Latest / The Birth Lounge Podcast / Ep. 445: Reair of Ep. 248: Mirror Neurons in Labor with Dr. Jaz Robbins

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Ep. 445: Reair of Ep. 248: Mirror Neurons in Labor with Dr. Jaz Robbins · The Birth Lounge Podcast

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Providers have the opportunity to create the environment that promotes healthy birth outcomes just by using mirror neurons, right? We can't see them, but they are at work.
Hi.
Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to make sure that you knew about my free guide to Pitocin use.
It's a PDF download that breaks down everything that you need to know about Pitocin use.
What does the FDA say about.
Proper and safe use.
How do we typically see it be used in American hospitals? If those two things differ, what kind of data do you need to be aware of in terms of the different uses of Pitocin? Where are some places in labor where Pitocin actually might be useful? How do you know if you're getting too much too fast? How do you know what the hospital policy is, plus what are your other options plus what you can say no to, plus what you can request.
Well, it's all in the PDF guide and that's totally free for you for you.
So you can go to the birth lounge.com/pitocin.
That's P-I-T-O-C-I-N, Pitocin and download.
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Plus how to have these conversations with your provider to make sure that your birth goals are met and respected during your labor.
Again, you can find that@thebirthlounge.com
slash pitocin.
Alright, now onto the episode.
Hey, and welcome back to another episode of the Birth Lounge podcast.
All right, you guys.
This episode is one of my top favorites to date.
It is an episode that is so fascinating and I totally geek out.
I don't know if you knew this about me, but my undergrad is in psychology.
My master's is in human development and family studies, but.
My first degree is in psychology, and I really loved psychology.
I didn't do it because I couldn't pick anything else.
I did psychology because I intentionally chose it.
I loved learning about the brain.
Now I use that every single day.
And teaching childbirth education and helping people understand labor patterns and understand the different stages of labor and understand, or, you know, rather help their partner understand what's going on and how they can best support someone in labor.
And I use it with newborns every single day.
Not only understanding them and helping them communicate with their parents, but vice versa.
Helping their parents understand their baby and what they're trying to communicate in their cries and their behaviors and um, their body movements, things like that.
So psychology is something that I can easily, easily geek out on.
And today's episode is all about mirror neurons.
Now mirror neurons are a specific type of neuron in our brain.
Obviously when you get up and you do something, you fire off neurons in your brain to help your body move, to help your brain compute what you're trying to do and and actually fire those neurons to accomplish that goal.
Right now, mirror neurons, you don't actually have to be doing it.
You can act as if you're doing it, or you can actually just watch someone do something and mirror neurons in your brain will fire the same as if you were doing it.
So fascinating.
I've never thought about this in terms of birth, but I went to the AWHONN conference in 2023 in the summer of 2023, um, and that's the Association for Women's Health, obstetrics and Neonatal Nurses, and.
Dr.
Jaz Robbins was a speaker that I saw, and I was blown away by her knowledge and philosophies around birth.
Dr.
Jaz Robbins is a therapist, a nutritionist and author, professor, and a mental health consultant.
She's also the founder of the nonprofit Healing Hope and Love, as well as a mental health consulting firm.
The active experience, she specializes in working with clients who have histories of trauma or complicated health concerns, and you can see her love and compassion in the way that she speaks about not only her clients, but birthing people in general.
It was really transformative for me to sit in the audience and listen to her because she is so trauma informed.
The perspective that she has is, I don't know.
It's something I would've never considered because it is.
So detailed.
It's so pinpointed.
It is so trauma informed that my knowledge just wasn't there.
And so sitting in the audience, I immediately was like, wow, I want to bring this to my audience because this has just transformed me and I, I want them to know about it too.
And so I wanted to bring on Dr.
Jaz to talk to you about mirror neurons, how they play a role in your labor, how your partner can use them.
We even touch on how your doctors and your nurses experiences can actually impact your labor experience in terms of mirror neurons, how your mirror neurons might react to theirs, or vice versa, how theirs might react to you.
It is really fascinating stuff.
I'm gonna be quiet because honestly, again, one of my favorite episodes to date.
It is jam packed with so many things.
If you are, um, watching this on YouTube, you are going to see my jaw drops so many times because Dr.
Jaz is just filled with so much wisdom, and I hope you find it as transformative as I did.
All right, Dr.
Jaz, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
I am very excited for this conversation.
Before we started recording, I was sharing with you that I do have a small background in psychology, just like so many other people.
And so it's not anything that I've really thought deeply about in many years.
However, when I saw you speak at the AWHONN conference, I was really blown away by the way not only that you presented the information, but just how applicable mirror neurons are to birth trauma and how we perceive our birth and maybe even how we experience our birth and I left there.
Just being on a mission.
I was like, my people have to hear this.
So honestly, it is a huge honor to have you here today.
Thank you so much, truly for your time.
Okay, so I guess to get started before we dive too much into things, we should probably define what mirror neurons are.
Can you tell us what we need to know about mirror neurons before we go off into this conversation? Yeah.
