Latest / THE RCA MIX / The Science of Reading Meets the Love of Reading | Korey Collins

Transcript

The Science of Reading Meets the Love of Reading | Korey Collins · THE RCA MIX

• speaker-0: Imagine the kid who has come to a kindergarten classroom who has been entertained by the screen their whole life, they're four or five years before they go to school. speaker-1: I hear teachers say often when they come here, when teachers come here for educator training, they say they don't like reading. You know, I can't even get them to want to read. They don't want to pick up a book. They don't have the cognitive stamina to actually finish a book. We believe incredibly in the science of reading. It's something that's very important, but give us a little snapshot of when we say that, what are we even talking about? speaker-0: But the one thing that I thought was most attractive about the science of reading was all the collective of researchers that come together to say, this is kind of how the brain learns to read and this is how instruction should look. speaker-1: Hello everyone, I'm Kim Bearden. Welcome to the RCA mix. Every episode I sit down with someone to have an honest conversation about things that matter to us in education. Things we get right, things we sometimes miss, and ways that we can improve and find strategies that we can take back and use right away. And I'm so excited about this week because I have one of my very favorite humans on the planet, Mr. Corey Collins. Now, Corey is a phenomenal teacher, he's a phenomenal father, a phenomenal husband, and a phenomenal friend. But he is also the person that I go to whenever I have questions about the science of reading, about vocabulary strategies, how to make kids love reading, and even how to really make sure that we're doing interdisciplinary reading across the board in our school here at the Ronkark Academy. And so I thought we would delve into that a little bit today because no matter where you are, whether you're in education or not. It's hard right now not to pick up your phone and scroll or even to look at the news and see that people are concerned about reading in this country. We have our test scores are declining, our reading scores are not measuring up to other countries as well. We have students who can read who don't want to read anymore. And they don't want to pick up books, it seems. And so there's a concern for that as well. And so how do we solve these problems? How do we make sure that we have students who can read? Because we know that that affects everything in their lives, whether or not a student is able to read well. And how do we make them have a love for it so that they'll continue to want to be lifelong readers? And so we're going to sit down and have a conversation about that and hopefully give you some tips and tricks, strategies to use in your classroom or even with your own children after you listen today. So Corey Collins, thank you for joining me on the RCA mix. speaker-0: Glad to be here. Is there any other niceties that you wanted to say about me before we got into the the real stuff 'cause I know I really enjoyed all of that. speaker-1: Did you enjoy all that? I have a feeling that you're going to put that on somewhere and and just send it to me whenever I ask you to do something. speaker-0: that clip will be cut out and put somewhere so I can just have it on replay in your voice over and over again. speaker-1: As I told you, Corey is a very good friend as well, and so we like to give each other a hard time. He's sort of like a brother to me. And so you might pick up on that throughout the course. So I really did mean everything I said, although it pains me to say it right to your face. I speak well behind your back all the time. I speak of you highly behind your back, but now you get to actually hear it in person. So Corey, reading everywhere you look, it is people's number one concern. It's the goal for many schools is how do we improve our reading scores? How do we create these lifelong readers but skilled readers? And the phrase that we keep hearing over and over again is the science of reading. And so if there's anybody who's missed the memo on that or they're like, what are they even talking about when they study the science of reading? We believe incredibly in the science of reading. It's something that's very important, but give us a little snapshot of when we say that, what are we even talking about? speaker-0: Yeah, so I think it's first important and you're right, I think it's it's great that we have access to all different types of media types to see that you know what this reading thing is really a problem and our scores on the nape have been declining like just at rapid it's just been a rapid decline over the the last couple of years. So it's great that this this term science of reading has come to light, even though it's not anything new. for anybody who's kinda just new or just wading into the science of reading waters. One of the things that I like to talk about first is what it's not, right? It it's not a a fad, it's not the new trend, it is not the replacement for whatever came before it. It's not a political ideology, it's not and this is what what a lot of people that that I've seen struggle with. It's not just strictly phonics, a focus on on phonics, but speaker-1: But phonics are part of it. speaker-0: a massive, massive a part of it. But you know, like with anything in education, sometimes we grab hold of something and we leave everything else behind and we focus solely on this one piece, but Phonics incredibly important part of it, but not the the sum of it at all. So that's one thing that I I think we've kind of made a mistake over the past couple years where it's like, it's just the phonics first approach. We've been here before. No, it's it's a really important part of it. But what I love about the science of reading, there's so many descriptors out there, so many definitions, and they use terms like this this vast interdisciplinary studies of scientifically based research that i yeah, it's it's research. speaker-1: The brain learns how to read and read well. Right. speaker-0: for years we we started to think that reading was this innate process that we picked up on our own, or that we picked up by just being submerged in literacy print rich environments and that's that's not true. What's interesting about this this science and the thing that I fell in love with right off the rip is we're such we're like we're so divisive in the world, like it's black, it's white, it's green, no, it's it's fuchsia like it this arguments over everything. But the one thing that I thought was most attractive about the science of reading was all the collective of researchers that come together to say this is kind of how the brain learns to read and this is how instruction should look. I mean we're talking about educational psychologists, we're talking about neuroscience, we're talking about cognitive science, we're talking about special ed educators, linguists, like all in what world do all these people from all these different fields come together and land on one singular approach or one single it that was a thing where I was like, man, if all these people speaker-1: If we could do that in other areas in this world, wouldn't it be great? speaker-0: It'd be we'd have awesome, we'd see a lot of great things happening. But nonetheless that like I said, that was the most attractive thing to me was that all these people from all these different fields came together and said, Yeah, this is this is what we need to do. So it's just research that's been around for decades now. It's not like I said, it's not a fad, it's not new, it's not the new speaker-1: Things like phonics are a piece of it. What would be something else that would be another part of the recipe of teaching the science of reading? speaker-0: So a couple of things that if listeners are unfamiliar with this, some great great starting points is the simple view of reading, which was coined the term was coined in in nineteen eighty six and I think the researchers, Goff and Tumner were were being a bit coy when they called it the simple view of reading, 'cause you and I know and the world knows that there's nothing simple about reading. Right. but what they tried to do was break it down into just identifiable parts that say, if kids have a command of like phonics of w word recognition is what they called it and phonics is a part of that and then language comprehension. if they could do those if a student could do both of those with perfection, that's when that skilled reading, that reading comprehension would take place. But they used instead of saying word recognition plus language comprehension, he used they used a like a a multiplication symbol. So it's multiplicative. And it's smart because if their decoding is fantastic they can read every single word in the whole white world, but their language comprehension is anything less than perfect. You're not gonna see that perfect skilled reading happen because one times, let's say, they can only understand half the text from a language comprehension standpoint, one times point five is some number. I don't know, math. Let's get Dr. Jones in here. I don't know. But skilled reading is not gonna take place because of the deficiency on either side of that. speaker-1: Right, even if I can read the word, if I don't know what the word means to understand it in context or then it then I'm still lost. Or I can speaker-0: Yeah, I I you've been in the game for speaker-1: get to it right, I can get to a certain point, but then after that, or it may even be that my teachers think I can read well, I can read aloud, I can tell you what I'm reading in the excerpt, but then when that content becomes a lot more vocabulary rich, I may not have any understanding of what I'm reading at all. speaker-0: Yeah, and there's gonna be like there there'll be a hole somewhere. So that was in nineteen eighty six. And like I was gonna say, and you kinda alluded to it, you've been in the game for forty one years. You've been around I wouldn't call them word callers. Right. Right? A kid who can read with perfection. Right. But then you ask very simple recall questions and anything past that and they struggle immensely. And it's kinda like like, dude, I heard you read this whole thing with like a hundred percent accuracy and the the rate was there, the prosody was there. Why can't you understand? Well, there's a deficiency on so in two thousand one there was a another researcher, Hollis Scarborough, who took that simple view