Latest / All Mom Does Podcast with Julie Lyles Carr / Off the Hamster Wheel with Christine Gunderson

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Off the Hamster Wheel with Christine Gunderson · All Mom Does Podcast with Julie Lyles Carr

0:01
Speaker 1: Purposely Your Life, God's Purpose Listen at purposely dot com.
0:08
Speaker 1: I think that the rising cost of college affordability issues
0:12
Speaker 1: also have contributed to some of this anxiety that people
0:16
Speaker 1: feel about we have to be doing everything all the
0:18
Speaker 1: time or our kids are going to fall behind.
0:23
Speaker 2: Hey friend, I am so glad you're here. I'm Julie
0:26
Speaker 2: Lyles Carr of the Almando's Podcast, part of the Purposely
0:28
Speaker 2: podcast network. We are rolling around in season nine. Can
0:33
Speaker 2: you believe it? I can't. And when I think about
0:36
Speaker 2: those early days when we started the podcast and the
0:39
Speaker 2: age of some of my youngest kids, I was in
0:42
Speaker 2: the absolute thick of it, not just because of the
0:46
Speaker 2: number of kids, but because of all the activities and
0:49
Speaker 2: things we had going on, all the things we were
0:51
Speaker 2: doing as a family. I have to tell you, being
0:53
Speaker 2: in the season of life I'm in now where I
0:56
Speaker 2: actually have a handful of evenings at home, it's kind
1:01
Speaker 2: of magical. And that's why when an email came across
1:05
Speaker 2: my desk for a new novel that's come out her author.
1:08
Speaker 2: This novel's author has some really interesting things to unpack
1:13
Speaker 2: with us about what mothering is looking like today, what
1:17
Speaker 2: some of the pressures and expectations are that are really
1:21
Speaker 2: kind of unique, a unique season in history. I was like, absolutely,
1:25
Speaker 2: we got to have Christine on, So I can't wait
1:27
Speaker 2: to introduce you to my new friend, Christine Gunderson. Christine,
1:30
Speaker 2: thanks so much for being on the podcast today.
1:32
Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to
1:34
Speaker 1: be here.
1:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Well, give the listener a little understanding of who
1:38
Speaker 2: you are, where you live in the world, what you
1:40
Speaker 2: do all that.
1:41
Speaker 1: Well, my name's Christine Gunderson and I am a mom
1:44
Speaker 1: of three, and I live sort of along the shores
1:47
Speaker 1: of the Potomac River and the Washington, DC suburbs, which
1:50
Speaker 1: is where my first novel, Friends with Secrets is set
1:53
Speaker 1: and where my next novel, Behind White Picket Fences is
1:55
Speaker 1: set also, And it's a fascinating place to live. We
1:58
Speaker 1: have Secret Service, a and FBI agents, government workers, we
2:02
Speaker 1: have all kinds of really interesting people here in the
2:04
Speaker 1: DC suburbs, and that's one of the reasons that my
2:07
Speaker 1: book is set here. But also a lot of moms,
2:10
Speaker 1: a lot of families. And again, I'm a mother of
2:12
Speaker 1: three and motherhood is something I know intimately, and they
2:16
Speaker 1: say you should write what you know, So that is
2:18
Speaker 1: what I do.
2:19
Speaker 2: That's what you did. I lived in d C for
2:21
Speaker 2: a period of time during high school. My dad was
2:23
Speaker 2: the governmental liaison for his company for the Space Shuttle program,
2:27
Speaker 2: and so we were in DC. He worked in Crystal City,
2:29
Speaker 2: we lived in Vienna, and it was Christina absolutely fast.
2:33
Speaker 2: I loved living there. And to your point, I went
2:36
Speaker 2: to school with kids who had such diverse backgrounds in
2:41
Speaker 2: terms of one gal her dad was the ambassador from Pakistan.
2:45
Speaker 2: There were kids who their parents were in various levels
2:47
Speaker 2: of government, elected officials, diplomats, I mean, all kinds of things.
2:52
Speaker 2: And then my dad's work in terms of working with
2:54
Speaker 2: the space Shuttle program. So it was really a fascinating
2:57
Speaker 2: melting pot and for me a very pivotal time. We
3:00
Speaker 2: ended up moving away in my middle of my junior year,
3:04
Speaker 2: but my brother met who is now his wife. They
3:08
Speaker 2: were just little junior high early high school kids when
3:11
Speaker 2: they met and went separate ways, and her dad was
3:13
Speaker 2: in the military, and on and on and then years
3:15
Speaker 2: later circle back and that's where my sister in law
3:19
Speaker 2: comes from. And so many decisions I made, and in
3:22
Speaker 2: terms of the friendships and the connections that we made there,
3:25
Speaker 2: So I love that your novels are set there. Because
3:28
Speaker 2: it's such an important place for me, I can visualize
3:31
Speaker 2: a lot of it. You know, we don't often, Christine,
3:34
Speaker 2: have folks on who have done fiction works. Sometimes that intersection.
