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How to Deal with a Toxic Boss (Micromanager, Narcissist & Bully Guide) · Loud & Lifted

• 0:00
  Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy
• 0:02
  Hamm. Today's episode is for anyone who's ever
• 0:04
  opened their laptop and thought, great, what
• 0:06
  flavor of chaos are we dealing with today? Because
• 0:09
  we're talking about the three boss types that
• 0:11
  can quietly wreck your confidence and, honestly,
• 0:14
  your career. The micromanager, the narcissist,
• 0:18
  and the bully boss. I'm joined by Linda Harvey.
• 0:21
  You might know her as the management guru from
• 0:23
  TikTok. And her mission is simple. She wants
• 0:26
  to help you lead, speak fluent corporate, and
• 0:29
  protect your piece at work without losing your
• 0:31
  edge. We dig into why this is so common, a hint
• 0:35
  most new managers never actually get formal training,
• 0:38
  and what you can actually do when your boss is
• 0:41
  making work feel impossible. From practical train
• 0:45
  your boss moves to documentation strategies to
• 0:48
  knowing when the healthiest option is just a
• 0:51
  clean exit. Let's get into it. Welcome to Loud
• 1:03
  and Lifted. Linda Harvey, thank you so much for
• 1:06
  being here. Thanks for having me. I'm really
• 1:08
  excited about this conversation. Yeah, this is
• 1:11
  going to be fun because we're going to talk about
• 1:12
  some serious stuff and I have to read just your
• 1:15
  bio from TikTok that says, teaching you how to
• 1:18
  lead, speak fluent corporate and protect your
• 1:20
  piece at work all without losing your edge. That's
• 1:24
  such a great bio and such a great intro. And
• 1:26
  I have to mention that's from TikTok because
• 1:28
  that's actually how I found you. A friend of
• 1:31
  mine is having a tough boss situation and she
• 1:34
  was telling me about it. And, you know, 10 minutes
• 1:36
  later after our conversation, she hangs up and
• 1:37
  goes, this, this is the next thing I see on TikTok.
• 1:41
  She's speaking to me. And of course it was your
• 1:43
  video. Um, so then I went down a rabbit hole
• 1:45
  listening and watching a lot of your videos on
• 1:48
  leadership and management. And I was like, oh
• 1:49
  my gosh, this woman is amazing. You have this
• 1:52
  great, very straightforward, no bullshit, but
• 1:55
  like, I feel like. You're speaking to me in every
• 1:57
  video approach. So before we get into the content
• 2:00
  today, tell me, how did you become this huge
• 2:02
  voice on social media about management and leadership?
• 2:06
  Yeah. So here's the thing. If you would have
• 2:09
  asked me if this is where I was going to be even
• 2:11
  18 months ago, I'd have been like, I think maybe
• 2:13
  you have taken something because I am of a generation
• 2:19
  of you work until you retire. Right. And that's
• 2:22
  what I thought I was going to do. I thought I
• 2:24
  was just going to go into the corporate world
• 2:26
  and work and then eventually like get old and
• 2:29
  not work anymore. And I was in this space. in
• 2:35
  my career where I felt so confident. I felt so
• 2:38
  competent. I knew what I was doing. I like understood
• 2:42
  the work. I understood the assignment. I was
• 2:45
  crushing it. I mean, I was saving my company
• 2:47
  money. I was keeping attrition though. Like I
• 2:49
  was doing all of these things that really aligned
• 2:51
  with all of my skills and I was so excited and
• 2:55
  I hated my job. I hated my job and which was
• 2:59
  such a foreign concept to me because usually
• 3:03
  you don't like your job when it doesn't align
• 3:04
  with what you know or you feel out of your depth
• 3:08
  or it's below you or it's your board. I was challenged.
• 3:12
  I had all of these things and every day I was
• 3:14
  physically ill before I would go to work and
• 3:17
  I worked from home. So that was fun. And I started
• 3:22
  really kind of doing some assessments and realized
• 3:25
  that I was in an environment that felt very toxic
• 3:28
  to me. I had a leader that I felt was very underskilled
• 3:34
  for my performance level, right? Like where I
• 3:37
  was at and someone who just really wanted someone,
• 3:41
  my leader at the time, wanted somebody to come
• 3:44
  in and do everything their way. They wanted me
• 3:48
  to come in and I mean, I remember like I'm a
• 3:50
  head of a department, right? Like I'm a head
• 3:52
  of a department. I've been doing this for 10
• 3:54
  years. Uh, I had saved the company over $600
• 3:57
  ,000 in my first six months. Like I had taken
• 4:00
  attrition from like 10 % to 1%. I mean, like
• 4:04
  no, I'm not, I'm not talking like I was just
• 4:08
  like magnetic in a room. I was good at what I
• 4:10
  was doing and I had this boss who was like, well,
• 4:17
  your staff meetings are too long. You need to
• 4:20
  have two 30 -minute staff meetings. And if you're
• 4:25
  not presenting a slide deck in your staff meetings,
• 4:28
  your staff meetings are not effective. And I'm
• 4:32
  like, you don't even come to my staff meetings.
• 4:35
  Why do I need to make this change? Well, that's
• 4:38
  how I do it. Oh, that's what I think is, that's
• 4:40
  what I think is the most effective, right? And
• 4:44
  here's the thing. I came up in customer service
• 4:46
  organizations. I was building and scaling customer
• 4:48
  service organizations. That's full of humans
• 4:50
  who just want to be emotionally supported. They
• 4:53
  don't love the quick hits, right? My leader came
• 4:56
  up through sales organizations and could not
• 4:59
  see the difference between like what you are
• 5:02
  used to doing and what I am good at doing. uh
• 5:06
  and it was everything everything was well you
• 5:10
  didn't do it this way and this is how i would
• 5:11
  have done it and it's like you're paying me for
• 5:14
  a reason you like and i i did at one point in
• 5:18
  time i said with this person i'm like you don't
• 5:20
  you don't need me in this role you just need
• 5:22
  somebody who's going to take whatever order you
• 5:24
  give and execute whatever order that you give
• 5:26
  that's not me oh no i do need somebody in this
• 5:29
  role i do need a dynamic thinker i just need
• 5:31
  them to think the way that i think And I thought,
• 5:34
  again, you don't need me. And I'm a very type
• 5:38
  A personality. I've got to have a plan. I've
• 5:42
  got to know what's going on. I'm very structured.