of reading, kinda made an expanded form of it. And she still had that language comprehension piece and the word recognition piece. The word recognition piece composed of of decoding, spelling, just more word recognition. And then the language comprehension piece was comprised of background knowledge, concepts of print, vocabulary, syntax, which is really, really, really important. so those things, all those things have to work in tandem if skilled reading is gonna take place. So, like you said, you had a kid who can read perfectly with little to no issue if they didn't have the background on the subject or if the vocabulary they didn't understand what they were reading or from a syntactic standpoint the sh the the st the sentence structure was was comprised of more complex sentences, that might be where the hole is. Right. So that that was Over the like that was twenty years ago, or twenty five my gosh, twenty five years ago. It was twenty years ago when I first started studying it. so we now that we've looked at the simple view and we've looked at this expanded form in Hollis Scarborough's reading rope, and now there's even another one that came out a couple years ago called the active view of reading. And it's it's all interesting stuff and it's great. What that's what's great about this this science speaker-1: He gets so excited about research. So, you know, Corey, he is an athlete and he's, you all this guy stuff, but you I you you get more excited about research, about reading than than basketball, and you know, in even though you're the basketball coach. So I know it's just a thing for you. It's it's which is beautiful because not all of us are gonna want to pick up these books and get excited about reading about it. So we know that there's so many pieces of this puzzle and Of course then in an id in an ideal world, every child would be exposed to an educator who has been trained extensively in all these strategies to help them with their skill development. So and I'm hoping that every school has that, not every school does. And in the early years primarily especially, I'm assuming, right? So let's say though, because the students that we have in our classrooms are the students we get. I'm a middle school teacher. let's say I've got a middle school teacher listening right now. She's a social studies teacher. She's like, look, I don't even know what half of those things were. That's not my training. My area of training is I can teach anything about social studies. I can teach anything about science. And I have kids who are struggling with the text. is there anything and I know that we can do a whole episode, I think, on interdisciplinary reading strategies. So I'm not asking for that. But what I'm asking is What are simple things? Is it really spending a lot of time delving into the vocabulary for that class and making sure that they understand the vocabulary of what they're reading? Is that would that be a simple, a very simplistic answer for a complex issue? speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. I think anybody that teaches the science, a math, of music, a hiss even history and even art and things like that, two things gotta be heavily considered when you're putting a text in front of them more things, but two things I think are heavily considered is the background knowledge. What what do the kids actually know when they're coming to the text? Because that could be a huge barrier to comprehension if every single thing, every single component of this text is brand new information to them. So now not only are they wrestling with the words, right, as they're working through it. they're now trying to to to put this new this new content, this new information into a a schema that they haven't had yet. so we have to be at the forefront of of building kids background knowledge on things before we actually get into it. And instead of saying, re read chapter two on the Gilded Age, right? Like how many kids know about the Gilded Age or are even excited about the Gilded Age at whatever juncture they're learning that information? So it's like how do we how can we build their background before they get into it so they have they they're bringing something with them to the text that's gonna put them in a position to understand it better. speaker-1: I like that because I think you used an example with me about baseball years ago. But but let's think about it this way. If we both had an excerpt in front of two excerpts in front of us, one was on fashion and one was on basketball. I would struggle. If they're telling me all about the point guard threw it over here and did this, I wouldn't even know what was happening in the game. And then if you ask me what happened in the game, I don't know if because those roles don't really mean anything to me. I love watching the basketball game. speaker-0: And you can read every word with no problem. speaker-1: I can read every word. I could even maybe read it with great fanfare and and and make it sound great. speaker-0: You definitely can read it with Gray Van Ferrer. speaker-1: But if you tell me something about Fashion Week and let me read that or about shoes, I'm I'm gonna go in and even add more details and wondering, well how does that compare to these shoes? so I think that we just need to be aware of that as educators. You know, I've I've told this story before, but it was many years ago. It was a very simple little excerpt my students were reading, and in it it mentioned a hammock. And I thought it was the easiest excerpt ever. And We were talking about it and they were saying some things that made no sense. And I have some really smart kids. And I I said, I'm I'm confused why you're confused. You know, help me understand and then the students said, well what is this word? What is this hammock thing? And I said, and I wanted to say, you don't know what a hammock is, but of course I didn't. I I stopped and I said, let me show you. So I hop I pulled up a picture of a hammock and they go, that thing. Okay. And as soon as they they had seen a picture of a hammock speaker-0: Had the internet back in those days. speaker-1: I know it, right? This was it was on the cave wall. We went over to the drawing and I said once upon a time Yes the ancient Egyptians used these no, so we I showed them a picture of a hammock and then they like, that thing. They've seen a and they'd never been in one. They you know, they so but as soon as they had that context, but I just made the assumption they had the vocabulary word to match it, they're smart kids, but it wasn't something that they would see. Now, kids that live down by the beach, they all know what a hammock is probably. So I do think that that's something that's important. Sometimes if you're getting a very bizarre answer, it's not that they don't have an understanding of the content. They don't have an understanding of the context or the of the the way that we're attaching it to what their prior knowledge is. speaker-0: Yeah, so I came across a very similar sentence in an article I read a number of years ago, and and the sentence was the horse has a smelly black frog. Now, most people like the way you're looking at me now and he's what? And he's smelly. You had no issue reading it, you had no vision no no issue envisioning it, like everything is there, but it has nothing to do with that. But somebody who's listening right now and they have an equ an equestrian background, they've dealt with horses before. They'll know wx exactly what I'm talking about. The frog is the bottom part of the hoof. And if the bottom part of the hoof is smelly in black, it's a sign that they have a thrush infection. Wow. And what's really interesting about this, we had a student here a number of years ago, this is she was probably in fifth grade and she had an equestrian background. She wrote horses. And I read this sentence, envisioned this black smell smelly frog on this horse. And we were reading in my class one day, the kids were reading, and I just go over and whisper. She's reading a horse book, of course, and I go over to her, I Hey, I said If I told you a a horse has a smelly black frog, a first grade sentence by the way, a horse has a smelly black frog, what does that mean to you? She looked up without even any hesitation and said, it has an affection in its hoof. And went right back to reading. My mind was below because I'm You're not smarter than me. I I can read But in that situation, yeah, that context, she has a schema, she has a schemata, she had the background, she had the experience of being around horses, being in the stable, interacting with horses, where I'm a city guy, like I've never been around horses, so To me, reading that same sentence, I would have got every comprehension question wrong that followed that, not because it was a a word reading issue, but it was a background knowledge issue. speaker-1: Beautiful example, really great example. So we know that that's important. We know that and I do think that there is a a large movement in schools to really make sure that we do have people who are are skilled, trained, who have studied the science of reading, but not all teachers are responsible for teaching those particular things as far as the phonemic awareness and things like that and and and really digging deeply, but rather that in our own classrooms, how do we do things like provide context? How do we make sure that the vocabulary words that we that we're helping them understand the vocabulary? So that's important. Something though I really want us to focus on today, and then I think as I said, we may even have a future episode even just on vocabulary, interdisciplinary reading, those kind of things, because it's important, is another piece of the problem that I hear teachers say often when they come here, when teachers come here for educator training, they say they don't like reading. You know, I can't even get them to want to read. They don't want to pick up a book. They hate reading. They won't read a whole book. They don't have the cognitive stamina to actually finish a book and there could be some parents who feel that same pain point as well. I'm at home, I want to encourage my child to read, and every time I look at them, they're looking everywhere but reading. and so I would really love for us to spend a few minutes talking about that. How do we get students in our classrooms, but also outside of school, how do we get them to become readers? And so what are some of the best important ways that we can build that? So before you answer that even in the classroom, let's look at it from