Latest / This Dad Reads / An Interview with Madeleine Roux

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An Interview with Madeleine Roux · This Dad Reads

• Jason: Welcome to another episode of This Dad Reads. I'm your host, Jason. And today I am stoked to be joined by a New York Times and USA Today best-selling author of the Asylum series and over 25 other novels for adults, teens, and kids. And her brand new Star Wars novel Legacy is out now. Please help me welcome to the show first-time guest, Madeline Rue. Madeleine: Ta da. Hi. Thank you. Jason: Hello, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Madeleine: My pleasure. Happy to be here. Jason: I'm so happy to add you to like my little collection of Star Wars authors that I've had on the show. Yeah, exactly. Madeleine: Yeah, you got your little infinity gauntlet of of Star Wars authors. Jason: Or the guy from Harry Potter who like collects people as trophies. No. Madeleine: Sure. Jason: Well, thank you for being here and carving some time to talk. And I'm sure this is an exciting time for you. Like I said, your first full-length Star Wars novel is is out in the world. So what is that feeling like? I just want to get your your reaction, first of all. Madeleine: surreal. It's it's honestly, it's like it's like so it's so surreal. yeah, I don't know. It kind of feels like there's a point in my life where I was like, it's never gonna happen. They're never gonna ask me to do it. And I was kind of at peace with it. And then it's like, surprise, here we go. and it's Jason: Here we are. Madeleine: the and it's this one, which is really intense. So yeah, it's exciting. It's obviously nerve-wracking. Like I want people to enjoy it. I'm at I'm at peace with it. I'm happy with it. but you know, it's like it's a it's a fraught experience putting something like this out. But genuinely I'm just I'm so excited and my family's so excited. Like, you know, they were the ones who got me into Star Wars. So it's very cool to get to share that with them. And yeah, it's just a lot of a lot of nerves, but also a lot of a lot of excitement and joy too. Jason: good. Well I'm glad to hear that because from a fan side and from a reader side, we always love welcoming a new voice to, you know, the Star Wars universe and to the fold. So I can only imagine what that feels like. And as I've talked to authors who've released numerous Madeleine: Yeah. Jason: Star Wars books, it never gets old. So I hope that it's one time of many for you. Madeleine: Yeah, it's technically my second I did a short story in their first in the first from a certain point of view, I Jason: Yes. Madeleine: did a little one there. so that was sort of a taste, right? And it does help. It Jason: Okay, good. Yeah. Madeleine: does help to have that experience. It 'cause once you once you sort of learn to like, you know, jump in when you have to write these like huge characters, it really does help to have a little bit of experience. Jason: Yeah. So we I mean, I know this is your like first full length Star Wars novel, but it it isn't, like Madeleine: Mm-hmm. Jason: you said, your first experience writing for the the IP. and Madeleine: Yeah. Jason: I I'm a kind of jumping the gun here a little bit, but like how big of a leap was that Madeleine: Ha ha ha. Jason: for you? Was it like creatively a different process for you or I d I I'm just curious about how like was that a mental hurdle you had to get over? Madeleine: Yeah, I mean, I think there's like a lot, there's just like a lot more in general, right? Because you've got it's like just so much more information. It feels the it's like a a very different amount of pressure because you've got these like humongous characters. I mean, not to say that Leia's parents aren't important, but it just feels different, right? It's just not really the same. And also I I wrote that. Short story before Carrie Fisher had passed. So my dog's Jason: Mm. Madeleine: gonna start playing with his toy, of course, you may hear it. Jason: No worries. Madeleine: she passed actually like pretty soon after I had like turned that story in, which was really frustrating Jason: Wow. Madeleine: because it was like, No, I've always wanted to meet you, and it was so crushing Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: and it was just I was like so devastating because she's been an a a role model for me my entire life. And so there's just a different kind of pressure when you suddenly have to be writing in her perspective and you really wanna get it right and you really wanna honor her voice and you really wanna honor the fans who love her. So, you know, there's a lot of sort of mental hyping yourself up that you have to do and a lot of preparation. And I was reading her memoirs, kind of the whole time that I was working on this, just to make sure that I had her voice like very clear in my head. So not that there isn't pressure for Ray, but it's it's just is a little different. You know, there's still or Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: there's still her story is still unfolding in a in a lot Jason: Right. Madeleine: of ways. So Jason: And you know, that's such a interesting perspective to have too. Like, well, who knows if if Carrie would have ever picked up that story or this one at some point. And so, man, that I can only imagine like what that must feel like. But I what what a legacy to be carrying on and like what an appropriate book Madeleine: Yeah. Jason: to like keep her voice alive and keep that character going. So that's so special. Madeleine: Yeah, you know, it's it's so tough that we just you know, we didn't really get to have her for the third movie and I know that Jason: Right. Madeleine: was like so difficult for the production side and then, you know, it's like this is one of the ways I think that you can sort of still honor that character and honor her without doing a bunch of weird like CGI stuff or you know, like I just feels like little Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Madeleine: more wholesome in in that way. So yeah, it was like, you know, very emotional in that sense. And honestly, like I guess the the greatest feedback I've heard so far is that people think she's really like I I nail her in this and that is like to me like a very rewarding piece of feedback to get. Jason: Yeah, I would agree with that sentiment, definitely. And this is a spoiler