Latest / Social In Security / Etiquette Has a Reputation Problem | Heather Wiese & Mariah Humbert

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Etiquette Has a Reputation Problem | Heather Wiese & Mariah Humbert · Social In Security

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There is an invisible language underneath every interaction you
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have. I've spent my career learning to
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read it. I'm Heather Wiese and this is
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social insecurity, where we get into modern etiquette, luxury
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and the social intelligence that decides how you are received.
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The quiet art of the first impression and the confidence to
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carry yourself anywhere. The rules are real and they are
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also learnable. Consider this your invitation.
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I am so excited to talk to an etiquette expert today.
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As you all know, I'm frequently writing or speaking about
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etiquette. So today for a turn, I get to
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talk to an expert and you get behind the scenes, listen and
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watch for what's exactly going on in culture today.
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Etiquette questions often come quietly, right?
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Which fork do I use? How do I write?
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How should I say this? When should I send this?
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But underneath every question is a much bigger one.
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Am I doing this right? What will they think of me
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today? My guest has built her career
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around helping people answer that question with confidence.
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After leaving the corporate fashion world in 2021, Mariah
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Humbert began teaching modern etiquette and now works with
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clients across high jewelry, real estate, finance and
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hospitality. She has written two books on
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wedding etiquette and when the Today Show or Forbes needs an
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expert, Mariah is one of the people that they call.
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One thing I love that Mariah says is that etiquette is not
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really about memorizing rules. It is about emotional
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intelligence, social awareness, and knowing how to make yourself
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and the people around you feel at ease.
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So yes, we may talk about forks, but this conversation is really
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about building your confidence and connection and walking into
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any room feeling a little more secure.
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Welcome, Mariah. Hi, Heather.
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I am so excited to get to talk to you.
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I didn't know some of the things that I was reading.
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So one of the things that you left the corporate fashion world
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in 2021, which I love because I came from that as well.
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And so I'd be serious. Yeah, I did.
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I did. I was on the art direction side
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of it. So it was the advertising.
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That makes sense. Yeah, exactly.
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So what? What was the catalyst?
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Why did you decide to jump? I was miserable with my job and
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I was so early in my career and it was COVID times and I had
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moved back in with my parents. And I said I am on a corporate
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salary and I think I have one chance in my life to try and
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start my own business with the money I have saved and the kind
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of lack of responsibility I had at the time being 2324 years
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old. And, and so I said, let me just
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give this a try and see where it goes.
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And if it doesn't go where I want it to go, I have the time
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and resources to pivot and you know, find another job in
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fashion or switch careers completely.
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But you know, I couldn't give what I was starting to create
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100% at the time. I had, you know, started my
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smaller online business at the time and I was teaching courses
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virtually in the evenings or on the weekends.
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But I thought I I'll never know what this can be if I don't try
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and give it 100%. So let's see how it goes.
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Definitely gave my family a little bit of a scare of being
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such a type A Elda's daughter, you know, follow the right path.
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This was a a big surprise for everyone.
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I love that you did it. I absolutely love that you did
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it. I relate to all of those
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qualities right there. And those are all same for me.
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It's a scary jump. So congratulations.
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I'm really and he's just thrilling to see A the topic
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being so popular and B, just you doing so well, talking about it
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and people really relating to you, I think is part of you know
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what your what your secret sauce.
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So I want to talk about modern etiquette.
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I can't wait to hear what you have to say about it.
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And I love that you come from it so authentically.
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You know, you've studied this, you've forged a path that takes
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a lot of research. I don't I think people look at
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an etiquette expert and they go, Oh, well, you just think you
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know some rules and don't realize the amount of research
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that goes into getting this correct, right.
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It's. So true.
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I think people think it's a, it's a made-up bag and I just
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decided to to call myself an expert.
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But in the same way I went to school to get a fashion degree,
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you know, I graduated from multiple programs and pretty
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rigid, strict protocol programs with lots of information on
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etiquette around the world, from dining, from business.
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And obviously I've interpreted it in my own way and I teach it
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in my own way, but I it's a lot of information that in addition
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to the self study that I've done just out of my own interests.
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One of the things that I encountered first, and I'm
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curious how you approach this etiquette, has a reputation
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problem, right? I mean, yes, absolutely.
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The way that I came about it just really quickly is I left
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fashion. I started this company, Bell and
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Vito, and we do wedding invitations.
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And about two years in, I mean, when I started, I was doing, you
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know, invitations for friends and family.
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And if I got paid, it was like, Oh, yeah, yeah.
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About two years in, someone asked me.
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And, you know, we are putting all this effort in design and
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letting and kerning and scripts and finding the right font and
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proportions and then sourcing the right materials.
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All of this is going into design and production.
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And they said, how am I supposed to say this?
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And it became apparent to me through a couple of meetings
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that, oh, the messaging is just as important, you know?
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And so I stumbled into it and then forged that path that way
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with the research route and the training and all that.
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But what I realized after having someone evaluate my business
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about 10 years in, they said people are coming to your
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website more for etiquette than they are for anything else that
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you're doing. Interesting.
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Like, that's interesting. So then it was a deep dive.
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And this is where I get to the question.
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We didn't want to name etiquette anything because it had such a
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negative connotation and it felt unrelatable and it felt like you
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were exclusive. What have you found with that
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and how have you navigated that? I'm still navigating you,
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Heather. Every day I met with, you know,
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people who tilt their heads a little bit when I tell them what
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I do. I hope that when people meet me,
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they're met with someone who was warm and accepting and kind and,
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you know, kind of the opposite of everyone's preconceived
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notions of what etiquette is about.
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I always say, you know, people think about etiquette as rules
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to put you in a box or a, a means to have everyone do the
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same thing in order to look a certain way or act a certain way
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or be viewed a certain way. And I think it's actually the
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opposite. I think it's so individualized.