3:38
Speaker 2: Even though I am a huge fiction reader and love
3:41
Speaker 2: to read, and I'm an author and a writer all
3:43
Speaker 2: that stuff, all things words, I love it. But a
3:45
Speaker 2: lot of times we can have a book we love
3:49
Speaker 2: and the fiction book we love, but the crossover into
3:51
Speaker 2: really talking about it in terms of how it's tremained
3:54
Speaker 2: in motherhood, the connection might not necessarily be there. I
3:58
Speaker 2: was so delighted when I realized that you were really
4:00
Speaker 2: delving into something that boy I have experienced. I'm sure
4:05
Speaker 2: you have seen a lot of which is the increasing
4:09
Speaker 2: pressure on moms today. Even though we talk a good game, Christine,
4:15
Speaker 2: right we talk about, oh no, we're not looking for
4:16
Speaker 2: perfection anymore, and we're not going to shame people, and
4:19
Speaker 2: we're not going to do this, and we're not going
4:20
Speaker 2: to do that. Still, just the societal expectation of getting
4:26
Speaker 2: our kids to all the things academic, athletic, extracurricular, all
4:31
Speaker 2: the things we think they're supposed to be engaged in.
4:34
Speaker 2: Tell me what started for you a deeper look into
4:39
Speaker 2: that issue and how it began to spin itself into
4:42
Speaker 2: a story about three women who decide, you know, what
4:45
Speaker 2: we're done with all that?
4:47
Speaker 1: So tell me.
4:47
Speaker 2: About the genesis of that, because it is so right
4:51
Speaker 2: in the center of what a lot of women are
4:52
Speaker 2: asking today, which is why are we doing all this stuff?
4:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a topic that is near and dear
5:02
Speaker 1: to my heart and most of my mom friends. And
5:05
Speaker 1: you know, my first book that was inspired by my
5:09
Speaker 1: story where I had had some really interesting jobs in government.
5:13
Speaker 1: I'm a former television anchor and reporter, and I quit
5:17
Speaker 1: all of that to stay home with my kids. And
5:19
Speaker 1: so that transition from being a working person out in
5:22
Speaker 1: the world, being recognized accolades, to being a stay at
5:28
Speaker 1: home mom was a really difficult transition for me. And
5:30
Speaker 1: so I talk about that transition in Friends with Secrets,
5:34
Speaker 1: my first book, but in my second one, behind White
5:37
Speaker 1: pick and Fences, I wanted to take a look at
5:40
Speaker 1: the way that motherhood has changed over time. And I
5:43
Speaker 1: think that those of us of a certain age, those
5:45
Speaker 1: of us who grew up in the seventies and the
5:47
Speaker 1: eighties and the nineties, you know, we remember this childhood
5:52
Speaker 1: where you were out running around riding your bike, and
5:55
Speaker 1: mom was like, come home when the street lights come on,
5:58
Speaker 1: and you come home at dusk, and you'd sit around
6:01
Speaker 1: the big TV in the middle of the living room
6:02
Speaker 1: that was actually a piece of furniture, the cabin with
6:04
Speaker 1: your whole family. Yes, you didn't have a whole lot
6:07
Speaker 1: of homework, and you went to bed, and the activities
6:11
Speaker 1: that you did were not necessarily organized activities. And if
6:14
Speaker 1: you played sports, maybe you didn't actually really seriously start
6:17
Speaker 1: having practices and things until you got a little bit older.
6:20
Speaker 1: And then those of us who were raised in an
6:23
Speaker 1: environment like this and grew up like this had kids
6:27
Speaker 1: of our own, and suddenly it's you know, their soccer
6:29
Speaker 1: practice three times a week and there are games all weekend,
6:32
Speaker 1: and the homework load is something you know, boom, get
6:35
Speaker 1: home from school.
6:36
Speaker 2: Sit down.
6:36
Speaker 1: We've got to get the homework done, because then we
6:38
Speaker 1: have to run at the soccer practice, and then we
6:40
Speaker 1: have to run to scouts, and then we have to
6:41
Speaker 1: run to this, and we have to run to that.
6:43
Speaker 1: And I know that raising my own children, it has
6:47
Speaker 1: often felt like I was sort of not raising children
6:52
Speaker 1: but curating perfect adults. Who would be prepared for this future,
6:57
Speaker 1: which is almost impossible to imagine. And I began to
7:01
Speaker 1: realize that a lot of us were doing all of
7:03
Speaker 1: this running around from a place of love, obviously, but
7:06
Speaker 1: also from a place of fear. And I think that
7:09
Speaker 1: fear comes from the fact that the world has changed
7:12
Speaker 1: so much, especially now in these past few years with
7:15
Speaker 1: the advent of AI, that we no longer even know what,
7:18
Speaker 1: idiots we're supposed to be preparing our children for. Should
7:21
Speaker 1: we tell them to be electricians, should we tell them
7:24
Speaker 1: to get a college education? What exactly does the future
7:27
Speaker 1: look like? And I feel like, as parents, we don't
7:30
Speaker 1: know the answer to that anymore. And that manifests itself
7:34
Speaker 1: in Okay, Well, if we don't know what to prepare for,
7:37
Speaker 1: we're going to prepare for everything. We're going to do everything.
7:39
Speaker 1: We're going to do chess, we're going to do soccer,
7:41
Speaker 1: we're going to do robotics, we're going to do scouts,
7:44
Speaker 1: We're going to be in everything. So that's sort of
7:46
Speaker 1: at the heart of what I wanted to tackle in
7:49
Speaker 1: this book. I wanted to compare motherhood in the past,
7:52
Speaker 1: and so there are parts of this book that are
7:54
Speaker 1: set in nineteen sixty five, and I wanted to talk
7:57
Speaker 1: about motherhood today with these crazy demands on parents and
8:01
Speaker 1: on kids and on our schedules, and and sort of
8:05
Speaker 1: take a look at how we got there, and now
8:06
Speaker 1: that we're here, what do we do about it?
