Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Heart, Soul and Guts with Adena Bank Lees, LCSW

Transcript

Heart, Soul and Guts with Adena Bank Lees, LCSW · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
0:04
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
0:07
Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
0:11
Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this
0:14
Speaker 1: show five four, three, two and one. Our folks, welcome
0:19
Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have back. Favorite
0:23
Speaker 1: guest of the show, Abina bank Lee's Adina Welcome.
0:26
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thanks guys, I'm excited to be
0:28
Speaker 2: talking with you today.
0:30
Speaker 1: Awesome Adena is a licensed clinical social worker, licensed addiction counselor,
0:35
Speaker 1: Board Certified Expert and Traumatic stress and certified practitioner of
0:39
Speaker 1: psychodrama with more than thirty five years of experience. A
0:42
Speaker 1: recognize authority on childhood trauma, Adena specializes in covert emotional incests,
0:47
Speaker 1: a form of hidden abuse. She also knows personally as
0:50
Speaker 1: a thriver with a lift history of childhood sexual abuse
0:53
Speaker 1: and covert emotional incest. Adena is the author of Covert
0:57
Speaker 1: Emotional Incests, The Hidden Sexual Abuse Story of Hope and Healing,
1:02
Speaker 1: recently updated and revised, which includes over one hundred pages
1:05
Speaker 1: of new content for clinicians featuring case vignettes, I to
1:09
Speaker 1: the goal, treatment examples and consultation guidelines. When she's not
1:13
Speaker 1: in the therapy room or training room, you'll find her
1:15
Speaker 1: laughing with loved ones, singing at the top of her lungs.
1:17
Speaker 1: In the car, we're stiking up time and there. All right,
1:20
Speaker 1: let's go, let's hear some of the singing. I was
1:22
Speaker 1: like waiting, I want to hear some singing.
1:26
Speaker 2: On the car.
1:27
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll have you close us out with a little tune.
1:31
Speaker 1: We can fade out. So Adina, I love having you
1:36
Speaker 1: on this podcast, and I think our listeners who maybe
1:42
Speaker 1: aren't familiar with you will certainly understand why I love
1:45
Speaker 1: having you on this podcast as we get into this.
1:47
Speaker 2: Okay, but.
1:50
Speaker 1: All right, let's start out here for those maybe you
1:52
Speaker 1: aren't familiar, Where are you from originally and where are
1:56
Speaker 1: you currently?
1:57
Speaker 2: So I'm originally from Long Island, New York. And everybody
2:00
Speaker 2: knows that as soon as they hear me speak, even
2:02
Speaker 2: though I've been in tucsona, Arizona for thirty six years,
2:07
Speaker 2: They'll get are you from You're from New York, You're
2:10
Speaker 2: from Long Island?
2:10
Speaker 1: Yeah?
2:11
Speaker 2: So uh so you can you can? You can take
2:13
Speaker 2: the girl out of Long Island. But you can't take
2:15
Speaker 2: the Long Island out of the girl. So that's really
2:17
Speaker 2: And I just got back from a trip to New
2:18
Speaker 2: York City, so my accent is definitely heavier when I
2:22
Speaker 2: go back there, I just kind of fall into it again.
2:24
Speaker 2: So yeah, we had a great, amazing I took two
2:27
Speaker 2: colleagues of mine that have never been and to see
2:30
Speaker 2: New York City through the eyes of newcomers and people
2:34
Speaker 2: have never really even seen a big city before. Incredible,
2:38
Speaker 2: just incredible. So that's you know, all right. So I'm
2:43
Speaker 2: in Tucson, Arizona for thirty six years, originally from Long Island,
2:46
Speaker 2: New York.
2:47
Speaker 1: Okay, So today we're going to be talking about your book,
2:52
Speaker 1: which is updated again Covert Covert Emotional Incests and Sexual Abuse.
2:56
Speaker 1: Story of Hope and Healing. Covert Emotional abuse. What is it?
3:06
Speaker 2: Okay? So it's really important to know that it is
3:11
Speaker 2: something that covert means, that it is subtle, that it
3:16
Speaker 2: is not physical contact, so there's no physical genital contact.
3:21
Speaker 2: Some people call it non contact sexual abuse. Maybe that's
3:25
Speaker 2: clearer for people. Non contact Okay, sexual abuse. Yes, So
3:31
Speaker 2: covert emotional incest is when a child is made a
3:36
Speaker 2: substitute or surrogate spouse for one or both of their caregivers.
3:43
Speaker 2: And notice I don't say parents because they're adult caregivers, Okay,
3:46
Speaker 2: whoever that is, and or a confidant for one or
3:52
Speaker 2: both of their caregivers. So they are hearing and experiencing
3:57
Speaker 2: material that is overwhelming for a child, that is not
4:01
Speaker 2: appropriate for a child. For example, a mother figure can
4:06
Speaker 2: be confiding in a daughter or son about the marital problems.
4:10
Speaker 2: And this happens because of something called triangulation, which is
4:14
Speaker 2: a family therapy term, and that means that the caregivers
4:17
Speaker 2: who are supposed to be in a unified executive committee,
4:21
Speaker 2: whether it's two or four whatever, but everybody's supposed to
4:24
Speaker 2: be on the same page, agree how to parent, agree
4:27
Speaker 2: what the boundaries are, etc. And when triangulation happens, what
4:32
Speaker 2: it means is that the caregivers lack the skills that
4:35
Speaker 2: they need to deal directly with each other in the
4:38
Speaker 2: relationship and or go outside and get professional help or
4:42
Speaker 2: peer support. So they use and lean on one or
4:46
Speaker 2: more of their children to get those needs met. And
4:52
Speaker 2: the intergenerational boundary another family therapy term which is supposed
4:56
Speaker 2: to be in place between the adult caregivers the children.
5:01
Speaker 2: The intergenerational boundary says things like, the adults make the
5:05
Speaker 2: important decisions where we live, how we pay bills, etc.