So even backing it up a little bit further, let's talk about what a neuron is, right? So that that's this special fancy word for nerve cell.
So nerve cells are primarily housed in the brain.
Our brains have about 85 billion nerve cells and nerve cells.
They're like Lined up head to tail, head to tail, head to tail, and these nerve cells, these neurons are responsible for sending messages through the brain, through the central nervous system, and it happens super fast, quick, quick, quick, they're called synapses, so if an individual wants to reach for their phone, to pick up their cell phone, the thought, right, that intonation Is a message that sent and it travels down a series of neurons, a series of nerve cells so that your hand right or left as you imagined or as you intended can reach in that direction of that cell phone, pick up that cell phone and then continue the movement that you want to do with that cell phone in your hand.
That's the function of.
The neuron or the nerve cells, so they are responsible for communicating with one another.
They are responsible for all of the movements, all of the actions that we do with our bodies, that we do on purpose, that we do voluntarily.
Things like clap, things like sing, talk, walk, run, jump.
They're also responsible for all of the things that we do without thinking, thank goodness, like breathing.
I don't want to have to think to take a breath, like food digestion.
I don't want to have to tell my body to digest the food that I've just eaten.
Those things also are a part of the neuron system in these messages that are being sent throughout the neuronal pathways in our brains.
So when A neuron is damaged.
We might lose the ability to do a thing that we used to do without even thinking about it.
Right.
So that might look like the body not being able to reach for the cell phone.
I'm telling myself to pick up my phone, but my arm isn't moving.
So that might be as a result of stroke.
It could be brain tumor.
It could be spinal cord injury.
And we've seen people develop temporary as well as permanent paralysis.
Right.
And that's when I'm telling.
The body to do something and the body isn't doing it because there's been neurons that are damaged.
So either the messages aren't being sent or the messages aren't being received.
And therein lies, I want to take a step, but my foot isn't moving.
So that's neurons.
Mirror neurons are a specialized type of neuron.
They were discovered in the 1990s by observing macaque monkeys.
So this particular type of monkey were being observed by scientists.
And the monkeys had electrodes placed on their brains, on their Skulls, and they were watching the brain activity when the monkeys did various sensory activities.
So, in particular at one moment, a monkey reached for a banana, peeled the banana.
And ate the banana, and the scientists were able to see exactly which neurons fired when the monkey did that sequence of behavior.
Well, without even thinking about it, the electrodes remain there, and this particular monkey watched another monkey grab a banana.
Peel the banana and eat the banana.
And what happened was the exact same neurons were firing as if the monkey was doing the behavior themselves, but the monkey was sitting or standing still.
No movement, but those neurons were firing.
Those are mirror neurons.
So mirror neurons fire when we observe an individual do a behavior.
As in the brain is active as if we are doing it ourselves wild.
Absolutely wild.
And this.
This sort of phenomenon or this sequence is really impactful in the human experience because it's a part of how we're able to learn through observation.
So if I can see someone do a thing, particularly if they're engaged in a behavior where I can guess the intention or I know the intention.
Right? Picking up a water bottle and unscrewing the tap.
I can guess the intention of that behavior.
And when I know the intention or I can anticipate the intention of the behavior, my neuronal activity will fire as if I'm doing the behavior myself.
And then at a later time, I can mimic that behavior.
So think about toddlers as they're learning, as they're moving through their lives and exploring their environments, right? A lot of that is happening because They can see someone else do, and they do, which is where we get the colloquial phrase, monkey see, monkey do here in the United States.
That's that mirror neuron sort of sequence in activity.
So even as you stand motionless, even as you sit motionless, it's almost like your brain is mirroring Or simulating the behavior that you're observing, even though you aren't physically doing that behavior.
That's what mirror neurons are.
That's a long answer.
That is fascinating though.
Okay, so my brain is kind of going wild.
Everybody in the birth room has mirror neurons.
So your provider, You as the birthing person, your partner, if you have a doula, a nurse.
So now, can we kind of break down what everyone's mirror neurons are doing? Because someone has to lead the pack, I assume.
And we would hope that it would be the birthing person, but my inclination is to say it's actually going to be probably that provider.
And we would hope that they have the emotional intelligence to be able to calmly handle, like, every situation that comes to them while centering that patient with trauma informed language and care.
So, gives me huge feelings to, like, think about.
We may not be getting that.
I hope, I don't know that everyone is actually getting that experience.
But is that kind of on the right track? Yeah, exactly.
So mirror neurons in and of themselves in terms of what they do for humans for the human experience.
They allow us to learn from others through observation.
Even if I dial that back a little bit further and you can imagine yourself being in a movie theater or watching a movie in the comfort of your own home.
Mirror neurons Are the thing that's happening in our brain that allow us to get enveloped in the story that we're watching that even before the thing happens, we say, Oh, my goodness.
Because mirror neurons tap into human empathy because we can anticipate the behavior that we are observing our empathic system is activated at the same time and connection is being formed.
There's like a sense of community like we, when we go to the movies, especially in the theater and it's packed and the screen is huge.
It's almost we are in.