• 5:45
  And I quit. I quit without a backup plan. I had
• 5:50
  just moved back into the country because my job
• 5:53
  told me I had to be back in the country. I moved
• 5:55
  back into the country for my job. I was living
• 5:57
  in an Airbnb. I had not signed a permanent lease.
• 6:02
  to where I was going next. And I quit my job.
• 6:06
  My husband was in the process of finding work.
• 6:10
  I have two teenagers and I quit my job. That
• 6:13
  is how desperate I felt to get out of this environment.
• 6:18
  And I remember at the time thinking, if I could
• 6:20
  just recommit, if I could just focus differently,
• 6:23
  if I could just show up this way, if I could
• 6:25
  just do these things. And it just wasn't right.
• 6:28
  It just was not the right fit for me. And so
• 6:31
  I started my own company and I went out to try
• 6:33
  and train managers because I felt like my experience
• 6:37
  came from a manager who just was not trained.
• 6:39
  I came from a manager that just didn't have the
• 6:43
  skills to deal with different types of personalities
• 6:46
  or different kinds of performers. And I started
• 6:49
  my company and I was not getting enough traction.
• 6:52
  And so in May of this year, I went to TikTok.
• 6:57
  It was after the ban. Like it came back like
• 6:59
  this has been a whirlwind for me. And I just
• 7:02
  start putting, putting out content, hoping that
• 7:05
  people would feel seen and not feel so alone
• 7:08
  and not feel like they were taking crazy pills
• 7:11
  when they couldn't understand why they were so
• 7:13
  miserable at work. Hmm. Well, you are totally
• 7:16
  killing it. And I think you have like what over
• 7:18
  a half a million people following you between
• 7:20
  TikTok and Instagram. So it's almost 700 ,000.
• 7:23
  So it's a, yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's been doing,
• 7:26
  it's been doing really, really well. That's amazing.
• 7:29
  Well, and like you said, and I mentioned it's,
• 7:31
  it's your approach and you talk about things
• 7:33
  that people don't always want to talk about.
• 7:35
  And, you know, I think part of the issue in our
• 7:37
  world is, is we get so focused on results that
• 7:40
  we don't focus on the people piece of it. And
• 7:42
  people may be really good at a job, but that
• 7:44
  doesn't mean they're good at managing people.
• 7:45
  And that's very different as a different skill
• 7:47
  set. And I think we, as a lot of organizations,
• 7:50
  don't do a good job of making sure managers are
• 7:52
  supported or trained or coached along the way,
• 7:55
  because that manager should have been kicked
• 7:57
  the first time they said, well, you're not doing
• 7:58
  it the way I would do it. It's like, oh my gosh,
• 8:01
  that's a major, major red flag. So that's awesome.
• 8:05
  So I love that you're doing this. So let's dig
• 8:07
  into some of these bad bosses of, you know, what
• 8:10
  does it look like and how do you, how do you
• 8:13
  not support that? How do you deal with that when
• 8:15
  you're on the receiving end? And I mean, perfect
• 8:17
  setup, the micromanager, which is clearly the
• 8:19
  one that pushed you over the edge and caused
• 8:21
  you to rage quit. So first and foremost, I think
• 8:24
  it's really important. And you touched on it,
• 8:26
  like so many individual contributors. So our
• 8:29
  ICs in the organization, are great at their jobs.
• 8:33
  They promote it into management. And there's
• 8:36
  a staggering statistic of 85 % of new managers
• 8:39
  never receive any formal training, which is just
• 8:44
  jarring. And so many organizations no longer
• 8:47
  even offer it. They don't even have in -house
• 8:50
  learning and development, let alone hiring external
• 8:53
  companies. And the first thing that's cut in
• 8:55
  the budget, before they even cut travel, they're
• 8:58
  cutting training. training budgets. So you have
• 9:01
  all of these people who go into these roles,
• 9:04
  they get into these roles and they start to,
• 9:08
  they just mimic what they've seen, right? They're
• 9:10
  just like, my, my old boss did it this way, whether
• 9:12
  it's good or bad, right? Because again, most
• 9:15
  of these people who were individual contributors
• 9:17
  were never really managed. They were high performers.
