Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / AI in Angel Investing: Carsten Kraus's DACH Playbook
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.080 <v Music> 00:00:20.501 --> 00:00:24.041 <v Speaker0>Hello and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from Celebrate.io, 00:00:24.201 --> 00:00:27.681 <v Speaker0>your startup podcast, YouTube blog and internet radio station from Germany. 00:00:27.881 --> 00:00:32.621 <v Speaker0>Today, I bring you the second interview with Carsten, the current Business Angel 00:00:32.621 --> 00:00:34.941 <v Speaker0>of the Year for Germany. Hey, Carsten, how are you doing? 00:00:35.641 --> 00:00:39.761 <v Speaker1>Yes, I'm fine here in Zanzibar at the moment. I'm on holiday still. 00:00:40.541 --> 00:00:46.441 <v Speaker0>Yes, we do have a little game going on if you break into sweats before the end 00:00:46.441 --> 00:00:50.281 <v Speaker0>of the interview because you had to turn off the air conditioning. 00:00:50.921 --> 00:00:53.921 <v Speaker0>For this interview. So it'll be interesting. 00:00:54.881 --> 00:00:59.421 <v Speaker0>We may tell our audience that you're the Business Angel of the Year, 00:00:59.441 --> 00:01:02.981 <v Speaker0>selected by BANT, the German Business Angel Association. 00:01:03.821 --> 00:01:07.501 <v Speaker0>And they're usually elected, I do believe, in October and November. 00:01:07.761 --> 00:01:15.441 <v Speaker0>And the special thing about it is that they are awarded on the recommendation 00:01:15.441 --> 00:01:17.101 <v Speaker0>of the startups you invest in. 00:01:18.581 --> 00:01:25.901 <v Speaker1>Yes, and also the Minister of Economy of Germany is head of the jury. 00:01:26.881 --> 00:01:31.841 <v Speaker0>Ah, I see. Which will be subject to change soon. 00:01:32.441 --> 00:01:32.941 <v Speaker1>Yes. 00:01:34.461 --> 00:01:40.401 <v Speaker0>Okay, I see. We already talked about in the other interview that you're a serial 00:01:40.401 --> 00:01:43.821 <v Speaker0>entrepreneur yourself, I love that you currently run Casablanca.ai, 00:01:44.041 --> 00:01:48.201 <v Speaker0>which everybody who's watching this can see how this is working here. 00:01:48.381 --> 00:01:54.501 <v Speaker0>And I want to get straight into your investments philosophy and startup selection, 00:01:54.521 --> 00:01:59.661 <v Speaker0>because you told me when we talked about this, you get up to 10 pitches a week. 00:01:59.801 --> 00:02:03.101 <v Speaker0>How do you cut through the noise and identify opportunities? 00:02:04.459 --> 00:02:07.879 <v Speaker1>Yeah, that's a very good question, and it's not so easy because, 00:02:08.179 --> 00:02:13.079 <v Speaker1>of course, you always fear missing the one hidden gem that becomes the next 00:02:13.079 --> 00:02:17.819 <v Speaker1>Facebook or Microsoft or OpenAI or whatever. 00:02:19.979 --> 00:02:27.559 <v Speaker1>And so what do we do? We have own AI that filters through the pitch decks and 00:02:27.559 --> 00:02:29.359 <v Speaker1>takes out some red flags. 00:02:30.179 --> 00:02:34.259 <v Speaker1>So I at least annotate some red flags so that we easily identify this without 00:02:34.259 --> 00:02:36.899 <v Speaker1>going through the 45 pages of some pitch decks. 00:02:38.459 --> 00:02:43.479 <v Speaker1>So there are some things in there like nobody has had any experience in sales 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:51.639 <v Speaker1>before or they are emphasizing technology but they don't have patterns and it 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:53.339 <v Speaker1>seems that it's not patentable. 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:57.959 <v Speaker1>So there are some things where we say it's probably not interesting to take 00:02:57.959 --> 00:03:00.199 <v Speaker1>any deeper look at the startup. 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:10.539 <v Speaker1>And so this is just the first filter. It tells about half of the teams that 00:03:10.539 --> 00:03:11.959 <v Speaker1>probably they're not so interesting. 00:03:12.259 --> 00:03:16.879 <v Speaker1>So depending on the time my people have, so I have one and a half people on 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:24.459 <v Speaker1>the investment side, Roxanne and Christoph, and so they take a deeper look only 00:03:24.459 --> 00:03:26.999 <v Speaker1>at those which were not red flagged by the AI. 00:03:28.659 --> 00:03:33.559 <v Speaker1>So the AI just principally takes the pitch deck and goes through some analysis, 00:03:33.559 --> 00:03:40.699 <v Speaker1>also puts a lot of information into a kind of a database so that we can later 00:03:40.699 --> 00:03:42.459 <v Speaker1>on analyze all the startups. 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.519 <v Speaker1>And so if we miss something which turns out to be very good, 00:03:46.699 --> 00:03:52.939 <v Speaker1>we learn for the next time. So after two years or so when the startup turns out to be a high flyer. 00:03:54.259 --> 00:04:01.319 <v Speaker0>I see. I'm wondering, since when do you start utilizing AI in this way? 00:04:03.619 --> 00:04:05.399 <v Speaker1>Somewhere last year, I think. 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:12.039 <v Speaker1>So we started programming something in, I think, April or so, 00:04:12.259 --> 00:04:13.779 <v Speaker1>and worked then in summer. 00:04:13.939 --> 00:04:17.919 <v Speaker1>And we want to do more, but right now I have more other projects. 00:04:17.919 --> 00:04:25.219 <v Speaker1>So I didn't program it, but I gave the idea what to do to somebody in my team. 00:04:25.659 --> 00:04:30.179 <v Speaker1>And not in the investment team, somewhere else in my company, in my company group. 00:04:31.359 --> 00:04:34.799 <v Speaker1>And they just programmed this. 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:37.639 <v Speaker0>I see. 00:04:38.179 --> 00:04:42.339 <v Speaker1>It's mainly an LLM that does the analysis, but you have to do some things around 00:04:42.339 --> 00:04:48.059 <v Speaker1>to convert the PDF to set up a database and those things. 00:04:49.459 --> 00:04:53.959 <v Speaker0>You focus more on a startup's technology than its founding team. 00:04:54.619 --> 00:04:58.059 <v Speaker0>Why? And have you ever been wrong with this approach? 00:04:58.599 --> 00:05:03.059 <v Speaker0>I personally believe a lot of people are saying they're just focusing on the 00:05:03.059 --> 00:05:08.359 <v Speaker0>team because they want to seek consultancy A, B, or C. or university C, D, and E. 00:05:08.479 --> 00:05:13.139 <v Speaker0>That's basically when they get interested in invest or worked at a startup A to Z. 00:05:13.599 --> 00:05:19.239 <v Speaker1>Right. So when they focus on technology, it normally means that they look, 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:25.199 <v Speaker1>if one of the founders was working at one of the, Batman is, I think, the new thing. 00:05:25.359 --> 00:05:28.299 <v Speaker1>So the Magnificent Eight. 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:34.219 <v Speaker1>And if one of them worked as a software developer there, then probably the program 00:05:34.219 --> 00:05:39.479 <v Speaker1>is technically good. or the startup is technically well set up. 00:05:39.599 --> 00:05:41.779 <v Speaker1>That's what most investors estimate. 00:05:42.019 --> 00:05:46.279 <v Speaker1>The thing is that most investors come from a financial background and not from a tech background. 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:54.159 <v Speaker1>So it's much easier for them to analyze financials or teams and take a look 00:05:54.159 --> 00:06:00.339 <v Speaker1>at the founders rather than really telling if this technology is a game changer, 00:06:00.339 --> 00:06:02.959 <v Speaker1>is really something that is – 00:06:04.837 --> 00:06:10.297 <v Speaker1>Really ahead of the competition or if it's just another startup doing something 00:06:10.297 --> 00:06:14.177 <v Speaker1>with a very good idea but not with great tech in the background. 00:06:14.437 --> 00:06:20.317 <v Speaker1>And I'm one of the few ones who are coming from tech and can thus tell something about this part. 00:06:20.417 --> 00:06:27.537 <v Speaker1>So I think this is probably one of my USPs here that I can take a deeper look 00:06:27.537 --> 00:06:29.157 <v Speaker1>into technology. Of course, my 00:06:29.157 --> 00:06:34.117 <v Speaker1>team first analyzes just these standard questions like, is the team good? 00:06:34.637 --> 00:06:37.997 <v Speaker1>Is the plan good? Is the market big enough? 00:06:38.937 --> 00:06:44.637 <v Speaker1>So generally we say we invest in a total addressable market over 1 billion. 00:06:44.877 --> 00:06:50.037 <v Speaker1>So if it's only 100 million, normally we just don't take a closer look. 00:06:50.217 --> 00:06:53.177 <v Speaker1>That's one of the things that our AI also tries to find out. 00:06:54.877 --> 00:06:58.777 <v Speaker1>And that's something that the AI and the team already challenge. 