5:09
Speaker 2: Kids do not do that. Kids may have a voice
5:12
Speaker 2: because we have family meetings. In a healthy family, we
5:14
Speaker 2: have family meetings. Kids have a voice, but they don't
5:17
Speaker 2: make those decisions. The parents make those decisions, bedtime, you
5:21
Speaker 2: go to school, you don't go to school, et cetera.
5:24
Speaker 2: But where there's a system of triangulation, oftentimes the child
5:30
Speaker 2: will jump up the intergenerational boundary and be in a
5:34
Speaker 2: peer role to want to one or both of those
5:37
Speaker 2: caregivers or more than those caregivers, and the child has
5:41
Speaker 2: a lot more power than they should. It feels really good.
5:44
Speaker 2: I'm special, I'm powerful. Look at how they listen to
5:47
Speaker 2: me and I make the decisions, and I take care
5:49
Speaker 2: of the other kids, and I do this. And you know, somebody, yesterday,
5:53
Speaker 2: guy I was working with, called himself the emotional container
5:57
Speaker 2: for his mother, and I thought that was brilliant. The
6:01
Speaker 2: emotional container.
6:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear the emotional abuse part, But where's the
6:06
Speaker 1: sexual abuse part?
6:07
Speaker 2: Okay, so great question. The sexual abuse part comes where
6:11
Speaker 2: the spousal role is a sexual role, whether there's physical
6:17
Speaker 2: sex happening or not, So there's sexual energy in that role,
6:22
Speaker 2: and romantic needs are usually communicated not directly but indirectly,
6:29
Speaker 2: or they're inferred by what's being said, how it's being said,
6:35
Speaker 2: tone of voice. I've had many clients whose mom and
6:39
Speaker 2: or dad would be in bed with them instead of
6:42
Speaker 2: their spouse, sharing this kind of information, giving back rubs, etc.
6:47
Speaker 2: Asking for those and so there's a lot of very
6:50
Speaker 2: confusing messages and sexual energy that's getting transferred between the
6:55
Speaker 2: adult and the child. And it's overwhelming. And I will
6:59
Speaker 2: share from my my own story. I grew up until
7:03
Speaker 2: I had the words for this. I just knew it
7:05
Speaker 2: felt yucky. That's all I could say. I just feel
7:07
Speaker 2: yucky inside. I don't know what it is. And when
7:10
Speaker 2: I was about fourteen, I thought, holy mackerel, I feel
7:15
Speaker 2: like I'm having an affair with my dad. I didn't
7:20
Speaker 2: tell anybody, never said anything until I was twenty six,
7:24
Speaker 2: which is in the book, when I got the name
7:26
Speaker 2: covert incest. It's like, that's how I felt. I love
7:29
Speaker 2: my dad to pieces and there was a cringe, there
7:33
Speaker 2: was an ick factor. We would be sitting at a
7:37
Speaker 2: restaurant and people would come up to us as we
7:40
Speaker 2: went out a lot to the diner or whatever on
7:42
Speaker 2: Long Island, and we would chat talk and people would say, oh,
7:45
Speaker 2: is this your wife? And we would laugh. We thought
7:49
Speaker 2: that was so funny. Like I was seventeen or eighteen
7:51
Speaker 2: at that time, I always looked older than my age
7:55
Speaker 2: and we laughed and thought it was funny. But it's
7:57
Speaker 2: not funny. People pick up on that energy that's unspoken.
8:03
Speaker 1: In the book, you talk about the difficulty survivors have
8:10
Speaker 1: of trying to figure out what happened because nothing like
8:14
Speaker 1: quote unquote overt or obvious happened. Talk more about that.
8:20
Speaker 2: So I'm working with many people right now. Right now,
8:24
Speaker 2: I am the psychodrama department at a residential treatment program
8:29
Speaker 2: here in Tucson where people come to stay for thirty
8:32
Speaker 2: to sixty ninety days because they are not able to
8:36
Speaker 2: function in their life at this time, so they need
8:38
Speaker 2: impatient treatment. And because I'm a certified psychodramatist, that's what
8:43
Speaker 2: I'm offering to people. And probably about eight or nine
8:48
Speaker 2: people right now are dealing with exactly what you're asking me,
8:52
Speaker 2: and they said, I feel crazy. My nervous system is
8:56
Speaker 2: so dysregulated. I can't think, I can't function. I'm shaking
9:02
Speaker 2: like crazy. I went to all kinds of doctors. It
9:04
Speaker 2: feels like I have seizures and everything is normal. And
9:09
Speaker 2: what we know we know today is that this is
9:15
Speaker 2: all nervous system overwhelmed. So she's totally outside of her
9:20
Speaker 2: window of tolerance. I hope people know that term from
9:22
Speaker 2: Dan Siegel and the nervous system is shaking. The nervous
9:27
Speaker 2: system's overwhelmed. So for an example, when she was sharing
9:31
Speaker 2: a little bit in group the other day, I said,
9:34
Speaker 2: I see your leg going. What does your leg need
9:36
Speaker 2: to do or need to say? She said, run makes
9:40
Speaker 2: total sense because given what you just shared of what
9:42
Speaker 2: happened to you at eight, that she was responsible for
9:45
Speaker 2: seven siblings, she told mom to go out because she
9:49
Speaker 2: knew Mom was stressed and she would take care of
9:50
Speaker 2: everything because she was Mom's emotional containable. So she could
9:55
Speaker 2: never run from that situation. So her flight response got
10:00
Speaker 2: locked in her body. And there's so much movement that
10:03
Speaker 2: has not been able to be completed. So we're talking
10:06
Speaker 2: about some of Peter Levine's work right now. Okay, we're
10:08
Speaker 2: sensory motor psychotherapy work. I know you've interviewed all these people.
10:12
Speaker 2: So I said to her, I want you to pick
10:15
Speaker 2: somebody to play your eight year old. That's a psychodrama.