8:09
Speaker 2: Right? I just have to reflect, as you were talking
8:12
Speaker 2: on my upbringing, and the majority of my childhood was
8:17
Speaker 2: spent in California outside of Los Angeles, near Edwards Air
8:20
Speaker 2: Force Space because again my dad spat Sialttle program, and
8:23
Speaker 2: so we were in an aerospace community, and I got
8:26
Speaker 2: a tig risin. These were engaged parents who believed that
8:29
Speaker 2: education was extremely important, and you know, they held our
8:32
Speaker 2: feet to the fire on standards like that. But we
8:35
Speaker 2: ran around and played hide and seek till you know,
8:38
Speaker 2: the sun was just beginning to set behind thetach a piece.
8:41
Speaker 2: I mean it was I did not recognize it at
8:44
Speaker 2: the time, but it really was that childhood that seems
8:48
Speaker 2: to be so missing today that we had a lot
8:53
Speaker 2: of freedom. Now, my parents had a lot of requirements
8:57
Speaker 2: and rules. We were not just running wild by any
9:00
Speaker 2: stretch of imagination, and certainly within the community, if you
9:03
Speaker 2: messed up, somebody's mama was going to tell on you.
9:05
Speaker 2: I mean that was going to happen, but that is
9:08
Speaker 2: so missing today. Even the notion of just are they
9:13
Speaker 2: out playing with the neighborhood kids, that's kind of missing too.
9:16
Speaker 2: I curated a lot of play dates, and I have
9:19
Speaker 2: to say some of that was because in the community
9:22
Speaker 2: in which I was raised, even though everybody didn't have
9:25
Speaker 2: the same kind of faith, walk or something like that,
9:29
Speaker 2: all these parents, for the most part expected us to
9:32
Speaker 2: make decent grades, get our homework done, and if somebody
9:34
Speaker 2: was underage drinking or something like that, people were going
9:37
Speaker 2: to know about it. And yet today, I think part
9:40
Speaker 2: of what happens to us sometimes within community is we
9:42
Speaker 2: don't even really know what the standard is anymore, and
9:46
Speaker 2: therefore we feel like we have to be more involved.
9:48
Speaker 2: We don't know some of the things that might be
9:51
Speaker 2: allowed in someone else's home that would not be okay
9:53
Speaker 2: in our home. And what is our kid going to
9:55
Speaker 2: be exposed to because now content's so readily available, so
9:59
Speaker 2: easy to act, So what are the rules in the
10:02
Speaker 2: neighbor kids home? That kind of a thing. What did
10:04
Speaker 2: you notice about the concept of community, the standard of community,
10:09
Speaker 2: how that all perhaps at one time without trying to
10:13
Speaker 2: be a bucolic and make it sound like it was
10:14
Speaker 2: some kind of utopia. But what has changed in your
10:18
Speaker 2: understanding is you took a look back to like the
10:21
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, moving forward and then to today when it
10:24
Speaker 2: comes to neighborhoods and a support system around.
10:28
Speaker 1: You, A couple of things you know in this yere.
10:31
Speaker 1: I grew up on a farm in rural North Dakota,
10:34
Speaker 1: and so yes, my uprooming was very, very different than
10:37
Speaker 1: the upbringing my kids have here in the Northern Virginia suburbs.
10:41
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think a lot of
10:44
Speaker 1: us notice now is that community aspect might be missing
10:47
Speaker 1: a little bit. There are certainly neighborhoods where you still
10:50
Speaker 1: have neighbors who all know each other and the kids are,
10:53
Speaker 1: you know, playing soccer in the street after dinner. But
10:57
Speaker 1: increasingly we live in places where, for example, the school
11:02
Speaker 1: might not be near the neighborhood and so or you
11:05
Speaker 1: have people going to multiple different schools, so the kids
11:08
Speaker 1: might not know each other from school, they might all
11:10
Speaker 1: be going to different schools. There's a lot more driving,
11:13
Speaker 1: so you can't just ride your bike down to the
11:15
Speaker 1: local ball field right if you're playing a travel sport,
11:18
Speaker 1: it requires you to get into a car and be
11:20
Speaker 1: driven to an activity, and so the kids no longer
11:23
Speaker 1: have this sort of autonomy and the freedom to create
11:26
Speaker 1: their own social lives, because their social life is not
11:28
Speaker 1: just the kid next door. Maybe it's the kid that
11:31
Speaker 1: they know from Scouts, who is different than the kid
11:33
Speaker 1: that they go to school with, who is different than
11:35
Speaker 1: the kid that they played baseball with. And so then
11:36
Speaker 1: parents are getting involved in As you mentioned, then parents
11:40
Speaker 1: are sort of responsible for curating these social lives for
11:42
Speaker 1: their children. And so one of the things that I
11:46
Speaker 1: noticed in the past, and I had a lovely luncheon
11:48
Speaker 1: when I was writing this book. A friend of mine,
11:50
Speaker 1: she is I believe she's eighty four years old, and
11:54
Speaker 1: she's an amazing woman, and she invited some of her
11:57
Speaker 1: friends to have a luncheon with me, and they just
12:00
Speaker 1: talked about what it was life raising their kids in
12:02
Speaker 1: the sixties, what it was life being a working woman
12:05
Speaker 1: in the sixties. And it was really eye opening and fascinating.
