Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #60 - Syntropics & Agroforestry | Scott Hall [Syntropia]

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#60 - Syntropics & Agroforestry | Scott Hall [Syntropia] · The Shed Organics Show

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Hey everybody, Welcome back to another episode of the Shared
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Organics Show for episode 60. Today we have an insane episode.
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This one, we go incredibly deep. Now for those of you who have
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been listening along for a while, you'll know that I love
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deep conversations and diving into all sorts of different ways
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of thinking about a topic. Now, our guest Scott Hall today
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comes from the world of agroforestry and syntropics.
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And these terms can be often used or interchanged to describe
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certain ways of growing or managing systems.
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But I think the way in which Scott really highlights today in
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this conversation, he highlights that it's not necessarily about
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the tools we use or the methods. It's more about the fundamental
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principles that we're guided by. And once you can unlock and see
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this blueprint, change your perspective and ultimately
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change who we are as people, we're able to see these systems
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in a new light and unlock the blueprint for being able to
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manage these systems effectively and get ourselves out of some of
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the ecological disaster zones that we seem to find ourselves
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in these modern days. Now, this was a huge learning
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conversation for me. It's one again of these
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conversations that I will remember and will sit with me
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for a long time in the way that I shape and frame my mindset
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about all of these things. So put your deep thinking caps
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on, sit back, sip a cup of tea, cruise down the highway and
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listen to the incredible Scott Hall.
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A lot of my listeners, a lot of my listeners are maybe sort of a
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wide variety of beginner gardeners all the way through to
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people that tend to nerd out down a certain direction like
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myself. I somewhat understand a little
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bit about syntropic systems, agroforestry, this type of
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thing. But if you if you had to lay out
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for somebody who's just a beginner gardener at home and
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wanting to understand this new term that seems to be becoming
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popular right now, agroforestry or syntropics, I know it's not a
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new concept, but what is this concept that if you had to
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explain it in the most basic form.
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Well, the concept is essentially look it's it's a big picture
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thing mate. Centropy is just the, the life
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force expressing quantitatively and qualitatively over time
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through just that thermodynamic process of, of the life force
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itself. It's an objective thing and it's
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all really, you know, it's part of the function of, of, of the
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universe, at least contained within planet Earth.
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You know, outside of that, everything else is subjective.
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Yeah, I, I totally understand that.
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And, but I feel like just digging into that a little bit
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in terms of the objective nature of what you're doing, because I
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heard you speak about things like permaculture and, and all
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of these new, well, researching styles of gardening and looking
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after land and managing our, our ecosystems.
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They tend to be, as you say, maybe more subjective
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approaches. And there's a lot of different
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ways you can do it. There's like a spectrum of
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different approaches in terms of how to do it.
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And when you're talking more specifically about things like
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agroforestry, there's, there's almost like a way of doing it.
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There's not like, OK, you could do this and you could do that
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and you could do this, but there's a little bit more
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structure to it. Is that right?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the the reason is, is
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because the process of synthropy, let's call it, you
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know, let's just look at it from that thermodynamic physics point
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of view, has a certain structure within its characteristics.
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Photosynthesis is a combination of light, photons, carbon
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dioxide, going through the process of, you know, through a
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plant, being metabolized through a plant and then turned into
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mass. Yeah.
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That's just the the physics of it, and these are unchangeable.
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This is a process that is the function of the universe itself.
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Exactly, Yeah. So we need to understand,
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observe and regard those things. We can't change them and we can
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apply principles to the way they express and then use those
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principles in the way we apply ourselves in the process.
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So there are things that are not negotiable that we have to work
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with, you know, such as day and night and things all according
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to these these these universe universal processes.
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So that is what is a sort of a hard non negotiable in it.
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So our choices are limited to to that.
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So in saying that we can apply those principles in any way we
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like. The methods are infinite.
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Yeah, OK. As long as the principles are
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applied correctly. Because principles and methods
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are two different things. I think there's a really good
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quote out there that says principles of few a few, but
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methods are many. So yes, apply your methods the
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way you do. Apply the principle in any
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method you like. It's just like an being an
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artist and having a palette of colour.
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The colours rely on the same principles.
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Colour is exactly the same. As you know.
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The way the spectrum works is is very very similar to the way
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photosynthesis and synthropy works.
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These are principles. Colours work on principles, and
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so therefore we can apply those principles of colour in any way
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we like when we apply them to the canvas.
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Yeah. You see, it's just that that's
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the relationship. That makes a lot of sense, yeah.
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And it's, it's based a lot on observation, right.
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So we're, we're having a look at the blueprint of life
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essentially, and working with it.
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You're not trying to swim upstream against anything
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because then you're creating more work for yourself.
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And it isn't in this, you know, nice symbiotic relationship,
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right? So does this sort of change
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obviously you know, everyone around the world, different
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climates, different soil conditions, different plants
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that we're trying to grow, each ecosystem in itself is operating
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in a certain way, again following different principles
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like you, like you said. So is that do do the principles
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change depending on the situation in terms of location
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trying to grow these types of things or a lot of those I
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presume will carry on through and be the same throughout
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nature throughout everywhere like for example, the central
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pillar of diversity trying to diversify these types of things.
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It does that change based on the situation or is it more the
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methods that are changing across different places?
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Well, principles are constant. Yes, OK.
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They don't change, right? They express differently.
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OK. They they, they come through in
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different patterns, right? But the principles are constant.
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OK, can you give me an example then of a principle that is the
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same in 2 completely starkly different environments, say like
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a rainforest to a, you know, just grassland, something like
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this. You know, you can use your own
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examples, but what's the difference of a principle?
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What's the the differences that you might find between the two
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in the way that you might operate that those principles,
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if that makes sense or use those methods?
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So let's just step back, OK, So you're asking me what
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principles, how they can be similar in two different,
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extremely different climates, how they and then how those we
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would work with them differently due to the fact that they
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expressed differently because they're from two different, very
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different biomes. Exactly right.
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Yes, if you've got a. Yes, if you've got a.
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A nice easy example that comes to mind.
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It's totally, exactly, very, very simple, right?
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OK, let's go. Both different volumes go
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through species succession. True.
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That's the principle. It's a constant.
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It doesn't matter whereabouts in the world you are, species
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succession happens. Yes.
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So let's just for that, let's just sort of familiarize
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ourselves with that and just get acquainted with that.
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So it's permanent in in the way we all see this.
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And let's understand it very simply because it is simple.
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So, OK, we're working with an ecosystem.
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An ecosystem's everywhere, right?
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Unless we successfully nuke it or something.
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But so we have an ecosystem we can contemplate, observe or or
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sit with the fact that an ecosystem exists.
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We can conceive an ecosystem, we can observe an ecosystem, but
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that's a static. So far, conceptually, we've come
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to the point where we've, we can, we can regard an ecosystem,
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but we're still static. We have to, we have to add then
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the factor of time, Yes, make it applied into life, into real
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world stuff. Time exists, at least for us.
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So once you add the factor of time to an ecosystem, then the
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result is species succession because it's a time
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relationship. Yeah, OK.
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So an ecosystem doesn't sit there in statically.
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No. It will start to move through
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time and as soon as you add time you get species succession.
