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The 5 o' Clock Shadow with David Shapiro and Viv Govender · Strictly Business

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You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams.
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The JSC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the 5 o'clock
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shadow.
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And as always on a Thursday, it's the Doubleheader Dream Team edition with Viv
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Govender from RAND Swiss and David Shapiro from Sasson
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Securities, both in Johannesburg.
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I've got a little bit of a list here, gentlemen.
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I want to start with you, David, because ASML, that's a stock that you have
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favoured for a long time.
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They came out with numbers.
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Did they justify your enthusiasm?
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Oh, yeah, the numbers did.
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I think anything that's come out at the moment, TSM, the same kind of thing.
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The numbers that they're producing are just quite incredible.
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And if you look what's going to be spent, especially ASML, why I liked ASML's
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results is that
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the number of deliveries that are taking place was far ahead of expectation, just
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showing
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what machines, Samsung, TSM.
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SK Hynix and Uvamistat Micron are buying.
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So we're not slowing down.
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The market's slowing down, and we can talk about that.
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The market's creating a wall of worry around this.
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But I mean, the companies themselves, the numbers, the pure accounting numbers are
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outstanding.
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I don't think you can do better.
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They far exceeded market expectations.
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But I think...
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The market's in a very strange mood at the moment.
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So didn't disappoint at all.
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No, didn't disappoint.
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But as you say, the market is starting to look a little bit, I don't know, looking a
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little bit bitty, actually.
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I'm looking at the most active on my stocks list at the moment, Micron down
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another 4%, Sandisk, NVIDIA,
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all down there.
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And when I was looking at the 52-week highs yesterday, Viv, I'm going to have to
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come to you on this one, even though it's not your
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chosen field, but you watch them.
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because It's bank reporting season.
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The 52-week highs were bank, Where are they making their money, Viv?
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Is it from proprietary trading or are they doing deals?
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Are they transacting?
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All of these deals, they talked about like, you know, it's called great M&A
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activity.
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They talked about, obviously, it's got other deals happening in the system.
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Remember when the previous administration was in power in the U.S., there was a
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person called Lina Khan, and she was running the FTC at the time.
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And she basically had...
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almost extremist version of the regulator's powers.
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So not only was she saying that, you know, they could refuse on a number of different
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factors, she said they could retroactively refuse.
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So they could basically agree to a deal and then go back and decide, no, the deal
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wasn't right and have it break up.
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She, like, blocked deals that were silly, like, for instance, you know, Amazon and,
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like, Roomba, a couple, like, you know, game
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companies, et cetera.
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It was really a very interventionist, you know...
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It was regime.
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And since that she's been let go, I think we've seen a lot more activity happening
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in the sector, in the US especially.
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And I think that is obviously something to be looked at.
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And also remember that, you know, when it comes to these deals, these are global
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companies in the United States.
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So if you have one area of the world saying no, that pretty much stops
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everywhere because, you know, you have to have agreements all over the world to have
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these deals go through.
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OK, David, are you a fan of banks?
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I know you don't like banks in South Africa.
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Do you like American banks?
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I do not like them.
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I just think that banks, I like what's happening now.
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I like what you're talking about.
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I love it when markets are moving.
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I mean, the economies are moving and things are being done.
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And therefore, there's mergers and acquisitions, there's IPOs, new listings,
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and underwriting.
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That's when I like banks, when they become very involved in activity.
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But I've got to say one thing now.
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I don't know whether you want me to digress as well.
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Please do.
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But we've been looking at the European banks, and they've been doing incredibly
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well,
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the wealth managers.
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And when you delve into them, a lot of it is being focused, such
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as UBS or HSBC, on the emerging Asian economy.
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Oh, sorry, the emerging Asian wealth.
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In fact, the one statement he read is that soon there'll be more billionaires or
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millionaires
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in Taiwan than there will be in Switzerland or something around that.
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So they're focusing on the people who are making money
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through AI, through the chip companies and so on.
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All the young people or managers that are making money, they're beginning to focus
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on them from a wealth management point of view and
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doing very well.
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So banks are starting to look interesting, you know, from a point of view is that we
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forget that wealth is being created.
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in the world, you know, from the subjects that we talk about all the time.
