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Accessibility for All · Why We Do What We Do

0:03
Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we do. Welcome
0:16
Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do. I am your
0:19
Speaker 1: commodating host, Abraham.
0:20
Speaker 2: And I'm your universally accessible host.
0:23
Speaker 1: Sheene Nice. We are a psychology podcast. We talk about
0:27
Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do. And
0:31
Speaker 1: we're currently in a series of episodes on accessibility and disability,
0:37
Speaker 1: and so that's our topic that we're going to be
0:39
Speaker 1: covering for a few weeks. It should get us right
0:42
Speaker 1: about to the end of the year or so. We'll
0:44
Speaker 1: still do our year in review episode because nobody listens
0:48
Speaker 1: to podcasts on New Year's Eve, and so we'll just
0:52
Speaker 1: put out one where we just talk about what we've
0:54
Speaker 1: talked about and then everyone will ignore it and we'll
0:56
Speaker 1: keep on talking about disability afterward maybe or something. I
0:59
Speaker 1: don't know, but we'll figure it out when we get there. Yeah,
1:01
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's what we're doing. So we're continuing on
1:04
Speaker 1: with that today, which is November nineteenth at the time
1:07
Speaker 1: that this publishes, and that is carbonated Beverage with caffeine.
1:11
Speaker 2: Day, which is like, I don't know, Bark's routier, Yeah, basically, yeah,
1:16
Speaker 2: which rules I mean, I guess that's like Coca Cola
1:18
Speaker 2: and Mountain doing all this stuff too. Anyway, It's an
1:20
Speaker 2: Equal Opportunity Day, which I really like.
1:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good. It's have a bad day day. There
1:28
Speaker 1: are some people for which that could be okay.
1:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, so far, it's working for the president. It's International
1:33
Speaker 2: Men's Day.
1:34
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think every day is that day.
1:37
Speaker 2: It seems like it. I mean it's uh, I think
1:39
Speaker 2: it's because we're in November, so it's.
1:41
Speaker 1: Like, oh, maybe like prostate, it's like mental health.
1:43
Speaker 2: It's like November and like all that stuff, like you know,
1:46
Speaker 2: no shave November, which I haven't shaved in like fifteen years.
1:50
Speaker 1: So you know, you're really doing you're keeping it. You're
1:53
Speaker 1: doing it well.
1:54
Speaker 2: Dude, decemb Beard Januar Harry, I can't stop.
2:00
Speaker 1: All right. Well, it is National blow Bagpipes Day. Cool who.
2:11
Speaker 2: It's a National camp Day.
2:14
Speaker 1: National Education Support Professional to Day. That's very good. I
2:18
Speaker 1: appreciate that.
2:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. It's also Abraham's least favorite day
2:23
Speaker 2: of the year. It's Play Monopoly Day.
2:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was gonna say, Nope, It's Rocky and Bullwinkle Day.
2:31
Speaker 2: I like that. It is Women's Entrepreneurship.
2:35
Speaker 1: Day on Men's International Men's Day it is, I know
2:40
Speaker 1: it is. Anyway, It's World Toilet Day.
2:47
Speaker 2: Fair yep. Also in the toilet American Education Week.
2:52
Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah, I love that those two are back to back. Yeah.
2:55
Speaker 1: It is International Fraud Awareness Week. Okay, So we have
3:01
Speaker 1: a president and he's a fraud.
3:04
Speaker 2: Yeah. I say that's what we're seeming to learn. I
3:07
Speaker 2: mean some of us are learning that we some of
3:09
Speaker 2: us have known for a while.
3:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean he kind of told us a long
3:12
Speaker 1: time ago, over and over again. Yeah, and not really
3:15
Speaker 1: ambiguous terms.
3:16
Speaker 2: Pretty explicitly. Yeah. It is international or sort of justice week.
3:20
Speaker 1: We've talked about that in some capacity, but that is
3:22
Speaker 1: an interesting topic.
3:23
Speaker 2: It is one of my favorites.
3:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, World Anti Microbial Awareness Week.
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Speaker 2: Good. Okay, Yeah, that's fun.
3:30
Speaker 1: All right. Well those are holidays, and they're holidays related
3:32
Speaker 1: to the day on which you're listening to this episode,
3:35
Speaker 1: and that's cool. And I didn't say before, but I'm
3:37
Speaker 1: going to say now that if you're joining us for
3:39
Speaker 1: the first time, welcome. We don't just talk about holidays.
3:41
Speaker 1: We talk about psychology things. And if you enjoy what
3:44
Speaker 1: you hear in this episode, then we would appreciate it.
3:47
Speaker 1: If you would continue coming back and listening to more episodes,
3:49
Speaker 1: and you can always support us in some ways. If
3:52
Speaker 1: you're a returning listener, then welcome back. I'm glad that
3:54
Speaker 1: you continue to seek us out. If you're either of
3:57
Speaker 1: those two people and you have not already done so,
3:59
Speaker 1: you can support us by life in subscribing, leaving a
4:01
Speaker 1: rating and review, joining us on Patreon, telling a friend.
4:04
Speaker 1: I'll talk more about the ways that you can help
4:06
Speaker 1: us out at the end of this discussion. But today
4:10
Speaker 1: we're taking on a topic that I feel like is
4:13
Speaker 1: going to be very interesting because it was something I
4:16
Speaker 1: learned a lot about fairly recently, and it's one of
4:19
Speaker 1: those things where you hear it and I think you
4:22
Speaker 1: might think, well, duh. And also I didn't know that
4:27
Speaker 1: that was the thing that people were talking about, but
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Speaker 1: it is. And that is essentially what's called universal design principles,
4:35
Speaker 1: and we're going to get into what all those things mean.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And as we came on back this, I think
4:39
Speaker 2: people have a lot of misconceptions or apprehensions about planning
4:42
Speaker 2: for accessibility to accommodate impairments. They think it seems like
4:46
Speaker 2: it's a lot of extra work, or it's going to
4:49
Speaker 2: take a lot of resources. But the thing is, accessibility
4:52
Speaker 2: for impairments supports not only the people with the impairments,
4:55
Speaker 2: but it actually supports everyone. It makes the world more accessible,
4:58
Speaker 2: and it benefits you listener, even if you don't have
5:01
Speaker 2: an impairment, and it creates greater opportunities for inclusion of
5:04
Speaker 2: people with disabilities. It's a win win win, win win
5:08
Speaker 2: win situation for everybody involved.
5:11
Speaker 1: That almost sounded like on cartoons when someone's they depict snoring, like.
5:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, that's my favorite, my favorite depiction of snoring.
5:24
Speaker 1: But that is the level of winning we're dealing with here.
5:26
Speaker 1: So yes, we are going to discuss something as as
5:29
Speaker 1: I just mentioned called universal design principles and accessibility practices
5:34
Speaker 1: that you can start using immediately if you're someone who
5:38
Speaker 1: makes stuff. And also you can just sort of go
5:41
Speaker 1: out in the world and notice where it exists, because
5:43
Speaker 1: you will find it in many places, and you will
5:45
Speaker 1: also start to notice where it doesn't exist. But we'll
5:48
Speaker 1: also talk about considerations for the rollout of more intensive
5:52
Speaker 1: accommodations that do take more time and effort to implement.
5:55
Speaker 1: But we're largely going to talk about like how to
5:58
Speaker 1: universally approach the idea.
6:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the content about these principles, not the
6:04
Speaker 2: commentary about them, but the content specifically is basically plagiarized
6:07
Speaker 2: from the Nevada Center for Excellence and Disabilities at the
6:10
Speaker 2: University of Nevada, a reno who gave us no permission
6:13
Speaker 2: whatsoever to use this and cannot be held responsible for
6:16
Speaker 2: anything that we say. But we do want to make
6:18
Speaker 2: sure we give them credit for at least the principles
6:20
Speaker 2: and the concepts here.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, their slides are available. I ripped them off
6:25
Speaker 1: and they are They're good, So I used them and
6:30
Speaker 1: just wanted to let them know. I mean, I do
6:32
Speaker 1: think they make them freely available anyway, and they are
6:35
Speaker 1: based on other people's work, but I took a lot
6:38
Speaker 1: of this from that. Yeah, they all didn't have those slides,
6:40
Speaker 1: and so now you get the content of those slides,
6:41
Speaker 1: and I think mostly they would approve. Yes, But there
6:45
Speaker 1: is an important caveat here. As we're talking through this,
6:48
Speaker 1: technology changes very quickly, and even a lot of the
6:51
Speaker 1: specific recommendations we make those might need to change soon
6:56
Speaker 1: after publishing, or even between recording and publishing, because things
7:00
Speaker 1: change so quickly. We've all been talking about AI for
7:04
Speaker 1: like a couple of years now, but it's worth remembering that,
7:07
Speaker 1: like the level of AI that we're at right now
7:10
Speaker 1: did not exist three years ago, Like it's that recent, right,
7:14
Speaker 1: and even still that has also made accessibility much much
7:20
Speaker 1: better than it was, Like it's gotten the tools they
7:24
Speaker 1: they immediately started using this for to create more accessible
7:27
Speaker 1: content were really really impressive. Like there was stuff that
7:30
Speaker 1: three years ago we would have said, this is a
7:32
Speaker 1: tool you can use, it's not very good, you should
7:34
Speaker 1: probably go with this other service. And now AI has
7:37
Speaker 1: completely replaced both of those things. Right. All that is
7:40
Speaker 1: to say, technology moves very fast.
7:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, so I think we can start to get
7:44
Speaker 2: into it because we've got so much to cover. We
7:46
Speaker 2: want to make sure that you have all the information
7:48
Speaker 2: for sure. We're gonna start with a couple of notes
7:50
Speaker 2: about inclusion just to kind of like begin so even
7:53
Speaker 2: beyond the tangible benefits and extremely few drawbacks, it is
7:56
Speaker 2: the right thing to do. It's a moral thing. It's
7:59
Speaker 2: a sign of a great society that we're taking care
8:02
Speaker 2: of as many people as we can and as many
8:03
Speaker 2: circumstances as we can. Inclusions should lead to increased participation
8:07
Speaker 2: in socially expected life roles and activities such as being
8:11
Speaker 2: a student, being a worker, a friend, a community member,
8:13
Speaker 2: a patient, a spouse, and or a parent.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it just it creates opportunities for people
8:18
Speaker 1: to participate fully in all the ways that they might participate.
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Speaker 1: And barriers to inclusion include things like attitudes that others
8:27
Speaker 1: have about disability on their communication barriers, physical barriers, policy barriers,
8:33
Speaker 1: programmatic barriers, social barriers, and transportation barriers. There's a lot
8:38
Speaker 1: of things out there to overcome, and mostly because those
8:42
Speaker 1: things were designed without inclusion in mind, and so they
8:46
Speaker 1: only accommodated a relatively narrow band of people. And there's
8:50
Speaker 1: no reason for that, Like there are people who don't
8:52
Speaker 1: have impairments who can't access those things because they were
8:57
Speaker 1: just designed in such a way that they didn't allow
8:59
Speaker 1: for people who are built a little differently than like
9:02
Speaker 1: the average or the person who designed those things. So
9:05
Speaker 1: there are a lot of different barriers to be thinking
9:07
Speaker 1: about as we're working toward inclusion.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, there are sometimes unintended or intended
9:13
Speaker 2: things that we do the further exclude people with impairments. So,
9:16
Speaker 2: for instance, microphones in public spaces are tools that help
9:20
Speaker 2: enable accessibility. You might be talking to a group of
9:22
Speaker 2: people and decide that you don't want to use the
9:24
Speaker 2: microphone because you'd rather move around while talking, and now
9:27
Speaker 2: someone who struggles to hear, or even just people in
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Speaker 2: the back either miss what's being said, or they have
9:32
Speaker 2: to single themselves out as being an inconvenience by requesting
9:35
Speaker 2: that the speaker use the microphone. Something that simple can
9:37
Speaker 2: cause many problems.
9:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's just, you know, considering those sorts of things.
9:41
Speaker 1: You know, someone who depends on that technology that exists
9:44
Speaker 1: now and it didn't always but it does now, so
9:47
Speaker 1: we try and do our best. You know, they're they're
9:49
Speaker 1: the one i'd be like, hold on, can you please
9:51
Speaker 1: say that again? Or can you please use the microphone?
9:53
Speaker 1: And then that person that sort of calls that person
9:56
Speaker 1: out for making that request, where you could instead just
9:59
Speaker 1: not put anyone in that position and use the microphone,
10:02
Speaker 1: because that's gonna be the most inclusive way to have
10:05
Speaker 1: people participate in that thing. Being inclusive also means that
10:09
Speaker 1: we don't draw extra attention to people's impairments. We don't
10:12
Speaker 1: single them out or make big hay out of the
10:14
Speaker 1: fact that they may need support or some supports to participate,
10:19
Speaker 1: and if we plan for accessibility, then these special requests
10:22
Speaker 1: aren't needed. It kind of goes back to the episode
10:25
Speaker 1: we talked about where when we were doing the models
10:29
Speaker 1: of disability that if we just make things more accessible
10:33
Speaker 1: more generally, then the barriers caused by materials and design
10:41
Speaker 1: they become invisible to the noticeability of an impairment, like
10:46
Speaker 1: someone in a wheelchair or a cane, or a walker,
10:49
Speaker 1: or someone who they just have their arms fold they're
10:52
Speaker 1: pushing a stroller, like people who have visual impairments are
10:55
Speaker 1: hearing impairments. If we set up systems that accommodate those things,
10:58
Speaker 1: we don't even notice that those people are just navigating
11:01
Speaker 1: that system perfectly well. And I think you know, one
11:04
Speaker 1: of the things I said in there is I said,
11:05
Speaker 1: it makes disability disappear. And I want to be clear,
11:09
Speaker 1: I think we said this in that episode. But what
11:11
Speaker 1: I meant by that is that in the language that
11:14
Speaker 1: was sort of adopted by the social model, where disability
11:18
Speaker 1: is the barrier caused by society and impairment is what
11:21
Speaker 1: that person shows up with, Like the people have a
11:25
Speaker 1: lot of community and desire to I think be a
11:29
Speaker 1: part of the communities that their impairment has. So like
11:32
Speaker 1: if they're in the deaf community or the blind community, like,
11:34
Speaker 1: that's not that there's something wrong with them. So it
11:37
Speaker 1: doesn't make impairment disappear, but it makes the barriers for
11:40
Speaker 1: that impairment disappear, where it no longer becomes obvious that
11:43
Speaker 1: someone needs additional supports because everything is just inclusive.
11:46
Speaker 2: That makes sense, Yeah, absolutely makes perfect sense. You know,
11:50
Speaker 2: it doesn't make any sense though, ads. Ads.
12:00
Speaker 1: All right, we are back. So we were talking about
12:02
Speaker 1: considerations around inclusion and why that's important and what it
12:05
Speaker 1: means to be like planning for accessibility a little bit.
12:08
Speaker 1: But as I said, this episode, the really the primary
12:11
Speaker 1: goal of this episode is to discuss and describe the
12:14
Speaker 1: universal design principles.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. So universal design principles were developed at the Center
12:19
Speaker 2: for Universal Design at North Carolina State University. Go Wolfpack,
12:23
Speaker 2: which apparently is also you and our sports team, which
12:25
Speaker 2: also do you have wolves there?
12:27
Speaker 1: I don't know.
12:28
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's close enough, I guess, so they have
12:32
Speaker 2: on their website.
12:32
Speaker 1: Quote.
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Speaker 2: The Center for Universal Design was a national research, information
12:36
Speaker 2: and technical assistance center at North Carolina State University that evaluated,
12:40
Speaker 2: developed in promoted universal design in housing, public and commercial facilities,
12:45
Speaker 2: and related products. End quote.
12:47
Speaker 1: You may have noticed that that was also written in
12:48
Speaker 1: past tense, because they also have on their website quote
12:52
Speaker 1: the Center for Universal Design is currently not active due
12:55
Speaker 1: to funding challenges. End quote. Everyone keeps dancing around the
12:59
Speaker 1: pathetic tipler running our country into the grave. Who is
13:02
Speaker 1: one hundred percent at fault here? We don't have to
13:06
Speaker 1: pretend that things didn't happen because of him and his
13:09
Speaker 1: band of dips. This is what happened. It's unambiguous, it
13:13
Speaker 1: is empirical facts. Trump and the people who put him
13:16
Speaker 1: into power have cked over everyone else in the country
13:19
Speaker 1: again and again. And this is just one more casualty
13:21
Speaker 1: on the heap of their glaring incompetence.
13:24
Speaker 2: So thanks, yeah, yeah, it's just another thing in the
13:28
Speaker 2: wide span of things that he's done that's just made
13:31
Speaker 2: everybody miserable for no reason other than his own cruelty. So, anyway,
13:37
Speaker 2: around nineteen ninety seven, when the Offsprings xtand the Ombrea
13:41
Speaker 2: came out, you have Nimrod from Green Day some really
13:43
Speaker 2: good records that year.
13:45
Speaker 1: I feel like enema of the State was right around there.
13:47
Speaker 2: It was, and yes it was. It was right around
13:49
Speaker 2: that time. Actually, I think nineteen ninety seven was about
13:52
Speaker 2: Dude Ranch ninety six ninety seven, Oh.
13:54
Speaker 1: Was it so okay?
13:56
Speaker 2: Yeah? Either way, great time, great time for music. This
13:58
Speaker 2: was the punk Reserve was occurring over the last three years.
14:02
Speaker 2: We started to dip our toes into the Latin American
14:06
Speaker 2: boom that happened, and when we got j Lo and
14:09
Speaker 2: Ricky Martin and all those things, and the remember swing
14:12
Speaker 2: was like really big for a little bit. What a
14:13
Speaker 2: strange time, I do. Yeah, the nineties were weird anyway.
14:17
Speaker 2: Around nineteen ninety seven, the CFUD developed seven design principles
14:21
Speaker 2: for creating materials that are usable by the largest possible audience.
14:24
Speaker 2: So someone who's trying to run a business would be
14:26
Speaker 2: wise to consider these. This will help that business and
14:29
Speaker 2: help those organizations access as many people as possible and
14:32
Speaker 2: allow them to access their services, their products, their spaces
14:35
Speaker 2: and all that.
14:36
Speaker 1: Just to make sure we're clearing our acronyms here, because
14:39
Speaker 1: that can be another thing that can be tough to follow.