12:08
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that I noticed
12:10
Speaker 1: was back in an era where everybody didn't have a
12:13
Speaker 1: car and we weren't constantly driving distances to make things happen.
12:19
Speaker 1: Kids had a lot more autonomy and there was a
12:21
Speaker 1: lot more community. And that's really the heart of this
12:24
Speaker 1: book is these three women decide to drop out of
12:27
Speaker 1: everything for one year and have this experiment, and what
12:31
Speaker 1: ends up happening is they create a community within their
12:35
Speaker 1: cull to sac and everyone becomes involved, the retired people,
12:38
Speaker 1: the moms, everyone sort of creates the kind of community
12:41
Speaker 1: that I think we all long for and remember from
12:45
Speaker 1: our own growing up years. And that's sort of what
12:48
Speaker 1: is at the heart of this book is we can't
12:50
Speaker 1: raise these kids by ourself because it's too hard. We
12:52
Speaker 1: have to have a community of other people around us
12:56
Speaker 1: who are all trying to do the same thing, which
12:58
Speaker 1: is to raise happy, dependent, healthy kids.
13:02
Speaker 2: Right as you were speaking, I thought, you know, as
13:05
Speaker 2: I take a look at the increasing anxiety levels that
13:09
Speaker 2: we see being reported for kids today everywhere from elementary
13:14
Speaker 2: through getting through high school college, just in the increasing
13:18
Speaker 2: social anxiety a lot of these kids have, you know,
13:21
Speaker 2: I have to wonder, Christine, if there's a convergence there
13:24
Speaker 2: where because they haven't really had the range, the freedom
13:29
Speaker 2: of movement to go and create and hang out with
13:32
Speaker 2: other kids in the neighborhood and figure that out. Because
13:36
Speaker 2: we have been so involved in creating those relationships and
13:40
Speaker 2: establishing those relationships and making sure everything was aligning and
13:43
Speaker 2: on and on, they haven't had to exercise that level
13:49
Speaker 2: of personal momentum to go out and make some of
13:52
Speaker 2: those friendships and to think through it because we've removed
13:55
Speaker 2: that element. And I think there's some other elements that
13:57
Speaker 2: get removed as well when we are so closely keeping
14:01
Speaker 2: their schedules just go, go, go go. What are some
14:05
Speaker 2: things that you think might be missing, missed opportunities for
14:09
Speaker 2: our kids when we are scheduled so close to the wire.
14:12
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously an easy one is around my home
14:15
Speaker 2: of origin. If you said you were bored, it was
14:16
Speaker 2: an opportunity to learn various housekeeping skills. You learned to
14:21
Speaker 2: not say that phrase. And we do know that there
14:24
Speaker 2: is actually great value in boredom because it does build creativity.
14:27
Speaker 2: But what are some other things that you notice that
14:30
Speaker 2: perhaps in our zeal to try to provide opportunity and
14:34
Speaker 2: experiences and exposure for our kids, we're actually eliminating some
14:38
Speaker 2: things that happen in the margins, in the free time,
14:42
Speaker 2: in the places where we're not so tightly packed schedule wise,
14:45
Speaker 2: what are we missing?
14:46
Speaker 1: Well, there's two things that come to mind. One is
14:49
Speaker 1: reading and the other is, as you said, boredom. There
14:51
Speaker 1: was a study many years ago where they were it
14:56
Speaker 1: was an engineering firm and they were looking to hire
14:59
Speaker 1: They had a bunch of incheseers that were approaching retirement
15:01
Speaker 1: age and they were looking to hire new engineers to
15:03
Speaker 1: come and replace them. And some of these new engineers
15:07
Speaker 1: that they had on board were having trouble performing some
15:10
Speaker 1: of the tasks that the older engineers were able to do.
15:13
Speaker 1: And so they started because these are incredibly bright, bright
15:17
Speaker 1: people that they were bringing in, and they were sort
15:18
Speaker 1: of mystified by this, and they sorted asking them what
15:22
Speaker 1: kinds of things did you do for fun as a kid?
15:26
Speaker 1: And one of the things that they discovered was that
15:28
Speaker 1: the older engineers had spent a lot of time taking
15:31
Speaker 1: things apart and putting them back together again. They would
15:34
Speaker 1: find an old toaster in the garage and they would
15:37
Speaker 1: take it apart and they would tinker and they would
15:38
Speaker 1: look at it, and that the younger engineers that they
15:42
Speaker 1: were bringing in had not spent time doing activities like
15:48
Speaker 1: that just sort of g I'm bored there's a toaster
15:50
Speaker 1: over here. I wonder how it works. I'm going to
15:52
Speaker 1: take it apart. And so boredom leads to creativity. Boredom
15:57
Speaker 1: gives your chance of mind wander. Boredom gives you a
16:01
Speaker 1: chance to explore and discover and figure out why. And
16:04
Speaker 1: if we are constantly scheduled, we don't have time to
16:07
Speaker 1: be bored, and so that that creativity doesn't really have
16:12
Speaker 1: a chance to develop. And then the other thing, too
16:14
Speaker 1: is reading. And I see this with my own kids.