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Yeah, it's an overarching principle.
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It doesn't change just because it gets colder somewhere else
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and warmer somewhere else. I see what?
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Does not change. Yeah, that well, well, that
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definitely makes sense because you are you've got different
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time scales at the way these plants or ecosystems are moving
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from that succession. Like it might be faster in a
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warmer climate towards a certain result or like like you said,
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expressed differently. Or if it's really barren, lots
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of rock. These desert, deserted areas are
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going to take a long, long time to get that first stages of
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succession, you know, I presume that type of thing.
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That's quite often the case. Yeah.
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So how the how the methods change.
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Let's have a look at that now. So we've understood the
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principles are constant. Now let's look at method
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methods. Well, the first way, first thing
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we're going to do is probably change the way we apply our
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tools. You know, tools are things like
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fossil fuels, money, animals, the presence, the way we manage
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the presence of animals. Another tool is fire.
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We don't normally use it, but it is a tool, it is an option
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there. And you know, we have these
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different options in order to to use, to apply to our situation.
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So we can, we can use perhaps in an area where there's a tropical
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or subtropical situation where you've got a lot of abundant
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grass growth, you can use that grass as as and organise the
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grass into lines to start preparing the ground for what
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would be your rows later. Whereas in perhaps a very arid
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climate, you don't have that grass.
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Yeah, OK. So we have to start working with
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an infestation of really Hardy tap wooded shrubs and then
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create the covering over the earth and generate our biomass
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that way and get a littered understory to start life from
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bare earth into into the process and the positive feedback loop
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of species succession. So that's how the methods can
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vary depending on where you are, while it's working with exactly
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the same principles. Yeah, perfect.
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Because essentially we're harnessing succession and if we
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know where it's going to be ending up, it's very easy to
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reverse engineer the system to try and, you know, help it
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along, I suppose, in that direction, right?
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So rather than waiting for time to do it itself, which it
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inevitably would in this method, we're kind of speeding up that
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process, right? And strategically placing things
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in species, allowing them to drop out, to build the biomass,
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to build the life in the soil, to transition it into a place
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that we can then productively manage.
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We can, you know, reap the benefits of food crops and these
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types of things. Is that the that the idea?
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Yeah, it's managed. So it's species succession,
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which is a natural function. It's a natural process.
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It's part of Earth, the very nature of Mother Earth herself.
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So what we've done is the principles are, as you know,
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what Ernst Gosch has done is, is extremely brilliant.
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He's broken down the function of this ecosystem into a set of
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principles that we can then apply.
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And so he's given us the cheat code to this actual natural
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process. And then from that we can then
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observe different functions through time and then find out
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that we don't have to let, like for example, senescence take 80
15:06
years. We can get senescence done
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within 30 days. We can just proceed and move out
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of senescence and straight into the new wave of growth.
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So we work in cycles that meet against cycles.
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So it's, it's expressions of, of, of, of, of strong, forceful
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expressions of life that occur in nature.
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But we don't, we don't leave the gaps there any longer, right.
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So it's from one very forceful expression of life feeding
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straight into the next forceful expression of life.
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We can turn 30 years into four years.
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Yeah, You know, because of we've got the information there and we
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see it and we can identify the different phases within those
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processes within those cycles and manage them.
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So we know what we're doing. We know what we're looking at.
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We know how what's going to happen because we've been
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informed of the the principles through this.
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Essentially it's a cheat code. Yeah.
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And this then takes away the need for all this excess labor
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and inputs and all of this that a lot of us are heavily relied
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on. And I presume from, you know,
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the work that you do, you would have seen a lot of systems that,
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you know, maybe the intention was right to begin with to try
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and move it to a certain point. But there's been some errors
16:29
made that mean that there's more labour involved, more cost
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involved than there needs to be. Sure, yeah.
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But that's just part of our learning curve.
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It is, yeah. As long as we're willing to
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accept that. Yeah.
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And say, this is how I can improve.
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This is how I can learn from what I saw.
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We can always improve. There's nothing wrong with doing
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that. The only thing wrong with doing
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that is saying there, it didn't work.
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I told you. Yeah.
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You've just bought into your failure and so if we, but if we
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can feedback off those mistakes and go shit, OK, I see what's
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going on. There's too much grass coming
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in. My mistake is I didn't have
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enough density of the right species in the successional
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group, for example, and go OK, next time or next time I adjust
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it, I don't have to go in there and I've got 2 choices.
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I can say right Syntropy is now me going in and wedding the crap
17:24
out of all of those grasses. Or my canopy isn't dense enough.
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I don't have enough photosynthesis, which would
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create a shaded understory and then absorb all of the energy
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into the species I chose, and then that'll feedback into a
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strong successional pulse. Right.
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Right, so you've got 2 choices. Centropy is wedding now.
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Centropy doesn't work. Look at me, I'm so busy and now
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I can't go home and watch TV. Or Centropy is OK.
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The the understanding, the observation of the expression of
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light and energy and mass just went to the wrong plants.
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And because I didn't have my planting set up the right way,
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so I can now learn back from that and improve and I can
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improve as my system improves together in a coupled.
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So you can fail downwards or fail upwards.
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I like that. Up to the individual.
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And that's you're almost using the system using these
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principles to solve the problem rather than you being the
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problem solver by going in and doing the wedding.
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So you're like you said, maybe boosting up your canopy so that
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that understory is a little bit better of an environment for
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what we need to happen to happen.
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For myself, I use like in in the home garden and things to to
18:54
improve my soil. I use multi species cover crops
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and I've actually been transforming a section of my
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front lawn here into somewhat of a thriving garden.
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Now, I'm not going to label it anything because it's certainly
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not, you know, in alignment with any particular thing.
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I'm just trying to go through this process of turning lawn
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into something that is more of a system that works within itself,
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right. And I've been trying to
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demonstrate a little bit about succession techniques for the,
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the, the more basic, I guess, point of view.
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And one of those things with the the cover crops obviously is to
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have certain things where I've got like it's, it's ground cover
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initially because on a patch of lawn, when, you know, put all
19:46
the cardboard down and I've layered lots of lots of mulch
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and things over the top to build the organic mass.
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But putting cover crops into the ground, obviously not only does
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it help the soil, it's then shading the soil, it's then
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providing these slightly different layers in terms of
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canopy. And then I can, you know, I've
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been bringing in things that I will grow up nice and tall and
20:08
fast, something like a sun hemp, for example, that's then shading
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out a lot of these lower plants, allowing me to grow some of
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these things underneath. And.
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Working through that process towards productive main canopies
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and then all of my sort of little shrubs and medicinal
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plants or whatever else underneath and around that.
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And then I can manage that system because it's a small
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enough area for me to be able to manage and and I enjoy some of
20:34
that management. But there are, I presume, ways
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in which I can do it on a small scale and bring this sort of
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larger ecosystem down onto a smaller scale.
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Is there a point in in which we're limited by size or scale?
20:54
Yeah. So the smallest the smallest
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scale you can get down to is the the area of 1, basically one
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tree. Wow, Cool.
21:07
Amazing. So because it goes through
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species succession, you're going to move up into bigger plants.