10:18
Speaker 2: Pick a role. Somebody played her eight year old child.
10:20
Speaker 2: She took her by the hand and she ran. We
10:23
Speaker 2: went outside and she ran and she ran until her
10:26
Speaker 2: body fell calmer, she said, oh, this is unbelievable. So
10:34
Speaker 2: when people don't know, their body is telling him, and
10:37
Speaker 2: this is from besil Vanderkolk. Your body's going to tell
10:39
Speaker 2: you what's going on. So they're confused. I thought we
10:47
Speaker 2: were just close. People said, you know, I was just close.
10:49
Speaker 2: My mother was my person. I heard that yesterday and
10:52
Speaker 2: I was her person. And now that she's dead, I'm
10:55
Speaker 2: totally alone and I don't have anybody.
11:00
Speaker 1: My guess is, when you're younger, you only know your environment.
11:07
Speaker 2: Correct.
11:08
Speaker 1: You don't know what's going on in other kids homes.
11:10
Speaker 1: You expect, oh, this is normal. Of course, it's got
11:12
Speaker 1: to be normal.
11:13
Speaker 2: Correct, Until you start going to other homes and then
11:16
Speaker 2: you start seeing things. But no, of course, you think
11:18
Speaker 2: this is just the way everybody is, and you think
11:20
Speaker 2: that this is the way everybody feels, this is why
11:23
Speaker 2: everybody sees through their eyes. That's why kids don't know
11:25
Speaker 2: they need glasses. They just think that's the way it is.
11:28
Speaker 2: They don't know.
11:28
Speaker 1: So what does this do then? As obviously it's different
11:33
Speaker 1: for everybody, But as kids get older, how are they
11:38
Speaker 1: functioning as a result of this? What might this look like?
11:42
Speaker 2: Oftentimes it looks like perfectionism. It looks like overachieving. It
11:47
Speaker 2: looks like the kid you don't have to worry about
11:49
Speaker 2: because they can take care of everything because they do,
11:53
Speaker 2: and they are they wanting to please people. Pleasing is
11:58
Speaker 2: like the number one fine and symptom. Excuse me. So
12:05
Speaker 2: fawning is what the term now is. People pleasing, mediating, caretaking,
12:11
Speaker 2: doing for others what they can what they can do
12:13
Speaker 2: for themselves, anticipating people's needs, being able to read facial expressions.
12:17
Speaker 2: And we know this about trauma survivors. We know that
12:20
Speaker 2: we are oriented to facial expression and we have to
12:26
Speaker 2: be for our safety. The infant does that, and so
12:30
Speaker 2: these people are hypervigilant about that and know how to
12:33
Speaker 2: be a chameleon to meet your needs and be what
12:36
Speaker 2: you want. And they're not the people who usually come
12:39
Speaker 2: in for help. They're usually the heroes of the family,
12:43
Speaker 2: so they come in. Like one person said to me,
12:47
Speaker 2: it worked until I totally collapsed, and then people knew
12:52
Speaker 2: I needed help.
12:55
Speaker 1: There's the intergenerational piece, which is pronounced in the book.
12:59
Speaker 1: How does that? How does this get passed down? And
13:02
Speaker 1: is this something that typically normally usually does get passed down?
13:09
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it does. And what we know is that
13:14
Speaker 2: the way people are raised, they'll they'll take some of that,
13:17
Speaker 2: or they'll say, I never I don't want to raise
13:18
Speaker 2: my kid like that at all, and I'm going to
13:21
Speaker 2: do the total opposite. And so in the addiction field,
13:24
Speaker 2: what we say is the opposite of sick is sick.
13:27
Speaker 2: So we need to find something in the middle. How
13:31
Speaker 2: many adult children have I worked with this that I'm
13:33
Speaker 2: never going to be an alcoholic, you know, I'm never
13:35
Speaker 2: going to do this with my kids, And so they
13:37
Speaker 2: went totally to the opposite. I'm not going to share
13:40
Speaker 2: anything with my kids because I don't want to perpetrate
13:44
Speaker 2: this on them. And that's what I experienced. And I
13:47
Speaker 2: heard that yesterday guy from somebody. I'm afraid to have
13:50
Speaker 2: children because I don't want to perpetrate this on my kids.
13:55
Speaker 2: And what I ended up doing was I tried to
13:58
Speaker 2: be the perfect mom. My anxiety was so high, and
14:03
Speaker 2: I think my kid picked up on some of that.
14:06
Speaker 2: So it was how can I be a good enough mom?
14:10
Speaker 2: What does that mean? What does that look like? And
14:12
Speaker 2: then I was challenged when Ian was my son. Ian
14:16
Speaker 2: was in his twenties. He's now thirty something, and I
14:22
Speaker 2: wanted to have more of a reciprocal relationship with him.
14:26
Speaker 2: I wanted to transfer it. He's more of an adult now,
14:28
Speaker 2: and I wanted him to know his mom as a
14:31
Speaker 2: human without him being an emotional container for me. I
14:36
Speaker 2: didn't know how to do that because it wasn't modeled
14:39
Speaker 2: for me. So in my own therapy, I talked with
14:43
Speaker 2: my therapist and some of that's in the book about
14:45
Speaker 2: you know, how can I talk to Ian about this?
14:48
Speaker 2: And it was just to say to him, Ian, I
14:51
Speaker 2: want you to know me more as a person. I
14:53
Speaker 2: want more of a reciprocity here. What do you think
14:56
Speaker 2: of that? Are you open to that? He said, of course, Mom,
14:58
Speaker 2: I didn't know you were interested in that. You know,
15:02
Speaker 2: he's so because he was raised by myself and my
15:05
Speaker 2: wife and two therapists who process everything, and so you know,
15:09
Speaker 2: he's pretty emotionally intelligent. But that's how that so, Yes,
15:14
Speaker 2: it gets passed down because I don't have the tools
15:16
Speaker 2: to do it different. And it stops when I ask
15:19
Speaker 2: for help. And that's the biggest thing, guy that I say,
15:22
Speaker 2: if anybody gets anything, it's okay to ask for help.