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And we'll start to benefit, you know, we'll start to gain from that.
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So it's an interesting area.
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South African banks, you know, they're doing fine.
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You know, they're just plodding along.
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But I think some of the international banks are beginning to look closer at
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them.
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And, you know, particularly as we start to see the multiplier effect coming from the
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wealth created through
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this.
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through the AI industry or the AI supply chain.
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I still want to see what the percentage of proprietary trading is for the banks'
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numbers that have been coming out over the last week.
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So if anyone's looking through any of the results that have come out already, I'd
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love to know that.
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But while David's doing that, if he is going to do that.
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Tell me about SpaceX.
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David and I spoke about SpaceX on Monday, and David spent his weekend reading about
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SpaceX, and he came out with
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this target from one of the analysts of $800 per share.
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You saw that, Viv, yeah, that was sent to you as well, and you said, what are they
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smoking?
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But it's now back, well, it was yesterday anyway, at around about $135 per share,
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which was the IPO
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price, Viv.
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What do you make of it now?
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Are you looking at it now and saying, OK?
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It went to $225.
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It's back to $135.
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Now is the time to have a look at it?
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Look, I think it's still quite expensive.
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This is pretty much the IPO price, and the IPO price was expensive.
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It wasn't exactly coming in cheap.
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You've got to take two parts of the business together and see what is worth
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what.
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The space business, I think, is a real advantage they have because nobody else in
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the world is close to them.
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In fact, it's probably one of the most impressive leads in the industry that
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you're going to see anywhere in the world.
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Much more impressive than Nvidia in chips, much more impressive than Apple in cell
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phones, etc.
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What SpaceX is able to do with regards to space launches, etc.
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The other part of the business is not so interesting at the moment.
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I mean, I think Sam Alpern made a joke about the fact that Elon Musk is going to
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be downgraded his AI company to selling to
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be a cloud company as opposed to an AI company.
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Because he can't seem to get the real brainpower behind it that's going to
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basically go out there and...
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to make the new ideas, make the new conceptual leaps, etc., to get his grok up
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to the same level as
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the Claudes and Geminis and the Chachibides of the world.
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But he can get the electricians, the blue-collar workers, to work well in ways
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that are
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quite innovative and quite aggressive, in order to build the computing power faster
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than anybody else in the world.
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And so he may turn out to be the world supplier of cloud.
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services as opposed to the world's supply of AI.
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And in the AI space, that's obviously a very different kind of business, a very
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different kind of multiple.
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So it sounds to me that at some stage in the future, in the next five years or so,
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SpaceX will be split up into different
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companies.
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It sounds as though that might happen as the company evolves.
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David, I said when I sent you a message back to your kind message you sent me, I
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said, so in other words, you're
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lurking, you're poised.
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And I was referring to whether you get into the SpaceX market.
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Tell us more, please.
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Well, I'll bring Vivian in this way.
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It's a bit of a tongue-in-cheek approach that I'm taking.
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And it's something that I'm bringing up all the time or raising, particularly at
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the firm.
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I'm saying, how do we value analysts?
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What's their worth?
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Do they justify the amount of money that they are paid at some of the large groups?
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And why I say that is simply because Raymond James have come out with the $800
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target
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price.
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I think the average is around about $240.
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I read the UBS report, which is around $210.
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So I'm saying, Vivian, this is where I'm coming from.
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I'm saying they go out and sell it.
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They don't employ analysts just to write reports and then to, you know, they send
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it to salesmen.
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and those salesmen phone up all their clients and say, you know, Our analyst has
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just looked at SpaceX.
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These are the issues that he likes.
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The fact that it's becoming a cloud company, using compute, sending
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satellites, blah, Lindsay Williams
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is using it, blah, and so on.
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And this is what he thinks.
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He's got a target price of $240,000.
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So they go out and sell it.
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I'm saying, if they're doing that, and the shares are now $125,000 or $1.
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I think they just picked up a little today, 135.
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Okay, I'm going to have a punt because someone's going to fall for it and start
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buying.
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You know, my downside is limited by the numbers put on by these analysts.
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How do we rate these analysts?
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So that's my full research, other than reading it.
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Okay, Viv, you've got to come in here.
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Is that a good way to look at it?