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Yeah, one tree. It's we, we call that a nest.
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We, if we want to do a, a, a piece of agroforestry on the
21:23
smallest possible scale, it will be called.
21:27
We will call that a nest because it's the, the consortium of
21:30
plants that all centre around essentially in the end, one
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tree. And here's the thing, if you go
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into scale, all it is a is it's a sequence of nests that run in
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a line. It doesn't change.
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It's just the smallest possible unit that you can take out of a
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large agroforestry system or a forest and manage independently.
21:51
That's all it is. It's just modular.
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You're right. And I've, I've seen that play
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out in the way that certain patterns across landscapes work.
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So like, for example, in the way that we have, you know, a, a
22:07
river system that then splits out and goes all the way out
22:11
into streams and continues to fork off into these sort of
22:14
vessels, you might say, like, and, and the way that the land
22:19
is shaped and there's certain valleys and mountains and things
22:22
that carry water. And the way that the forests
22:25
will, you know, move the water progressively from the coast up
22:30
over forests and then have this nice cyclical nature of bringing
22:33
the water cycle around. You see these patterns in small
22:37
ways. And then as you say that sort
22:39
of, you know, as you zoom out, it kind of duplicates and that's
22:43
how the landscape seems to map out.
22:45
If we haven't, you know, gone and as you say, nuke death or
22:49
done anything. So on a smaller scale then when
22:55
we're doing things like this and we're we're working with
22:58
succession, I've heard or I understand the concept of
23:02
succession to be this oscillation almost between sort
23:07
of A-22 extremes or along a spectrum over a great vast
23:12
amount of time. So a desert might turn to a
23:15
dense forest that then might recede back to a grassland or
23:19
something in this in this way. Do you a, do you think that's
23:25
correct? Do you relate to that?
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And what is it that dictates which way it's going or how long
23:35
or why it's going to be going backwards and forth between
23:38
these two things? And is that correct in thinking
23:40
it's an oscillation? Forward to oscillate, we have to
23:49
have some sort of influence which makes it oscillated
23:54
because species succession will go providing everything else is
24:01
equal. The climate doesn't change, the
24:04
rainfall remains relatively consistent over 100 year period.
24:08
Yeah, So 100 year average is consistent.
24:10
It'll change within 10 to five years.
24:12
You might get droughts and floods, Yeah, average at over
24:15
100 years. If if all of these are
24:18
consistent species succession will won't won't necessarily
24:25
oscillate. It'll only go through its
24:27
disturbance and recovery cycles. But every on every cycle, it
24:31
will move upwards. Yeah, to a higher quality of
24:35
life. It's like a set of steps.
24:37
And each step is a cycle which involves disturbance and
24:42
recovery. Right.
24:45
Because I've heard like for example, when I first heard the
24:49
concept of succession, I thought, OK, so we're working
24:53
towards an end goal. And is that end goal the same
24:57
consistent end goal of every part of succession that we see
25:01
expressed? And I understand that as no,
25:04
that's not the case. It's not, you know, the world
25:07
doesn't want to just be one big forest, for example, like it's
25:10
not all moving towards that end goal.
25:13
So there are varying end goals and I'm sort of thinking, I'm
25:17
trying to understand and maybe the the idea of oscillating
25:20
between 2 is, is too simple. Maybe it's just it's working
25:25
based on, as you say, influence. So if there is a really big
25:29
drought in a certain area, it's going to influence the type of
25:33
species that are going to be needed for that situation or
25:36
they're going to thrive better. And then that dictates the
25:39
succession towards whatever the next step may be.
25:42
Does that? Is that a slightly better way of
25:45
thinking about it? Well, your end goal, see
25:47
there's, I think what we're seeing there is in the question
25:50
is with sort of a bit of a, it's combined as a subjective and
25:56
there's a subjective and the objective matters are combined.
25:59
So it's which best to separate them.
26:02
And so our end goal is personal. Right.
26:06
Yeah, I see what you mean. It's humans that have the goal.
26:09
Nature doesn't have a goal. Nature is just itself and
26:12
expresses objective. Yeah.
26:14
So we really need to separate those two things.
26:18
Definitely, Yeah, Important. And then how we manage and what
26:21
decisions we make are influenced by our goals, what we our end
26:26
and and objective is. And then we work in management
26:30
with the objective natural system that's in with us to then
26:34
try to get those goals. So they're two different things.
26:37
We need to separate them. I see what you mean.
26:40
OK, so then yeah, putting a subjective goal on to nature is
26:48
is not the right way of looking at it because it's we're
26:50
humanizing something that shouldn't necessarily.
26:52
Well, it's OK. No, you need to do that.
26:54
Right, but. She herself is not related to
26:58
what you want. Yes, right.
27:00
You can influence it up to a point because that's exactly
27:03
what we do. Managing an ecosystem is exactly
27:07
what we're doing. We're steering nature to some
27:09
extent into the what we personally want as our goal.
27:13
But she will do whatever she will do.
27:16
If we walk away, she doesn't have a goal except for the.
27:20
The only goal she has is to is to increase complexity.
27:23
Yes. That's just the natural process
27:26
of species succession. So, you know, that's, that's,
27:30
that's the separate too. So we have to align somehow with
27:34
ourselves and with nature because that's the limits of
27:38
what we can work with. Plus, it's also the the the
27:45
basis of our creativity. OK, that makes a lot of sense.
27:49
Yeah, the. The the, the, the principles are
27:51
like the colours on a palette. Yeah, we can express ourselves
27:55
through that. I like that.
27:58
And it is, yeah. It's.
27:59
We are creative beings by nature, I feel.
28:02
And having having to, I mean, you don't necessarily see a
28:08
whole bunch of animals painting or doing a creative work, but we
28:14
as human beings have this creative urge or, you know, just
28:18
desire to be creative. And I think that that's where we
28:22
can make a big difference in terms of like it, it, it seems
28:27
really easy and it seems really common sense to just look at the
28:32
blueprint of how nature works and then copy that because it is
28:36
exactly, it's the perfect blueprint.
28:39
But we're, we're trying to, especially in, you know, you
28:44
know, chemical agriculture, this type of thing where we're
28:47
monocropping and we're doing all of the things that is totally
28:50
opposite to what we're seeing. Like it's as if we've just,
28:53
we're playing God in a way that is just not right.
28:59
What let's let's bring it back in terms of like stuff that
29:03
you've seen because you've been doing this a fair while across
29:06
different, like different, I guess, jobs and different roles
29:13
and understandings as you've moved towards this work.
29:17
Hey, guys, really quickly jumping in.
29:18
I just want to remind you, if you are not subscribed to this
29:21
show, then it's the number one thing that you can do to show me
29:24
your support. So if you're finding value from
29:27
this conversation and you're deeply engaged, I would love you
29:30
to hit the follow or subscribe button.
29:32
All right, back to the show. So what is it that a lot of
29:35
people make mistakes with? And again, this is, I'm aware,
29:42
touching on the subjective because it depends on what each
29:47
person wants and where we're trying to go.
29:48
But what are some of the things that we're overlooking that
29:53
could be a really simple concept to understand when we're trying
29:58
to build these systems for ourselves?