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It's so situational. It's all about making people
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feel comfortable in the moment or making the best decision in
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the moment. And so I have to work really
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hard on it every day to to tell people, you know, I'm a regular
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person and I eat dinner on my couch with TV tray and a lot of
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the times. And and so while I've been
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trained in a lot of formal aspects of etiquette and I could
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set a crazy table for someone, you know, visiting from overseas
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and all of those things, my find, you know, my passionate
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etiquette lays so much more. And in helping people to feel
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confident in social situations so that they can bring forward
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what they really have to offer to the world.
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And I've kind of come up with the phrase, you know, tools, not
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rules, because I think encompasses really what I
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believe in that it's yes, there are these books full of rules to
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tell you what to do, but it but if you look at them as tools to
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help you with your social confidence in your personal life
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and your work life with with weddings.
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I love that. Tools not rules.
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OK, I hadn't heard that. And I think it's brilliant.
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It's absolutely brilliant. You have said you you really
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define this as emotional intelligence and social
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awareness. Do you remember how old you were
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or like a moment that that clicked and you went, oh, like
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this makes a huge difference. Did you have a moment that you
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remember? I definitely have been an old
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soul for my whole life. I, I can remember from my
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earliest memories never wanting to sit at the kids table.
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I always wanted to sit at the adults table because I wanted to
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be involved in the conversation and I thought connection and
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conversation with people were so important.
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And I, I'm very, very sensitive and interaction between people
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has always been kind of a, a strength and a passion and
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interest of mine. But I think when I was probably
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about 12 or 13 years old, I had enrolled myself, not, not my
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parents, it was all me. I enrolled myself in like a
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service based beauty pageant. So a lot of it was, you know,
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volunteer work that you had to do a ton of interviewing about,
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you know, you and the things that you were involved in.
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And so, yes, you pranced around, you know, a stage of address for
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some of it, but a lot of it was service based too.
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And I learned then the importance of how to show up,
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how to present yourself and how to speak about yourself.
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And those skills that I learned at such a young age were things
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that are my skills that I am using today that I will use 2030
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years from now. And plus, but I, I'm so
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fortunate that I, they came naturally to me, of course, but
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I had something that gave me the chance to work on them also at
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such a young age and, and understand the importance of
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that when I was in middle school.
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When you find something that you really like, like a view that
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you really love, like if you, if you opened your window and there
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was a, you know, a huge Vista and like no one had ever seen
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this before and you had a moment, you want to show
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everybody that, right? I mean, that was when I first
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had this moment of Oh my gosh, the etiquette is not about
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everything that I thought it was about.
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Etiquette is about giving. I saw it in somebody else giving
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that person confidence. And I'm like, I want to give
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this to everybody. And that's really what I think I
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want people to take away from a conversation between you and me
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or or any other thing, you know, contacting you and
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understanding. It's not etiquette school that
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you learn at cotillion. It's not necessarily like people
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go, I already know this or that. I know to write a think, you
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know, I just never do it or I know to I know which fork to
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use. I know to work from the outside
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in, but there's so much more that elevates people if they
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will sit and invest a little bit of time and learning just like
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you would a language or anything else.
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It's so true and I, I relate to that so much.
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And it's also the evolution of our society and how rapidly it's
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changing now. I'm sure it's always felt like
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it's changed rapidly, but now with, you know, technology and
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so many things and you know, us all going through a global
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pandemic together. And there's so many aspects of
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it now that didn't exist in the etiquette books I have from the
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40's, the 50's, the 60s, you know, obvious things have
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changed. But there's also a lot of
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situations where, you know, we need leaders to look towards for
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kind of what what to do to keep our society respectful and civil
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and kind. And that's what I hope to be,
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especially for younger generations, being someone on
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the younger side that took a topic that a lot of people look
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at as antiquated or, or what have you.
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And you know, I was 24 when I started, so I was, I was really
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young. I love it.
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I love it. More power to you and keep
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going. So your clients range from high
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jewelry finance, you've got technology, you've got
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education. Like these are these are very
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separate things. So talk to me about a common
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thread. Is there a pervasive question
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that you kind of get asked no matter who the environment or
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client is? In terms of the business
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etiquette workshops that I do for a lot of organizations and
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companies and brands, the common thread is that, you know, we
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have a new group of hires. We have interns, we have junior
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associates. And it seems like they haven't,
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you know, received the same type of training that our older
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associates have potentially, you know, going through college
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during a pandemic. Their social skills are lacking.
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We need you to come in. And what happens 8 out of 10
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times is that a more senior associate will sit through it
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and say, oh, wait, I think this would actually benefit everybody
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in the company. Just who am I?
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And tells them I'll get advocating, you know, US younger
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generation, we're we're not the whole issue, right?
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Everybody, everybody could benefit from it.
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But there's definitely the request for more social
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confidence, more conversation skills, better representation of
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the company when you know different associates or
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employees are entertaining clients or need to provide a
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client experience, things like that.
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But it it normally starts with the junior associates and then
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we expand from there. It's amazing.
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I mean, I'm, you know, hit 50. So it, when I, it's amazing to
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me where people my age, I'll sit with a group of women and it's
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usually like, Oh, I need you to train my daughter right.
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And so or my son And and then, you know, few questions and
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they're like, oh, maybe I need this too.
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Yes. And, and especially with the way
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that it's changing and how a lot of etiquette professionals are
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approaching it nowadays, like you said before, it's very
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different than any kind of charm school or cotillion training
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that some people may have went through when they were younger.
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And I grew up in the Northeast. We didn't even have Italian.
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Right. It's so different now.
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Like I think it's fascinating and I want to know what your
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thought on this. Nothing has changed and
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everything has changed and I don't know even how to explain
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that. Like, can you know what I'm
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saying? Can you explain it?
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I do. And that's why so much of what
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you know, I can sit here and and teach you all the the things
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that I've, you know, acquired of got to show up in a room and
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body language and all these different etiquette skills.
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But I always say at the end of the day, if you can make
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someone's day better in a small interaction when you're ordering
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your coffee, when the conductor on the train is coming to punch
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your ticket on the way to work. Like those micro moments are
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where we make the world a better place for other people.