free conversation. And obviously if the book is newly out, a lot of people start to experience it. But I would agree that the characterization of Leia was dead on. I could hear Carrie's voice in all of her lines. So congrats on that r in that respect. Madeleine: Hm. Thank you. Thank you. That that no, that means a lot. That means a lot. I worked very hard. I mean, there were days where you're like, I ha what didn't write a word for three days 'cause you're just turning it over. Like it has to sound it has to sound perfect, Jason: Right. Madeleine: you know? It has to like just you have to be able to hear it as soon as it as soon as you read it. So Jason: Of course. Well, taking a step back a little bit, I do want to dive a little more obviously into the book. But I am Madeleine: Mm-hmm. Jason: curious because you said obviously you have your family supporting you throughout this journey and you're so excited to be kind of launching into a bigger, a bigger part of the Star Wars universe now. But what was your introduction to this franchise? Like I just want to hear your backstory and kind of what kicked it all off for you. Madeleine: Sure. I I was I told the podcast earlier today, like it's j it's crazy that genuinely some of my earliest, like you know, you have like fake memories from your family telling you things or like you've seen pictures of yourself doing stuff. And so you sort of like implant these memories of yourself in childhood. Jason: Right. Madeleine: But genuinely some of my earliest like I know it's like me generating these memories is watching Star Wars with my brothers and playing with the action figures and you know, we had the we had the Millennium Falcon, we had the giant like Darth Vader case that opened up. We, you know, we just like we had all of it. And I just remember we had this like these built-ins in my our living room and the V of course the like big chunky eighties TV like fit into the built-in and I would just and it was up a little higher and I was I'm short now, but I was, you know, very short then when I was six, seven, whatever. And I would just like stand I would stand in front of the TV and just like stare up at it and watch and watch those movies on repeat. Weirdly, I had like I really was not a new hope child. I really loved to I was like, nope, I want the I want to start in the middle, I guess, a lot. And there was one point in my life where I was like, I think I've seen a new hope maybe like twice. I should rewatch it. I but I've seen Return of the Jedi truly like fifty times or something. So Yeah, I don't know. I think I just like was so obsessed with Leia and I just wanted to watch her scenes over and over and over again. and yeah, and then playing with my brothers and they had a very like serious system for divvying up the action figures. So I, of course, as the youngest, was only allowed to pick three, or I got to pick one, and then they like gave me two. So I, of course, picked Darth Vader because Mama didn't raise no fool. It's like, if you're if you're making these BS rules, then I'm gonna loophole it. So I picked Jason: There you go. Madeleine: Arth Vader and then I think they gave me Lobot and one of the like green medical droids that's getting pulled apart in Java's Palace. So Jason: Like if you're gonna take one of the best ones, we're gonna give you some some other outliers. Madeleine: Yeah, look, all respect to Lobot. They really gave him some stuff to do in the comics. But at the time, at the time in the 90s, there wasn't much. Jason: Yeah, back then I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Madeleine: so yeah, it was it was funny. And his cape fell off, of course, right away. So I had to make him new ones out of construction paper. I've told this story a million times. I swear to God, it's true. It's like so again, so deep in my memory. I can still remember how his shoulders were always like crusty from the Elvis glue because The cape would obviously fall off its construction paper and I just make a new one and we start the whole process. Jason: That's amazing. Does that toy still exist somewhere? Is it still around? Madeleine: It does somewhere. My mom was in this like she went through this phase of making me these like little jar terrariums out of the old Star Wars figures. And I was like, Mom, these are really actually like priceless. Please stop. But yeah. So there's Jason: Look how pretty. Madeleine: like a Leo, there's Leo ones kicking around somewhere. But I'm sure Darth is he's somewhere. The all of those got I mean, at least my dad understood too, like we gotta at least save all these 'cause like, you know Jason: Okay, good. Good. Madeleine: the the the love continued. My you know, my niece and nephew were both into it as well. So Yeah. But that's a the childhood Jason: Okay. Good to hear. Well, outside of Star Wars sorry, go ahead. Madeleine: childhood memories, like the first of ever was the worst for me. Jason: That's amazing. And I I'm assuming then that like the prequel trilogy was kind of hitting as you got older and like I'm as did those things kind of like continue to track with your yeah. Madeleine: Yeah, like high school. Yeah, look look, I was not a prequels person. I wanted to be. I was like, you know, in my little outfit at midnight and I was so excited, and then I was like, I'm not sure about my feelings for this. So Jason: I think we were probably I think we're probably around the same age, so yeah, I was yeah. Madeleine: Yeah, I was like a teenager and I was just like, huh? Like I don't okay. I'm not sure this is for me. And so I kind of actually like had a fallow period where I like bounced off of Star Wars altogether, and Jason: Okay. Madeleine: got into other stuff. I think that was right around when my Lord of the Rings obsession was like kicking into high gear. So Jason: okay, okay. Madeleine: yeah, so I kind of bounced off of it and then in college actually I played Knights of the Old Republic and I was like, hang on. We are so back. Like we are so back. This is everything I've ever wanted Star Wars to be. It's so like philosophical and grown up and the writing is so good. And that was really what like hooked me back in. And then I was just sort of like, you know, back into the media. And, you know, I think I like came to peace with the with the prequels. And then the Clone Wars was out by then. So I was like, wait a minute, this is great too. Like