30:00
That's an excellent question, right?
30:02
So it's essentially we face a cultural problem, right?
30:08
So we come from a culture where we have essentially we are not
30:19
limited by nature. We don't have limits of natural
30:27
limits imposed on us any longer. The only limits we have in our
30:32
culture are economic. Yeah, right.
30:35
So that is a completely, it creates a completely different
30:41
type of human being. And what we have to do is in
30:45
order to be able to then, so if we've got nothing but economic
30:50
limits, we don't have any natural limits.
30:55
Like we don't have to really worry about a yam harvest
31:00
failing, walking, you know, over to the country to find yams and
31:05
that year they failed. And then, you know, we lose 10%
31:09
of our population of our tribe. We don't have those in positions
31:14
anymore. What we have is, of course,
31:17
their economic limits. How much shit can we buy?
31:20
How much shit can we afford? All right down to the point,
31:23
where can I afford a home? Can I afford to pay rent?
31:27
We're limited economically versus ecologically, let's say.
31:32
So when again that that creates a completely different type of
31:36
human being. And so therefore we we got this
31:41
type of specimen of human and then we then go into a situation
31:46
where we're working with an ecosystem with ecological
31:49
limits. Right.
31:51
The principles of centropy. Yeah.
31:54
Are ecological limits. We have the approach, I will say
32:01
it, of our spoiled brat. When we start to work with
32:05
nature, we haven't been accustomed to limits on what we
32:13
can do. We have this like because
32:16
normally we can throw money at something, make it happen, make
32:21
it happen, go and get this, go and get that, Go and get that.
32:24
Because usually we can buy and purchase our results that we
32:30
want. But you can't when you start
32:33
working with Centropy. You can go Fox Entropy.
32:36
I'm just going to go and get an excavator and go and buy, you
32:39
know, to get a whole truck and dog full of compost and just
32:43
drill it all full of compost and get all of these suckers out
32:46
here with wheelbarrows and wood chip mulch and shovels and mulch
32:50
the shit out of it and plant it and screw you.
32:52
I've done it. But all you've done is thrown
32:55
money at it. Yeah.
32:56
So if you really want it to work, we have to change the way
33:00
we are as a human. It's a it's a we have to change.
33:03
We have to assess who we are culturally, question that part
33:07
of who we are culturally, and then try to transform into a
33:11
being who can work and understand natural limits and
33:15
you and and understand there's a bigger, higher force.
33:18
Be humble to it, reverse the equation and don't say I'm God,
33:23
I'm going to throw money at it and change it because I haven't
33:25
got freaking time to fuck around for too long and then go, you
33:28
know, I've got to get home or I'm going to fly back to
33:30
Melbourne or something stupid like that.
33:34
Don't marry. So at some point we, we, we will
33:38
try to do a conversion over to become the different human and
33:43
it's consciousness thing. And of course this is understood
33:46
theoretically, yes, it's very easy to understand and nearly
33:49
everybody will agree with me. But to do it is a transformation
33:53
of experience because it's a lot of it is unconscious because we
33:59
are that human that comes from the other type of economic
34:02
limits, not natural limits. And we have to be reprogrammed
34:06
through experience in order to be that.
34:10
And it's a really good transformation and we do get
34:14
there. We do go through it, but we need
34:16
to learn very hard lessons first, which is shit I didn't
34:19
get what I want, Shit I didn't get what I want, Shit I didn't
34:22
get what I want. We're going in as a spoiled brat
34:26
to used to getting everything we want.
34:28
Suddenly we get chewed up and spat out and we can take again.
34:33
This goes back to an earlier question you asked me, which is,
34:36
you know, like, are we, are we humble enough?
34:40
You know, like, are we going to respond in a way where we choose
34:44
to fail upwards or choose to fail downwards and so we can get
34:49
right. OK, I accept this.
34:52
I don't know the answer yet, but I accept what has happened.
34:57
It's the first step to being able to adapt.
35:01
And then if you sit with it and understand that that has
35:03
happened, don't try to rush to an answer immediately to get the
35:08
next fix, to get a fix, to get a fix.
35:09
Come on, we've got to get a fix. Listen to what is being spoken
35:14
to you by the landscape. Read it, start to understand
35:19
it's talking to you. And don't rush to an answer.
35:22
Like I said, don't rush to an answer.
35:24
It's how these, you know, this instant gratification impulses
35:28
really need to be managed. And then after time, it will
35:32
start. We'll start to see the code and
35:34
the pattern. Yeah.
35:36
And then we'll go, OK, I've got something I can see in front of
35:40
me that I can work with. Again, to go back to the artist
35:43
analogy, it's like we start to see the clay, the media, the
35:50
medium is in our hands to work with.
35:53
Perhaps we're still developing our technique on how to work
35:56
with the medium, but we're starting to identify the medium.
36:00
And then after time, we go through that process and then we
36:03
can adapt to be able to work in with this force that's stronger
36:08
than us, it's higher than us, it's completely detached from
36:14
our expectations. But simultaneously, we are
36:19
actually a part of it. And reconnecting is the process
36:24
of failure, getting your expectations destroyed, becoming
36:29
humbled, and then starting to open up and listen and become a,
36:34
A, not a God and not trying to dominate it, not trying to
36:38
change it. I've got to, we want this.
36:39
We want agroforestry, we want trees.
36:42
We've got to have emergence. We've got to have medium strata.
36:44
We've got to have citrus. We've got to have the mangoes
36:46
and bananas. We've got to have a, have a
36:48
obtainer yield. We've got to have, you know, all
36:51
of this shit. Yeah.
36:56
Soon after time, once you go through a process of
36:59
transformation, you'll understand that language in a
37:01
different way. Yeah.
37:03
You'll understand you've, you're dealing with something that's
37:05
always want to try and to give you something, but it's going to
37:08
give you something in its way on its terms.
37:13
So that's, that's really the, that's the, that's the big deal
37:16
with it. That's how, that's if we can
37:18
move through that. Yeah.
37:21
If we can get knocked down, get back up, knocked down, get back
37:25
up and start to say, OK, yeah, I'm adapting to this.
37:28
And I can feel this. And it starts to become a
37:30
cyclical thing. We actually start to become a
37:32
completely different type of human being, the one we're
37:36
supposed to be. And we're humbled before
37:39
something. We're humbled before the force
37:43
of life. We're finally humbled down.
37:46
And then working with its cycles and rhythms rather than going,
37:50
look, I've got to get back to Melbourne, fucking hurry up, you
37:53
know, and you know, whatever it is, you know, I've got to, you
37:56
know, you know, the, the kids have got to get picked up from
37:58
school. It's there's a, there's a
38:01
tension between those two types of consciousness, definitely.
38:05
And we need to sort of at some way reconcile both of them.
38:09
We can, it's possible to do, but we are not good at being humble
38:14
before something. Yeah.
38:16
Because we are the only thing we are humbled before is currency
38:22
and economic goals because that's you know, it's not, you
38:24
know, and all will use you know, I completely empathize with the
38:28
situation. We've got no other choice.
38:30
We are nothing but that because we have come from nothing but
38:34
that. It's like getting a battery hen
38:39
out of a cage and saying, come on, you're free dudes.