the home perspective. Corey is the father of Six children. Legitimately six children. And they're phenomenal. And five of those children I've had the blessing of teaching. The sixth one, he's not here yet, but he will be I'll get fortunately get to teach him in a couple of years. But all six of his children, completely different personalities. Completely. They have some similarities, but completely different personalities, very different, different interests, different strengths, different weaknesses academically. all of them, you know, do share this sense of just being phenomenal young people. But they're all voracious readers. And so as a teacher, that's we love that. You know, we love when when when kids come to us and they're already voracious readers. So if we were to give advice to parents, because sometimes as teachers we do, we say, here's how you can help me at home. Yep. How did you create five children, and I'm assuming the sixth as well, who are voracious readers, but they're they're, you know, one of your kids is very kinesthetically wired. Like I'm assuming he probably is twirling while he's reading the book. Another little girl, Natalia, you have told her to put the book away because she she wants to do the book and nothing else, right? But all of your kids are just how did you do that? speaker-0: So yeah, we're we're we're we're definitely blessed in that fact and the funny thing is like I wouldn't even a attest it to like we we had we bought this like curriculum or I read about this particular practice and we did speaker-1: So you weren't doing the science of reading all this stuff with the metal? speaker-0: No. No. and I I don't even think I had an understanding of it when I first got in the game and in fact I didn't because I didn't come across it until like twenty nine eighteen, twenty nineteen I think. So this would have been back in two thousand seven when I think my our first kid was born. But I was I've always been in love with reading and and the things that are reading at the time. I I read one book called the Read Aloud Handbook. It was by Jim Treleese, and it was just it was a really, really fascinating book just about how the importance of read aloud and something I still hold to to this day. I think everybody, every s teet teacher in the world should read to their students and read aloud to their students, kindergarten through twelfth grade, all the way through. But that's an another conversation. So I remember reading the the intro part of it was either the introduction or the first chapter of this book, and he was using this story that he had heard or saw on the news about a kid who Aced the ACTs. He didn't know him wasn't a student of his or anything. And they he got like national attention because he's smart. And the newspapers, the the the news stations, people at National Enquirer were were going up to this family and saying, Okay, what did you do? Like, give us the juice. Like what was it? And they said, We we don't know what to tell you. We've never paid for any tutors. We've never done any of the Kaplan reviews. We didn't buy any ACT books. We we read aloud. to our kid from literally the womb till about sixth or seventh grade. And that's not sexy, right? There's no tabloids to say, go read aloud because it's it's funny 'cause you you can't really make it any sexier than it's super effective. Right. So we just took that, that idea and we just read aloud to our kids incessantly. Every single night we read aloud to our kids. So if you got young kids at home, don't put the tablet in front of Don't put a read aloud book in front of The the and there's there's brain research on this which is fascinating, but there's areas of the brain that light up when a kid is sitting with a parent and the voice of the parent is doing the reading, the brain is like on fire. I love it. It's it's really fascinating. I wish I could think of the re the the study that was done, but I watched it a number of years ago. it was a video and it was it was really fantastic. speaker-1: So if we could get parents, every parent just read aloud to their child, what a beautiful thing that would be. anything, right? And and and honestly it's good for the parent too because that forces us to put our phones down. And there's something very beautiful about thinking about a family sitting together, listening with parents there, even, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh grade. That's beautiful to think about that time. speaker-0: It's and it seems odd to like I'm not reading to my sixth grader like it's cra but if you've done this since the beginning and never strayed for speaker-1: Just you that's how you do it. speaker-0: that's how it is. And I here here's a real life example. My my youngest son who who has not attended RCA, he is in second grade. He's he's eight, first turned eight in August. And I had said to him right at the beginning of this school year in early August, I was like, I said 'cause we got away from it. Life is busy. W now we got high schoolers and boyfriends and girlfriends and I'm that's driving me crazy. But I kind of got away from reading to him. shame on me. But I went I said, you what, we gotta return to what we know. Kyler, I said, Kyler, I said, what book are you reading right now? He's reading some book that he got from the library. And I'm like, okay, I'm get the next one and I'll and I'll start reading it to you. We'll read it together like we used to do. And he looks at me, he's like, Dad, he's like, I'm eight. And I was like, No, what is going on? speaker-1: I've grown dad. speaker-0: I'm grown, I can do it he like a read myself. I'm like, son, I read to fourth and fifth graders every single day at my school. I said, I can read to you still. speaker-1: And they love being read too. And it does, I will tell you, help them understand even just the cadence of language and how to be maybe more dramatic and and and how to emphasize things. And and I think that, you know, just even being able to get up and and command a room with with with dramatic fanfare sometimes when necessary, or just even be able to you know, the intonation of your voice and things like that. I think that's great for to hear you model that and for students to hear us do that. speaker-0: There's just so much that that goes into it. If and if if it wasn't anything other than a positive association with reading going into kindergarten. I mean, imagine we're fighting a a very tough battle because of like the tablets and the phones and we're training kids' brains and even our brains to you give me a video that's longer than forty seconds or sixty seconds on Instagram, I'm not watching it. And I'm a grown man, right? I you already lose my interest 'cause we're being programmed by By technology. And technology could be good. But imagine the kid who has come to a kindergarten classroom who has been entertained by the screen their whole life, their four or five years before they go to school, and then you expect them to come to the carpet and sit down while you read a big book to them. Right. You're w no, where's the f where's the fame where's the fame from where's the scroll? This is boring. Can I get to the next thing? Or wait, why is there no moving images and why isn't there bing booms and pows and colors and lights and such? as opposed to the student who Is sitting on their grandpa's lap and their grandma's lap or their uncles and their aunts or whoever their caretaker is, mom, dad, big brother, big sister, and for years they're sitting on a lap or sitting next to somebody who loves them and they're enjoying that book with them. If anything other than that, they're gonna come into kindergarten with, Okay, this isn't a bad thing, this isn't a boring thing. Subconsciously, I love this right because of all the work that was done prior to that. So that's speaker-1: And how important is it for the students also to read aloud themselves? speaker-0: Yeah, so especially in those early years, they they look 'cause you know they're gonna pick the same the the red pajamas. Drive me cra drive drove me cra speaker-1: I love me some Llama Llama Red Pajama, reading it to my grandson. That's our favorite. speaker-0: You know what we gotta do? There's a there's a a radio show i and they have video of rappers that read they gotta rap llama llama rap pajama. We might need to do that for you. Glorilla has the best one that I've seen so far and Ludacris did really good job too, but I don't think they have anything on you. So we speaker-1: I don't know, I don't know, but I I do love that book and he lo and he loves that book. That in something called Glove Glove Fish. Glove Glove speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Fish is another he's my my grandson turns one this week, so to give you context there. But but it is interesting because even at six months old, hearing the cadence of my voice, he he would sit there and become transfixed, mesmerized and smile, even if of course he didn't understand all the vocabulary in in this but Just I think that the cadence and the and the the repetition and all that kind of thing I think is is is just beautiful for them to hear. And I love that. You know, something else that I heard recently and I and I completely believe it is that, you know, we do have students who are more socially isolated as a whole than in previous generations. And I think we all have realized that this is problematic. You know, kids are isolated, they're you know, on their phones sometimes even when they're sitting together. You know, they're instead of interacting with one another. And it was talking about having a a rich environment where students do read novels. You know, we we for so long there's been a a big push on making sure that they can read nonfiction so that they can understand academic text, which we know is important. Very. But and in as in doing that, I think that we've lost the perspective of then why just not pick up a good story? And part of it has been that when you hear a story, it really helps you understand why do people make the choices they make? How are they what are they thinking? How do you even read people's Dialogue, what could that dialogue actually say about what they're actually feeling? Why do you think they did it that way? I'm I'm reading holes, I was reading holes aloud today. Awesome book with the sixth grade and they love it. They kept saying are we read are we gonna read any book today? We're gonna read book today, which tells you that right there. They they can't wait to get into the next part. And I can only read them a little bit