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And so everything's changing right with now we have to
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navigate social media etiquette and our phones and this and
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that. But it's also nothing's changed
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because we are humans and we create connections with with
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other humans so that that part of it's never going to change.
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And that sense of community and kindness and civility, it's
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something that we we need and the crave still.
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Absolutely. Is there anything that comes to
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mind that you are pretty sure needs to change?
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Is there a rule that is an old rule that you're like, yeah,
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that's gone? An old rule that needs to
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change. I mean, I think maybe just
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because of the time of the date that it is like no white after
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Labor Day, OK. OK, I'm down with.
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Yeah, so maybe as a silly. Light one that I can think of
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off the top of my head. I think that would be 1 where I
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would say, and that's kind of where I kind of come from the
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the tools not rules place is, you know, the rules are there as
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a guide, but sometimes in different situations, you have
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to bend the rules if it's the best, best approach for that
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situation. But I think in terms of like a
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hard and fast rule, no white after Labor Day.
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I think winter whites are beautiful.
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Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
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And to your point, tools, not rules.
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It's so much more than just the color, like when we say it.
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And that's a perfect example that applies to almost every,
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every etiquette rule, right. Like it's so much more than just
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the example or the metaphor or the fork or that, you know, it's
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just so much more than the object that people tend to
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obsess over so that they can get the rule right.
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Absolutely and and a lot of you know, the, the gender rules that
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were in place in business in the past about who could initiate A
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handshake first or all of this stuff.
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It it's a level playing field now in, in the work world.
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And so whatever gender you identify as, if you want to
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extend a handshake to greet somebody, what used to be like
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you had to wait for the woman to extend her hand.
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Like all of those things don't don't really apply anymore.
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I always say if, if you lead more traditional and you value
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those things, still every situation requires intention and
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thought. And that's why I don't believe
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that every rule applies to every situation.
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I've had, you know, really, really, really high profile
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people in the finance industry who say, you know, I work on a
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team with a gentleman who's 75 that was raised in the South.
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He would never let a a female open the door for him.
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So again, those are one of those things where I believe in the
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work world, you know, gender is equal now, but I think there are
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also nuances to people who have different ways of showing people
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respect. And I don't think that that's
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something that we should look down on either.
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Absolutely. I think that's a really good
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point. The one etiquette rule that I
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can say will fluster me anytime is introductions.
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Introductions to mess with my brain?
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Is it to me left and right? If I'm giving you directions and
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I say left half the time I meant right and introductions work
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that same way. Who Who to introduce to you?
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Do you have a trick that will help my brain for introduction?
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It's not as I wish it was as cut and dry as the, you know, the
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the BMW method or whatever used for your head of water and
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things like that. But the way that I, I look at it
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is I think the introduced to you and introduced you to is where
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everybody, it gets confused because you're like, who are you
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presenting? Who and what moment?
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And it and especially what happens so quickly and it's more
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casual. So my kind of thought process
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and it sounds way more formal and fancy that it actually is.
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You just have to think of it this way.
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I want to present someone to the person who I showed the most
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respect to you in that moment. And so I say their name 1st.
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And so I would say Heather, I'd love for you to meet so and so
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or Heather, I'd love to introduce so and so.
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So I'm presenting that person to you because I want to show you
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the most respect in that moment because you're either my guest
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of honor or you know, a new business relationship and I'm
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building or you're a client of mine or whatever warrants that
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kind of more respect in the moment.
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But I think of it that way. And I always tell people, drop
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the introduce to you, introduce you 2 because you don't have
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that much time to think of it. When you're in the moment,
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though, my thought is whose name do I want to say first?
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Who's who's eye contact am I giving?
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Am I giving first right? Who's I am I looking to first?
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Who do I want to show the most respect to in that situation,
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socially or professionally? That's.
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Great. I'm going to take that.
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I'm going to use that. I have not been trained that way
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before and I think that's brilliant.
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Is there anything that trips you up?
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Do you have one that you're like every time?
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That's a really good question. I had to think about that.
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I mean, I've probably made every mistake in the book.
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So I'm not the only reason why I can't think of something is not
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because I'm like, Oh no, all the rules are good.
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I'm, I'm great with everything. I do sometimes struggle with
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remembering people's names and this is something I try and
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help, you know, coach people on. But I, I am a very visual
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learner by nature in general. And so I think that's why
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people's faces and their body language I'm so receptive to,
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but names I have to work really, really, really hard with.
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I, I have to repeat the back to the person.
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My husband's amazing at this because he will kind of step to
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the side. He has a whole note of, you
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know, where he met the person, what they talked about.
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So I've been trying to get better with that, but I think
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that's because I'm so visual and so focused on people's body
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language. That's a fashion lover.
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I'm looking at what they're wearing and things would happen,
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yes. I get that.
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I understand that too. OK, I want to jump into weddings
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with you. You wrote two books, right?
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On wedding etiquette. And for every couple, is there a
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question that you wish they would ask or think to ask or
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make sure they know at the outset?
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Because it as, as someone who's consulting, when someone's
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paying you to consult, it's different.
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But when you're just walking in the room and you're working with
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an event planner or for me, I'm working, you know, with a, with
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the couple or something, you can't necessarily offer
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information. So you want them to know to ask,
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right? What is there something that you
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kind of you would suggest everyone going into that
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situation needs to ask or make sure they know, I think.
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It's comes down to the conversation, the game plan that
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the couple has with each other beforehand.
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I think so many of the wedding etiquette conundrums that I am
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brought to to or that people bring to me are related to
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family dynamics and drama within in the family.
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And so of course they're going to come with questions on, you
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know, what their processional order should be like and what
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the wording of the invitation will be and how they should do
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this. With the bridal party.