all this other stuff was going on. So Yeah, that was sort of my my journey. And then once that happened, like, you know, that then it didn't go away. Then it then it stayed it stayed strong. So Jason: Nice. I feel like there's kind of a similar trajectory that people of our generation have. Like you're introduced to it really young and then somewhere along the way you fall off. Like you don't think it's cool or like it it wasn't as cool to like Star Wars, I would say, when we were younger. And so obviously Madeleine: No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason: there was, you know, like you said, the midnight premieres, it was still a huge cultural thing, but it wasn't like you weren't like waving your freak flag like you do, like we do, I do now. and like that I do feel like there's always a moment where you come back and you just lean into it and lean into it hard. Madeleine: Yeah. And, you know, it's sort of it that's so interesting because like I you know, now watching like, you know, younger kids grow up, like my friends' kids and my niece and nephew, like they never have to sort of have that like it's a secret. They could just like it. It's just sort of Jason: No. Yeah. Madeleine: a totally different experience for them. But yeah, there was a a period there I was like, I don't know if I wanna really like shout to the rooftops that this is that this is my thing. but yeah, now obviously there's no there's no hiding it, so Jason: Nice. Well, you mentioned too your Lord of the Rings era, but I'm also curious, just like outside of Star Wars and everything, like I'm getting to know you too. I'm sure some of the listeners are as well. Like what else kind of makes you tick like as a person, as a writer? And I love to ask this question too, because there obviously we're in like a pop culture Star Wars landscape, but like what is something else that people might not know that you nerd out about? Like what is something that you love to nerd out about? Madeleine: Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. okay. Well, I I kind of have like a very specific set of skills, I guess. I like writing and I really like reading and I really love video games. And I'm really into my dogs. I have two little chihuahuas, I love them. and I really love like lifting weights. That's like my other passion. Jason: Okay, Madeleine: it usually Jason: nice. Madeleine: finds its way into my books in some way, shape or form because I get so frustrated with the way like people being in shape is portrayed. Like, you know that person would be eating constantly, right? and yeah, and I'm, you know, I'm so I love like I was like a huge bioware person. Obviously Knights of the Republic kicked it off, but like the Dragon Age games, obviously I have like a Dragon Age half sleeve that's in progress. But I love those games. I love Mass Effect. I also play like I play the Star Wars MMO still to this day. yeah, and like Lord of the Rings, like just kinda all like broad fantasy. I was real I had a huge Game of Thrones period. And yeah, just kind of I'm I'm I'm feel like I'm just hitting all the really like corny big ones, but that is kind of that is kind of how it is. I love I love geek culture. And I and I eventually got really into going to conventions and met people who cosplayed and like made a bunch of friends that way. So then I got into doing that and that's so fun because like you get to craft and be creative and hang out with people. And genuinely like the two Star Wars celebrations I went to were some of the best times I've I've had at a convention. They were to the I just think about it all the time, how much fun I had and how good the energy was. So yeah, I you know, obviously I still go to conventions a lot, but it's for work more these days. I don't do as much Jason: Sure. Madeleine: as much dressing up. I miss it. But and I got really into painting, so like I paint a lot now. I got to share Jason: Awesome. Madeleine: some of my artwork from the book, which was really cool. And the people Inkstone, the people at Inkstone were so cool, they reached out to me. They're like, So you like really do art? And I was like, I'm trying. And they were like, Do you wanna help us design this special edition? And I was like, yes. yes. So Jason: That's amazing. I did not even know that. Madeleine: yeah, so the design on the the gold embossed design on the cover is like from my sketch that I did. yeah, it was Jason: Amazing. That is so cool. Madeleine: it was really, really cool. I'm very excited about getting my hands off one of those. but yeah, that's kind of Jason: It is a gorgeous addition, yeah. Madeleine: it's cool. I mean, that's so cool. and that's like I get I did a book for Critical Role and like they are putting out a sprayed edge edition of that, and then Star Wars is doing this one and I'm like Whoa, I had zero and now I have two in the same year. That's like so much, but Jason: Amazing. Madeleine: it's amazing. So yeah, I mean I I live a pretty nerdy life. my my most my current fixation is Thunderbolts. I know it came out a year ago. I don't care. I love that movie. I'm Jason: Ha ha ha. Madeleine: obsessed with it. And I like talk to everybody about it. it was a huge inspiration for parts of this book because I w it came out like while I was Jason: Interesting. Madeleine: deep in the trenches of of writing this. So yeah, that's that's a little bit about me. lift and weights, chihuahuas. Jason: Love it. What years, I'm curious, did you go to Star Wars Celebration? Madeleine: gosh. It was like a while ago. It was Jason: okay, okay. Madeleine: yeah, not recent. It was like a it one were they both Orlando? No, one was Anaheim and one was Orlando. But it was a while ago. It was like Jason: Okay, okay. Madeleine: the year I don't know, twenty Jason: It's okay. Madeleine: probably eight, seven, eight years ago in that range. Yeah. Yeah, it was a while ago. Jason: Okay, okay, nice. Well are you not planning to being in LA in next year? Madeleine: I would love to be currently no, but I would love to be. It's hard. It's hard to get the yeah. Jason: Okay, okay. We'll find a way to we'll find a way to get you there. Madeleine: I will be at Sandy Comic Con though, upcoming. So yes. Very excited. Jason: Excellent. Excellent. Okay, good to know. I usually ask we'll f we'll clarify where people can find you a little bit later, but I unfortunately won't be there