14:41
Speaker 1: CFUD as Center for Universal Design. Yes, right, we'll go
14:44
Speaker 1: over all of the design principles in detail, but I
14:47
Speaker 1: just want to list them first so that you have
14:49
Speaker 1: the organization here. So, here are the seven principles that
14:52
Speaker 1: they came up with that are things to keep in
14:55
Speaker 1: mind when developing materials and building things to support accessibility
14:59
Speaker 1: for the broadest number of possible users. They are equitable use,
15:04
Speaker 1: perceptible information, tolerance for error, low physical effort, size and space, simplicity,
15:12
Speaker 1: and intuitive use and flexibility in use.
15:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we're gonna spend a lot of time
15:17
Speaker 2: on those. Now, you could hear this list and it
15:19
Speaker 2: would be understandable to think that these were principles developed
15:22
Speaker 2: by Apple or some other software developer if we hadn't
15:24
Speaker 2: already told you what they were, and you'd be kind
15:27
Speaker 2: of correct, because Apple, Nike, Google, Microsoft, Tender, and Oxo
15:31
Speaker 2: are all just a few of the major companies who
15:33
Speaker 2: have employed the use of universal design principles. This is
15:36
Speaker 2: part of, if not most of, or even all of
15:39
Speaker 2: the reason your phone is so easy to use. So
15:42
Speaker 2: thanks universal design principles exactly.
15:45
Speaker 1: So let's take them in order. We'll go through that
15:47
Speaker 1: list again, but this time we're going to take each
15:50
Speaker 1: one and we want to describe what it means and
15:52
Speaker 1: how to apply it. The first one you may remember
15:54
Speaker 1: because there's a weird effect where we tend to remember
15:57
Speaker 1: the beginning and ends of lists and not so much
15:59
Speaker 1: the middle, which is just a rough tendency and has
16:02
Speaker 1: it's not actually a law or anything, but anyway, the
16:05
Speaker 1: first one is equitable use. Equitable use means that the
16:09
Speaker 1: design of materials is arranged to be useful and marketable
16:12
Speaker 1: to people with diverse abilities.
16:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so the guidelines for this are to A
16:18
Speaker 2: provide the same means of use for all users, identical
16:21
Speaker 2: wherever possible, equivalent when not. B avoid segregating or stigmatizing
16:26
Speaker 2: any users, which means avoid bringing unassary attention to the
16:29
Speaker 2: person with the impairment see provisions for Privacy, security, and safety.
16:34
Speaker 2: Is equally available to all users. And d to make
16:37
Speaker 2: the design appealing to all users. So examples include things
16:41
Speaker 2: like automatic doors, desks and tables that can raise or lower,
16:45
Speaker 2: and close captioning, among many other things. You and I
16:47
Speaker 2: were talking about close captioning and like subtitles and stuff
16:50
Speaker 2: and how like, yeah, super useful they are. Yeah, and
16:53
Speaker 2: we don't have like any identified impairments that would need that,
16:56
Speaker 2: but like we really love, like I love a good subtitle.
17:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's just it just makes it so like,
17:03
Speaker 1: I mean, there are I think we talked about this before,
17:05
Speaker 1: but when the conversation gets really quiet all of a
17:08
Speaker 1: sudden on the TV and they're like talking really low,
17:11
Speaker 1: or they're talking kind of fast, or they're talking over noise,
17:15
Speaker 1: like it can be hard to hear. And like I
17:18
Speaker 1: think you could hear that and say, like they should
17:20
Speaker 1: account for that in the movies, and that's true. But
17:23
Speaker 1: like having this, having the closed captioning means you can
17:26
Speaker 1: get access to that anyway. It's pretty cool and really
17:29
Speaker 1: important feature.
17:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
17:31
Speaker 1: So. The second principle is called perceptible information, and this
17:35
Speaker 1: design communicates necessary information effectively to the users, regardless of
17:41
Speaker 1: ambient conditions or the user's sensory abilities.
17:46
Speaker 2: That is, we make it so that anyone can get
17:49
Speaker 2: the information however they get information.
17:52
Speaker 1: So the ways to do this, and this is sort
17:54
Speaker 1: of the recommendations include using different formats for communications. So
17:58
Speaker 1: if you have to get a message.
17:59
Speaker 3: Out, use pictures, use text, use verbal, use tactile, maybe
18:03
Speaker 3: braille or something like that, use auditory, and you can
18:07
Speaker 3: also make all of them available and then give the
18:09
Speaker 3: user a choice for their preference for how they receive
18:13
Speaker 3: that to be like, we're gonna just present this in
18:15
Speaker 3: all formats, whichever format you would like to have this in,
18:18
Speaker 3: like you get to choose, then you'll get it that way.
18:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can make it redundant. So basically that just
18:23
Speaker 2: means if you miss it the first time, you can
18:24
Speaker 2: get it another way or another time that is communicated,
18:28
Speaker 2: you can get it in a different form or modality, like,
18:30
Speaker 2: but just make it so that there's lots of opportunities
18:32
Speaker 2: to get this information, and.
18:34
Speaker 1: Sure there's adequate contrast between the essential information and it's
18:38
Speaker 1: sort of surrounding content and information so that you can
18:42
Speaker 1: tell like what's important, what the part where they need
18:44
Speaker 1: to attend to and maximize the legibility of essential information,
18:49
Speaker 1: which I mean that's basically what you're doing with the
18:50
Speaker 1: contrast is you want that to be as clear and
18:53
Speaker 1: easy to understand as possible, and I mean that could
18:57
Speaker 1: mean auditory as well, that you want to hear that
19:00
Speaker 1: and nothing else. It's one of the reasons that makes
19:02
Speaker 1: sense to have justin cut out the many flubs that
19:05
Speaker 1: I make when I talk, so that you can have
19:08
Speaker 1: a coherent message and not just a series of sounds.
19:11
Speaker 2: Well, I mean earlier you said participant, and I hope
19:13
Speaker 2: that heat caught that too. So callbacks, baby, we love,
19:21
Speaker 2: we love callbacks on this show. We also want to
19:24
Speaker 2: make sure that we differentiate elements in ways that can
19:26
Speaker 2: be described, like we want to make it easy to
19:29
Speaker 2: give instructions or directions, and we want to plan for
19:31
Speaker 2: compatibility with the variety of techniques or devices used with
19:34
Speaker 2: for bye people with sensory limitations. So like I had
19:37
Speaker 2: a for a little bit when I was running my
19:39
Speaker 2: publishing company, there was an opportunity for me to go
19:42
Speaker 2: in and edit my website to fit mobile users so
19:45
Speaker 2: that the information was really clear and that there were
19:48
Speaker 2: no errors and there's no like formatting issues. Like it
19:50
Speaker 2: was one of those things where you had the opportunity
19:52
Speaker 2: to kind of like be able to make it accessible
19:54
Speaker 2: across multiple multiple devices.
19:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it's wild. There are still websites out there
19:58
Speaker 1: that are not like design to accommodate mobile devices still. Yeah,
20:03
Speaker 1: and so you go on then you like have to
20:04
Speaker 1: like zoom in and scroll around and it's like hard
20:06
Speaker 1: to use. There's not very many, but they do exist.
20:09
Speaker 1: I still run into them periodically.
20:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild.
20:12
Speaker 1: But as an example of this, Like, let's consider you're
20:15
Speaker 1: at an airport. If you've ever been to an airport,
20:17
Speaker 1: it is one of the most chaotic environments ever. When
20:21
Speaker 1: they make an announcement, they will do so over the
20:24
Speaker 1: loud speakers, like over the PA system, and they're competing
20:28
Speaker 1: with an incredible cacophony of other sounds. So it's a
20:32
Speaker 1: really good idea to also put the information on monitors
20:36
Speaker 1: to send messages to people through apps or texting to
20:39
Speaker 1: people's phones, maybe if they need to put up like
20:42
Speaker 1: signs or something, but whatever it is, like have multiple
20:46
Speaker 1: ways that people can access that. Both because like people
20:50
Speaker 1: with hearing impairments might not be able to detect that
20:53
Speaker 1: that's what's going on, and also because like it's a
20:56
Speaker 1: crazy environment that's super hard to determine what's happening over
21:00
Speaker 1: those speakers. Sometimes, even if it's not that loud, like
21:03
Speaker 1: the speakers can echo really badly and it's hard to
21:06
Speaker 1: hear the message. So like just present it in multiple
21:09
Speaker 1: formats and then whatever people, it doesn't matter what their
21:12
Speaker 1: deal is, like, they will be more likely to get
21:14
Speaker 1: that information if there's multiple ways that they could be
21:17
Speaker 1: receiving it.
21:18
Speaker 2: Right, So, like, as an example, I'm sure we've all
21:20
Speaker 2: heard this. We've been to the airport and you've heard
21:22
Speaker 2: something like this right where it's like, oh, do you
21:29
Speaker 2: know what I said?
21:30
Speaker 1: I think you said it's time to transition to an ad.
21:34
Speaker 2: I did. I did.
21:43
Speaker 1: We are back. We have listed two of the seven
21:46
Speaker 1: design principles and talked through them, so we're moving on
21:49
Speaker 1: to the third.
21:50
Speaker 2: All right, so we're gonna talk about tolerance for error.
21:54
Speaker 2: The purpose of this principle is to minimize hazards and
21:57
Speaker 2: adverse consequences of accidental or unintended actions.