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Do you say to yourself, like I would, I'd say there was such a scramble to get into
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the IPO, but now it's back where it was.
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You can just buy it on the open market, Viv.
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So why wouldn't there be a sort of a it's almost like you've got a put option there
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at 135, 130, something like that.
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I think Warren Buffett said it best.
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In the short term, the Buffett's a voting machine.
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The long term, it's a weighing machine.
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The short term, it's sentiment.
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The long term, it's actual fundamentals.
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Look, it's possible that SpaceX has fundamentals that justify $800 a share.
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That's a $10 trillion company just about, you know what I mean?
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That's twice the size of NVIDIA.
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What market justifies that, you know what I mean?
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What revenue does the company need to bring in to justify that?
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And where is it going to come from?
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$10 trillion is basically, I mean, I think global GDP is around about $125, $130
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trillion.
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This is close on 10% of global GDP for one company.
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What is the marketplace that justifies that?
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But look.
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If you can get things, for instance, like either the
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space data centers working, space mining working, but I don't think space mining is
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actually a feasible industry.
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Because, I mean, the danger of space mining is effectively you're giving a
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private company an arsenal bigger than any nuclear arsenal in the world.
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Because you drop something from space, the power it has to come to Earth becomes
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gigantic.
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So I don't think space mining is actually a real thing in the future.
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So it has to be something like the space data centers or...
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traveling to Mars, that kind of stuff.
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Maybe that works out, but that does not work out next year or the year after that.
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And so I think that you're having a very long-term, very optimistic view.
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And the valuation, I mean, even right now, it's still an extremely valuable company,
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you know?
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I just can't see where the marketplace is in the short to medium term to justify it
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right now.
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And so that's why I stay away.
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You could be quite right.
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I'm just taking a punt.
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I'm just being, that's why I say I'm being a little cynical tongue-in-cheek.
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I'm saying let's see the power of the analysts.
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Why do we employ them?
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So I've been going at them all the time because when I look at some of the
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valuations that are coming out in the
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market, even if they don't get anywhere close to what their projected prices are,
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still going to
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make a lot of money.
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But how powerful and how strong are these people and how relevant are they?
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How correct are they?
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Lindsay, I've got your numbers, mate.
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I've got your numbers.
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Okay, thank you very much.
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My question was, just in case anyone nodded off, I was asking what percentage
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of the bank's
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numbers, the revenue, for example, is proprietary trading?
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I would say, given that it's been a bull market, I would say it's a fairly decent
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chunk, David.
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What do the numbers say?
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Well, I've got the equity trading, okay?
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I haven't got the bond trading.
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But if you look to JP Morgan, income was $21.2 billion.
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Admittedly, they sold their Visa stake and booked $4.6 billion.
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So that was exceptional.
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But of the $21.2 billion, $6 billion was equity markets.
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I haven't got their bond trading.
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For their own book.
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That was up 86%.
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And I think this is all around the equity market as well as the… as the IPOs and so
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on.
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They're all associated.
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Goldman Sachs up nearly 80% at $6.63 billion.
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Bank of America up 33%, $7.1 billion.
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They're not as involved as JP Morgan or Goldman.
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They're not as big.
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Citigroup, also a much smaller bank, $2.3 billion, but up 45%.
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I think those are the the relevant numbers just.
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you know how big they are how much how much they were up from the quarter last
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year i'm going to try to delve into the bond you
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know bond trading you know but it's a significant number that's the point and
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that i always find a significant number i find it very dangerous
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especially if the market turns and then the next quarter yeah that chunk will be
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significantly smaller that's my opinion oh yeah
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no they're not going to repeat these numbers you know they won't unless we get
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a lot more uh deals taking
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place you Look, we've got Anthropic coming and you've got OpenAI that could come that
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might
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create the same kind of stir on the markets.
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But they do make money.
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And I mean, it's quite, you know, when you think about what these bankers are going
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to take place, what
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these chaps sitting on the desk, the amount of money that they're going to make
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for themselves.
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It's really, it's quite.
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It's absolutely ridiculous.
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It is.
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That's why they can buy these 20-dollion.
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20 million dollar apartments in New York or 25 million and then go and have another
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house in the
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Hamptons and so on.