00:06:59.117 --> 00:07:04.057 <v Speaker1>And then when I talk with the founders, I'm also talking about technology. 00:07:04.217 --> 00:07:11.077 <v Speaker1>Of course, if the founding team would be like not somebody I would like to work 00:07:11.077 --> 00:07:13.277 <v Speaker1>with, then we would also not invest. 00:07:16.017 --> 00:07:22.177 <v Speaker1>And of course, technology is not everything, but then it's not that you have to get every good deal. 00:07:23.557 --> 00:07:26.457 <v Speaker1>Just you have to make sure that many of the deals you get 00:07:26.457 --> 00:07:29.757 <v Speaker1>are good but yeah so 00:07:29.757 --> 00:07:32.517 <v Speaker1>you will always miss out on some deals so 00:07:32.517 --> 00:07:35.417 <v Speaker1>i i had a opportunity to invest very very 00:07:35.417 --> 00:07:38.737 <v Speaker1>early in a startup started by two 00:07:38.737 --> 00:07:43.577 <v Speaker1>pupils they were below 18 years old and 00:07:43.577 --> 00:07:47.037 <v Speaker1>they were starting the company when they became 18 but they were preparing for 00:07:47.037 --> 00:07:53.657 <v Speaker1>it and i said you need two pivots one technically and one the idea is great 00:07:53.657 --> 00:07:59.037 <v Speaker1>but technically and also from the business model, both will not work. 00:08:06.172 --> 00:08:10.212 <v Speaker0>How did they react, given that they're not very old? 00:08:10.632 --> 00:08:12.892 <v Speaker1>No, the thing is, I said, I'm still investing. 00:08:16.292 --> 00:08:21.072 <v Speaker1>But they offered me a low valuation basis, and I said, I'm going to do this 00:08:21.072 --> 00:08:25.552 <v Speaker1>with you, and I think you will do fine, because the technical guy was very open 00:08:25.552 --> 00:08:31.132 <v Speaker1>to learning, and he was already quite great, but just some things he wanted to do would not work. 00:08:32.412 --> 00:08:37.172 <v Speaker1>And from the business model, it would also not work. I calculated this in Excel. 00:08:37.832 --> 00:08:44.112 <v Speaker1>But the CEO also had a very, he was very far for a 17 year old. So I thought I invest. 00:08:44.452 --> 00:08:52.272 <v Speaker1>And then the problem was that we had an appointment at the notary and that was in Stuttgart. 00:08:52.692 --> 00:08:58.192 <v Speaker1>And I had an appointment in the evening with a politician in Berlin, 00:08:58.452 --> 00:09:00.252 <v Speaker1>a member of the parliament. 00:09:00.732 --> 00:09:07.332 <v Speaker1>And the notary called and said, we need to shift this by one hour because my 00:09:07.332 --> 00:09:08.952 <v Speaker1>previous case takes longer. 00:09:09.532 --> 00:09:13.532 <v Speaker1>And I said, then I cannot get my flight and I cannot go on the meeting with a politician. 00:09:14.072 --> 00:09:17.712 <v Speaker1>So I will have to cancel today. Let's find another appointment next week. 00:09:17.792 --> 00:09:20.632 <v Speaker1>And we didn't find it next week. We didn't find it the week after. 00:09:20.872 --> 00:09:23.692 <v Speaker1>And after about four weeks, they came back to me. 00:09:25.972 --> 00:09:30.512 <v Speaker1>We had an appointment in four weeks or so. but they said now our valuation is 00:09:30.512 --> 00:09:35.572 <v Speaker1>more than twice what we had before because we have found some other investors who wanted to invest. 00:09:37.072 --> 00:09:42.972 <v Speaker1>And then I said for two pivots, I'm not going to do it, not going to do it at that valuation. 00:09:44.552 --> 00:09:51.092 <v Speaker1>And we still discussed a bit but did not agree. And what happened is they started 00:09:51.092 --> 00:09:55.652 <v Speaker1>this and they did the first pivot very soon And then they got, 00:09:55.812 --> 00:10:03.032 <v Speaker1>I think, 2 million on a 10 million basis after less than six months. 00:10:04.217 --> 00:10:09.057 <v Speaker1>And that was quite a lot already because we were far lower in our valuation before. 00:10:10.077 --> 00:10:13.157 <v Speaker1>And I'm not so sure how much they finance. 00:10:13.277 --> 00:10:18.217 <v Speaker1>I think they have taken up something like 20 million already or so and are doing very well. 00:10:18.917 --> 00:10:23.677 <v Speaker1>So I did wrong there because I thought with the two pivots necessary, 00:10:23.957 --> 00:10:29.837 <v Speaker1>the new valuation is not appropriate because the risk is still high. 00:10:29.837 --> 00:10:36.337 <v Speaker1>Two pivots necessary and the valuation is not ultra low as it was before just not very high yet 00:10:38.497 --> 00:10:43.717 <v Speaker1>And I was definitely wrong there the other 00:10:43.717 --> 00:10:46.697 <v Speaker1>thing is yes I sometimes I just 00:10:46.697 --> 00:10:49.637 <v Speaker1>sometimes make mistakes in investing of course and that happens to 00:10:49.637 --> 00:10:52.997 <v Speaker1>everyone and there can be two sides of mistakes so one 00:10:52.997 --> 00:10:55.797 <v Speaker1>is you have missed the chance and the other thing 00:10:55.797 --> 00:11:00.037 <v Speaker1>is you invest in a company where where it doesn't pay off and the company does 00:11:00.037 --> 00:11:06.357 <v Speaker1>not do well and I also had this in the past I invested in a company that just 00:11:06.357 --> 00:11:14.297 <v Speaker1>didn't want to grow they were happy after they were slightly profitable and still at a very low level 00:11:15.397 --> 00:11:20.617 <v Speaker1>and yes we can run the company now we don't need any more investors so what's 00:11:20.617 --> 00:11:26.877 <v Speaker1>the problem and that that's also not so good so so even if the company doesn't go broke, 00:11:27.117 --> 00:11:31.077 <v Speaker1>it might still not, by far, not pay off for the investor. 00:11:33.137 --> 00:11:39.057 <v Speaker0>Talking about investor approach here, what is for you a hard no or a red flag 00:11:39.057 --> 00:11:41.257 <v Speaker0>when you are evaluating the startup pitch? 00:11:42.717 --> 00:11:46.737 <v Speaker1>So one is if I can't work with the company, that's a hard no. 00:11:47.317 --> 00:11:54.497 <v Speaker1>Also, if sometimes they think they have invented something totally new and I find out that, 00:11:55.277 --> 00:12:01.537 <v Speaker1>that what the company invented is already there or very easy to reproduce and 00:12:01.537 --> 00:12:03.417 <v Speaker1>you can't get a patent for it. 00:12:05.450 --> 00:12:10.230 <v Speaker1>So that's normally a red flag for me. So, for example, I had somebody with an 00:12:10.230 --> 00:12:16.010 <v Speaker1>invention in chemistry, and they would not tell me what it actually was. 00:12:16.190 --> 00:12:19.610 <v Speaker1>So actually, they had a discovery in chemistry. That's what they told me. 00:12:21.330 --> 00:12:26.970 <v Speaker1>And when they finally told me after I signed a hard NDA and lots of things, 00:12:28.170 --> 00:12:34.210 <v Speaker1>I found out in less than five minutes that the effect was already known. 00:12:34.210 --> 00:12:37.490 <v Speaker1>But under a different name with 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:40.330 <v Speaker1>a slightly different approach but it didn't make any 00:12:40.330 --> 00:12:44.090 <v Speaker1>difference so it was definitely existing so that 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:49.970 <v Speaker1>that's a very hard no so what else is a hard no so I'm not so much on this single 00:12:49.970 --> 00:12:54.630 <v Speaker1>founder doesn't work so single founder can work well I don't have a big problem 00:12:54.630 --> 00:12:59.130 <v Speaker1>with that I know it for myself so I started multiple companies normally as a 00:12:59.130 --> 00:13:03.770 <v Speaker1>single founder in the beginning and then took up some people later, but, um, 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:08.150 <v Speaker1>uh, fact find that I actually grew to a hundred people without any co-founder. 00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:14.790 <v Speaker1>So, and then, then I hired a COO in order to just get me a bit away from management 00:13:14.790 --> 00:13:16.690 <v Speaker1>and let me go back to innovation again. 00:13:19.197 --> 00:13:25.717 <v Speaker1>Because I don't like management. And this guy really loved management. 00:13:25.977 --> 00:13:31.797 <v Speaker1>He was in a 10 times larger company before at sea level and joined us and just 00:13:31.797 --> 00:13:37.637 <v Speaker1>restructured, reorganized how we worked in terms of how we managed the company. 00:13:39.857 --> 00:13:45.237 <v Speaker0>When we talked before, you told me you have currently a portfolio of 15 investments. 00:13:45.857 --> 00:13:52.837 <v Speaker0>First, my personal understanding is that this is usually a big portfolio for 00:13:52.837 --> 00:13:54.557 <v Speaker0>German business angels, right? 