this year. I'm so sad. How dare you bring that up because I can't come anyway. No. Madeleine: sure. Yep. Yep. bummer. I'm sorry. I know so many people this year are not going and I was like, no, I'm finally coming back. Jason: No, please. And they just announced that awesome like new wraparound jacket. It's Madeleine: Yes, the cover, the new jacket, yes. Jason: so pretty. Everyone's freaking out about that. The day of this recording is when they announced it and the internet is like losing its mind how gorgeous it is. Madeleine: Yes, I am so excited. I can't wait to get one. Jason: It's so pretty. so now let's officially dive in Star Wars Legacy. Obviously, Leia and Ray on the cover. And most people, if they're paying attention, if they're Star Wars fans, they're aware of this book. But I would love to hear it straight from the author themselves. Like, what is this book all about? Like why are people why do you think people should care? Why do you think people should pick it up? Madeleine: Yeah, it's tricky. I think the elevator pitch for this book is tricky because it is at the end of the day a book about feelings. And you know, I one of the one of the things I was so specific about coming on board was sort of like, yeah, this isn't gonna be like a rollicking galaxy spanning like We're here, we're there, we're everywhere. I really want to just force these two people into one location and make them get along and make them talk about the hard stuff that that I think everyone wants to see them talk about. and for me it's really about sort of giving catharsis to like this. Part of the trilogy that I think we were robbed of a little bit just from circumstances that were totally no you know, like outside of everyone's control. The fact that we couldn't have Leia on screen a ton, in the third movie. I think this book is like an opportunity to sort of just like close some of those like open ends, right? To sort of like give a nice little tie off some knots, I think. And and I think I think also the best thing I can say is like if it's something you're wondering about, it's probably in it. If there's a if there's a question you have about do they talk about this? Is this a conversation they have? It's probably in there. which is also a thing I was really determined to to make happen. but it's really about, you know Ray has this lightsaber, it's broken. She can she has the technical prowess to remake the hilt, and it is essentially ready to go. But the crystal is not in good shape. And force healing is a very esoteric, very difficult, rare skill. and while she has some information about it in the in the ancient texts, she's not having the best time making that happen. So, The beginning of the book is really her discovering, like, wait a minute, this force healing thing is a lot more complicated than I thought. It seems to be perhaps tied to my emotional state, which is not in the best place. And so her and Leia sort of launch into this quest to heal their relationship, heal themselves, and also heal the crystal to hopefully finally fix the lightsaber. I mean, spoiler alert, she does, because it's in the we know, because it's in the the next movie, but yeah, so I without spoilers, I think that's kind of the the pitch is you know, put them in their in a in a one big get along shirt and shove them out out the falcon. Jason: Excellent. And yeah, thank you. That I feel like the hearing it straight from the author themselves is sometimes just the best way to to describe it, right? Because you can read all the book descriptions in the world. You can listen to pre, you can listen to reviewers or anything like that. But thank you for doing that because I always like to hear that straight from their mouth. Madeleine: Yeah, what what do I think the book is about? yeah, feelings, I think. Yeah. Jason: Feelings? Great. I love it. I'm also curious, like what sort of research or prep did you do for this book? Madeleine: Sure. I think I mentioned I was like I was reading Carrie Fisher's memoirs the whole time just to really make sure I was gonna crack open, sort crack the code on on getting her voice right. and and I'll honestly like her st her reflections about the Star about Star Wars and being in Star Wars and Princess Leia were very useful in a lot of ways too. Just to sort of like okay, like I wanna make sure This book also honors like her sort of feelings about about Star Wars. but you know, it's hard because you're sort of like there's so much. It's this that's the scariest thing, right? Is like there's so much you could do. And something that was important to me, and I'm sure this will maybe be a heartbreaker for some people, but like I really wanted to get them away from the core team because. I just wanted to make sure it was a book about them and their relationship. And so if you have access to this sort of like vast array of resistance, you know, heroes, I think then the then the temptation becomes like, well, she can go bounce this off of Finn. She can go bounce this off of Rose or whoever, right? Like I just really wanted to make sure that it was like No, that is removed that you have to rely on each other. And even if there are other characters you're interacting with, you don't trust them on the same level. So that was a huge part of it, was sort of like just getting down to how do you even set this up? How do you even set this up for success in a way, right? and then it was like, you know, once once Tython became the place that I wanted to set it, you know, I was reading Adam Christopher's book, The Shadow the Sith. It's great and there's like a lot of the DNA of that book is in here. And you know, Claudia Gray's work with Leia is so so good. And I just, you know, revis revisited bloodline to sort of get some ideas about like, okay, I want to make sure I'm thinking about Leia in this time of her life as well. obviously I rewatched the movies a few times to to get some get some ideas of, but to be honest, like it wasn't as much of a like I I just didn't want to go too far and and and take in too much because then I think you get tempted to like go in too many directions. And again, I just wanted this to stay really, really narrow and focused on them. and then once you're deeper in things come up, right? Like once once we sort I sort of was like creating this family that they were going to end up interacting with and then it's like, okay, well they're