at a time because, you know, we've got all these other things we're also doing. But there was a character that was just like being pushed on why, you know, what he wanted to do with his life and how he had gotten into this, you youth detention camp and the things he'd done wrong. And he No, I have you know, I just want to dig holes. Well, of course that's not what he wants to dig. So I was trying to get them to say, Why would he say that? And it took them a long time to really understand why would somebody ever say they want to dig holes? At first they were like, Well, 'cause he wants to dig holes. I said, Is that what he really wants? So just to be able to talk about why do people say the things they say? Why do people what do they you know, what could lead somebody to just respond in a way that's not what you expect them to respond? I think all those things are really good for helping with that social emotional intelligence. speaker-0: Yeah. And we were pushed, I mean, when Common Core came down, was it 2010? I think they were they they made this this big shift towards that the informational style, the informational text type reading. And it was good. It it needed to be talked about, needed to be said, and they pushed for that fifty fifty because primarily in those early years at K to five, it was the heavy, heavy focus on story with little informational text. Right. And then as they transitioned from middle school to high school, that's where it got super informational text heavy. When again, nothing bad when the frame informational text kids got Be able to to to be able to process those type of texts. But man, I we cannot discount the power of a fictional text because, like you said, there's there's so many things you can glean from it and opens worlds to worlds that you may not be familiar with. from a personal standpoint, there's been a number of fictional texts that like I will say literally changed my life. And it's funny, it's like it's this fictional story. How on earth could it have such an impact? Sharon Draper wrote a book called Out of My Mind. And if you're not familiar with it, it's it's about a girl who is like a I think she's parab she has cerebral palsy. She she can't speak. She doesn't have control over hands. She doesn't have control over a lot of basic functions. She's a middle schooler. I think she's like in sixth grade, fifth grade or something. And like she said, she can't speak. She has no way to besides like a communication board. That she can barely use her hand to point to the right thing. But in her mind she's a genius, like the literal smartest person in the school. And we know that because we're reading it from the reader standpoint. But I mean talk and tell it like she knows the answer to every single question, every single class, but she never gets to to shine because of that. So story goes on, she gets this this machine that allows her to talk and then she gets to start to kind of show a little bit. And i I won't ruin the story, but it's a really, really life-changing text because I have a special needs niece. And unfortunately, I was very small minded when it came to it because I I've always been nice to any type of kids that I can't even when I was a y a youngster, I was never like mean to to s kids with special needs or special abilities. But I always did the same thing with all of them. I would go to the He Hey how's it going? man, what's your name? it's Kim wow and thinking in my mind being speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: kind. They obviously can't process it because of the situation that they're in. And I read this book and I'm like, I am such a jerk, man. I'm so How about I never even thought that these kids that I've come across my whole life, whether it was in a classroom, in a store, in a mall, that I would go up to him and be so rude to talk to him like that. So it changed me. So the way and I was doing that with my niece, but now, I mean she's a teenage girl. Every time I see her, I home and say, Girl, tell me all I want to know all the T. Who who's the kid? Who's your boyfriend? There better not be no boyfriends coming after me. I treat her literally and talk to her just like I would talk to my own daughters, our our girls and boys here. speaker-1: And you may be one of the only people who who gives her that gift. speaker-0: And who knows if she's even processing any of it, but it really opened my eyes to the possibility that you know what, there there is a there might be something else in there and I don't wanna be contributing to the I guess the quote unquote baby talk that she's gonna get her prior whole life. speaker-1: That is beautiful. And I and I know that you are definitely her favorite uncle. I know she adores you. I know I know she adores you, but I did know that backstory and I I love it. speaker-0: She's dope. speaker-1: There's so many other things I want to ask you about, but what I do wanna do first is we're gonna take a quick break because you actually could see Corey teaching his class as genius as he is and wonderful as he is, and also other teachers here at the Ron Kirk Academy. So I wanna take a quick break so you can hear a little bit more about the educator training programs that we have here. speaker-0: Imagine a school where students are excited to learn. Educators feel confident and equipped, and the culture is thriving. That's what every educator wants, but finding effective strategies in today's demanding environment can feel overwhelming. And you deserve support. The Ron Clark Academy is a nonprofit school and educator training facility in Atlanta. Our nationally recognized educators still teach and lead, so we understand both the challenges and the possibilities. By attending RCAEXP and our other professional development programs, you can observe effective teaching and action, learn proven strategies from practicing educators, and leave ready to adapt them for your own students in school. Thousands of educators attend and learn from us every year, and we would love for you to be next. So come see it, understand why it works, and make it your own. Visit RCAEXP.com to register for one of our professional development experiences today. speaker-1: So Corey, we've talked about your children and your role as a father, even your role as a a phenomenal uncle, but I wanna talk about Corey the child. So so speaker-0: You sure? speaker-1: listening to you now, someone who does not know your background may say, well, he was that kid in school, he was always the academic, he was the one who was obsessed with research and he was in the back corner of the classroom with a book in his hand at all times. That's kind of how you might sound to somebody, but I know that you're very open about that's not who you were at all. And you have been very candid. You were you know, greatly loved by your family, but your family did not have a lot of resources. So one of the big challenges I think for teachers is I'm getting students who may not be in a techno not technology rich, in a book rich environment. I think that's, you know, part of just the the the recent passing of Dolly Part and how just everybody's heart just melted even more, those who were not aware that for years, years sending books to children and countless books, millions and millions of books to children. It's it's phenomenal. So what do we say to someone who says, I've got a lot of students coming to me, there there are no books in our home. And I think the best way to answer that first is to talk about you. So how did you become this man sitting here who is just so has such such a deep love for reading and who believes in it so wholeheartedly and it has turned your children into readers and our students in this building. What? What did a teacher do or what what happened to make you this? speaker-0: Yeah, so when I think back to like even like my elementary years and like even in my house, like did we have books? Like was their books. I remember my sister was like she had a couple of babysitters club books, not the new graphic novel ones, but you know the old ones, like Christy's big idea and such. And I remember like I wasn't reading that, but there was one book that I read a couple of times for maybe any other reason. That it was the only book, one of the only books in the house was a book called Homer Price, which I haven't even seen since 1990 something. But I remember in sixth grade, I had an English language art teacher named Mrs. Otati. And in our school we had the in our middle school was like seven or eight periods, I can't remember what it was, but they had this new initiative because a lot of the kids that were coming to the school were coming from of from like the hood. And they knew a lot of kids were going home to situations that would have disallowed them to do their homework because of extenuating circumstances, right? But they still wanted us to get this stuff done. So they created a flex period at the end of the day. So every student at the last period of the day went back to their home rooms and they had 45 minutes, 50 minutes to work on homework. So I went back to Miss Otati, who's my homeroom teacher, and she when we didn't have anything to do or we finished up early She didn't want us just kind of scribbling her putzing around. So I remember she gave she gave me a book, a goosebumps book by Arnold Stein. It's like famous, famous. so much longevity. And I remember she gave it to me and I read it and I I was like, This is incredible. The chapter cliffhangers drove me bananas. It was what he did exactly what authors needed like you gotta read the next chapter I'm just somebody about to die or somebody about to blow up. So I remember reading the first book and telling her I I th I loved it and thought it was great. So I her being a teacher and just having that that foresight, she did what Netflix does a really good job of doing and instead of trying to find another but she gave me the next book as soon as I finished that one. And it another Goosebumps book because hey, it's what I what I obviously enjoyed. And she did the simplest thing in the world, which still I'm like, did I really fall for that? What's what's wrong with me? She said, she got me an index card, and on the index card she wrote that first book that I read. And she said, Listen, every book that you read will mark it on this index card. You can't touch this index card. I'm gonna put it safe and I'm gonna lock it away. And the only reason the only way you can access it is when you hand me the the next book that you finished. So I'm like what? And then I watched