We're in that space.
Whatever it is that the film creators have created, we're in that space.
Mirror neurons are incredibly active and that is what allows us to feel connected to the story that's being told there on screen.
So this is Why we're able, again, to learn so well from imitation, our brains are always scanning our environment, always, always scanning our environment for movement, for actions, just in case there's something there that can be learned.
So when we talk about.
Sort of broad impact.
They can be a tool for gaining skills that we have never used.
They can be a tool for gaining skills that we have forgotten to use.
They can help us connect with others.
They can help us feel connected to the people in our environment.
I would even say notice when you are.
In a one on one conversation with another person.
And if you can be present moment focused enough, notice that when they take a drink, you like get thirsty all of a sudden and take a drink.
Legs may be crossed in the same fashion at some point in the same way.
Both may scratch their temple at the same time.
That's mirror neurons in action.
When a person gives kindness.
Mirror neurons fire as if the giver has received that kindness and I'll tie that back in in a moment.
So there's, there's even a benefit.
For the person that is doing the behavior is as well, especially when it's kindness that's being transferred from one person to another.
Oh, so again, so just beyond seeing the behavior mirror neurons, they give us that ability to see the intention behind the behavior, almost like we've got this benefit of.
Muscle memory in our brain every time we're observing someone else's action.
So when we talk about bringing this to the birthing space, and I would even argue that all the way from prenatal care, birth, postpartum care as well, this is important along the continuum when we're talking about decreasing incidence of birth trauma.
So engaging in face to face, Eye connection generates empathy.
So going back to delivering kindness to another human being, right? This, that process that's facilitated, it is done so by the mirror neurons themselves, and it allows the receiver to sort of feel what the deliverer is putting out.
The mirror neurons themselves, they create like an attunement, a nice, beautiful attuning contact, if you will.
So you've got the ability to perceive the emotional state of this other person that's putting out that energy.
So all of those that are present during the birthing experience in the birth space, they now Have I mean, massive buckets of power when we talk about impacting the outcomes of this birth experience where the birthing person for the infant being born, everyone in the birth space has the opportunity to create a sense of safety for that birthing person.
They have the opportunity to reduce feelings of anxiety.
For that birthing person.
They have the opportunity to motivate the birthing person to engage in soothing activities by initiating said behavior first by tone of voice by inflection by hand movements and gestures.
So you raised an excellent point around.
The providers in the space being able to even get to that place for themselves.
It's incredibly difficult and we're not leaning on the birthing person to initiate this process.
One thing we know about the birth process, even in the most beautiful of experiences, it is a stressful time for the body.
The human body is going through a lot.
It's a stressful time.
Anytime the human body is experiencing stress, if we think about The nervous system.
I'll just really quick green light.
We know in traffic is go green light in the nervous system.
This is the activation of the sympathetic nervous system.
So the body's in rest and digest the body wants to connect to self wants to connect to others.
This is when we feel most like ourselves, yellow light and traffic tells us that we need to sort of be alert because.
Threat or danger could be around the corner in the body.
That's an activation of the did I say parasympathetic? So this is an activation of the sympathetic nervous system.
So this is when the body is in fight or flight.
So we are sensing a threat in the environment.
We're sensing danger in the environment.
And resources are being shunted from other Functions in the body to be able to address whatever this threat is.
And then if a person has been in that phase or that state, that nervous system state for far too long, they'll tip over into the red.
And that is just, that's the freeze.
That is over activation of the sympathetic nervous system.
And that's where it's like, you know what I've tapped out.
And in the birthing space, that might look like I can't do this anymore.
I, you know, resources have been completely exhausted for that person, even in the best of situations, the birthing person isn't in green, the prefrontal cortex that governs our ability to organize thoughts, our ability to make sound decisions.
And I'm not saying that birth givers are.
Not wise individuals.
I'm not saying that they don't know what's best for them.
That's not it.
Functionally, in terms of brain function, because the body is under stress, right? Functionally, the prefrontal cortex it's gone offline.
So if we're not sort of thinking with that front brain, which isn't fully developed until we're 25 years old, which in a lot of states in the US you can't rent a car until you're 25 years old.
It's because we're not thinking rationally until that part of the brain is fully developed.
So we're thinking with our.
Folks will call reptilian brain, right? The amygdala.
That's what's driving.
That is what's driving the process for the birth giver during the birthing process.
It is literally, I want to survive.
I want this baby to survive.
And that's what's driving it.
We can't rely on them necessarily to be able to rationally.
Do much of anything.
So they are seeking that leadership, that guidance, that sort of safety control, all of those things because they're focusing on survival.
So the people in the room have to be the prefrontal cortex for those individuals in the, in those moments.
So in terms of neurons, that means that the nurses, the doulas, the midwives, the Medical professionals, the doctors, if we're in a hospital setting, they have so much power to use their physicality, all of their body, to attune to the birthing person, to create a sense of safety, to create a sense of warmth, a sense of care, and to decrease the level of anxiety that is being felt, again, even in the best of situations.