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Yeah, sometimes there's valid reason for, you know, for the protests that take place
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and for the
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demands that they give a little back.
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Exactly.
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Suddenly, Davis, jealousy was the first thing that came out of your last
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statement.
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But also suddenly you become a bit of a Mamdani.
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but let's not go into that.
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Text them,
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Drive them out of New York, I say.
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Viv, what was I going to say to you?
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There was something important I needed to say to you, but I've forgotten completely
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what it was because of David becoming a socialist.
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But David, I have to quickly stay with you, and Viv can come in on this one as
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well, please.
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The Richemont numbers were fantastic, weren't they?
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Yeah, Yeah, superb.
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And it's, I like...
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Viv's opinion on this, and Viv, it's nice to discuss it, because I read, you know,
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this is
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where I have this, not conundrum, but this difficulty, irony.
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First of all, we hear that Phoenicia closing down.
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That's the biggest diamond mine in South Africa.
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It's not a big mine in terms of De Beers, but what this spells out is that the fake,
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not fake, these industrial
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diamonds now.
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or the prices are coming down and therefore affecting the diamond industry.
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And yet Richemont's numbers came from selling jewelry.
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Yes.
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Cartier and Fonclair Fonopels.
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And this was never a big part.
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When we used to talk about Richemont, we spoke about their watches, you know, the
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high-end watches.
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That was where they made most of their money.
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Sales were down there.
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So this is all around jewelry, which is becoming a store of value and is actually
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sales are exceeding or interest is exceeding what we're seeing in other
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luxury companies like LVMH
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and Kering and other places like you know bags, Hermes, the bags and the fashion.
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So it's kind of taking over the luxury market from Cleopatra and Cartier and
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these are high level
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you know very wealthy people buying very wealthy pieces of jewelry, which is which
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is odd.
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And it was widespread.
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The sales were broadly spread.
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It wasn't confined to one particular area.
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And it's an incredibly interesting change in trend because Richemont was always what
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I call
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the bridesmaid or the ugly sister.
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And suddenly it's a Cinderella.
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It's blossoming.
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I was speaking to a South African fund manager yesterday, and he said he would
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consider now Richemont to be the world's premier luxury goods
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company.
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Now he was speaking with his South African hat on.
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But there is something to it.
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Do these sort of numbers make you interested, Viv?
17:55
Look, I mean, the interesting thing about luxury is that, you know, it's very
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difficult to build a new luxury brand.
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I mean, like you talked about the fact that people are spending more money on the
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jewelry business, which kind of makes sense in a way, if you think about it.
18:05
People in the world are getting very, very wealthy.
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I mean, how much gold are you going to be able to wear on the neck to show that
18:11
you're rich?
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It becomes almost a sense of style.
18:14
If you were really poor, having a silk dress was the thing.
18:18
But if you were quite wealthy, you have to have a silk dress that's also designed by
18:22
a great designer, if you know what I mean.
18:24
Just having a thick gold chain doesn't give you the same cachet as having a thick
18:28
gold chain that's also designed very beautifully
18:31
with artistic elements in it, etc.
18:34
I think that could be one of the reasons we've seen some of these companies do
18:36
really well, is because people are getting wealthier and they're also going towards
18:40
not just the underlying
18:41
asset, but the diamond or the gold, but also towards the artistic and the
18:48
aesthetic qualities behind things, which might be one way.
18:51
But I do think that if you are looking at the world in which people are making a
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fortune in AI, where you have these fortunes being made in different things,
18:58
you are going to find people spending more money on, like I said, jewelry.
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We saw that with Bitcoin, when the crypto stuff was really aging out.
19:07
We saw a lot of luxury brands do really well because these Bitcoin millionaires,
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also in this case billionaires, wanted
19:14
to spend their money.
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And one thing they could spend their money on was luxury goods.
19:18
And I think that's something similar we're going to be seeing as these AI companies
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start to spread the wealth around.
19:23
I saw somebody yesterday and he had a very nice watch on.
19:26
I noticed it was a Rolex.
19:28
It had a different strap on it.
19:30
And I said, that's interesting.
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Where did you get that?
19:32
Oh, my father bought it for me 20 years ago.