38:42
They're in freaking scratch around and pick guys go and they
38:46
don't, they sit there. They don't know what to do.
38:48
They can't even walk. Yeah, but they will be able to
38:52
eventually once they adapt to that new reality.
38:55
So that's that's and that's the, that's the, that's the really
38:58
interesting inflection point. We are in a civilizational
39:02
viewpoint because, you know, the entropic way of burning fossil
39:06
fuels to live, which gives us an economic we're we're a petroleum
39:10
human. That's exactly who we are.
39:13
And petroleum and surplus energy expresses through economy, which
39:17
manifests in currency and finance.
39:20
That's our who we are. And this is an epoch shift.
39:24
You know, at some point we do know it's, it's tapping out,
39:26
we're running out, it's coming apart.
39:30
It's, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the yields aren't
39:34
there anymore. And and and we are coming to
39:37
this point of reckoning and it's a really, really important time
39:42
for us to learn that I believe. And and it's it's come, it
39:46
couldn't have come at a better time to be able to give, be
39:49
given these principles by and squashed.
39:51
Yeah, that's, that's a really brilliant way in which you put
39:55
it. And what I'm, what I'm hearing
39:57
is it's a fundamental perspective shift that's needed
40:00
culturally and. Like I've heard this term in,
40:05
you know, in philosophy and things and they, they're talking
40:08
about the sort of the death of God in a way that's like, as you
40:13
mentioned this, as we as a society moved away from the, the
40:19
belief or the thinking that there is a greater power and
40:23
that to be humble to that, as you say.
40:26
And I feel like, you know, this is a common thread that runs
40:29
through religions as to why it works so well for us as a
40:32
species is to have this higher power that people are you, you
40:38
know, underneath, I guess, or subjective to maybe, or maybe
40:42
that's not the right word. But the way you've put it there
40:46
in terms of having this viewpoint of may, you know, it,
40:54
it just is, it is what it is. It just is and and not coming
40:58
from a as I love the way you just say I've got to get back to
41:03
Melbourne and all this. It's like because that's such a,
41:06
a real shift, even in myself personally, like I can feel the
41:09
drawer of going. It's this ego.
41:12
It kind of I want this and this is my garden and it's my this
41:17
and it's, you know, my project. I even said it like that to you
41:20
before when it's not like it's not really my project.
41:23
I can use those terms, but it's being able to discern the
41:28
difference between the two of it being like understanding that,
41:31
yes, you know, OK, it is my project, it is my garden, but
41:34
also it's not and it's not my, my wishes are not going to
41:39
become the the command that it goes by.
41:44
You talk a lot about learning these things or going through
41:51
this experientially and you mentioned how important it is.
41:54
I think you you posted a video recently about how it's
41:58
important to do this in person and to, to have these
42:00
experiences and to basically get more access to be able to learn
42:08
these things. So in your view, if you're
42:12
thinking forwards, what are some of the things that we can do
42:15
people like myself that are starting to learn this and
42:17
understand this? How can we build, connect,
42:25
facilitate these places and areas in which we can start to
42:30
learn properly what to do and to help people get more of this
42:34
perspective shift? Yeah, that's a really good
42:38
question. I won't be able to give you a
42:41
conclusive answer, but I'll. Probably add.
42:44
To to, because, you know, we're talking about if you're asking
42:50
to move towards what I outlined before, this is a trans.
42:54
It's a transformation, and transformation is personal.
42:59
But what 1 can do is facilitate the experience.
43:04
Now, in order to facilitate the experience, the most powerful
43:11
way to and realistic and meaningful way to do to, to, to,
43:15
to, to go through the transformation is to be forced.
43:19
Yeah. We have no choice because then
43:23
you are genuinely being transformed.
43:25
Yeah. Everything back from that
43:29
extreme is, you know, going to be some sort of contrivance
43:35
where you haven't really, you know, been forced to do it.
43:41
You were regarding it more so because you can fly back to
43:47
Melbourne. So.
43:50
So I think, you know, we do need to do it.
43:52
We do need to. We can't just say everyone get
43:55
out there and you got you're gonna cut off all your money
43:58
until you can sort that shit out.
43:59
And when you finally realize that, you realize you don't
44:02
really need the things you thought you needed, blah, blah,
44:04
blah. Yeah, it is a consciousness
44:06
thing. But at, at the end of the day,
44:09
you know, it won't happen until, yeah, we push ourselves into at
44:14
least the cusp of it so we can look into the press down into
44:17
the precipice and see it and say, holy shit, OK, that's for
44:22
real shit. And, and instead of regarding it
44:25
conceptually and intellectually, yeah, yeah, we got to transform,
44:28
blah, blah, blah. I'll have another coffee.
44:30
Give me another latte. I got to get the bus.
44:33
You know, that sort of shit, It's what it ends up becoming.
44:36
You know, what we do is we always get those really sacred
44:39
things and just piss them all down and water them down into
44:43
nothing and abuse them and mock them as they're regarded within
44:51
this economic reality we live in.
44:54
Everything is turned into absolute horseshit.
44:57
It's abused that everything, everything sacred is, is turned
45:00
into some some something awful. It's terrible.
45:03
But in order to facilitate that, I think we do need to work
45:08
towards some type of hosted experience, to be true, to be
45:19
honest. And, and this is what I say, I'm
45:21
at this point of frustration because I want to give everyone
45:24
a experience. I want to say, OK, come with me,
45:26
have a look, be with me for two weeks.
45:30
I'm not going to give you a itinerary of what's going to
45:32
happen, man. I'm just going to give you an
45:36
immersive experience of it. And through that, you'll get an
45:43
insight. You will get to look into the
45:46
down, off the precipice, and into that truth.
45:50
You won't be transformed, but you will taste it.
45:55
And then you will know what to seek if you choose to take that
45:59
path. But you will get the smell and
46:03
feel of it. That air will fill your lungs.
46:08
Then you will. It'll change how you make
46:10
decisions in your life. But just having that taste is
46:15
enough to start. But the problem is we've got a
46:18
housing crisis in Australia. No one can live fucking
46:21
anywhere. And it, you know, it's a really
46:23
difficult thing and I'd love to say like, come to my farm for
46:27
two weeks and just live this truth.
46:31
Come along and, and work in with it.
46:34
And when we're there again for a day, two or three, maybe there's
46:38
now nothing to do. But that's OK.
46:42
Stick with that. Now go to the river and look.
46:49
Walk around. Don't even have any expectations
46:52
of what you want to get. You get out of being at the
46:54
river. You might just see a platypus or
46:58
a tortoise, you know, who cares? That is just a complete release
47:04
from the reality we're normally immersed in.
47:07
And so it's it it. And once you start to get
47:10
adjusted to that type of consciousness, you are again
47:14
going into another place that we are who who we use normally, who
47:18
we've evolved to be true homo sapiens.
47:21
And then that will give us again, that patience.
47:25
Two or three days of sitting down on the farm and doing
47:28
nothing. You would not be you.
47:31
You would not believe the amount of people that go batshit mental
47:34
when that starts happening. It's crazy, isn't it?
47:38
Because we're supposed to be a human being, and all our job is
47:40
to do is to be. Yet you come along, right?