Even in the best of situations, there's some worry, there's some concern, there's some anxiety.
So when the folks in the room can really own that power that they have, knowingly or unknowingly, it can absolutely shift everything for the birthing person and for the entire experience for everyone involved in that experience, but first to your point, it requires those individuals in the room to, to have that wherewithal, right? So, if folks are coming to the space burnt out, if folks are coming to the space with my problems from yesterday, if folks are coming to the space with, you know, their own sort of issues, challenges, lemons that life has thrown at them, it makes it really, really difficult for them to be in the place where they can sort of be that frontal lobe for the birthing person because they're not.
They're not present in the moment themselves, and then it becomes really, really challenging.
And so everyone, everyone is at a heightened state of anxiety in those situations, and everyone is sort of just almost piecing it together as they go, as opposed to being able to move through that birth experience with definitive thought, Intention and a sound sense of purpose for the outcomes that they're seeking for that birthing person.
And for that infant, I think that this conversation just brought so much validation to all the people who.
Experience that that freeze or that fawning in birth, and they've been carrying around the weight of like, but why couldn't I say anything? I, I knew in my head.
I didn't want that.
I knew I wanted to say no.
I knew I, I knew I had another option.
I just couldn't say it.
Why didn't I do that? And it's that like self guilt.
But really, the system did fail you.
Unfortunately, it's, you know, it really comes down to the medical system and the training Is not that trauma informed kind of perspective that we need in order to truly support birth in a way that's appropriate, right? That is so, so, so, so true.
And it becomes even more complicated when the birthing person has a history of trauma, right? So what happens when an individual is a trauma survivor, that nervous system naturally does not attune to green light.
That person is living life.
Void of a lot of sustained green light experiences in green light states, so they're mostly running in yellow and red most of the time.
So that's you know, an individual showing up as abrasive, perhaps in some of the prenatal visits, or this might be someone that's termed as a difficult patient, perhaps you What we have to understand as healthcare providers is, again, the trauma informed lens moves us away from what's wrong with you, moving us toward what happened to you.
And even if we just lead and walk with that question as like I'm entering every room with what happened to you.
It necessarily changes the way that I interact with every single patient that I'm providing care to.
Every single patient, what happened to you? Please let me take a moment to understand what this is that I'm seeing right here.
That's, that's showing up.
So for the person who is.
Coming into the pregnancy and birth space with a history of trauma.
Their sense of safety was stolen and lost long ago, long ago.
So we're asking them to come into a space, childbirth.
Where you are the most vulnerable that you're likely ever going to be ever in life, ever.
I mean, fully exposed, fully exposed physically and emotionally fully exposed.
Right.
And how can we, number one, just speaking to birthing persons and folks that have given birth.
It is completely unfair for you to.
Judge yourself to shame yourself or to guilt yourself for sort of finding yourself in that freeze state because to go from yellow to red, it's not a, it's not a huge step to go to, to go from one to the other.
Right.
It's just a, a gentle nudge.
It doesn't take much.
It doesn't take much at all.
And given the stressors.
Of pregnancy and childbirth falling into that red from time to time or being in that red for sustained period of time, right? And postpartum depression absolutely is a red light is over activation of the sympathetic nervous system.
It makes sense, given everything else that this individual has experienced across the lifespan.
It absolutely makes sense.
And it's on the healthcare providers.
And this is tough, and I talk about this all the time because the training that they're getting is so lacking in a true understanding of trauma informed care and also a true understanding of how to implement trauma informed approaches for whatever your practice is.
I think it's.
Turned into a trendy term, but in terms of application, I think application is lost on a lot of individuals and that's the training.
Unfortunately that.
Is, is lacking for folks who work in in these spaces.
But yeah, it's not at all fair for birth givers to carry that shame or guilt because of what I didn't say, what I didn't do, why I didn't advocate for myself.
I mean, think about, I work with a lot of sexual trauma survivors and there's so many times that they say.
I just froze.
That's a trauma response.
Yeah.
That's a trauma response.
That's, that's a response that like we are doing our best to protect ourselves to like Stay on this side of life in those moments.
So, yeah, it's not fair for anyone to find themselves guilting themselves or shaming themselves for being in that space.
Yeah, and I don't, I don't want to demonize doctors and nurses or the medical system at all either.
It's a failure.
The system is broken.
I mean, we talk about that all the time.
That's not new.
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I'm not shaming any one particular person.
It is the system.
And I think that, you know, we keep talking about patients living in green, yellow, red.
Most doctors and nurses post COVID are probably living in yellow or red.
And so if now we have, you know, a traumatized red doctor and a traumatized yellow nurse and we have a yellow or red patient and possibly their partner is yellow or red and or they're the only green in the room.
I mean, are we looking at a recipe for disaster or what? You know, like It's incredibly challenging.
It is incredibly challenging because that is likely the picture for many folks who are giving birth right now in this time in this space, especially as you mentioned post COVID.
Yeah.
So who Who is driving the attunement bus, who is leading the way in this regard and hopefully right.
We are hoping that it's a partner or a parent that's going to be there during the birthing process.