15:25
Speaker 2: It's a strength, not a weakness. You're not alone. Ask
15:30
Speaker 2: for the help, get the suggestions, try things out good enough.
15:35
Speaker 2: Dare to be adequate is what psychodrama has taught me.
15:39
Speaker 2: That is our motto. Dare to be adequate. I said
15:42
Speaker 2: that to somebody recently. They go, what does that mean?
15:45
Speaker 2: I said, I know. I didn't know what it meant either.
15:49
Speaker 2: You know, I'm the person who got in ninety three
15:51
Speaker 2: and had to take the test again because I had
15:53
Speaker 2: to get a higher grade. That's how this shows up.
15:56
Speaker 2: That's how this has passed down.
15:59
Speaker 1: My guess, people listening to this might be doing kind
16:06
Speaker 1: of their own inventory, you.
16:08
Speaker 2: Know, I hope.
16:10
Speaker 1: So what are your what do you what do you
16:13
Speaker 1: ask yourself? What does one ask themselves? Did this happen
16:16
Speaker 1: to me? I don't know.
16:19
Speaker 2: Well, there is now and we can put this on
16:21
Speaker 2: a link if you want, because I was given permission
16:23
Speaker 2: to do this. There is now the covert emotional I
16:28
Speaker 2: think it's it's the c I S, the ci S
16:33
Speaker 2: Commotion Covert Emotional Incests Survey. I think it's called our
16:39
Speaker 2: Scale scale and it was developed by somebody in Turkey
16:42
Speaker 2: and it's peer reviewed and I have a copy of it,
16:45
Speaker 2: so I'll give it to you and people can download that.
16:48
Speaker 2: And that's you know, questions to ask. They're really good
16:50
Speaker 2: questions to ask yourself, and they're also for therapists who
16:54
Speaker 2: are interviewing clients. Use it to be able to jog
16:59
Speaker 2: your your own curiosity and start to ask questions. I
17:03
Speaker 2: don't recommend you just handing something to a client, and
17:07
Speaker 2: the reason for that is it's so critically important to
17:10
Speaker 2: develop rapport as you are asking questions. So many clients
17:15
Speaker 2: came to me after going to therapists who handed them
17:19
Speaker 2: an a page intake form and they said, Diana, I
17:21
Speaker 2: couldn't fill it out. I couldn't share my story with
17:24
Speaker 2: somebody I didn't know in that paper. I was so
17:27
Speaker 2: overwhelmed sitting in the office. They wanted my trauma history.
17:30
Speaker 2: I can't do that. So you know, if you're working
17:34
Speaker 2: with insurance, you're getting three to four sessions now before
17:39
Speaker 2: you have to have a treatment plan, and that's really appropriate.
17:42
Speaker 2: You shouldn't have to have a treatment plan in the
17:44
Speaker 2: first session. You want to be talking with someone and
17:46
Speaker 2: developing that and asking them those questions in a more
17:49
Speaker 2: conversational style, like we're doing to be able to develop
17:52
Speaker 2: the safety so that they can say things to you
17:54
Speaker 2: that are really difficult. So we can definitely offer that.
17:58
Speaker 2: And I would ask myself, did I feel responsible for
18:03
Speaker 2: either of my care any of my caregivers feelings? Was
18:08
Speaker 2: I the one to take care of them? Did I
18:11
Speaker 2: feel that cringe factor? Was I hugged a little too
18:14
Speaker 2: tight or too long and it felt icky and I
18:18
Speaker 2: couldn't say anything or when I did? And I have
18:21
Speaker 2: permission to say this from my dad who's passed, and
18:26
Speaker 2: it's in the book. When I was fifteen, I have
18:31
Speaker 2: friends over and in my house we had a small home.
18:34
Speaker 2: Walking from his bedroom to the kitchen yet to pass
18:36
Speaker 2: the living room, and I had friends in the living room.
18:39
Speaker 2: And you know, as a teenager, you think your parents
18:41
Speaker 2: are nothing anyway, and you're so embarrassed by anything they do.
18:45
Speaker 2: So my father walks through in his underwear, because that's
18:48
Speaker 2: how he walked around the house. Always, and I was
18:53
Speaker 2: terribly embarrassed and I said, so after, I said, Dad,
18:55
Speaker 2: if I have friends over, can you please put shorts on?
18:58
Speaker 2: And he said to me, that's your fucking problem. What
19:05
Speaker 2: am I supposed to do with that?
19:07
Speaker 1: Right?
19:08
Speaker 2: So you know, our home is open and free sexually
19:12
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff, because that's what my
19:14
Speaker 2: parents thought was healthy. What he wasn't able to do
19:18
Speaker 2: was here that I was uncomfortable and I needed some
19:20
Speaker 2: boundaries around that. Later on, when I was in treatment
19:24
Speaker 2: and shared that with him, he got it and he
19:26
Speaker 2: always puts shorts on from then on, when I was
19:28
Speaker 2: twenty nine. After that, he always I said, I won't
19:31
Speaker 2: come over unless you have your shorts on. So, yeah,
19:35
Speaker 2: I don't even remember where we were now since I
19:37
Speaker 2: told that story. Sorry, I went somewhere.
19:40
Speaker 1: No, it's perfectly fun. Are we talking about the childhood
19:44
Speaker 1: emotional incest scale?
19:46
Speaker 2: Yes?
19:47
Speaker 1: Ayah, okay, okay, I have that here, thank you. The
19:52
Speaker 1: difference between an enmeshment and healthy boundaries seems to me
19:57
Speaker 1: like could often get blurred with people. How does one
20:01
Speaker 1: differentiate okay, sock factor?
20:06
Speaker 2: I think the ick factor is definitely there, cringe factors there.