00:13:54.837 --> 00:13:58.857 <v Speaker1>Yeah, for business angels, yes. So there are some people. 00:13:58.977 --> 00:14:05.277 <v Speaker1>I have found it also the frequent angel circle, which is a sub-circle or subgroup 00:14:05.277 --> 00:14:09.117 <v Speaker1>in band in the German business angel network Deutschland. 00:14:10.837 --> 00:14:17.017 <v Speaker1>And we accept people who have done 10 invests in their past so you don't need to hold 10 invests now 00:14:18.097 --> 00:14:23.817 <v Speaker1>even if you have only one or two or so right now and you have already exited 00:14:23.817 --> 00:14:31.417 <v Speaker1>or some have gone broke or so and you have done 10 investments in the past you 00:14:31.417 --> 00:14:36.057 <v Speaker1>can join very very few members of Bund have had 10 investments 00:14:36.777 --> 00:14:40.977 <v Speaker1>So, I don't know how many there are in the Business Engine Network Deutschland 00:14:40.977 --> 00:14:48.957 <v Speaker1>who could qualify but it's probably 100 or not so much more and 34 are in our frequent angel circle. 00:14:49.237 --> 00:14:52.617 <v Speaker1>Actually the one with the most investments has done more than 100 investments. 00:14:53.037 --> 00:14:58.297 <v Speaker1>We already have one with 75 who was also nominated for Business Engine of the 00:14:58.297 --> 00:15:04.037 <v Speaker1>Year and we have one more with more than 50 investments and all of those investments. 00:15:04.037 --> 00:15:08.097 <v Speaker1>And so we're talking about investments of 50 K euros and up. 00:15:08.197 --> 00:15:12.057 <v Speaker1>We're not talking about people who are just, um, by a bit by a business end 00:15:12.057 --> 00:15:17.097 <v Speaker1>of the club or so diversify their money and invest 10,000 euros each in 50 startups. 00:15:17.417 --> 00:15:19.597 <v Speaker1>So, um, so it's, um. 00:15:21.151 --> 00:15:26.091 <v Speaker1>Um, so, uh, and we have one who has done also about 20 investments, 00:15:26.251 --> 00:15:28.911 <v Speaker1>but his typical, uh, investment is 1 million. 00:15:30.111 --> 00:15:35.431 <v Speaker1>Um, so he doesn't start with 1 million. He normally starts with 250, 250 K. 00:15:36.031 --> 00:15:42.491 <v Speaker1>Um, but, um, but over time he grows in the companies and sometimes he also starts with a million. 00:15:43.031 --> 00:15:46.551 <v Speaker1>Um, so, uh, there are these people. Um, 00:15:48.011 --> 00:15:52.531 <v Speaker1>and, um, so in the frequent angel circle, I'm rather one of the smaller investors, 00:15:52.531 --> 00:15:57.211 <v Speaker1>but as compared to the typical business angel, I would say, yes, 00:15:57.291 --> 00:15:58.511 <v Speaker1>this is quite a portfolio. 00:15:59.491 --> 00:16:03.831 <v Speaker1>So I've done 21 investments, 15 are still active. 00:16:04.171 --> 00:16:12.851 <v Speaker0>Still active. Exactly. And I was wondering, which one are you most excited about right now and why? 00:16:12.851 --> 00:16:15.631 <v Speaker1>Ah that's that's actually quite a number 00:16:15.631 --> 00:16:18.911 <v Speaker1>of really interesting investments so um so i'm i'm 00:16:18.911 --> 00:16:22.091 <v Speaker1>very positive for valent that's a london investment 00:16:22.091 --> 00:16:30.691 <v Speaker1>i made so outside germany in in the uk um valent v-a-l-e-n-t um they um they 00:16:30.691 --> 00:16:37.091 <v Speaker1>detect social media attacks so you know sometimes a company has a negative social 00:16:37.091 --> 00:16:39.311 <v Speaker1>media, and that's okay if it's natural. 00:16:39.651 --> 00:16:47.351 <v Speaker1>But sometimes a competitor actively attacks the company on social media. 00:16:47.531 --> 00:16:49.531 <v Speaker1>It also happens in politics. 00:16:52.082 --> 00:17:02.442 <v Speaker1>And Valent has a number of customers who are big and who have been under or 00:17:02.442 --> 00:17:09.302 <v Speaker1>who were under social media attack from competitors or political opposing people. 00:17:09.862 --> 00:17:15.422 <v Speaker1>So that means normally there is some truth in the story. 00:17:15.702 --> 00:17:20.242 <v Speaker1>So something has gone wrong with something. So like disappointed one customer 00:17:20.242 --> 00:17:26.182 <v Speaker1>or so, and an attack normally means that somebody takes this story and makes 00:17:26.182 --> 00:17:28.942 <v Speaker1>it huge as opposed to the positive stories. 00:17:30.162 --> 00:17:35.942 <v Speaker1>And this happens. This is not just something that could happen, but it does happen. 00:17:36.162 --> 00:17:43.182 <v Speaker1>There are malevolent people who actively attack their competitors in social media. 00:17:44.362 --> 00:17:51.182 <v Speaker1>And Valent detects this with AI. And they have a very strong AI team, I can tell this. 00:17:51.782 --> 00:17:56.662 <v Speaker0>Actually, when one startup starts to attack another one on social media, 00:17:56.922 --> 00:17:59.762 <v Speaker0>I would be wondering, don't you have anything else to do? 00:18:01.542 --> 00:18:04.802 <v Speaker1>Yes, so there are a number of countermeasures you can do. 00:18:05.962 --> 00:18:10.722 <v Speaker1>And that's a project that Valen can do that cannot be done automatically yet. 00:18:11.222 --> 00:18:12.702 <v Speaker1>So some things are legal. 00:18:13.222 --> 00:18:16.822 <v Speaker1>So you can, if you find out, if the first thing is you try to find out who is 00:18:16.822 --> 00:18:22.162 <v Speaker1>behind it, But if they're really good, they somehow hide it behind a Russian group or something. 00:18:24.222 --> 00:18:28.662 <v Speaker1>But sometimes they can find out who is attacking or who is behind it. 00:18:30.504 --> 00:18:34.884 <v Speaker1>And then there are other measures like how do you work with the press because 00:18:34.884 --> 00:18:39.184 <v Speaker1>normally then the press takes up this and you have to do some countermeasures there. 00:18:41.084 --> 00:18:45.124 <v Speaker1>And how do you deal with the social media and so on. I'm not an expert for that. 00:18:45.244 --> 00:18:51.724 <v Speaker1>So you have to interview Veiland the next time in order to talk about this topic. 00:18:51.904 --> 00:18:58.364 <v Speaker1>But I think it's a great company and a former investigative BBC journalist is 00:18:58.364 --> 00:18:59.384 <v Speaker1>part of the founding team. 00:18:59.964 --> 00:19:04.464 <v Speaker1>But they're also really great in AI. So I admire what they do. 00:19:04.984 --> 00:19:09.464 <v Speaker1>So that's one of the startups. I can tell about more if you want to talk about more startups. 00:19:10.044 --> 00:19:15.444 <v Speaker0>I do have still a lot of questions for you, and we're already running 20 minutes of recording. 00:19:17.024 --> 00:19:21.424 <v Speaker0>Yeah, and keep in mind that the AC is not running right now. 00:19:22.884 --> 00:19:29.284 <v Speaker0>I was wondering what one startup investment, that, can you name one that completely 00:19:29.284 --> 00:19:31.504 <v Speaker0>surprised you with how fast they scaled? 00:19:32.844 --> 00:19:40.504 <v Speaker1>I have one where I was wondering how, I was astonished how quickly everything went well. 00:19:41.104 --> 00:19:46.424 <v Speaker1>I have one startup, I cannot name it if I tell more about it because we are 00:19:46.424 --> 00:19:51.064 <v Speaker1>under a, not too hard, but still I'm the NDA with a buyer. 00:19:52.024 --> 00:19:56.244 <v Speaker1>So, but I invested in a hardware company. which 00:19:56.244 --> 00:20:02.424 <v Speaker1>had a lot of innovation and I was fascinated by the innovation and the hardware 00:20:02.424 --> 00:20:07.544 <v Speaker1>company was they showed me their very first prototype of one part of the of 00:20:07.544 --> 00:20:14.884 <v Speaker1>the hardware they were building and so what happened was 00:20:16.893 --> 00:20:23.873 <v Speaker1>They took in investors, they tried to bootstrap and then found out that it will 00:20:23.873 --> 00:20:26.453 <v Speaker1>not be sufficient. They had some money, but not enough. 00:20:27.333 --> 00:20:31.613 <v Speaker1>And then they took in investors and I was one of the people that they asked 00:20:31.613 --> 00:20:37.633 <v Speaker1>because of AI, because they thought AI will play a big role also in their future product. 00:20:38.333 --> 00:20:43.493 <v Speaker1>And so they had the very, very first prototype of something where you need hundreds 00:20:43.493 --> 00:20:45.393 <v Speaker1>of thousands of in big companies. 00:20:46.553 --> 00:20:51.473 <v Speaker1>And it did not work stand alone. You needed some other components also and they just had this one thing. 00:20:51.633 --> 00:20:54.993 <v Speaker1>But I was fascinated by the height of the innovation they built. 00:20:56.413 --> 00:21:02.993 <v Speaker1>Then it took only 18 months until they sold to a big company. 00:21:03.153 --> 00:21:08.853 <v Speaker1>They were still like, I don't know, minimum one and a half years pre-seed, 00:21:08.953 --> 00:21:15.493 <v Speaker1>so pre-revenue. So definitely what they had built then was a fully working prototype, 00:21:15.493 --> 00:21:16.993 <v Speaker1>but in a very small scale. 