Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 1 Episode 6 – Danny Cox | Calling and Commitment
Transcript
- Frank Weller: On today's episode of the Better Preaching Podcast, we talk with Danny Cox about how a preacher inspired him to pursue a ministry calling and what we can learn from that. Danny: Hmm. Yeah. ⁓ my goodness, Frank. Thank you so much for having me. It's just an honor. Frank Weller: Danny Cox, welcome to the Better Preaching Podcast. Yeah, well, I'm delighted to have you on and you know, we're gonna we're just gonna hang out together for about a half an hour. And what I really want to do is just kind of unpack your journey to becoming a preacher, your calling some of the people that influenced you. But first, why don't you just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and the congregation you serve. Danny: Yeah, well, my name is Danny. I serve Life Well Christian Church. I actually planted this church, gosh, over seven years ago now. I've been on in-ground for about eight years. And honestly, a little over eight years ago, never even thought church planting was gonna be a part of my paradigm or part of my story. I've always been part of established churches and got a crazy call a little over eight years ago that asked if I'd be interested in a very special project. As a faithful man of God, I, without prayer, told that individual, no, I was not interested. ⁓ But over the next course of a few months, God revealed myself and my wife that it was going to be the next part of our calling as preachers, as pastors, know, Kingdom workers. ⁓ So I started the church a little over seven years ago, and it's been an incredible ride. Never realized how much I'd love church planning until I did it, actually. Frank Weller: So tell us a little bit more about life, where you're located, what the church is like, what are some of the important parts of your missional focus? Danny: Yeah, for sure. So we're located in the northwest corner of Indiana. We're actually right outside of Chicago. It's still considered to be part of Chicagoland. On a good day without traffic, we could actually get into Chicago in about 35, 40 minutes. And ⁓ it's a really a booming area. In fact, ⁓ our area is probably the fastest growing town ⁓ area in the state of Indiana. And a lot of that has to do with what we're referring to as Illinois refugees, people that are escaping, yeah, escaping policy, escaping taxes, different things like that. And so Our area has literally grown by thousands and thousands of houses since we've lived here. Like the cornfields in which we planted the church in and around are all houses now. 8,500 homes have been developed in and around the church since we started seven years ago. And it's just been incredible. Frank Weller: And you're getting the bears. Danny: Possibly the ham and bears. We'll see how that goes. I know people are really excited about it. We will welcome them in. They're in the same situation as a lot of the residents. They're trying to figure out how to do business cheaper and Indiana is just a great climate to do that for sure. Frank Weller: Yeah, you I grew up in Northeast Indiana, so on the other side of the state from you. And this was pre Indianapolis Colts. So the Colts came to town in 83, but man, I grew up in everybody ⁓ in my town were Bears fans. you know, ⁓ 19 of the 84 Bears are Jim McMahon and refrigerator Perry and, and Walter Payton, man, those were some teams. And it's, it's funny for me to think that the Bears might be coming to Indiana. That's just wild. Danny: Well, hey, they had a good season last year. Let's see if they could build upon it. Yeah, that'd be Indiana. Yeah. ⁓ 100%. Frank Weller: Yeah, that'd be great. And build upon an Indiana. The Hoosier state will take that tax revenue. Absolutely. Well, listen, before we get too much further, I just want to take a moment and say that the Better Preaching podcast is powered by Great Lakes Christian College, where their new master's degree in practical theology brings students face to face with passionate professors for real time instruction and genuine community. Students make friends, ask questions and get real time feedback. from accessible professors who love God and revere scripture. You'll get practical and go deep at GLCC. So for more details, go to glcc.edu. Danny, I love how God called you into ministry and I love even more how he made it possible for you to pursue that calling. Can you share that story with our listeners? Danny: Yeah, so I think like a lot of preachers, our story started on, you know, fairly early in life. I didn't know ministry was even a possibility ⁓ until my senior pastor, a man by the name of Mack McRoy, I grew up in Southern California, actually Southern California kid, and I was just very, very fortunate to go to a very healthy, loving church. And ⁓ I had one of those, ⁓ you know, as the Ferguson's would say in their book, Hero Maker, I had a pastor that put his arm around me and had one of those I see in you moments early on, I'm talking like seventh, eighth grade. And he kind of just emphasized what he saw in me, which was crazy because I didn't even see that in myself. he kind of had like one of those, what I do, I think you have the ability, the capacity to do and really encouraged me to be a part of that. And not only through that, but going to a very healthy