47:44
Let's just say you've got a dude.
47:46
Hey mate, come to the farm for two weeks.
47:49
We're going to just sit with the experience.
47:50
There's no schedule or agenda. It's just work.
47:53
Working with the cycles, in situ, in the real time, in the
47:56
present. Come along.
47:58
Yay, great, I get to do this. Yay.
48:00
Cruise down, fly down, fly in from Germany or somewhere, who
48:04
knows. Come from Melbourne, come along.
48:07
And what is it with these elbows?
48:09
I'm giving them a hard time today anyway.
48:12
Come along. And then day two or three,
48:14
What's, what are we doing today? Nothing.
48:16
Nothing to do. Day 2, What are we doing today?
48:20
Nothing. Nothing to do.
48:22
We have to do something like come all the way from Melbourne
48:24
to be here for two weeks and then we'll be doing nothing, you
48:28
see? Get the irony there?
48:30
Can you see that? It's just like, yeah, dude, this
48:32
you are now in the reality of the truth of this experience.
48:36
We're not really sort of, we've got to wait for parts or we've
48:38
got to, we, you know, we've got to sort of, you know, it's a bit
48:40
too early to start taking bunches off these bananas,
48:43
whatever, you know, we, we might have to do this or do that.
48:47
And, you know, we walk around and look, we'll go down the
48:49
river and have a swim, man. But there's no bloody agenda.
48:52
That is exactly what I'm talking about.
48:53
So what I'd like to do is I'd we need everybody.
48:58
We need as many people as we can to get us through the hole that
49:01
we're looking, that we're going into and working towards.
49:05
We're working towards, we're going into a trap and that trap
49:12
is fast approaching. We've got what we need to get
49:16
through the trap, but we haven't shared it widely enough in a
49:19
truthful way where we can create the sort of strength of
49:23
character that can address it. We can have theoretical
49:26
approaches. Yeah, if we do this,
49:27
permaculture and centropy, we'll be right.
49:29
We'll be able to get through the other side.
49:31
But where are where is the fabric?
49:33
Where is that substance? Where is a human substance that
49:36
can do it? The people with that wherewithal
49:38
that don't rattle. And you have to have the
49:41
experience to be able to not rattle.
49:44
Sure. People only do what they have to
49:46
do when they have to do it. So you'll go through and people
49:49
will be forced into change and there will be people that come
49:52
through on the other side and thrive.
49:55
But that won't be that many people.
49:57
A lot of people come apart. A lot of people psychologically
50:00
rattle. This is what happens.
50:01
I've seen it happen a lot. It's pretty interesting, but I'd
50:08
like to to, to, to, to run forward of that and say instead
50:11
of, instead of front run that situation instead of getting us
50:15
thrown in the deep end straight away.
50:16
People only do what they have to do when they have to do it.
50:19
Say, OK, here's a taste, here's the truth.
50:23
Yeah, it's only a small example of it.
50:26
So because we've got a terrible housing crisis in Australia and
50:29
I can't facilitate it. I want to, but I can't.
50:33
So I'm thinking about taking it up in Sri Lanka.
50:35
Cool, because I can do it there. I'm experienced in Sri Lanka and
50:43
in Sri Lanka in the villages in the rural areas.
50:45
I work in Sri Lanka. That truth exists.
50:50
People know what it's like to starve.
50:53
They know what famine is and I can facilitate.
50:58
I'm, I'm, I'm well acquainted in the area with, with those
51:01
villages and farmers and, and I, as a matter of fact, I'm
51:06
probably more aligned with those people that I am most people now
51:09
because of the personal transformations I've been
51:12
through. And I want to give others that
51:15
experience. And possibly I could say, well,
51:17
you know, it's not that freaking expensive to fly to Sri Lanka.
51:21
It's only a little bit more expensive than flying to
51:23
Melbourne. And you can get your ass to Sri
51:26
Lanka for a couple of weeks and let's feel it.
51:29
Yeah, possibly. That's something I can do.
51:31
But yes, I do have to get it. I can educate and educate and
51:34
educate and an education is very, very important because
51:37
there are people out there saying, yes, I'm going to get
51:41
hold of this and I'm going to push myself and take my personal
51:44
choices that will take me through this transformation.
51:47
And a lot of the members I've got, I've run a platform called
51:49
Centropia. And a lot of the members on
51:51
Centropia are doing it. They're actually doing it.
51:56
But you know, not everyone has the opportunity the same way as
52:00
others do. And again, we need this whole
52:05
new cohort of people to come through and be given that taste.
52:09
And then they go back with that taste in there and they'll never
52:11
forget that taste. And they go, OK, this is the
52:13
flavour that I'm speaking through my next my, the choices
52:19
that I now can go on to make after that experience.
52:24
That's important, I think. Absolutely.
52:27
There's so much to to touch on, on what you just said.
52:29
I think that taste gives people something that they can then
52:31
recognize in, in terms of they can then see it and they know
52:35
where to, to head. But it's, I, I find myself often
52:39
thinking about this possibly you might as well in terms of it's,
52:45
you mentioned that transformation takes something.
52:48
It will take someone to be forced or their hand to be
52:51
forced or backed into a corner or have no option.
52:53
And it almost seems like, you know, you need to hit rock
52:56
bottom before you can build back up again for most people.
52:59
And that somewhat worries me in the fact that it has to get
53:04
worse to get better. And I don't like having to
53:09
highlight the seriousness of the situation or, or dwell in the
53:13
fact that it's critical for certain, you know, things that
53:17
are falling apart. Because I feel like on one hand,
53:21
I want to stress how important it is that we are at a critical
53:24
inflection point. But also I want to be, you know,
53:29
positive and trying to provide solutions.
53:32
And as you, as you mentioned, facilitate learning and all of
53:36
this kind of thing. So I'm at this balance between
53:39
wanting to shatter the rooftops and be like, this is serious.
53:42
We need to do something. But also, like, I'm aware that
53:48
most people back away when they go whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you
53:51
know, let me just enjoy my coffee, as you mentioned, you
53:53
know, like they just go, this is to, you know, whatever, Like
53:56
we've got all this like knowledge will be sweet, that
53:58
kind of thing. It's this dismissive approach
54:00
until it really effects that person in order to make that
54:04
change. And, you know, that's that's
54:08
basically taking on all of the existential crisis and and
54:11
putting it on the shoulders of of myself and, you know, others.
54:15
But I feel that if I can understand that these things are
54:21
at play, and then through what I'm doing in terms of how I'm
54:28
expressing my life, how I'm choosing to make my choices, I
54:33
can then plant that seed. Like you said, I can give people
54:39
a taste, a flavor of what it could possibly look like.
54:43
And when that person is at the right point in time where they
54:48
are going to be receptive to that information, then they are
54:52
going to be drawn in. And it's this drawing in, not
54:57
kind of pushing and forcing people.
55:01
I wonder how you see that kind of approach and balance in terms
55:07
of like, do you relate to that personally?
55:11
Yeah, yeah. OK.
55:12
So that's the way I used to be before I learned some things.
55:20
But let's just take a step back and look at what you said
55:23
earlier and what what you were saying.
