:08
Speaker 1: It was fine, says, except for the fact that he
24:10
Speaker 1: couldn't control the heat or the air conditioning, and shortly
24:14
Speaker 1: after that he moved into a room in his friend
24:16
Speaker 1: Carl's house, which is where he is now.
24:25
Speaker 4: I took a video of her telling the story. I
24:29
Speaker 4: don't know if you're interested in hearing it.
24:32
Speaker 1: DeBie wants Stephen to hear what he meant to Anita
24:34
Speaker 1: in Anita's own words. In response, Stephen says that he
24:38
Speaker 1: doesn't have access to a car right now, plus he's
24:41
Speaker 1: sick in bed. I assume he thinks we're asking him
24:44
Speaker 1: to go somewhere, So I try again to explain, we
24:48
Speaker 1: could try to play a little bit of the video
24:52
Speaker 1: over the phone so that you can hear Anita's voice.
24:58
Speaker 9: Not right now.
25:01
Speaker 1: I'm good, it's no misunderstanding. Stephen doesn't want to hear
25:07
Speaker 1: Anita Bill. Debbie tries to explain her mom's feelings for
25:11
Speaker 1: the baby she held during that flight to America.
25:15
Speaker 4: I think in some ways she felt like sympathical with you,
25:18
Speaker 4: you know, like sympathetic with you that you were both
25:21
Speaker 4: leaving your homeland.
25:23
Speaker 8: Hm hmm.
25:26
Speaker 1: I mean, is it strange to think that as a
25:28
Speaker 1: baby you were able to have such a strong effect
25:30
Speaker 1: on somebody.
25:32
Speaker 9: Well, I don't think of it.
25:36
Speaker 1: As that, but well, how do you think of it?
25:41
Speaker 8: That could be anything like I love this little toddler,
25:49
Speaker 8: you know, I love Peta. It could be.
25:57
Speaker 9: Anything.
26:00
Speaker 1: The conversation feels like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.
26:06
Speaker 1: If it's a battle between optimism and pessimism, it feels
26:09
Speaker 1: like pessimism is winning.
26:17
Speaker 8: It was surprising to get the letter, and I thought worries.
26:24
Speaker 4: People doing Yeah, I just felt like it was a gift.
26:31
Speaker 8: Okay, thank you.
26:33
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm a little old now to be concerned.
26:44
Speaker 1: Did you feel like it's too late?
26:47
Speaker 8: Yeah?
26:50
Speaker 2: I do.
26:58
Speaker 3: That.
26:58
Speaker 1: Baby Stephano doesn't exist anymore. When he was taken out
27:02
Speaker 1: of Anita's arms, he became Stephen, and Stephen is a
27:06
Speaker 1: sixty eight year old man dealing with ill health. Feeling
27:09
Speaker 1: of a stranger who encountered him for one day as
27:12
Speaker 1: a toddler seemed largely irrelevant. Debbie wanted to give Stefano
27:16
Speaker 1: a gift, but Stephen doesn't want that gift.
27:21
Speaker 9: I'm going to have to discharge now, so I'm going
27:25
Speaker 9: to leave you folks.
27:27
Speaker 1: Me Before he goes, though, Stephen asks if we could
27:31
Speaker 1: mail him a copy of the photograph of Anita and
27:34
Speaker 1: him on the plane.
27:35
Speaker 8: Mail that to me.
27:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, please, okay, thank you, Okay.
27:40
Speaker 6: Thank you.
27:41
Speaker 4: It was so nice talking to you. I really appreciate
27:43
Speaker 4: you taking the time. I wish you the best. I
27:46
Speaker 4: wish you well.
27:47
Speaker 8: Yay, thank you.
27:52
Speaker 1: After we hang up, Debbie and I sit in silence
27:54
Speaker 1: for a moment. Yeah, hmm.
28:00
Speaker 3: Yeah.
28:02
Speaker 1: It's hard to know what to make of any of it.
28:05
Speaker 1: On the one hand, Stephen's reaction is reasonable. It is
28:08
Speaker 1: strange to be called up by the daughter of a
28:10
Speaker 1: woman you spent one day with when you were a
28:13
Speaker 1: two year old. In some ways, the story of Anita
28:16
Speaker 1: and Stephano was an easier one to tell when it
28:19
Speaker 1: was incomplete. A woman immigrates with a baby and thinks
28:22
Speaker 1: about him for the rest of her life, and then
28:26
Speaker 1: what the baby becomes a man and doesn't care. The
28:30
Speaker 1: man who was once the baby faces hardship. Nice anecdotes
28:34
Speaker 1: become harder to sum up when you involve the lives
28:37
Speaker 1: of real people.