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There are of course, very kind of structure logistic questions
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that I can answer, but the nuances come from the family
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dynamics and the drama. And a lot of that can be, I'm
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not saying avoided, but a lot of that can can be kind of handled
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a little bit better if there's a game plan put into place in the
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beginning of how how they're going to approach challenges,
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how they're going to approach awkward conversations about
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money or cutting a guest list or things like that.
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And so many of the so much of the drama that comes to me is
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full, you know, did did, did you have a time and place to speak
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about this? Is it a text that you sent and
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it got, you know, miscommunicated?
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And so I wish that before couples even get into the nitty
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gritty of choosing invitation wording, that they have a really
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good game plan of how they're going to communicate together.
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And then what their game plan is are those inevitable tricky high
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emotion conversations and simulations that may arise.
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Right, exactly. I mean, that was my next
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question is, you know, the wedding obviously is where money
21:35
and family and feelings and the expectations that no one even
21:40
knew you had all the assumptions, they just collide
21:42
and they feel like they collide in public.
21:44
So people do panic, right? So one piece of advice when you
21:48
have a panicking parent or bride or you know, couple when they're
21:52
in panic. So we we're past the we should
21:54
have and we're in panic mode. What's your piece of advice?
21:58
I think a lot of people when it comes to weddings and emotions
22:02
being so high, a lot of times they, they need to feel heard
22:05
and validated. And so our first instinct, if
22:09
we're the couple or the, the bride's parents or the group,
22:12
whoever it is, it's easy to get defensive, right?
22:15
And I, I'm a firm believer in the fact that a couple should
22:19
have the wedding of their dreams, right?
22:21
And even if they have family members or loved ones
22:23
contributing financially, I think there's still a balance of
22:26
power over decisions that can happen, right?
22:28
There's a giant compromise that needs to go on.
22:31
But I think when there's like a moment of panic, sometimes all
22:35
people need to hear is I, I hear you.
22:38
I understand where you're coming from.
22:40
I totally can see why you feel that way about that.
22:44
And then keeping the, the common goal really at the forefront,
22:47
you know, this is about our, our love and celebrating our family.
22:51
And so This is why I think this is the best option for that
22:54
goal. But people, people want to feel
22:57
hurt and, and validated. And that doesn't make the high
23:00
emotions and the panic, right. I'm thinking about all the crazy
23:04
stories that I've heard. But I think if you can give
23:08
validation before you jump into your opinion, it may help ease
23:12
the high emotions, right? Exactly.
23:15
I mean, it's a, it's a big deal, right?
23:17
I mean, like it's a big deal. It's a big deal.
23:18
And it gets so tricky when, you know, mom, dad, grandma,
23:23
somebody's, you know, paying for the whole wedding, half the
23:25
weddings, some of the wedding. And so that makes them, you
23:28
know, feel entitled to have power over decisions.
23:31
And, you know, and that's why I call it the balance of power
23:33
over decisions, right? Somebody is graciously gifting
23:36
you money towards your wedding. They need to be part of a lot of
23:40
the conversations. But there's a way to do that
23:42
without completely compromising the vision that you have as a
23:45
couple. And I like comes down to as a
23:48
face to face conversation, yes. And having that on the front
23:51
end, who is hosting? Who's really making them
23:54
decisions? Do we have guests of honor?
23:56
Do we have hosts? The the decisions are a
23:58
reflection of who in this scenario?
24:00
Because I think that's a lot of where the confusion comes from,
24:03
yes. And a lot of time it's because
24:04
it's never really been communicated and established.
24:07
And so I tell people to treat this like a business, right?
24:10
You need to have meetings with your family, the agendas of what
24:13
needs to be discussed. Because I, I'm a firm believer.
24:16
And this is with anything, not just weddings.
24:18
The more you can communicate and delegate and have everybody put
24:21
things on the table up front, the the less you're dealing with
24:24
as time goes on when you really want to put your energy towards
24:29
choosing the details right. Exactly.
24:31
And remember to have fun because there are not as many eyes on
24:35
you judging you as you think there are ever, whether it's a
24:37
wedding or any social situation and everything faux pas,
24:43
mistake, whatever, everything is recoverable.
24:46
This Susan's social situation, we used to say we had a thing
24:50
that you know, we would have at Bell and Vito for the past 20
24:53
years. We were like, we are not curing
24:54
cancer. We are not saving babies.
24:55
Like this is what it is and it's important and it's a big deal,
25:00
but it's it is what it is, right?
25:02
So that's something that I think it helps me calm my nerves.
25:06
Perspective. It's just, you know, put things
25:08
in perspective, I say. The same thing when I feel, you
25:11
know, I'm like, OK, I'm not a brain surgeon.
25:13
I'm not saving anybody. He's life or death.
25:15
I get out of the value, but I'm not.
25:16
It's not a life or death situation.
25:20
If you know me, you know that I believe details are the point.
25:24
It's why I founded Bell and Vito.
25:26
For more than 20 years, we have designed invitations that
25:30
introduce life's most significant occasions, pieces
25:34
that are held and kept and framed.
25:37
The quiet art of making an impression long before anyone
25:40
enters the room. Today, that same devotion to
25:43
design extends beyond the invitation into a collection of
25:46
pieces created to bring beauty and intention to the way we
25:50
gather, give, and live. discovertheworldofbellandvito@bellandvito.com.
25:57
Live beautifully. The.
26:00
Company that I have, we deal with a lot of writing,
26:04
obviously. Do you find people still
26:08
appreciate written thank you notes?
26:10
Do you find that they're still appreciating those things?
26:13
Would they rather have the immediacy of a text?
26:16
Where are we today in 2026? This is an evolution.
26:19
So where do you feel that we are?
26:21
I think. Handwritten thank you notes are
26:22
still so, so important because of the thought and the intention
26:26
and the time that you put into it.
26:28
It communicate something in itself.
26:31
I do think that situationally it, it can change in a sense of,
26:35
OK, so if you, if we're talking weddings and it's for a shower
26:38
gift or a wedding gift, a handwritten note for me is non
26:41
negotiable, right? Somebody spent money on a gift,
26:44
they attended your wedding, they're celebrating.