her walk over and put it into a card catalog. speaker-1: Beautiful. So those of you who are younger, the card catalogue was a way that we would organize our books and libraries and yes, a drawer with little cards on every book. But she put it in that special drawer. speaker-0: Yep, and I couldn't access it unless I read a book and that pushed me. speaker-1: And it's interesting because there wasn't like a cash prize at the end of this, there wasn't a free pizza. speaker-0: No, the ins the incentive was to be able to write the next book on that index card, which was just like I said, it's insane. And I went insane. Like I r I probably read f thirty five to fifty books that year, mm predominantly being Goosebumps. I remember j again a good teacher, she ran out of books of those that I that I had, so she let me go to the other sixth grade ELA teacher's room to go grab, see if she had any ones that Miss O'Todie didn't have. So even the like the collaboration said, Hey, let this boy come down, he's reading, he's going crazy. And so they they let me go between the classrooms to grab and borrow books at kinda at my whim and that that's kinda where it started. and that's probably that's probably my earliest memory of when I became like enthralled with this idea of reading. speaker-1: Well, I love so many parts of that story 'cause there's a lot of lessons in there. There first of all the fact that she cared enough to figure out what would you like. You know, we all love classic literature. I love quality classic literature and not that goosebumps is not, but i if we were gonna put down, the top twelve, you know, literary you know, literary accomplishments and and things most people would not say goosebumps. And so I think that's a message for teachers first of all, is that It could be something it could be Captain Underpants. It could be Goosebumps. It could be something because it got you excited and where you wanted to read more and you wanted to make her proud of you, I think, and proud of yourself. I guess that feeling of I can do this, I can do hard things. I so I love that piece of it. So I love that it it was goosebumps. I love that. I love that she was smart enough to have the forethought that, if it's if he likes this one, I g I got unlimited things for him to read for a while to keep him reading. And I love that she just pulled you aside and really took a moment with you to help you. And I think that perhaps how speaker-0: Do speaker-1: how do you because that's one of the things you do really well, Corey, is that at all times our students here expect to always have a book with them. Whether yes, we may be studying certain pieces of literature in classes or different excerpts from literature, but they should always have a book that they're just reading on their own. And it's impossible for us as teachers, I can't read all the books to know what all the books are about. So how do you even get students where you can kind of guide them to help them find those those pieces those pieces of literature that they're interested in. How do you do that? speaker-0: It's a great question. And it's a question that I get all the time from like parents and even other educators as as as we function as a professional development school when they come and say, Man, I just I got this k they hate reading. They just don't like reading. They will explicitly say I don't like reading. And I don't believe that. I don't think there's anything there's anybody that doesn't like reading. It's just what as a system w we have dictated what reading is, right? And it's reading an anthology, a basil, it's reading the curriculum, it's reading short excerpts. All That's all reading, but it's not the o that's not reading in its totality. I remember a few years ago we were doing a workshop here. So probably had a hundred fifty teachers in my room and I'm talking about something similar to this and a guy raises his hand very candidly in front of everybody and says, No no, I don't like reading and I f I was a little taken back that he he would do this during a workshop, but I loved it, it was a great opportunity. So I asked him, I said he said, No, there's nothing I like reading and I'm like, I said, Okay. I said Where you from? And he I'm from Iowa. And I'm I said, Do you do you follow like like Iowa college, like the Hawkeyes or the the Cyclones? Do you Iowa, Iowa State? Who are he's like, I'm a Hawkeye fan. through and through. And I'm like, as football, baseball side, what are he's like, football, I love Hawkeye football. I'm like, I said, So how do you find out about like what's going on within the organization? What new recruits they're getting? He's like, on I read on ESPN, and I was like, Boom! I was like, So you speaker-1: See the light bulb go off. speaker-0: Yeah, it's kinda like da like and that's really what it is. It's when we we need to help children especially understand and value all types of reading experiences, right? like you said, Captain Underpants and the Diary of a Wimpy Kids and the Cat Ninjas and and the Babysitter's Club graphic novel version. It's just one of those things where it's like we have to understand, okay, what what's gonna be attractive to kids? There's gr Shakespeare. It's great. There's there's a a great canon of literature that's out there and been and it has run high school classrooms for for a century now. But ultimately we we have to understand that kids' tastes don't necessarily match adult tastes. Rarely do they do. Right? So if you're a parent and you're buying or a teacher and you buy all these texts that you love and that you grew up on and it was Sarah plain and tall for you Yeah, that might not be the text for the kids that sit in front of you. You're right. Right. Fantastic text, Newberry Award winner, but ultimately it it's not gonna to match the interests of the kids so the kids in your classroom. speaker-1: something that a lot of teachers and a lot of parents ask about graphic novels. speaker-0: Game changers. Game changers. speaker-1: Corey, it's just I'll pick I'm I'm speaking sarcastically, but Corey it's just pictures. It that's not reading. What how do you what do you say to the naysayers that don't find the value in graphic novels? speaker-0: Yeah, and it's funny because when kids come here from the from all the schools that they come to, yeah. And we we make a mistake and say, listen, that's not real reading. Like it's I've heard teachers, I've heard librarians call it junk reading or not real reading. Or it doesn't count. And it drives speaker-1: Or doesn't count. speaker-0: me crazy. And I ch and I would challenge anybody who says or even had that thought process just to think a little bit about the the first of all, graphic novels they're they're not like this genre. It's a format. Right. It's it's gonna follow this specific format. It's not gonna be like prose where it's just linear and just words. But there's a lot of things that you have to do as a reader to ensure that you're comprehending what you're reading, right? That we've always talked about the metacognitive process. Think about when the big complaint, there's not a lot of words and right, but now kids are being challenged with reading short amount of text and matching it with pictures that don't read in a linear fashion, and they have to think about this. text the whole time as they're seeing a question asked in this particular panel that you thought was answered in this panel, but that doesn't make sense with the question they asked. So no, I wasn't supposed to read up, I was supposed to come read down and then across and then over. So the brain has to simultaneously process text and images as they're reading and and processing the the words. So it's really like complex stuff and a little known fact, there's more rare words per graphic novel than there is per regular text or prose text, right? I think it's like fifty two or fifty three and a half rare words that you'll find in a graphic novel, than you will find in a in a Yeah, it's interesting. speaker-1: See, I love that. I love that because as someone who teaches writing, sometimes we we want students to understand that sometimes less is more. Right. If you can say it with fewer words, y a and I think that's kind of what the graphic novel how do you choose the the specific word, the the more rare word perhaps that's really gonna tell it in a better way. I think that that's a beautiful idea that kind of passes over to perhaps helping them as writers as well. speaker-0: Yeah, and it's one of those things where this this reading this whole reading deal, I mean, we we have to obviously we we talked about like science reading and and systematic, cumulative, explicit instruction that has to happen for kids to actually learn how to read. 'Cause that's the f first and foremost, that's the most speaker-1: Right. If they can't read none of this other stuff is gonna matter at all if they can't read. speaker-0: Right. now developing the love of reading, that that's a passion of mine, but my and my first and primary passion is okay, they gotta know how to read, right? 