• 9:22
  They were good at their job. They showed up and
• 9:24
  did the work. They showed up and did all of these
• 9:26
  things. Because they were invested in whatever
• 9:29
  it is that they were doing, or they have this
• 9:32
  in its sense of performance, right? And so they
• 9:38
  go into these roles. And that is where so many
• 9:41
  of these bad managers are born. But then they
• 9:44
  just do all of these things and they manage the
• 9:45
  way that they saw or the way that they think
• 9:47
  they're supposed to do it. Or, you know, oh,
• 9:49
  well, if I bring down the hammer, then this is
• 9:52
  This is what a manager does because I'm a boss,
• 9:55
  right? Because again, they've never experienced
• 9:57
  this. So this is where so many micro managers
• 10:00
  are born because they were a high performer and
• 10:05
  they saw results and then they were promoted
• 10:08
  into this role. So obviously they were doing
• 10:11
  something right. And that is where you get that
• 10:15
  sense of, well, if you just do it my way. Right
• 10:18
  because they believe they'll they'll see somebody
• 10:21
  who performs differently than them, right? They'll
• 10:24
  see somebody who maybe is like a middle -of -the
• 10:26
  -road performer which Spoiler alert most of the
• 10:30
  best managers are middle -of -the -road performers,
• 10:32
  right? Oh, they're people who like are invested
• 10:34
  in the work, but it's not so much about this
• 10:36
  work It's about leading and growing teams and
• 10:39
  and so they're not always like the best performer
• 10:43
  But these high performers who are now managers
• 10:46
  are like, well, I wouldn't do it this way. And
• 10:48
  you have to do it this way because they have
• 10:50
  never had to experience a pivot. They've always
• 10:53
  been on that trajectory of like, I'm just really
• 10:57
  good at what I do and I don't have a lot of setbacks
• 11:00
  and I just kind of go forward. Right. And so
• 11:03
  that's how they feel like they have to manage
• 11:05
  their team. And then when they have these people
• 11:07
  who perform differently than they do. They are
• 11:12
  so concerned with failure, which again is not
• 11:15
  a familiar feeling for them. They're just like,
• 11:18
  Nope, you've got to do it this way. You've got
• 11:20
  to come in and you've got to do it this way.
• 11:21
  And this is the only way that you can do it.
• 11:24
  And that's seated in like a really deep, dark
• 11:28
  place of mistrust. It's really because they don't
• 11:30
  trust their individuals to do things different
• 11:35
  because they don't understand those things. Right.
• 11:38
  So that's how a lot of micromanagers are born
• 11:42
  and You know, they'll say the words that I love
• 11:46
  to hear them use it. Well, I'm a perfectionist,
• 11:48
  right? Right. I'm like welcome to business. There's
• 11:51
  no such thing as perfect, right? Or well, you
• 11:55
  know, I know and and my my manager when we were
• 11:58
  having it out I'm a control freak and I'm never
• 12:02
  going to not be a control freak right almost
• 12:06
  wearing it as a badge of honor Right. Like, well,
• 12:09
  I don't really care what you think because I
• 12:11
  am a control freaking. I love that about me.
• 12:13
  I'm like, okay, then you don't need me. Right.
• 12:16
  But that's where so much of it is where people
• 12:20
  are saying it, but really it comes from a place
• 12:22
  of trust. So micromanagers don't trust you to
• 12:25
  show up. Micromanagers don't trust your process.
• 12:29
  Micromanagers live in this, this environment
• 12:32
  of mistrust. Right. And I there are actually
• 12:37
  two kinds of micromanagers. There is the most
• 12:41
  popular micromanager is the micromanager who
• 12:44
  micromanages again, because they just things
• 12:46
  differently than they do. Right. And so they
• 12:48
  have to guide every single step of the process.
• 12:50
  And then the second type of micromanagement is
• 12:52
  I believe is an actual necessary evil. And these
• 12:56
  are the types of managers who you have shown
• 12:59
  them that you can't do the work. So you're constantly
• 13:04
  underperforming. You're late. You're saying things
• 13:07
  you shouldn't be saying. Like you are doing all
• 13:09
  of these things and you've shown that you are
• 13:11
  not ready for this role or you're not capable
• 13:13
  of doing this role completely. And that's when
• 13:16
  people have to step in and micromanage. And it
• 13:18
  is a tool to help up level people. So sometimes
• 13:22
  it very much is a necessary evil. But I want
• 13:25
  to talk about the bigger one, the big one where
• 13:29
  there are people who just don't trust you to
• 13:32
  do the things. And it's really important I work
• 13:36
  with a lot of clients one -on -one and I get
• 13:40
  a lot of clients who are like, oh, my manager
• 13:42
  just micromanages me to death. And I'm like,
• 13:44
  okay, tell me what they do. Tell me what they're
• 13:47
  doing. And the key to combating a micromanager
• 13:51
  is through observation. And this is what people
• 13:55
  do not pay enough attention to because they,
• 13:59
  we're all the star of our own soap opera, right?
• 14:01
  And so everything's happening to me. But if you
• 14:03
  take a minute and step back and, watch what is
• 14:06
  it that they need. So if they call you every
• 14:09
  single day at four o 'clock to get an update
• 14:12
  on where you are, you call them at three 45.
• 14:15
  You make the phone call before they have the
• 14:18
  time to call you because what they are communicating
• 14:21
  is they don't believe that you are updating them
• 14:24
  enough. They don't believe that you are going
• 14:27
  to give them all of the relevant information.
• 14:29
  And so they have to call you at four before they
• 14:32
  can close their laptop for the day and go home.
• 14:36
  Micromanagers manifest this all of the time.
• 14:38
  They tell you through their micromanagement exactly
• 14:43
  what they need from you. And if you can get proactive
• 14:46
  and learn how to get in front of that and give
• 14:50
  it what they need or show them that you're doing
• 14:53
  the thing they want you to do, that is one way
• 14:57
  to get a micromanager off your back. Interesting.
• 15:01
  Makes sense. I love that, and because you're
• 15:04
  right, it's observing them and realizing, okay,
• 15:07
  just start CCing them on stuff, even though it
• 15:10
  would pain you to have to copy them on that stuff.
• 15:12
  But if you can start to build that trust, hopefully
• 15:14
  most of them will change. I mean, I'm sure there's
• 15:16
  some that aren't. And then if you do have those
• 15:18
  ones, hopefully you can train. It's kind of like
• 15:20
  training your boss, right? You really are training
• 15:22
  your boss. They are telling you how they like
• 15:25
  to be communicated with. They're telling you
• 15:27
  what they need. and you're showing up and you're
• 15:30
  giving them that and they're backing off. Yeah.
• 15:34
  No, that makes sense. What happens if they don't?