19:35
And because I've watched the Antiques Roadshow on a Sunday night on BBC One, I
19:39
know that Rolex is incredibly highly prized.
19:42
I said, how much is it worth?
19:44
He said, well, if it had the original strap on, I didn't like it.
19:48
But if it had the original strap, which I think I've got, it's probably $45,000 to
19:52
$50,000.
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euros i said that's quite a lot to be holding to be having on your wrist there
19:57
and he said yeah if i go to london i can't wear
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it because there's there's such a crime wave of not only phones being stolen but
20:06
jewelry
20:07
being stolen people's had sit outside restaurants david and see somebody with
20:12
his with his wife or something or
20:14
whatever it is and they see that they're bedecked in jewelry out they come and they
20:18
and they they nick it they hold them up so you I
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don't know.
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Are people buying luxury for a store of value, as you said in your introduction?
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Yes and no.
20:30
Rolex is still, I mean, the fact that you can't wear it in London, you can't wear it
20:34
in South Africa.
20:35
But you can certainly wear it maybe in Europe and in the US and probably in the
20:42
Asian
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countries.
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But it is, that's the point that I was getting to with Richemont, that it It is
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becoming
20:51
a store of value.
20:52
Yes.
20:52
You know, how and why?
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And these are pieces where they're branded pieces, so you know it's Cartier.
21:00
You know, in other words, there is a bit of snob value around the design or the
21:06
piece that you buy.
21:08
I don't think it was ever like that.
21:10
You know, as long as I've been following Richemont, you know, it started off, they
21:16
even had the clothing.
21:17
Remember, they had a number of clothes like this.
21:19
Dunhill and I'm trying to remember where they try to go into fashion, try to go
21:25
into leather goods
21:26
without great success.
21:28
But it was always regarded as a specialist watch business.
21:32
Now, yes, they had from Cleopatra and they had Cartier on the side.
21:36
But, you know, I would always think, oh, you went into Cartier to buy a watch.
21:39
But no, not at all.
21:41
So it's quite, you know, it's quite remarkable how this company has turned
21:47
around.
21:48
or found its niche and how fashions have changed or tastes have changed.
21:55
But I mean, the results were good.
21:57
I'll tell you a stuff that will sort of blow your mind.
21:59
Do you know a kg of gold is worth more than a kg of $100 bills?
22:06
A kg of gold is worth more than a kilogram of $100 bills.
22:10
You mean the weight of a kilogram of gold is worth more than a kilogram of dollar
22:17
bills?
22:18
Yeah.
22:18
You're talking about a store of value.
22:21
Because the gold price is as high as a kg of gold.
22:25
You carry around basically a kilogram of $100 bills.
22:30
Gold is worth more.
22:31
And probably in this current world, probably a better store of value because
22:34
of the fact that it can't be as easily traced and
22:38
whatnot.
22:39
So it could be possible.
22:39
Many people live in countries that obviously have issues and so on.
22:42
So that could be someone putting their value towards gold or towards these kind
22:45
of metals and so on because of the fact that...
22:48
It is something more easy to transportable.
22:50
But yeah, it's an interesting fact.
22:52
I mean, you would have thought, you know, $100 bulls, you know, not worth the weight
22:56
of gold.
22:58
Gold in rand per kg, by the way, is, gosh, 2 million.
23:03
What is that number I've got down there?
23:06
Don't ask me to check.
23:07
No, no, I'm not going to ask you to check that, David.
23:10
It looks like 21,400, no, this can't be right, 2,114.
23:17
1,274 rand.
23:20
Is that correct?
23:21
2 million for a kilo of gold?
23:23
It can't be.
23:23
In rand.
23:24
Is that right?
23:24
It's about $150,000.
23:27
Why is it kilo rand?
23:32
In rand.
23:33
Anyway, I don't know.
23:34
I was just looking at my screen when Viv says kilos, but in rand terms.
23:37
Anyway, I don't want to get into that because I want to give you some numbers
23:40
now.
23:41
The dollar rand is pretty steady, actually.
23:43
It's at $16.41.
23:45
British pound against the rand is 22.14, and the euro rand is 18.78, with the euro
23:49
dollar at 1.1440.
23:51
That gold price keeps on dipping below 4,000, but there's lurking buyers there.