church, the people that invested in me, the people that... you know, we're in my children's ministry, youth ministry, those type of things. They all emphasized ⁓ this calling in my life and I was just encouraged to pursue this. And so I felt like I've known from a very early age that ministry, that preaching was gonna be part of my calling. But honestly, I didn't know that that would be my calling or that even that I had the ability to do that until someone said, you know, I see this ⁓ in you. And so I had one of those very pivotal conversations, people that believed in me, a pastor that... invested in me and it changed my life and trajectory and what God would call me to do. Frank Weller: And what I love about that story, Danny, is that these weren't folks just saying, hey, you ought to consider ministry. These were people who put some money behind that. mean, they put their money where their mission was, and ⁓ that really opened some doors for you too. Danny: ⁓ And in ways you don't even know about. So ⁓ I grew up in a house, my parents had their struggles, don't get me wrong. But when I told them I was gonna be going into ministry, my lovingly Christian parents told me, no you weren't. They wanted me to aspire to other things. They knew the struggles. mean, they knew pastors, they knew preachers. They knew the financial concerns, different things like that. And they just wanted other things of me. They wanted me to pursue the business world. They wanted me go out and make money, quote unquote, live the life. ⁓ And so I actually had to get to the point where I told my parents, said, no, I really believe this is what God wants me to do. And so ⁓ without their permission and without their blessing, I left a Bible college. And with that, ⁓ I had no idea how to pay for Bible college, how God was going to provide that. ⁓ Mack McRoy, that pastor that I told you about, I went and I talked to him about this and went and talked to my youth pastor who would take over the church at that time, ⁓ Mike Maola, and ⁓ I left California not knowing ⁓ how I would pay. I went to Cincinnati Bible College and seminary that would eventually turn into CCU, and we all know that story. ⁓ But ⁓ I left not knowing how I would pay for it. But by the time I got out of California, I got a call from that pastor, Mack Mack Roy, and said, hey, I've talked with people in the church and ⁓ just get to Cincinnati, Danny, because we've already raised funds and monies to pay for your entire first semester room and board. He's like, so just get there and we'll figure it out. And the incredible thing behind that is I was traveling from California to Cincinnati and I went in lieu of Denver, Colorado, because I had an uncle and an aunt that lived there. And so I figured, hey, free lodging, go that way. About 20 minutes before I pulled up to their house, that same pastor, Mack McRoy, called me and he said, Danny, where are you? And I said, I'm almost to my destination. We're gonna be staying the night. And he said, I need you to pull over. And I said, Mack, I've been driving for like 16 hours. I've said, let me call you back in 20 minutes. And he said, no, Danny, I don't think you understand. I need you to pull the car over. And so I did. And I'll never forget, because I pulled into a bank parking lot and he proceeds to tell me that I need you to call this lady in Davenport, Iowa. asked him, said, why? He's like, stop asking so many questions. He's like, Danny, there's this lady I need you to call and I need you to tell her her story. I need you to tell her your calling. I need you to tell her your experience, the whole nine. And so I ended up calling this lady. Her name was Velma. Never heard of this lady before, never talked to this lady. She had no idea who I was up to that point. But to make a very long story short, I talked to her, told her that I was studying to be a preacher. And at the end of that conversation with some stipulations, that lady committed to paying for the entirety of my undergraduate degree. ⁓ A lady ⁓ to this day that I've only met one time at an ICOM conference for 10 minutes. She's already gone to be with the Lord. ⁓ But to this day, I had a lady pay for the entirety of my undergraduate degree that when I get to heaven, I'll get to know her a little bit more, but ⁓ it just affirmed that no, this was. Frank Weller: Wow. Danny: God's calling on my life and I just, I couldn't have written that story. Just no way. Frank Weller: That's fantastic. So your calling came really early and it came through Mac and through your youth pastor and others in the church. But there was resistance, right, from your parents. so, I mean, how did you navigate that? Should I, shouldn't I? How did you work through, ⁓ you know, really, what did it take to really convince you then that Danny: for sure. Frank Weller: You were called to be a pastor. Danny: Well, I felt called since middle school, but that didn't mean I didn't have my time of rebellion. Right out of high school, I knew I was supposed to be going straight to Bible college. At that point, I didn't know which Bible college I was supposed to go to. I was looking at Hope International because I was Southern California based. I was looking at William Jessup Ozark. ⁓ But during that time, 18 years old, I was dating a girl out of high school. And I actually had a conversation with her. about going into ministry and I asked her, said, if I went into ministry, would you follow me? And she very bluntly said, absolutely not. And so ⁓ I pursued that relationship for about another year, ⁓ denied my calling for that time. And the more and more I pursued this girl, the worse my relationship with God, kind of God, ⁓ and God very patiently ⁓ and lovingly brought me back. ⁓ I finally knew I was supposed to drop the gal and... Frank Weller: Hmm. Danny: and to go and so during that time and just trying to navigate that again, my parents were good intentions. They weren't necessarily against ministry. I think they just were very aware of the struggle. Very aware. ⁓ They had relationships with pastors. They knew it would never be the most ⁓ affluent job to go into. My parents were very business minded, doing very well in Southern California and so ⁓ their intentions were more they wanted the best for their son and so I think when they saw my resolve, when they saw that I really felt like this was what God was calling me to. And they had seen that in the past because I had the opportunity to go on mission trips from a young age. They knew I had the passion, I had the love. I mean, I'd spent weeks in the Samoan Islands building houses in Mexico. And so they knew it wasn't just some hobby or something I was interested in. So when they finally came home from work one day, my car was packed up and I told them I felt like God wanted me to do this. I gave him a hug and I left. I think they, yeah, I think they were, yeah. Well, especially because I only had enough money to get to Cincinnati and that was about it. I went with the money that I made from my summer job. And by the way, from when I finally stopped dating that girl to when I left to Cincinnati, it might've been five, six weeks. It was quick. Frank Weller: Wow, that's a bold move. Yeah. Yeah. Danny: Yeah, it was really quick. Frank Weller: Well, know, Mack is a legend, Mackleroy, and, you know, I've been able to meet him through our connections with the Solomon Foundation. Just what an impressive individual. And he's had just a huge impact on a lot of people's lives in a lot of different ways. People in our generation, yours and mine, I we talk a lot about the ministry pipeline and where the next generation of preachers are going to be coming from. There's concern because pastors are growing older and we don't see enough Danny: Man, yeah. Frank Weller: younger individuals entering the ministry to backfill those retirements. You're a preacher now. You're the guy who's Mac now. What is the role that you and I and other pastors have in fostering that next generation of ministers? What do we do to fulfill our responsibility to fill that ministry pipeline? Danny: You know, that's a phenomenal question. One, we need to focus on discipleship. And then we also, I think, need to convey to parents that this is ⁓ a ministry and a calling and a career worth pursuing. It's really interesting. think just like my parents, ⁓ I think a lot of parents within even the congregations don't see ministry as a viable calling. a ministry path that they want their kids to pursue. And that's really, think the hard thing is we have Christian parents all over our nation that don't want ministry for their kids. ⁓ And I don't think that they're necessarily against it. I think they're, you know, a lot of times like my parents well-intentioned, but they need to see that ministry is an incredible calling, something that could be ⁓ incredibly. ⁓ life filling and life like I honestly don't know what I would do outside of ministry. It's what I think I've gained my purpose, my mission. ⁓ I name my church LifeWell because I don't think that you can live life well outside of a relationship with Jesus Christ and the fact that I get to call people to that and call them to discipleship, help them take their next step in their discipleship journey ⁓ is just phenomenal. But also I think pastors ⁓ like myself we need to be willing to have those ICU and moments within the next generation. Like we need to wrap our arms around specifically, I think young men, but not just men, young women too, and say, I see this in you. I think you have the ability to do what we do. And I think you have the gifting and really challenge people to rise up to a call that. Frank Weller: Yes. Danny: ⁓ could change their life and not just their life, but the life of life of others. And so again, I didn't know I could do ministry. I didn't know I could be a church planner until someone told me I could. And those conversations were absolutely pivotal in my life going forward. Frank Weller: Yeah, I agree that I see in you conversation is so really important. You know, when I was in high school and was contemplating what I was going to do, I was kind of looking at my go. Am I going to go to Purdue and become a farmer? Am I going to go to? ⁓ college and become a music educator. And I had a particularly good day when I took the ACT and just kind of one those days when you take a test and I don't know just everything's kind of flowing. So I scored okay on the ACT and my guidance counselor called me into the office and said, you know, it's pretty good score. I think this opens some doors for you. Where are you thinking about going to college? And I told her I'm thinking about going to Great Lakes Christian College. And she said to me, I'll never forget this. She said, why would you waste your life doing that? Now from a guidance counselor, that's upsetting, but this woman was a member of our church. And as I think back on that, that's just shocking. One of the hallmarks of the congregation I grew up in is they sent a lot of folks into ministry, particularly mission work, because they had those ICNU conversations. man, we've got to get back to doing that. We've got to get back to pointing out to... Danny: Yeah. Frank Weller: to the best and the brightest young people that we know in our churches and in our communities that there is no higher calling than to pursue a life of vocational ministry. Danny: Well and just the adventure behind it. I mean goodness I because of my calling I've been able to go to over 20 countries and preach in 17 in them ⁓ Been able to do ministry in Arizona and Oklahoma and Indiana. It's been remarkably fulfilling I've been very very fortunate that I've had experience at healthy churches that doesn't mean hasn't been a grind and hasn't been tough but I I think ministers need to convey and I mean we all know people that get drugged down pretty hard in ministry and ministry can be very difficult and I'm not saying it's all roses, but ⁓ I've loved ministry. I would honestly have no idea what I would do outside of it. And I think that's one of the things that pastors really need to convey is, hey, this is actually worth doing too. Like, yeah. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. And you look, you know, you do there are other occupations where you're to make a lot more money. I think like an actuary, right? A friend of mine became an actuary. Good guy does good work and makes a ton of money figuring out when people are going to die. You and I don't make a lot of money, but we get to help people live forever. And you know, there isn't there's no other. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And there's no other. Danny: 100%. Yeah. ⁓ my gosh, Yeah. And the Lord is always, the Lord is always provided. Yeah. Yeah. Frank Weller: occupation I know of that has the eternal impact of what you and I and others do in ministry and preaching. So I think that's fantastic. Well, listen, let me pause for just a moment. I want to say another word from our sponsors at Great Lakes Christian College. Your week is full. There are sermons, staff meetings, visits with your congregation, and GLCC gets it. Our new master's degree in practical theology offers convenience without sacrificing community and real instructional support from professors with actual pastoral experience. It's built for leaders who want depth and not fluff. You can get more details at glcc.edu. Danny, I know you stay connected to several other preachers. Some are older guys that you admire. Others are guys that are closer to your age, that are your peers. Who are some of those guys and how do you benefit from those relationships? Danny: You know, I actually think the Restoration Church is sitting pretty when it comes to preachers, when it comes to pastors that are out there. Some of these guys I've been able to be directly influenced by. Some of them I admire from far, whether they're books, they're writings that are preaching. ⁓ But ⁓ just people that I've been influenced by, obviously former youth pastors, that'd be Mike Meola, ⁓ Mike Howerton, just great guys early on. But even ⁓ being able to be influenced by Kyle and Ken Eidelman. Now I don't know Kyle, but it's incredible to me that a Ken Eidelman takes it upon himself to call on me and when he's in town to take me out to lunch. And that's true of Andy Hanson and other people that I've been able to. just even from far be ministered to from Mark Moore or Jim Putnam or ⁓ we got some incredible young guys in the pipeline from Matt Wilson and Nathan Freeman and Jimmy McLeod and ⁓ Chad Goucher out in ⁓ Arizona calls me, texts me, loves on me, ⁓ Jason Price, Matt Merrold. ⁓ Dr. Gary Johnson down in Indianapolis. We have an incredible network of people that reach out, that generally show concern for you. ⁓ And I think we have some of the best preachers and pastors in the business. Like our churches, some of them are doing absolutely incredible. They're doing phenomenal things for the kingdom. And ⁓ I'm just very fortunate, it's because some of the networks I've been a part of, would that be? Great Lakes with Ozark with the Salmon Foundation that I've been able to rub shoulders with these guys and just been, I admire them in so many different ways. And a lot of them don't even know I do admire them, but just watching them and listening to afar, we've got an incredible ⁓ group of ⁓ preachers that are out there that are doing awesome things. And ⁓ it's a pleasure just to be able to be in their network. Frank Weller: Yeah. And I think that's the key word that you brought up. There's that word network. You said that a couple of different times. You know, a lot of times, know, guys can feel like they're the only one out there and they're struggling. They're on their own. They're on an island. How do you suggest that preachers like that get connected with a network, whether it's Solomon Foundation or one of the church planting networks or a group built around a shared learning experience? I mean, what are some ways that guys can get connected to those kinds of networks? Danny: Yeah, I've that. So I've lived on that island. I ministered in Oklahoma for six years. It was probably some of the loneliest time in ministry I've ever had. I've had a lot, ⁓ I guess greater success networking in Oklahoma outside of the Restoration Church, other churches that would reach out to me. ⁓ But sometimes I think we need to recognize we can put ourself on an island. ⁓ And you need to be intentional about that. You need to be intentional about building those relationships. ⁓ going to the places where those people are. I've always been amazed that if there's pastors that I admire or I want to learn from, picking up the phone and calling them and asking them, hey, could I spend some time with you? ⁓ Could we get on the phone together? Could I come see your church? I've always been amazed. I don't know too many people that have ever told me no. They might have said not this week, but they've always been able to get me on their schedule. And ⁓ I think just because I've had men that are ahead of me that have invested in me, I've seen the value. in that and making sure that's a part of my life. And again, I've been very fortunate, started a church with Ignite Church Planning. ⁓ And so when I started a church with an organization, I was built into a network. that was healthy, that encouraged me. I started a partnership with the Salmon Foundation and they just happened to put a lot of resources into ministering to their pastors, their spouses. And so I get to go on conference every year with those groups. But I think it's just the intentionality about it. You gotta want it. ⁓ It's very easy to isolate yourself. I think the devil wants us to isolate ourself. And so just be willing to make those phone calls, get in those cohorts, establish yourself in those networks or invite yourself. or at least have a conversation where you see if you could join a network and to see how that might benefit you and your ministry. Frank Weller: Yeah, I think that's great advice. I have a friend of mine who, this has been probably 20 plus years ago, contacted me and said, hey, do you suppose so-and-so would have time to meet with me? He was going through a difficult patch of ministry. And this is a guy who's really well known. At the time, was preaching at a church of probably around 20,000 people. And I said, yeah, no, I don't think he'd have the time to do that. My friend, who's bolder than me, said, well, you know what? I'm going to call him and ask anyway. And sure enough, yeah, this guy made time to meet with him. And then my friend drug me along on the meeting just to kind of think rub my nose in it. They got to meet this guy, just a genuine, humble guy doing amazing things. But, ⁓ you know, took the time and still does, takes the time to meet with ⁓ the generations coming behind him just to encourage and support. I just, I think you're right. There are the number of people who won't. connect with someone else to encourage them in ministry is much smaller than those who will. You just got to have the boldness to ask. Let me ask you this. What about the state of preaching as a pursuit or a body of work or, know, what is it about preaching right now that has you really excited? And what is it right now that maybe has you a little concerned, if anything? Danny: Yeah. Well, we've talked about some of concerns. I'll get that in a second. But ⁓ I think what's still really excites me about the state of preaching is I still believe in the power of the gospel being proclaimed. ⁓ I think throughout church history, God has used preaching and His word as one of the primary ways to reveal truth to this world, to call people to Him. And I just, I am a firm believer that there is absolute power in preaching ⁓ for whatever reason within our culture. think... You know, I've been all over the world in a lot of places and house churches and different things like that still take effect. And I still think they have their place here in the United States. But for whatever reason, people in the United States are still, if they try out a church, are still comfortable congregating on a Sunday morning. And ⁓ churches, it's really interesting. ⁓ I think churches, ⁓ there's almost, if you want to become a, have a niche within the church, ⁓ preach the gospel. ⁓ effectively and accurately and truthfully. And I think that'll set you apart from a lot of the churches that are out there. And so if you're someone, isn't that crazy? Like if you actually preach the word of God faithfully, you will become a niche church. Like people, I've actually found that the more centered I am to the gospel, the more I proclaim yes love, but in truth, it becomes the reason why people come to my church because they've tried other things. They're not hearing it there. And so I, Frank Weller: That's a remarkable statement. Yeah. Danny: there's still power in the word of God. I still think it's just as live and active as it ever has been. I believe it's the truth and that excites me. It really, really does. ⁓ As far as the concerns, we already talked about one of them, the pipeline. Pipeline and young preachers coming up is a concern. I even, ⁓ I went to Cincinnati when I said Cincinnati was worth going to ⁓ and obviously, unfortunately, they're no longer there. But even, ⁓ When I graduated, which was not that long time ago, I ended my schooling in 2006. I think I was one of