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Amanda McCracken: When Longing Becomes Your Lover · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person, you'll become like me, fiercely loyal and want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them not only as incredible storytellers, talking a little bit about some of the terms, neuroscience terms that we learned in the of reading this book, one of which was lover shadow. Can you talk a little bit about introducing us to that? Amanda Mccracken: Mm. Mm-hmm. Sure, yeah, this is a term I came across actually in a psychoanalytic book called, what was it called? I love this book, Dreams ⁓ Love and Other Fateful Encounters, I think is what it's called, Ethel Person. And it was a term actually coined by H.G. Wells to describe... Jennifer Jumba: but also the thoughtful individuals who have come to know. Amanda McCracken is a journalist and essayist whose writing explores the raw, real, parts of the human experience, from the science of healing to ache of longing. ⁓ With a background in health, linguistics, athletics, and a deep curiosity for drives our motivation, Amanda's voice is at once intimate, incisive, and widely respected. Amanda Mccracken: It's really kind of this complex thing to describe and that was something I really struggled to describe in the book too. it's like basically ⁓ this idea have, even an image, but more so an idea that you have of this person. And you have ⁓ this person that Jennifer Jumba: Her work has been featured in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Guardian, Glamour, L, ESPN, AARP, Huffington Post, Outside, Men's Journal, Runner's World, Triathlete, and Women's Running. Whether unpacking the neuroscience of desire or exploring the emotional grit behind endurance sports, Amanda writes with both vulnerability and journalistic rigor. As many of you know, this podcast is a passion project of mine. Amanda Mccracken: want to be with when you grow up. That's how I understood it. So even as a child, this is this idea that you conceive. way it's described is that you kind of go through life trying to match this image or this concept or this idea you have of a person to all of these other people that you encounter to see if it's a match. And Jennifer Jumba: because as a reader, I love being able to meet and talk to the writers I read. I've been overwhelmed with the support from the writers I do know, so thank you. Amanda was the very first writer to reach out via email in December, and I had just started in November, with this impressive bio and talk about her debut book and how she'd like to be a guest. She will always have a special place in my heart that connecting books and readers through this platform matters. Amanda Mccracken: The way I saw it too is that it could be something that, you know, is influenced by movies you see or characters you read in books and so on and so forth. And so I certainly feel like I had this, or shadow that I was, I was trying, it's like almost like a piece of clothing you're trying on maybe on different people to see if it fit. So. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: So thank you so much for joining me today. Amanda Mccracken: Well, thank you for having me. didn't know that little ⁓ factoid about being the first one to reach out. So I'm excited to be here. Jennifer Jumba: Right. I think that's so well said because it's such a, I to say semi-abstract concept, but to be able to put it into words, makes perfect ⁓ Yeah, but you did a great job of describing things that we sometimes feel but don't have words for. I think that's where books are wonderful and people who write the books are even more special because they've taken the time to examine. Yeah, I'm so happy to have you. you just published your first book memoir, ⁓ Longing Becomes Your Lover. Can you give us a brief snapshot of this book? Amanda Mccracken: Yeah, it's really hard to describe. Sure. It is a book that I really started writing ⁓ to untangle myself from my own patterns. And ⁓ I'm not one that really likes to just write strict, you know, like diary memoiristic writing. I like to kind of like dig into the research. so that's Jennifer Jumba: and then put it into language sometimes I'm feeling, but I can't find the word for it. ⁓ And you've done with this book and the story is kind of framed around three people. You refer anchorman. we to talk a little about the, those three individuals. Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. ⁓ that's what the book became. And, ⁓ in a nutshell, the way I describe it to folks is that it is exploring like what happens when you find yourself more in love with the feeling of falling in love than actually being in a stable and healthy, albeit it might seem boring relationship. Sure. Yeah, that was a, was also a term that I came up with later. Originally that chapter where I described them was called the deserters, because I felt very deserted by them. And then once I, and very accusatory. ⁓ And, you I think part of the what I hoped when I wrote the book that it came across that I was not Jennifer Jumba: it is a terrific book. We talked a little bit earlier that I read it and it kind of gutted me but in the best of ways because you start talking about a subject and things that we don't often talk about. We live a world where so much of is on media that's carefully curated to look as if we're living our best life all the time. And I think we do have moments where we're living our