from They're from Hayes Minor and and then it's like, okay, well, like what has been done around this? Like, have we even seen it? Is it physically represented anywhere? And then you go find the comics and you're like, hey, there's like this like one off character like waltzes through a panel. But she could be fun. Let's like let's make her the villain. Like, you know, here's some here's some low level fascist. Let's make them the villain. And give her a whole tortured backstory. That's that sounds like fun. so yeah, so you sort of have all these little you have all these little threads that you're starting to gather and then you can start pulling on them and and they'll lead you to new ideas and and new things. And you know, Tython is very prominent in the video games as well. So I was like, Okay, I'd love to like make sure I'm honoring how it I mean, it it didn't always look like Southern California, just so everybody knows. Jason: Ha ha ha. Madeleine: We're in the northern hemisphere of Tython. It's cold and there's mountains. but like I I wanted to make sure it sort of like honors okay, we've seen it like Mando Grogu, we've seen it in Annam's Jason: Mm-hmm. Madeleine: book, we've seen it in the video game. You it's like kind of popped up here and there, so to make sure and in the comics. it was actually that like I think it's in the Vader comics, they go and it's like this ice cap on on Tython, and there's this place called the Martyrium of Frozen Tears. And I was like, well, that's metal. What's that? Let's like, wait, maybe there's other like maybe there's a whole temple full of weird stuff that like the people who built that would have like built other structures. So yeah, I don't know. It's a lot of just sort of Well you're just sort of gathering and gathering and gathering and Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: then seeing what is exciting. And then because Star Wars is so vast and so many people have touched it, you're bound to have like have gathered something that is then gonna lead you down. you know, another another path. So Jason: Course. And you kind of answered my next question in some of your answer to that one. Yeah, but I'm curious when it comes to some of these new characters that you said kind of they might arise just because of a certain thread that you're setting up or they might meet a certain narrative need. But I'm curious, like, is your approach to writing them or kind of crafting them, how is that different from like writing pr existing characters. I I mean obviously maybe the the villain here, she up they she appeared in one panel of a comic book, but you're essentially fleshing her out, right? like how does how is yeah, exa exactly. Yeah. And like so Madeleine: Yeah, she has nothing. I think she has one line in the comic, yeah. Jason: how is that I'm just curious about your like creative process and like how you flesh these characters out who are brand new. Madeleine: Sure. well, I think, you know, Star Wars is great at archetypes. And I think one of the things you want to do is sort of draw lines to other things people have seen. So at least you know what neighbor sort of like general neighborhood you're operating in. So a character like Brilla, you know, we've gotten some really great portrayals of sort of these mid level imperials and first order characters, especially Andor, I think, has done like such an incredible job of of doing that. And so You're like, okay, I need people to be like, this is we're in the neighborhood of Dead Ramiro. We're in the neighbor, right? Like, and then obviously I want her to be a different character and stand apart. And so for me, then it becomes, okay, we need her to obviously weave into the plot, but thematically, what are we talking about? What what is Ray's arc? And then everybody else's has to sort of like orbit around that. And they have to add to it in some way, or With the villain, I'm often sort of inverting the hero's journey so that while they have a lot of things in common and they are very similar, Ray remains the hero because she can draw certain conclusions or learn certain things about herself that the villain never does, right? That she also has the opportunity to become a better person or to grow, but she takes the opposite. She does the thing you don't want her to do at almost damn near every turn. So yeah, that's so that's how I'm structuring it, right? It's it's like logistical on one's in one sense, it's archetypal in the second sense, and then in the third sense, it's like thematically I need this person to like hook into what the bigger picture is and what we're actually like saying in the book. And it's the same with Gav, who's kind of the only other POV character, in that he's sort of a Han Solo type, but like we're playing with that archetype, right? Where he thinks he's sort of the swaggering frontline guy and then through the events of the book realizes like, nope, I actually don't like that. I do not want to be on the front lines with the blaster. I want to be part of something and I want to rebel, but that's not really where I fit. and so again, you're like, that's a logistical and a plot element, but then how can we have his sort of like examination of his own mistakes and his own weaknesses? roughly follow the same trajectory as as raised. Jason: Yeah, and like I'm again, I'm so glad that you're talking about some of these archetypes because so often Star Wars can like very simply be distilled down to like good versus evil right. But as we all know, like the human experience is so much more complex and nuanced than that. And I think you did a really great job of exploring that gray area that exists in everybody and exists in the humans and the people and the aliens of this book. and especially in people who we call heroes, right? Madeleine: Yeah, I'm so disinterested in yeah, I'm so disinterested in like, they're good, they're bad. I kinda like fart noise. Like it just doesn't like that's not fun to Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: write. That's not fun to really read, I don't think. I just I don't I don't want I I want Leia to make mistakes. I want Ray to make mistakes. Like there's just I I want them to feel human at the end of the day. And like I just don't think you get that if everything they do is like above reproach and so overthought and and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm much more interested in just choices and why and okay, so you did that, now what? Right? And and can you draw something from the consequences of of those choices? Jason: Definitely. And going back to the Brilla of it all, like you do it is definitely a stark difference on what is going on with Ray and the hero versus villain side. But I have to say, sh you show I don't think this is a spoiler to say. And if it is, maybe I c I might have to edit this part. But like I've never seen a villain crash out like happen in real time, like with the way that Brilla does. Like she I wasn't expect any And I hope that's not a spoiler, but like that is it's such an interesting take on a Star Wars villain who you're literally watching like self-destruct. So I I really Madeleine: Yeah. Yeah. Jason: want I am so interested in that and like like Madeleine: I'm so glad. I'm so she I'm so fond of her. I mean, she's a terrible, terrible person, but I that's that's why I like her. I just think sh I just think it's like there's cause there are mo moments where you're sort of rooting for her and you're like, my god, she's gonna figure it out finally. And then it's like, Nope. And you just wanna like shake her because it's all there. It's all right in front of her. She even knows, right? She even knows she's kind of being played at every turn, but she's so Beholden to these things she believes about herself, which is sort of the crucial theme of the book is like, what do you actually believe about yourself and how willing are you to like question that and and say, wait a minute, I thought I was this one thing, but maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm this other thing, Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Madeleine: or maybe I'm lots of things. Yeah, and Jason: Right. And just like the the an imperial who doesn't like really know how to play the game very well. Like like you know what I'm saying? I feel like most of the villains they're so like strategic and they're like trying to like get up the ladder or like play the game. Like I'm just like I does this girl know what she's doing? Like I don't think she knows how to imperial, like Madeleine: Yeah, well, I I think for me too, it's like she, you know, I think in a different story the twist is like, did she really get screwed over? But the fact is she Jason: Right. Madeleine: did and she knows, and we kind of know too, from like her introductory chapter. So it's this sort of like you're introducing this pain point to somebody who is so convinced of their competence and so convinced of their upward trajectory, and they are are fresh off of a huge success. And then and then it is like shown to them that all of that is a lie. They are disposable. And like now what? And I just, you know, you're just sort of like pushing someone off one of those little like hot wheels. Like, you know, they're just like going Yeah, and watching them go up Jason: And watching them crash. Yeah. Madeleine: and down and all around and flying off the track. yeah. And I I don't know, I was just like, I just think we need something crazy. I like I just Jason: Yeah, it was it was so fun. And like I I were corporate America like to me it was just like watching a corporate America someone crash out or like watching a reality a reality TV person. Yes, yes. Madeleine: Well, but all these people are incompetent. Yeah. It's like, look at I mean, I'm not I'm not gonna say anything, but look I mean, look at how fast we're going. Look at like how many scaramugis have some of these people lasted. You know what I mean? Like, she's not dumb, but she's not it's also like there's no you can't be good at a game that can be changed and rigged at any point. Like, sure, Jason: Right, right, right. Madeleine: she has done she has performed competently in her job up until this point on like a backwater planet that had no defenses that was immediately Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Madeleine: taken over. Yeah, sure. Like great job, I guess. but and then it's like, you know, and we you have done what we needed you to do. You fulfilled the role we needed you to fill. And now we need to do this other thing with you because it's good for us. And that's how these machines work, right? That's how these Jason: Right, right. Madeleine: organizations work. so yeah, I think like I think it's interesting to sort of introduce that tension of she is getting screwed over and you kind of want her to like rise above that and figure it out and get like get it in, right? And like, Jason: Yeah, yeah. Madeleine: maybe she'll like get one over on hucks. No. Jason: Well, I mean, that's what I feel like we're primed to v r expect, right? Like and you're like, she's gonna like find a way. Yeah, that's so I'm so glad you said that because I for the most part was just enjoying watching her struggle. But I think somewhere somewhere somewhere Madeleine: Crash and burn, baby. Jason: back there I was like, she's gonna like figure it out. Like she's an imperial, like she's the bad guy, like but anyway. Madeleine: Yeah, well and and then I I mean I don't want to spoil the ending, but I think her sort of fine her like send-off and her internal thoughts during that are incredibly illuminating about what what we're talking about. and I did also want to position her as like someone who was in Huck's cohort, right? That like this is a person he knows and that he kind of liked and was like friendly with. And it is like another little like pebble in the bucket for him of like, ooh like, is this? Like obviously Jason: Mm-hmm. Madeleine: his turn is ultimately about how much he hates Kylo Wren, but it doesn't hurt to give him a few other things to sort of be thinking about. Mm-hmm. Jason: To nudge him along. Yeah. I'm also curious to know, as a writer and as a fan, what challenges did you face in this book with writing scenes with some of the most like famous characters in all of pop culture? I know that you've talked about kind of the weight that it brings, but like I guess what I don't want even want to say just what challenges, but like how did that make you feel like writing scenes with Leia and some other cameo people who I don't know if I should say. Madeleine: Yeah, I know. Ooh, I know. It's scary. It's really scary. Jason: It's scary. Madeleine: it's really scary. Honestly, getting into like writing a chapter for like, you know, the sort of