26:46
That is a non negotiable. And I hear from so many people
26:49
that they have given out such generous crickets and their
26:51
time. And it's crickets from the
26:53
combo, which I, I don't subscribe to.
26:56
But I will say from a professional perspective, you
27:00
know, if you just went on an interview and they're
27:03
interviewing X amount of candidates, you might not have
27:05
time for the sale mail to get there, You know, before they're
27:08
thinking, why haven't they acknowledged the interview?
27:11
Why haven't they thanked me? So in that, in that sense, I, I
27:14
like the kind of dual strategy where you send a quick follow up
27:18
e-mail or however you've been corresponding with the person to
27:21
thank them and then you double down and also send a thank you
27:24
note. So that way you're not missing
27:25
your chance of having that immediate communication again,
27:28
because we work so hard and fast, you know, in many
27:32
industries these days. But for events that are more
27:35
social or perhaps you know, are slower, so to speak.
27:40
There's no reason. Why you shouldn't write a
27:42
handwritten note? You know, if someone sends you a
27:44
gift and you want to let them know that it's made it to you
27:47
because a lot of people are sending expensive gifts, I think
27:49
that's also fine. You know that to tell them that
27:51
you said a quick text that you received it and that you're so
27:53
grateful and then again send a thank you note at a later date.
27:57
So I think it's a situational thing, but I am a huge, huge
28:01
proponent of handwritten thank you notes still.
28:04
I love to hear that. And I, you know, and I was
28:06
really curious where you, where you were on that, given that
28:09
you're in your 20s and, and that you're, you know, keeping up
28:13
with things that are modern. And I, I feel the same, but it's
28:15
nice to hear it from you for sure people.
28:17
Will fight me back on that and say really why?
28:20
Why doesn't a tech suffice? And in some situations it does.
28:23
But when we're talking about kind of the stage of life that
28:26
I'm in and there's showers and engagements and weddings and
28:29
babies and big life events that people are buying gifts for,
28:33
have a send a hammer and thank you have to.
28:36
Absolutely, I think so. And I think given that so many
28:39
people don't, I think that's all the more reason to say why
28:43
wouldn't you? Absolutely I would.
28:45
It's just an easy, like it's just the easy win for the people
28:48
who are intimidated by the blank sheet of paper.
28:52
Do you have anything that you see?
28:55
I'm saying you're thankful for something.
28:56
I think anybody can find you know what to say anywhere and
28:59
it's just two or three sentences.
29:01
But is there anything that you see that you would advise
29:04
against a look a a paper that they would select just sort of
29:09
the how to send the right kind of note and maybe one or two
29:13
things to avoid? I think in terms of the right
29:17
kind of note, you know, of course anyone can say thank you,
29:19
but if, if you can add a sentence about what the gift or
29:23
the, it doesn't always have to be for a gift, right?
29:25
It can be for a paper. I've had people make certain
29:28
professional connections for me and I send them a thank you note
29:30
for that. But if you can write a sentence
29:33
or two about how it impacted you, whether it's, you know, how
29:38
wonderful the candle looks in your house or what the
29:41
professional connection, you know, it would be a great
29:44
opportunity for you. Whatever you can can put into
29:46
words. But other than thank you for the
29:49
gift or thank you for introducing me to so and so, if
29:51
you can add a sentence about the impact, I think that that's a
29:55
really wonderful way to really put a lot of intention behind a
29:58
thank you note In terms of mistakes to avoid, I mean, I'm
30:03
at the point where I'm like, just send one.
30:04
I read a lot of people send them.
30:06
They don't have stationary on hand.
30:09
The big mistake to avoid, so you can take a little section of of
30:13
your home and just stack up some note cards, you know, generic
30:17
cards or personalized stationery and you have them on hand so
30:20
that when that favorite or gift comes, you don't have to take
30:23
the extra step of now I have to go get thank you cards.
30:25
Now I have to do this. You know, so much of what I
30:29
believe, you know, comes from the, the thoughtful piece of
30:31
etiquette is preparation is having the things on, on hand
30:35
ready to go. Because we move so quickly in
30:37
our, in our lives now, you know, that's when those things get put
30:41
on the back burner, right? We don't have stationary and now
30:43
we have to go get it or order it and that gets moved, you know,
30:46
down on the priority list. And so I think that's a, that's
30:50
a big mistake to avoid is, is not having stationary on hand.
30:54
So that takes 2 seconds to write the note, you know, put the
30:58
address on the front, mail it. I know we don't, we don't mail
31:01
things as often anymore. I'm like it takes no time at
31:04
all. It doesn't.
31:06
It really doesn't. And to your point, I mean, the
31:07
next time you're at Target or somewhere else, just some
31:10
pretty, I would, you know, generic looking, not overly
31:15
characterized as pink or frilly or, you know, Plaid and
31:19
masculine. Just something clean and have it
31:22
on hand with some stamps and you just always have that ready to
31:24
go. Exactly.
31:25
I always keep a small cabinet in my office with, I mean, I, I
31:29
love stationary so I have AI have a big assortment, but I
31:32
always have stamps and and something so that if something
31:36
comes through, I can turn it around the same day or in a day
31:39
or two and I really have no excuse.
31:42
Right, right. So, OK, going back to the
31:44
screen, so we're talking about, you know, writing when you are
31:48
sending, sending something and it's going to come through a
31:50
screen, whether it's a text or an e-mail.
31:53
Is there a common way that you feel like people get misread?
31:57
Is there a lot of times where I'll read something that someone
31:59
wrote and I'm like just that just didn't come across the way
32:03
they wanted it to? Is there a common thing way that
32:06
you can catch mistakes before you hit send?
32:08
I think there's. 2 Two things that come to mind when you say
32:11
that the first thing is using discretion when it comes to the
32:15
method of communication that you've used.