20:09
Speaker 2: It's also hm hmm. So a couple of a couple
20:16
Speaker 2: of examples I'm thinking of. One is in meshment. Is
20:19
Speaker 2: if there's an adult couple and let's say the wife says,
20:26
Speaker 2: oh my god, my husband's mother. She's in the middle
20:29
Speaker 2: of our relationship, I feel like there's three people here.
20:32
Speaker 2: I've heard that many times, and I've heard the vice verse.
20:35
Speaker 2: I've heard the husband say that about you know, the
20:37
Speaker 2: wife is so committed to her and so close to
20:39
Speaker 2: her her mother or her father. That's in meshment. That's
20:43
Speaker 2: an that's ongoing CEI and enmeshment, and they're both, i mean,
20:50
Speaker 2: pretty much the same. So healthy boundaries means closeness, good neighbors, right,
20:57
Speaker 2: good fences make good neighbors. Boundaries mean I have a
21:01
Speaker 2: sense of self, and I respect your sense of self.
21:06
Speaker 2: I am not an extension of you, And that's enmeshment
21:10
Speaker 2: is I can't tell the difference between me and you.
21:13
Speaker 2: So in the last many years, it has been cool
21:18
Speaker 2: to say for moms of their teenage daughters, I'm our
21:20
Speaker 2: best friend, and we dress alike and we go to
21:23
Speaker 2: parties and you know all that stuff. And I'm thinking, no, no, now,
21:30
Speaker 2: best friend in terms of my daughter trusts me, and
21:33
Speaker 2: I can say my son trusts me with stuff that
21:35
Speaker 2: he doesn't trust other people with. And I have a
21:38
Speaker 2: very special relationship with him in that way. He can
21:40
Speaker 2: tell me anything and that's really cool and I love that.
21:44
Speaker 2: And there are things he won't tell me. He's not
21:48
Speaker 2: going to tell me about a sexual relationship. He needs
21:51
Speaker 2: to go elsewhere with that. He's not going to tell
21:53
Speaker 2: his mom about that. A daughter might tell their mom
21:56
Speaker 2: about that. That's okay. That doesn't mean there's no boundaries.
21:59
Speaker 2: If I'm asking and I'm saying asking for or telling
22:03
Speaker 2: an adult woman, here, I am a young woman and
22:06
Speaker 2: I'm saying to an adult woman, this is what's happening.
22:08
Speaker 2: What was what's your experience? Mom? Can you help teach
22:11
Speaker 2: me that's not in meshment, that's appropriate. I always felt
22:16
Speaker 2: better going to a professional because of the in meshment
22:21
Speaker 2: with my mom. My mom wanted to know every detail
22:25
Speaker 2: from when I was first dating. That's the ick factor,
22:28
Speaker 2: that's the mom. This is mine Like, no, I'm not
22:31
Speaker 2: going to tell you how he kisses, and I'm not
22:33
Speaker 2: going to tell you if he's good. And one of
22:37
Speaker 2: the things that was really again in meshment. So when
22:41
Speaker 2: I fell in love with my wife, that was really
22:46
Speaker 2: hard for my family. And I'm not saying that any
22:49
Speaker 2: kind of sexual orientation stuff gets is caused by CEI. No,
22:55
Speaker 2: this is just my story. This is just who I am.
22:58
Speaker 2: So I was married to a man, divorced, fell in
23:00
Speaker 2: love with the woman, and my mom said to me,
23:04
Speaker 2: you know, it's so interesting. I can't stop thinking about
23:07
Speaker 2: you having sex with her. And I immediately said, Mom,
23:11
Speaker 2: that's so interesting that you would be obsessed with my
23:16
Speaker 2: sex life. That's enmeshment. My mother really had trouble separating
23:24
Speaker 2: me from her, and I had trouble separating me from
23:27
Speaker 2: her a lot of my life. And when she was
23:31
Speaker 2: dying she died two years ago, I had set a
23:36
Speaker 2: boundary with her that I was not able to share
23:40
Speaker 2: about my relationship with my wife. I was not able
23:42
Speaker 2: to share real intimate details about my life anymore because
23:47
Speaker 2: she couldn't hear me or see me. It was so
23:49
Speaker 2: she was so in it that it wasn't helpful and
23:53
Speaker 2: it was hurtful to me, and she just didn't understand that, unfortunately,
23:58
Speaker 2: and that's just you know, that was just a Unfortunately
24:01
Speaker 2: one of her deficits one of her blocks. Whatever, am
24:05
Speaker 2: I answering your question?
24:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is just so involved and intricate,
24:12
Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking about the the kind of psychological
24:17
Speaker 1: paradigm a young kid grows up with confusion of these
24:23
Speaker 1: shame and oh my gosh.
24:27
Speaker 2: Shame is at the core. Absolutely, I can never do
24:29
Speaker 2: it good enough because I can never fix my parents.
24:32
Speaker 2: I could never be good enough to fix them and
24:33
Speaker 2: make them happy. So there's there's two sides of the coin.
24:38
Speaker 2: So a dear friend of mine said Dina. The bigger
24:40
Speaker 2: the front, the bigger the back. So the front of
24:42
Speaker 2: CEI is I'm powerful. They listen to me. I'm the
24:46
Speaker 2: great listener. I have great you know, I'm older than
24:49
Speaker 2: my age. I have great feedback, I have good suggestions.
24:53
Speaker 2: I'm special. I'm the special one. That's all the good stuff.
24:58
Speaker 2: And that's a big hook, huge hook. The back is powerlessness, helplessness, unmanageability, confusion, shame.
25:08
Speaker 2: I'm never going to be good enough because shame fuels perfectionism.
25:11
Speaker 2: We know that I'm never going to be good enough.
25:13
Speaker 2: I can't do it right, and so people are always
25:17
Speaker 2: so hard on themselves. That's the perfectionist and I am.
25:23
Speaker 2: I'm totally powerless here. I'm helpless. I can't do anything,
25:27
Speaker 2: and it shows up in relationships of all forms guy people.