original characters is so liberating in a sense because you're just like, Okay, whew. I don't have to I don't have to spend yeah, don't have to spend three days Jason: Pressure's off. Yeah. Madeleine: w thinking about how to phrase this sentence. and I hope I think that might come through, especially with Brilla, that I'm just having a lot of fun in those in those chapters. it's it's really scary at f at first and then it sort of levels out because you just sort of get these touch points of like, I'm gonna come back to these very specific things just to check in with myself, right? Is this like doing what I need it to do? Are they saying these things for a very specific reason? I'm not just doing it to do it, right? I'm not just putting this character in just to put them in that they're serving a specific function. And I think when there's like a a function and a motivation, that actually takes a lot of the fear away because you're like, well, if they really need to say this and they really need to have this conversation, they have sort of a fixed personality in a lot of ways, right? Especially some of the people we're talking about, not to spoil. And so you could just go back to it and be Well, what are their sort of core philosophies in life? What are their core, you know, emotions that they sort of default to? And like yeah, I was I was saying on a different podcast that with Ray, it's like I just kept going back to the minute I connected with her, which is when she's sitting in against the ATAT, and she puts the helmet on and she's like looking up at the sky, and there's this tension between God, I want to get out of here, and I can't because what if my parents come back? Right. That there is this sort of dreamer in her and this adventurer Jason: Mm. Madeleine: in her that she can't indulge because she doesn't want to leave in case in case her parents come back for her, and she's so convinced they will. So that sort of like s like sweetness but also an almost like childlike sort of like loneliness was something that I just kept coming back to. Is like that is the girl that I am thinking about is like her Jason: Mm. Madeleine: putting the helmet on, looking at the sky. And so if I just keep returning to this like kind of North Star, I think I can avoid a lot of pitfalls. and yeah, I mean it's It doesn't really get easier. It just changes. It just again, you hit sort of a like momentum and you're like, no, no, it's like this is here for a reason. So I can Jason: Mm. Madeleine: I I know what it has to do. I know what it has to do. And then the question is okay, if you know this character, how how would they do it? And yeah, it's not like I think people think it's gonna be so fun. It's not. It's like so much pressure. It's so much Jason: Sure. Madeleine: pressure. And I I don't know. Like all I can do is like be happy with with it, right? But you it there is this awareness of like it's gonna be just picked apart. Everyone is gonna be picking everything apart. And it is hard to turn that voice off. But you know, at the end of the day, I I at a certain point I wrote the book like no one's gonna see it. I just was like, that's how I approached it. I was like, this isn't for me. No one's gonna see. No one's gonna see it. It's ju it's just it this Jason: It's just fanfiction for you. Yeah. Madeleine: is just the most intense, precise fan fiction I've ever written in my life. it has to be airtight. but genuinely there was like Jason: Yeah, right. But that's a healthy perspective, I would say, at a certain point, right? Like you have a job I mean, and you're hired to do a job. So at a certain point you kind of have to like ride a ride above that stress and then just carry Madeleine: Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jason: on, right? Madeleine: Right. They they're they're hiring you 'cause they think you can do it. You kinda it helps Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: too that I was f pretty fresh off of doing a Marvel project where it was like chapter one, Thor, chapter two, Loki, chapter three, Odin, chapter four, Tony Stark, like you know, you're just like you're just sort of like ra Jason: You were primed. Yeah. Madeleine: yeah, you're rapid firing through some of the most iconic superheroes ever to be. exist and you're like, okay, better better nail this. well yeah, I mean it it does build Jason: So no big deal, you can do it. We'll just call Madeline. We'll just call her, she can do it. Madeleine: it but it does build a sense of confidence in yourself that you know I've done it Jason: Of course, I can imagine. Madeleine: I've done it before. I can do it again. And I knew and I knew with Leia like as much as there's a ton of pressure, I was like, I was born to do this. So like I've been practicing. Yeah. Jason: Yeah, and if it comes from a place of love, right? Like if you love this character, like every time I've talked to a Star Wars creative author, like it's all because they love these characters and this IP and it comes from a really pure place of of fandom at the end of the day. Madeleine: Yeah, and also a sort of like, Well, I've seen it done badly. So And I hate that. Pure. That's I mean, sorry, you get a little you get a little impurity with me. It's it just the way it goes as a neurodivergent person. I can't help but say it. that sometimes you're like, No, I could do that better. and then you're Jason: Yeah, right. Madeleine: like, Well, okay, here's your chance. Don't don't screw it Jason: There you go. Exactly. Madeleine: up. Don't screw it up. Jason: The world is watching. Only the world is gonna be watching. It's fine. Madeleine: No biggie. Jason: No biggie. On that vein, Madeline, what sort of legacy are you hoping to leave imprint on the Star Wars universe with this book? Madeleine: Ooh, that's a great and difficult question. honestly, I I love Ray and I have always been a Ray defender, and that was a huge part of writing this book. Is I'm like, I really want people who come to this and maybe like aren't her biggest fan or don't feel like they have a sense of maybe like who she is internally, that this offers a much deeper understanding of who she is and how she ticks on the inside. and I think it's a really unique opportunity to sort of offer some catharsis on this relationship that we never really got to see a lot of and, you know, sort of a retrospective on these movies in a way where you're