• 15:37
  So then you might have a situation like I did
• 15:40
  where it was, Hey, I'm not going to back off
• 15:42
  because I am going to control every single move
• 15:45
  and I want you to be a robot and I want you to
• 15:48
  do these things. And then you have to decide
• 15:49
  if that's in your ability or not. Is this something
• 15:54
  that you can do? Can you show up? Can you surrender
• 15:57
  like your free will? And that's what I felt in
• 15:59
  my situation. I was like, I have to give you
• 16:02
  all of my free will just to keep my job. Then
• 16:05
  you decide, is this a worthwhile endeavor for
• 16:09
  me? Is this the place that I want to be? Because,
• 16:12
  you know, you can train your boss and you can
• 16:14
  teach them how to show up for you in a different
• 16:17
  way. And again, they weren't trained initially.
• 16:19
  So this is you're, you're really customizing
• 16:22
  the training here. Right. But, but if they are
• 16:25
  unwilling to show up and they're unwilling to
• 16:26
  do those things, then you have to decide like,
• 16:28
  how invested am I in this position? Right. Is
• 16:31
  this the right place for me? Can I be personally
• 16:33
  fulfilled? And I think that's also where you
• 16:35
  tap into like, what are your personal needs?
• 16:37
  Like we can talk Maslow's all day long, right?
• 16:39
  But what are my needs? And you know, for me,
• 16:43
  my need is I need to feel trusted. I need to
• 16:45
  feel empowered. I need to feel autonomy, like
• 16:47
  all of these important things. And if I just
• 16:50
  am going through the motions, my mind is bored
• 16:53
  and I can't do these things. And then you evaluate,
• 16:55
  where do you go from there? Yeah. Well, that
• 16:58
  makes total sense. And it's funny because I can
• 17:00
  think of just two different friends in that situation,
• 17:03
  one who probably will end up rage quitting or
• 17:06
  leaving and the other one who's kind of like,
• 17:07
  you know what? I work out the pros and cons.
• 17:09
  I get to work from home. I do X, Y, and Z. It's
• 17:11
  fine. Like, you know, so it's just kind of balancing,
• 17:13
  you know, can you handle the situation? What
• 17:15
  can be changed? Can you train them and then making
• 17:18
  that decision? So yes, I think that's great.
• 17:20
  Great advice. All right. Let's let's talk about
• 17:22
  another one that I feel like we don't talk about
• 17:24
  a lot. And that's a narcissistic boss. And you
• 17:27
  had some great commentary, especially around
• 17:29
  women, which is so true because you say a narcissist.
• 17:33
  I don't know why I'm stereotypical. I think of
• 17:34
  a man, but How about when you have a narcissistic
• 17:38
  woman boss? How does that look and how do we
• 17:40
  handle that? So interestingly enough, their similarity,
• 17:43
  they're the same. They're the exact same type
• 17:45
  of person. But I think, again, to your point,
• 17:48
  we think only men in this, which I don't really
• 17:51
  understand why because I don't know either. You
• 17:53
  know, when you really start to unpack it, you
• 17:54
  hear about like narcissistic mothers and narcissistic
• 17:57
  grandmothers and kind of the control. And I am
• 18:00
  sure that there's lots and lots of studies that
• 18:02
  show us like how why it's so deeply seated in
• 18:06
  in women and in our in our female culture. But
• 18:11
  you know first and foremost Narcissist a narcissist
• 18:15
  is a very clinical term and we need to like just
• 18:18
  because they are mean Doesn't mean they're a
• 18:20
  narcissist just because they like ignore you.
• 18:22
  It doesn't mean they're a narcissist You know,
• 18:24
  I get a lot of people are like they're so mean
• 18:26
  and they say mean things to me. I'm like So I
• 18:30
  can't diagnose that they're a narcissist, but
• 18:32
  there are very similar patterns that are demonstrated
• 18:36
  when you're dealing with somebody who has narcissistic
• 18:38
  tendencies or is an actual narcissist. And these
• 18:42
  are people that never will take the blame. They'll
• 18:45
  never be accountable for anything. Right. So
• 18:48
  you could come and say, like, you punched me
• 18:51
  in the face and they'd be like, well, you made
• 18:52
  me. Like I felt backed into a corner. It was
• 18:56
  the only way that I could react to this situation,
• 18:59
  right? Like it's not because I misbehaved. It's
• 19:01
  actually because you did a thing and now I'm
• 19:03
  doing this thing, right? They have a tendency
• 19:06
  to gaslight you again, because they cannot be
• 19:09
  accountable. They cannot be the villain. They
• 19:12
  have to be the person. who is liked. They have
• 19:15
  to be the person who everybody thinks is capable
• 19:18
  and doing these things no matter what, right?
• 19:22
  And so they will gaslight you. They will, they're
• 19:25
  always in control of the narrative. They will
• 19:28
  praise you until you start to outshine them.
• 19:33
  And when you start to outshine them, they start
• 19:35
  to feel very threatened and then they will isolate
• 19:38
  you and they will shut you down and they will
• 19:42
  limit your visibility. And those things look
• 19:44
  like in the office, like you may have been invited
• 19:47
  to, you know, some some high profile meetings,
• 19:50
  right? And you've come to the meetings, you've
• 19:52
  been prepared, you've been able to speak to them,
• 19:54
  been able to do all of these things and you've
• 19:57
  gotten. accolades for that, or maybe your manager
• 20:00
  has been given praise, like, oh, that Linda,
• 20:02
  she sure is sharp, or she's sure really capable,
• 20:04
  right? This is really incredible. And what someone
• 20:08
  with narcissistic tendencies will do will...
• 20:11
  Oh, you know what? You're not really needed.