22:02
Speaker 1: Yes, and that is what we mean by this is
22:04
Speaker 1: plan to have fail safes or like other things that
22:09
Speaker 1: prevent terrible outcomes from happening. Should the user engage with it,
22:14
Speaker 1: if it shouldn't break down, or the user use it
22:16
Speaker 1: in a way that it's not intended. So make it
22:18
Speaker 1: so that mistakes are not catastrophic. You shouldn't be able
22:22
Speaker 1: to accidentally burn the place down if you flip the
22:25
Speaker 1: wrong switch. You can specifically engineer failure points so that
22:30
Speaker 1: if you have a thing that will fail, you know
22:33
Speaker 1: how and where it will fail and what to do
22:35
Speaker 1: when it does. But otherwise just try and make it
22:38
Speaker 1: like it reminds me of on the movie The Emperor's
22:41
Speaker 1: New Groove. She the early part she flips the lever
22:45
Speaker 1: and like falls into a pit of like l of alligators,
22:49
Speaker 1: and then she said, why do we even have that lever?
22:53
Speaker 1: And like that's kind of the idea is like, yeah,
22:55
Speaker 1: don't put a giant kill switch where everybody can reach it,
22:58
Speaker 1: Like it shouldn't be able to fail that spectacularly, that easily.
23:03
Speaker 1: And that's the idea here, is like make it so
23:05
Speaker 1: that if it's going to fail. Sometimes that's a good
23:08
Speaker 1: idea to like engineer a weak point so you know
23:11
Speaker 1: that where the failure is going to occur and you
23:12
Speaker 1: can predict it and plan for it. And if it's
23:15
Speaker 1: not going to fail due to anything like that, but
23:18
Speaker 1: like it might break down or someone might use it incorrectly,
23:21
Speaker 1: make it so that, like if they do fail, like
23:23
Speaker 1: it's not going to kill them or like everyone else
23:25
Speaker 1: around them or cause serious harm or problems.
23:28
Speaker 2: Right, And so to build in this type of thing
23:31
Speaker 2: tolerance for error. First, you're going to make elements to
23:34
Speaker 2: reduce as much as possible the danger that can come
23:37
Speaker 2: from the misuse of the systems. When there hazardous materials,
23:40
Speaker 2: if you can't avoid using them in the first place.
23:42
Speaker 2: Isolate or shield does materials as much as possible. Nobody
23:45
Speaker 2: wants to be concerned that battery acid was accidentally leaching
23:48
Speaker 2: into their food. Like that doesn't that you know, that
23:51
Speaker 2: seems like a thing that we want to try to avoid.
23:53
Speaker 1: Maybe Elon Musk wants that, but most of us don't
23:55
Speaker 1: want that.
23:56
Speaker 2: I mean, RFK for sure is fine with it.
23:58
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's p's possibly part of the problem. Maybe
24:00
Speaker 1: even how he was born.
24:03
Speaker 2: It's just like a like a like some battery acid
24:06
Speaker 2: hit a like a molding potato. And now we've got
24:08
Speaker 2: Now we've got RFK. That sounds that sounds very legit
24:13
Speaker 2: is Frankenstein equally as likely.
24:17
Speaker 1: He was born as he is a mix of battery
24:19
Speaker 1: acid and multi potato. Yeah that became sentient life.
24:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, lightning struck battery acid and a mouldi potato and
24:25
Speaker 2: here we are. Now we got that guy.
24:29
Speaker 1: That was a pretty good impression.
24:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, just all you gotta do is just like not
24:32
Speaker 2: say words and just sound like you're choking on something.
24:35
Speaker 1: Yeah while saying something. That's just the most as nine
24:38
Speaker 1: thing ever.
24:39
Speaker 2: But yeah, speaking while you're inhaling.
24:42
Speaker 1: Too yeah, all right. Anyway, Otherwise, things you can do
24:45
Speaker 1: is you can provide warnings when there are hazardous materials.
24:49
Speaker 1: As I said, provide fail safes, meaning you have redundant
24:53
Speaker 1: backup measures and case things break or are used incorrectly,
24:57
Speaker 1: so like just have just have backups, like have things
24:59
Speaker 1: ready to go.
25:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you want to discourage unconscious action and
25:03
Speaker 2: tasks that require vigilance. So like for example, the undo
25:06
Speaker 2: button is a simple tolerance for error design feature that
25:10
Speaker 2: embodies this principle. The bumpy texture where sidewalks slopes down
25:14
Speaker 2: to a crosswalk is a design feature that people know
25:17
Speaker 2: that they are approaching the street when they are they're
25:19
Speaker 2: blind or visually impaired in a wheelchair, coindedly impaired, or
25:23
Speaker 2: texting while walking, and probably stop some skateboards from skating
25:26
Speaker 2: in front of cars and getting hit. So that is
25:28
Speaker 2: just one of those like weird, not weird, but it's
25:31
Speaker 2: a cool design feature of the world around us that
25:33
Speaker 2: actually prevents a lot of errors.
25:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, people like if you've noticed those like the
25:37
Speaker 1: bumpy texture they've added to where the sidewalk slopes down
25:40
Speaker 1: to the street at intersections at crosswalks, that's what that's
25:44
Speaker 1: from is the universal design principles. Yeah, all right, let's
25:47
Speaker 1: talk about low physical effort. That's the next principle, Principal
25:51
Speaker 1: number four. I've wanted to say something about principal Skinner,
25:55
Speaker 1: but principle four. So this is the prince that materials
26:01
Speaker 1: should be designed such that they can be used efficiently
26:04
Speaker 1: and comfortable with minimum fatigue. That is, make things easy
26:08
Speaker 1: to use. I think most of us can get on
26:10
Speaker 1: board with that. Yeah, right, I feel like that one
26:12
Speaker 1: of our stuff to be relatively easy and intuitive to use.
26:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the guidelines for considering low effort designs would
26:18
Speaker 2: be things like allowing the user to maintain a neutral
26:20
Speaker 2: body position so they're not in any sort of unnatural
26:23
Speaker 2: body position, use reasonable operating forces, minimize repetitive actions, and
26:28
Speaker 2: then minimize sustained physical effort. So, like I could tell
26:31
Speaker 2: you that, like right now, Starbucks is not a great company,
26:34
Speaker 2: but like when we worked there, one of the things
26:37
Speaker 2: that they would talk about is like any sort of
26:39
Speaker 2: movement that you would do should follow a natural body movement.
26:42
Speaker 2: They position the espresso machines at a certain level so
26:45
Speaker 2: that I wasn't having to over reach or try to
26:47
Speaker 2: overgrab things. All the materials were there, so it prevented
26:50
Speaker 2: me from having to walk all over the store. So
26:52
Speaker 2: it was like very ergonomic. So like just those types
26:54
Speaker 2: of things were really like you saw that there's a
26:56
Speaker 2: lot of really low physical effort in the spaces where
27:00
Speaker 2: when you were positioned to work in a certain space there.
27:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome that they consider that and that makes
27:05
Speaker 1: a lot of sense.
27:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's too about their union busting.
27:08
Speaker 1: I agree very much. So examples of this, and we're
27:11
Speaker 1: going back to two things we mentioned before, but like
27:14
Speaker 1: automatic doors, Like that's an example of this, those motion
27:17
Speaker 1: detected automated sink faucets. Being able to pay with phone,
27:21
Speaker 1: cash or card to a vending machine is relatively new thing.
27:25
Speaker 1: The opposite of this is the fact that you have
27:27
Speaker 1: to tap those little X close buttons fifteen times to
27:31
Speaker 1: close an ad when you're playing a game on your phone. Yeah,
27:33
Speaker 1: that's the opposite of the idea here. And I do
27:36
Speaker 1: think that advertisers should be shot into the moon for
27:40
Speaker 1: having to do that. Anyway. I think they're like sometimes
27:43
Speaker 1: people will be like they kind of like that they
27:46
Speaker 1: had to get good at a thing and that they
27:48
Speaker 1: like know how to do it and I do actually
27:50
Speaker 1: have an appreciation for that, Like I understand, but like
27:52
Speaker 1: we'll just take for an example, like imagine that if
27:55
Speaker 1: you were to go into a door, first you had
27:58
Speaker 1: to like do a cartwheel and then bend all the
28:00
Speaker 1: way down to the ground and undo a complicated puzzlely latch,
28:04
Speaker 1: and then that would that would open the door. And
28:08
Speaker 1: I'm like, nobody. I mean, maybe that would be fun
28:11
Speaker 1: for a couple of people the first few times you
28:13
Speaker 1: do it, but you're in a hurry, or you are
28:15
Speaker 1: a normal person who doesn't want to do a cartwheel
28:18
Speaker 1: and then a complicated puzzle to open a door. Maybe
28:21
Speaker 1: just put the door handle up by where the door is, yeah,
28:24
Speaker 1: or as I said, just make the door open automatically
28:26
Speaker 1: when people approach it. Like those are I think you
28:30
Speaker 1: can hear this and maybe want to say yeah, but
28:33
Speaker 1: and then have some example of where like it's really
28:35
Speaker 1: cool that you got good at some complex thing that
28:37
Speaker 1: shouldn't be that easy, and that's fine. But I think,
28:40
Speaker 1: like just consider like for a lot of these things
28:42
Speaker 1: we're talking about universal inclusion here, I think it's we
28:46
Speaker 1: don't want that around our lives, yeah, and we shouldn't
28:50
Speaker 1: necessarily want to impose that on others either just because
28:52
Speaker 1: we're proud of ourselves for doing it the hard way.
28:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, what you just describe sounds like trying to get
28:57
Speaker 2: into any of the temples in any Zelda game.
29:00
Speaker 1: That's true. That is a good point.