32:18
So sometimes people will send texts or emails for things that
32:21
should really be a phone call or things that really or a quick
32:25
conversation in person where you really need to hear somebody's
32:28
tone. You really need to see somebody
32:30
find language in their mannerisms.
32:32
And so I think that that's kind of where things get lost is when
32:36
you know, it really should have been an in person conversation
32:39
or, or you hear somebody's voice and now now you're trying to
32:44
interpret tone over an e-mail and that's just difficult for
32:47
everybody. So that that comes to mind using
32:49
discretion of what method of communication should I use for
32:53
this conversation? It's so important.
32:55
And the second thing I think about is, and I hear this from
32:59
HR managers and CEOs and, you know, heads of internship
33:03
programs or whatever it may be, that there's such a lack of
33:06
formality in our digital communication now that that also
33:10
leads to miscommunication or misunderstanding of tone or
33:14
anything like that. So the people aren't using
33:17
greetings anymore and they're treating e-mail like it's a
33:20
text. And so I think that there is a
33:23
lack of formality in how we communicate digitally and you.
33:26
Would advocate for the formality coming back.
33:29
Just understanding a few little things.
33:31
Especially, you know, when an e-mail is supposed to be a
33:35
professional e-mail, it needs to read professional because if it
33:37
didn't have to be professional, then it could probably be a, you
33:40
know, if you work for a large company and you have Teams or
33:43
Slack and it could be a message where you don't need to have a a
33:46
good morning and a opening, then it didn't need to be an e-mail.
33:50
So that's that. That goes back to really using
33:52
your discretion. But especially for the younger
33:54
generations who are, you know, working to build up their
33:56
professional image and their credibility, you can't go wrong
33:59
with Erin. Undecided more.
34:02
Absolutely. I learned that working with
34:05
people in Europe because that's one of the things that I think
34:08
they they do so well still is there's so much formality that's
34:11
expected. And I think that's a part of,
34:13
you know, you've got formal and informal actual language, right?
34:18
And so, and they use it commonly.
34:19
It's not like, you know, now teaching people formal language
34:22
on it, you know, a wedding invitation.
34:24
They're like, you know, mixing tenses, mixing phrases and like,
34:27
no, you can't do that. And why not?
34:28
You know, we have no education on it whatsoever.
34:31
Yes. Absolutely.
34:32
And and it's a respect thing too.
34:34
That's it. I mean, yes, it's to build your
34:35
professional image, but it's also it's also respect in your
34:39
communication, right? I'm going to double down on that
34:41
because I do this a lot with when we're issuing a formal
34:44
invitation, Mr. and misses are inviting you, but then the groom
34:47
doesn't have a Mr. and and they go and they think it's a gender
34:51
equality thing and it's a respect thing.
34:53
No, I'm calling you Mr. because I've used that title for myself.
34:57
And we don't call our daughter that because that would have
34:59
been, you know, that's that's an incorrect.
35:02
Which formality you always are familiar with your child, but
35:05
you would never be familiar with someone who's not your child.
35:07
You're respectful, right. So that's those things that I
35:11
wish we were still taught, but but we're not.
35:14
And so you know, it's. Such a nuance of of etiquette
35:18
that I feel is less and less common.
35:22
I mean, what? When do we use formal language
35:24
on invitations other than weddings these days?
35:26
And I. Think to that point, though, you
35:28
know, now I'm thinking out loud the the formality is an
35:31
indication of the importance, right?
35:35
I mean, we're using formal language because it's important.
35:38
And so to keep all of that congruent and all of that
35:41
consistent is something that I really think is a nice thing for
35:45
people to learn as a concept. Your point, you have a tool and
35:48
not a rule. It's not do I use Mr. do I not?
35:51
I'm being formal because I'm being respectful, not because
35:54
I'm just trying to be snotty or. Generally, and because you care.
35:59
Right, exactly. So I want to talk about
36:01
generation gap. Our audience spans from people
36:04
raised, you know, on handwritten notes to people raised on
36:07
screens, which we've talked about.
36:09
What do you see as the best bridge to credibility going both
36:13
ways? How does someone who really to
36:16
your point, you know, a a gentleman who would, who was in
36:19
his 60s or 70s and would never let a woman open the door for
36:23
him. How does he communicate that
36:26
he's respectful of a woman in her 20s who wants to open the
36:30
door for you? Because this is how I'm taught
36:32
that I'm respectful. Like how so?
36:34
It's both ways, I think. How does the older generation
36:38
respect a younger generation and give them space to grow and
36:41
become? And how does the younger
36:43
generation validate the experience and the authority of
36:51
an older generation? Like how does that work?
36:53
It's a really, really good question because the
36:55
generational gap with etiquette is, is so apparent and it's
36:58
something I hear in the professional world a lot, but
37:01
also that you see socially. And I think it's for starters,
37:07
less judgement is is so important because I think that
37:10
most people are not trying to be inherently rude.
37:14
And so a lot of times I hear from the older generation about
37:16
my generation, the way we communicate, the way, you know,
37:20
and I get it. Trust me.
37:21
There are some things about my generation that frustrate me to
37:24
no end about how we communicate. But I also think that we were
37:28
raised in a different day and age, to your point.
37:30
And so we are doing the best with what we know, with what
37:33
we've been taught. But with that, there is a level
37:36
of respect and tradition and formality that I still think
37:40
really shows that that you care and you respect people.
37:43
And so when it comes to generations kind of meeting in
37:47
the middle, the biggest thing I can say is to use your words and
37:51
talk and and take a minute to to speak with people in these
37:56
interactions. So whether it's, you know,
37:58
someone from an older generation kind of walking through why they
38:01
did something or a younger generation owning up to
38:04
something that maybe they could have done better or whatever it
38:06
is. If we can on one end judge a
38:09
little less and meet people where they are, and on the other
38:11
end communicate more and use our words, we might be able to
38:15
understand where generations are coming from.
38:19
But I, I understand from both sides why it could be
38:22
frustrating and why there is such a gap.