• 20:13
  Go ahead and prepare the deck for me. I don't
• 20:16
  actually need you in this meeting. Like it's
• 20:18
  going to be really, really high. It's going to
• 20:19
  be so high level. You don't really need to be
• 20:21
  in there. We're going to discuss things that
• 20:23
  you really don't need eyes on. I'll go ahead
• 20:26
  and take this information, but they will start
• 20:28
  to take credit for the work. Right. And then
• 20:32
  they start to change the narrative about you.
• 20:35
  Oh, well, you know, Linda really wasn't that
• 20:37
  great. I really had to help her a lot. She really
• 20:40
  like. I really had to step in and, you know,
• 20:43
  it got to the point where it was so overwhelming
• 20:46
  to go in and have to re -correct her work that
• 20:48
  I just took it on, right? You're still doing
• 20:51
  the work, but they're taking the credit for it
• 20:54
  because you were outshining or you were the new
• 20:57
  shiny toy. And that just cannot happen. And women,
• 21:02
  it's so funny. I was telling one of my clients
• 21:04
  the other day, like women play the long game.
• 21:06
  Right? Like we, we play, we remember like I,
• 21:08
  I remember in junior high, like I remember the
• 21:11
  person who spread the rumor about me in junior
• 21:12
  high. And if I run into her, I'm going to be
• 21:15
  nice to her face, but I'm still going to remember.
• 21:17
  Right? Like we play, we play the long game. And
• 21:19
  I think when it comes to women in the workplace
• 21:23
  that demonstrate female narcissistic, like these
• 21:26
  characteristics, they just have this super long
• 21:29
  memory and they are more conniving than men.
• 21:32
  Right? Like men, men will insult you and probably
• 21:36
  hit you in the face and then they'll move on.
• 21:38
  It's not a long game for them. Even male narcissists,
• 21:41
  it's not so much a long game. It is still very
• 21:43
  much in the moment where women have got that
• 21:46
  long game. And that's really how it's showing
• 21:48
  up at work for people. But then it's like, okay,
• 21:52
  well, how do I combat this? How do I have these
• 21:55
  conversations? What do I do? And the thing too,
• 22:00
  and I can't stress this piece enough, because
• 22:03
  I get people who are like, well, how do I get
• 22:05
  my narcissistic boss in trouble? You don't. You
• 22:10
  do not get them in trouble the reason they are
• 22:13
  in the position that they are in is They have
• 22:16
  learned how to navigate the politics. That's
• 22:19
  all it is, right? They've learned to navigate
• 22:21
  the politics They tell a compelling story to
• 22:25
  the people who are signing the checks. You cannot
• 22:28
  get them in trouble so it's not about trying
• 22:32
  to get them in trouble or Highlight who they
• 22:35
  are. It's about navigating them and protecting
• 22:38
  yourself and figuring out how to get out from
• 22:41
  underneath, because that is not a sustainable
• 22:44
  environment, right? And truthfully, like, I'm
• 22:49
  sure many therapists would say it's just like
• 22:51
  any abusive relationship. True. Like, you're
• 22:54
  not meant to be in those long, I mean, you're
• 22:56
  not meant to be in them at all, but you are not
• 22:59
  meant to be in them long term. Think of this
• 23:01
  as an abusive relationship and you need to learn
• 23:04
  how how do you survive? So you can protect yourself
• 23:07
  protect your peace and make an exit plan and
• 23:10
  you do things like not reacting not engaging
• 23:13
  There's a theory called the gray rock theory
• 23:17
  where it's just you just don't give anything
• 23:19
  So they come and try and bait you with oh you
• 23:22
  look really tired today. I do that's weird Yeah,
• 23:27
  like you look really tired. Why are you so tired?
• 23:30
  You know, I didn't really, why would you, why
• 23:33
  would you say I look tired? Well, your hair is
• 23:34
  a mess. Oh, that's weird. I haven't even looked
• 23:36
  in the mirror today. Right? Like you are not
• 23:39
  giving. Oh, unbothered. Anything. Because what
• 23:42
  they're trying to do and they feed on the chaos
• 23:44
  and they feed on the drama and they're just trying
• 23:46
  to hook you. They're just trying to hook you
• 23:48
  into this conversation. So how can you not do
• 23:51
  that? Uh, or it's like, I talk a lot about like,
• 23:55
  it's a calm approach, right? Like you look them
• 23:57
  in the eye. Good morning. Hello. and you move
• 23:59
  on, right? It gives them a sense of stability.
• 24:02
  So you create the sense of stability, but you
• 24:03
  don't react. If they're blowing up in a meeting,
• 24:06
  it's, okay, I hear what you're saying. This is
• 24:09
  the next plan. It's all about keeping your cool
• 24:13
  and staying very on it. Like detachment is the
• 24:17
  key in this. And just, it's not, not working.
• 24:21
  Like you're still going to work. You're just
• 24:23
  not emotionally investing and you're not allowing
• 24:26
  them to emotionally invest. take from you. And
• 24:30
  then it's about documentation, right? If you
• 24:33
  are in some, a situation where you're feeling
• 24:35
  gaslit every conversation, you should send follow
• 24:39
  -up notes. Hey, this is what I took from the
• 24:41
  conversation. Let me know if I missed anything.
• 24:44
  Right. And it's not about getting their validation.
• 24:47
  It's about, Hey, this, this is what I took from
• 24:49
  the conversation. This is what I have. Let me
• 24:51
  know if I let me know. Right. And when they come
• 24:54
  and change the story on you, you then have a
• 24:56
  piece of documentation where you go, Nope. Here's
• 24:59
  actually, you know, this, this was the direction
• 25:01
  we were given. Can you show me when this changed?
• 25:04
  Can you help me understand? Right. And again,
• 25:07
  it's not doing anything to them, but it's protecting
• 25:10
  yourself. So you're not going, is it me? Am I
• 25:14
  the problem? Am I the, did that really, because
• 25:20
  you really start to second -guess yourself. Absolutely.
• 25:23
  No, that makes sense. And I love the documentation
• 25:25
  because I think we think about that from the
• 25:27
  manager perspective. Like, oh, if I have an employee
• 25:29
  who's struggling, I'm going to document, hey,
• 25:30
  this is what we talked about just to make sure.
• 25:33
  communications clear, but I love that from the
• 25:35
  employee standpoint where it's, you know, it's
• 25:37
  not to be snarky, it's not to whatever, but it's
• 25:39
  like, let's just make sure we're on the same
• 25:41
  page. And oh, by the way, two weeks ago, we said
• 25:43
  this, and now you're changing direction. So I
• 25:46
  love the documenting part of that. I'm sure some
• 25:48
  people would be offended or start to kind of
• 25:51
  like see that, but maybe that would slightly
• 25:53
  change something, probably not with a narcissist.
• 25:55
  But I love that protecting yourself because I,
• 25:59
  I, I luckily have never had a boss like that,
• 26:02
  but I've seen other bosses like that in a bigger
• 26:04
  organization. And, you know, they're really good
• 26:07
  at manipulation, right? So to your point, they're
• 26:09
  not going to change, number one. And number two,
• 26:11
  they're probably not going to get called out
• 26:13
  for it. And they're sometimes at the highest
• 26:14
  levels of organization. So protecting yourself
• 26:18
  and not engaging, I think, is just amazing advice
• 26:20
  and just trying to be chill and calm, which you're
• 26:24
  probably raging inside. But, you know, just having
• 26:26
  that really nice, calm approach that they're
• 26:29
  not giving that rowl out of you that they're
• 26:31
  looking for. It's like the little kid who's sitting
• 26:33
  there keeps, you know, picking at somebody wanting
• 26:35
  a reaction. Well, don't react. Yep. Oh, easier
• 26:39
  said than done, but I think it's great. It takes
• 26:41
  a lot of practice and it's a lot of like mirror
• 26:43
  work where you're like, okay, how am I going
• 26:46
  to say this? But when, when you find yourself
• 26:48
  in those situations, the advice I give to people
• 26:50
  is I say write down three responses. So and the
• 26:54
  reason you write it down is because it commits
• 26:56
  to memory. But write down three things that you
• 26:58
  could say that sound like you because you're
• 27:01
  never going to sound like me and I'm not going
• 27:03
  to sound like you. So my delivery is going to
• 27:05
  be totally different than yours. But this is
• 27:08
  how you prepare for this. You write down three
• 27:11
  options. So you always have something to pick
• 27:14
  from, but it's already. of who you are and it's
• 27:19
  part of the conversation and it sounds like you
• 27:21
  and if you practice those things then you're
• 27:24
  because so often people are shocked right there
• 27:27
  they're like I can't believe somebody just yelled
• 27:29
  at me I'm at work and I can't believe this just
• 27:32
  happened and they go into like stunned mode but
• 27:36
  if you've already prepared for this and you already
• 27:38
  have your response handy it flows right And the
• 27:42
  first time it's scary. The second time it's less
• 27:45
  scary. And then after that, it just becomes very
• 27:47
  natural to who you are. You start doing it at
• 27:50
  home with your kids and you're like, why would
• 27:51
  you say that? Right. And practicing. I think
• 27:55
  any difficult conversation, sometimes you feel
• 27:57
  a little crazy. I used to do it in my car, like
• 27:58
  driving to work. I knew it was going to be a
• 28:00
  difficult conversation. So I would literally
• 28:02
  say it out loud. And then at least I'm not a
• 28:05
  good memorizer, but I couldn't memorize it. But
• 28:07
  at least having the conversation to myself in
• 28:09
  the car made me more prepared for those difficult
• 28:12
  conversations. 100%. I don't miss those car rides.
• 28:16
  All right. The last difficult boss we're going
• 28:19
  to talk about is the bully boss. Yep. Yep. So
• 28:22
  bullying and narcissists kind of like sit in
• 28:26
  a similar frame only like a bully can a bully.
• 28:29
  You can like maybe correct, right? So, and again,
• 28:33
  I, first and foremost, I think, you know, I grew
• 28:36
  up in the eighties and nineties. And when my
• 28:40
  kids started going to school, I was like, this
• 28:41
  is bullying behavior. We put up with a lot. We
• 28:45
  put up with a lot in the 80s and 90s, and I can't
• 28:48
  even think about beforehand. So first and foremost,
• 28:51
  I think the word bully gets kicked around a lot,
• 28:55
  right? And that's why bullying behavior is not
• 28:59
  considered illegal. So when we think about workplace
• 29:02
  behaviors that are tolerated and not tolerated,
• 29:06
  Things like sexual harassment things like hostile
• 29:09
  work environment things like actual harassment
• 29:12
  discrimination those are all legal terms that
• 29:15
  have a legal definition and bullying because
• 29:19
  it looks it's so many different ways and can
• 29:23
  demonstrate so many different ways and One person
• 29:27
  could conceive it Differently than somebody else
• 29:30
  could right? So that's why bullying is not illegal
• 29:33
  and it's very difficult to kind of write policies
• 29:36
  and things about that. Now, most larger companies,
• 29:40
  if they have any kind of like HRT, like any HR
• 29:43
  systems, uh, there's, there's usually like, Hey,
• 29:45
  you have to learn about sexual harassment. You
• 29:47
  have to learn about bullying and discrimination.
• 29:50
  So we're seeing a lot more traction about bullying
• 29:53
  behavior in the workplace. But again, it's sometimes
• 29:57
  kicked around a little loosey goosey. So the
• 30:00
  first thing to do to determine if you're being
• 30:03
  bullied, is start writing everything down, right?