'Cause once they can, that's where we can start to develop the love. And I think that could be done in tandem as we're working through the the processes, but it's one of those things where like volume volume matters, right? in any realm of in any thing outside let's think of outside of school, if you wanna get better at something, what what should you do? Right? If and I use this example a lot. If you could pick a s if you could pick a surgeon to perform a surgery on you and the surgery that you need, this surgeon surgeon A's done it ten times, but surgeon B's done it ten thousand times, who you picking? It's not we're not gonna argue. You're gonna pick the one that's done it ten thousand times because they got they got ye they're veterans. They got years in the game. They're seasoned. They've seen it all. So it's the same thing in the reading classroom like Kids need to spend voluminous amounts of time in actual in text, not at the the expense of explicit instruction, but nonetheless impaired with it, they gotta spend a lot of time reading. And graphic novels is one of those things where if we show kids, yes, this is real reading, and they read twenty, thirty, forty, fifty graphic novels now, who's gonna argue that volume is a h that that real reading isn't happening. It's insanity to me. speaker-1: And I and I do th yeah, you have to have the skill bef before you get this will to read. But I do think there's so many things that we do have some students who have been taught the skills, but then they they come up with this I hate reading. And so I love that I think that you are very skilled at creating people who actually say, No, I love to read and making it cool to love to read. And so let's talk about a few of those other things that teachers often wonder about. So, you know, some teachers we understand you you've got to teach the text you've been given to teach. For sure. But one thing I think that sometimes maybe diminishes the love or the joy of maybe there is a novel that your district has said, You gotta read this nov this is the novel, y'all are gonna study this novel, that's it. and I do novel studies with my kids and pull out things, but I think that sometimes if they s feel like I'm only reading this So I can answer ten questions at the end of every chapter. It it's it's it's that same thing of am I learning this for the test or am I learning this because, this is a story. I get to I get to b delve into this story and understand these characters and make them a part of my life for just a a brief moment in time. I think that, you know, maybe that's where we go awry. Well, yeah we gotta make sure they read it though. I gotta have those ten, you know, those ten questions. Yes, you can ask questions, but I feel like I think that sometimes that's what diminishes their love for the text is because they feel like I'm only doing this to accomplish this rather than allowing myself just to enjoy the story or to respond to that literature in a different way, perhaps even. speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that I think you hit the the nail on the head with like two two specific problems when it comes to like like a whole class novel. Now I'm not anti-hole class novel. I think you do whole class you do a a a wonderful job. Pammy ha Pammy J. Haskin, she does an incredible job with a whole class novel, but there's certain things that you have to understand going into it, right? And one of them is like, okay, what what is why do we have to have ten questions? I remember a district that I previously worked for, we had t the teachers got together to to help with the curriculum and it created. l a literal ten short answer questions per chapter of a text short and not even talking about A B s like it like just some quick recalls. speaker-1: First of it'll take y'all year to read the darn book. speaker-0: That that herein lies a problem with whole class novels. Like we if I come to you and you're like I ask your district leaders like, Okay, so you're doing whole class gr that's great. Well how how do you do it? Well, how many I always ask, Well, how many do you get through in a quarter? Because typically with ten questions per chapter and this and making dioramas and all this this cute Pinteresty type stuff, and it took you six weeks to get through a a hundred and thirty page book, so you're only reading you're telling me as a school, as a as a classroom, you're only reading three, maybe four novels a year? It's not enough. Right? They have to s it's gotta be a lot faster. And another thing that that's that I was painfully guilty of is I just I remember we we were reading Shiloh as a as a whole class. Fan I mean fantastic. That now that's a book I've never heard. speaker-1: Love the dog Well I'm I'm a where the red fern grows fan. That's my speaker-0: It's funny, I used to say this joke about like d how many dead dogs can be speaker-1: Exactly. speaker-0: I don't know how people still own dogs. Like you read sh where red foreign girls sounded old yeller. old yeller, stone fox. And I'm like, the emotional damage. Everybody's dog doll dogs. Of these dogs. speaker-1: Well there's a book called Dogs Go to Heads. speaker-0: Yeah, right. So so we're reading Shiloh again, just one of those books that I don't think I've ever come across that somebody didn't like. But nonetheless, and I was I was again this was at my old school and I was like, Okay, we this dish or stuff, let me see what Teachers Pay Teachers has and I went on to Teachers Pay Teachers and I found this like definitive guide to Shiloh and I like, shoot, this is like man, this is look at all the stuff that this is great. And I bought it and I downloaded it. It was like two hundred thirty-five pages long of of of activities. And I got to thinking, I look at Shiloh and how many pages that text is, it's like a hundred and forty, fifty, maybe. Double the length. And I'm like, how the heck do I got more work than pages there are in this particular text? So it's just one of those things where we just we're we're kinda stepping on the work too much. Like we're drawing this thing out where we don't necessarily speaker-1: More like looking at the characters and why they're making the choices they are and you and and teaching them things like literary elements, like w you know, what are the types of literary elements that th this author uses or the types of style of writing or the way that they use dialogue or you know, ways that can help them as a writer. Let's look at excerpts and let's let's let's try to create some of our own that follow this type of, you know, style. So I think those are the ways that you get students excited about what it is they're reading personally, and that's been my experience. So speaker-0: Not more work, less reading. More reading, but with more intentional work. speaker-1: Right. And even just I don't think we should should underestimate, even though I'm very big on students doing a lot of writing, I don't think we should underestimate the importance of just meaningful dialogue around it. Which is another it which prompts me to think of another thing. So let's talk about some of these other things that teachers tend to use sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes they're not given a choice, right? So we acknowledge that some of you are doing exactly what you're told to do, and so you gotta make the best of it. But let me give you some of these things. I you to tell me if you think they're a good idea, a bad idea, or it it kind of just depends on the situation. Okay. How to use it. So for example, I love that this teacher of yours that she Miss tell me her name again. speaker-0: So time. speaker-1: Mrs. O'Tati, we gotta remember Miss O'Tati, because she's the bomb. But I love that she had you write that down. So some teachers may have said, see, reading logs. That's a reading log. And that really wasn't a reading log. So hurtful. What i right. It that's that's you know, but teachers, you know, some teachers say reading logs and part of the reason is how else am I gonna know they read it? So that's a two part question. First of all, yes to reading logs or or no, and then if no, how well how do I know they actually read what they're reading? speaker-0: Yeah, resounding no. and anybody listening to this would be lying through their teeth if they said at some point if their kid had a reading log they never not signed it once, not knowing whether their kid read or not. And I would speaker-1: No, no, I remember though, when I was like a younger kid, there was that thing or where you could like earn or actually I think that was my memory of my child. I don't think Pizza Hut even existed when I was a younger kid. But anyway, pizza like that you could get a free pizza if you read so many books. And I do think the kids who are gonna be reading anyway, they were very Right. They were driven by that. But yes, for the kids that are not it somehow I guarantee there's been more arguments that have happened in households where parents trying to get a kid to read for the reading log. speaker-0: Yeah, and ki kids will lie and parents and adults will lie even more. Right. speaker-1: Yeah. But but how d all right, so I'm a teacher and I've asking my kids to all be reading a book and how I can't have read all of their books, that's impossible. So how do I know that they're actually reading the book and they're not just staring at it? Give us some ideas of what teachers can do to see no, they really are reading something right now. speaker-0: Yeah, I think a really easy one is just like a conversation, right? It's a it's a minute or two conversation where you can I've never read all the books that my kids have have read, so but I I'm s think I'm smart enough and I think any adult is smart enough to be able to look at least at a page or two we 'cause we we re we know story. We've there's not really much under the sun that we haven't encountered yet in terms of like what happens in a text. So you look at a page before, you get some of the characters' names, you just say, Hey, what's going on with with with so and so in this particular It looks like she broke up with so can tell me about that. Right. And if I mean obviously th well, let me tell you obviously They they read, right? But if there's a situation where they can't explain who the main character like simple recall questions, right? Who the main character was or what just happened in the the previous chapter that they read, a a different conversation could take place, right? Because obviously you didn't read, right? So let's talk about why let's talk about why that didn't happen. It might be a book that hey, a book that's speaker-1: And maybe it's i it is a book that they hate. But they should learn how to do hard things so they have to finish it if they started it. Now I do think kids should have to l do hard things, but what would you say to that teacher that's like, No, you're gonna you're gonna finish that book before you get another one? That's a that's a mistake too, right? It's a book speaker-0: Yeah, I used to speaker-1: that you are needing to do as a class speaker-0: Right, right. But as a from an independent standpoint for allowing kids that that free choice to read. I mean, I think adults, don't we do the same thing? We gotta f we can't forget that they're human. Yes. Right? And they do they don't function at the same developmental level we do, but they the s the same basic needs and ideas, I don't think have an age barrier on So if as an adult I mean, have you ever picked up a book and read and then said, it's just not what I thought it was, you put it down. Right. Did you feel bad? Did you feel like a loser? Did you feel like a speaker-1: Save myself time if it wasn't something that I wasn't gonna enjoy. speaker-0: Right. And I used to put like this arbitrary number of pages, like thirty pages, get to get to chapter six and I s and then then maybe thinking that they'll get hooked by then, but if they didn't, well I don't read 'til chapter five. If I pick up a book and I don't like it within the first few pages, I'm putting it