00:21:18.353 --> 00:21:25.933 <v Speaker1>So like when you say I'm automating, let's say, a car manufacturing factory, 00:21:27.173 --> 00:21:34.053 <v Speaker1>and you just demonstrate one robot which screws in the screws or something at one place. 00:21:34.053 --> 00:21:39.533 <v Speaker1>So they could show a smaller part of everything, but you could see that this 00:21:39.533 --> 00:21:42.693 <v Speaker1>is going to change the world in this special aspect. 00:21:43.813 --> 00:21:49.773 <v Speaker1>And then they already sold. So that went very fast, and it was still far beyond 00:21:49.773 --> 00:21:52.793 <v Speaker1>before they could sell the product to any customer. 00:21:53.393 --> 00:21:57.393 <v Speaker1>And we thought that we have, in the current situation, we thought that we have 00:21:57.393 --> 00:22:03.953 <v Speaker1>to have the first customer. and we tried to get some customer who signed LOI 00:22:03.953 --> 00:22:06.333 <v Speaker1>or so, which was also very difficult in the current situation. 00:22:06.693 --> 00:22:13.093 <v Speaker1>But actually they had some inquiries from big companies who wanted to invest 00:22:13.093 --> 00:22:14.273 <v Speaker1>in them or rather buy them. 00:22:18.193 --> 00:22:23.053 <v Speaker1>And we went fast with one of them. And so after only 18 months, 00:22:23.253 --> 00:22:31.173 <v Speaker1>I could sell my shares again and was very happy with the multiple I got. 00:22:33.433 --> 00:22:37.273 <v Speaker0>You learned a lot when you do so many startup investments. 00:22:37.573 --> 00:22:42.353 <v Speaker0>I was wondering, what was one of the counterintuitive lessons you learned? 00:22:42.353 --> 00:22:47.813 <v Speaker0>You said you're still open to invest in single-founder companies and not teams. 00:22:48.693 --> 00:22:50.013 <v Speaker0>What else did you learn? 00:22:51.733 --> 00:22:57.933 <v Speaker1>Oh, that's a difficult question. Maybe you have to skip that if something was 00:22:57.933 --> 00:23:01.393 <v Speaker1>counterintuitive and I still had a gut feeling, you mean, kind of, right? 00:23:01.613 --> 00:23:08.553 <v Speaker1>So it's not like normally you do this, but in this case, I'm going for it. Yeah. 00:23:12.662 --> 00:23:16.602 <v Speaker1>But nothing comes to my mind at this moment. Sorry. So for counterintuitive 00:23:16.602 --> 00:23:19.902 <v Speaker1>investment, or counter-rule investment. 00:23:20.182 --> 00:23:25.082 <v Speaker1>So, I mean, normally what I said about this, so what I said about this hardware 00:23:25.082 --> 00:23:28.682 <v Speaker1>company right now was also normally when you invest in hardware, 00:23:28.842 --> 00:23:31.522 <v Speaker1>you think it takes 10 years until they have an exit. 00:23:31.782 --> 00:23:37.742 <v Speaker1>And in this case, it was not necessary because it was so clear that this is 00:23:37.742 --> 00:23:39.342 <v Speaker1>very disruptive for the industry. 00:23:39.662 --> 00:23:43.222 <v Speaker1>And they were so far ahead of anybody in this field. 00:23:46.362 --> 00:23:56.462 <v Speaker0>I see. When I talk to many successful investors, they do have personal investment thesis or rules. 00:23:56.722 --> 00:24:03.342 <v Speaker0>Do you follow some of them? Do you have some and you follow them before making a deal? 00:24:04.682 --> 00:24:11.202 <v Speaker1>So we have a list of a few things we check, But these are the things that Roxanne 00:24:11.202 --> 00:24:16.782 <v Speaker1>checks when she talks, or some of the AI checks, some Roxanne checks. 00:24:17.162 --> 00:24:24.582 <v Speaker1>And so the general thing is that we are always ready to learn and maybe still 00:24:24.582 --> 00:24:31.622 <v Speaker1>invest if something is not according to our list, 00:24:31.682 --> 00:24:35.322 <v Speaker1>but if some other parts are overwhelmingly good. 00:24:37.716 --> 00:24:42.836 <v Speaker1>So in general, for example, we invest pre-seed. 00:24:42.976 --> 00:24:46.056 <v Speaker1>So that means if the company is already running and just wants to grow, 00:24:46.376 --> 00:24:48.956 <v Speaker1>normally we don't invest. Still, I did this once. 00:24:50.316 --> 00:24:53.996 <v Speaker1>So I invested in a company called Hybrid LiDAR. 00:24:55.436 --> 00:25:00.996 <v Speaker1>And so they're not really running, but they have first customers who have done 00:25:00.996 --> 00:25:04.556 <v Speaker1>tests, runs with them and paid for that and so on. 00:25:05.876 --> 00:25:13.556 <v Speaker1>And but this is already quite a big company and but I thought this innovation 00:25:13.556 --> 00:25:15.636 <v Speaker1>is also very high so I invested also. 00:25:15.876 --> 00:25:24.336 <v Speaker1>I do a new type of LiDAR of the distance measuring which is used for self-driving 00:25:24.336 --> 00:25:30.796 <v Speaker1>cars except by Tesla who is only using cameras but it's also a great application 00:25:30.796 --> 00:25:34.016 <v Speaker1>for manufacturing and robots and everything. 00:25:34.276 --> 00:25:40.856 <v Speaker1>And they have a much higher resolution at a less costly LiDAR device. 00:25:41.276 --> 00:25:45.256 <v Speaker1>And they're currently going to the first prototype. 00:25:45.836 --> 00:25:52.636 <v Speaker1>So not prototype, the first production run. So for the first customer. 00:25:53.396 --> 00:25:57.176 <v Speaker1>I'm preparing for that right now. But they're already quite big. 00:25:57.316 --> 00:25:59.836 <v Speaker1>So normally I don't invest on valuations over 5 million. 00:25:59.836 --> 00:26:03.976 <v Speaker0>Every investor is currently getting giddy when they hear AI, 00:26:04.276 --> 00:26:08.176 <v Speaker0>which was in the past something like blockchain, quick delivery, and so on and forth. 00:26:09.456 --> 00:26:16.336 <v Speaker0>Except for those current technologies, if you could only invest in one emerging 00:26:16.336 --> 00:26:19.916 <v Speaker0>technologies in the next five years, what would it be? 00:26:23.942 --> 00:26:30.162 <v Speaker1>So, half a year ago, I would have said deep reinforcement learning. 00:26:30.522 --> 00:26:31.722 <v Speaker1>So, that's one part of AI. 00:26:32.822 --> 00:26:37.442 <v Speaker1>But it's AI that was underestimated for a long time. 00:26:37.622 --> 00:26:42.322 <v Speaker1>In my prediction, in the beginning of 2024, I said deep RL, deep reinforcement 00:26:42.322 --> 00:26:48.802 <v Speaker1>learning, will do a lot in the coming year, in 2024. 00:26:48.802 --> 00:26:52.342 <v Speaker1>And actually it only did now with DeepSeq, 00:26:53.282 --> 00:26:57.602 <v Speaker1>everybody could see that deep reinforcement learning is still a very important 00:26:57.602 --> 00:27:03.382 <v Speaker1>factor because this was basically the foundation of why they could be much faster 00:27:03.382 --> 00:27:06.022 <v Speaker1>and much better than other approaches in the past. 00:27:07.622 --> 00:27:12.382 <v Speaker1>So it's a combination of this transformer technology of LLMs with this deep 00:27:12.382 --> 00:27:13.182 <v Speaker1>reinforcement learning. 00:27:13.322 --> 00:27:18.582 <v Speaker1>So there was some deep RL also in the previous LLMs, but it had only a minor role. 00:27:18.802 --> 00:27:23.822 <v Speaker1>And now it became part of the core of the innovation of DeepSeek. 00:27:24.902 --> 00:27:30.942 <v Speaker1>So that's what I've said then. And right now, I think what is totally underestimated 00:27:30.942 --> 00:27:34.022 <v Speaker1>is robots, even though they already have some hype. 00:27:34.182 --> 00:27:39.342 <v Speaker1>But I think people cannot see how big the disruption will be in five years. 00:27:39.802 --> 00:27:44.882 <v Speaker0>I actually talked to Jan Lippert, another interview that we just published. 00:27:45.502 --> 00:27:49.802 <v Speaker0>He is Frankfurt-born, even though he was raised in the US. 00:27:50.202 --> 00:27:55.662 <v Speaker0>He is working currently on a company that combines robotics with large language 00:27:55.662 --> 00:27:57.622 <v Speaker0>models, which is also pretty interesting. 00:27:57.802 --> 00:28:01.362 <v Speaker0>And it's something I haven't heard a lot about before. 00:28:02.733 --> 00:28:06.753 <v Speaker1>So definitely you need to combine them if you want to have practical applications 00:28:06.753 --> 00:28:09.713 <v Speaker1>in smaller scale companies. 00:28:09.973 --> 00:28:15.033 <v Speaker1>So in bigger scale companies, when you need like 200 robots doing the same thing 00:28:15.033 --> 00:28:19.713 <v Speaker1>in a factory or so, you can train the robots by other measures. 00:28:20.413 --> 00:28:25.813 <v Speaker1>But if you want them to just take over any kind of small job that helps you, 00:28:26.033 --> 00:28:30.373 <v Speaker1>you need to also be able to give them commands in that national language. 00:28:30.373 --> 00:28:36.053 <v Speaker1>Like when you have them, let's say, at the building site, and it's a helper for the mazen. 