29:01
Speaker 2: Like you have to push the stone, you have to
29:03
Speaker 2: fight this thing that's shooting poisoningk at you. You have
29:06
Speaker 2: to have a master sword. You can't even have a
29:07
Speaker 2: regular sword for it. It's like a whole thing.
29:09
Speaker 1: I will say, I do One of the things I
29:12
Speaker 1: appreciate about art in the many ways that it's created
29:15
Speaker 1: music or painting or photography or whatever, is that, like
29:19
Speaker 1: people do spend time getting really good at using those tools,
29:24
Speaker 1: and now you can ask AI to just do it
29:26
Speaker 1: for you and it'll do like a pretty reasonable facsimile
29:28
Speaker 1: of those things. But like, the thing I've always appreciated
29:31
Speaker 1: about art is like that someone got really fluent at
29:35
Speaker 1: that and they were good at it. And like I
29:38
Speaker 1: think you can you should make instruments as ergonomic as possible.
29:41
Speaker 1: I think that you should like have things be as
29:44
Speaker 1: accessible to people as they can possibly be. But like
29:47
Speaker 1: one of the things I appreciate, but I appreciate about
29:49
Speaker 1: it is that people spend time getting good at it.
29:52
Speaker 1: And so the fact, like I've lamented for many many
29:55
Speaker 1: years now that computers took away the constraints that that
30:00
Speaker 1: forced people to be creative in their music writing and
30:02
Speaker 1: now you just have the same old slop coming out.
30:04
Speaker 1: Every every new song is the exact same as the
30:07
Speaker 1: last new song yeah that comes out, and it like
30:09
Speaker 1: that is really sad to me. And like when people
30:12
Speaker 1: had to learn instruments to play music, then like they
30:16
Speaker 1: were better at writing songs. Right, So anyway, that is
30:19
Speaker 1: one thing that I think maybe runs counter to this,
30:21
Speaker 1: But like I think what all I'm saying is with
30:23
Speaker 1: respect to art is I do appreciate the people who
30:25
Speaker 1: spend time getting fluent at that.
30:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree too. I think I think there's some
30:30
Speaker 2: there's something really space. But I also think that like
30:31
Speaker 2: there's something to be said about, like when it comes
30:34
Speaker 2: to art, thinking about the ways that we can make
30:36
Speaker 2: it more accessible for people in terms of like being
30:39
Speaker 2: able to participate. And there's some fun things in there too,
30:41
Speaker 2: like there's adaptive equipment like you mentioned, like yeah, there's
30:44
Speaker 2: like there are adaptive instruments that allow for that to
30:46
Speaker 2: happen to like it's pretty it's pretty fascinating when you're
30:48
Speaker 2: in that space. Yeah, specifically, but think about deaf Leppard,
30:51
Speaker 2: Like I think about deaf Leppard specifically because their drummer
30:54
Speaker 2: only has one arm. He's got a limb different one arm. Yeah,
30:56
Speaker 2: and he was and he and that was an acquired
30:58
Speaker 2: limb difference. And then instead of instead of him just
31:01
Speaker 2: stopping playing drums, they set it up so that he
31:03
Speaker 2: had some pedals that allowed him to make some of
31:06
Speaker 2: the noises. It synthesized some of the noises that a
31:08
Speaker 2: drummer would make, mostly a snare drum, Okay, so he
31:12
Speaker 2: could play the symbols with his hand. Yeah, and then
31:14
Speaker 2: he would play the snare drum with a foot, which
31:16
Speaker 2: was cool.
31:16
Speaker 1: That's really cool, Like, yeah, that's and that's exactly what
31:18
Speaker 1: I'm Yeah, I love that, And I think that's exactly
31:21
Speaker 1: the right example here of like he still had to
31:25
Speaker 1: get good at playing drums, but he made the drums
31:28
Speaker 1: as accommodating as possible for his current situation. Yeah, fantastic,
31:32
Speaker 1: all about it. I just it makes me sad that
31:34
Speaker 1: people are like, hey, I do music for me, and
31:36
Speaker 1: they're like, here's music, and then you're like, yeah, listen
31:38
Speaker 1: to that groovy pathetic sad sack jam.
31:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like how you feel when you
31:43
Speaker 2: listen to ads.
31:51
Speaker 1: We're back after listening some groovy pathetic sad sack ads,
31:56
Speaker 1: and we're on to our next design principle with you
32:00
Speaker 1: got three left, all right? This one is size and
32:03
Speaker 1: space love space.
32:06
Speaker 2: So for physical movements some locations, accounting for size and
32:09
Speaker 2: space meant allowing sufficient space for approach, reach, manipulation, and
32:13
Speaker 2: use regardless of the user's body size, posture, mobility, equipment,
32:17
Speaker 2: stuff like that, medical equipment, all of those things.
32:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna tell you a very quick story.
32:23
Speaker 1: There is a restaurant that I love. This is an
32:26
Speaker 1: opposite of this. This is sort of the counter example story.
32:29
Speaker 1: There's a restaurant that I really like here, but the
32:31
Speaker 1: and this restaurant, the way the building was designed. It
32:34
Speaker 1: has the sort of vestibule, so you go through a
32:36
Speaker 1: door and then you're in this very small little room
32:38
Speaker 1: and you go through another door and then you're actually
32:40
Speaker 1: into the restaurant. Right, that's just how they set it up.
32:42
Speaker 1: I think it's supposed to be like a like when
32:44
Speaker 1: it's really cold outside, for example, you don't let the
32:46
Speaker 1: warrant the cold air in because the door is not
32:49
Speaker 1: opening all the way. You go into the entryway and
32:51
Speaker 1: then you go in anyway. They put a bunch of
32:53
Speaker 1: decorations in this entryway and it looks all cool and
32:56
Speaker 1: thematic for the restaurant, but also makes it so that
32:58
Speaker 1: when you go in, you have to navigate around those decorations,
33:03
Speaker 1: and if someone else is trying to leave at the
33:04
Speaker 1: same time, it's really difficult to get past one another.
33:07
Speaker 1: It's like walking down a narrow hallway where both sides
33:10
Speaker 1: there's like stuff that could fall. Yeah, it's really poorly
33:13
Speaker 1: set up to facilitate movement through that space. And you know,
33:17
Speaker 1: just going back again to the point of like considering
33:20
Speaker 1: the use of space as a design principle for accommodating
33:24
Speaker 1: impairments and just creating universal design is a good idea
33:28
Speaker 1: not just because it helps people who have impairments, and
33:31
Speaker 1: it is a good idea for that reason alone, but
33:34
Speaker 1: it also helps everyone else. Like I don't have one
33:37
Speaker 1: of the impairments that would have me benefit from supports
33:40
Speaker 1: with extra space, but I like having it, and like, yeah,
33:43
Speaker 1: and the instance is like this where someone's trying to
33:45
Speaker 1: get by me. It works a lot better to not
33:47
Speaker 1: have us be knocking down decorations because we can't scoot
33:50
Speaker 1: past each other, right.
33:52
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean I think that makes perfect sense. I
33:54
Speaker 2: used to work in a restaurant, I seefood restaurant, and there's
33:56
Speaker 2: a very small dining room and we would have situations
33:59
Speaker 2: where people with walkers would have a really hard time
34:01
Speaker 2: getting to their seats, so, like you could see that,
34:04
Speaker 2: and it was just part of it was because the
34:05
Speaker 2: building was so small in general, but also it is
34:08
Speaker 2: because of seating placement, which could have completely been something
34:12
Speaker 2: in the in the restaurant's control. So they have since
34:15
Speaker 2: actually changed that, and they've done a really good job
34:17
Speaker 2: of like opening up some of the walls and making
34:19
Speaker 2: some of the seats accessible, like and so thankful. This
34:21
Speaker 2: is actually like one of those things where I love
34:23
Speaker 2: my mom so much and I just learned so much
34:25
Speaker 2: about her. She was the general manager when they did that,
34:27
Speaker 2: and she made those recommendations. She's like, people can't get in,
34:31
Speaker 2: so we got we got to open this up, and
34:32
Speaker 2: she did a really good job of making sure that happened.
34:35
Speaker 1: So that's awesome.
34:36
Speaker 2: I love my mom. She's the best. So, Hi, Peanut.
34:39
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've ever said this on the show.
34:40
Speaker 2: Her name is Peanut. Like, so that's that's like a
34:43
Speaker 2: real thing.
34:44
Speaker 1: I don't know if you mentioned that any well, anyway.
34:46
Speaker 2: Now everybody knows.
34:47
Speaker 1: Yeah.
34:47
Speaker 2: So some recommendations for size and space, specifically for facilitating
34:51
Speaker 2: design and space principles, would include things like provide clear
34:54
Speaker 2: lines of sight to important elements of seated or standing users.
34:58
Speaker 2: Accommodate variations hand and grip size, especially like I mean,
35:02
Speaker 2: you think about this just from like children to adults,
35:04
Speaker 2: like being able to have those as well, like let alone,
35:07
Speaker 2: ability and accessibility. You want to be able to make
35:10
Speaker 2: sure that somebody can reach all the components comfortable for
35:12
Speaker 2: any seated or standing user. Provide adequate space for the
35:16
Speaker 2: users for assisted devices or personal assistance, and like I
35:20
Speaker 2: mentioned before, like being able to move in walkers, wheelchairs,
35:24
Speaker 2: oxygen tanks for people who have breathing challenges, lots of
35:27
Speaker 2: different like kind of whatever equipment is available for somebody,
35:30
Speaker 2: you want to make sure they can get in there.