best life, but that's not Right. Amanda Mccracken: you know, complaining about these people that I felt had dissed me, but it was more of an exploration of like, why, why did I feel so attached to them? You know, and why did I, why was I so crazy sometimes? And so these three individuals were people that either I had dated long-term or short-term or more, just kind of had like a situationship with like over a period of 15 years. Jennifer Jumba: all the time. And so taking a moment to kind of unpack, as you said, and kind of understand and untangle, I think helps a lot of those of us who read the book untangle as well. And so you introduced us to this concept of limerence. ⁓ you talk a little bit and explain a little bit more about that? Amanda Mccracken: at least particularly for the artist that either I had, I feel like in different ways, I often would compare other men that was dating to these, ⁓ one of three men to see how they measured up. and, or I go my life, basically beating myself up for screwing it up, screwing up the relationship Sure, well thank you for that huge compliment. And I learned about limerence in the process of actually writing this book. ⁓ and even after I did my Ted talk, I didn't even know when I went back and listened to the Ted talk and I was like, ⁓ my gosh, that's exactly what I was describing that I had been experiencing for years. So limerence is the psychology term to describe a state of mind where you are, ⁓ ruminating sometimes obsessively, not always about a love interest that you've put on a pedestal. ⁓ you often really don't know that much about them, which is why it's easy to I call them the my anchorman because ⁓ of the I came across about anchor memories. It was a psychologist, Jefferson Singer, I think is his name that described these anchor memories that are tied to significant times in your life ⁓ or goals even. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Amanda Mccracken: And when, when I looked back at these three guys, one was somebody I'd started dating just at the end of college. So it was a significant transition in my life. Another one I had dated when first moved to Boulder, I started the loosely when I first moved to Boulder. to put them on a pedestal and idealize them and see them without flaws. ⁓ And there has to be some, I don't know, there's some kind of math equation where there has to be uncertainty and hope. involved in order for the limerence to stay alive. So those are some of the key things. mean, a lot of people say, well, isn't that just a crush? And I described it as like a crush on steroids, you know, or just sometimes it's become intrusive. And it's the kind of crush where you're like, constantly checking in with whether for me, it was often my mom, or a best friend who wasn't sick of me, talking about that person, and just like, okay, what should I do next? Or will you listen to this And also he was related to me he was first guy I ever said, okay, I'm willing to have sex with you. And he said, no. So that was also a significant moment in my life. ⁓ And then the other guy, the artist, I started dating right around the time of my grandfather's death. And my grandfather is very important to me. text? Does this sound okay? What do think this text means? You know, should I email them or you know, and almost like a fear. There's definitely a fear of rejection too. So sometimes my biggest limerent crushes were ⁓ people I was, I was deeply fearful of saying the wrong thing, and ⁓ that they either wouldn't respond or they would reject me. Although I didn't feel like I went into as much depth as I wish I could have about my grandfather and why he was so important. So those three guys kind of like literally haunted my dreams and two them still do. So the I rarely dream about, but the artist and Mona Mie I ⁓ still have about. Jennifer Jumba: I was fascinated. You said it was, singer's work and talks about these memories that they're vivid, they're emotionally charged, they're repeatedly recalled and they're linked to other memories. And then they tend be focused on lasting goals or unresolved conflicts. And so I think, dreaming, haunting, whatever the right word is. if I'm ⁓ being honest, which you should never that phrase because then everybody thinks you're always dishonest. However, ⁓ I think it's feeling that we can all relate to. think we've all been in situations and it doesn't matter if it's, a work colleague, a supervisor, a dear friend, somebody that we've just met that we all will overthink and overanalyze. ⁓ And it just consumes a of time. Amanda Mccracken: Thank Jennifer Jumba: there certainly significant moments in our lives where things happen and the people that we're with when those things happen become imbued in that happening, ⁓ Instead the I get, I realized the more direct we can be because we know ourselves and we know kind of where our boundaries are and what our likes and dislikes are. But ⁓ I think what you throughout this book is such a relatable thing. And so I'm glad that you chose to write this book. Amanda Mccracken: Exactly. Yeah. And I think the unresolved piece is a really key word there. And that's why I think I still have dreams. Like I used to be like, ⁓ I'm still dreaming about the artist because he's the one. No, it was just my subconscious still trying to figure it out. And there was nothing to ever figure out. So Thank you. I've heard from a lot of people that they have experienced at least some point in their life. And I think