00:28:36.933 --> 00:28:43.493 <v Speaker1>So then you want to tell them, like, just hand me over five more of those stones. 00:28:44.273 --> 00:28:47.413 <v Speaker1>Hand me over this tool and so on. 00:28:47.933 --> 00:28:54.093 <v Speaker1>Can you just go downstairs and carry up two more sacks of the cement or something? Yes. 00:28:56.073 --> 00:29:03.613 <v Speaker1>And you want to command them in that way, and you don't want to show them every 00:29:03.613 --> 00:29:07.093 <v Speaker1>step, which is the normal way of learning for the new robots, 00:29:07.213 --> 00:29:09.573 <v Speaker1>so they observe and they copy. 00:29:09.833 --> 00:29:14.293 <v Speaker1>But also for their internal reasoning, for understanding what you're doing, 00:29:14.473 --> 00:29:18.833 <v Speaker1>I think they're also using maybe not large language models, 00:29:19.053 --> 00:29:24.433 <v Speaker1>but the same kind of foundation models with some transformers inside or so who 00:29:24.433 --> 00:29:28.953 <v Speaker1>do represent what the person is doing. 00:29:29.573 --> 00:29:35.433 <v Speaker1>So you can reason what is it that it's doing because you don't go like, 00:29:35.613 --> 00:29:40.793 <v Speaker1>okay, now the hand moves 20 centimeters in that direction, then the fingers grab. 00:29:41.153 --> 00:29:46.293 <v Speaker1>Rather, you want to do something like he's grabbing the tool, 00:29:46.713 --> 00:29:51.373 <v Speaker1>he's taking the tool, putting it to the screw, turning the tool. 00:29:51.373 --> 00:29:53.913 <v Speaker1>So you want it to understand what is happening. 00:29:54.153 --> 00:29:59.493 <v Speaker1>And for that, it already needs some knowledge representation internally. 00:29:59.493 --> 00:30:02.973 <v Speaker1>And that's easier with language, as it seems, than with most other things. 00:30:03.613 --> 00:30:12.673 <v Speaker0>I was smiling when you started to kind of combine this robots with learning, 00:30:12.673 --> 00:30:15.593 <v Speaker0>with what came to mind are the apprenticeship models. 00:30:15.733 --> 00:30:19.713 <v Speaker0>Because if you're an apprentice in Germany, they will play some practical jokes 00:30:19.713 --> 00:30:22.393 <v Speaker0>on you in the start. But I also was a victim of that. 00:30:22.513 --> 00:30:26.853 <v Speaker0>And I was wondering what jokes the people will play with the robots. 00:30:26.993 --> 00:30:28.553 <v Speaker1>Robots, yes, certainly they will. 00:30:28.833 --> 00:30:32.953 <v Speaker1>People will want to play tricks on the robots and then laugh at them. 00:30:33.233 --> 00:30:37.673 <v Speaker0>Yeah, I see. I'm getting a little bit more on the bird's eye view. 00:30:38.073 --> 00:30:43.073 <v Speaker0>What do you think is the biggest advantage that European startup founders have 00:30:43.073 --> 00:30:44.753 <v Speaker0>over Silicon Valley entrepreneurs? 00:30:46.766 --> 00:30:52.586 <v Speaker1>So, you mean the founders in Germany or the small investors in Germany, the business angels? 00:30:53.106 --> 00:30:58.346 <v Speaker0>I would rather go for the founders because if they do have advantages, 00:30:58.346 --> 00:31:01.906 <v Speaker0>also the investors who invest in them have advantages, right? 00:31:03.086 --> 00:31:07.986 <v Speaker1>So I cannot tell exactly about the US scenery, but what I would say is that 00:31:07.986 --> 00:31:13.846 <v Speaker1>probably the founders in the US will get money more easily. but then they have 00:31:13.846 --> 00:31:16.326 <v Speaker1>to deliver more on KPIs more quickly. 00:31:16.846 --> 00:31:24.326 <v Speaker1>And when you're in Europe, probably founders who have more of a longer time 00:31:24.326 --> 00:31:30.486 <v Speaker1>until they will reach results probably have a bigger chance of doing this with 00:31:30.486 --> 00:31:34.986 <v Speaker1>German investors and European investors, so business agents especially, 00:31:35.426 --> 00:31:42.906 <v Speaker1>than in the U.S., I think, because we're not so hard results-driven as most of the U.S. 00:31:43.566 --> 00:31:48.086 <v Speaker1>Investors I've talked to so far, but there might be others also in the U.S. 00:31:49.466 --> 00:31:54.766 <v Speaker1>So maybe some more disruptive innovations, which take a bit longer, 00:31:55.166 --> 00:32:02.846 <v Speaker1>can emerge in Europe more easily because the founders will not have so much 00:32:02.846 --> 00:32:05.186 <v Speaker1>pressure to get results quickly. 00:32:06.986 --> 00:32:12.226 <v Speaker0>I see. Before we go into a very small ad break, I was wondering, 00:32:12.386 --> 00:32:18.486 <v Speaker0>how do you manage to run Casablanca plus all the companies, all the startup investments you have? 00:32:19.086 --> 00:32:24.386 <v Speaker1>The secret is people. So you have to have the right team. You have to have the right people. 00:32:24.646 --> 00:32:27.846 <v Speaker1>And I'm very happy about my PA, Wenke. 00:32:28.926 --> 00:32:36.486 <v Speaker1>Also very happy about the other people in the team who actually manage a lot on their own. 00:32:37.546 --> 00:32:41.226 <v Speaker1>And I don't have to say okay to everything before they do it. 00:32:41.386 --> 00:32:47.166 <v Speaker1>They just do it and ask for forgiveness rather than for permission before. 00:32:47.746 --> 00:32:51.706 <v Speaker1>And normally everything's right. And, of course, in Casablanca I have a COO 00:32:51.706 --> 00:32:57.766 <v Speaker1>who runs the daily business and he's also an experienced entrepreneur. 00:32:57.966 --> 00:33:01.446 <v Speaker1>So this is his third company. He was also at Accenture. 00:33:01.806 --> 00:33:09.366 <v Speaker1>And so it's Marcus Vollmer. He also was a CEO of some other German smaller companies, 00:33:09.366 --> 00:33:11.686 <v Speaker1>which were not startups. 00:33:11.906 --> 00:33:13.966 <v Speaker1>So he knows how normal business runs. 00:33:14.406 --> 00:33:22.146 <v Speaker1>And so I have a very experienced person at my side, and he's running everything 00:33:22.146 --> 00:33:24.966 <v Speaker1>in sales and normal daily business in Catablanca. 00:33:25.406 --> 00:33:29.546 <v Speaker1>And the same is true for Omicron Data Solutions. I have Albert there, 00:33:29.726 --> 00:33:35.846 <v Speaker1>who is also very experienced and a great operative Geschäftsführer. 00:33:36.966 --> 00:33:42.746 <v Speaker0>CEO. Okay. We'll be back after a small ad break. 00:33:49.555 --> 00:33:52.215 <v Speaker0>Gerring, thank you for staying with us, guys. 00:33:52.455 --> 00:33:56.035 <v Speaker0>We're talking with Carsten Krauss, Business Angel of the year 2024, 00:33:56.615 --> 00:34:00.575 <v Speaker0>current Business Angel, because the award is only the award ceremony. 00:34:00.575 --> 00:34:03.415 <v Speaker0>It takes only place in late fall. 00:34:03.675 --> 00:34:05.895 <v Speaker0>So he's the current Business Angel. 00:34:07.535 --> 00:34:12.035 <v Speaker0>Talking about this winning Business Angel of the year 2024 is a huge honor. 00:34:12.395 --> 00:34:15.215 <v Speaker0>What does this award mean to you? 00:34:16.375 --> 00:34:20.135 <v Speaker1>I was quite astonished when I finally got it. So in the beginning, 00:34:20.195 --> 00:34:24.655 <v Speaker1>I thought, yes, I'm doing very well and probably I have a good chance. 00:34:24.875 --> 00:34:28.555 <v Speaker1>So like 30% or so. And then I saw who got into the short list. 00:34:28.995 --> 00:34:32.295 <v Speaker1>And out of, I think, 83, they selected seven. 00:34:32.535 --> 00:34:35.515 <v Speaker1>I was one of them. And the others were so great. 00:34:35.695 --> 00:34:40.475 <v Speaker1>So one of them had 75 investments and so on. And then I thought my chances are 00:34:40.475 --> 00:34:42.315 <v Speaker1>like below 10% to get elected. 00:34:42.895 --> 00:34:47.595 <v Speaker1>And when they finally, I didn't hear anything before. 00:34:47.595 --> 00:34:54.875 <v Speaker1>It was on the event, and when they finally called my name, I was really so shocked 00:34:54.875 --> 00:35:01.355 <v Speaker1>and astonished, and so it somehow resonated with me so deeply. 00:35:01.555 --> 00:35:05.035 <v Speaker1>Wow, I got this with these great people around me. 00:35:05.255 --> 00:35:11.155 <v Speaker1>So, yeah, so I felt very, very happy. And now what does it mean? 00:35:11.995 --> 00:35:16.535 <v Speaker1>So for one thing, it means that we get even more startup inquiries, of course. 00:35:18.075 --> 00:35:22.175 <v Speaker1>And not all of them have really read what I do. 00:35:22.435 --> 00:35:27.655 <v Speaker1>So I'm focusing on AI, I'm focusing on technology, and some people just say 00:35:27.655 --> 00:35:31.915 <v Speaker1>I'm addressing the business age of the year and I don't care what he does. 00:35:32.135 --> 00:35:36.375 <v Speaker1>I just send out my pitch deck and so on. 00:35:37.215 --> 00:35:42.295 <v Speaker1>So some of them do their research quite well before they address me, but some don't. 00:35:42.715 --> 00:35:47.675 <v Speaker1>So that's one thing. Then, um, then there is some, there was some interest from, 00:35:47.675 --> 00:35:50.355 <v Speaker1>from, um, Format's press podcast. 