• 30:08
  And again, this is where people are like, I can't
• 30:11
  believe that my job, my full -time job is writing
• 30:13
  things down. And it's like, well, if you want
• 30:14
  to protect yourself and you want to get the support
• 30:17
  that you need and work someplace that this behavior
• 30:20
  is not allowed in, you have to start documenting
• 30:24
  it. And you have to think like a detective. You
• 30:26
  have to think like date, time, exactly what was
• 30:30
  said. And I like to take it a step further and
• 30:34
  write down like the ramification of that thing
• 30:38
  that was said or done. Right. And it's really
• 30:41
  crucial for you to write these things down because
• 30:43
  it helps you demonstrate a pattern of behavior.
• 30:47
  And sadly, whenever you are going to escalate
• 30:49
  this and you should be escalating bullying behavior,
• 30:53
  the burden of proof sits on your shoulders. And
• 30:55
  so you can't go to your HR team or you can't
• 30:58
  go to your director or you can't go to your C
• 31:01
  -suite person and be like, Linda bullies me.
• 31:03
  Because they'll go like, OK, well, what do they
• 31:05
  do? Well, it's just a feeling. I can't act on
• 31:09
  that. There's nothing that I can do. Right. And
• 31:11
  even if you don't escalate it internally and
• 31:15
  even if you feel like as you're going through
• 31:17
  it, it falls in those kind of protected behaviors.
• 31:20
  you still have to provide proof. So it's time
• 31:22
  for you to start writing things down. It also
• 31:24
  solidifies what is being done, right? You might
• 31:28
  find that this manager uses sarcasm. Let's, let's
• 31:33
  say that. And you feel like that's bullying behavior,
• 31:35
  right? But as you start to write it down, you're
• 31:37
  like, Oh, maybe I actually like this really,
• 31:41
  this really wasn't as the thing that it was,
• 31:43
  it doesn't discount your feeling in the moment,
• 31:45
  but that's when you go have a conversation with
• 31:48
  your manager and you say, Hey, listen, like the
• 31:50
  other day, when you said this thing, I really
• 31:52
  affected the way that I felt, or, you know, I
• 31:55
  don't process sarcasm. And so when you do this,
• 31:58
  like, I don't know if you're being silly or if
• 32:02
  you're trying to cause harm, right? We can stop
• 32:06
  bullying behavior more often than not by having
• 32:09
  a conversation about it and saying, Hey, When
• 32:12
  you do this thing, this is how it affects me.
• 32:16
  Can we come up with a different plan? Can we
• 32:18
  do this differently? Doesn't mean it's not a
• 32:21
  scary conversation. It's a terrifying conversation.
• 32:25
  But you can shut down because so many people
• 32:27
  lack self -awareness that they might go, oh,
• 32:32
  my word. I did not know that this is a thing,
• 32:37
  right? Or I joke with everybody this way. Well,
• 32:40
  it doesn't feel like a joke to me. It feels personal,
• 32:43
  right? It feels like you're attacking me in this
• 32:45
  situation. This is how I feel or this is the
• 32:48
  ramifications of this. So can we make some changes?
• 32:52
  So that's the first step in even identifying
• 32:56
  a bully is writing everything down, getting really
• 32:59
  specific. And then, you know, we have these amazing
• 33:02
  tools like chat GPT where you can literally take
• 33:06
  all of your documentation. and put it in and
• 33:10
  say, I feel like I'm being bullied. These are
• 33:12
  the things that are being done. Am I being bullied?
• 33:16
  Right? And GPD will give you an opinion. That's
• 33:19
  amazing. I never thought about that. It's amazing.
• 33:22
  It's amazing what you can find out. So you can
• 33:24
  go through, because sometimes we also look at
• 33:26
  it through our emotional lens. And so we apply
• 33:29
  it, right? Or we go tell the people in our lives
• 33:32
  these stories and they're like, oh yeah, you're
• 33:35
  totally being bullied. And then you're like,
• 33:37
  I am? Right. So it's a way to like be impartial
• 33:41
  with this information. And then, like I said,
• 33:43
  the very first step, if you can, right now, if
• 33:46
  they're physically intimidating you, that's a
• 33:48
  different story. Go to HR immediately. Right.
• 33:50
  Right. But if you go through and you're writing
• 33:52
  these things down and you're just like, yeah,
• 33:55
  I'm being bullied. If you can have the conversation,
• 33:58
  have the conversation with your manager. Again,
• 34:00
  they're all untrained humans that are just walking
• 34:03
  around, hoping for the best. have the conversation.
• 34:07
  If you feel like you can't have the conversation
• 34:08
  or you feel threatened or you feel that's then
• 34:10
  you take that documentation and you escalate
• 34:13
  it and the best place to escalate it. is within
• 34:16
  your HR team if you have an HR team. If you don't
• 34:19
  have an HR team and you're in the United States,
• 34:21
  there are outside organizations that you can
• 34:23
  escalate to, the EEOC being one of them. So these
• 34:27
  are places where you can create escalations,
• 34:29
  you can create records, and you can help protect
• 34:31
  yourself from this behavior. But again, you have
• 34:34
  to document, document, document. And then again,
• 34:38
  similar to a narcissistic manager, you've got
• 34:42
  to get out. Now you can escalate and sometimes
• 34:44
  your team will come in and jump in. Sometimes
• 34:47
  your team won't. Sometimes your HR team will
• 34:49
  be like, oh, you're being sensitive or this really
• 34:52
  isn't an issue or, okay, if people don't have
• 34:56
  your back, then it is time to go. No, that's,
• 35:00
  that's great. And, you know, all three of these
• 35:02
  types of bosses we talked about are similar,
• 35:04
  but different. And I think the big takeaway is
• 35:06
  you have to deal with all of them, right? Like
• 35:08
  you just can't sit back and be miserable and
• 35:10
  take it and become so small because you think
• 35:13
  you deserve it or there's no way out or whatever
• 35:16
  it is. So it's, it's all a little different,
• 35:18
  but whether it's documenting, having the conversation
• 35:20
  with them, because to your point, I do agree,
• 35:21
  self -awareness is a major issue for so many
• 35:24
  people. So, and especially in the bully situation,
• 35:26
  they may have no idea they're doing it. They
• 35:28
  think they're funny, especially sarcastic people,
• 35:30
  I think get a little. close to the line at the
• 35:33
  time. So I think the big takeaway with all this
• 35:35
  is, is you need to get help, you need to document,
• 35:38
  you need to, or the last straw is to not rage
• 35:42
  quit, hopefully. Or do if you feel like that's
• 35:46
  your only option. Or do it and become a TikTok
• 35:48
  star. I mean, it's such a great story. I love
• 35:51
  that so much. So in addition to all that, when,
• 35:54
  now that you've been doing this for a few months
• 35:56
  and you get such engagement, what has been the
• 35:58
  one topic or video that people have just been
• 36:01
  like, Oh my god, this is me and I just are so
• 36:03
  engaged with or you've gotten so much feedback
• 36:05
  from the last few months. You know, I've actually
• 36:08
  had a number of them. I've been very fortunate.