35:32
Speaker 1: You know what, I think I've noticed this happening quite
35:34
Speaker 1: a bit more as movie theaters. Like movie theaters you
35:37
Speaker 1: used to be like just rubbing shoulders with the person
35:40
Speaker 1: next to you, and anymore, they've actually like they've opened
35:43
Speaker 1: up the walkways so you're not like touching people as
35:46
Speaker 1: you walk by, and you're not like touching people when
35:48
Speaker 1: you're sitting down. There's like adequate space in there.
35:51
Speaker 2: Yeah.
35:52
Speaker 1: I can see where like they might be like we
35:54
Speaker 1: want as many butts and chairs as possible, and that's
35:56
Speaker 1: fine to want that, but like it's a lot more
35:59
Speaker 1: pleasant of an experience to go to a movie theater
36:01
Speaker 1: now because it doesn't feel so like sardine packed in this. Yeah,
36:07
Speaker 1: and that definitely is going to accommodate people who have
36:09
Speaker 1: walkers or wheelchairs or canes or again, they just prefer
36:13
Speaker 1: to have space where they're not rubbing up against people
36:15
Speaker 1: or being rubbed up against by other people when they're
36:18
Speaker 1: trying to watch a movie and like they're all getting
36:20
Speaker 1: they're finding their seats and everything. Yeah, So I think
36:22
Speaker 1: that's I think that's that's maybe an example of how
36:25
Speaker 1: this has improved. Absolutely all right, we're in our penultimate
36:30
Speaker 1: design principle. This is simple and intuitive use. This principle
36:34
Speaker 1: entails design that is easy to understand, regardless of the
36:39
Speaker 1: user's experience, knowledge, language skills, or current concentration levels.
36:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of modern pictographic symbology, particularly on signage,
36:49
Speaker 2: is intended to facilitate the use for many people. So
36:52
Speaker 2: like people can see it and go, I know what
36:54
Speaker 2: that is without having to like speak the language or
36:57
Speaker 2: to be able to read it all like, And they're
37:01
Speaker 2: also very bold, so you can see them with if
37:03
Speaker 2: you have some visual impairments.
37:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you have a giant sign that
37:06
Speaker 1: has a profile of a toilet on it, it kind
37:08
Speaker 1: of doesn't matter what language you speak, like, you will
37:10
Speaker 1: probably recognize what that thing is.
37:12
Speaker 2: You'll probably recognize that, yeah, which is usually the White House.
37:19
Speaker 1: Got them, got them, take that, you know.
37:23
Speaker 2: It's the little resistance that matters too.
37:25
Speaker 1: That's right, That's right, all right. So the guidelines for
37:29
Speaker 1: simple and intuitive use and as far as this principle
37:32
Speaker 1: is concerned, include eliminating unnecessary complexity, being consistent with user
37:38
Speaker 1: expectations and limitations, accommodating a wide range of literacy and
37:43
Speaker 1: language skills, arranging information consistent with its importance, making sure
37:49
Speaker 1: you got like the really important stuff is up first.
37:51
Speaker 1: If it was like do all these things blah blah blah,
37:54
Speaker 1: blah blah. By the way, unless it's Tuesday, in which case,
37:56
Speaker 1: don't do any of those things. And they're like, but
37:58
Speaker 1: it is Tuesday. I just said all those things, like, yeah,
38:02
Speaker 1: all right, provide effective prompting and feedback during and after
38:06
Speaker 1: task completion. So those are those are some things again
38:10
Speaker 1: to just have in mind as far as having simple
38:12
Speaker 1: and intuitive use.
38:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now you may have noticed that many signs have
38:16
Speaker 2: started to include a lot of symbols and less text,
38:19
Speaker 2: and even the text when they do included, is like
38:21
Speaker 2: very bold and sans serif. That's which I learned on
38:24
Speaker 2: the many Yeah, you'll see that they'll have things like
38:26
Speaker 2: the trash symbol, which indicates a simple two D profile
38:29
Speaker 2: or outline of a rubbish or trash bin. The symbol
38:33
Speaker 2: takes up less space than text, does not require an
38:35
Speaker 2: understanding of reading English text, and is simple and easily recognizable. Now,
38:40
Speaker 2: of course, there's always room for improvement. We can always
38:43
Speaker 2: do better, and some of these symbols are not very intuitive,
38:46
Speaker 2: but you know, it's a good direction to be heading
38:49
Speaker 2: at least, you know, when I think about when I
38:51
Speaker 2: was a kid and I would see like road signs
38:53
Speaker 2: and there would be an arrow pointing up. I'm like,
38:55
Speaker 2: we can't go straight up? What are you talking about?
38:57
Speaker 2: It was actually pointing forward, but like my understan anyone.
39:00
Speaker 1: Was like, it's up.
39:01
Speaker 2: I can't go up. It is a car, not a plane.
39:04
Speaker 2: You know.
39:07
Speaker 1: I love that. I think about that. That's really good.
39:10
Speaker 2: It's just the little things, you know, it is.
39:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I mean those are examples, you know.
39:15
Speaker 1: I think in our lifetimes, I feel like I've seen
39:18
Speaker 1: an increase in printing directions directly on the street itself. Yeah,
39:23
Speaker 1: which again is another way that I think it makes
39:25
Speaker 1: a little bit more intuitive and like you should be
39:28
Speaker 1: looking at the road anyway, Like having to look at
39:30
Speaker 1: a sign might actually be taking your eyes off of
39:32
Speaker 1: the road where they should instead be oriented. So that's
39:36
Speaker 1: that's kind of good idea. I think that like we'll
39:38
Speaker 1: figure out that like things that we thought were working
39:41
Speaker 1: aren't working as well as we thought, and that's okay.
39:43
Speaker 1: Like the whole point is just that we keep in
39:45
Speaker 1: mind we're trying to make things as useful as possible,
39:49
Speaker 1: like allow the greatest number of users the information needed.
39:53
Speaker 1: And that's when you when you're like moving around on
39:56
Speaker 1: our devices anymore, our phones or iPads et cetera. Like
40:00
Speaker 1: they've done a really good job of making a lot
40:01
Speaker 1: of icons consistent with each other. Yeah, so it's like
40:04
Speaker 1: a lot of things look like the thing they're supposed
40:07
Speaker 1: to be, or they you see the same icon, the
40:09
Speaker 1: same symbol for something across multiple apps or settings or
40:13
Speaker 1: features or what have you. And so then it becomes
40:16
Speaker 1: increasingly consistent and you know what to do in any situation.
40:20
Speaker 1: It's like, actually, one of the things they built into
40:22
Speaker 1: the very first iPhone that they have continued throughout is
40:24
Speaker 1: how do you close this app once you've opened it? Like,
40:27
Speaker 1: if they were not thinking for universal design, it could
40:30
Speaker 1: have been that like in this app, you have to
40:32
Speaker 1: find this button, and this app you have to do
40:33
Speaker 1: this thing, and this app you have to do this
40:35
Speaker 1: sequence of things. Nope, on the phone, it's just pressed
40:38
Speaker 1: this button that that'll bring you back to your main menu,
40:40
Speaker 1: no matter where you're at, that'll always bring you back.
40:42
Speaker 1: Or now it's you know, swipe up and that will
40:44
Speaker 1: bring you back to your main menu. They made it
40:46
Speaker 1: so it's always the exact same way that you get
40:49
Speaker 1: back to the main screen, which is I think an
40:52
Speaker 1: example of sort of universal design. Yeah, most definitely all right,
40:56
Speaker 1: we're onto our last design principle, well, second to life.
41:00
Speaker 1: So we've got ADS, all right, we're back. ADS is
41:11
Speaker 1: not a design principle. That is a design flaw, a
41:13
Speaker 1: massive design flaw.
41:14
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and a human design is a.
41:18
Speaker 1: Human design flaw. Yeah. Our last principle is flexibility in use.
41:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this last principle embodies the idea that designs
41:27
Speaker 2: accommodate a wide range of individual preferences and abilities. I
41:31
Speaker 2: want to be really clear about that. It's got to
41:33
Speaker 2: be preferences and abilities. It's got to cast a wide net.
41:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. A common feature of this principle is that
41:39
Speaker 1: users are given a choice of how to interact with
41:42
Speaker 1: a particular product because of its design allows that choice.
41:46
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, flexibility and use includes features such as choice
41:49
Speaker 2: and methods of use, accommodating right or left handed dominant
41:53
Speaker 2: access and use, facilitate users accuracy and precision, and provide
41:57
Speaker 2: adaptability to the user's pace and so.
42:00
Speaker 1: As an example of this, many phones and other mobile
42:03
Speaker 1: devices and computers have voice to text. There are now
42:07
Speaker 1: very commonly virtual assistants, voice commands, screen readers. They have
42:12
Speaker 1: these magnifying glass like features that might on your device
42:17
Speaker 1: and large some portion of the screen, or you can
42:20
Speaker 1: even use the device as a magnifying glass by using
42:23
Speaker 1: its camera to look around your environment, and many others
42:27
Speaker 1: that people may or may not choose to use, but
42:29
Speaker 1: they are there. They're like available for people to select
42:33
Speaker 1: and use if they need them. Some people I know
42:36
Speaker 1: use Siri to send every text message on their iPhone.