55:30
Positive you want to keep it positive.
55:32
You know, there's so many negative you started to impose
55:36
value judgments. True, true.
55:38
You started to say this is good and that's bad.
55:41
Yeah. That's the mistake.
55:43
But it's a mistake that we only learned that we learn, right.
55:47
So let's just say, for instance, that you go through hell and
55:51
back. It's a subjective term.
55:54
It is. Suffering is not good nor bad.
55:58
Now I know I'm sounding Buddhist here, but I do understand this
56:01
philosophy is truth it. I agree.
56:03
Right. So The thing is, when you come
56:06
out the other side of a strong, let's just call it a strong
56:09
experience, which are transformative.
56:13
Strong experiences are transformative.
56:17
They're not an insipid experience, which is comfort
56:21
zone, which is keeping you in the battery cage as a hen.
56:29
You go through the transformative experience.
56:33
When you come out the other side of that transformative
56:36
experience, I will bet you 100% of the time, 100% of the people
56:41
will say I would never swap that for anything, nor would I ever
56:45
go back to who I was before. It's the best thing that's ever
56:50
happened to me because of who I am now and who I've become for
56:54
that. So if you really want to, then
56:57
have a look at it from a value point of view.
57:00
It's actually positive. It is positive that I see what
57:05
you mean. So all we're doing is de
57:07
domesticating. Yeah.
57:10
But if we want to say this is positive and that's negative,
57:12
well, that's all doom and gloom. All we're doing is feeling that
57:15
our comfort zone's threatened. We're wanting to have our cake
57:20
and eat it, and it ain't gonna happen.
57:24
Yeah. So it's a real it's a really
57:26
interesting time because we're all fantastic people, but hardly
57:30
any of us have tapped into that deep strength to find out who we
57:33
really are and how fantastic we really are.
57:38
I really, I really relate to that.
57:41
I have some work to do to embody that and experience that, as you
57:46
mentioned, because I feel like that's the part, the path that
57:50
I'm moving through, maybe the the succession that I'm going
57:53
through. But I, I totally understand when
57:57
you say like, you know, someone's worst day is their
57:59
worst day. Like it's very subjective.
58:01
It's, it could be anything. And assigning some sort of value
58:08
judgement takes away from it being, it is what it is.
58:11
And that, yeah, that's kind of blocking us to allow us to move
58:18
forward. So I feel like, you know, as
58:20
yourself, you've done, you have moved through this experiential
58:24
succession. I don't understand.
58:27
I'm not no guru. Man, sorry, no, no, no, I yeah,
58:29
yeah. Well, for example, in this in
58:32
this pathway, I'm now learning from your experience and, and
58:37
having an experience myself during this conversation where I
58:40
can be enlightened to a few different ideas and perspective
58:43
shifts. And, you know, I very, very much
58:47
love doing that. And I feel like these are the
58:50
points and the inflection points in somebody's life where you
58:52
start to learn these things. I want.
58:56
To interrupt you for a second. Please.
58:58
Yeah. Here's a question.
58:59
It's rhetorical. Just imagine how stupid we would
59:03
be if nothing bad ever happened to us.
59:07
Imagine how stupid, naive and intolerable we would be.
59:12
True. So yeah, exactly right.
59:15
I always think about that in terms of, you know, how you have
59:18
that voice in your head that it's a you know what you should
59:23
be doing, but they're not quite often.
59:25
We aren't doing that and we aren't meeting that expectation.
59:28
But imagine how. Imagine how boring maybe it
59:34
would be if we were always exactly as we thought we should
59:37
be and there was no nuance, There was no ups and downs.
59:41
You need the light to see the dark.
59:43
You need the in to know the out you need to.
59:45
We'd have no character. We'd have nothing to we.
59:47
Have nothing to offer. Yeah, exactly.
59:50
Like those really, really rich kids, you know, that grow up and
59:53
they don't know what an iron is and they just don't know what a
59:57
supermarket is. You know, you hear about these
59:59
people that have got no idea what this or that is, and it's
1:00:01
just like. Yeah, great, dude.
1:00:05
You're a very bland guy. I can't relate to you.
1:00:08
You know if I fucking see you, man.
1:00:10
That's exactly right. Again, it's an irony, The value
1:00:14
judgment. Then if nothing bad ever
1:00:18
happened to us, imagine how boring or useless or intolerable
1:00:27
we would be. It's the irony there.
1:00:30
It's it's good that these things, strong experiences,
1:00:35
happen to us to shape our character, to be able to be more
1:00:41
accepting of what's around us. And if we're more accepting of
1:00:45
what's around us, we can then work with it and integrate with
1:00:50
it more authentically. And I understand that this is
1:00:56
the truth and this is what we've got to work with instead of
1:00:58
reject it or react to it or become emotionally triggered by
1:01:03
it. It just, it creates us to it.
1:01:07
It, it transforms us. And yeah, that's that's what
1:01:09
we're after. Absolutely.
1:01:13
I've no, I, I can totally understand that.
1:01:15
And that lights up something in me that feels true.
1:01:19
You know what I mean? And because also, you know, we
1:01:23
see this in the ecosystems, right?
1:01:25
Bringing it back to that, we we see that a stress or a
1:01:31
influence, as you called it earlier, produces change,
1:01:36
produces this transformation. And I see us as no different in
1:01:41
that, in that regard as well personally, mate, I heard you
1:01:47
mentioned that when you found this way of working with things,
1:01:54
just to kind of close out this, this conversation, you, you
1:01:57
mentioned that it felt right to you and it felt true when you
1:02:01
first grasp these concepts without fully necessarily
1:02:05
understanding all the detail, it just felt right.
1:02:09
Can you maybe just tell that story a little bit for us to
1:02:13
round out and then and what that was like for you getting that
1:02:17
feeling? Yeah.
1:02:19
OK. So leading up to that
1:02:24
realization, I was trying to do that myself, trying to work it
1:02:30
out to crack the code. I was working hard a full time
1:02:33
in agroforestry, but this was precinctropy.
1:02:38
I was trying to do exactly what Ernst was got, right.
1:02:43
So therefore I had a built up body of experience within me.
1:02:49
So again, not knowledge, but a body of experience.
1:02:54
So when I saw what he was doing it something cracked, it opened
1:03:00
up. It's like the final part of the
1:03:03
puzzle dropped in. I can't explain it because it's
1:03:06
not academic or cognitive. It's not not like that.
1:03:12
It's a body of experience. It's, it's, it's throughout,
1:03:16
it's whole, it's not intellectual.
1:03:19
So I just knew. I don't know how, but I knew and
1:03:24
I was completely certain. I was so certain.
1:03:29
I was absolutely, positively certain.
1:03:32
Funnily enough, when I first took the journey to go full time
1:03:35
into regeneration, I quit up. I quit, sold out of the whole
1:03:39
show. You.
1:03:41
Know the whole freaking show everything you know, I sold out
1:03:45
of the circus man and then went invested full time into it and I
1:03:51
was confident even though I didn't know the path ahead and
1:03:55
couldn't see it. I was confident I was on the
1:03:57
right path and I was in that I was dedicated.