16:17
Speaker 1: My older son reads a lot more than my younger kids,
16:21
Speaker 1: and you know, the iPhone has a lot to do
16:23
Speaker 1: with that. They are seeing declining literacy levels among kids,
16:28
Speaker 1: and part of it, they think, is obviously the iPhone.
16:32
Speaker 1: You know, if you're it's so much easier to scroll
16:36
Speaker 1: Instagram and look at twenty reels than it is to
16:39
Speaker 1: exert the kind of effort and focus on concentration that
16:42
Speaker 1: you need to read a book. And I find, even
16:43
Speaker 1: as an adult, I am reading fewer books than I
16:47
Speaker 1: did ten years ago. And I'm spending more time reading
16:50
Speaker 1: little articles on my phone or on substack instead of
16:53
Speaker 1: reading actual full novels. And so those two things right there,
17:00
Speaker 1: being really scheduled, not having just open free time, sitting
17:04
Speaker 1: in the backyard staring up with the clouds, being bored
17:06
Speaker 1: and exploring and tinkering and learning new things through that
17:10
Speaker 1: experience and reading. Those are two big differences that I
17:14
Speaker 1: think are going to have some repercussions for us as
17:18
Speaker 1: a society in the future.
17:19
Speaker 2: Now.
17:20
Speaker 1: Granted, when I was trying to set up all the
17:22
Speaker 1: technical stuff for these podcasts, I had to ask my kids.
17:27
Speaker 1: I'm like, guys, I need this adapter thing. This won't
17:29
Speaker 1: plug in. What do I do? And They're like, oh, mob,
17:32
Speaker 1: you know and they immediately helped me. So clearly, my
17:36
Speaker 1: kids know way more about so many things than I
17:39
Speaker 1: ever will. But I do feel that open time and
17:42
Speaker 1: boredom and the ability to explore are commodity that is
17:45
Speaker 1: in short supply in our modern world.
17:51
Speaker 3: You think that you are in the final round of
17:55
Speaker 3: getting all this parenting done. You've got kids who are
17:58
Speaker 3: in high school to think about college, and you're thinking,
18:02
Speaker 3: this is it.
18:03
Speaker 2: I'm Julie Lyles Carr.
18:04
Speaker 3: I am a podcaster and I'm a mom of eight,
18:06
Speaker 3: and here's what I want you to know about George
18:09
Speaker 3: Fox University.
18:10
Speaker 2: It's a different way of doing college. Why Because, yes,
18:14
Speaker 2: it's all.
18:15
Speaker 3: About getting a fantastic degree to set your kid up
18:17
Speaker 3: for their future. They have sixty undergrad programs available at
18:21
Speaker 3: George Fox University. But that's not where the story ends.
18:25
Speaker 3: It's also about equipping them spiritually. If you get out
18:29
Speaker 3: of college with a degree but you don't have a
18:31
Speaker 3: closer relationship with God, that obviously is going to deeply
18:35
Speaker 3: impact what your young.
18:37
Speaker 4: Adult life looks like. So for your kid is I
18:40
Speaker 4: want you to consider what would it mean.
18:42
Speaker 3: For your child to be able to go to George
18:44
Speaker 3: Fox University where ninety three percent of George Fox students
18:49
Speaker 3: say they now have a closer relationship with Jesus.
18:53
Speaker 4: George Fox University is located in the Pacific northwestern Oregon.
18:56
Speaker 4: They have twenty three Division III athletic programs, and one
19:01
Speaker 4: hundred percent of students at George Box University receive financial aid.
19:07
Speaker 4: George Fox University is dedicated to their promise. They want
19:11
Speaker 4: every student to be known.
19:12
Speaker 2: For who God created them to be.
19:14
Speaker 3: So listen, parents, Yeah, you are getting into some of
19:17
Speaker 3: those final laps, but you definitely want to make these
19:21
Speaker 3: last laps count in a big way when it comes
19:24
Speaker 3: to the legacy of your parenting. So be sure and
19:27
Speaker 3: check out for your student. George Fox dot edu. That's
19:32
Speaker 3: George Fox dot edu.
19:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, truly, truly is. And when I think about some
19:40
Speaker 2: of the massive leaps forward that we made technologically, say
19:44
Speaker 2: over the last five hundred years, When I look at
19:47
Speaker 2: some of the time that was available to some people
19:51
Speaker 2: to be able to think through some things and to
19:54
Speaker 2: take us that next little step in that next little step,
19:57
Speaker 2: because they there weren't so many distractions, it's kind of
20:00
Speaker 2: fascinating to go, wow, have we almost painted ourselves into
20:03
Speaker 2: the corner a little bit? Because people would see a problem,
20:06
Speaker 2: they'd try to figure out a better way to fix it,
20:08
Speaker 2: a better way to engage it, something that would make
20:11
Speaker 2: life more efficient. And those things took time. It took experimentation,
20:15
Speaker 2: It took a certain level of stick toitiveness that is
20:19
Speaker 2: really hard for us now because we're so accustomed to
20:22
Speaker 2: being able to flip through them minute we get bored
20:24
Speaker 2: or frustrated. Our brains just really aren't being given what
20:28
Speaker 2: they need in terms of essential vitamins, if you will,
20:30
Speaker 2: to be able to deal with the frustration and the
20:32
Speaker 2: work that it does take to stay with something that's
20:35
Speaker 2: a little bit more difficult. There's a lot that's coming
20:37
Speaker 2: out today now as well about how short form content
20:42
Speaker 2: our brains really love because of those fast dopamine hits,
20:46
Speaker 2: and yet the importance of making sure even if we're
20:49
Speaker 2: going to be on our screens to engage with longer
20:51
Speaker 2: form content where we have to concentrate a little bit longer,
20:54
Speaker 2: we have to hold the thread a little bit longer.