42:39
Speaker 1: They'll always they'll always use Siri to send their message
42:43
Speaker 1: whatever they're going to send, or their email or their
42:45
Speaker 1: slack or some other communication. Others I know don't use
42:48
Speaker 1: it at all. The phone doesn't really care, Like your
42:51
Speaker 1: device doesn't care whether or not you use a virtual assistant,
42:54
Speaker 1: whichever modality you prefer, regardless of your physical abilities. It's
42:58
Speaker 1: there as an option to facilitate the way you'd prefer
43:02
Speaker 1: to use that device. That means that it accommodates a
43:05
Speaker 1: wide range of abilities and preferences, right.
43:09
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't particularly use Siri, but I think
43:12
Speaker 2: part of that is because I haven't needed to, like,
43:15
Speaker 2: but if I did need to, I could, And that's
43:17
Speaker 2: nice that I can choose to if I wanted to.
43:19
Speaker 1: And it's gotten so much better. So I use it
43:22
Speaker 1: mostly when I'm driving because I can tell it a
43:24
Speaker 1: lot of different kinds of commands that it'll be able
43:26
Speaker 1: to follow, Like now I will I will do things
43:29
Speaker 1: like get me directions home with the least amount that
43:33
Speaker 1: or the fastest or the least amount of turns or
43:36
Speaker 1: something like that. I can also say share my ETA
43:39
Speaker 1: with this person. I can also say call this person.
43:41
Speaker 1: Like there's so many things I can do that I
43:45
Speaker 1: need to have my hands on the wheel and not
43:47
Speaker 1: be trying to navigate multiple menus on my phone. Yea
43:50
Speaker 1: that those voice assistants can do that. Like if I
43:53
Speaker 1: also was someone who had a visual impairment, that would
43:56
Speaker 1: be extremely handy. I could use my phone basically the
43:58
Speaker 1: way I would if I were looking at it, but
44:01
Speaker 1: I would be doing so even having a visual impairment.
44:04
Speaker 1: And like, again this is a universal design principle. It
44:07
Speaker 1: works for me someone who doesn't have a very well
44:09
Speaker 1: eyewear glasses, but I don't have a very severe visual impairment.
44:12
Speaker 1: I can look at my phone and use it. But
44:14
Speaker 1: I still benefit from that feature, right right, absolutely, And
44:18
Speaker 1: I mean you could probably come up with a ton
44:19
Speaker 1: of different examples, Like there's like automatic doors where like
44:22
Speaker 1: sometimes it'll have like a button you can press and
44:25
Speaker 1: that'll open the door ahead of time. They might have
44:26
Speaker 1: a sensor. It might have like a pull this handle
44:29
Speaker 1: type thing like. There are sometimes different ways that you
44:31
Speaker 1: can approach it. They might have like an escalator stairs
44:35
Speaker 1: and an elevator for how you prefer to get up
44:38
Speaker 1: one flight to the other. I think there are lots
44:40
Speaker 1: of different ways that they can accommodate this, and that
44:42
Speaker 1: you will see in a lot of different spaces because
44:44
Speaker 1: people have adopted a lot of these principles. Yeah, absolutely,
44:48
Speaker 1: all right, So I think a quick summary here is
44:51
Speaker 1: that the features and products that have been created with
44:55
Speaker 1: accessibility in mind improve those products for everyone in most circumstances.
45:00
Speaker 1: Sometimes we don't notice them, and sometimes they can be
45:02
Speaker 1: a little inconvenient to design or maybe work around, but
45:06
Speaker 1: most of them make our lives easier, and they blend
45:09
Speaker 1: in so well that anymore, a lot of them we
45:11
Speaker 1: kind of just take for granted.
45:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's worth acknowledging too, for those naysayers out there
45:16
Speaker 2: that we that we understand that there are going to
45:18
Speaker 2: be products and situations that are not intended for an
45:20
Speaker 2: inclusive audience. Classified messages in the military are designed to
45:23
Speaker 2: be inaccessible as inaccessible as possible by design, not posted
45:28
Speaker 2: on social media or in secure messaging apps, or texts
45:32
Speaker 2: to journals or you know those things journalists which keep
45:35
Speaker 2: happening journalists. I'm sorry, that's say, journals or text edited journalists,
45:39
Speaker 2: is what I meant to say. No examples of that
45:41
Speaker 2: that happened recently. You know, it's also difficult to imagine
45:45
Speaker 2: how deep sea diving will be available to a broad
45:47
Speaker 2: range of people with significant physical impeerments. However, most products,
45:51
Speaker 2: most circumstances the world that we live on a day
45:54
Speaker 2: to day basis are improved by making them as accessible
45:57
Speaker 2: as possible. And because science is so cool all the time,
46:01
Speaker 2: we are always finding ways to improve those other spaces
46:05
Speaker 2: that are more extreme, less accessible to most people, we
46:09
Speaker 2: are continuing to work on that. So like, I think
46:11
Speaker 2: that even if right now a situation or circumstance does
46:14
Speaker 2: not have the accessibility that we think it should, I
46:17
Speaker 2: believe that eventually we will, because we are always pushing
46:20
Speaker 2: the limits of the science to make that happen. So
46:23
Speaker 2: I do think that as if we're always going forward
46:25
Speaker 2: with universal design principles, we are going to continue to
46:29
Speaker 2: make the world more accessible for the folks. That are
46:31
Speaker 2: being excluded right now, and I think that's really important.
46:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. And as we've harped on so many times, like,
46:37
Speaker 1: part of the reason I keep saying this benefits everyone
46:40
Speaker 1: is because I want for those people who have sort
46:42
Speaker 1: of selfish it doesn't help me, so I don't think
46:45
Speaker 1: we should do it. Thing in mind is like it
46:47
Speaker 1: does help you, Like this works for everyone. Yeah, the
46:51
Speaker 1: things that make your life easier, we're largely developed out
46:54
Speaker 1: of accommodation for people with various disabilities and impairments and whatnot,
46:58
Speaker 1: and to help overcome disabilities created by poor, poorly designed infrastructure. Yeah,
47:03
Speaker 1: and it's and again like it also accommodates a wide
47:06
Speaker 1: range of circumstances that go that do include impairments, but
47:09
Speaker 1: also go well beyond that and even into just like
47:12
Speaker 1: it's just more convenient to have this work this way.
47:16
Speaker 1: And and the other thing though that and why we
47:18
Speaker 1: started with this note is like, also, let's just include
47:21
Speaker 1: as many people as possible. And yeah, there will be
47:24
Speaker 1: spaces where that inclusion is either difficult or nearly impossible,
47:29
Speaker 1: but like we're getting better and better at that too,
47:31
Speaker 1: so maybe there won't be those spaces anymore. And like
47:34
Speaker 1: we should just keep working at it. It just makes
47:37
Speaker 1: the most sense to have the human experience be as
47:41
Speaker 1: widely available to people as possible. Like, as much as
47:45
Speaker 1: I like to harp on airports and airplanes, like they
47:48
Speaker 1: have done some of this. I think they've got a
47:50
Speaker 1: really long way to go, but they have done some
47:53
Speaker 1: of this. Like if we like look at how they've
47:56
Speaker 1: set up the line to board the plane where they
47:58
Speaker 1: sort of have all like they have signs, and they
48:01
Speaker 1: have the little turnstile things sometimes and they've got like
48:03
Speaker 1: posts that will have things indicated on them. They've done
48:07
Speaker 1: some things well with that that people will mostly organize
48:10
Speaker 1: in that line and be able to get on the
48:12
Speaker 1: plane in a fairly organized manner. Lots of improvements to
48:15
Speaker 1: be made, but like that's better than just like calling
48:17
Speaker 1: out people one by one or something like that, you know,
48:20
Speaker 1: or just having people just crowd around the entrance and
48:22
Speaker 1: try and get them on the plane. So like they've
48:24
Speaker 1: done some things to help navigate that.
48:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think also too for those folks that say, like, well,
48:30
Speaker 2: this doesn't help me now, and it may not you
48:32
Speaker 2: may not feel the impact of this now, but God
48:35
Speaker 2: forbid something happens you're aging. Yeah, eventually you may need
48:38
Speaker 2: a walker, you may need a wheelchair, you may suffer
48:41
Speaker 2: an injury, you may end up with a limb difference,
48:43
Speaker 2: you may end up with something that happens that is
48:45
Speaker 2: gonna make things less accessible for you, because the world
48:48
Speaker 2: is not built for people, many times to be as
48:51
Speaker 2: inclusive as possible. So like, while this might not happen
48:54
Speaker 2: to you right now, you know, unfortunately life is a
48:57
Speaker 2: strange curving road that you never know where it's going
49:00
Speaker 2: to take you. So if these principles are in place
49:04
Speaker 2: now and making every circumstance as accessible as it could
49:06
Speaker 2: be for everybody, you won't ever have to experience that.
49:10
Speaker 1: Depending on how you slice and dice it, about twenty
49:12
Speaker 1: five percent of adults in the United States have some
49:16
Speaker 1: kind of impairment or disability, and one hundred percent of
49:20
Speaker 1: adults who live long enough will have an impairment or disability.
49:23
Speaker 1: Like those those are the numbers. Yeah, you live long enough,
49:27
Speaker 1: you will be one of those people. Guaranteed, guaranteed, like
49:31
Speaker 1: it will happen. But otherwise, like even still, like that's
49:34
Speaker 1: a pretty large chunk of the population. Yeah, absolutely perfect,
49:38
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that's what we have to
49:40
Speaker 1: say about the universal design principles for now, is there?