down. Right? And so I try to give them that same affordance, like, okay, yeah. Now at the worst level if it could be is they abandon every single book that they put in front of Then it again, this is where challenge teachers you got to know your kids. You gotta know what type of text that you have at your home. Know your kid though and figure out what is it? Are the books that they're picking up? Are they picking it up because the s the the smartest kid in the class is picking up? Are they picking up because their friend is reading? Why did they pick up that book? And why did you abandon it? And then a at if at all that fails, you say, okay, let's figure out last thing you read that you liked, what is it? And then you start there and that conversation is gonna give you kind of guidance on to how to guide this kid to find the book that really is gonna kind of keep their attention and interest. speaker-1: One of my favorite things that you do early on when you became employed here at the school, you asked if you could take a small group of students to the bookstore. So, educators, I understand this is not something all of us have the luxury of doing, but but let me tell you that perhaps you could do it the way that that Corey asked. Corey asked what is the budget for books for this year? And there was a small budget because we already had a lot of books, it was a small budget, and he said, Could I take just a small group of students to represent their class, take them to Barnes and Noble? and have them select the books that we're gonna buy for our class to have in our class. Now I know right now some educators are saying there's some books we're not allowed to have in our classroom. Yes, you're gonna have to have the list of things you can and can't have. We understand there's so many things that that cause frustration for teachers right now and so we don't want to diminish that. But but it was a beautiful thing to see just these images even of these students, they are really putting a lot of heart and soul into wanting to pick the right books for their classmates to represent things that they would find valuable. But I'm assuming that in that experience you learned a lot too about what's kind of the thing right now? Like what is it that kids are reading? And I think for parents too, how often do we go to a bookstore with your kid? Hopefully that's something that you could think about doing if you haven't. Or library. Or library, which we gotta get to that piece next. so when you would take them to the bookstore, tell educators sort of how that what that was like. What did you do? speaker-0: Yeah, so I I think it all started when I I I I like to have control over things and so for years I would always buy the books that I know the kids would want to read, right? Go perusing the Scholastic Magazine, Amazon, whatever. Until I came to a realization, is like, yeah, I make some good choices sometimes, but I've got a number of books on the shows that haven't been touched. Or literally, I can bring them back to the store. And I bought them six years ago and they would return it with no little to no issue. And I'm like, man, I said, well who better to help figure out what little pubescent girls and boys wanna read than these pubescent boys and girls. So the idea came to me is like, you know what? I said, I wonder if I just relinquish the the power over this part of the class to the kids and allowed them to kind of guide the purchasing of the books. And it it was a it was a whole lesson that I had with them. It wasn't just like, you get a book and you get a book. Right. They really we had a conversation about budget Right, this is our budget, so we can't be going to buy the hardcover all the hardcover books because they're more expensive. But it was like, okay, what did we look for in a book? What are we thinking about? Who who we think we we've been together for a while now. Who who would who might enjoy this book in the class? What books might you enjoy? So we went to a store and they perused the aisles and it was great. We made a mess of this place, but we put everything back. But what they would have to do is they would have to find a book, they'd have to read the back of it and start to think, okay, who's this for is this good for me? Could I could really see so and so really like this book. And if it was a go, they would bring it over to a table to where I was sitting, sipping my coff my coffee or whatever. And they would get a pile of books and we'd go through them and they'd have to get not like a presentation, but just talk me through the purchases that they made. And I told them, This is really important. It's not just about shopping my books, but this is like a legacy that you're gonna be leaving for future classrooms for years upon years because at the end of the day, I'm gonna say this library was curated by kids. Right. Now they had guidance, but kids made the choices for this book because who's going to do the majority of the reading in this classroom? Kids. So that's what kinda prompted it and it i in my opinion was a wild success. They really enjoyed it and we still have we've lost a lot of the books because they got damaged so much from kids reading a map over and over and over. That's speaker-1: But you want a book that's well read, right? speaker-0: what you want. speaker-1: And you know, I love the other the underlying message of that too was that they weren't picking up books for themselves. So I think there's even just a whole lot of that character building there that that intention of thinking of other students and what they might like. I think that's something that some of those kids may be more inclined even to buy books as gifts, you know, in the future because they start to realize, this reminds me of so and so. This would be so or or even just to share a book with a p particular classmate because now they're not only thinking about what I like to read, they're thinking about what do my classmates have interest in and how might I share that. Now something else you just briefly touched on that we've got to talk about very quickly is that I think that in schools so often we know we have our school libraries and or our classroom libraries, but I do think that underutilized are our public libraries. And you have done a great job. Corey is best friends with a public librarian who comes here and helps make sure everybody has the library core c talk about advice for teachers for that because that's a free resource with all the things we're worried about having to charge. speaker-0: Yeah, shout out to Ashley Daniel. she's one of my favorite parents in the whole universe and her kid went here. That's how we first first met. Zoe graduated in twenty twenty one, I think it was. speaker-1: A big reader too. speaker-0: Horacious, just super smart. I think she she's going to she might go to NYU, somewhere some school in New York right now, like full scholarship, she's a genius. But nonetheless, when I met Ashley and she told me that she was a librarian at a local Atlanta library, and we we're just trying to figure out ways to partner with to ensure that now we're blessed to have a great library here at this school. We we are our leaders here have earmarked funds every single year to ensure that we have new, engaging, rich text for kids to have access to. But there's never enough. There's never enough book. In school, in my opinion. So we we started to kind of plan out how to help these kids get access to books. And Ashley, in the the West End Public Library, they had access to Hoopla, which is it's a digital resource. but nonetheless, what Ashley would do is she would help our kids and some for the first time, some for maybe a renewal, but have access to a public library. She would help them. She would bring all the the applications or the the information sheets or whatever that the library needed. We would send them home with the kids as a homework assignment, and if parents filled it and brought brought back and I gave all to Ashley Ashley Daniel and she would take me to the library, process all, come back with the library cards and pass them out to our kids. So at least for their time here until the card expires, they would have access to to not only digital text but also physical text if they went to the library. speaker-1: Beautiful. And so that I think that is something a resource that we don't use nearly mu enough. I think that generations ago everybody knew about the public library. But it I mean honestly there's so many other resources at the public library as well that are so valuable. So I think it's beautiful to to build that relationship with the library in your town and and ask that librarian to even come to your class or to come to or you go visit them at this and and and see what could be possible because I have a feeling there are a lot of librarians out there who really want that opportunity itching to do And that's that's why they do what they do. speaker-0: Zoe graduated in 2021. She's been here every single year. So that's for five years after her daughter graduated that she still comes back every single year to to help us with this process. speaker-1: So we've talked about a lot of things that I think are questions teachers have. You know, do you do you give kids choice? Yes. Graphic novels are yes. Reading logs? No. trying to ask kids about if they've read, absolutely. You know, having conversations with them. y providing opportunities for kids to to try to help, you know, with the ideas of what books they can read as far as as long as they meet the requirements that your district has and that kind of thing. one other thing I often hear people ask about is audiobooks. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So if I'm listening to the book, does that count? Do I have to be looking at it as well? is it okay to let students listen to the audio version? If they say, Well, yes, I read it, well can I go home, can I listen to the audio version? Tell us what you think. speaker-0: I'm a huge fan, huge fan of audiobooks, from an accessibility standpoint, because I mean you can put a a a pretty hard text in front of a kid that the the text alone might be too hard for them to kind of work through, but if they have the audio version going with it, it's gonna do that decoding piece for Now, obviously if there's a decoding issue, there's interventions and things that need to happen so that kid can be brought up to speed in the most systematic way possible. But for right now, if we want and this is a very important piece of instruction, they need to have access To grade level texts. The question you commonly get is what if they can't read the words? One audiobook isn't a an amazing way to help the kids, if they have the book in front of them, to help ease the accessibility of that text. But even if they don't, they can still listen to it and still pick up on the same literary elements, the the problems, the the the the plot, the all the things that are going on as a kid who does have full access and can read the text on their own. So I'm a massive, massive fan of audiobooks and I don't I don't think you ever age out of them, right? I think I mean you listen to audio. I listen to audiobooks, we listen to the speaker-1: Podcasts and audiobooks and when I'm driving, I mean I love music, but I've gotten where I just trying to make the most of all the time that I I can. And I will say, you know, for teachers, I think a good clue is too, let's say you are reading a text with students and and you're like, you know what, I can't remember in the next two chapters, is that when this happens? You know, you even if you've read the text before, right? It it so I will listen to audiobook and I'll put the speed you know, g I like to talk fast, listen fast, read fast anyway. But you can actually speed up the audiobook even two times and on the way to work, you've just heard the two chapters you're about to do with your class or whatever and say, Okay, what was the most important part of that? What you know, it it's a way t as a time saving tip also for you as a teacher. I think it's something that we don't always access the opportunity for that as well. speaker-0: And as family as familiar units it's like what wherever you're go baseball practice, you're going you're gonna drive an hour there, hour back, you're going family vacation where you're driving. It's like a it's a really easy way to seize the moment. So instead of like allowing the device to the individual devices to dictate like I headphone I got the headphones on that I'm watching a movie and she got the headphones on, listen to a book is a family. Nobody can complain 'cause they can't go nowhere. Right. Right. So it's just one of those easy ways to to kind of seize the moment and capture this idea of listening to a shared text. So it's gonna build bonds within the family unit. And again just has benefits for when they enter the classroom as well. So yeah, massive, massive fan of audiobooks. speaker-1: Corey, I feel like we've touched on so many things here. This is I I c and we could pr you and I could probably sit here for another three hours. speaker-0: I saw I feel like I've been here for like ten I feel like this is like fifteen minutes. speaker-1: I know it, right? This is how this is how we roll. But and I do think we do need to come back later in a future episodes, definitely because I know that we could talk for a whole episode just about vocabulary development and tips and and strategies for teachers to use. and and and also ways that we can continue to use it in our interdisciplinary studies. But I want to thank you. I think that there's so many key things here. I mean we we know first of all the science of reading is a must. we have to we it it's it is a positive change that we have that in schools, people are recognizing this now and they're actively working to get training for teachers who need it and to hire people who understand it. But once students do know how to read, it's a continuous process throughout their lifetime to be able to read more and more a difficult text. We want them not to hate it. We don't want them to think that they're reading just to take the test. We want them to think that they're reading because it opens up so many worlds for them. And so ways that you shared about, you know, making them enjoy it, having conversations about it, giving them choices just even that teacher who took a moment with you and made you feel like you were accomplishing something by reading that book and just writing it down. Things like that I think are game changers not only for you but for so many other students as well. So I hope that the teachers will take some of those things to heart and and at least if they just implement a few of those things. And so as we wrap up, I guess then if I were to ask you if what is one thing that you would encourage teachers if they haven't to go back and try? What would you say would be one the the one thing let try this? speaker-0: a a really easy one. We talk about like the one percenters here, the the one percent thing that we're gonna do on a daily or yearly level to get better. It's read aloud. Like revisit that. I and I I have to say that because a lot of schools don't do it. Right. And it's really crazy to me. It's it's I call it low hanging fruit. Like it's right there. It's not gonna cost money. It's gonna be a walk down to your library at in your school or in your class. And but find a text that's gonna be just an an awesome shared experience. And I go back to I talk when I talk about read alouds, I I say, I mean, we can pull alumni in right now and I would say a kid that I taught in twenty seventeen, s name a couple of read alouds that we read and I can guarantee you they will they can name at least two that I read to them o eleven years ago. speaker-1: Let's throw out just for that teacher who may be saying, I've never done this, okay, I'm gonna do it. give me a good read aloud. I know you're doing Frindle right now, which Frindle is epic. Fantastic. So if you haven't read Friendle, I would I would definitely say Frindle is a good read aloud. What's another good read aloud? And speaker-0: Yeah, that's a really good one. speaker-1: it's not real lengthy either. So speaker-0: and that's the great thing. It's like the f it's one I typically do with fourth grade. just 'cause it's a fun story, it's engaging, there's some mischief, there's there's a a teacher student battle, it's all about words, which I love. Right. It's about eighty pages, so it can be done really fast and it just again creates a very positive shared experience in a very quick way and to say like reading is important in this classroom and look, d you come on, come on, you enjoyed it, you enjoyed it. so that's a good one. But again it it's it's really tough to say. I'm I'm a huge fan of the bad beginning, the series Unfortunate events, you know let me say it came out a couple of years ago on on on Netflix. That's one that I've I've had a lot of speaker-1: Because if you get them hooked on that first one, then they're gonna want to read the rest of the series. speaker-0: series books are there's so much utility behind introducing kids to series books, but we we don't have to talk about that now. But that's another one and again, it's just you gotta kinda know your class. It may not necessarily be like your cup of tea, but think about okay, what is something they're gonna like because I had a class who didn't love Frindo before, but I had to know them. Right. And then I found a text that really changed their their their whole s just mind and how they thought about things because Friendo was a little too baby for them. This was a very mature class, so I had to find a little bit more of a mature text. speaker-1: Restart. speaker-0: That's been a fan favorite as well. They've really loved that. speaker-1: So maybe those are a couple of titles and and you can maybe even see if there's any students who are a little bit older who you who have taught that will tell you about books that were their favorites and you could read them to your current students. And then I guess finally then my question would be for you, what is the if if you could only say th the the main thing you want everybody to remember about all the things we've talked about today, 'cause there's lot, what is it you want your final words to be that you hope that everybody will remember? speaker-0: I would say that we we really do have to have a a a a an understanding of what the science of reading is and how that affects our instruction, how it affects how we run a classroom, and that the teaching a student how to read and having a desire for a student to love reading, they don't have to be separated. They're not two separate entities. They in fact I think they don't have to be it they they have to be inextricably linked in order for what we want to happen. Because if a kid can, and if they really do like it, how much more are they gonna do it? And the more they do it, the better they're gonna become at it and d no matter what the texts are, right? Because your mechanic is gonna read mechanic text. He's not gonna read Sarah Plane and Tall or the Odyssey, right? But It's gonna put kids in a position not only to be able to have access, but to want to actually do this this thing called reading. So yeah. speaker-1: I love it. And if you're a parent, read aloud to your kids. I love that. Easy piece. I love that piece so very much. So, educators, thank you so much for joining us. Parents, thank you so much for joining us. Hopefully you can see that we're very, very blessed to have Corey here. But also we want to thank you because I know that when we're hearing all these things in the news about reading, I think that it can feel very discouraging to us, especially when we're trying to do all the right things. And it's even worse if people act like we're to blame because as we've shared here, there's so many pieces of this puzzle and we're all doing the very best we can. But hopefully some of these tips, some of these strategies, some of these methods, and even just some of these ways of thinking a little bit differently will be things that you can use, take back to your classroom. So thank you for all the work you do, and we hope that you will come visit us here sometime at the Ron Clark Academy. To learn more about that, go to RCAEXP.com and thank you for joining us on the RCA mix. Thank you, Corey. Thank you for joining us. We hope you've enjoyed this episode and can take away something that you may be able to use in your classroom and school. And above all, the goal is to impact as many students as possible. So please take the time to share this with your fellow teachers, colleagues, and friends as well. And please remember to subscribe to never miss another one of our amazing guests. While we hope you continue to watch and listen to the RCA Mix podcast, we would really love for you to come visit us in person here at the Ron Kark Academy to attend one of our professional development conferences. They happen almost every single week. And you can learn more about them and how to register at rcaexp.com. We hope to see you here.