20:56
Speaker 2: And those are just some things where you know, maybe
20:58
Speaker 2: you're not trying to eliminate all screens from your kid's
21:01
Speaker 2: life or from your life, but require a little bit
21:04
Speaker 2: more even through the screen so that you're not falling
21:07
Speaker 2: into some of these more short form content kind of
21:10
Speaker 2: tobaccles that are probably not that great for our brains.
21:15
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you too, one of the things
21:16
Speaker 2: that I love that this novel does, that it hits
21:19
Speaker 2: on you know, I've spent some time and have seen
21:21
Speaker 2: it now multiple times in my own life. This phenomenon
21:24
Speaker 2: that we started identifying a few years ago and now
21:27
Speaker 2: seems to be accelerating what's been termed the walk away
21:30
Speaker 2: wife syndrome, where a woman just has had it up
21:34
Speaker 2: to here. She feels like she's been doing all of
21:37
Speaker 2: it on her own. She feels like there is not
21:39
Speaker 2: connection in the marriage, she feels like the demands of
21:41
Speaker 2: the kids, and on and on and on, and people
21:44
Speaker 2: that you would have never expected who do love their families,
21:47
Speaker 2: but they just hit a certain point of burnout and
21:50
Speaker 2: they make some decisions that are pretty catastrophic to where
21:54
Speaker 2: their family has been, simply from a place of feeling
21:57
Speaker 2: like they can't carry it all anymore. What I love
21:59
Speaker 2: is that your three protagonists they don't do that. They
22:03
Speaker 2: choose a middle ground that really helps identify. Hey, it's
22:08
Speaker 2: the system, it's the hamster wheel as you call it,
22:11
Speaker 2: that is the problem. It's not necessarily all the feelings
22:14
Speaker 2: I'm having about it. It's identifying and get granular on
22:17
Speaker 2: what the real issue is and how do we go
22:20
Speaker 2: to fix that. So there's a lot of hope to
22:24
Speaker 2: me in the fact that, hey, if you are feeling overburdened,
22:28
Speaker 2: if you feel like there are things in your marriage
22:31
Speaker 2: that aren't supportive of the lifestyle that you have started
22:33
Speaker 2: living by the calendar with your kids, if there are activities,
22:36
Speaker 2: who says you have to keep doing it that way?
22:40
Speaker 2: The permission to say we're going to get off this wheel.
22:44
Speaker 2: What made you decide that these women would choose that
22:47
Speaker 2: instead of what we sometimes honestly see celebrated more Christine,
22:50
Speaker 2: which is like walking away from it all. What about
22:53
Speaker 2: them made you go no, No, these are three women
22:56
Speaker 2: who are going to find a true solution, true middle ground,
23:01
Speaker 2: and get to the core of what's happening.
23:04
Speaker 1: I really feel like community is sort of the answer
23:06
Speaker 1: to so many of these problems, and I wanted to
23:09
Speaker 1: write a book where people solve this problem with community.
23:12
Speaker 1: And I also feel so strongly that other moms are
23:16
Speaker 1: sort of what get us through so many of these
23:18
Speaker 1: difficult times. And I wanted to write a book where
23:22
Speaker 1: there are so many books about romantic relationships, but I
23:26
Speaker 1: feel there aren't enough books about female friendship and the
23:28
Speaker 1: strength of female friendship. And so I wanted to write
23:31
Speaker 1: a book where these families band together as families to
23:35
Speaker 1: solve this problem. And I was discussing some ideas with
23:41
Speaker 1: my agent, and she had a friend who had just
23:43
Speaker 1: decided to sort of step off the hamster wheel and
23:46
Speaker 1: start homeschooling, and so we started talking about that. And
23:50
Speaker 1: this is something I had always I've never done it.
23:53
Speaker 1: I've never homeschooled my kids, but it's certainly something I
23:55
Speaker 1: had fantasized about over the years, and so I just started, like,
23:59
Speaker 1: all good ideas start with two words. What if, well,
24:03
Speaker 1: what if you really were going to just say enough,
24:06
Speaker 1: we're dropping out of all of this. What would that
24:09
Speaker 1: look like, What would the consequences be, where would the
24:11
Speaker 1: pushback come from? What would be really difficult about this?