38:25
You know, I think about these people who are far late into
38:29
their careers. This whole work from home thing
38:32
is brand new to that. Even though it's six years old
38:34
now, it's still brand new in the scope of their whole career.
38:38
Whereas my generation and younger home is all they know,
38:42
they may have never even stepped into an office before.
38:45
So it's not that they are inherently trying to be rude,
38:48
it's that this is what they know.
38:49
And it's, it's a different time. So I think using our words and
38:53
and trying to be as kind and respectful as we can and judge
38:57
less, it could be helpful to kind of bridge that gap.
39:01
Absolutely. When somebody comes and says,
39:03
I'm just, I'm anxious about this, right?
39:06
I don't want to go do this because social anxiety, I mean,
39:09
we're obviously not psychologists, but I always
39:12
teased, you know, the, the people that worked for me that
39:14
we're dealing directly with, you know, families through
39:16
invitations and whatnot. I was like, I'm going to give
39:18
everybody a certificate on their wall that says, you know, family
39:21
therapist, like you didn't say that.
39:23
All the time. I'm the most unqualified
39:25
therapist that exists, the most most qualified, so this might
39:29
help. I did hear somebody say one time
39:31
that people who work in psychology or psychiatry, a lot
39:36
of their work comes from digging to the past.
39:39
As somebody who is a trainer or a coach or a consultant, we are
39:42
we help people move forward. So that kind of helps me.
39:46
There's a lot of this work that I do and that we do is it's,
39:49
it's personal. I look at it as, you know, if
39:52
you wanted to play a new sport or pick up a new hobby or play a
39:55
new instrument, you would practice and you would take
39:59
classes and you would watch YouTube videos and you would do
40:02
what you needed to do in order to improve.
40:04
And I think social skills, though they come naturally to
40:07
many people, they don't for most.
40:10
And so I think like anything that you would take on and want
40:14
to become better at, you would practice, you would learn, you
40:17
would study, you would put yourself in situations that
40:20
might be uncomfortable to help you grow.
40:22
And so that's kind of how I look at it.
40:23
It's a it's a skill like any other.
40:26
I love that and I love, I actually really love the analogy
40:30
of learning an instrument because I think dealing with
40:33
that social anxiety is exactly that.
40:35
Have you ever, would you even expect someone to pick up drums
40:39
or a piano or a horn and it not sound horrible the first time?
40:44
So if you can find a safe space to practice in and you're also
40:48
not going to go out on the street and perform the first
40:50
time you pick it up, right? Exactly.
40:52
Exactly. It's small.
40:53
Maybe it's speaking up when you're out to dinner when
40:55
normally you wouldn't right before you go.
40:58
Now you have a wedding to go to and now you have to mingle with
41:00
people and that's maybe the bigger event or you have to
41:02
present at work and that's potentially your worst nightmare
41:06
ever. But those social skills we can
41:08
we can practice when we're ordering coffee, when we're
41:11
getting a bagel, when we're, you know, walking past someone on
41:14
the street. Like it's the same thing.
41:16
Like you said, you wouldn't just expect yourself to be an expert
41:19
at it right in the beginning. Even if it comes naturally to
41:22
you and it doesn't give you anxiety, there's still skills
41:25
that you can build. Absolutely, absolutely.
41:29
I love that analogy. That's that's really a good one.
41:31
What do you think the younger generation has gotten right that
41:35
they're not getting enough credit for?
41:38
I think the younger generation, they're actually better
41:40
communicators than people give them credit for.
41:44
Yes, maybe, maybe it's very digital, maybe we're so social
41:47
media focused. But I think that my generation
41:51
and younger generations are more open to talking about things,
41:55
whereas perhaps the older generations would, you know,
41:58
sweep it under the rug or not bring up difficult conversations
42:01
in an effort not to ruffle feathers or things like that,
42:05
where I think my generation is a little bit more open to having
42:09
those harder conversation. That's interesting.
42:12
I think that's like, I can see that because I'm, I'm thinking
42:15
about my goddaughters and my, you know, nieces and, and I'm
42:19
impressed with how they communicate and I even look at
42:22
them in their late 20s and go, or they're, they're in their
42:25
early mid 20s and go. I wasn't that mature at 20
42:29
something. I wasn't, I wish I was, but I
42:32
definitely wasn't. I have always thought when I
42:35
have told people, you know, when they ask what I do or if I just
42:39
come off of a, you know, TV interview or something and on a
42:42
plane, what are you doing here? And you say anything about
42:45
etiquette. I always thought this is this
42:46
must be what like a priest feels like traveling, you know, in the
42:50
collar because people look at you and go, Oh, let's I'm not
42:53
going to say anything else. So I want to know like, do you
42:57
have any funny stories or do you have anything like that?
42:59
I mean, I you're laughing like it's familiar, so I'm not even
43:02
going to ask if it's familiar. I know it has to be it's.
43:04
So familiar because I have to immediately say I'm not judging
43:10
you. That's usually the, the initial
43:12
reaction is someone will like sit up a little straighter or
43:15
they'll be like, Oh my gosh, did you just watch me eat my meal?
43:18
And I'm like, no, I will never, ever point out something that I
43:22
see someone doing. I put air quotes if you're
43:24
listening wrong or correct someone on something ever, ever,
43:29
ever, unless I'm working or #2 they ask me, you know, is the
43:33
right way that I'm doing my napkin.
43:35
Did I introduce that person correctly?
43:36
What does my handshake feel like?
43:38
So unless you come and you want to know, I'm happy to, to help,
43:42
but I would never ever point that out in someone just because
43:47
I'm, you know, I'm, I'm always looking for it because it's my
43:50
profession. Right.
43:51
And I think like anything else, it's just not that it's, I mean
43:55
it is kind of impossible to turn off, but it's also easy to turn
43:58
off, right? Like soon you're when you're
44:00
relaxed, you're relaxed, yes. I always tell people I grew up
44:04
in New Jersey. I live in New York City now.