28:38
Speaker 10: He took it differently than I thought, definitely took it
28:42
Speaker 10: differently than I thought it Just I think the part
28:46
Speaker 10: that makes me cry a little bit is that he
28:48
Speaker 10: didn't want to hear my mom. Yeah, but you can't
28:52
Speaker 10: make people, you know, see things the way you see them.
28:56
Speaker 1: You can never assume a gift, you know. Debbie is disappointed, though,
29:02
Speaker 1: not just because of what she wanted and didn't get,
29:04
Speaker 1: but because of what she did get. Well, our picture
29:07
Speaker 1: of Stephen's life is fragmented. Did the details he shared
29:11
Speaker 1: contained a lot of sorrow.
29:12
Speaker 4: And I don't know how my mom. I think maybe
29:18
Speaker 4: how would it have been for her if she would
29:21
Speaker 4: have actually met him or talked to him?
29:23
Speaker 3: You know, maybe it's better that I did.
29:26
Speaker 1: How do you how do you think she would have
29:29
Speaker 1: dealt with it? Like, what do you think she would
29:30
Speaker 1: have said to him?
29:31
Speaker 4: Oh, she would have told him she loved him. She
29:33
Speaker 4: probably would have invited him over. Really, she would have
29:36
Speaker 4: figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply. Yeah,
29:41
Speaker 4: she really loved people deeply. The love that was more
29:46
Speaker 4: than pizza. He can't. I don't think he could even
29:48
Speaker 4: comprehend it. I think most people couldn't comprehend that.
29:55
Speaker 1: In that video of Anita, the one that Stephen didn't
29:58
Speaker 1: want to hear, there's a moment where Anita wonders if
30:00
Speaker 1: she's being understood.
30:02
Speaker 6: That's a nice story, and I don't know if you
30:05
Speaker 6: understand it. I think so.
30:08
Speaker 1: When I fir saw it, I assumed she was referring
30:11
Speaker 1: to her accent or less than perfect English. But now
30:15
Speaker 1: I wonder if there was something more behind it. We
30:18
Speaker 1: live our lives in the desperate hope that if we
30:20
Speaker 1: find the right words, tell the story the right way,
30:23
Speaker 1: our love will be understood. We will be understood. We hope,
30:28
Speaker 1: even as we misconstrue and grow offended and talk past
30:31
Speaker 1: each other, we hope love, some iota of it will
30:35
Speaker 1: get through, even though time and time again were disappointed.
30:44
Speaker 1: The next time I speak with Debbie, she tells me
30:46
Speaker 1: how the night after her call with Stephen, she woke
30:49
Speaker 1: up at three am from a bad dream. She got
30:52
Speaker 1: out of bed and went downstairs, who was pouring outside,
30:56
Speaker 1: And Debbie thought about Stephano, the boy her mother held
30:59
Speaker 1: on the airplane back in nineteen fifty nine, And she
31:02
Speaker 1: thought about the man she spoke to on the phone
31:04
Speaker 1: sixty five years later, and she thought about her mom,
31:08
Speaker 1: and she grieved, crying for about an hour. Maybe this
31:12
Speaker 1: will plant a seed for Stephen, Debbie tells me, After all,
31:16
Speaker 1: he did seem to really want that photograph. Maybe someday
31:20
Speaker 1: he'll look back at the things she was trying to
31:22
Speaker 1: tell him and he'll finally feel that love from her mother.
31:26
Speaker 1: It seems like an unlikely hope, but in this way,
31:30
Speaker 1: Debbie is like her mom.
32:18
Speaker 11: Now that the Fernitures returning to its goodwill home, now
32:28
Speaker 11: that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage
32:33
Speaker 11: to pose, take this moment to deserve.
32:39
Speaker 1: If we meant it, if we turn we remember, felt
32:44
Speaker 1: around for funds from things that accidentally. This episode of
32:55
Speaker 1: Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and me Jonathan Goldstein,
32:59
Speaker 1: along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane.
33:03
Speaker 1: Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Ben Natta, Haaffrey,
33:08
Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and Trina Menino. Emma Monger mixed the episode
33:12
Speaker 1: with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson, and
33:16
Speaker 1: Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon Would
33:20
Speaker 1: Be Soul and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by
33:23
Speaker 1: the Weaker Than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on
33:26
Speaker 1: Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast, or email us at Heavyweight at
33:29
Speaker 1: pushkin dot Fm. Tune in next week for a special
33:33
Speaker 1: Pushkin Anthology show about mistakes with the hosts of Risky Business,
33:38
Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales and Heavyweight. Hey that's Me