25:32
Speaker 2: There are some people who will not will be sexually
25:34
Speaker 2: interactic and not enter into romantic relationships because any kind
25:39
Speaker 2: of intimacy feels like engulfment, feels like smothering, feels like
25:43
Speaker 2: they're being taken over, swallowed up, because that's what's happened,
25:47
Speaker 2: So they just go. You know, the opposite of sick
25:51
Speaker 2: is sick or they're so people pleasing and that they're
25:55
Speaker 2: getting involved with people who take advantage of them and
25:57
Speaker 2: abuse them, and they're going to be doormats and they're
26:00
Speaker 2: going to do anything they can, sexually non sexually to
26:03
Speaker 2: please people. And all I'm worth. This is what I
26:06
Speaker 2: grew up with. And you know, I'm an object. My
26:08
Speaker 2: body's not mine. It's there for other people to use.
26:14
Speaker 2: Until I learned differently and now my body's not something
26:17
Speaker 2: for other people to use. But I allowed that for
26:20
Speaker 2: a long time because I that was my psychological frame.
26:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do clinicians need to look for so we're
26:33
Speaker 1: not that's a sticky question.
26:36
Speaker 2: What I'll be very direct. I'm going to answer your
26:41
Speaker 2: question before you even ask it. Okay, yeah, okay, And
26:44
Speaker 2: this is why I added the hundred pages. So it's
26:47
Speaker 2: critically important that you are in your own therapy. That's it.
26:52
Speaker 2: Number one, you are experiencing being in the client role.
26:56
Speaker 2: Number one, you have no business being in the therapist chair.
27:00
Speaker 2: If you've never experienced the client role. You cannot have
27:03
Speaker 2: any empathy for a client. You don't know what it's
27:05
Speaker 2: like to make the first call. You don't know what
27:07
Speaker 2: it's like to sit in the waiting room. You don't
27:09
Speaker 2: know what it's like to fill out an intake form
27:10
Speaker 2: and tell your deepest, darkest to somebody you don't know,
27:13
Speaker 2: and to try and develop a trust. There really scares
27:18
Speaker 2: me when people say, you know, I don't need therapy.
27:23
Speaker 2: If you're in this field, you need to be in
27:25
Speaker 2: the client role. It's important for that reason as well
27:29
Speaker 2: as for all if you're going to be working with trauma,
27:32
Speaker 2: the secondary PTSD we experience the compassion fatigue we experience,
27:37
Speaker 2: we have to have that support of what is it
27:41
Speaker 2: bringing up in us? So if we go to IFS,
27:44
Speaker 2: we go to Richard Schwartz, we go to what parts
27:46
Speaker 2: of us are getting triggered as that they're working with
27:49
Speaker 2: these clients. And if we're not in our own support, consultation, supervision,
27:55
Speaker 2: and therapy. If I'm not doing those and I'm working
27:58
Speaker 2: with traumatized people, I am so at risk for re
28:03
Speaker 2: enacting the dynamics that hurt them in the first place.
28:07
Speaker 2: So for somebody with CEI, they're gonna want to please you.
28:10
Speaker 2: They're gonna be the greatest client. They're gonna do everything.
28:13
Speaker 2: It's gonna be on time, They're going to all of that,
28:15
Speaker 2: and you're gonna think, oh, fantastic, you know, and you're
28:18
Speaker 2: gonna give them extra or you're gonna get like you're
28:20
Speaker 2: gonna have less boundaries with them, or they need you
28:24
Speaker 2: to be the healthy, boundaried parent. You're not gonna judge
28:30
Speaker 2: them if they don't do something. It's like I've given assignments.
28:33
Speaker 2: I want you to not do this. I want you
28:35
Speaker 2: to do this adequately. I don't want it perfect. I
28:38
Speaker 2: want you to come in wearing mismatched clothes tomorrow. I
28:41
Speaker 2: don't want to see you with makeup on. Like those
28:44
Speaker 2: are the kinds of interventions that have to be done
28:47
Speaker 2: to shake it up so that people know I'm okay
28:50
Speaker 2: for who I am I don't have to perform for you.
28:54
Speaker 2: There's no performing, and that's what people will see. You
28:58
Speaker 2: grow up with CEI their performers, and they're good. They
29:00
Speaker 2: get Academy awards. So your own therapy consultation. If you
29:07
Speaker 2: are not comfortable talking about sexual topics, use the word sex,
29:11
Speaker 2: the word incest. If you're not comfortable about talking about
29:14
Speaker 2: those things, this is not a population to be working with.
29:17
Speaker 2: You have to be like matter of fact, I can
29:21
Speaker 2: just talk about these things. You have to be able
29:23
Speaker 2: to say the hard stuff. So those are some of
29:27
Speaker 2: the warnings and things that I have in the book
29:29
Speaker 2: because I am too many people miss this. They don't
29:32
Speaker 2: ask the right questions. They're not but they're not even
29:35
Speaker 2: aware that it exists. So how could they ask the
29:39
Speaker 2: right questions. So my goal is let's get it out
29:42
Speaker 2: there that this thing exists. It's real, it's damaging, it's
29:47
Speaker 2: really messing people up, and they're coming into inpatient. And
29:49
Speaker 2: I'm also doing Survivors of Incest. Anonymous, which is a
29:54
Speaker 2: twelve step self help program, has a workshop on a
29:58
Speaker 2: phone meeting and they read my book. And I've been
30:01
Speaker 2: going and reading parts of my book and answering questions
30:04
Speaker 2: for people, and what I'm hearing from them is similar
30:07
Speaker 2: to what we're talking about that people the confusion about sex.