like, you don't really usually get to do this, right? Like normally this book would be written Right after The Last Jedi comes out. But now we have like the benefit of hindsight in a lot of ways and a lot of feelings about this stuff and a lot of unanswered questions about this stuff. So I hope that my legacy is that people buy this book hoping to get questions answered and those questions get answered. Jason: Well, you answered this question very well. So kud kudos, congrats to that. Madeleine: Thank you. What a relief. What a relief. my god. Jason: so as the you know promo cycle is kicking off, and you mentioned you're gonna be at San Diego Comic Con this year. Where can people find you, interact with you? if they want to get this book signed or buy this book or Madeleine: Sure. Jason: what what kind of what's on the what's on the docket? Madeleine: Sure. I don't know if there's any copies left, but the Inkstone version, the special edition, those are all signed. They all come signed. I will be at San Diego Comic-Con, so I will be happy to sign that book and any of my other books if you have them. That would be sweet. and I'm on Instagram at Blue Sky, and that's kind of it. and it's A-U-T-H-O-R-O-U-X Authoroo. and I love to hear from people. I love to chat about nerd stuff, Star Wars, Yeah. So and also too, like I tend to if people get in touch and they like really can't make it to an event, I'm going to I might be at Dragon Con this year. I don't know yet. That's an Atlanta Jason: Okay. Madeleine: Labor Day weekend. So that is a possibility. Otherwise, though, like I'm very cool about I'll just like s send a book plate for you to like sp stick in the book for free. I'll just send them to people. So if you really want it signed and you Jason: You heard it here first, folks. Madeleine: yeah, if you really want any of my books signed, not just this one, and you can't or you're like international or something, or you can't make it to the to the con then I'm usually very cool about. I'm not gonna do like 35, but I will do a few, right? I'll do one or two. So yeah. yeah. I'm I'm pretty chill about that stuff. And say hi at Comic Con if you see me, I love to love to talk about Star Wars or tattoos or lifting weights or chihuahuas. If you have dog pictures, always send me dog pictures. Jason: mean we're half we're about halfway through the year. This is obviously gonna be a big release for you. And you had another book already come out this year. Is there anything else on your the release schedule for you in the coming months? Or if people like your writing Madeleine: Unfortunately I like Jason: or Madeleine: yeah, I can't announce the next thing I have. I mean I I have another Jason: Ten four. Okay. Madeleine: I ha it's not like that. It's not like a like an IP thing, but we just we're Jason: Okay, okay. Madeleine: in the middle of like doing the cover and all that good stuff and I don't think we have a release date yet. But I'm I have another young adult horror book coming out. I'm pretty sure next year we're still figuring that out. But yeah, I'm kind of I I I'm usually have like sixteen things coming out, but This is sort of like a a quieter time for me. But I had a girl walks into a forest, comes out, into the forest rather, last year. It just came out in paperback. it was nominated for a Stoker Award. It won a Kirkus Best novel of twenty twenty five. So, Jason: Congrats, it's so cool. Madeleine: thank you. It's my baby. I love it. If you love Baba Yaga, you should go read it. yeah. So Jason: Awesome. Well, I will definitely be linking all of your socials and anywhere else that you can interact with you in the notes of this episode. So please go follow her, find her, visit her, show her your dog pictures, do all the things. Madeleine: Yeah Jason: Madun, thank you so much for being here. I had such a great time and congratulations on the book. Madeleine: Ooh wait, can I ask you one question? Jason: please. Madeleine: What did you think of Meepka? Jason: I thought she was precious. Madeleine: She's my little baby. She's my little favorite she's my little guy. Jason: Yes. also like as a father, I was like, I I feel some of the vibes and frustrations that some of the people like I love that he just like there she just gets worn like around like Madeleine: Yes, she's she's my favorite. I so partial to her and I just is like it's just every Star Wars project needs a little guy, right? That needs a little scamp and so she she Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: gets to be the little scamp. Jason: Yeah, for for reference, do you wanna expla can we explain who they are? Madeleine: sure. Yeah, of course. I mean, I've shared art of her and I talk about her constantly on social media. Yeah, so there's Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just so people know what we're talking about. Madeleine: there there's this little camp of refugees on Tython that Ray and Leia end up interacting with and there's sort of this ragtag bunch that's been assembled of from all different quarters of the galaxy from being displaced and one of them is an orphan named Meepka who's a Chadra fan and they're like little bat people. and she's young and precocious and Jason: Yeah. Madeleine: I don't wanna I don't wanna spoil her backstory because I think it's actually quite quite fun. But she loves being very silly and scampy and and she is a treasure hunter. So Jason: Mm-hmm. Madeleine: she and Ray immediately have a little connection point and Jason: And she loves to help and like, you know, be in the mix, be with the adults. Madeleine: Yeah. Yes. She wants to be involved at every possible Jason: Mm. Madeleine: point. She has no filter and she's sort of the inner child of this book, which can get pretty heavy at times. I wanted us to never f not ever have like a moment that is like too too dark. So she's she's sort of the little heart of this of this book and I I can't wait for people to meet her. I'm so I'm so in love with her. Jason: Yeah, she's she's precious. And as a father who has raised two kids who have gone through, you know, toddler ages, I was like, I I got this one clocked. Like Yeah. Madeleine: Yes. Yeah, she's gonna I have she's a handful. She's a handful. So Jason: Thank you again so much for taking time to chat with me today, and congrats again on Legacy. Madeleine: Thank you. Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun.