Latest / Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt / CI to Eye | The New Generation of Arts Leaders

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CI to Eye | The New Generation of Arts Leaders · Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt

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Hi gang, it's Christopher Williams.
0:51
Over my 30+ years working in the arts,
0:54
I've had the enormous privilege of collaborating with so many remarkable
0:59
arts leaders and advocates.
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And over the last decade I have observed a significant shift as a new
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generation of inspiring and determined individuals begin
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moving into leadership positions,
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and they're challenging traditional notions about the management of cultural
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organizations. So it got me thinking,
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what does this new wave of arts leaders see as the future of our industry?
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And what can their fresh perspectives teach us about leadership?
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In today's episode, I'll sit down with three individuals who, in my eyes,
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represent this new generation of arts leadership: bold, passionate,
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and driven to move our industry forward. You'll hear from Rachel Hagemeier,
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President and CEO of the Canton Symphony Orchestra; Monica Holt,
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Senior Vice President of Artistic Planning and Production at the Kennedy Center
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for the Performing Arts; and my boss, CI's own President,
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Priya Iyer Doshi. We'll talk about the generational shifts in leadership styles,
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how they stay true to their creative visions while navigating the complexities
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of people management,
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and the changes they hope to see in their respective arts communities and the
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industry at large.
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Our conversations left me feeling so incredibly optimistic and excited for the
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future of our field. So buckle up. It's going to be a good one.
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Rachel Hagemeier, welcome to CI to Eye.
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Thank you. Very excited to be here today.
2:34
So you have such an interesting story and before we get to
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what I feel like is the headline of your story,
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I would love for you to just tell us what drew you to the
2:47
arts as a young person.
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So I grew up in the world of bluegrass. My dad's a bluegrass musician,
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so I grew up with that all around me all the time.
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And when I was probably 10 or so,
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I was at the Walnut Valley Bluegrass Festival in Winfield,
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Kansas where I still go every year.
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And there was a woman named Nicolasa Kuster who is a bassoonist.
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And so she was jamming around a campfire with everyone else playing bassoon at a
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bluegrass festival. And I said,
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"This is the coolest thing I've ever seen," and told my dad I'm going to play
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that. And he said, okay, sure. He had no idea what a bassoon was.
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And so then I started playing music and being a bassoonist and doing
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all the youth symphony things and started attending orchestra and I got a
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performance degree, but I never wanted to be a performer. I loved to play,
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but I didn't want it to become my job.
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And so that's where I really fell into arts administration as a thing I wanted
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to do.
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So it's always been around me and I still try to play as much as I can and all
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that good stuff, but it's a comfort. It's like a home space for me. So...
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Yeah.
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How did you decide that you didn't want performance to be your job?
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So I saw the people who made it happen.
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I saw the executive director of my youth symphony and all the hard work that he
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was doing,
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and I saw the people who were doing
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ticket sales,
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and just realizing how many people it takes to make the arts
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happen.
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And I think it's so fulfilling to be able to make this stuff happen
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and to think about the longevity of the arts. I mean,
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I want to be able to say that by the end of my career,
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I've impacted how orchestras are going to be able to
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survive in the future,
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and think about it that way so that our amazing musicians can continue to do
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what they do.
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One of my biggest hopes in my own career is to just have a world
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where many more young people know that there
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is a career track and its name is Arts Administration.
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And perhaps we can both relate to this in the same way that our exposure-I
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identify as a Midwesterner,
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being from southwest Missouri-and my exposure to the arts is much
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different than a lot of people who I'm around today.
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And I never knew that this was something that you could do for a
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living.
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Do you feel like that's still something we have a lot of work to do in as an
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industry?
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Yes. Oh, for sure. In the past, I guess,
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Covid years and now the couple years after,
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a lot more programs have been appearing.
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We've seen a lot more master's levels programs appearing that have the title
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Arts Administration.
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Now I think where we still have a lot of work to do is that within
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those programs, what are the actual skills that we're teaching?
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What are the hard skills that we're teaching?
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And I also think that the understanding of business
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is, I think,
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something that we still need to work on about how important it is to understand
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that arts organizations are a business and have a product,
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and you might have nonprofit in your title, but you have to make money.
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Nonprofit is a tax status.
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Yes, nonprofit is a tax status. It is not the act of not making money.
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It's so incredibly crucial.
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And so working with our schools of business to really lift up the arts
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through a nonprofit lens and understanding that, I think,
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still has some work to be done. But it's lovely to see more programs popping up.
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We need good arts professionals in the field right now. We really do.
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We really, really, really do.
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You were promoted to CEO when you were 25 years old, which is incredible.
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And it made you the youngest CEO in Canton Symphony's history.
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And my first reaction before I even ask my question is just like,
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I am dying to sort of hear how that happened because
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in a lot of ways I'm like, wow,
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who are the other leaders in the organization and the board that made this
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possible? I think it's awesome.
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Yeah, that meme of Paul Rudd going, "Who would've thought? Look at us.
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Who would've thought? Not me." For a long time I was like,
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I have no business being here. What is going on?
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I also felt that when I started as Manager of Education, though.
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They hired me right out of school and I was so scared about my age
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and was so... When I was 21, I was like, oh,
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no one's going to take me seriously.
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And then every colleague in the field was like, why are you worried about this?
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Maybe someone will make a comment, maybe someone will,
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but that's not someone who's going to be a good collaborator or colleague
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anyway, so you do your job and see what happens.
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And if it does become an issue, then we'll address it.
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Don't assume it's going to be an issue.
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And so I kind of had that feeling when I became CEO. I was still very
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surprised at the whole thing. I did not think it was going to happen,
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but I was ready to do the next thing.
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I had been Manager of Education and I was ready to do something else.
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I felt like I'd really learned what I could do,
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and I saw there was no way for me to move up at the Canton Symphony.
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There's only so many people.
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And there's not upward mobility.
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So I was looking for jobs and I had a job offer and the
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day I was going to tell our CEO at the time that I was going to take that job,
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she announced she was leaving the same day. And I went,
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okay, let's just take a beat really quick.
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What hurt does it do to throw my hat in the ring?
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And so I went to our CEO and I said,
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I would be interested in maybe throwing my hat in the ring for this
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position. What's the timeline? What is the board thinking?
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And she said to me very surprisingly, well,
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the board is thinking about making you interim. And I was like...
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Wow.
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...Really? Okay. I was very flattered by that.
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I have good relationships with our board members. I knew them.
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I guess the quality of my work had showed to them with what I'd been able to do
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with the community engagement and educational programming.
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And then I was a little bit ballsy and I said,
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I don't want to take something that's not necessarily a guarantee.
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I would love to take this position, but only if I'm not interim.
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And they offered it to me and it was very surprising and I didn't quite know
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what to do with it. And it was very,
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very scary and I was stressed out of my mind.
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Being 25 at the time,
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what was the biggest challenge and what is also
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the biggest benefit to your youth at the time or even now?
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So to my point earlier of people bringing up my age now,
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a lot of people, they're just surprised that I'm young.
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They're not put off by it. I have had donors come up to me and say,
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I was skeptical at first, but now I'm fine.
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And I think it's just: do your job. If you do your job and do it well,
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the age thing is not going to be a big deal. It doesn't matter.
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And so I think it serves me well because people see
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the freshness.
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A lot of people say the organization feels like it has a fresh perspective.
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Our board is a fairly young board now.
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We've brought on board members that are close to my age and they feel
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comfortable joining a board. Because I'm the leader,
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it's less intimidating because there's someone their age.
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So there's a lot of pros and cons for sure.
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Cons is that I don't have as much experience,
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and so I'm having to read a lot of stuff and learn a lot of things,
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but it's fun.
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Yeah. Well, you mentioned this, you worked as-before being CEO,
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you worked as the manager of education and community engagement at the Canton
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Symphony.
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What was that transition like for you when you transitioned from sort of the day
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to day weeds work and community engagement that one does in a position like that
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to your executive job now?
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Yeah, it's interesting.
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I think that we're a small arts organization,
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and so everyone is boots on the ground a lot of the time with everything.
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The biggest shift for me was that it was hard for me to not
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be the one doing every little thing all of the time.
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And I think the biggest thing is to learn to trust your staff
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and know that they know what they're doing.
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I think that I'm so incredibly lucky at the Canton Symphony that we have a staff
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where we've gotten to a place, it didn't happen overnight,
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but we've gotten to a place where we know how to communicate with each other.
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I know that I can trust them to do their jobs,
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but I started working with a leadership coach who really helped me
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understand you have your way of operating as a human,
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the way that you want to talk to people,
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the way that you want to communicate with people,
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and so does everyone else. And the best thing that you can do as a manager is
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take the time to get to know every single employee and what that means for them,
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because you're going to have to shift the way you have a conversation about
12:06
failure depending on which employee you're talking to.
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You can't talk about it in the way that necessarily you would.
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And so it's very incredibly helpful to have those tools in your
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toolbox. Suddenly people started feeling more comfortable to say,
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I don't like it when you do this, or I really need you to help me with this.
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Did you have a natural curiosity to want to make some of these changes?
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Really realizing, oh,
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I do need to understand how everyone ticks in order to iterate myself amongst my
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staff. Did you come to that naturally or was that work for you?
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Yes, and. I think that when I first started as CEO,
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I was so concerned about a few things. One,
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I needed to get people to buy into me as a leader as fast as humanly possible.
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I'm the youngest person in the office. I know what I'm doing.
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I need to convince them that I do know what I'm doing,
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but I don't know everything.
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And I need to be able to assert myself as
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a boss and as someone with a vision,
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but also so that when I ask questions, it's not,
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it's because of curiosity and wanting to be better at my own job.
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And so I really quickly wanted to get to know the staff.
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I wanted the staff to feel safe at the organization.
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And then we had a rough spring of 2023.
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Lots of change. People were angry, they were stressed,
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they were burnt out. The schedule was just back-to-back concerts.
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Everyone was burnt out. And I was like, this is bad.
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I have to figure out something.
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And so I kind of was forced into realizing, oh,
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you need to be way more intentional with this.
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You can't just assume that because you knew these people before you were their
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boss, that you know them now. The relationship is very different,
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and you need to get to know them on a how they tick,
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how they need to be managed, how do they like to communicate?
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You need to get to know them at that level. It's not easy,
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but it definitely is worth it when you're able to really rally a team together
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at the end.
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.
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Have you had a situation where you feel convicted about
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something or the way you have culturally decided to handle it or decided through
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your own values to handle it, and in those moments, the world is saying, "No,
14:28
Rachel,
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we do it this way" and you have to sort of push-pull in those
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moments and decide,
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am I going to traverse my own values and do it their way or am I going to stick
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to my guns? And then felt very conflicted after that?
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Yeah. Oh, so many.
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I figured.
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I got so much advice about how to be a CEO.
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That's exactly what I wanted you to answer.
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And so much of it was really good advice. A lot of really, really good advice.
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And some of it, I got it and I went, what?
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Are you kidding me? That's how we do things?
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And it was everything I didn't want from my boss that they were telling me to
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do.
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I got a piece of advice that said,
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and there's a bit of truth in this, but there's a big old caveat,
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where you can't be friends with your employees.
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Oh God, yes. This is a classic one.
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You can't be friends with your employees.
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And what they mean is you need to
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be able to create defined and agreed upon lines of
15:35
professionalism while at work that if they need to come down,
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everyone understands why they're coming down and that we've shifted into a
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different mode. That's what that means.
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That doesn't mean you can't be friends with your employees.
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I'm very much friends with my employees.
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Nuance.
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We go to karaoke often,
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but my relationship is different with them because I do need to
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have a wall up so that if I need to make a hard decision,
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I make the hard decision.
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But understanding that is so key. And when I got that piece of advice,
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I was shocked. And then I didn't know how to actually deal with it,
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and the lines were blurred,
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and it got really messy and I almost became not friends with my
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employees because of it. And so that was a really interesting
16:25
one to navigate. I had to stumble into figuring out what to do there.
16:29
Union negotiations were really weird. A lot of people said,
16:34
don't show the finances to the musicians. Don't do it.
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Don't show the finances to the musicians.
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Then they're going to ask too many questions. They're going to know too much.
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They're going to ask too much of you. I was like,
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that feels really counterintuitive. I feel like if they knew the finances,
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then they would understand why I can't give them that thing.
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I would be able to explain it to them and they would be in it with me and
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understand, this is where we're really at.
16:58
So I brought our auditor in and our auditor went through the entire financial
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audit with them, and at the end, they changed so much of what they asked for,
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and I was like...
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But I held off doing that for nine months of negotiations. And I'm like,
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if I'd just done that from the beginning,
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we would've gotten somewhere so much quicker. And now it's like, okay,
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now we're here. So yes, all the time. All the time.
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And it's really hard to know when maybe your conviction is a little
17:27
misplaced and you need to reevaluate it versus when the
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gut is right, the system is wrong. It's tricky.
17:36
The gut's the key, right?
17:37
It is the key.
17:38
Your gut is almost always going to lead you to the right decisions.
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I think leaders often learn that.
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You make the decision you think you're supposed to make and your gut is flipping
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over and going inside out,
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and then you realize six months later it was the wrong choice and you're like,
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I should have listened to my gut. So,
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think about the other managers of education and outreach who are out there right
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now. And thinking about those folks who want to move into leadership positions,
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what would you say to them?
18:08
Yeah,
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I think that this is a field that you have so much room to play
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with, and there's so many different things happening in the field of arts
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administration and honestly,
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our field right now needs younger people,
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needs younger people to come in with all these fresh ideas and to think
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about things differently. So get to know your local orchestra.
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Go talk to those people, do an informational interview. They'll be so excited.
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Oh my gosh. They'll be so excited that someone wants to know about their job.
18:40
They will. Go shadow for a day. Just get to know the organization.
18:46
I did tons of informational interviews. It was my favorite.
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I just called people and talk to them. I still do it.
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I love them! People love to do them.
18:52
I still do. And people love it. Oh, people love talking about themselves.
18:55
People love it. I love talking to young people.
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I've convinced now three people to go into arts
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administration. We're trying to tick it up higher, but we're working on it.
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We're working on it.
19:08
Okay. Rachel, you have reached what we call the CI to Eye moment.
19:11
If you could broadcast one message to executive directors,
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leadership teams, staff, and boards of a thousand arts organizations,
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what would it be?
19:23
Thank you for all the work that you do. This is a really hard field.
19:29
Being a CEO can be incredibly lonely.
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So boards: look after your CEOs. They need the support.
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And the more verbal you are with it, the better.
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And with that,
19:44
verbally celebrating the fact that we get to do what we do.
19:50
We're very lucky that we get to make art happen.
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We are very lucky that we get to witness amazing creators all the time
19:59
and to remind ourselves that when it is really hard,
20:01
when we look at the field and we're like,
20:04
the funding is going away. All of the grants,
20:09
we don't even qualify for them anymore.
20:11
All the United Arts funds are disappearing. What are we going to do?
20:15
Art is resilient, and we are resilient,
20:18
and we will come up with ways to navigate this if we remind ourselves and
20:23
celebrate each other and lift each other up.
20:27
Because the more we celebrate publicly and say things out loud,
20:31
the more communities are going to want to be a part of that celebration,
20:34
want to be a part of this amazing stuff we've got going on.
20:37
And it's hard work and thanks for doing it with us.
20:41
Well, Rachel, I am a fan.
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This has been such an enjoyable time spent for me.
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I cannot wait to see what you do for the field over the course of your career.
20:52
And I thank you so much for spending time with us today.
20:54
Thank you. This was wonderful. I am so happy to talk about this topic. And yeah,
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it's been a really fun little afternoon here with you guys.
21:08
Monica Holt, welcome and welcome back to CI to Eye.
21:13
Thank you so much. I'm happy to be back. It's been a minute.
21:17
Monica, we're aging.
21:18
I think the last time you were on the podcast was 2017, right?
21:22
I was just a young lady trying to make her way in the wild streets
21:27
of nonprofit arts administration.
21:29
I too was a young lady. Well,
21:31
this episode is all about leadership,
21:36
but before we get into that, for people who maybe don't know who you are,
21:40
can you start by just talking about what brought you to the arts in the first
21:45
place?
21:45
Oh, sure.
21:46
I am very lucky and fortunate to have grown up in a household where the
21:51
arts were part of every day. Music, going to shows in D.C. ...
21:56
I grew up just outside of D.C. so even in my youth,
22:00
I was going to shows at all of the local theaters.
22:04
So I was very fortunate to have a family that was entrenched in the arts,
22:08
and that was with me the whole time as I grew up.
22:11
And I think I didn't really understand what a career in the arts meant outside
22:16
of being a performer until pretty late in college.
22:19
And at that point I realized I had kind of always been on this marketing,
22:22
advertising, branding track in school. Ultimately,
22:26
I ended up looking at mostly marketing and branding jobs and internships.
22:30
And at Washington National Opera,
22:33
I was able to get an internship there,
22:36
and then my first professional career position, I would say,
22:39
as New Media Coordinator.
22:41
And ultimately it was the right timing that led me to Washington National Opera
22:46
because the Kennedy Center affiliated in 2011.
22:49
So I was brought over onto the marketing team here.
22:52
And so that accelerated my journey to a larger performing arts center.
22:58
I'm going to go back to this idea that there are hundreds of us,
23:02
thousands of us,
23:03
who have been band geeks or choir geeks or theater geeks in high school.
23:06
Maybe you're not the most talented person,
23:08
so you're not going to actually act or sing or play,
23:10
but how can you still participate in the arts as a
23:15
career?
23:15
And I still think and believe strongly that we don't do a good job of helping
23:20
people understand you can take that interest and that actually can
23:25
be an administrative career for you that's quite stable and quite rewarding.
23:30
Do you feel like we still have work to do there?
23:33
I completely agree.
23:35
There are so many components and pieces,
23:38
both desk jobs and labor positions,
23:42
that contribute to what brings them joy and entertainment when they see it on
23:46
stage or on screen.
23:48
And it's so important to see some of these projects and goals of what's possible
23:52
because we're missing a lot of imagination and a lot of thought in
23:57
our space for folks who just don't even know these positions exist.
24:01
And I think it's a little more-probably becoming more legible on the marketing
24:05
side, but we have a robust finance team at the Kennedy Center,
24:10
and our VP of Financial Planning has played piano her
24:15
entire life. And that's what led her here is,
24:17
it was her professional skillset and her personal
24:21
passions, interests. And I don't think we show those stories.
24:26
Yeah, it's a topic I feel very strongly about,
24:29
and I think those of us who are here need to get our megaphones
24:33
out and do some labor.
24:35
And sometimes I feel proud of the progress that happens,
24:40
but I then feel like it's restricted only to very expensive degree
24:44
programs. And I don't think that's-in fact,
24:46
I'm evidence that that's not the only way in.
24:50
And I just feel very strongly that we have to give more voice to that. Anyway,
24:54
jumping back to where you sort of ended your story about how you got to the
24:58
arts. First of all,
25:00
tell everyone what you do today at the Kennedy Center.
25:04
Sure.
25:05
I work as the Senior Vice President of Artistic Planning and Production at the
25:10
Kennedy Center. So that is the role today,
25:13
but obviously very different than where I started.
25:17
And so for people who don't know you and are listening,
25:21
one of the reasons why I wanted you to talk about what you do now is because
25:24
that journey is just, it's very uncommon and so interesting.
25:28
And there's a couple of things that I think are notable.
25:30
One is just making the jump from marketing to the programming side is fairly
25:34
unusual in our industry.
25:37
What I think is also uncommon about your journey for your generation,
25:41
not to stereotype a generation,
25:43
is that you have spent all of this time inside of one organization,
25:48
and that's pretty unusual these days.
25:50
So can we start there and hear how you made the hard decisions maybe over the
25:55
years to take different positions within the Kennedy Center and actually stay
25:59
there, which I think is amazing.
26:02
Yes, it is.
26:03
I think I have now officially outlasted all of my friends from college
26:09
in the career game of who can stay at their first place of employment the
26:12
longest. So,
26:15
going back a beat to Washington National Opera... So my role there,
26:19
I was New Media Coordinator.
26:22
And having the word 'new' in your title,
26:26
it gave me a lot of freedom and grace as to how I wanted to
26:31
accomplish the goals that were being set for me.
26:34
That was a very empowering experience,
26:37
not just in my confidence,
26:39
but also in confirming the importance of
26:44
taking on new challenges and educating yourself to try something
26:49
new if you think it is something that will be important to you on your career
26:52
path. So the Kennedy Center affiliated in 2011,
26:56
so I was brought over onto the marketing team here. And then from there,
27:00
the first decision that I had to make career-wise was as some roles opened up on
27:05
the marketing strategy side as opposed to the advertising side,
27:08
deciding if that was the right opportunity to seize. And the way I saw it was,
27:12
yes, it was certainly an opportunity to grow in my career, but again,
27:17
it was also a new skillset for me to learn.
27:20
And over time, the department changed a bit,
27:24
our organizational leadership was changing,
27:26
and I ended up in a role as the director of marketing for the center at a
27:31
time when we needed to be building out more of a marketing team.
27:35
And when I had moved into the manager
27:38
role, the first year was the first time I had ever hired anyone,
27:43
and we were kind of both on training wheels at the same time.
27:47
In the way that I talk about it, she was learning how to do her first job.
27:50
I was learning how to manage someone.
27:52
This is such a good point for me to ask you,
27:56
what were the questions you were asking yourself about what does it mean to be a
28:01
manager, not just of an area,
28:03
but also now I have to be a manager of a person?
28:06
Because I think I now witness a newer generation of individuals who
28:11
really feel hesitant to want to do that.
28:15
And I'm trying to do this podcast series in a way to say, you know what?
28:19
None of us really knew the answers either. So what were you thinking?
28:23
No, none of us knew the answers.
28:25
Right? You learn it.
28:26
None of us knew the answers. I was, again, excited for a challenge,
28:30
but also terrified because it's not just the
28:35
responsibility and a drive to be successful, but it's also,
28:39
it's another human being, right? It's another heartbeat.
28:42
And I think if we all take a beat and think, okay,
28:46
at the end of a tough day at work,
28:48
if you go home and talk to your partner or a friend or a parent on the phone,
28:54
you're going to be talking about some of the characters you work with.
28:57
And probably at some point over the course of a week, a month, a year,
29:02
you're going to be talking about your boss.
29:04
Who do you want to be in those stories? You can't be the hero all the time.
29:09
And to be honest, you also have to make peace with,
29:12
even if you do everything that is aligned with your values and what you feel a
29:16
leader should be accomplishing in a role as a manager,
29:19
you might still be the villain.
29:21
And you have to be able to let go of control.
29:26
Because you don't have it.
29:27
A hundred percent.
29:28
And it's not your right to have any control over that,
29:31
but you have to be able to go home at night,
29:35
acknowledge that you might have an outsized impact on an individual or group of
29:39
individuals' days, weeks, months, years,
29:42
and be able to make peace with yourself.
29:45
And I think that is what terrified me about it.
29:49
The other thing that I could have used more of is leaders willing
29:54
to talk about their struggles.
29:57
A hundred percent.
29:58
And their excitement.
30:00
And sometimes it feels like we've gotten so fixed on what makes a good leader,
30:04
that we're not having the conversation about all of the questions and doubts
30:09
and experiences that leaders are having that might be uncomfortable to share
30:13
because it's not necessarily the most beautiful reflection.
30:16
The compounding value of making mistakes and learning from 'em.
30:19
And I think the sharing of those mistakes is so key to
30:24
helping a newer generation of folks go like, okay, great.
30:29
They screwed it up. I probably will screw it up.
30:31
That makes this feel a little bit more accessible to me. But to your point,
30:34
talking about what is amazing about leading a group of people and the
30:39
feelings you get when you watch people grow exponentially and even depart your
30:43
organization and go on to do other amazing things... Like, god,
30:47
is there anything better than that feeling?
30:50
Yeah, I feel so strongly about that.
30:54
And the ability to watch the people around you grow and
30:59
rise is what can make leadership so rewarding.
31:04
The leaders I am most admiring of,
31:06
understand that they are playing a long game and understand that they might not
31:10
be there at the finish line. I think it also depends on the situation.
31:15
So at that time, building a team,
31:18
I will say I did have more instant gratification than not.
31:21
But I think transitioning from that group that was
31:26
really in a quickly growing posture to the role that I'm in now,
31:30
which is more about how are you evolving together?
31:36
It's very different and the excitement is different,
31:39
the challenges are different.
31:41
And in the spirit of sharing struggles and excitement,
31:44
I think when you watch a team that then also has their own teams
31:49
that they work with and a very distinct portfolio,
31:53
to then be trying to operate between all of those teams,
31:57
it can feel more isolating than I was expecting, particularly at first.
32:02
Yeah,
32:02
I think a lot of leaders would say you ultimately end up sitting
32:07
kind of alone in those spaces. And for a lot of people,
32:11
no one ever said that. That was a surprise. In a lot of ways,
32:16
when you are part of a greater ensemble in your organization,
32:21
that community can be such an awesome experience,
32:25
but at a certain point you do give some of that up
32:30
in order to wear the crown and provide leadership in a different way.
32:35
And I think a lot of people get surprised.
32:38
And it's being responsible for the decision that
32:42
might not be everyone's favorite choice in the short term.
32:46
And there are moments where you have to reckon with
32:50
the fact that it's on you, and it's not something that is a decision by jury.
32:55
And I'm someone who loves to get input and ask advice and
33:00
dialogue on so many things,
33:03
and sometimes it's on you to make sure that you have gotten the information you
33:07
need, but then to ultimately...
33:09
You have to decide and be accountable.
33:10
...Make a choice and be accountable for it.
33:13
And I think one thing that has really struck me is this idea of are you making
33:18
bets or are you making investments?
33:21
I think that is such a succinct way of demonstrating the
33:26
fork in the road that a lot of people find themselves in in any job but
33:31
particularly in leadership roles.
33:33
Am I going to make a decision based on the
33:38
pressures of the moment that might have a short-term impact,
33:42
or am I going to make a decision that might be harder,
33:45
that might require more resources upfront,
33:48
because I am looking at the long-term trajectory of the division,
33:53
the organization, or the field?
33:56
There are a lot of bets that would be really fun to take, but when I look back,
34:00
when I am beyond this career,
34:03
I want to feel like I have made decisions that have led
34:07
the organization to be in a better place than it was than when I was in it.
34:12
And so that in 10 or 20 years,
34:16
the organization is having a greater impact because of some seeds that I was
34:21
able to plant when I was there.
34:24
It is sort of said that 10% of people
34:29
are born to lead, 20% can learn it,
34:33
and the rest of us just shouldn't do it at all.
34:37
My snap judgment about you, which I've made many, many, many years ago,
34:41
is that you were born for this. I'll tell you why.
34:45
I've always felt that when I spend time with you,
34:48
I feel very safe and I feel unique
34:52
and that you see me and connect really deeply with me.
34:57
And in my mind I'm always like, oh, that's an us thing.
35:01
And then when I was prepping for this podcast, I was like, oh,
35:05
you know what? That might be how everyone feels when they work with her.
35:10
That might be a unique thing that she does as a leader that maybe a lot of
35:15
people feel that.
35:17
That is a very kind and generous thing for you to share.
35:22
Respectfully, I'm not sure.
35:27
I expected a response like that.
35:29
I'm not sure I agree that people are born
35:34
to or can be educated to or are not
35:39
able to become leaders... for a few reasons.
35:43
One is that leadership is about context, ultimately.
35:48
I could have a leadership approach here that when I go
35:53
three blocks down the road in D.C. everyone's like, what are you doing?
35:58
So one is just the context of it. Leadership isn't a monolith.
36:01
So what do we really mean when we say someone's born to be a leader? And then,
36:06
is everyone given not just the tools or
36:10
opportunity to discover whether they might be a good leader,
36:14
but is everyone empowered and encouraged and trusted
36:18
to believe that they can be?
36:22
I think anyone who shows a willingness or an interest in learning about
36:26
leadership can become a good leader.
36:28
I think that to me is the barrier for entry.
36:32
So that was a really long-winded way of saying thank you.
36:36
And also I disagree with it.
36:40
It's very wise. I like it. We talked about this earlier.
36:44
It feels like external factors on us would say it's important for
36:49
my career to leave and go do something else.
36:53
It won't look good on paper.
36:56
Have you had to answer those questions for yourself?
36:59
Absolutely.
37:00
I would say frequently it's something that I think about.
37:05
And I think the things that have kept me here are, one,
37:11
a true belief in the center's mission and ability to deliver
37:15
on its mission,
37:18
a love of what we are growing
37:22
and building here. And that changes every few years, to be frank.
37:27
I'm not staying here now for the same reasons I was staying here seven years
37:30
ago. I think that's important.
37:32
It's a refreshed commitment and responsibility,
37:37
and I really enjoy the people that I work with here.
37:41
Even in moments of disagreement, there is kindness.
37:44
And even when we are disagreeing,
37:47
I still believe that everyone's perspective is coming from a place of
37:52
believing it is the right thing for the institution and the people it is
37:56
serving. That feels like something that I want to hold onto and keep uplifting.
38:01
And most of all,
38:02
I believe that arts are a critical part of everyone's life.
38:07
We know there is data and science that proves the importance of arts, culture,
38:12
humanities, and people's mental health and physical wellbeing,
38:16
and how wonderful to work for an organization that also
38:21
believes in that and wants to make arts available to every
38:25
person in the country and around the world.
38:28
Great.
38:30
Picture young people who have chosen to
38:35
work in the arts,
38:36
specifically the folks that are maybe not in the best
38:41
circumstances,
38:42
maybe they're in an arts organization that is struggling financially which is
38:45
not a small number these days. What do you say
38:50
to all young people,
38:51
but specifically the people who are listening this podcast who are
38:56
clinging to information that will help them stay the course?
39:00
So you can pretty quickly spin yourself out thinking,
39:04
what am I going to do next? Why isn't this person doing Y?
39:07
Why isn't that person doing X?
39:09
And how is this organization ever going to move into the future if... if... if?
39:14
But I think you need to give yourself the grace to focus on building the best
39:18
version of yourself in this space because only someone who is
39:22
cemented in their values and cemented in their ability
39:27
to be continuously learning and contributing can then really start
39:32
to move forward and make change in the space with others over time.
39:37
But if you have a belief in this field and it's feeling
39:41
hopeless, then take a minute to recenter on yourself first.
39:46
That's great advice. Okay. We've reached your CI to Eye moment.
39:51
If you could broadcast one message to executive directors, leadership teams,
39:55
staff, and boards of a thousand arts organizations,
40:00
what would it be?
40:03
I think it would be a call to action or a call to participation
40:07
for how we reinvent the business model with the focus being
40:12
that leadership's role is to be taking care of the staff of that
40:17
organization.
40:19
And I think sometimes it's easy to skip that piece and say,
40:23
leadership's role is to make sure that we are presenting the best artists on our
40:27
stages or having the most inclusive spaces in the
40:32
country on our site. That is the organization's goal.
40:36
How is leadership empowering and uplifting the staff that needs to
40:41
deliver on that mission?
40:43
And I think what the reading between the lines there is has
40:48
to do with staffing, resourcing, and compensation.
40:52
And I think that our industry was built in a way that a lot of nonprofits are,
40:57
on the hopes and dreams and beliefs of their youngest staff
41:02
carrying them through a compensation scheme that
41:07
was never meant to be on equal footing to the corporate world.
41:12
And I think we're going to see more and more over time that grace and
41:17
belief in mission, vision,
41:19
and values isn't going to overcome the need for
41:23
resources. It's not the sexiest call to action, but it's what I think we need.
41:28
I love it. I consider myself called to action. Monica Holt...
41:32
Let's do it.
41:32
Thank so much for being here.
41:34
Thank you, Christopher. Thank you CI!
41:45
Hi, Priya.
41:47
Hi, Christopher.
41:49
Welcome back to the pod.
41:51
Oh my god, thanks. It's nice to be on this side.
41:54
I can't say the standard sort of welcome to CI to Eye.
41:57
You've been here several times and kind of live here.
42:00
Yeah, I live here inside of CI to Eye.
42:03
So for people who...
42:05
I think a lot of people have had some exposure to your story,
42:09
but before we get into talking about leadership,
42:13
tell me again for the cheap seats in the back,
42:16
how did you get here to the arts?
42:18
Yeah. No,
42:20
the arts have been just such a huge part of my life from such a young age.
42:25
I grew up dancing classical South Indian dance,
42:29
and I also grew up dancing more on the Western side of things.
42:34
So ballet, tap, jazz, modern.
42:36
I was very interested in the dance world,
42:40
and that was just a big part of my intro to the arts.
42:43
And I grew up singing too.
42:45
And so I sort of moved my way into Western singing as well, as I grew up,
42:50
as I went into elementary and middle school and people around me were not
42:54
participating in South Indian classical art forms,
42:57
but they were participating in musical theater.
42:59
And so I found my way there and went to school for musical
43:04
theater, and I thought I wanted to be a star on the Broadway stage.
43:10
But halfway through college,
43:11
I sort of realized that the life of a musical theater
43:16
performer probably was not going to be satisfying for me,
43:21
so I pivoted. But I knew that I wanted to stay in the arts because
43:26
I really felt like art is a universal way to connect with people,
43:30
and I wanted to be a part of making that a bigger impact in the world.
43:36
So that's how I found my way to the administrative side and then the marketing
43:40
side of the arts. So I started my career on Broadway, but on the marketing side.
43:47
In those first years, it really did feel like I was living the dream.
43:50
I went to the Tony Awards, and I was at a Broadway opening night,
43:53
and it was just so sparkly and so exciting. Then over time,
43:58
I started to feel like, okay,
43:59
Broadway is very focused on the show that's going to make the most amount of
44:03
money,
44:03
and I came here to find stories that were important that
44:08
could have an impact on people's lives,
44:10
and I wanted to find work that could support more of that. So that's how I found
44:14
the nonprofit side, and that's actually how I found Capacity.
44:18
And I made my way in, and that was back in 2016.
44:22
And then sort of out of nowhere,
44:24
a job offer from San Diego showed up in my lap.
44:27
And I'm a big believer in signs from the universe,
44:30
and I wondered if maybe the universe was telling me I needed to try something
44:33
new.
44:34
And that was also sort of a test to see do I need the arts to be in
44:39
my career? The test failed.
44:43
I do need the arts to be in my career.
44:45
And so while I was sort of having those thoughts and wondering what I might do
44:49
with them,
44:50
Mr. Erik Gensler gave me a call and asked me to come back,
44:54
and we all took a leap of faith. And three years later, here we are.
44:58
Here we are.
44:59
I know, it's crazy. It's crazy.
45:04
When you knew that perhaps being a performer on the Broadway was not
45:09
necessarily in the cards for you,
45:12
how were you aware that there was an administrative path that you could
45:17
take?
45:18
Did someone within the university system make you aware of that?
45:22
Were you always aware that that was a choice you could make?
45:26
I definitely was not always aware, but I did go to a theater school,
45:30
so I went to Ithaca College and I was in the musical theater
45:34
track,
45:35
but I was surrounded by people who were in different theater-related tracks.
45:41
And some of them I knew about,
45:43
some of them were much more of the costume side or the prop side of things or
45:48
lighting.
45:48
Those pieces I felt closer to because those were closer physically to the stage.
45:54
But that was the first time that I really got exposed to company management,
45:58
general management, the actual business side, marketing,
46:03
development, all of those pieces. So yeah,
46:06
I think I got lucky that that exposure was all around me once I got to college.
46:11
But before that, not on my radar at all.
46:14
I'm so eager to still continue to shine so much light on this subject.
46:19
And I still think it's so important that we tell people,
46:24
young people, that this is a path you can take.
46:26
And it's an important one because it's hard for performers to stand on a stage
46:31
or for art to hang on the walls of a museum without an administrative
46:35
staff selling tickets, raising money, et cetera.
46:39
It all works together.
46:43
Listeners may or may not know, Priya is my boss,
46:46
and so as we continue to let our conversation unfold,
46:50
I just want everyone to have full perspective into our conversation.
46:55
Priya,
46:56
are you willing to let listeners have some idea of where you sit generationally?
47:01
Oh, sure. Yes. I am 33 years old,
47:04
so I sit squarely in the millennial generation. Go millennials.
47:09
Thank you for sharing that. Again,
47:11
the point of this particular episode is to really shine a very bright
47:16
light on this crop of amazing individuals who are sitting in
47:21
leadership roles in arts organizations who are not Gen X or Boomer or Silent
47:26
Generation. No shade on any of those people. I am in one of those groups.
47:31
But it's so exciting to me in my career,
47:34
which is now in its fourth decade,
47:38
it is so exciting to see new leadership styles and different ways that
47:43
people are doing things. So tell me two things.
47:46
What were the things that great leaders did that you were like, ah,
47:51
damn, when I'm in the chair, I'm going to do it like that,
47:54
or take on that component of that person. And then conversely,
47:58
what were the things that you saw that you were like, hell no,
48:02
not going to happen on my watch.
48:04
Okay, so great leaders listen.
48:07
I feel very deeply for this one because I think when
48:12
you're a brand new person to the workforce and you have a leader
48:17
who is invested in listening to the experience
48:22
that you're having and allowing their support, management,
48:26
guidance to be driven by what they're hearing from
48:31
you, it makes all the difference in the world.
48:35
I think on the flip side,
48:37
what I've watched happen that then I didn't want to do is I've watched new
48:42
managers-for the sake of perfectionism or hyper
48:47
achievement-micromanage or only accept
48:52
one approach of doing things.
48:55
And we are all human beings with all of these different component
48:58
parts inside us.
49:00
And I think replicating something in a one-to-one way when it's a
49:04
completely different person now executing the work is an
49:09
unrealistic expectation.
49:11
And to be on the receiving end can be so incredibly
49:15
demoralizing,
49:17
and I think it makes you feel like the strengths that maybe you
49:22
once had confidence in are no longer applicable.
49:26
So I think that can become a really dangerous cycle.
49:30
A hundred percent. When I listen to you talk about that,
49:33
one of the things that I immediately think of is
49:37
just-especially in the arts, which is still so predominantly white,
49:41
which is a big problem for us-part of...
49:45
I'm air quoting for people who can't see me...
49:48
Part of doing things the right way or the way it's always been done
49:52
has also meant doing things the "white way."
49:57
I know you have a lot to say about that,
49:59
and I know that I have learned a lot from you about this and still continue to
50:02
do so, but I think it's such an important topic.
50:04
Yeah,
50:05
I think the thing that's hard about this is that it doesn't
50:09
necessarily take somebody explicitly saying,
50:14
you have to present like this,
50:16
or you have to show up like this on a client call.
50:21
It doesn't take just those explicit statements for somebody
50:26
to read between the lines and pick up on what
50:31
it means to be successful in a certain place at a
50:36
certain time. And I think for me,
50:40
when I joined Capacity, and even now,
50:44
it's a predominantly white team,
50:47
and I was taking my cues from more
50:51
senior people around me, all of whom were predominantly white.
50:55
And I think it can feel alienating,
50:58
but without anybody saying "your authentic self needs to sound like that."
51:03
Without anybody saying any of that. It was things that were as simple as...
51:08
I remember super early on,
51:09
I was on a call with a client and the client mispronounced my name,
51:16
and I sort of went to correct it,
51:18
but the person leading the call just sort of moved forward with the call. So
51:22
then I was like, okay, let's move forward the call. No big deal.
51:26
And then that call was an hour long and throughout the entire call,
51:30
my name was mispronounced. Yeah, I was PRY-uh. Yeah. And
51:37
once you get past the first five minutes, it's too late. What am I going to say?
51:40
Hey, by the way, 55 minutes ago you said my name was Pry-uh,
51:44
and you've been saying it subsequently that way since,
51:47
and I now 55 minutes into the call I'm going to correct you. It's like,
51:52
oh god. So I just didn't,
51:57
but I think I also just watched the other people in the room not,
52:02
and
52:04
those types of things then become additional disruptions that we have to
52:09
work through in an office setting of any type.
52:13
And so I think that's what takes me back to this idea that
52:18
representation matters,
52:19
not just because you want to see other people who are successful,
52:23
who look like you,
52:23
but also because all of these little things that happen throughout the day
52:28
when the room is more diverse, those things become more normalized.
52:33
So then I don't have to think twice about, "Actually,
52:37
can I just interrupt you? I just want to make it clear it's pronounced Priya,
52:41
because if I don't tell you now, I can't tell you ever."
52:46
So anyway...
52:49
What would you say to say to the average 24 or
52:54
25-year-old who is sitting in their first or second more junior role
52:59
inside of an arts organization,
53:00
which is unfortunately likely very white.
53:05
What would you say to those folks who are listening to that story and they're
53:08
like, "Yep.".
53:09
I will first say that you might not wake up every day wanting to
53:14
do what I'm going to suggest that you do, and that's okay.
53:18
It feels like a great deal of responsibility to represent something not only for
53:22
yourself, but for all of those who come behind you,
53:24
and some days that just feels incredibly exhausting, and that is okay.
53:29
But what I would say in that is that I think it's easy to make a lot of
53:33
assumptions, as I did, about what the definition of success is.
53:38
And I would urge people to ask more specific questions about the
53:43
expectation and definition of success instead of solely relying
53:48
on context clues in an environment that perhaps has not historically
53:53
had people like you in it or people like you in great volumes in it.
53:58
I would venture to say that sometimes when you ask the direct
54:03
question, the answer is actually the opposite of the assumption,
54:07
but you never know until you ask. I wish I had just asked,
54:12
"Hey,
54:12
would it have been okay for me or you to interrupt the
54:17
client and let them know that that happened?".
54:22
God,
54:22
isn't asking questions just such a universal solution to so many of our
54:27
problems? You and I just had a conversation about asking questions yesterday.
54:31
Yes, we did.
54:33
This is a thing that not only can be helpful to you in the beginning of your
54:37
career, it's maybe even more important as you get further on.
54:41
And you do not have to know. In fact, often you do not know.
54:47
Yeah, a thousand percent. A thousand percent.
54:49
I'm writing that on a Post-It note for myself.
54:50
I know.
54:52
So you were on a podcast episode on CI to Eye
54:57
in 2022 when you first came back to Capacity to be
55:01
our President,
55:04
and on that episode you specifically talked about
55:09
ruinous empathy. Where are we now on the journey?
55:14
Yeah, yeah.
55:15
So ruinous empathy comes from this concept of
55:20
radical candor, which is the idea that if you care personally,
55:24
you can challenge directly.
55:27
And ruinous empathy essentially is that you care
55:31
personally and are unable to challenge directly.
55:35
You care too personally to be able to challenge directly.
55:40
So super early in my time here,
55:44
and a big part of coming into the role was managing
55:49
people who had previously essentially managed me.
55:52
I'm looking at one of them right now in the face, Mr. Christopher Williams.
55:55
And so I think as I came in early on,
55:59
I had spent a lot of time on the care personally piece,
56:02
and I wanted to do a lot of listening, especially with the leadership team,
56:06
to sort of understand the lay of the land.
56:09
Many people on our leadership team have been here for 10 years plus at
56:13
this point.
56:15
And so I really wanted to listen and understand what each
56:20
person was feeling about the now, the past,
56:24
what they're hopeful for in the future, those types of things.
56:26
But I think that I early on didn't feel like I had the right to
56:31
challenge directly. But now having spent more time in the role,
56:36
having understood the business more,
56:38
having worked alongside this team more,
56:42
we're all collectively working towards the same thing, right?
56:46
We're all just doing our part, working towards the same thing.
56:50
And when I was able to internalize that shared
56:54
goal, it became more about if the feedback's not given,
56:59
then there isn't an opportunity for us to get to that goal in the same way.
57:04
It remains a barrier.
57:07
This sort of topic generally came up with the other
57:11
two guests in the episode.
57:14
This idea that folks who make their way into
57:19
upper leadership positions earlier in their careers will
57:23
find themselves having to manage
57:28
individuals not only who are younger than they are,
57:32
but [it's] harder managing those who may have
57:37
multiple decades on them. And that's also true for you.
57:41
What would you say to folks who are listening to this about what that journey
57:46
is like and what you've learned, or what you're still learning?
57:51
One thing that I've learned is that the experience of others does not
57:56
negate the experience and expertise of myself.
58:00
I think I used to think of it that way.
58:02
I'll use you as an example because you're sitting right here. It's been,
58:06
did you say, four decades?
58:08
I'm in the fourth.
58:09
Yeah, there you go. In the workforce.
58:11
I am not in the fourth decade in the workforce,
58:15
but that doesn't mean that if I have a piece of feedback for you or if
58:19
we are collaborating,
58:21
it doesn't mean that my decades mean nothing to you,
58:26
and that my perspective means nothing to you.
58:29
And it took me a little while to internalize that,
58:32
but so long as we can still have the
58:37
level of caring personally, and the closeness,
58:41
and the ability to challenge directly and have these big picture strategic
58:45
conversations... And for me, we're all just humans at the end of the day,
58:49
working together. And age doesn't really change that.
58:53
Every stage of your life, that's all you're doing.
58:55
You're just a human being doing the best that you can,
58:58
which I think universalizes it.
59:01
Yeah,
59:02
I sort of envision right now the sort of archetype
59:08
of an arts admin,
59:10
someone who is so happy to be at their arts organization and is working really
59:14
hard because that's what we do in the arts,
59:17
and maybe they see their executive director or artistic director walking up and
59:21
down the hallway and they think to themselves, that's the job I want to do.
59:25
So as a young leader in the arts,
59:29
what have you seen or what do you see as the biggest challenge to being a young
59:33
leader in the arts? And conversely, what's a really big benefit?
59:37
Yeah. Well, I think that the challenge, I just touched on.
59:41
You cannot control how other people assign or don't assign
59:45
value to age. You just can't.
59:48
But what can be hard is to not let that knock me off
59:53
balance a little bit.
59:55
To not let the voices in my head show up and sort of say like, "Yeah,
1:00:00
you are so young. What are you doing? What are you doing in this meeting?
1:00:04
Why are you the one here doing this?" But I also think that
1:00:09
it sometimes means that we try new things and we take some
1:00:14
different risks,
1:00:15
and the perspective is informed by the future.
1:00:20
Right now,
1:00:21
I'm considered a young president,
1:00:25
but not too long from now, it's going to just all be my generation.
1:00:30
And the way of the workplace is shifting and
1:00:35
the audiences coming into arts and cultural institutions,
1:00:39
those are shifting. And in some ways I feel like I have an
1:00:44
edge because I'm here now.
1:00:46
I have the power that I have that comes with this seat and
1:00:50
I can offer a perspective that does also inform
1:00:56
where things are going to go and it might seem like we're not quite there
1:01:01
yet, or it's kind of new or it's kind of green,
1:01:03
or "you've got to learn that that's not going to work for yourself." Those are
1:01:07
the types of things that I might hear, but that's not always true.
1:01:11
And oftentimes the spaghetti does stick to the wall and we get to try something
1:01:15
new and my fresh perspective allows some of that to happen
1:01:20
and that is the benefit.
1:01:23
Shall we do a CI to Eye moment within the context of this topic?
1:01:27
Sure.
1:01:28
If you could broadcast one message to executive directors, leadership teams,
1:01:32
staff, and boards of a thousand arts organizations, what would it be?
1:01:36
It would be that the importance of listening cannot be
1:01:41
understated,
1:01:43
and I really do believe that part of why the arts
1:01:47
are so powerful is because they offer the
1:01:52
opportunity to see new, different,
1:01:55
diverse stories show up in front of us.
1:01:57
And as we listen more,
1:02:00
we build empathy and openness to what that
1:02:05
then can allow us to do and can allow future leaders to do.
1:02:09
So the power of listening cannot be understated.
1:02:12
Well said. You're an inspiration to me, Priya,
1:02:16
and I'm sure to others listening to this episode.
1:02:19
Thank you, Christopher.
1:02:20
Thanks, boss. We'll see you back at our desks.
1:02:22
Okay, sounds great.
1:02:23
Bye.
1:02:25
Bye.
1:02:33
Hello everyone, it's me, Dan here,
1:02:35
back with another round of CI-lebrity Sightings. CI...
1:02:40
'lebrity... like celebrity. I'll stop explaining it.
1:02:43
Here are some of our favorite news stories featuring CI clients in 60 seconds or
1:02:47
less. First up,
1:02:49
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra's music director Nathalie Stutzmann was featured on
1:02:52
WSBTV for making history as only the second woman to lead a
1:02:57
major American orchestra. Way to go, Nathalie! Next,
1:03:01
Ballet BC just received the largest donation in its
1:03:05
37-year history,
1:03:07
which according to Stir Magazine will go toward full-year contracts and salary
1:03:11
increases for its dancers. And finally,
1:03:15
a number of our friends in the Bay Area were mentioned in the New York
1:03:19
Times-heard of it?-in an article entitled "San Francisco's Arts
1:03:23
Institutions Are Slowly Building Back," which name drops American Conservatory
1:03:28
Theater, San Francisco Opera, San Francisco Symphony, and SF MoMA.
1:03:33
We're so proud of these clients for their landmark accomplishments and tireless
1:03:37
commitments to moving their art forms forward.
1:03:40
Got a story that deserves a shout out? Well, tag us on social and let us know.
1:03:56
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
1:03:58
This episode was edited and produced by Karen McConarty and co-written by Karen
1:04:02
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
1:04:04
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CI to Eye's designers and video editors,
1:04:09
and all work together to create CI's digital content.
1:04:12
Our music is by whoisuzo. If you enjoyed today's episode,
1:04:16
please take a moment to rate us or leave a review.
1:04:19
A nice comment goes a long way in helping other people discover CI to Eye and
1:04:23
hear from experts in the arts and beyond. If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
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pass it on to all of your enemies. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
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Until next time, stay nerdy.