1:04:00
I was devoted to that for I was a good 6-7 years in by the time
1:04:04
I found out about a century so far, I've probably got a
1:04:07
combined, you know, total experience of over 20 years now,
1:04:10
25 years. But once I saw what he did, I
1:04:16
don't know how to explain it, but I knew.
1:04:18
I just knew. And funnily enough, you know,
1:04:22
The funny thing is when I saw the eucalyptus, I knew.
1:04:28
I just thought this guy's got it because all I'd heard is how bad
1:04:33
eucalyptus are up until the point where I saw him growing
1:04:36
them. And I thought, this guy's got
1:04:38
it. He's got it.
1:04:41
He knows this. There's something here.
1:04:44
And I don't know how or why, but I knew.
1:04:47
And I knew. And I knew I was right.
1:04:49
And it's turned out that I was right.
1:04:51
Yeah. When I got it in my hands, I
1:04:54
felt like I had been given a superpower and I felt like I
1:05:02
could see for 100 miles. I don't know why, man.
1:05:06
That's incredible. I think it's just something to
1:05:08
highlight because I feel like some people might get something
1:05:11
like that and it's they're not necessarily trusting that
1:05:14
instinctual feeling. Just just lastly, then you're a
1:05:20
fifth generation farmer. What, what role has dad and
1:05:25
future, sorry, past generations played in, in moving towards
1:05:30
this and how how has that transition been through
1:05:33
generations for you, for you guys?
1:05:38
Yeah, well, the spirit doesn't shift or change.
1:05:42
What happens is what how we do it changes, but the spirit never
1:05:47
changes. And it's that spirit that drives
1:05:51
that. Whatever you want to call it,
1:05:54
lineage or whatever you'd like to call it, it's not exclusive
1:05:57
to me. I have a head start because it's
1:06:01
in my blood. But it's open and accessible to
1:06:05
everybody. But what you get once you, you
1:06:12
feel you tap into that and you immerse into it once you once
1:06:15
what you what you get from that is a strength that it's deep
1:06:29
strong. It's deep strength like it it's,
1:06:32
you know, to see what farmers face alone every day, it's very
1:06:39
hard to actually understand understand it because we're not
1:06:42
there to see it. But I've seen what happens when
1:06:47
things go catastrophically wrong and the next day they get up and
1:06:51
keep going. Things that will just shake out
1:06:56
and psychologically rattle a lot of people until they become
1:06:59
conditioned to it. That strength is really
1:07:02
important. We need that strength and it's
1:07:04
going back again to what the transformative thing that we're
1:07:08
talking about. We need that strength to
1:07:10
persevere. We really need it and we need to
1:07:13
develop it and culture cultivate it.
1:07:15
We need to husband experiences that give people husband
1:07:20
situations that give people that experience.
1:07:23
We need to share it, but ultimately it's their own
1:07:26
personal thing, you know? And so you know, like farming is
1:07:33
to lose everything and then get up the next day and start again
1:07:39
without missing a beat. If you can do that, you've got
1:07:44
it. But you need to develop that
1:07:47
because the amount of mourning and loss that we go through when
1:07:53
we have what we think is sacred taken away from us, only to
1:07:57
learn that that doesn't mean anything because a new day is a
1:08:00
new day. When do we really become
1:08:04
acquainted with that in reality, rather than conceptually?
1:08:07
We are made of we. We become the fabric that we
1:08:10
needed that's needed to be done. And we all have it.
1:08:14
We just need to get those experiences shared and build it
1:08:17
and foster that and really start to teach people that when
1:08:20
things, you think, everything you think that's right has just
1:08:24
been proven wrong, you're still OK.
1:08:28
It's not about your ego. It's not about what you thought
1:08:30
it was. It's still OK.
1:08:31
You're still who you are. And if you let go of it all
1:08:33
that, you find that you're actually in a better position
1:08:37
'cause you now have had the deception, the deceit has been
1:08:40
taken away. I keep going back to this Hindu
1:08:43
stuff and Buddha stuff. It's true.
1:08:45
I mean, there's a lot of allegory there that you know,
1:08:48
these are these demons that with the red faces and big teeth and
1:08:52
shit like that, these are all of the manifestations of self
1:08:55
deception. The demons that we're working
1:08:57
with, that are working, we choose them and embrace them.
1:09:00
These are our choices. This is the deepest ironies that
1:09:03
we work with. If we can let that go and
1:09:05
understand, these demons vanish through the process of humility,
1:09:09
understanding and learning and looking towards something bigger
1:09:11
than us and then devoting to it. It doesn't have to be, you know,
1:09:17
secular thing. You know what I mean?
1:09:18
It's just the it's just the actual function of who we are
1:09:22
that we aren't, we are ourselves.
1:09:24
We are not gods. Take that.
1:09:27
Once we get that, once we understand that, we'll stop
1:09:29
having tantrums. Again, there's another deep
1:09:32
irony there. What God has a tantrum?
1:09:34
Perhaps Zeus, You know, we don't know, but you know, you get what
1:09:37
I mean. I do, yeah.
1:09:57
Wow. There we have it.
1:09:58
Ladies and gentlemen, what an incredible place to round out
1:10:01
that conversation. I think you'll agree that I'm
1:10:05
contemplating a lot of what Scott had to offer today, and it
1:10:09
was a really contemplative conversation.
1:10:12
I'm not even sure if I'm saying that right, but it's made me
1:10:15
really sit there and think about what it means to be human being,
1:10:18
what it means to be part of a system, what it means to
1:10:21
observe, to use the natural blueprints that we've been given
1:10:25
by Mother Nature and to then be able to take that into different
1:10:30
areas of our lives. And then also as myself, as a,
1:10:33
as a facilitator, as an educator, how I can best give
1:10:37
those experiences, plant those seeds for those of you out there
1:10:41
who are listening to the content.
1:10:44
So firstly, thank you Scott. What an effort to come and sit
1:10:49
down and explain that to us, to answer all of my crazy
1:10:53
questions. I'm so grateful to Scott for
1:10:55
doing that. And you can check out and follow
1:10:57
him, which I highly encourage you to do because he's out there
1:11:00
demonstrating it. He's walking the walk.
1:11:02
And as he mentioned, he's looking to facilitate more
1:11:05
experiences that you could be involved in yourself.
1:11:08
So as always, his links will be in the description, the show
1:11:11
notes below. But if you enjoyed this episode,
1:11:14
if you found value from it, I would deeply appreciate you
1:11:18
sharing it around. The number one thing that you
1:11:21
can do is to follow the podcast. So just click subscribe, click
1:11:25
follow on whatever platform you're listening to, but also
1:11:28
leave some thoughtful comments. I'd love to hear what you
1:11:30
thought about this episode. What rings true for you?
1:11:34
What experiences have you had that have shaped your new
1:11:38
changed perspective in these areas?
1:11:40
And ultimately, what can we do to help others to find and reach
1:11:46
that perspective shift? But ultimately, I'm going to be
1:11:50
sitting with this conversation, and I'm really, really grateful
1:11:53
to Scott for having it and for joining us.
1:11:55
So what an episode, episode 60. That was great.
1:11:59
Thank you again, everybody. I'll leave it there.
1:12:01
Take care and bye for now.