that's pretty true. And there's a smaller group of people, smaller percentage of people who have kind of made this their like, MO, you know, that they just go through life with limerent. They're called limerent objects, which probably an awful name, right, to describe it as an object. But once you dig into what limerence is, it's more easily, Jennifer Jumba: And then I think that's the hard thing with life that we don't always have, like we see with, movies or even some great books that there's always a sense of resolution, some sense of, I know I'm going to say the word closure, which is so overused, but that sense of, of resolution, that allows us to move forward. But, know, we still are moving forward, but yet not always with that nice, neat resolution that need. And then that influences. Amanda Mccracken: Right. understandable why they described it as a limerent object. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ somebody told me this morning that, there's a difference between influencing and determining. So somebody can influence you, but don't determine who you are. And I thought that was just a really good way to express, and so kind of resonated when I was thinking back about your book, that these things have influenced you, but not determined you. I think it's fascinating that this book is so grounded in research, right? In the neuroscience that you did. And at the same time is delivered in a way that makes it incredibly accessible for people. not this, textbook, it's not a JAMA article where you're trying to figure out exactly what things mean. So I think that, I there have to be tons of people who've read already and are just like, ⁓ my gosh, where was this book? Amanda Mccracken: Hmm. Right. And I think that's a key thing to remember because yeah, we're all we, we, we may feel stuck, but we are, are still moving forward whether we want to or not. So, but yes, they're influencing. It's a, it's a lot lighter. It's a light, light, lighter way of moving through life. feel like if you feel like these people that we felt like we were in love with influences, but don't determine who we are and who we're going to be. Jennifer Jumba: five years ago, where was it 10 years ago? I think it's incredibly helpful. Exactly. I think it comes across as more of a growth mindset. Carol Dweck. Yeah, that is kind of what I thought of versus that fixed mindset. So I think hopefully people will take that away from this book as well. and reading in this book, you talk about growing up, you know, being that high achiever, ⁓ the oldest, not that I can that, pushed and incredibly driven and kind of the Amanda Mccracken: That's exactly the word I was thinking of, Jennifer Jumba: whatever you set your mind to, you accomplish. And you don't just do it, you do it at an elite level, which I think is really kind of interesting. And I'm wondering if people, what research, when you were looking says about people who are driven like that, are they more susceptible, if that's the right word, to limerence who... Amanda Mccracken: Well, think if you look, yeah, I mean, I don't think, I think some of the research has maybe even looked at like perfectionism, at least that's the connection that I made, that high achievers also tend to, I think, be more perfectionists. so limerence a safe place to hide because can just stay in that, in that thinking about that ideal relationship that may or may not ever come to be. so limerence is a safe place to hide because you can just stay in that thinking about that ideal relationship that may or may not ever come to be. instead of sinking ⁓ a relationship with somebody that may fail. instead of sinking ⁓ a relationship with somebody that may fail. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Cause that along with that limerence, reason it exists is you're the of rejection is so great that you kind of put them on a pedestal and you're, you're not kind of fully invested. one of the things I liked is you chose to structure your book in chapters and every starts with an epigraph. So I guess the question is, did the epigraph come first ⁓ or did the chapter come and then you found just the perfect epigraph to kind of Amanda Mccracken: Yeah. And then you can always, there's always the sense that you're trying to better yourself because you're never good enough for them because you, you're the one that put them on the pedestal to begin with. And then you can always, there's always the sense that you're trying to better yourself because you're never good enough for them because you, you're the one that put them on the pedestal to begin with. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: Right. It's such a complicate, I mean, it's so hard being a human being some days, right? I mean, there's all these competing things are still happening and they're happening at the same time. I mean, it's certainly not that, you you call customer service and, you know, promotions are not dealt with in the order in which they're received, right? But all coming at you and you do a great job of being able to articulate what that's like, what that feels like and how it showed up in your life. Kick off the chapter. Amanda Mccracken: More often, I wrote the chapter and then found the right epigraph for it. there were, there are a couple of those epigraphs that I've loved for a long time, those quotes that I've loved and thought maybe someday use this, you know? Like I'm one of those kids that had like a quote book when I was in high school and I still reference that quote book. ⁓ So. ⁓ Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: I have a quote book as an adult, so there are just lines in books that you just want to pull out and savor and reread them all over again. Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. For movies, yeah. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: And I want to like your friend who gave you the bracelet, the cuff bracelet. Yes, Amanda Mccracken: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. You, you would probably like her. She's very, very straightforward. ⁓ she, she gave me this bracelet says, yourself on it. And, ⁓ I mean, she probably gave that to me in my late mid thirties. When I talked to her about it, was like, she's like, I don't remember that. Okay. she's definitely that kind of person that would be like, your friend, the kind of friend most of us have that's like, you know, tells you when you're being bad shit crazy. So. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think we all need friends like that to kind of call us out and kind of say, hey, wait, like, take a breath, you know? ⁓ So I think that's incredibly important. And then it's just a simple reminder, but we get so caught up, I think, just in today's culture, that we worry so much about what other people think that we become like, we don't quite know who we are because we're so like, whether it's the people pleaser, Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: mentality or the, wanting to fit in versus belong, which, big fan Brene Brown talking about, fitting in is basically agreeing with everybody because you want to be liked versus Hey, look, I happen to like this thing and people being okay with it because that's who you are authentically. But so much of your book, I came across was it comes down to worth. Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: and knowing that you're worthy. Can you talk a little bit about how you evolved to that point? Amanda Mccracken: Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think from the outside, I look like a pretty confident person. And I actually feel like a pretty confident person. But I think there's definitely a difference between self-confidence and self-worth. And for some reason, I I explore this in the book of like, why did I feel like I was unworthy of the artist, for example, my longest lasting limer and object? Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Amanda Mccracken: just never felt like pretty enough for him or, perfect enough for him. And, so feel there was something that was appealing about chasing these guys that I saw as better than me. because it, it meant I basically living the same story that I, I wasn't worthy of the relationship I was seeking. And, you know, part of what I had to learn to do, which is really also hard to describe, is to receive love. I felt really good at giving it, felt very comfortable with giving it, but receiving it like repulsive. So that really affectionate, complimentary, and I was just, I was like, quickly I would run away. So. so in the book I try to unpack what, was all about looking back at, you know, patterns, even, even back to my birth and my having her stroke and looking at like how that might've played into it. And yeah, you can unpack your background ⁓ till, you the cows come home, but it doesn't help you move forward. So the work that I did with my therapist really helped me change my mindset that I was worthy of love. And so I think the key. phrase in the book that I often bring up in podcasts is that mantra that she had me write in my journal that I am ready for and worthy of a deeply intimate and loving relationship. So I was writing that before I met Dave and even after I met Dave, I back to my journal and found that I was still writing that. And he knew it too, I was, he started going to therapy with me actually maybe a month into our dating. So which I remember one of my friends was like, Like what's wrong with the relationship? And I was like, no, that's what's right. Like this guy is willing to sit with me in this desk, in a very uncomfortable situation and be there me, you know? ⁓ It's pretty cool. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. It's very cool. And I think it's actually, an Eastern medicine where you the to stay well with your well visits. And if you're sick, then you're not charged because they didn't do their quote unquote job to keep you healthy. So it makes me think a little bit about that. People were like, ⁓ I don't need to go to therapy and blah, blah, blah. But I think it's a very healthy thing to do. It's no different than anything else. physically that we have going on to be able to have those conversations and to find a guy that great that is willing to get to know you and what's important to you in that space. That's pretty, it's pretty awesome. So. Amanda Mccracken: Yeah. Yeah. And I would say I had met him, you know, even years before that, maybe even a year before I met him, I wouldn't have, I would totally been turned off by how available and transparent he was. But I had made enough mistakes, think, to, and done enough therapy be like, okay, this actually is good and safe and real love. Jennifer Jumba: that makes me happy that you brought your mantra to fruition, that it became a reality. There a few lines, as I have several pages of notes, that kind of resonated me, that you talk a little bit in the book about comparing it to anorexics, that they stay stuck so you belong. And so I think there's ⁓ sometimes, those of us who have narratives, will stay stuck in them because we're around other people who have that same narrative or understand that narrative. And so the fact that you took that gigantic leap essentially your brain, to, not just give love, but receive love, I think is, is incredible. Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Hmm Yeah, it was easy. And I think that's a really good you brought back up about like when I talked to my friend who dealt a lot with anorexia and she talked about how there was almost a whole around it. And it's a tricky thing to talk about. So I don't want to overstep. yeah, that you would almost, like you said, ⁓ stay stuck to in the group. And I think that sometimes even the people that we surround ourselves with that are still bemoaning, singlehood and shitty guys and whatever, know, bad dates. And then it's just like, that's just our story. You know, that's just who we are. That's just, well, we'll get together and like bitch some more, you know? And so I think able to separate yourself from that at some point realize that you are. you really are worthy of more. I don't want to say that I broke away from other friendships, but sometimes there can be a toxic mentality depending on what friends you're hanging out with. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Do you remember the moment at which you decided that it was time to kind of forward, even that was something that you didn't know, like you knew limerence? Was there like encapsulating moment where you're like, all right, enough, like, whether it's the straw that broke the camel's back or Amanda Mccracken: Yeah. You mean like move forward with him or to ⁓ like believing that I was worthy of more? Jennifer Jumba: Start believing that you were worthy of more. Amanda Mccracken: Well, I think I bring this one up in the book that there was that moment when I after I'd gone to see the I'd gone to Detroit in hopes that this doctor that I'd fallen in love with on an airplane would show up at I came to visit and. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Amanda Mccracken: So that, yeah, that's the background. So basically I bought these two tickets to this concert in Detroit and hopes, and I told this guy that, that I had met up with a couple of times that I would there and I had a ticket if he wanted to come. And, was like, I'll try to make it. I'll try to make it. And course he never up. I'd bought like a 24 hour flight. Like I was flying in, flying out. It was like, it was like the. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Amanda Mccracken: most batshit crazy thing I've done, but I felt like I had to do it to see if it would work, you know, and I was like on the precipice of turning into a 40 year old virgin and it was a week before. And I went back to my therapist after that and you know, had a very gut wrenching session with her and she's like, not surprised you did it. Like, you know, she knew I was she knew I knew I was thinking about it. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Amanda Mccracken: And she said, you know, I think you just had to hurt bad enough to move And I think everybody has to hit rock bottom, but for me, that was probably my rock bottom. I still made a few more mistakes after that, but that was like, like ⁓ the most like masochistic thing ever done. Jennifer Jumba: The thing that strikes me about you, I think you're just badass. think you're incredibly smart, incredibly kind, generous, all of things and brave. I mean, you've written essays and what this book started as an essay that you published. And of course, there's the whole, once you make it public, there's the, well, everybody can weigh in with an opinion. And so the fact that you first of all talk about it, show up and write about and publish it brave. The fact that you open yourself up to all of that feedback where everybody has an opinion, that's brave. The fact that you did a 24 hour flight ⁓ the doctor bought tickets, brave. At the same time, what's also brave is being able to step into that forward growth mindset of I am worthy of love a relationship. And so it just strikes me that both things are brave and one hurt and the other one is the unknown. And is that the fact that it's unknown or uncertain? Is that what keeps people from moving in that direction? Do you think? Amanda Mccracken: moving in the direction of Jennifer Jumba: like that they're worthy of love and done with the, not so great Amanda Mccracken: Mm. I mean, I think, well, I apply the uncertainty to, for me, ⁓ uncertainty, I don't know. That's a tricky one. I mean, uncertainty for me about these men that I thought were really mysterious and elusive was the attractive piece. and Dave was anything but uncertain. You know, I mean, of course he had been married, divorced. There were certain things sometimes when I still say, oh, did this happen? You know, is this what, you know, when he and I are fighting and I'd be like, oh, is this what, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back sort of thing. So there is the uncertainty of like, oh, what will happen to us? But I think the... Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Amanda Mccracken: I mean, I really think piece about people not going and moving in the direction of feeling worthy of love is that they just haven't practiced it for so long. And for so long, I had practiced that I wasn't, or I pursued relationships where I didn't feel worthy of it. So I feel like it's like literally training your brain. For me, how it like. Jennifer Jumba: it's what's comfortable. I human nature is to move towards what is pleasurable and away from what is not pleasurable. And that uncertainty is not always pleasant. Amanda Mccracken: Yeah. And I think as an artist too, I feel like a lot of writers, you are drawn to more of the uncertainty and the limerence and the mystery because it's a more of a muse. ⁓ And remember thinking, well, what am I, what am I going to write about if I'm not sad and heartbroken or chasing after someone anymore? Like I'll be sapped of any of my creativity. So there, there was that underlying fear too. I think there is a fear. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Amanda Mccracken: Because who would I be if I wasn't Amanda McCracken, single, sad, and pining after someone? Jennifer Jumba: but there's also the Amanda McCracken who ⁓ a great guy, has a very great relationship, a daughter. it's like the antithesis, but maybe you had to go through all of that to end up where you are now and appreciate that much more as of what happened prior to. ⁓ Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Yeah, mean, totally. I feel like when I'm like, what, is this book going? Or who is anybody going to read this book? Or, know, ⁓ do people think of it? I just try to remember, you that I wouldn't be where I'm at if I hadn't started writing it. Like, I wouldn't have, I feel like I wrote myself into the happy ending that I had been seeking. So that's is in and of itself worth it. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. And I know we were talking a little bit before about who's going to read this book. know, are people going to look at it? The title, the cover is gorgeous. Not that we ever judge books by the cover, but the cover is gorgeous. When Longing Becomes Your Lover is just an intriguing title. And expressed like, are people going to put it away? Like they're not ready for this. I think even if you aren't somebody who has experienced limerence, I think so many great takeaway lessons. ⁓ here. there are things that resonate with us just being a human being about, what do we do? How do we, if we're high achievers and things are not achieving as high as we like to, how do we reconcile that? I think that's always kind of a thing. You're an incredible runner, still run today. ⁓ But that were taken away, how would you Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: would you process, are you without running? Because that's so much a part of who you are. And so limerence. Amanda Mccracken: Yeah, originally I had a chapter titled identity because I feel like that is definitely a thread throughout this whole thing. Jennifer Jumba: which is probably why it resonated as much as it did with me and I know with other readers as well. ⁓ And like beautifully phrased sentences that you talk about. And I think this is one of my favorite sentences you talk about love being depicted as this winged Cupid and death being depicted as the grim reaper and then trying to figure out what would waiting be depicted as. ⁓ I just think Amanda Mccracken: Mm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: that just, ⁓ thought about it like the rest of the book as I'm reading. I'm I wonder what it would look like. Amanda Mccracken: And I wrote that line, I very remember that line, because I wrote that line like 10 years ago. ⁓ something that I was writing, you know, there's so many pieces of book that I had written, which I think is good, because well, it's good to have the perspective that I do now. But also I had so many that I'd been working on as I was trying to grapple with. Jennifer Jumba: Wow. Amanda Mccracken: virginity and unrequited love and attachment things like that. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, there's another great line. I felt a sense of panic, like knowing something you loved was beginning to unravel and you wouldn't be able to repair it because someone had run away with the string. Amanda Mccracken: Hmm, Soldier. Jennifer Jumba: I mean, it's one of those things that just kind of hits. and then there's another example that you talk about in terms of baggage. we, we all have lived experiences. We've lived lives before we've met other people. And so people talk, ⁓ well, they have baggage. You my thing is, is it something that fits in the overhead compartment or underneath the seat in front of you versus has to be checked. However, you about as baggage versus resilience. ⁓ Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Right. Mmm. Jennifer Jumba: And I just thought, a great way to look at something. those neural pathways that you rebuilt with the that you embraced and then living that out. I you said it earlier, it's not easy. I think a lot of things, if they were easy, more people would do them. But if you're willing to do the hard work, the tough work, then you end up like Amanda McCracken. you know, with, you know. Amanda Mccracken: Well, thanks. think, yeah, I think about, yeah, I mean, I think about sometimes like Dave is very much an accommodator. And so I remember, know, we've sometimes we still go to therapy because I think it's healthy. And we've talked about with the therapists, you we have these characteristics that make us who we are, but they, you know, they, they allow us to be a certain way that Jennifer Jumba: agreed. Amanda Mccracken: therapists would be like, well, yes, that might