• 36:11
  I think the probably my very first viral post
• 36:15
  continues to get a lot of play. And it's about
• 36:19
  talking about managing high performers and how
• 36:23
  you know, you have to show up differently for
• 36:25
  them. You have to show up. You have to be accountable
• 36:28
  because when you're working with a high performer,
• 36:32
  a high performer holds themselves accountable.
• 36:34
  They are somebody who shows up, you know, we
• 36:37
  talked about it a little earlier. They are the
• 36:38
  person who shows up and gives a hundred percent
• 36:40
  because that's who they are. They want, they're
• 36:44
  bought into the process. They're bought into
• 36:45
  the mission and managing a high performer can
• 36:50
  be very challenging. If sometimes you you can
• 36:53
  give them just a little bit of direction and
• 36:56
  then you need to just get out of their way, right?
• 36:59
  And then it's alignment. It's like, oh, you know
• 37:02
  what? We might've gone a little far on this one.
• 37:04
  Let's pull this back a little bit. But I would
• 37:06
  say that my high performer post, which was my
• 37:09
  very first one, which has gone like 9 million
• 37:11
  on TikTok and 9 million on Instagram. Yeah. It's
• 37:14
  probably still, I still get pop -ups where it's
• 37:17
  like, oh, this one was just played. And I'm like,
• 37:19
  really? Cool. And that was clear back in May.
• 37:22
  That's amazing. And yeah, we could talk all day
• 37:25
  about the different challenges of that. But I
• 37:26
  think the whole other piece of being a manager
• 37:28
  too is you can't treat everyone the same, right?
• 37:31
  Like you have to support everyone on your team
• 37:33
  differently. And I just would always crack up
• 37:35
  when I would have one -on -ones and the difference
• 37:38
  in the conversations was just insane. Like some
• 37:41
  people needed more hand -holding and more details
• 37:43
  and let's go through to -do lists and like...
• 37:45
  painful details, because I'm not a detailed person.
• 37:47
  And others high performers were like, here's
• 37:49
  three things to do some gone, gone, like 10 minutes,
• 37:52
  which again is great. So you know, if you are
• 37:54
  managing people, it's realizing that one size
• 37:57
  does not fit all. So it's even more challenging.
• 38:00
  That's even why it's more fun to manage people.
• 38:02
  Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like being a parent
• 38:05
  to many, many, many children. Yes. Yeah, exactly.
• 38:08
  You have to treat them differently. And you have
• 38:10
  to give empathy differently. And you have to
• 38:12
  care for them differently and show interest differently.
• 38:14
  Uh, one, you need to be like, why aren't you
• 38:16
  more like your sister? And the other one be like,
• 38:18
  be less like your sister, right? Like it's just,
• 38:20
  it's kind of like that. That's awesome. Well,
• 38:23
  this has been amazing advice. If people want
• 38:25
  to connect with you and be, when hopefully let's
• 38:27
  get you to a million followers in the next few
• 38:28
  months. So where can they find you? Yeah. You
• 38:31
  can find me on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook.
• 38:34
  Uh, and well, and I mean, you can find me also
• 38:36
  on LinkedIn, but it's Linda leads. Linda is with
• 38:40
  a Y and Linda dot leads on. all of those platforms
• 38:43
  and on LinkedIn, it's Linda again with a Y Harvey.
• 38:48
  And I use the same picture, so I'm easily identifiable
• 38:50
  across all the platforms. That's amazing. Well,
• 38:53
  Linda, thank you so much for being here. We greatly
• 38:54
  appreciate your insights. Thank you so much.
• 38:57
  It was fun. Alright, I love this conversation
• 38:59
  with Linda because it wasn't just, here's what's
• 39:01
  wrong. It was, here's what to do next. If you're
• 39:04
  dealing with a micromanager, you heard how much
• 39:06
  of it comes down to trust and how getting proactive
• 39:09
  can sometimes shift the dynamic. If it's a narcissistic
• 39:12
  leader, Linda laid out why staying calm and detached
• 39:14
  matters, plus the power of documentation and
• 39:17
  those follow up notes to keep the record straight
• 39:20
  when the story changes. And if it's bullying
• 39:23
  behavior, you've got a clear path. Document the
• 39:25
  details, escalate right away, and if If no one
• 39:27
  has your back, it may be time to go. If this
• 39:31
  episode, unfortunately, hit home, send it to
• 39:33
  a friend or a teammate who needs it because nobody
• 39:36
  should have to white knuckle their way through
• 39:38
  work. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow
• 39:40
  or subscribe and leave a quick rating or review.
• 39:43
  It helps more women to find our show. Thanks
• 39:47
  for getting loud and lifted.