00:35:50.555 --> 00:35:53.835 <v Speaker1>I think you also came through, through, uh, Bandnet Network. 00:35:54.075 --> 00:35:59.275 <v Speaker1>Um, but actually, uh, because I'm a well-known AI expert in Germany already, 00:35:59.655 --> 00:36:02.495 <v Speaker1>uh, I was in the press, uh, anyway. 00:36:02.815 --> 00:36:07.975 <v Speaker1>So it's not nothing new that suddenly, uh, erupted and I was not prepared to, 00:36:08.055 --> 00:36:09.195 <v Speaker1>to give interviews or so. 00:36:09.315 --> 00:36:11.915 <v Speaker1>So I was in Süddeutsche Zeitung, FHZ, uh, 00:36:12.943 --> 00:36:22.283 <v Speaker1>many other formats, four times on TV last year for AI topics and so in general, 00:36:22.443 --> 00:36:27.043 <v Speaker1>it was not a new thing for me to get press inquiries, but suddenly from a new 00:36:27.043 --> 00:36:30.963 <v Speaker1>side because before people did not interview me on the topic of investment, 00:36:31.143 --> 00:36:34.443 <v Speaker1>but rather on the topic of what is AI going to change in our world. 00:36:35.083 --> 00:36:38.503 <v Speaker0>I've read through why, by the way, 00:36:38.603 --> 00:36:44.163 <v Speaker0>we need to point out again that you get only into the group to be nominated 00:36:44.163 --> 00:36:50.103 <v Speaker0>as Business Angel of the Year because the startups you are investing in recommend you. 00:36:50.403 --> 00:36:50.643 <v Speaker1>Yes. 00:36:51.703 --> 00:36:56.923 <v Speaker0>Yes. And you got the award you were recognized for, I quote, 00:36:57.083 --> 00:36:58.763 <v Speaker0>building bridges between startups. 00:36:59.123 --> 00:37:02.363 <v Speaker0>What is your approach of network and collaboration there? 00:37:03.043 --> 00:37:06.463 <v Speaker1>Yes. So, I mean, as a business angel, what can I do for the startups? 00:37:06.463 --> 00:37:11.403 <v Speaker1>So I can give them money, yes, but money is not everything a startup needs. 00:37:11.403 --> 00:37:12.943 <v Speaker1>Very often they also need advice. 00:37:13.163 --> 00:37:19.583 <v Speaker1>But also I think interchanging ideas between startups and good practices between 00:37:19.583 --> 00:37:22.003 <v Speaker1>the startups and so on, that's also very helpful. 00:37:22.223 --> 00:37:27.223 <v Speaker1>And we do this actively. So we meet with startups online, we bring them together. 00:37:27.363 --> 00:37:32.183 <v Speaker1>We also have done some forms like do AI together, 00:37:32.483 --> 00:37:36.043 <v Speaker1>exchange your knowledge on AI, exchange your experience, 00:37:36.283 --> 00:37:39.023 <v Speaker1>maybe also exchange some code and some 00:37:39.023 --> 00:37:42.523 <v Speaker1>other things together and also we have a format called 00:37:42.523 --> 00:37:46.263 <v Speaker1>the Startup Future Days which takes 00:37:46.263 --> 00:37:51.603 <v Speaker1>place once a year in summer and we invite 00:37:51.603 --> 00:37:58.943 <v Speaker1>all startups so we pay the general hospitality except for their own travel and 00:37:58.943 --> 00:38:07.783 <v Speaker1>so we have a conference room and pay all that and invite some guests and so 00:38:07.783 --> 00:38:09.863 <v Speaker1>And so we bring all the startups together, 00:38:10.183 --> 00:38:14.943 <v Speaker1>the C-level, and they do, we start with a bar camp format. 00:38:15.283 --> 00:38:18.363 <v Speaker1>So that means people can spontaneously say, 00:38:18.523 --> 00:38:24.223 <v Speaker1>I could tell something on this best practice I have, or I want to discuss with 00:38:24.223 --> 00:38:29.023 <v Speaker1>other people on the topic of how to get good talents or whatever, 00:38:29.143 --> 00:38:31.143 <v Speaker1>so many typical startup things. 00:38:32.543 --> 00:38:37.743 <v Speaker1>And the second day we have prepared workshops. So, somebody from the startups 00:38:37.743 --> 00:38:42.843 <v Speaker1>prepares a workshop which is then going on for four hours. 00:38:44.901 --> 00:38:51.141 <v Speaker1>And because that's prepared, there's a lot of theory, theoretical knowledge 00:38:51.141 --> 00:38:57.841 <v Speaker1>and so on they can convey or they have prepared practice. 00:38:57.841 --> 00:39:05.481 <v Speaker1>So you have to do something, some tasks, you have to work on your own to do something and so on. 00:39:05.761 --> 00:39:12.181 <v Speaker1>And my startups actually value this very, very positively every time we do it. 00:39:13.441 --> 00:39:17.101 <v Speaker1>And I have not heard of any other business agents who does this. 00:39:17.441 --> 00:39:24.781 <v Speaker1>It's quite an investment also in time not only in money but I think this is 00:39:24.781 --> 00:39:26.901 <v Speaker1>something that really brings the startups forward. 00:39:28.501 --> 00:39:35.261 <v Speaker0>Talking about bringing the startups forward, you often help startups to optimize their AI models. 00:39:35.501 --> 00:39:38.401 <v Speaker0>I was wondering how hands-on are you? 00:39:38.501 --> 00:39:43.921 <v Speaker0>Are you sitting in front of the desk together with one of the senior developers, 00:39:43.961 --> 00:39:48.261 <v Speaker0>I say, ah, do it like this, do it like this, like on the vertical screens. 00:39:48.421 --> 00:39:50.561 <v Speaker1>Like background. 00:39:50.821 --> 00:39:52.001 <v Speaker0>That's what I had in mind there. 00:39:52.861 --> 00:39:58.021 <v Speaker1>So the last time I programmed myself is about five years ago before the pandemic. 00:39:58.461 --> 00:40:04.641 <v Speaker1>So I'm not as practical as you now described, but last year I actually went 00:40:04.641 --> 00:40:12.701 <v Speaker1>into some details and we built a a new kind of loss function for one of the models. 00:40:13.441 --> 00:40:16.181 <v Speaker1>And I was deeply involved in that. And I think, 00:40:16.401 --> 00:40:19.521 <v Speaker1>so, I mean, 00:40:19.641 --> 00:40:23.801 <v Speaker1>this sounds like a bit bragging, but I'm quite sure it would not have worked 00:40:23.801 --> 00:40:31.821 <v Speaker1>by far as well as when I joined and helped them improve that. So sometimes I go deep. 00:40:34.461 --> 00:40:39.461 <v Speaker1>Sometimes I do go deep. I normally don't, I have not coded for a few years. 00:40:40.441 --> 00:40:47.181 <v Speaker0>It ain't bragging if it's true. You are an AI specialist. So I was curious, 00:40:47.441 --> 00:40:52.441 <v Speaker0>how will AI impact startup investing in the next five to 10 years? 00:40:52.841 --> 00:40:56.561 <v Speaker0>Will AI start picking winning startups? 00:40:56.961 --> 00:40:58.981 <v Speaker0>And will this be a reinforcing circle? 00:40:59.501 --> 00:41:06.841 <v Speaker1>Yes, it definitely will. So already right now, a lot of professional investors, 00:41:06.981 --> 00:41:10.801 <v Speaker1>so funds who invest with other people's money, 00:41:11.061 --> 00:41:18.601 <v Speaker1>are already using AI tools to scan the market, to discover potential startups for their deal flow 00:41:19.501 --> 00:41:22.621 <v Speaker1>so that they don't have to wait for those startups applying, 00:41:22.801 --> 00:41:29.481 <v Speaker1>but rather can go actively and tell them, oh, we're interested in investing, so please tell us more. 00:41:31.209 --> 00:41:36.869 <v Speaker1>And this is already happening right now. Also, for selecting out of the deal 00:41:36.869 --> 00:41:41.329 <v Speaker1>flow coming in who is interesting and who is not so interesting, 00:41:42.009 --> 00:41:45.229 <v Speaker1>I'm not the only one who has built own AI for that. 00:41:45.729 --> 00:41:52.229 <v Speaker1>As far as I know, there are no tools who do everything yet. 00:41:52.669 --> 00:42:00.449 <v Speaker1>There are some tools who we have taken a closer look at the frequent angel circle in Bund. 00:42:00.449 --> 00:42:08.329 <v Speaker1>We've taken a closer look at some tools who promised to help you invest better 00:42:08.329 --> 00:42:13.609 <v Speaker1>and select the good ones from the bad ones. 00:42:15.189 --> 00:42:22.089 <v Speaker1>But the tools were actually producing a lot of paper or non-physical paper, 00:42:22.529 --> 00:42:25.889 <v Speaker1>long PDFs with so many research items 00:42:25.889 --> 00:42:29.169 <v Speaker1>and did not really help invest rather 00:42:29.169 --> 00:42:35.209 <v Speaker1>help justify investments once you had decided because if some investor and LP 00:42:35.209 --> 00:42:40.869 <v Speaker1>in a fund asks you why did you invest there then you can send them the 75 page 00:42:40.869 --> 00:42:47.629 <v Speaker1>rationale in the PDF and the the LP will probably not go through all the details 00:42:50.924 --> 00:42:55.764 <v Speaker0>I'm very confident he will have an AI to give him five bullet points out of that. 00:42:57.064 --> 00:43:00.644 <v Speaker1>So definitely we will do it better. So with the things we are doing, 00:43:01.024 --> 00:43:04.684 <v Speaker1>we are already doing it better because our AI helps us decide. 