We're hoping that one of the folks on the, medical team, or if it's a doula, or if it's a midwife, that one of those would be able to do so.
I think this is why it's incredibly important to have that birth plan sort of really thought out and thought through in sharing that with as many individuals as possible.
Again, if it's a partner, great.
If it's a parent, great.
If it's the nurse or the doula, great.
So that someone knows your intention.
Someone knows when you were thinking clearly and thinking rationally and thinking soundly.
This is what you wanted.
This is what you hoped for, right? So then being able to at least at the very minimum, we've got a map.
Yeah, I might not be in my best right now, but I've got this map and I've talked it over with my patient.
The patient has been clear about this, that and the other and using that as like the grounding to move from.
And hopefully more can at least get on board during the birth process to use that as a place from which to start to deliver care.
Yeah, okay, so I would love to talk about how we can maybe use mirror neurons to our advantage.
So I am familiar with mirror neurons in terms of like negotiation.
You talked about taking a sip of water when someone does that.
I know it in like however you use your hands.
You had mentioned people's legs.
I also know it in like bonding with your partner.
Mirror neurons can play a big role in like intimate relationships.
It's why that when you are feeling like you know, you need a boost in confidence, you can go stand in front of a mirror and a big X you guys and be like, I'm wonderful.
I am great at my job.
I'm the best, you know, attorney there is whatever you, you know, you need.
That's why these work.
Okay.
So how do we use those? And so I was thinking about Should we be teaching our partners in labor? Should we be teaching our partners things that will help us? I imagine that works because that's kind of what I do as a doula.
and there must be some sort of benefit to watching positive births that you are trying to achieve.
So if you want an unmedicated water birth, watch those videos.
If you're hoping for an epidural birth but you don't wanna be on your back, watch.
People have upright hands and knees, whatever position with an epidural.
Seek those out is am I kind of on the right track here? Absolutely.
And think about so just to remind everyone the lens from which I share this information.
I am a trauma therapist and a nutritionist.
And so I come from the mental health space, and I work with folks who have experienced all types of trauma.
Birth trauma is 1 of those.
So that's the lens through which I view this work.
But.
Think about something as simple as breathing exercises or breathing classes that a pregnant person might attend with their partner.
So if we really want to break down why it's effective to go to these prenatal classes of all sorts and all kinds, right? Why it's effective to go with partner because partner now has the ability to stand in the gap for that pregnant person for the person giving birth when that prefrontal course cortex is going offline during the birth process.
So, all right.
Now, I have to initiate the breathing pattern for my partner, I have to initiate the XYZ for my partner.
Thank goodness, right? I attended those classes.
So now it's me, it's on me to ground them and to remind them they need it.
They need it to remind them of all of the things that we've learned leading up to this pregnancy.
Absolutely.
That's like how that works.
That's sort of like the nuts and bolts of those kinds of activities.
In addition, when like, I love the idea of viewing videos of the kind of birth that you yourself want.
So one thing that that will do for the birthing person for the partner is it.
allows them to one, even recognize that as a possibility, as opposed to a fantasy.
I have this notion that I want to do this, and I'm not sure if it's doable, even though they may have read it somewhere, seen it somewhere, but to bring it Home for them.
Sometimes it feels like it's a bit out of grasp, but to see it actually outplay it builds up the confidence of the birthing person and the confidence of the partner.
If they're part of this process that we we can do this, we can do this.
And in that piece again, that's giving a little bit of education primarily to the partner because they're again, they're going to have to really stand in for that birthing person when the rubber meets the road during that labor process.
So the video watching is incredibly helpful to build confidence and sort of like do some research and it will activate those mirror neurons.
And then when it comes time.
For actual the birth process itself, the partner, the parent, whoever that supporting person has been for that birth giver, it will be on them to sort of get their cape.
And get ready to come in and show up in a massively supportive way so that they can just connect the dots of all of the work that has been done up until now, so that that birth person feel supported and doesn't feel like, you know.
If they should fall and I'm using that in air quotes that there won't be anyone there to catch me.
They need to feel supported in this process.
And so, yeah, the video watching is 1 way to initiate that.
Well, it goes back to feeling safe, right? That safety is key in birth.
If someone is going to have a positive birth experience, safety is a requirement in that equation.
It just, it has to be there.
And when it is absent, almost always there's going to be trauma.
Which is, you know, that's kind of sad.
Okay, can we dive into what someone can do? And this is, Total side note, but I just feel like maybe you have some great information about this if you have been labeled a difficult patient Or maybe providers out there who kind of tend to label people a difficult patient What kind of advice do you have for patients and providers? I love the advice of start changing your language and your perspective from like what's wrong with you to what's happening.
But there's gotta be a little bit more that providers and nurses can understand about why our patients come to us sometimes with the walls that they have or with the reservations that they have.
Pretty much, I mean, people are valid in the things they feel.
Give us, HeHe, 10 more minutes.
All problems will be solved in the next 10 minutes of conversation here.
That's a huge, huge question.