30:14
Speaker 2: What is sex? What is intimacy? What is closeness? How
30:18
Speaker 2: do I regulate my nervous system? They're consistently activated, anxious,
30:24
Speaker 2: or depressed. They are not inside that window of tolerance
30:28
Speaker 2: at all, because nobody was a regulated nervous system for them. Guy,
30:33
Speaker 2: when they were growing up, they had to do it
30:35
Speaker 2: for somebody else. And we know that as kids, as infants,
30:39
Speaker 2: we need the adults to be that regulated nervous system
30:42
Speaker 2: so that our nervous systems can learn how to do
30:44
Speaker 2: it for themselves. So that was a long winded answer.
30:49
Speaker 2: I'm very passionate about this.
30:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the book was recently updated Hunter pages, Yep.
31:00
Speaker 1: What was important for you to get in there to update.
31:04
Speaker 2: Just what we just talked about about ethical, effective and
31:08
Speaker 2: ethical strategies modalities. I wanted in there that experiential modalities
31:13
Speaker 2: are the modalities of choice for trauma in general, but
31:18
Speaker 2: for seeing ifs, ifs, psychodrama, sensory motor emdr like not
31:25
Speaker 2: sitting and just talking. Now people have to tell the story.
31:29
Speaker 2: That's why I'm saying three four sessions, like I need
31:31
Speaker 2: to develop the rapport. And one of the pieces that
31:35
Speaker 2: I've seen and that I'm trying to teach the therapists
31:38
Speaker 2: where I work now is what's called the double role
31:41
Speaker 2: in psychodrama. So instead of sitting across from someone and
31:45
Speaker 2: saying what I heard you say is when we do
31:48
Speaker 2: reflective listening. Instead of that, what I say to the
31:51
Speaker 2: client is may I sit next to you? Is that okay?
31:56
Speaker 1: Yeah?
31:56
Speaker 2: So of course I'm always asking for permission, right voice
31:59
Speaker 2: and choice. May I say something that I senses in
32:03
Speaker 2: your heart. I'd like to be in the role of
32:05
Speaker 2: your heart for a moment. May I say something from
32:08
Speaker 2: that role and you check in with your heart and
32:11
Speaker 2: your gut and you see if it's accurate, and if
32:13
Speaker 2: it is, or any of it is, you say it
32:15
Speaker 2: out loud so your body can hear it, and if
32:18
Speaker 2: it's not, we just throw it away.
32:20
Speaker 1: Fine.
32:21
Speaker 2: And what I hear is, how did you know that?
32:24
Speaker 2: How did you know I was feeling that? And I said,
32:27
Speaker 2: it's called empathy. And I've been doing this forty years,
32:30
Speaker 2: so I have a skill, right. But people think I
32:33
Speaker 2: do magic. That's what they say. You're the magician you're
32:35
Speaker 2: the wizard. No, it's empathy and it's me doing my
32:39
Speaker 2: own work. And so the double role is so powerful
32:45
Speaker 2: when someone when you're sitting next to someone and you're
32:48
Speaker 2: saying it as them, you're doing right brain to right
32:51
Speaker 2: brain communication that Janina Fisher talks about also, and they're
32:55
Speaker 2: getting mirrored in a way that they never have before.
32:59
Speaker 2: It is so cool, It is so amazing, And it's
33:03
Speaker 2: not You don't have to go to six hundred and
33:04
Speaker 2: eighty psychodrama training hours to learn how to do that.
33:07
Speaker 2: You already know that because you know how to reflectively listen,
33:09
Speaker 2: you're feeling what they're feeling. You just say it in
33:12
Speaker 2: a different way and it impacts them. It lands in
33:16
Speaker 2: a different way. Yeah, so that they can take they
33:19
Speaker 2: can they can hold it and they can take it
33:21
Speaker 2: with them.
33:22
Speaker 1: HM. Very interesting what you just said. I mean, so simple,
33:27
Speaker 1: seemingly simple. You didn't stay across from them, you moved
33:33
Speaker 1: beside them. You didn't say I'm going to say something.
33:37
Speaker 1: You said, I'm going to speak. Can and you ask permission?
33:42
Speaker 1: Can I say something that I think? Can I speak
33:45
Speaker 1: from your your heart? That's right, your heart, that's right.
33:49
Speaker 1: It wasn't just like no, I'm not sensing something in
33:52
Speaker 1: the ethers, can I say it? No? Yeah? Wow?
33:58
Speaker 2: And and I got that from psychodrama. And then what
34:01
Speaker 2: got reinforced for me is I've been I've been doing
34:04
Speaker 2: a lot of grief work in the last couple of
34:05
Speaker 2: years since my mom passed, and Francis Weller has been
34:09
Speaker 2: If anybody knows about him, it might be great to
34:11
Speaker 2: have him on your podcast. He has taught me so
34:14
Speaker 2: much about soul that this is grief is soul work.
34:20
Speaker 2: I'm ready personally. I was ready for I've done everything else.
34:24
Speaker 2: I was ready for the depth of the work that
34:26
Speaker 2: he talks about. And that's what people are resonating with
34:31
Speaker 2: the heart and soul and gut. That's those are the
34:34
Speaker 2: words I use now, not what's in your head, No,
34:39
Speaker 2: here and here. I cut to the chase, and I
34:42
Speaker 2: have to say that people are afraid to come into
34:45
Speaker 2: my group. And they tell me that because there are
34:48
Speaker 2: emotions in my group. And if people are not ready
34:51
Speaker 2: for that, they're not warmed up enough for my group.
34:55
Speaker 2: So to know that experiential methods are very powerful. I
34:58
Speaker 2: use them very carefully. I tailor them so it's not
35:03
Speaker 2: about I went to a weekend, and now I go
35:04
Speaker 2: do do this stuff. You know, I've been studying psychodrama
35:06
Speaker 2: since nineteen eighty nine, so I don't and I encourage
35:12
Speaker 2: people to find out about experiential methods because since Bessel
35:15
Speaker 2: Vannakok came out with all of his research, we know
35:18
Speaker 2: that trauma has to be released in the body. And
35:22
Speaker 2: there's also some new stuff out about flow and I'm
35:25
Speaker 2: looking at that. I don't totally understand that yet, but
35:29
Speaker 2: what I'm doing works. What I'm doing works, and so
35:33
Speaker 2: I'm just going to keep doing it. And I know
35:36
Speaker 2: my passion is to keep doing this and to have
35:39
Speaker 2: somebody say to me thank you without coming here. You know,
35:45
Speaker 2: I've been in therapy for ten years. I've been to
35:47
Speaker 2: doctors like crazy, and I came here and I had
35:50
Speaker 2: no idea that this was what was going on for me,
35:54
Speaker 2: and this is why my nervous system.