00:43:04.844 --> 00:43:11.224 <v Speaker1>Some other investors have also built their own tools to help them decide rather 00:43:11.224 --> 00:43:14.124 <v Speaker1>than produce a lot of PDF paper. 00:43:14.124 --> 00:43:21.024 <v Speaker0>What is one area of the German startup ecosystem that needs some major change 00:43:21.024 --> 00:43:23.484 <v Speaker0>to stay competitive globally? 00:43:23.964 --> 00:43:27.104 <v Speaker1>So there are several things which need to change in Europe. 00:43:27.564 --> 00:43:31.204 <v Speaker1>So for one thing, the AI Act has to be reduced. 00:43:31.544 --> 00:43:36.824 <v Speaker1>And currently, I'm not so confident that this is going to happen because it's 00:43:36.824 --> 00:43:42.104 <v Speaker1>not because of the startups, because startups can adapt to bad conditions as 00:43:42.104 --> 00:43:43.264 <v Speaker1>well as to good conditions. 00:43:44.924 --> 00:43:50.584 <v Speaker1>The problem is that if people are afraid of using AI because they might violate 00:43:50.584 --> 00:43:55.024 <v Speaker1>the AI Act and might get punished, and I see this a lot in the Mittelstands, 00:43:55.024 --> 00:43:58.084 <v Speaker1>so the mid-sized German companies which are very important in Germany, 00:43:58.444 --> 00:44:03.784 <v Speaker1>that they are very insecure what they are allowed to use and what they're not allowed to use. 00:44:06.264 --> 00:44:11.064 <v Speaker1>And so the market breaks away. People are reluctant to use AI. 00:44:11.664 --> 00:44:16.264 <v Speaker1>They are afraid to use AI, partly because of this AI act, partly also because 00:44:16.264 --> 00:44:17.324 <v Speaker1>they don't understand it. 00:44:17.824 --> 00:44:25.324 <v Speaker1>But even if you get them educated, the AI act still is not precise and very 00:44:25.324 --> 00:44:29.524 <v Speaker1>difficult and is subject to be extended very easily. 00:44:30.404 --> 00:44:36.824 <v Speaker1>And we need to get rid of this threat of what we call it, the Democles sword, 00:44:37.164 --> 00:44:39.304 <v Speaker1>so the sword that's above the head. 00:44:41.704 --> 00:44:49.184 <v Speaker1>In order to also get the market better in Europe for buying AI tools. 00:44:52.939 --> 00:45:02.339 <v Speaker0>And given the current political situation that we are likely to see a new government in pretty soon, 00:45:02.499 --> 00:45:09.439 <v Speaker0>what role do government policies play in making Germany more or less attractive for startups? 00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:14.819 <v Speaker1>I think it does play a big role for several reasons, actually. 00:45:15.319 --> 00:45:21.319 <v Speaker1>So I'm not so much a friend of state financing everything. 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:29.059 <v Speaker1>But if you hinder it by the state, that also does not stand for a good ecosystem. 00:45:29.779 --> 00:45:33.199 <v Speaker1>So in Germany, we need to get down with a lot of bureaucracy. 00:45:33.839 --> 00:45:43.059 <v Speaker1>And when I started my first company, I think I remember that we had to do the VAT only once per year. 00:45:44.299 --> 00:45:49.639 <v Speaker1>And now as a new founded startup, you have to do it every month. 00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:51.559 <v Speaker1>You have to do the VAT calculation. 00:45:52.659 --> 00:45:58.779 <v Speaker1>And the VAT tax and so on. So that has had to be done for some 00:45:59.783 --> 00:46:01.343 <v Speaker1>Fraud or so that had happened. 00:46:03.983 --> 00:46:10.983 <v Speaker1>But so it would be much better if like when you just declare that you are still negative. 00:46:11.203 --> 00:46:15.803 <v Speaker1>So you're not making money or so. Then you maybe can just omit all the tax things. 00:46:16.103 --> 00:46:20.663 <v Speaker1>So you just say I declare by I vow. 00:46:20.883 --> 00:46:28.723 <v Speaker1>So if you could just say I vow that that we have no profits or even we have no revenues. 00:46:29.863 --> 00:46:34.843 <v Speaker1>And then you can just omit everything in the tax regulations. 00:46:34.843 --> 00:46:41.243 <v Speaker1>That would take a lot of pressure from new startups, so starting from the beginning. 00:46:41.763 --> 00:46:47.323 <v Speaker1>Because in the first time for Casablanca, it has taken like four years until 00:46:47.323 --> 00:46:51.343 <v Speaker1>we had the first revenues. And we're far away from profits right now. 00:46:51.503 --> 00:46:57.463 <v Speaker1>So, of course, this is an exponential curve. So, I hope that soon we will be 00:46:57.463 --> 00:47:03.363 <v Speaker1>very profitable. But for the first years, we had to develop, 00:47:03.503 --> 00:47:04.483 <v Speaker1>develop, develop, develop. 00:47:04.863 --> 00:47:11.183 <v Speaker1>And then we also had a lot of paperwork to do. And that's not so nice. 00:47:11.783 --> 00:47:15.883 <v Speaker1>You want to focus on your innovation. You don't want to focus on paperwork. 00:47:18.143 --> 00:47:21.943 <v Speaker1>And Germany is very difficult. So when you start a company, it takes like six 00:47:21.943 --> 00:47:24.143 <v Speaker1>weeks until you can start the company officially. 00:47:25.323 --> 00:47:26.663 <v Speaker1>So a limited company. 00:47:28.103 --> 00:47:32.623 <v Speaker1>And I think politics can do a lot of good for the startup ecosystem by just 00:47:32.623 --> 00:47:34.943 <v Speaker1>reducing all these obstacles. 00:47:37.083 --> 00:47:38.443 <v Speaker0>They can. 00:47:40.443 --> 00:47:44.783 <v Speaker0>I like to have you as a guest because you're known for making bold predictions. 00:47:45.323 --> 00:47:53.503 <v Speaker0>What's one thing about the startup world in 2030 that only a few people are seeing coming? 00:47:55.147 --> 00:47:57.127 <v Speaker1>Yes, the start-up world in 2030. 00:48:00.707 --> 00:48:08.367 <v Speaker1>So I think what few people see coming is that probably the economy will change a lot until 2030. 00:48:08.787 --> 00:48:17.007 <v Speaker1>So I fear that the German car industry will go down by 50% until then. 00:48:17.767 --> 00:48:23.727 <v Speaker1>So I hope that I'm completely wrong, but it might happen. and the car industry 00:48:23.727 --> 00:48:25.247 <v Speaker1>is so central for Germany. 00:48:25.507 --> 00:48:30.347 <v Speaker1>So what will happen is that we have many people who are unemployed at that time. 00:48:31.347 --> 00:48:36.467 <v Speaker1>And if we continue to just say, okay, if you're unemployed, the state will care 00:48:36.467 --> 00:48:42.567 <v Speaker1>for everything, then we will not get power into the startup ecosystem. 00:48:42.767 --> 00:48:48.827 <v Speaker1>But if the state rules change and you really, for one thing, 00:48:48.907 --> 00:48:52.907 <v Speaker1>empower the people to start a company, on the other hand, and also drive them 00:48:52.907 --> 00:48:55.447 <v Speaker1>to take up either work or start a company, 00:48:55.687 --> 00:49:00.107 <v Speaker1>then maybe we will have a lot more founders because they're very talented engineers and other people 00:49:00.707 --> 00:49:06.267 <v Speaker1>who will suddenly be out of business in their big companies. 00:49:06.627 --> 00:49:10.467 <v Speaker1>And I have seen an engineer of... 00:49:12.449 --> 00:49:20.429 <v Speaker1>48 or so, leave his company and start a new manufacturing company for glasses. 00:49:20.889 --> 00:49:25.289 <v Speaker1>So he had some idea on how to improve that. He was in that industry before, 00:49:25.309 --> 00:49:27.549 <v Speaker1>and he's quite successful with that. 00:49:27.889 --> 00:49:33.709 <v Speaker1>And also the startup I told you about before where I had the exit within 18 00:49:33.709 --> 00:49:38.869 <v Speaker1>months was also founded by two people who were at the end of their 50s. 00:49:38.969 --> 00:49:40.609 <v Speaker1>So now they're both over 60. 00:49:41.729 --> 00:49:45.789 <v Speaker1>And who had left their traditional careers actually a few years ago, 00:49:46.089 --> 00:49:48.929 <v Speaker1>built another startup, and then started this one. 00:49:49.529 --> 00:49:56.789 <v Speaker1>But so it's not that startups can only be started by 18-year-olds or 25-year-olds 00:49:56.789 --> 00:49:59.969 <v Speaker1>who just left university or so. That's not necessary. 00:50:00.369 --> 00:50:03.569 <v Speaker1>Also, older people can be very innovative and very inventive. 00:50:03.669 --> 00:50:08.069 <v Speaker1>And we will get all this knowledge from the engineers coming into the startup world in a few years. 00:50:10.129 --> 00:50:14.889 <v Speaker0>I've once heard that statistically speaking, the most successful entrepreneurs 00:50:14.889 --> 00:50:16.689 <v Speaker0>found the company with 45. 00:50:17.409 --> 00:50:23.589 <v Speaker0>By the way, what came to me, most people listening to this already speak German. 