That's a huge question, because what we in turn, let's start with providers, right? So what can providers do outside of just sort of changing their thought process, changing their perspective, changing their lens through which they view their patients.
The, the question that comes before that is what is motivating them to view the patient in that way to begin with.
Got it.
Right.
So how is it that a provider is walking into a space where they're delivering healthcare, whatever form, whoever they might be, whatever their role is, how is it that this individual is in this space and is starting with, Oh my God, this is a difficult person.
Jeez.
Where's that come from? Right.
Right.
And that could be so many different places.
It could be implicit bias.
It could be personal trauma.
It could be the morning that they had.
It could be the dissatisfaction with work.
It could be burnout.
It, right, so, if that list is that long, then that means The antidotes for each, right? We've got to address each of them in a different way.
Implicit bias has to be addressed in, in some form or fashion.
And a lot of times it's going to be through a professional development and education.
Burnout has to be addressed.
How to deal with your own personal trauma as a healthcare provider who is working with individuals with histories of trauma and healthcare in and of itself is stressful, right? I don't know.
I mean, medical billing may and I'm not pooping on anybody's career, but to work in health care is to like raise your hand and sign up for working in a high anxiety intense field, regardless of the discipline.
So, I mean, it is.
And each of these in and of themselves are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, huge.
This is like similarly, but different.
How is it that an officer of the law sees an individual and automatically jumps to this conclusion? right? This person who's meant to protect and serve.
Why aren't they protecting and serving in this particular situation? That is like who knows? And it could be any number of reasons.
That's the same thing when we're talking about health care providers.
Why aren't you leading with him? Empathy? Why aren't you leading with curiosity? Why aren't you leading with the notion that the patient is the expert of their lived experience.
And I'm here to learn from them.
Why aren't you leading with, you know what, I don't know everything.
I need you to help me a little bit patient so that I can provide you with the best possible care.
Why aren't they leading with that? Why? Again, the list is so long, which means the ways that we can combat it are so varied and so, so many, there's so many different things that can be done.
Initially, I would say, and this sounds so rudimentary, it's like, Oh, come on, Dr.
Jaz, you can do better than that.
But we just remember why we came into this field.
Can we hold that? Why? Why? For what? There's so many different ways that a person can earn a living, earn an income.
Why this? Field in particular, and a lot of times, even as a mental health provider, a lot of times, it's me having to remind myself, you know what, I do this work because dot, dot, dot, okay, I'm ready for my next patient now, because the work is hard.
The work will necessarily wear you down, break you down, and there's high burnout.
There's high burnout.
This is what we've signed up for.
So that means that as a healthcare provider of any kind, of any discipline, of any flavor, it's important for each of us to be doing our own work all the time.
Self care has to be so fluent for us that we know immediately, Oh, you know what? That happened.
That means I'm feeling a little bit burnt out.
I'm feeling a little bit not myself.
Today, as soon as I get off of work, I'm going to dot, dot, dot, I'm going to dot, dot, dot.
And you almost have to have that at the ready and be able to attend to that for yourself so that you can show up in the way that you need to show up for your patients.
When I think about patients, birthing people and them.
Being able to advocate for themselves when they suspect that they might get labeled the problem patient or When they feel like they have been labeled the problem patient or when they feel like oh, I'm just not Doesn't feel like I'm connecting with my nurse or with my doctor.
It may feel Way out there and it may feel antithetical to anything that you've been taught, but during that appointment, whatever the appointment is along the pregnancy continuum, you have the power to say, can I pause this just for a minute and share something with you? Even saying that shift, it already shifts the energy already, and you can share as much or as little as you choose to.
I just want to let you know.
I am not intending to be difficult, however, this has happened in the past, whether it's connected to a past birth, whether it's connected to sexual trauma, whether it's connected to intimate partner violence, whatever, and I'll be honest I do come with a little bit of anxiety, I do come with some extra nerves, so this is difficult for me, and I'm just hoping that you can work with me.
Like, beautiful, beautiful.
We don't get what we don't ask for.
We have to at least ask, right? And just communicating with a provider in that way, will, it forces them to pause.
And it forces them to look at themselves, even though in what I just shared, it wasn't pointing a finger.
You did, and when you did, and da da da, right? So without doing that, literally pointing the finger at me, this is what's happened in my past.
And because of that, I do show up with a little extra anxiety.
I do show up not feeling safe.
It's, those things are difficult for me.
And I'm just wondering if you can help me through that as we go along this process.
I think their response is going to be so indicative of their care, and so if their response to that does not match up with what you were hoping, you should change providers.
Like, it is really important that you have someone that you can disclose really sensitive information and feel safe and heard after that.
100%.
100%.
100%.
100%.
Yeah, that's a very honest and simple disclosure that should warrant a very specific response.
And if you don't get that response, this isn't the person for you.
Okay, tell us what that response should look like.
I have what I hope a provider would say to me.
What, what should a provider, you know, say or do? First, thank you so much for sharing that with me.
We got to start there.
So this person took a chance to disclose this sensitive private information that they've been carrying with them.
It's an honor that they trusted us with this.