49:44
Speaker 1: Unless there's anything else else you'd like to add, any
49:46
Speaker 1: other examples or anything.
49:47
Speaker 2: No, not off the top of my head.
49:49
Speaker 1: All right, cool. We are going to recommend some things.
49:52
Speaker 1: If you're joining us for the first time, at the
49:54
Speaker 1: end of our full length discussions, we just talk about
49:56
Speaker 1: something that we are we're excited about, and we recommend it,
49:59
Speaker 1: and then you can check that thing out if you
50:01
Speaker 1: feel like that sounds like it's up your alley, or
50:03
Speaker 1: you can just ignore us otherwise, But either way, I
50:05
Speaker 1: think it's kind of fun. But first I do need
50:07
Speaker 1: to get through some credits, So if you would like
50:10
Speaker 1: to support what we do, you can head over to Patreon.
50:12
Speaker 1: You can pick up some merch like and subscribe. Tell
50:15
Speaker 1: a friend, just go grab someone's phone subscribe to our podcast.
50:19
Speaker 1: They'll start popping up in their feed and they'll be like,
50:20
Speaker 1: what is this gold that someone just gifted upon me?
50:24
Speaker 1: That's probably how that will go. But yeah, Also, if
50:27
Speaker 1: you do join us on Patreon, you'll get some bonus content,
50:31
Speaker 1: ad free content, early episodes, all that sort of thing,
50:33
Speaker 1: and I will read the names of the people who
50:37
Speaker 1: do support us on Patreon, So a big thank you
50:40
Speaker 1: and shout out to the following people over on Patreon
50:43
Speaker 1: that is Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley,
50:49
Speaker 1: Kiara and Charlie. Thank you all so much for continuing
50:52
Speaker 1: to help us be a show.
50:53
Speaker 2: You're the best people ever.
50:54
Speaker 1: Indeed, also thank you to my team of people without
50:57
Speaker 1: whom I could not do this show writing in fact
50:59
Speaker 1: check from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording with
51:02
Speaker 1: me today.
51:03
Speaker 2: Shane anytime.
51:05
Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our editor
51:08
Speaker 1: at Guru Maestro extraordinaire is Justin, who is very good
51:13
Speaker 1: at what he does, and in this episode in particular,
51:16
Speaker 1: had to cut a lot of coughs and grunts and
51:18
Speaker 1: sneezes and things that do not sound good. So I'm sorry, Justin,
51:21
Speaker 1: but thank you for all your wonderful.
51:23
Speaker 2: Work and screams and howls and and all the things
51:26
Speaker 2: from feral hissing, so feral hissing. Yeah, it's a wild
51:30
Speaker 2: time over here at the show.
51:32
Speaker 1: You don't get any of that because Justin is so
51:34
Speaker 1: good at what he does, So thank you Justin. So
51:36
Speaker 1: appreciative indeed, and then of course thank you all so
51:39
Speaker 1: much for listening. If you would like to tell us
51:41
Speaker 1: your thoughts on universal design principles, expand on any of them,
51:45
Speaker 1: or give me some examples or anything like that, you
51:47
Speaker 1: can email us directly info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or
51:52
Speaker 1: reach us on the social media platforms. But I think
51:54
Speaker 1: we're good to get to our recommendations unless there's anything
51:57
Speaker 1: else I'm missing. No, I'm ready perfect, all right, let's
51:59
Speaker 1: recommend some things. Yay recommendations.
52:09
Speaker 2: All right, So I'm gonna recommend an album. This is
52:12
Speaker 2: a band that I discovered more recently, and I discovered
52:15
Speaker 2: them as a result of watching Thrice on Amba Music's
52:19
Speaker 2: What's in My Bag? If you ever follow that on YouTube,
52:22
Speaker 2: which is really great. Have you ever seen that bonus recommendation?
52:26
Speaker 1: I never have. I did see that recommend that specific
52:29
Speaker 1: video recommended, and I was like, what is this? And
52:31
Speaker 1: then I just get past it.
52:33
Speaker 2: So it's you know what, It's truly wonderful, So bonus recommendation.
52:36
Speaker 2: Go watch What's in My Bag from Amba Music Amba Records. Basically,
52:40
Speaker 2: what it is is they'll have artists come on and
52:42
Speaker 2: they will interview them, and they literally just have the
52:44
Speaker 2: person go through the store and just grab a bunch
52:46
Speaker 2: of records that they wanted to get and then talk
52:48
Speaker 2: about why they pick those records and why they like them.
52:50
Speaker 2: So it was like, if you like those musicians, then
52:52
Speaker 2: you get to hear what influences them in those spaces.
52:55
Speaker 2: So this I actually found two bands from the three.
53:00
Speaker 2: One one of them was this really amazing guitar music
53:04
Speaker 2: from Japan. I'm gonna give you two recommendations for records
53:08
Speaker 2: that I found from this What's in my Bag from
53:10
Speaker 2: Records and he both came from the really the guitar
53:12
Speaker 2: player in the band who is like the more the
53:16
Speaker 2: I forget what his name is, but he's like super talented, Tepe.
53:19
Speaker 2: Tepe is incredible. He's my favorite, He's my favorite Thrice guy.
53:23
Speaker 2: He recommended one record called Nip on Guitars or Nip
53:26
Speaker 2: and Guitars from this artist named Takeshi Taraki or Tarachi,
53:31
Speaker 2: and it's a it's Japanese surf rock nice and it's
53:35
Speaker 2: just so good. It immediately got me and I really
53:39
Speaker 2: loved it. But my actual recommendation is a record from
53:43
Speaker 2: a guy named Jen's Curos. He put out a new
53:45
Speaker 2: record this year called Crooked Songs, and it's just this incredible, quiet, mellow,
53:53
Speaker 2: acoustic indie rock thing, like very folky. I would say,
53:57
Speaker 2: it's like kind of like a modern Nebraska Bruce Springsteen.
54:01
Speaker 2: There are no other instruments on it. It's just an
54:03
Speaker 2: acoustic guitar. It's just this dude. It sounds like he
54:05
Speaker 2: recorded it on a four track and then didn't edit
54:08
Speaker 2: it at all, which I think is really cool. And
54:11
Speaker 2: I say that because like you hear him shuffling in
54:12
Speaker 2: the background, you hear like him walking around the room
54:15
Speaker 2: that he's in, which is really really cool. And it's
54:19
Speaker 2: a really lovely It's a beautiful piece of like I
54:22
Speaker 2: would say, like maybe gothic folk art to some degree.
54:26
Speaker 2: It's a really beautiful, haunting record. So Jen's curros Croocked
54:31
Speaker 2: Songs is really the go to right.
54:33
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, with the play with like two other oponents
54:35
Speaker 1: recommendations in there as well.
54:37
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, with go listen What's in My Bag and
54:39
Speaker 2: then I'll go watch that show subscribe to it, and
54:42
Speaker 2: then also to Keshi Tarachi with Nippon guitars, which is
54:46
Speaker 2: just wild.
54:47
Speaker 1: Sweet, all right, very good. I'm recommending a TV show
54:52
Speaker 1: that most people know about and already watch, and that's
54:54
Speaker 1: okay because I'm just very I just love it so much.
54:57
Speaker 1: This is the Great British Baking Show, which in the
55:01
Speaker 1: most of the world is called the Great British Bakeoff.
55:03
Speaker 1: Season sixteen is just fully completed on Netflix. Now, if
55:08
Speaker 1: you're a Netflix subscriber or whoever, you get to this.
55:10
Speaker 1: But just another fabulous, wonderful season. That's just one of
55:16
Speaker 1: the things I look forward to all week and I'm
55:19
Speaker 1: sad that it's over, but I'm glad that I got
55:21
Speaker 1: to experience it. I wish that there was an episode
55:24
Speaker 1: every week forever. Yeah, but what a lovely, really fun,
55:27
Speaker 1: sweet wholesome show. And so if you are a Netflix subscriber,
55:30
Speaker 1: you can get it there, but I'm sure that it's
55:32
Speaker 1: available in other places.
55:33
Speaker 2: It's truly incredible. I love that show so much, Like
55:36
Speaker 2: it's so wholesome. It makes you feel so good watching.
55:38
Speaker 1: It, it really does. It's just like just so well done.
55:43
Speaker 1: Everything about it so well done. So anyway, yeah, season
55:45
Speaker 1: sixteen on Netflix or wherever you get the shows. Yeah,
55:48
Speaker 1: but yeah, great British making Show, Great British Bakeoff. And
55:51
Speaker 1: then Jen's Curros, Crooked Songs, Takeshi Taraki you said, Nippon guitars,
55:57
Speaker 1: Yeah it's raki, yeah, tarraki okay, and then what's in
56:00
Speaker 1: my bag or the full set of recommendations? This time
56:03
Speaker 1: it's a big listen.
56:04
Speaker 2: Yes, so many, so many things to check out.
56:06
Speaker 1: All right, perfect, Well we'll go ahead and wrap it
56:08
Speaker 1: up there. Thank you all so much for listening. Go
56:09
Speaker 1: out and design things with universal accessibility and mind anything
56:14
Speaker 1: else you'd like to add her that I forgot before
56:15
Speaker 1: We saya, goodbyes, nothing at all, all right, perfect? Then
56:19
Speaker 1: this is Abraham and this is Shane. We're out.
56:21
Speaker 2: Bye.
56:22
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
56:25
Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
56:28
Speaker 2: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
56:33
Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day