44:06
I have a lot of Northeast in my blood.
44:09
I'm not, I'm not, you know, I, I'm not this prim and proper,
44:12
you know, person who I think a lot of people expect me to be.
44:16
I've, I've yelled at cabs in the street, I've eaten on my couch,
44:19
right? I am, I'm, I'm a regular person.
44:21
And so just because I, I teach a topic that has this preconceived
44:25
notion of being formal, I'd like to think my ducks are in a row.
44:29
I'd like to think I'm I'm buttoned up in most aspects of
44:31
my life, but I I surely I like to assure people that it's not
44:36
about perfection and not about performance.
44:38
Yeah, absolutely. So the show is called Social
44:42
Insecurity, 3 words. And then sometimes we sort of
44:44
play with it by using it as 2 words, Social insecurity, right?
44:48
I think that one of the things that you and I both know
44:51
intimately that we try to convey through teaching people
44:55
etiquette and talking about this is frankly like perfection is
44:58
robotic and unrelatable. And that's what, not what we're
45:01
going for, right? But on the same level, we all
45:05
want to improve or, or you and I will be out of a job.
45:08
They all want to improve and we all want to look good.
45:11
And no one's trying to reach for perfection.
45:13
And perfection is not expected of anyone.
45:16
In fact, it would be boring and and not fun, but there is
45:22
usually a tell that that someone has when they're trying and when
45:27
somebody walks into a room or when somebody is a new employee
45:31
or someone you know, a bride and groom.
45:34
Can you think of something that you know just because of your
45:36
professional experience? Is the tell that they don't they
45:40
don't want to be telling people that they tell you it's an
45:43
inexperienced tell. What's the tell that that you
45:48
go, OK, they they don't know and they maybe need to know.
45:51
And to your point, you're not going to tell them unless they
45:53
ask. But as an expert, what could you
45:57
generically say right now? And do you have a story to back
46:00
that up where someone could maybe hear it and learn before
46:02
they get in that situation? So the first thing I think
46:06
about, two things come to mind. I think the first thing I think
46:10
about that I would notice the quickest because it's so visual
46:14
is if someone wasn't dressed properly for, for whatever their
46:18
doing. So if it's the first day of the
46:20
job, if it's a certain dress code for a wedding or whatever
46:23
it was, I think because you can see that instantly that to me
46:27
would either say they're, they're not aware, they don't
46:30
understand what that means, they didn't care enough to look if
46:33
there was a dress code. They don't take pride in their
46:36
appearance. They're not looking at it as a
46:37
form of self respect and respect for others.
46:40
So I would say that's a big telltale sign for me.
46:42
Now, that's not to say that they're not a wonderful person
46:45
and they're high, but if we're thinking about, you know,
46:49
improving and putting our best foot forward and being the best
46:52
version of ourselves, I think that's such a visual thing that
46:54
I could pick up on immediately. You know, if someone were to
46:57
walk in for a job interview dressed not in the right way,
47:00
that's that's a, you know, easy telltale sign that they, you
47:04
know, are not thinking about how immediate first impressions are.
47:08
The other thing I think about is anytime somebody socially or
47:11
professionally, their instinct is to point out something wrong
47:17
if they see in someone else or make fun of someone or or put
47:23
someone down in front of other people.
47:25
That's another thing that makes to me screams of their own
47:29
social insecurity. And so that they they are there
47:32
to protect themselves by taking that out on somebody else.
47:35
I think that those are those are the two that stick out to me the
47:38
most. And those are really good.
47:40
And especially that second one, I remember back when I had, you
47:44
know, a whole bunch of employees, I would always say I
47:49
will pay for an improv class if you want to go because you learn
47:52
what's funny and what's not. Because I think a lot of people
47:55
that are trying to point out something, they're either doing
47:57
it to make themselves look better in a situation where
48:00
it's, you know, serious, or they're doing it to make
48:03
themselves look better because they perceive making fun of
48:05
somebody is funny. Absolutely.
48:08
You know, and I said, you know two things about an improv Class
48:11
1, you learn what's funny and what's not and, and making fun
48:14
of somebody else is never funny. And 2nd it's a yes and situation
48:18
like that's the whole thing is yes.
48:20
And and you and you learn to build and go forward, which is
48:23
what we like to teach people to do instead of ruminating and
48:26
going backward, Yes. I work with a school in the city
48:29
and I had worked with their students on a big public
48:32
speaking project that they had. And one of the parts of this
48:37
kind of workshop they were doing in addition to my my lessons and
48:42
my workshops where they had to attend and didn't have classic
48:45
repair for the thing that they had.
48:47
And I thought, that's such a great idea.
48:48
I love. That, that is so cool.
48:50
I want you to tell us like, where can we find your services?
48:53
Where can we take these classes? Tell people how to contact you.
48:56
So my website is www.mariahhumbert.com and that
49:02
will take you to all of my social media platforms, my
49:05
books, the services that Ioffer, some, you know, media work that
49:09
I've done. Everything is there, but my
49:11
Instagram is where I'm most active on social media.
49:14
And that's just Mariah dot Humbert.
49:15
So if you have my name, you'll be able to find me somewhere,
49:19
yes? So do you have anything coming
49:21
up that we need to know about that we need to tell people
49:23
about book? #3 the the Maddie's group was
49:26
just submitted for book #3 So that will come out sometime in
49:29
the summer of 27. And that will be a kind of a
49:33
work life social event relationship etiquette guide for
49:38
younger generations of how to navigate life with confidence in
49:42
these different social situations and tricky
49:44
conversations and tools that they need to be the best version
49:48
of themselves in work and life. And so that will that will come
49:50
out next summer. Fantastic.
49:53
Congratulations. Thank you so much.
49:55
I appreciate you so much. Thank you.
49:57
Heather, this was so fun. That was Social insecurity with
50:02
Heather Wiese. New episodes drop every
50:06
Thursday. Subscribe, leave a comment and
50:09
send this to someone who would appreciate it.