Thank you for sharing it with me.
That should be first.
That should be first.
Beyond that, I'm so glad that you mentioned this.
Let's talk about ways that we can help make you feel more comfortable.
Can you tell me a little bit more about what your thoughts were? So again, allowing agency.
Allow here's the thing when someone has a history of trauma, agency has been taken from them.
Control has been taken from them.
So they're walking through life, looking for control in any way, looking for ways that they can self assert.
And oftentimes they don't find them because a lot of times their antenna aren't acutely attuned for those opportunities, if I'm being honest, but they are desperately seeking it.
So when someone in authority, like a healthcare provider, says I wonder if you can help me devise a plan for you, or what were you thinking? That is massive, massive, because most of the time in those situations, it's you need to, I need you to, I want you to, by the next time we meet, I need you, I need you, can you, here's your list.
And it, you know, so much is put on the patient.
So much is dictated to the patient, the patient has to do what you without question.
without question and without a lot of information.
So to step back in that instance and say, can you tell me what you were needing, what you wanted or what might feel appropriate? You know what? All we as a provider, let's at least listen, whether it's feasible and right.
They could say anything.
Well, I needed Beyonce to be here and sing in concert on the delivery date.
Okay, it sounds like you enjoy Beyonce, I wonder if we can get a CD to play, right? I doubt we can get her to come here for the delivery date, but it sounds like music is something that helps you feel calm.
Just listen, listen, and be willing to collaborate and co create the experience that this individual is seeking, that this individual needs, that this individual warrants in order to feel safe.
It actually doesn't feel like that big of an ask when you ask it, but then when you look inside our hospitals, you're like, wow, this is a humongous ask.
Right? It seems so wild and out there, even though it's something so small and tiny and it seems wild and out there because the system.
Hasn't conditioned us to show up like this in those spaces.
So I was like, well, no one's can, can I, no, one's ever said that I could, I just go and I wait for them to write me something down on a piece of paper that I then take and take that to someplace else and so on and so forth.
The idea that we can make requests of our healthcare providers is like, Mind blown.
Man, that's too bad because.
Yeah, it's it's just like a basic right that is that's like the bottom line care when it comes to medicine And it's really it is so sad that so many people are like don't know that they have that right? That's too bad Man, okay, I guess my next question is around our partners.
Is there anything specific that you can think about in terms of preparing our partner for birth? I was going to ask about birth trauma, but maybe we'll cover that in a minute.
But for birth specifically, what can we do to prepare our partner in terms of mirror neurons? Okay.
So we're going to talk a little bit about mirror neurons.
So just as a partner, knowing that you have lots of power in the Outcomes of the birth and in the experience of the birthing person, you have so much power, so much power.
So just knowing that is massive because now it's, what do you want to do with that power? Knowing that you do have the ability to shift the outcome, shift the space, shift the environment.
What is it that you want to do with that? Understanding that what you do.
With your body and How you choose to attune to your partner during the birth process can be incredibly reparative restorative for that birthing person, and it can create a sense of safety, even if there's chaos.
In the room, what's happening with these two individuals can absolutely feel it can make that birthing person feel a little bit siloed in this nice bubble that they've got between the two of them.
So as the partner know you know, if there are Spiritual practices that are important to the birthing person, be ready to pull those out and engage in those and help facilitate those with a birthing person.
If there's music, be ready to play particular music, sing particular songs for the birthing person.
If there's a massage, that's been helpful.
Be ready to engage in that if there's, and the thing is.
Initiating this so that the birthing person has something to attune to, has something to ground to because there's a lot going on in the space.
So the partner can be that single person that grounds the birthing person in their experience if no one else does, the partner can be the person to initiate that sense of safety and initiate that sense of grounding.
So having a thoughtful, mindful and full understanding of what the birthing person wants in terms of their labor experience and being willing.
Even in the face of anxiety, even in the face of heightened emotions, even in the face of we didn't plan for that, being able to sort of go back to what the two of you had discussed previously and being able to initiate that.
It's like You know, I think of the military and I think of folks with a lot of martial arts training and martial arts is really good about teaching their students that we're, we're not learning these.
Tactics so that we can do harm to others.
We're learning these tactics so that we can protect ourselves and protect our families if the need ever arises.
But the training is such that we're going to do this when there's no threat, we're going to do this drill time and time and time and time again so that when threat arrives, it's like boom, boom, boom.
Boom, boom, boom.
It's why the military are able to be efficient in the threat of danger.
It's why skilled martial artists are able to be efficient in the threat of danger.
So practicing with the birthing person, you know, all of these things that are important to them will be an important part.
Of planning for sort of like the real day, the real performance because things will come up that were unexpected, things will come up that weren't sort of like in the plan, in the playbook and that partner being able to still stand firm on what they previously discussed and know that even if it's They have to start with a communication, word choice, tone of voice, will help to decrease anxiety for the birthing person.
If they're trying to find their footing, like, oh my gosh, this is happening, that is happening, da da da, this, oh my, what, what do I, like, that eye to eye, con, that face to face, eye to eye contact is the place to start.