23:56
It keeps on getting nibbled away at.
23:59
It's almost the equilibrium point.
24:02
The market is sort of vacillating around that number.
24:05
It's currently 4,006, which is 1.25% down.
24:09
That's in U.S.
24:10
dollar terms.
24:11
Platinum is up a percent to 16.58.
24:14
And palladium is down a percent to $12.80 per ounce.
24:18
Now, the oil price, by the way, since we last spoke, which was two weeks ago,
24:23
another war has broken out, the same one that we had before, but it's
24:25
broken out again.
24:26
So the oil price is $84.82.
24:29
It's down a third of a percent today.
24:31
That's for Brent crude, and West Texas crude is $79.33.
24:34
Copper is $6.33, which is up 0.6%.
24:41
What else have we got?
24:42
S&P.
24:42
Nothing, down 0.2%.
24:43
The futures at 7,600.
24:45
September futures, that is the US 10-year bond yield, 4.57%.
24:49
The South African 10-year is 8.59%.
24:52
And Bitcoin, which has had a terrific couple of weeks, is 64,666, which is down
24:58
on the day
24:59
by 1.1%.
25:02
I'm going to get the winners and losers on the JSC in a moment.
25:07
But Viv, what else have you got?
25:08
Any nuggets of information that I and maybe even David has probably missed?
25:15
Yeah, look at the oil price.
25:16
The one thing I'm noticing is the oil price extended $85 a barrel.
25:20
But the RAND is still holding at about $16.40.
25:23
It really hasn't changed.
25:24
Yes.
25:24
When you start the walk, I mean, you were looking at the RAND basically moving quite
25:29
in lockstep with the oil price.
25:31
It was.
25:31
Obviously, going higher, oil prices meant a weaker currency.
25:35
And the gold price as well.
25:36
I mean, you would have thought at least being affected by the gold price now
25:38
breaking through 4,000 a couple of times.
25:42
I would have thought the round would have been weaker.
25:43
But the fact that it's holding quite strong is an interesting factor, I think.
25:47
Yeah, it is very interesting.
25:49
There seems to be you can't there's no correlation between the markets anymore.
25:55
That's a difficulty.
25:58
You've got the bond market.
25:59
which is not reflecting the equity market.
26:03
And then you've got the other equity market, which is reflecting the higher
26:06
interest rates or worries about oil price and so on.
26:08
There's almost like three different markets taking place as well.
26:12
But it's so difficult to correlate the oil price with the currency markets,
26:21
which I would relate to the bond markets.
26:23
So there's different personalities and very difficult to try and feather them
26:28
out.
26:29
Because as you say, I would have thought that the RAND would have been under a bit
26:32
of pressure.
26:32
Gold, on the other hand, is coming under pressure.
26:37
So those traditional correlations just aren't working.
26:42
I don't like the gold price.
26:43
I think it's battling at these levels and sooner or later it's going to make that
26:48
plunge through 4000
26:50
and once it happens psychologically, it starts to go down again.
26:54
And I'm arguing this point as well, Lindsay.
26:58
And a lot of it is based just on watching daily movements.
27:02
You start to create patterns in your head and say this is not reflecting what
27:09
analysts are saying.
27:10
It's bullish and it's starting to buy.
27:13
Should it start buying gold at these?
27:14
I don't see it.
27:15
I don't see it in the gold shares as well.
27:17
Well, if you look at the World Gold Council report, the amount.
27:21
that the the real buyers in other words the central banks are buying is is quite
27:26
significant i mean obviously the etfs and the
27:28
retail investors and whatever else unit trusts and stuff uh whatever they buy uh
27:35
is
27:35
it can be transitory you know it goes up and down but when when a central bank buys
27:40
a hundred tons of gold or something over a
27:42
period it stays there for many many years i get the impression that below that
27:46
around about this 4 000 level uh people are nibbling away
27:49
again But that's just me.
27:50
Let me have a look at the JSC now.
27:51
On the upside, Karoo up 7.6%.
27:54
Mondi, 3.8% to the good.
27:56
Grinrode up nearly 3%.
27:57
Sassl, near 3%.
27:59
Gaynor and Telcom up 2.7%.