00:50:23.769 --> 00:50:27.149 <v Speaker0>They speak three to four languages. But for everybody who wants to practice 00:50:27.149 --> 00:50:32.229 <v Speaker0>German, the monthly VAT filing you were referring to is called Umsatzsteuer 00:50:32.229 --> 00:50:33.689 <v Speaker0>Voranmeldung. One word. 00:50:36.229 --> 00:50:39.989 <v Speaker1>Yes. Yeah. So the German words, yes, very bad. 00:50:41.189 --> 00:50:48.529 <v Speaker0>Oh, don't worry. We only have two more questions left. So you are a mentor and invest in AI startups. 00:50:48.909 --> 00:50:54.169 <v Speaker0>If you were to start a fund today, what would its focus be? 00:50:54.709 --> 00:50:56.669 <v Speaker1>If I would start a startup now? 00:50:57.029 --> 00:50:58.909 <v Speaker0>A fund, a VC fund. 00:51:04.230 --> 00:51:05.470 <v Speaker1>I should have prepared that one. 00:51:08.870 --> 00:51:11.670 <v Speaker1>There were so many questions. I prepared some, but most I didn't. 00:51:12.030 --> 00:51:18.370 <v Speaker1>So anyway, so if I were to start a startup fund, what would I do? 00:51:18.990 --> 00:51:26.210 <v Speaker1>So I think what I would do is I would try to spot the – I would use – so if 00:51:26.210 --> 00:51:27.630 <v Speaker1>I would start a startup fund now, 00:51:27.670 --> 00:51:33.030 <v Speaker1>I would use a lot of AI and I would use a lot of data because in a fund, 00:51:33.030 --> 00:51:35.250 <v Speaker1>you always have to justify also what you're doing. 00:51:36.370 --> 00:51:40.310 <v Speaker1>And because you're working with other people's money, currently I'm just investing my own money. 00:51:41.290 --> 00:51:44.670 <v Speaker1>So gut feeding is not so good for a startup fund. 00:51:45.090 --> 00:51:49.850 <v Speaker1>So what would I do? I would use a lot of AI. I would try to get hold of many 00:51:49.850 --> 00:51:55.490 <v Speaker1>startup stories and analyze them and see how the market shifts and changes. 00:51:55.810 --> 00:52:01.870 <v Speaker1>So which startups get good valuations at the next stages over time and how this changes. 00:52:01.870 --> 00:52:08.990 <v Speaker1>And then I would also try to identify which business angels benefit the companies, 00:52:08.990 --> 00:52:14.810 <v Speaker1>and I would try to get into startups they invested in, 00:52:15.310 --> 00:52:20.550 <v Speaker1>or try to get them on board also if I'm investing. 00:52:20.970 --> 00:52:25.870 <v Speaker1>Because when I started my first company, if we had had a business angel, 00:52:25.970 --> 00:52:29.190 <v Speaker1>we would have avoided so many mistakes. 00:52:29.910 --> 00:52:32.950 <v Speaker1>It's not just because of the money, but we did so many things wrong, 00:52:32.970 --> 00:52:37.270 <v Speaker1>like not having a proper packaging for our first product, for example, 00:52:37.550 --> 00:52:42.170 <v Speaker1>which was sold also in stores and so on. 00:52:42.310 --> 00:52:49.250 <v Speaker1>So there are so many things which we can learn from an experienced business person. 00:52:50.450 --> 00:52:55.010 <v Speaker1>So I would probably take the business answers more into account than I have 00:52:55.010 --> 00:52:56.970 <v Speaker1>the impression the current startup funds do. 00:52:59.790 --> 00:53:06.570 <v Speaker0>To close this interview, and by the way, we will ask you where all the startups can pitch you. 00:53:06.970 --> 00:53:12.930 <v Speaker0>I was wondering, startup founders often chase VC funding without considering other options. 00:53:13.670 --> 00:53:16.730 <v Speaker0>When should they not raise VC money? 00:53:19.910 --> 00:53:28.310 <v Speaker1>So I think that people go for money because they think money is the most important part of a startup. 00:53:28.510 --> 00:53:33.750 <v Speaker1>But I think it's if you get the wrong investor in too soon. 00:53:34.955 --> 00:53:38.075 <v Speaker1>They can destroy your company because they 00:53:38.075 --> 00:53:41.055 <v Speaker1>so I think you have 00:53:41.055 --> 00:53:44.175 <v Speaker1>to be wise in selecting the investor so so you 00:53:44.175 --> 00:53:47.295 <v Speaker1>should not take seed seed funding from somebody 00:53:47.295 --> 00:53:50.355 <v Speaker1>who is not helping you but just 00:53:50.355 --> 00:53:53.555 <v Speaker1>pushing you in in their direction and 00:53:53.555 --> 00:53:56.395 <v Speaker1>you don't like this direction or you don't you're 00:53:56.395 --> 00:53:59.055 <v Speaker1>not convinced also you shouldn't do that at the 00:53:59.055 --> 00:54:02.435 <v Speaker1>startup founder um uh what 00:54:02.435 --> 00:54:06.415 <v Speaker1>else um so i 00:54:06.415 --> 00:54:09.395 <v Speaker1>think you should do some part of 00:54:09.395 --> 00:54:14.335 <v Speaker1>your innovation before you go out for money there are some people who seek money 00:54:14.335 --> 00:54:22.155 <v Speaker1>when they have just an idea um and um so of course if you have worked for Or 00:54:22.155 --> 00:54:28.055 <v Speaker1>as a whatever CEO or a co-founder or something in a well-running company before, 00:54:28.375 --> 00:54:32.135 <v Speaker1>then you can probably get a lot of money already very early. 00:54:35.335 --> 00:54:41.175 <v Speaker1>Also when you work for Google or something before, then you probably also will get some money early. 00:54:43.935 --> 00:54:50.415 <v Speaker1>So but if you try to get money, whatever it takes, then it takes a lot. 00:54:50.415 --> 00:54:57.975 <v Speaker1>So, and you have to make many concessions with some people who are just investing 00:54:57.975 --> 00:55:00.895 <v Speaker1>early at their high risk actually also, 00:55:01.215 --> 00:55:06.875 <v Speaker1>but then they will take a lot of shares from you at a low valuation. 00:55:07.215 --> 00:55:12.155 <v Speaker1>And for some founders, that's maybe not so necessary to secure this so early. 00:55:12.315 --> 00:55:19.675 <v Speaker1>But generally, people rather take up an investor too late than too early. 00:55:19.675 --> 00:55:21.955 <v Speaker1>So in FactFinder, I bootstrapped FactFinder. 00:55:24.235 --> 00:55:28.915 <v Speaker1>And in 2007, 2008, 2009, we had over 40% growth. 00:55:30.238 --> 00:55:36.338 <v Speaker1>And while we were still 5% to 10% EBIT positive, not EBITDA, EBIT positive. 00:55:36.658 --> 00:55:41.378 <v Speaker1>So we were making real money and also cash flow positive. 00:55:42.978 --> 00:55:47.158 <v Speaker1>And we were growing over 40% and investors were coming and asking, 00:55:47.338 --> 00:55:50.658 <v Speaker1>so can we invest, can we put some money on the table? 00:55:51.238 --> 00:55:53.098 <v Speaker1>And I did not do it because I 00:55:53.098 --> 00:55:59.858 <v Speaker1>thought, well, 42% to 47% growth rate is already so huge If we grow more, 00:56:00.078 --> 00:56:07.218 <v Speaker1>probably the company will do wrong or bad things because we cannot control all the growth. 00:56:08.218 --> 00:56:13.438 <v Speaker1>But I think I made a mistake because if I had taken some money at that time, 00:56:13.658 --> 00:56:18.598 <v Speaker1>probably we would have done the international expansion much faster and maybe much better. 00:56:19.918 --> 00:56:27.578 <v Speaker1>And in the end, so I'm not allowed to tell the exact amount we had for FactFinder, 00:56:27.578 --> 00:56:30.478 <v Speaker1>what it was, let's say, a middle double-digit million, 00:56:30.818 --> 00:56:36.138 <v Speaker1>and Deca, our U.S. 00:56:36.218 --> 00:56:42.758 <v Speaker1>Competitor, sold for $1 billion to Oracle, and even though the founder, 00:56:43.118 --> 00:56:48.858 <v Speaker1>Steve Papa, only had a minority share at that time, 00:56:49.098 --> 00:56:53.498 <v Speaker1>he still definitely had more than 10%, 00:56:53.498 --> 00:56:56.258 <v Speaker1>and that means he definitely made more than 00:56:56.258 --> 00:56:59.118 <v Speaker1>a hundred million for that so probably it would have been better to 00:56:59.118 --> 00:57:01.978 <v Speaker1>uh just to the international expansion especially to 00:57:01.978 --> 00:57:06.798 <v Speaker1>the us with investors money and also maybe with some investors guidance so choose 00:57:06.798 --> 00:57:13.458 <v Speaker1>the investor well but do not say i don't need money i don't need investors uh 00:57:13.458 --> 00:57:20.658 <v Speaker1>if you actually should or do need them you know to do the next step to do the next real growth step. 00:57:22.318 --> 00:57:28.638 <v Speaker0>Karsten, thank you. Thank you very much for answering for two interviews, 00:57:28.938 --> 00:57:32.498 <v Speaker0>taking up two evenings of your vacation. 00:57:32.738 --> 00:57:35.598 <v Speaker0>Thank you very much. Greatly appreciate it. Hope to have you back soon. 00:57:36.278 --> 00:57:37.458 <v Speaker1>Thank you very much. 00:57:42.038 --> 00:57:49.798 <v Speaker0>That's all, folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at WWW.STUK.COM. 00:57:49.680 --> 00:58:07.381 <v Music>