drive you crazy, but he wouldn't be doing this for you if you, if he wasn't also that kind of person, you know? So I feel like it's sometimes like with the ADD, like it can, ⁓ can be the, it can be a real creative source and can just, you know, me crazy and distract me from what I need to be getting done. sometimes. you know, the pros and the cons. I think I described talked about, I would feel like I talked about the baggage in terms like as in description with the going to the animal shelter and how look at the animals, whether or not you know, other they've got all this past history not interested in them. You know, I want a young puppy that I can mold, ⁓ forget that we all of our own baggage ourselves. Jennifer Jumba: Right. I would also say that could probably apply to any of the, people that we meet or online dating sites, right. That very quick to dismiss things without that person's story that person's approach to it. it's a fantastic book. hope more people read it, ⁓ and learn it and take away from it that. Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: It possible to ⁓ your narrative in a way that is healthy and allows you to have the things that you deserve to have, Amanda Mccracken: Yeah, it definitely takes work, but it's totally, it's definitely possible. Jennifer Jumba: It's no different than you running. mean, you didn't just pick up and start running one day the, know, the hills and the mountains and all of that. I mean, you worked up to that. That's work training, right? So can training also apply to our brain and our heart at the same time? and know that eventually you will okay if you do the work. You know, Amanda Mccracken: Yeah. And the work for me was, was really somatic. Some of the work that I did really was feeling in. And that's something I talk about in the book. And I just have an essay coming out in runner's world about like how I got really good at dissociating during running, like tuning out from my body. And then I started applying that in physical intimacy and that was just a good direction go. so in the somatic therapy and counseling, we really on. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Amanda Mccracken: feeling into things actually felt in my body. And was really, really, really, really difficult and uncomfortable work, but important. Jennifer Jumba: Important, right, to do because you you've you've accomplished great things and will continue to do and to live this this great life that you've I want to say longed for I'm thinking when longing becomes your lover should I use that word in this but ⁓ Amanda Mccracken: Yeah, I mean, I still let longing, it's, you know, still let longing get best of me sometimes. So ⁓ I like I'll always be a longer. I just have to kind of like keep it in perspective. So doesn't like eat me alive, but feeds the creative side of me, but doesn't destroy, keep me from what I right here in front of me. Jennifer Jumba: think that's a great piece that you just said that because you've gone through that tough work doesn't mean that it's gone and gone forever. But you are knowing how to live with it and how to interrupt it sooner so that it doesn't. have as big of an impact. And I think that's the thing people, think today want this quick fix that, either they want something to be easy or, once you the tough work, then boom, gone and you don't ever have to think about it again. But it's always going to be kind of part of who you are. It's just not as big a part of who you are. ⁓ You mentioned earlier that you didn't have a lot of time to talk about your grandfather and how important he was to you in this book. Amanda Mccracken: bright. Jennifer Jumba: Do you want to spend a couple of minutes talking about them now? Amanda Mccracken: Oh sure, as long as I don't cry. Yeah, he actually I have a picture right here. Of course the listeners can't see, but that was him with me when I was little. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, how sweet. Amanda Mccracken: But he was just, yeah, he was just kind of like that larger than life person that was really, was a dentist, but he was also, you know, really, I think he would have wished to have been an artist or a writer, but followed in his brother's and father's footsteps. And yeah, just, he was just he was probably a bit a perfectionist himself. I see a lot of myself in him. And, We went fishing a lot together. That's what I remember a lot of. he kept my, have like, I'm looking at a folder right now. This is something about like Amanda's writing. Like he kept my writing, made me feel like it was worth something, you know? there are certain people I think in our lives that do that for us. it, you know, like after he's gone, find that folder of my writing and he's like, he thought that was worth something, you know? And that really matters to me, I think so. It's hard to describe. I haven't cried about him for a long time, but... Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: I certainly didn't mean to make you cry, but I wanted an opportunity for you to capture just how special he was. Amanda Mccracken: ⁓ it's okay. Yeah, I don't think I can quite capture but my tears kind of capture that. So you I guess I think I might have this in the book that he the most vivid I have of him was at a college cross country race and he was down on one knee like screaming for me when it probably took him 10 minutes to get up from that knee. So he was very passionate. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Those are the people. those are the people we need in our lives. Well, yeah, I'm glad you had him and I'm glad you're that for others as well. So, mm hmm. No, heck no. ⁓ Amanda Mccracken: Yeah. Yes. Well, thank you. A good balance, right? We don't want everybody to be a perfectionist in their life. Otherwise, you know, yeah. Jennifer Jumba: look what happens. I would talk you the rest of the day. But this is stories and the final five questions. mantras are helpful to interrupt Do have a new mantra now or do you still use the same one? Amanda Mccracken: yeah, the one I've been writing in people's books actually is nurture the longing that nurtures you. So did I write that in your book? Okay, good. Jennifer Jumba: Yes, I'm looking at it right now. Nurture the longing that nurtures you. Amanda Mccracken: Yeah, I think that's something you can move forward with whether you know it doesn't only apply to romantic right? Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ I told when I started this podcast, I'd give myself a year to see what And somebody said to does it bring you joy? It does ⁓ a ton of it. So will continue to do it for that reason. the fact that I get to to amazing people who are changing the world little bits, pages at a time. Next question, what's the most Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: unusual thing you've experienced on book tour since you published. Amanda Mccracken: wish I could say I've like, I've had a ton of experiences. mean, probably, Well, experience of fearing that the anchorman's mom is gonna show up or that artist is actually gonna show up in Chicago. So I've actually had the fears of those sorts of things happening and they didn't come to fruition. maybe one of the most interesting was on actually the day that it was launched, had a, event here in Boulder at a cafe and this guy that I had dated and he was a nice guy. He was one of those that I had eventually was like, ⁓ no, way too, too, too nice and too transparent and into me. So see you later. He showed up his ex-wife also showed up and they didn't know that they are both showing up. And they, had married her after we had dated ⁓ more recently they got divorced. And so they didn't know they're both showing up to my event. And I knew, I don't know her that well, it was like, I was kind of, that was kind of cool. So that they both felt like. Jennifer Jumba: Go on. Okay. That's very cool. Amanda Mccracken: Either either a wanting to support me or felt like the work that was relevant to them. Jennifer Jumba: relevant to anybody who reads this book. We will all. Amanda Mccracken: ⁓ and that my psychic, that same event, my psychic and my therapist showed up to that talk. Jennifer Jumba: how cool. I'm intrigued by the psychic. If could have a superpower, what would it be? Amanda Mccracken: funny, my daughter just this morning before she left said that my secret is that I'm a, what she say? My superhero secret is that my superhero secret power is that I'm a superhero. I think that's what she said. ⁓ So if I had power, I would just. Jennifer Jumba: How sweet. Amanda Mccracken: let go of things that i mean this is more of a selfish thing right it's a it's not i guess it's not like that i would like save all of humanity from poverty but i guess personally i would like be able to let go of anything that really bothered me that's ⁓ that's sounds so lame i don't know i'll have to come back ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Ugh. No, it doesn't, because I wish I had that superpower. You could bestow that upon me. Amanda Mccracken: But then I would have never written this book. I would have just been like, whatever. So I guess that can serve you in different ways. So probably I'd just pick something generic like be able to fly. It'd be really cool to be able to fly. Jennifer Jumba: That'd be pretty great. I just want to be able to travel like, you know, I dream of Deanie, just kind of put your hands together and wink and there you go. Wouldn't that be awesome? movie can you recite almost every line to? Amanda Mccracken: ⁓ yeah, that would be awesome. when Harry met Sally or Top Gun. Jennifer Jumba: Good choices. Feel the need for speed. What song would always be on your road trip playlist? Amanda Mccracken: Mm-hmm. ⁓ that's a good one. Well, the one that's it. husband, daughter and I took a road trip in this van and that own it. We borrowed it so I could and I wrote a story about it, but in Colorado and the one song that kind of became our theme road trip song was George Ezra's Green Grass, Blue Blue Sky. You better throw a party on the day that I die. So probably that one. But personally, I would definitely have to have good vibrations by the Beach Boys. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. There you go. That's awesome. a huge thank you to those of you listening and an even bigger thank you to Amanda McCracken for writing such a powerful book, When Longing Becomes Your Lover. Your courage and vulnerability makes you a superhero in my book. If you find yourself intrigued and want to learn more, because we could not capture all of the insights and lessons in this conversation, go out and buy Amanda's book, When Longing Becomes Your Lover. hopefully at an indie bookstore. At the end of the day, I believe stories can not only connect us, but they can also heal us. find out who else is going to be a guest, go to storiedaccount.com. This is Storied Account with Jen Jamba. Amanda Mccracken: Thank you for having me.