24:14
Speaker 1: And so as we kind of discussed it and I
24:18
Speaker 1: just started writing the book. In some ways, it's sort
24:21
Speaker 1: of wish fulfillment in a way. So I sort of
24:23
Speaker 1: got to try my dropping out moment without actually doing
24:27
Speaker 1: it with my family, but I got to do it
24:29
Speaker 1: on paper. And I do want to say to you,
24:31
Speaker 1: I think that part of what is driving some of
24:33
Speaker 1: this is, you know, I did a lot of research
24:36
Speaker 1: as I was writing this book, and one of the
24:38
Speaker 1: things that has sort of contributed to some of this
24:41
Speaker 1: is the rising cost of college education. As college has
24:44
Speaker 1: gotten more expensive, more and more people have sort of
24:47
Speaker 1: started to feel like, well, scholarships in sports are one
24:53
Speaker 1: way that we could offset the increasing cost of college,
24:56
Speaker 1: which has become very expensive. So then we started to
25:00
Speaker 1: see travel sports and people are saying, well, if I
25:03
Speaker 1: can get my child on the right travel team that's
25:05
Speaker 1: a higher level of play, and if they're really good,
25:09
Speaker 1: then they can play in college and they can get
25:12
Speaker 1: a scholarship, and that's going to help offset the cost
25:14
Speaker 1: of college. And of course, again this is the sort
25:18
Speaker 1: of thing that sort of fuels this. I don't know
25:21
Speaker 1: what the future holds. I don't know how to prepare
25:23
Speaker 1: my child for it. I don't know how to pay
25:24
Speaker 1: for it. But you know what, if we are playing
25:28
Speaker 1: soccer seven days a week and my child is really
25:30
Speaker 1: good at it, then this might be one path to
25:33
Speaker 1: help prepare my child for the future. And so I
25:36
Speaker 1: think that the rising cost of college affordability issues also
25:39
Speaker 1: have contributed to some of this anxiety that people feel
25:43
Speaker 1: about we have to be doing everything all the time
25:46
Speaker 1: or our kids are going to fall behind.
25:48
Speaker 2: Right, And you know, in my first book, I actually
25:51
Speaker 2: talked about some research about and this is not to
25:54
Speaker 2: discourage anybody, but in terms of the very slim odds
26:00
Speaker 2: that your kid's ever going to be the superstar X
26:04
Speaker 2: Y Z of whatever, Which is not to say that
26:07
Speaker 2: you shouldn't put a kid in an activity that they love.
26:10
Speaker 2: And yes, there are those stories of those kids who
26:13
Speaker 2: really go on to create career and it really does
26:17
Speaker 2: pay for college whatever. But you have to be realistic
26:20
Speaker 2: about what the actual statistics are because I certainly have
26:23
Speaker 2: known I myself have fallen victim to you're spending so
26:27
Speaker 2: much money on the travel team or the competition whatever,
26:30
Speaker 2: and all in hopes that maybe there will be some
26:33
Speaker 2: elusive breakthrough scholarship whatever, that you can actually be kind
26:37
Speaker 2: of shooting yourself in the foot unintentionally because you think
26:40
Speaker 2: that this could be a path forward. I find too,
26:44
Speaker 2: that part of the hamster wheel, Christine, is sometimes our
26:48
Speaker 2: own unrealized dreams and aspirations that we want to try
26:52
Speaker 2: to create through our children. What did you notice about
26:55
Speaker 2: that within yourself, within potentially some of these characters within
26:59
Speaker 2: the research that you we're doing when it comes to
27:01
Speaker 2: all the stuff we're trying to accomplish with our kids.
27:04
Speaker 2: You know, we've talked about that fear of the unknown
27:06
Speaker 2: for the future, wanting to make sure they're prepared for everything,
27:08
Speaker 2: the cost of raising kids in college and maybe this
27:11
Speaker 2: could be an avenue And what role do our own
27:14
Speaker 2: unrealized aspirations play when it comes to all the things
27:18
Speaker 2: that we're trying to do with our kids.
27:21
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's such a great question and
27:23
Speaker 1: such a hard question too. I know that, you know.
27:26
Speaker 1: I think as mothers we always do this.
27:28
Speaker 2: Right.
27:28
Speaker 1: If there is something that we love and has meaning
27:31
Speaker 1: for us and has brought us great joy, we want
27:33
Speaker 1: to share that thing with our kids, right. And so
27:36
Speaker 1: whether that thing is Jane Austen, I am always nagging
27:39
Speaker 1: my children to read Jane Austen, and no one has
27:42
Speaker 1: yet to do this, yes, but yes, I'm almost ready
27:45
Speaker 1: to give up on that but haven't quite yet, or
27:48
Speaker 1: musical theater or golf or baseball, or if it's if
27:52
Speaker 1: it's something that we have loved and we feel it
27:55
Speaker 1: has enriched our lives, it is natural, I think, as
27:58
Speaker 1: parents to want to share that with our kids. And
28:02
Speaker 1: I think the problem comes in, obviously, when we are
28:05
Speaker 1: imposing this thing that we love on our children rather
28:08
Speaker 1: than sharing it with our children. And I do think
28:11
Speaker 1: we all probably have seen parents who are sort of
28:14
Speaker 1: a tempting to live through their children's accomplishments. You know,
28:18
Speaker 1: it was a dream that for whatever reason didn't come
28:20
Speaker 1: true for them, but they are determined that this dream
28:23
Speaker 1: will actually come through for their parents. And I think.
28:26
Speaker 1: You know, some of that is just self awareness, and
28:28
Speaker 1: some of that is also the ability to be honest
28:30
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, I you know, I was a fantastic
28:33
Speaker 1: baseball player, but you know, my kid would really rather
28:37
Speaker 1: do track and field. And it's sort of an acceptance
28:40
Speaker 1: that our children are not extensions of ourselves. Our children
28:43
Speaker 1: are their own, unique individual people, with their own interests
28:48
Speaker 1: and their own talents, and we have to give them
28:50
Speaker 1: the freedom to explore the things that they love and
28:53
Speaker 1: that are going to enrich their lives. And those things
28:56
Speaker 1: might be very, very different than the passions that we
28:58
Speaker 1: had when we were there are that we still have
29:01
Speaker 1: as an adult.