To help decrease the anxiety for that birthing person so that they have something to like hold on to in that moment.
I always picture, you know, as we all learn about the synopsis, we see like the lightning bolts, you know, as they're like talking to one another.
That is what I am picturing, but I'm picturing theirs on the fritz.
And if you can just get in front of the person giving birth, you sit down in front of them, relax your body.
Tell them to look you in the eye.
Do some deep breaths.
Maybe you put your hands on their shoulders and press their shoulders down.
Give them some sensory input.
Their body, you will notice, will naturally kind of relax.
That's, that's what I'm picturing.
Like, it's just so powerful and you don't really have to do very much.
What you just described is like step one for every single paramedic, regardless of the call that they get.
That's exactly what they do.
Okay, I need you to calm down.
I need you to breathe, take some deep breaths.
That is exactly what they do.
That is exactly what they do.
Every single call, regardless of the call.
And they're initiating that from themselves to that individual that they're responding to, so that, that Is what they attune to, and then they can proceed to, okay, really dissecting whatever the situation is.
But yeah, just that, just that in and of itself is incredibly powerful.
So just having one person who can actually kind of energetically take control of that room and help that birthing person ground themselves and, and attune to them is almost like a protective factor, right? So, if you have a doula and you have a partner, now you've got at least two people that you know you've trained and you've shared your stuff with, and You know, chances are we get a nurse that's trained.
A lot of nurses now are really trauma informed, depending on where you are in the country.
And then providers, unfortunately, I think, are still pretty hit or miss when it comes to being trauma informed, but you can see how you can stack the, the odds in your favor in, you know, if, Do a little care.
It's accessible and depending on how trauma informed the medical staff is in your area.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
All we need is one.
Anything more than one is like gravy.
But all, all we need.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
This has, I'm just like.
My body is like tingling.
I feel so Jazed up for this conversation.
This has been so informative.
And I think so many people who already have birth trauma are feeling very validated because I think, unfortunately, while it came after their birth trauma already occurred, I think it has really shown them Possibly some insights into what happened in their birth, whether it be, you know, within their nervous system or the nervous system of the people around them.
And then for the people who are pregnant and listening, I think that they got some really great information on how they can truly take control of their birth experience.
How they can really be kind of that, Energetic anchor and and they can do the work to train at least one other person because like you said it only takes one okay, is there anything else that you want to leave us with in terms of mirror neurons and labor or pregnancy and and You know birth trauma any of it Yes, just to hit home, just to hit home.
So providers working in labor and delivery, you have the power to elicit ideal help promoting actions and behaviors from the birthing person by first yourself being willing to be purposeful with your choice of words, with your tone of voice, by being willing to engage in the action yourself.
Allowing the birthing person to naturally mirror and match the behavior that you want to elicit from them.
Providers have the opportunity to create the environment that promotes healthy birth outcomes just by using mirror neurons, right? We can't see them, but they are at work.
They have the power to shift the energy of the space by being intentional with your actions, by connecting with the birthing person, by connecting with other people in that birthing room.
It requires providers to be centered.
It requires them to be balanced.
It requires that because the birthing person.
won't walk into the space centered in balance necessarily, or they won't be able to maintain that centeredness in that balance because of what is going on with the prefrontal cortex.
And then lastly, which this is something that I love, as I mentioned previously, when a person gives kindness to another person, the giver receives a helper's high.
That can be used to help mitigate burnout among healthcare professionals, like it's a positive feedback loop and you can you can benefit from that.
Why not? Yeah, that is so sweet.
I do think that.
That burnout is impacting things so much more than I think anybody really realizes.
I think providers are you know, hesitant to believe it.
And I think nurses are really doing the best that they can with the tools that they have.
And it's just, it's hard on them.
And I think patients don't realize it either.
And so it can feel kind of personal when a lot of times it's not.
It's just, being a nurse is really hard or being a doctor is really hard.
Being a patient is really hard too, though.
I'm not dismissing being a patient.
It's just really hard.
It is hard.
Okay? Being a human in 2020 is hard.
It's kind of hard.
It is just a hard thing to do.
Oh my goodness.
Exactly.
Dr.
Jaz, this has been so much fun and so informative.
I feel just My wheels are turning, but I also feel validated in things that I've done as a doula, and I feel really empowered to take this information and help get it to more ears in both families and kind of the medical system.
So thank you so much for being here.
If there were people in the audience who wanted to connect with you and ask you questions or learn more about your stuff, where can they do that? How can they connect with you? Easiest would probably be Instagram, and I am dr.
jazrobbins on Instagram, and Jaz just has one z.
Though I am beautiful like the music, just one seat.
Oh my goodness.
I love it.
All right.
Well, thank you very, very much for being here.
Listeners, I will see you next week.
If you're listening on the podcast, go hop over to YouTube.
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We will see you next week.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you so much for tuning in today.
I love hanging out with you, and it is an honor to be your go-to gal when it comes to preparing for your baby.
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I'm Hei and this is the Birth Launch podcast.