four or five preaching majors ⁓ at a school that at one time boasted of their preaching program. And so ⁓ I think the pipeline is of definite concern. like I said, preaching the word of God ⁓ effectively and accurately and actually standing on the word of God, if that makes you a niche church, that's a concern to me. Watered-down preaching, the type of preaching that just tickles someone's ears, the type of preaching that is, you know, more worried about being politically correct. There's a concern. think ⁓ preachers need to preach both compassionately and courageously. Yeah, yeah. Frank Weller: Yes, I want to drill into that for just a moment. thought that was a really interesting statement that you made ⁓ before we went on the podcast that preaching has to be both compassionate and courageous. And it just strikes me that there's real tension in that. And I'm just interested to know how you manage that tension. Danny: ⁓ probably to the best of my ability. I'm not perfect at it. ⁓ I, know, I probably stumble and fall just as much as, ⁓ as anyone. I would say for me, ⁓ compassion isn't one of my strong suits as far as things that come natural to me. I probably more lean on courageous. I, and so that's where I probably get myself more in trouble is not being too bold, but, ⁓ I try not to make statements just to get a rise out of people or just to. you know, set myself apart. Blending in the compassion for me is actually the thing that doesn't come more natural. so, ⁓ with that, it's just trying to figure out how to walk in grace and truth, ⁓ making sure that my pendulum isn't swung over too far than others. I actually even made this comment earlier today based off of a frustrated meeting, but sometimes, you know, as a preacher, I feel like it's easier for me, or there are times where I should say I want to talk the love of Jesus into someone. But sometimes with my personality, it's just easier to beat the devil out of someone. And so ⁓ with that, it's just remembering the work that Jesus has done on my life, ⁓ realizing that, I mean, I really can care less if anybody even knows the name of Danny Cox. My goal, my job is to proclaim the name of Jesus and to point people to him. And in our culture, ⁓ that's gonna conflict. But one of the things that we also need to remember is that's always conflicted with culture. Like there's absolutely nothing new about that. so ⁓ realizing that a lot of the same struggles, a lot of the same questions that we're preachers for the last 2000 years have dealt with the same things. And so just trying to stay faithful as possible and remember what's really gonna stick out is preachers that preach the word God effectively, boldly and truthfully. Frank Weller: Yeah, it's that John 1 14, right? Jesus came full of grace and truth. And there's always tension in that, you know, when, when, preaching is has grace without truth that can lead to hedonism, but when you have truth without grace, it can lead to legalism. And so the challenge is for us to, just manage that tension. And it's easier to do, I think one-on-one because one-on-one I can, I can kind of know, okay, do I need to lead with grace? The closer someone is to Jesus, I think the more you're able to lead with truth, the farther someone is with Danny: you. Exactly. Frank Weller: from Jesus, you need to have a certain sensibility. see that when Jesus is dealing with two women from very different circumstances, the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery, right? There's both grace and truth, but in one instance, he leads with grace, the other he leads with truth. Well, there's a whole sermon, whole other podcast in that. Danny: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Can I bring up one more concern? Just one more point that I really hope, especially young preachers, ⁓ I really think there's a need within preaching ⁓ to commit to churches long-term. ⁓ And what I mean by that is God just put a conviction on my heart when I started this church. I don't like to tell God anything, ⁓ but I told God I would give life well 25 years of my life. And ⁓ there's a concern that I have of... you know, when the grass is greener on the other side, sometimes it's easier to bail jump ship as opposed to, you know, actually watering your lawn. And I think there'd be a real benefit of the church if pastors, especially young pastors would say, you know what, I'm gonna give this church 20 years of my life. No one's gonna be able to steal me. No one's gonna be able to pull me away, you know, unless God specifically calls, that's another thing. But ⁓ I just think nowadays it's so easy to bail and to bail too quickly that I think if preachers had a resolve of, I'm in this for the long term. think that would greatly benefit the church right now. Frank Weller: Yeah, man, I agree. man, we're gonna have you back on. I want to talk more about how you prepare for and deliver sermons. But it sounds like we could have you on a couple different times and really explore a couple different topics. But for now, hey, I want to thank you, Danny, I want to thank our sponsor Great Lakes Christian College. And I want to thank our BP2 community for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching podcast. Join us next time Danny: Yeah. Yeah. Frank Weller: for an insightful conversation, because Better Preaching makes a bigger impact.