29:02
Speaker 2: I had to smile to myself because censure protagonists get
29:05
Speaker 2: off the hamster wheel and move into homeschooling. Initially, I
29:09
Speaker 2: homeschooled all of mine all the way through. And one
29:12
Speaker 2: of the things that is a cautionary tale as well
29:16
Speaker 2: is now homeschooling community has become very robust, which is wonderful,
29:20
Speaker 2: but you can end up back on the same hamster
29:22
Speaker 2: wheel if you're not thoughtful, with a variety of homeschool
29:26
Speaker 2: co ops and conferences and on and on and on
29:29
Speaker 2: and so I don't want ever, the message that's really
29:33
Speaker 2: central to this to get lost, because no matter what
29:36
Speaker 2: we're doing, when we're trying to make these kind of changes, yes,
29:39
Speaker 2: sometimes we need to completely change the environment. And if
29:42
Speaker 2: you are in some kind of system where it's just going, going, going,
29:45
Speaker 2: and the answer might be to take a break. As
29:48
Speaker 2: I said before we started recording Jerry Maguire, you know,
29:51
Speaker 2: like do something completely different and try homeschooling or try
29:54
Speaker 2: something different. And yet then also the caution that we
29:58
Speaker 2: can so easily then turn whatever that next chapter is
30:02
Speaker 2: into the same kind of thing if we're not careful
30:04
Speaker 2: to make sure that we really are staying alert to
30:08
Speaker 2: all of the ways that we can get pulled into
30:11
Speaker 2: things that are more complex, even when we don't intend to,
30:14
Speaker 2: even when we know we've learned a hard lesson. But boys,
30:17
Speaker 2: sometimes we have to learn a lesson a few times.
30:20
Speaker 2: So well, Christine, I can't thank you enough for being
30:23
Speaker 2: on today, and I'm so excited for you for this
30:26
Speaker 2: new novel coming out. Where can the listener go to
30:28
Speaker 2: find the book, find out more of the work you do,
30:30
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff.
30:31
Speaker 1: Well, it comes out June ninth, and it's whoop behind
30:34
Speaker 1: White pick it Fences and you can order it on
30:37
Speaker 1: Amazon or wherever books are sold.
30:39
Speaker 2: Love the cover, it looks fantastic. And do you like
30:42
Speaker 2: for people to come over and hang out with you
30:44
Speaker 2: on social media? Are there some places like that? Yeah,
30:45
Speaker 2: we like to interact.
30:46
Speaker 1: That would be awesome. I have a newsletter called Notes
30:50
Speaker 1: on Love and Laundry where I talk about motherhood and
30:53
Speaker 1: some of these issues, and you can find that on substack,
30:55
Speaker 1: or you can follow me on Instagram or Facebook. I'm
30:58
Speaker 1: at Christine Gunderson.
31:00
Speaker 2: Fantastic. All righty, well, thank you so much for being
31:03
Speaker 2: on today. I really appreciate this conversation. And I know
31:06
Speaker 2: there are so many women who are trying to figure
31:08
Speaker 2: it all out, beating themselves up, thinking if they just
31:11
Speaker 2: had more grit, if they just had more caffeine. And
31:13
Speaker 2: maybe it's not a matter of more. Maybe it's about
31:16
Speaker 2: subtracting some things that aren't working for your family. So
31:19
Speaker 2: thank you so much for this insightful look at it.
31:21
Speaker 2: This parable about how to carry forward in a way
31:24
Speaker 2: that maybe is better for the family. I really appreciate
31:26
Speaker 2: your time and your creativity.
31:28
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much.
31:29
Speaker 2: This was great. Absolutely all right, friends, you know what
31:32
Speaker 2: to do you're going to want to go find Christine's
31:34
Speaker 2: stuff and or social media and all the things substack
31:37
Speaker 2: all of it. So go over the show notes because
31:39
Speaker 2: that's where Rebecca puts all that great information every week
31:42
Speaker 2: links it out the whole thing. So go check it out.
31:44
Speaker 2: Do meet a solid Please please subscribe to the podcast.
31:48
Speaker 2: Grab this link and send it to a friend who
31:50
Speaker 2: really would benefit from hearing today's guest and what it
31:54
Speaker 2: means to get off the hamster wheel with all the
31:56
Speaker 2: extracurricular stuff and all the busy to get back to
31:58
Speaker 2: really the good stuff. So be sure and do that.
32:01
Speaker 2: Send that link, give us a like five star review,
32:03
Speaker 2: leave a comment. We love it when you do that.
32:05
Speaker 2: I love it too when you come over and hang
32:06
Speaker 2: out with me on social media. I'm usually over on Instagram.
32:09
Speaker 2: That's great. Actually hang out Juli Lyles car and also
32:12
Speaker 2: All mom Does All Mom Does on Instagram, All mom
32:15
Speaker 2: Does dot com. You know what it is. It's a
32:17
Speaker 2: fantastic community of women just like you, trying to figure
32:19
Speaker 2: out all the same stuff about family, about faith, about work,
32:23
Speaker 2: about marriage, all of it. So be sure and check
32:25
Speaker 2: out All things All Mom Does and I will see
32:27
Speaker 2: you next time on the Alman does podcast