28:01
On the downside, we've got poor old Pick and Pay down another 2.3%.
28:06
It's 18 round 99 on my screen.
28:09
How much cheaper can this get?
28:10
Because I spoke to a deep, deep value manager on Friday, and he has started
28:17
buying Pick and Pay.
28:20
I don't know, both of you, you've got your opinion on this, David.
28:23
It is based on the basis that Boxer is worth 30 Rand a share.
28:29
In other words, I'm making up numbers, but Boxer is worth 30 Rand a share to the
28:34
pick-and-pay share price, and it's
28:36
trading now at 14 or 15.
28:37
Therefore, the pick-and-pay brand is worth minus 15.
28:42
I think that's the approach.
28:47
Okay.
28:50
Well, I don't know.
28:51
I just think, you know, when I look at retailers, Lindsay, and you're with me on
28:55
this one, when I look at the trend in
28:58
retailers, they're heading south very fast.
29:02
The chart, I mean, the direction of the chart is awful.
29:05
Does that, Viv, when was the last time you were in a pick and pay store?
29:09
That's the first question I'm going to ask.
29:12
I think last week.
29:14
Okay.
29:14
But look, it's not all retailers.
29:15
I mean, ShopRite is not doing that badly.
29:18
And I think that's something that we looked at as well, is the fact that I
29:21
think we are seeing a change in the
29:25
dynamics of the retail sector with the delivery stuff.
29:27
I mean, you've seen them in Joburg or in South Africa, you see these little
29:31
delivery bikes everywhere.
29:32
That's a huge business at the moment.
29:34
It's only getting bigger.
29:35
And I do think that scale matters here.
29:37
And when you have one company worth $14 billion and one company worth $170
29:40
billion, I know who I'm betting on is going to be the one that has the
29:43
capital to win that battle.
29:45
And with regards to the Boxer pricing, I mean, pick and pay has shown that they may
29:50
be willing to get us on the Boxer shares, but they're not going to give the money
29:52
back to
29:53
the shareholders directly.
29:55
And that I think maybe why people are a bit worried about, you know, just given
29:58
the true value of coming through for Boxer.
30:00
But the retail space, I think, is incredibly exciting.
30:02
But unfortunately, I think it's going to be a win-or-take-all kind of situation,
30:05
not a rising tide raises all boats.
30:09
Well, I wish one of the South African retail specialists would get snapped up by
30:12
a Dutch retail chain because you have to
30:16
order.
30:17
If I order something now, if I order it before 9 o'clock this evening, it comes
30:23
before
30:24
9 o'clock tomorrow evening, and it's usually bang on 9 o'clock in the evening.
30:27
It's a 24-hour service is the quickest they can do here.
30:30
So what?
30:31
back way, way behind South Africa.
30:33
I think South African retailers actually run rather well.
30:37
David, what did the indices do today on the JSC, please?
30:41
We closed flat.
30:42
Yeah, the all share, 49 points up, which translates into 0.04 of a percent.
30:50
The top 40 was actually down slightly.
30:52
So the mine is under pressure.
30:54
Gold and platinum mine is under pressure.
30:56
The rest of the market's steady, lifted.
31:01
I
31:05
can't see any major features on the market there.
31:07
I'm just looking at Peru.
31:09
I don't know if you picked that up.
31:11
I never understand this company.
31:13
They came out with a very good quarterly report, which I think pushed them over 100
31:17
Rand again.
31:18
But I think outside of that, Mondi, Sessel, Telcom.
31:22
So I don't know what kept those markets alive, but I think the pressure was on
31:26
the...
31:28
on the metal prices, you know, precious mining and metals.
31:32
And it's a quiet time of year as well with the Northern Hemisphere somewhere in full
31:35
swing, and there was only 21.5 billion on the JSE yesterday, which
31:39
is below the recent average anyway.
31:41
I see today, yeah.
31:43
Thank you very much for your time.
31:45
In fact, under 20 today, yeah, under 20.
31:49
Yeah, that's the influence of overseas traders.
31:51
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time.
31:53
David Shapiro is from Sassam Securities.
31:55
Viv Govender is from Ranswift.
31:57
both from Johannesburg, and that was the 5 o'clock shadow.
32:00
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