35:55
Speaker 1: Is like this.
35:56
Speaker 2: And I said to her this, You're why I wrote
35:58
Speaker 2: my book because I didn't want anybody else to suffer
36:03
Speaker 2: the way that I had suffered and thought how crazy
36:05
Speaker 2: I was. So I'm grateful for that for people and
36:10
Speaker 2: also for the therapists that it's so important for us
36:13
Speaker 2: to be able to have experienced strength and hope to
36:16
Speaker 2: share with our clients and to know the appropriate ways
36:19
Speaker 2: to share about ourselves. That's another piece that's in the book,
36:23
Speaker 2: how do I do self disclosure appropriately? So I just
36:27
Speaker 2: I wanted to give therapists specific guidelines and case vignettes
36:30
Speaker 2: that really describe with different types of families, clients and
36:35
Speaker 2: different cultures, etc. Because the last thing I'll say, guy,
36:39
Speaker 2: is my book has sold internationally at this point because
36:43
Speaker 2: it's been the original book's been on for eight years now,
36:46
Speaker 2: and I've had people from all over the world. I've
36:48
Speaker 2: consulted with people from all over the world. This is
36:51
Speaker 2: not just a United States of America thing, right, Yeah.
37:00
Speaker 1: All right. The book is called Covert Emotional Incests The
37:02
Speaker 1: Hidden Sexual Abuse, a story of hope and healing. What's
37:08
Speaker 1: the best way for people to get that book? And secondly,
37:11
Speaker 1: how are you worked? Are you working with other therapists, clinicians,
37:16
Speaker 1: what are you offering, et cetera.
37:18
Speaker 2: Okay, so right now I'm in the launch period for
37:21
Speaker 2: my book. The book will be officially launched Friday, May
37:23
Speaker 2: twenty ninth. You can go on Amazon right now or
37:27
Speaker 2: on my website at a dinabank leads dot com and
37:32
Speaker 2: you can join my launch team. You can purchase the book.
37:35
Speaker 2: You could go on Amazon right now and purchase the
37:37
Speaker 2: paperback for nine ninety nine. That price will only be
37:41
Speaker 2: on for another week and then it'll be nineteen ninety
37:43
Speaker 2: nine and on May twenty ninth, Friday, you can purchase
37:48
Speaker 2: the ebook or the kindle version of the book for
37:52
Speaker 2: ninety nine cents and that'll be on for a limited
37:55
Speaker 2: amount of time. So if you want to help me
37:58
Speaker 2: get to a number one best sellermon which is I
38:01
Speaker 2: would love to be able to say that it would
38:03
Speaker 2: be Friday the twenty ninth that you would purchase that
38:06
Speaker 2: ebook ninety nine cents.
38:08
Speaker 1: Get you the.
38:08
Speaker 2: Book audible is also the audible of the original book
38:12
Speaker 2: is on Amazon, and I will be making an audible
38:15
Speaker 2: of the updated version sometime in November, so that'll be later.
38:19
Speaker 2: But right now you can get the paperback and the ebook.
38:23
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have a little linked up here at the
38:26
Speaker 1: show notes page at the Trauma Therapists Podcast dot com.
38:28
Speaker 1: What if people want to get in.
38:30
Speaker 2: Touch with you, Oh, thank you, And I forgot to
38:33
Speaker 2: tell you that what I'm going to be developing after
38:35
Speaker 2: the summer is because I'm going on a bucket list
38:39
Speaker 2: trip for the summer. So I'm taking five weeks off
38:41
Speaker 2: and I'm going to South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana, and Ireland
38:46
Speaker 2: to my most favorite nature and being with the animals.
38:49
Speaker 2: So that's called self care, folks, that's what you do,
38:52
Speaker 2: all right. So I will be creating online courses for therapists.
38:56
Speaker 2: This is what I'm moving into now, as an online
38:58
Speaker 2: business that I can be mobile and that I can
39:02
Speaker 2: live anywhere I want to in the world. At this
39:04
Speaker 2: point in my life, at sixty three years old, I
39:06
Speaker 2: am ready to do that. So in the fall, we'ld
39:08
Speaker 2: be creating some online courses on covert emotional incestra therapists.
39:11
Speaker 2: I'll be having consultation groups and consultation sessions for professionals.
39:18
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do anything for the lay public.
39:21
Speaker 2: I'm referring people now, but I will be doing the
39:23
Speaker 2: training for the therapists and they can reach me at
39:27
Speaker 2: aDNA at Adinabankles dot com. You can always call me
39:32
Speaker 2: at five to two oho four zero four eight four
39:35
Speaker 2: sixty six. Right now, I'm in Pacific Standard time because
39:38
Speaker 2: I'm in Arizona. We never change the clock so we're
39:41
Speaker 2: equal to California.
39:42
Speaker 1: Now, okay, all right, we'll have all that linked up
39:45
Speaker 1: here at the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist
39:48
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Damn, aDNA, I love you. I love
39:52
Speaker 1: having you on here. You're welcome back anytime when you
39:55
Speaker 1: get those courses up and running, okay.
40:01
Speaker 2: And great.
40:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciate you and it's just such an inspiration.
40:08
Speaker 2: Thank you, same here guy, Thank you so much.
40:11
Speaker 1: All Right, we'll be in touch. Take care, bye bye
40:14
Speaker 1: yea